091: How Shifts In Perspective Can Transform Learning And Leadership with Thom Stecher

What if the biggest lever for healthier schools is how we view people and problems? I sit down with veteran educator and consultant Thom Stecher to unpack how a shift in perspective can transform classroom climate, leadership choices, and our well-being. From the first moments, we trace a clear arc: perception shapes understanding, understanding unlocks empathy, and empathy fuels compassionate action. And that sequence lives inside every SEL competency.

Thom shares personal stories that bring both-and thinking to life, showing how grief and gratitude can coexist and how that nuance matters for students and staff navigating complex emotions. We dig into responsible decision-making as the cumulative outcome of self-awareness, self-management, social awareness, and relationship skills, then get practical: using a mindful pause to interrupt reactivity, spotting absolutist language that signals stuck thinking, and replacing it with I-statements that restore agency. We also explore cognitive empathy versus affective empathy and why honoring different truths in a classroom builds respect without demanding conversion.

Curiosity gets its due as the engine of empathy and innovation, raising a tough question for schools: Do we actually want curiosity if it refuses to be compliant? Drawing on the original meaning of educare (to draw out), we offer strategies to elevate student voice, invite multiple perspectives, and design learning that values people over mere performance.

If you’re ready to trade either-or for both-and, to ground big goals in human connection, and to build a culture where perspective leads to wiser choices, this conversation will give you language, tools, and courage to start. 

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What’s one place you’ll add a mindful pause this week?

EPISODE RESOURCES:

• Connect with Thom Stecher via his website or Facebook.
• Order his book, Social Emotional Learning - One Day at a Time

Transcript

Meet Tom Stecker & People-Centered Schools

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome to season five of SEL in EDU. This is a space for educators who believe social emotional learning isn't an add-on. It's part of how we teach, lead, and show up every day. I'm Dr. Krista Lay, and in each episode, we'll explore real stories, practical strategies, and the human side of learning that helps schools grow with intention. Perspective is a powerful thing. It shapes how we interpret student behavior, how we respond to challenges, and how we decide what truly matters in education. Sometimes a small shift in how we see a situation can completely change how we support the people in front of us. In today's episode, I'm joined by Tom Stecker, an educator and consultant who has spent more than 40 years helping schools step back and reconsider their lens. As one of the original developers of the nationally recognized student assistance program model, Tom has worked with students, educators, administrators, and school boards across the country, always returning to one central belief that education works best when we keep people at the center. Our conversation explores how perspective influences school culture, decision making, and the balance between academic outcomes and human connection. Tom reminds us that when we shift how we see students and staff, we often shift what becomes possible for them.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

I grish that.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Hello, Tom. I'm so excited that we have a chance to record because we're calling these couple episodes SEL in EDU to be continued. We had this amazing conversation a couple weeks ago and it would have been great for the podcast. So we're circling back around again and talking about perception, possibilities, and purpose.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

15 years ago, I was asked by an assistant superintendent in a school district, would you do a keynote for us? I said, sure, happy to do that. Back to school kind of thing, motivational. And I said, What would you like the topic to be? He said, Well, do anything you want. It's wonderfully empowering and really challenging. Most of my thoughts were around wellness of the staff. However, driving to the event that early morning, this idea comes to me. The voice in my head says, talk about perspective, possibilities, purpose, and passion. The rest of the drive, I'm formulating what I'm going to say. You know that I always arrive places early. I get there early and I'm jotting down notes in the parking lot, little scribbles. And that's what I went with, and it was wonderful. I kept working with that, and that brings us to today.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

We're going to start with perspective and what that means. And I realized in my notes that I wrote perception, but they are similar.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

They're the same root word.

Perspective Across SEL Competencies

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Perspective is one of the skills under social awareness. And I think it's important to think about we can also have perspective on ourselves. So I do think it can be under self-awareness as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

If we have a strong perspective and the ability to take perspective, we're able to achieve.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

So many things begin with perception. Perspective leads to um understanding, leads to empathy, leads to compassion. When you say that perspective is part of social awareness, correct?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Absolutely. Our perspective is our worldview. How do I see this diverse uh society that I live in, this world society? That's critically important. Self-awareness. I need to have a perspective on myself. You do work on yourself every day. I do work on myself every day. Most of the books I read, the first series of notes I make are about me. What's the author saying to me so that I can grow and learn more? Every morning I do many things in my meditation practice, but one of the things I do, I read a passage from the Enneagram every day about my type and what I need to do today to be the best version of myself. I think perspective goes all the way to responsible decision making.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Tell me more about that one.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

So responsible decision making, as I drill down into that, it's about making choices. To make a healthy choice, I have to have a balanced, healthy perspective.

unknown 5:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

And so many of my role models have taught me that. I think we probably could dig deep enough, and I'll ask our listeners to think about this. Maybe perspective is a part of every competency in social emotional learning.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

I also feel that whole responsible decision-making category. While I understand its purpose, it's a complex set of skills that really deserve their own time to be broken down into micro moves. We have the skills under the other competencies. I feel like here's the skill, and then what are you doing with it?

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Yeah.

From Perception To Choice And Outcomes

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Where responsible decision making comes in. One of the pieces that really hit me as I was looking at it is that our experiences, our emotions, our beliefs shape how we perceive the world. Our perception is how we make meaning of information coming down and how we interpret it. It reminds me similarly to when we look at emotions, that your emotions are innate things that come up in your body, but your feelings are how you interpret those emotions. Social emotional learning gives you that space between the innate and those experiences and the interpretation.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Frankel talks about that. Stephen Covey talks about that. It's that one ten thousandth of a second from some event, some experience, to how am I expressing my feelings? What am I sharing? I have this emotion, it's probably bodily. There's a feeling aspect. Now what do I do with that? That's where choice comes in. Stimulus response. One of my favorite formulas is events plus response equals the outcome, which is from Jack Canfield. One of the things that's always interested me with responsible decision making. I think it's a cumulative thing. So self-awareness, we have to start there. And that moves us to self-management, then social awareness and relationship skills. Relationship skills deeper dig under social awareness, really making a vulnerable, more intimate, trusting commitment. I cannot be a good responsible decision maker with some level of awareness and expertise in the previous four. Think our world right now is abundant with poor, responsible decision makers.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Because they're lacking those critical foundational skills.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Exactly. Self-management, self-awareness is not there. People lack of caring for each other, social awareness. So that's always kind of moved me, that idea.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

When you were talking about leaders, that linked to something I had not considered before in some of the research, how does lack of perspective influence our behaviors? And that could be a good or a bad thing, but the two pieces that came up that really intrigued me was Harold Web's work around a growth mindset.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

If our perspective, how we interpret a challenge based on what's happened in the past or how we see effort that we put forward as either being failure or growth. Our past experiences, if how we look at things, our perspective is either, and there's a bit of hope in here. If I do this, here's what's possible. And that's why we're going to talk about possibilities in the next one. My past experience shapes my perspective that I don't have agency.

Foundations Of Responsible Decisions

SPEAKER_00 8:45

You mentioned two things that really resonate with me. The first is hope. Please, let's come back to that. I think it's important. And there's a lot of people writing and researching around hope right now. The other piece are these limiting beliefs. We always have a choice. In the worst possible situations in our life, we have a choice. That brings me back to Han Selyer's work with stress management and the whole stress cycle. We have this thing happens, you know, blank happens. The first step is my assessment of that. I saw it in my own children growing up. I had one child who the X could happen, and it would be a major emotional event. And I had another child, the same exact thing could happen, and no reaction at all. So our assessment, we have so much power in that. Folks are not aware, and I honor and respect everybody who's gone through challenge. As you know, the greatest challenge of my life has been the death of our daughter. And in that moment of saying our final goodbye, coupled with the tremendous grief, there's also this transformational experience, this spiritual experience, this one with the universe experience. I don't share that often, but Susan Kane's book, Bittersweet, really sums it up beautifully. There's an assessment. Who do I want to be right now? What do I want to do right now? Do I want to blame and lash out? No. I don't. To honor my daughter, who was not that kind of person. She was unconditional love. So I want to emulate that. Those choice moments in our life. I would love people to dig deeper and explore how important and powerful those choice moments are. They happen all the time.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

And I think in hearing what you're sharing, thank you for sharing that moment where both things were happening at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

There was grief and something bigger.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Our choice can be to accept both at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Krista, what you're sharing right now, I think, is critically important. We actually are more innately both and than we are either or. The either-or comes from societal structuring that has been imposed upon us. We need to reclaim that both and. We see the both and in the innocent child all the time. Both feelings are expressed. Society tries to box us.

Mindset, Limits, And Hope

SPEAKER_01 11:59

So you bring up an interesting piece about complex emotions and how they're uncomfortable. Oftentimes in schools, we're talking about building emotional literacy with our students, having them move beyond those core five innate emotions, and exploring the beauty that is the feelings, which often combines those emotions together. I'm wondering if some of that is because we're not comfortable sitting in those more complex emotions, and it's easier to just pick something that's more I'm mad, I'm sad, instead of exploring that further, because perspective taking does ask that you go beyond what you're comfortable with, what you feel you already know.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Yep. That moment where we take a breath, where we pause, you're really talking about mindfulness. Mindfulness is not only sitting on my floor meditating. Mindfulness is taking those moments, taking that pause and say, wait a minute. And I don't have to act, I don't have to respond. It's okay to sit with this. We're applauded to drive, drive, drive. Wait a minute. Human being, not human doing. I just need to be here for a little while. So many of the great teachers have talked about that. We don't always have to do something.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

It's easier to walk away from a computer. You feel a pressure to respond right away, but that's us putting that on ourselves. I need a couple minutes to rethink this or to have a pause and collect my thoughts. It hits on something else around people's willingness to change, the flexibility, the adaptability based on perception. If they feel that their identity is being threatened in some way, they're not seeing here's an alternative strategy or here's a different path. They're hearing what I'm doing isn't good enough.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

So much in there. The idea of educators through professional development helping their students understand the things we're talking about right now. That's growth. As we grow and change, our perception expands, which is something that both of us love. You know, that's why we keep reading, that's why we keep researching. And every interaction we have, there's an opportunity. That brings us to the whole social awareness piece. You are a traveler, you and your husband love to travel. That has been proven to expand our perception, to expand our social awareness, respect for life, and developing empathy.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Oh, so yeah, I'm so glad you brought up empathy because a book called Stoic Empathy talks about two different types of empathy. She describes it as cognitive empathy and affective empathy.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Okay.

Both-And Thinking Amid Grief

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Affective empathy is the compassion, the acting on something. And she describes cognitive empathy as the logic behind it. Like you understand why somebody's doing something. And she actually says, is perspective taking. So I know you and I have done lots of research around empathy and different people's perspectives at logical empathy. Maybe you're not feeling, but you can understand why they're feeling that way or why they're doing what they're doing.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Fascinating. You mentioned understanding twice. There's helping our students understand, and first the adults in PD, this idea of perception, it's not a hard and fast this equals this. It's a continuum. Our perception leads us to understanding. As that understanding develops, my empathy expands. And then, of course, where we take action, there's compassion. I'm pretty sure in Brene Brown's newest book, she mentions those two concepts: the cognitive empathy and the affective empathy. That was new to me. Cognitive empathy is understanding.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Yes. It's seeing somebody else's viewpoint.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Or the idea that they have a different viewpoint that's valid. Sometimes I might not understand where somebody's coming from, but I understand that's their truth. And I'm okay with it because mine is different.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Think about how empowering that statement is when we bring it as a lesson to our students. This person over here and this student over here, we have different perspectives. Let's talk about that. Let's really help each other see what that is, to at least come to that place of cognitive empathy. Then, if there's an affected empathy, that's kind of like ice cream on the cake.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

That goes back to your point about in the classroom within a learning experience, we're making space for the both and in discussions, in conversations. Oftentimes it seems that we feel we need to get somebody to change their mind to get perspective. I don't think somebody has to change their mind to have perspective. And maybe that needs to be a goal for our learning experiences, for our classrooms, for our workshops, that there is space for both.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

That's transformational education. If we can have our friends who are listening now talk to each other, talk to you and I about that possibility. I really think it's transformation. These are relatively new ideas to bring into the classroom. Where we're speaking here, I'm seeing the opposing forces. And there's a beautiful few lines by Rumi, one of my favorite poets. Out beyond doing and wrongdoing, there's a field. I'll meet you there. That's honoring both places. And finding that middle ground, you know, very Buddhist concept. I'll find that middle ground. I don't have to agree with you. I just need to live with you.

Emotional Literacy And Complexity

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Yes. It reminds me of a conversation I had with my sister a couple weeks ago. She's like, here's why I think this, here's why. And I'm like, I get it. I do. But I would not have done the same thing. I live in a different path. I'm not saying that I just can't get behind your path, but I understand all the experiences, the emotions, your lived history until that point. Yeah. And mine brought me somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

It is okay for both parties. And can we honor that? If that brought your sister a level of health, a level of joy, a level of comfort with who she is, great. Perfect. What you're talking about now brings me to one of the latter prompts. You asked, what signals tell you someone's perception is limiting rather than expanding then? It's our health. Our bodies and minds and our emotions have been proven to be interconnected. There is no separate. So I'm checking my health. I'm checking the basics, blood pressure, heart rate. Are they in that nice healthy range? If they're not, there's a clue. Something's going on. My perception, my attitude leads to this larger world view. And the questions are simple. Am I happy with my life? Am I happy with myself?

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

At this point in my life, my answer is yes, and I'm so grateful. It just brings on more good. I'm full of joy because I've done this work. I continue to do this work because it never ends. I like that. That makes me happy that it never ends.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

And you brought up gratitude, which is a skill within social awareness, making more of this network of connections. And I think the health part, you're spot on. And I love that you started there because I immediately go to the thinking process and behaviors. I don't always think about the health part, but then that's how sometimes we need to listen because that's where it's manifested. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

When people have this language that's well, it never goes this way, or everybody thinks this. And as soon as somebody speaks in this absolutist language, I'm like covering for something, like you have a perspective, you're holding on to feeling the same way. It goes back to the idea they don't have a choice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

When folks in my world make those big global statements, that turns me off as well. However, I remember my really great teachers and therapists back in my 20s. If I would make a statement like that, or in a group therapy session, someone else would make a statement like that, they would simply say, turn that into an I statement, please.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Oh, I love that response.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

There it is. Boom. There's the responsibility. And I really can't act. Responsible decision making. I cannot act until I've gone through all these previous competencies.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

When we use that type of language, we're actually cutting away part of the validity of what you're sharing. And you might have had a really good point.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

I think that kind of language. Which disempowers us.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Share more about that.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

When I talk in generalities, I'm not owning anything. I think I am disempowering myself. Ownership is power. I don't mean power over, I mean to be empowered.

Mindfulness And The Power Of Pause

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Let's go back to this idea of hope because your friend of mine researches hope, Nico Salmatolides. The piece that resonated with me that he talks about with hope is that there's power and willpower. Do you see a path? Do you see that there are options? Do you believe in yourself and your ability to go down that path? Do you believe if you don't, you're not empowering yourself. You're not giving yourself that sense of efficacy that you can be successful.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

So these are new concepts to me. Way power, that's the vision. That's what I see. That's my possible choice or choices. And then the willpower is the movement, the action.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

So I'm heading down door number two, whatever it might be. I like that. I like that alone.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

That's the easiest way that I could summarize the research that he read and shares. And he goes into it way deeper than I can. We don't just add hope that there's pieces that come into play. Part of that, I think, is perspective taking. You have a certain self-perception. You can see where other people are coming from and what other pathways are available to you. And that's the possibilities we're going to talk about.

Identity Threats And Change Readiness

SPEAKER_00 23:34

So I want to dig more into this hope idea because I'm finding it in the newer books and the newer research I'm reading now. The only time I ever heard anybody talk about hope was in church, Faith, Hope, and Charity or Love, Hope, and Charity, something like that. I'm so glad it's coming up as almost a new concept. My perception of myself is I am a hopeful person. Hope is made up of my perception, my past experiences, my beliefs, what has formed my identity, my track record in life, good, bad, indifferent, the whole map of me. It comes down to choice again. It comes down to every day. I choose to be hopeful. Why did I, a 73-year-old man, wake up at six o'clock this morning? I'm going to swim a mile and a half and do strength training for another hour, along with my meditation and yoga. I've told Sadra, if she ever sees me just sitting around doing nothing, that means I'm in trouble. So please speak up and kick me in the butt.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Well, and so that goes back to what happens when someone's perception is limiting. For you, that's a sign for you that you're not up. It would be interesting for people to think about their own signs. And let's link that to Brene Brown talks about her value system. It's not just what does it look like when you're living in your values, but what does it look like when you're slipping is a core piece of self-awareness that this is what it looks like when I'm not feeling hopeful. I'm losing perspective.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

In her book, Dare to Lead, she digs deeply into values and provides the reader with a tool to narrow down our top three. She goes further by asking us, what are examples in my life where we're living in those values? And what are examples in life where we're not? And I think she actually uses the word slippery slope. I'm going to ask our listeners to think about that for a moment. What is that slippery slope? For me, it's making excuses, particularly around the food I eat. It's the holidays, it's only a few days, and then before I know it, I've slipped back into those unhealthy eating habits that eventually got me into open heart surgery. The great news for me is I know a possible negative end result of those choices. Knowing that helps me to make that shift of time. No more excuses. I'm always on track with the exercise, but I can easily fall down the slippery slope around what I eat.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

I love that you were able to put that into a specific example. I think I'm still working on that.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

That's actually two different theories coming together because there's a behavior theory that says you have to change your behavior and then see the outcomes to change your mindset. But SEL comes from like a social cognitive theory that's more change the way you think and your beliefs will change your actions. And they can work hand in hand.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

I'll start with it. This cognitive piece that needs to change. Let's put the plan in place. Your friend's vision, way powers, create the way power, create the path, and then make a choice and go down. Or behavior first, 12-step programs around for 70 plus years, fake it till you make it. Just practice a new behavior until it becomes part of who you are.

Cognitive Vs Affective Empathy

SPEAKER_01 27:33

I wonder if people tend to lean towards something. I know for myself, I need to generally change my thinking before I'll change my action. I'm more in my head and I need to reason something out. And I also think that I'm able to take perspective more easily than some other people can. But I wonder how many of our listeners can be like, you know, I'm definitely needing to change my behavior first.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Head first or behavior first. I think my current perception of myself is my head gets me in trouble. It rationalizes and minimizes, and there's this internal battle. I'm more at a place in my life where, okay, change that behavior, Tom. Let's go. Let's just do that. This is a beautiful example for our listeners of both and it's not either or whatever works for you.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

And so that takes us back to this idea of perception how we always have a choice. Yeah. Want people to know too that sometimes we're in a situation, yes, sucks. This is awful.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

It doesn't feel like we have a choice. And we might not see that right away, but it is there. It's a different shift in perception, or it could be a small action, a small change in behavior.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

That accumulates over time.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

And when I think about our students, you can take a survey that tells you your hope level.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Do you need to work on your willpower or your way power? And our students sometimes might have the willpower, but they don't see the way. This links back to research from the Search Institute around developmental relationships.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

A huge piece of it is that adults are helping students see all the possibilities that could change their perspective about school, about behavior, about other people.

Classroom Space For Many Truths

SPEAKER_00 29:48

I go right back to Victor Frankel's life. He talked about, you know, three concentration camps in World War II, last one being Auschwitz. And yet he found this moment where he stopped asking himself, what did he need to get? Did he need to grab somebody's boots who had just died? Was there another piece of bread somewhere? He changed to asking himself, what's needed of me right now? What does the world need from me right now? He tells us in his book, Man's Search for Meaning, that saved his life. That attitudinal shift from me to let me find out what's needed of me. How can I give? How can I serve? He enhanced the lives of many people in Auschwitz. The choices he makes, he says the last of all human freedom is to choose one's response. There he is talking about that ultimate choice point. That's where all our freedom lies. The only moment we have is now. If I'm living in the future, I'm creating anxiety for myself. If I'm living in the past, I'm probably creating guilt or depression or some other nasty thing that's not good for me. At 73, I'm still working on living in the now. And yet, that's our most powerful place to live.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

While you were talking, it was reminding me of two core memories and never experienced anything to the level that Victor Frankel did.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

We have known each other for 20 years now. I'm pretty sure I was 27. And I remember two times where I was in your basement sobbing and at the life skills conference, totally broken down. And it was a why is this happening to me? Feeling like I didn't have choices, like what did I do to have this happen? A shift for me started when I started thinking, what can I learn from this? What can I take away? How can I use this as a stepping point?

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

One of the pieces that kept coming up as I was looking at perspective is the idea of curiosity. When you're able to be open to perspectives, it allows you to continually be curious and ask questions, be reflective, and not shut off.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Thank you for sharing that experience with me. I do remember that what's important is the choice you made that brought you to a healthy place. Then you bring up this favorite word of mine, curiosity. I'm married to the most curious being in the world. She's always asking how things work or what's this or what's that. We also know that along with travel, curiosity is an aspect of developing empathy. How can I be empathetic cognitively or emotionally with you if I'm not at least curious? Nothing would register, I would just go all with my day. Curiosity is critically important to responsible decision making, to innovation, to relationship building, to systems. It's so important. Curiosity is essential.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

This idea of curiosity killed the cat. There's a lot of squashing curiosity. Oh, sometimes what we do in schools when we want compliance, yet we want critical and creative thinkers. And so it's hard to teach students to be more open to taking perspectives if we're also pushing back on curiosity. Those two skills are related and it's up to us as facilitating that learning space, whether it's us with teachers and staff or staff with students to lean into curiosity and be open to perspectives.

Health Signals And Limiting Language

SPEAKER_00 34:13

So if I had a relationship with the staff where there was a trust level, I would ask them what you're asking right now: do we really want curiosity and creativity? Uh hopefully the answer is yes. Because curiosity and creativity are messy. They're not compliant. Think of some of the greatest curious creative people in the history. I go right to Da Vinci. Absolutely not compliant, always moving on to the next, the next. Wouldn't he be a handful in school right now? Yes, I understand that there are places for compliance. I get it. Inappropriate behaviors and inappropriate behavior. But we're talking about this thing called learning. I don't know about compliance and learning. I don't think they fit together.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

And asking those questions and exploring that path can lead us in new directions we had an experience. When we shut that off, we're shutting down the learning, we're shutting down opportunities to grow in perspective.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

I like to go back to the original definition of the word education. The Latin word for education is educare, and it literally means to draw out. Education is not shoving information in, education is drawing out that curiosity, drawing out that creativity, drawing all those social skills and emotional skills out of that child.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

That requires a perspective that says we can learn from the students.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

From us.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Yes. That's what I mean. So we do student voice days, and I know you do student work as well. If I'm going into a high school, I'm their age of their grandfather. But I tell them I want to learn from them. This is an opportunity. Not many people in their 70s have a chance to sit down with teenagers all day long and listen to them. It's a wonderful, uplifting experience. Absolutely. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Some of the pieces that have been jumping out at me that I need to continue to think about is that perspective requires us to have a both and mentality and not just a thought process, but actually live that, actually make that come to life in our workshops, in our classrooms, in our schools. Thinking about do we lead with a behavior change or a thought change? Leaning into curiosity and knowing that we do have choices, no matter how big or small they might be.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Yes. And all the choices are powerful. They all lead to learning.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Sometimes we think that our actions, our thought or our behavior isn't going to take us anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

The takeaway for me is the hope path your friend talked about.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Way power and way power.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

That's really important for our students. I would pass it on directly as your friend has identified it and help people explore both of those avenues. What a great learning experience that would be.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Well, I think that's a great segue into our second talk together. What was your takeaway around perspectives that you were hoping they were going to walk away with?

Hope: Waypower And Willpower

SPEAKER_00 37:39

What I hope people come to is more of a middle ground rather than us and them. I like this idea from Stephen Covey. He says private victories always precede public victories. The work I'm doing inside, the perceptual work of who am I inside always precedes something positive outside. If I want to change a situation, thinking about our students in conflict, thinking about our teachers. And if I want to change myself, I need to change my perception. So it comes right back to that core again.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

That's powerful because that's within our control.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

The hope is that we might be able to influence people in a very positive way with that shift in ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

We'll know by how we feel, by our own health.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

Your next shift was talking about possibilities.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

How does a shift in perspective open up new possibilities?

SPEAKER_00 38:43

The idea of possibilities came to me through our daughter Ashley. Medically, she was identified as severely, profoundly retarded. I know we don't use those terms anymore. However, that's when I heard when my beautiful little girl was assessed at two and a half months old. My perception was she's beautiful, she's completely trusting. I came to learn day after day that I was in the presence of unconditional love, and that never changed about her 39 years. So my perception was okay, I've got this diagnosis over here, that's real. I need to deal with that. She's helping me be a better human. Everyone around her says how they feel better around her. So there's the both, and that's where I started. Oh, so what's possible for all of our learners? What's possible for that non-reader? What's possible for that child who has mathematical difficulties? What's possible for that child who looks different? What's possible for that child who doesn't know our language yet? I think possibilities, and I know we're going to explore it in depth, continues us down this both and road.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Love how this has evolved.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

We started off with just following your gut when you're in the car, about to walk in and do a keyboard in front of hundreds of people, and you're like, I think I need to change this to the four P's. And we had a couple of guiding questions in a lot of different directions and uncovered more. I'll be interested when we're done to see what those themes are and if this both and follows us into some of the other pieces as well.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Excited about that.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

I'm excited to hear more about Ashley when we talk about possibilities.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yeah. Oh, wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

And thinking about how we can open up possibilities not only for ourselves and our own learning, but for our students as well.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Thanks for this time together.

Head First Or Behavior First

SPEAKER_01 41:06

The special episodes we had here with Tom and I talking are called SEL and EDU. We're gonna take a pause and reflect on what we've learned here and take that into our next conversation. So until then, everyone, take care of yourself. Think about how you're living in the boat. And thank you, Tom.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Thank you for being part of the