Fear and shame are the primary emotions used to control people and when so much of SA culture is built around these emotions, breaking out of it can leave many of us with more than a few scars. Nisha is Gujurati and her parents immigrated from Uganda and her fiancé Dev's parents are from Haiti. As always, many of our cultural backgrounds have more in common than some people think but making our families see that can be a different kind of hurtle. They share both their perspectives, advice, and experiences on this weeks episode!
00:05:50 Similar Values in Cross-Cultural Relationships
00:14:02 South Asians in Uganda and Exodus
00:18:53 Navigating Cultural Differences in Relationships
00:31:52 Navigating Family Disapproval and Finding Support
00:48:21 Overcoming Fear and Choosing Happiness
00:52:56 Navigating Fear and Control in Relationships
01:04:32 Solid Relationship and Creating Happiness
BWWPS Book Club Form share your thoughts on what we're reading!
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DishaMazepa.com
SHOP: Disha Mazepa Designs on Etsy Code FESTIVE6 (buy 5 get 1 free)
Be sure to SUBSCRIBE & LEAVE US A REVIEW if you enjoyed the show.
Follow me on Instagram @Disha.Mazepa
Like the show on FB here.
Music by: Crexwell
Episodes available on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcast, Stitcher, and Overcast.
Fear and shame are the primary emotions used to control people and when so much of SA culture is built around these emotions, breaking out of it can leave many of us with more than a few scars. Nisha is Gujurati and her parents immigrated from Uganda and her fiancé Dev's parents are from Haiti. As always, many of our cultural backgrounds have more in common than some people think but making our families see that can be a different kind of hurtle. They share both their perspectives, advice, and experiences on this weeks episode!
00:05:50 Similar Values in Cross-Cultural Relationships
00:14:02 South Asians in Uganda and Exodus
00:18:53 Navigating Cultural Differences in Relationships
00:31:52 Navigating Family Disapproval and Finding Support
00:48:21 Overcoming Fear and Choosing Happiness
00:52:56 Navigating Fear and Control in Relationships
01:04:32 Solid Relationship and Creating Happiness
BWWPS Book Club Form share your thoughts on what we're reading!
BWWPS Guest Application
Anonymous Suggestion/Request Box
DishaMazepa.com
SHOP: Disha Mazepa Designs on Etsy Code FESTIVE6 (buy 5 get 1 free)
Be sure to SUBSCRIBE & LEAVE US A REVIEW if you enjoyed the show.
Follow me on Instagram @Disha.Mazepa
Like the show on FB here.
Music by: Crexwell
Episodes available on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcast, Stitcher, and Overcast.
Hi everyone, welcome back to. But what Will People Say? I'm your host, disha Mazeppa, and this is a South Asian Insuraisal, relationship and Lifestyle podcast. Welcome back for another episode. Welcome back, everybody.
Speaker 1:It's Thanksgiving next week so I will not be here and we're not going to have a new episode. So just a heads up. I hope you guys spend it with the people who feel like home. I know the holidays, like Diwali and Thanksgiving and Christmas and Hanukkah and all of them, can feel a little overwhelming, especially when some of us have some complicated family situations and might even feel like imposters celebrating our own cultural holidays. I know, sometimes with Diwali and things, I can feel like I don't really know what I'm doing, but it's supposed to be my holiday and there's just a lot of feelings. Either way, I hope you spend it with whoever feels like home, whether it is family, found family or just some incredible people who bring a smile to your face.
Speaker 1:Happy Thanksgiving, and let's get to today's episode my guests. This week I have two of them, arneisha and Dev, and they both joined us, which is nice because we get two perspectives here on the show and both people's experiences. I know a bunch of you who tune in are significant others or in-laws and family members of the brown girl or boy going through like all of this. So this might be an episode where you can feel like there's someone who is going through the other half of the situation. She's Kajrati, but her parents immigrated from Uganda and Dev is Haitian. So, both coming from immigrant families, they share all the feelings, all the thoughts. We're still kind of going through it, so haven't come out on the other end yet. So definitely for those of you who are really in it, this is your episode and just really great words of advice. So, without further ado, here's Nisha and Dev.
Speaker 1:All right, Hi everybody welcome back to the show. We're here with Nisha and Dev. They are both joining us. Welcome to the show, guys. Thank you, thank you for having us. We're excited to have you. We don't always get to have both people in the relationship on, so it's always nice to hear both perspectives at the same time. But tell us a little bit about who you are.
Speaker 3:Well, my name is Nisha. I'm from the Northeast, I am Bajrati American, but I would also like to add that my parents are immigrants and we they had immigrated from Uganda, so that's something really important to me, because that's a diaspora of Indians that I grew as I grew up, I hadn't heard a lot about, and so I wanted to just share that here too.
Speaker 2:And my name is Dev. I'm also from the Northeast. My parents are also immigrants. They immigrated from Haiti over to here some odd years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome, I love that you mentioned that your parents immigrated from Uganda, because we also have family friends and I have South Asian friends who their families are from parts of Africa, whether it's South Africa or Uganda or I think even Ghana, and like, like, I have friends that speak Swahili and it is it's like a part of, like you said, the diaspora that doesn't really get discussed and people forget that like they're like South Asians are all over the world for like various reasons that we could get into another day. But tell us a little bit about what, how that has sort of impacted your life and, like your, the way you were raised.
Speaker 3:Well, for me personally, my Bajrati was infused with some of the Swahili words and so I actually didn't come to realize that until I would start talking in Bajrati with some of my like friends who spoke Bajrati, or their family, and I'd say certain words and they'd be like what does that mean?
Speaker 3:And I'm like I didn't even know I was speaking a whole different language and so, just growing up like it was, I went to like a predominantly white suburban school and I was like a handful one in the handful of brown kids there.
Speaker 3:So, like anywhere in the Diaspora, there was like only five of us.
Speaker 3:And so I grew up with like a lot of pressure of like needing to do well academically, have like a very specific track that I was going to be on like a lawyer, doctor, engineer, accountant type of track.
Speaker 3:And what I do want to say also is like when I realized I didn't want to go down any of those tracks, I did have really supportive parents of like you know, helping me figure out like what are, or like being open to me, figuring out like what is my pathway, what isn't the journey I'm going to take, and they were really supportive as I was like transitioning from college to figure out, like in my early 20s, what my next steps would be for my career, and so all of that impacted me because I was, and I am, someone who's a little more on the reserve side, and so I grew up like having like a handful of friends that I was very close to that I'm still friends with today. They're some of my best friends and so they've always been with me throughout my life and helping me feel like I can be comfortable in myself. But that's something that I really struggled with growing up.
Speaker 1:Go on, dev, tell us about Haitian culture.
Speaker 2:When I met Nisha and we just were discussing our upbringings, I was like, wow, we it. I could have been raised in your home. Of course, the faith was different and some of there were a lot of nuances, but a lot of those ideals and significance, especially with growing up, were present, such as those same tracks that Nisha mentioned that her family expected from her. My family did as well with me and included nurse. So, growing up on my side of the Northeast, I was very supported with my culture because there were a lot of people around me from other Caribbean islands, including Haiti, that were just blending in with each other and there were also overlapping cultures that existed.
Speaker 2:I grew up mainly going to private school with a religious background.
Speaker 2:With that private school and because of that, I went to school with a mix of different individuals. There were some white, white people, some Southeast Asians, caribbean, and there were even South Asians from India also in my school. So it was quite a peculiar experience just growing with all of these different cultures, including my own, because my and I'm sure you both might have heard this I would go to my mom and be like hey, mom, this kid gets to do that. Why can't I get to do it and she'd be like, unless you're living in their house, then you could do that, but under this roof you're doing what I tell you to do. And one funny thing about Haitian culture is that there are the it's this phrase, that they're the three, and like this specific letter, but to translate in English, it's school, church and your home, and those are the three things that really matter to your life. Anything else outside of that, that's outside of that, but those three things are very significant and that is what you should be focused on while you're growing up.
Speaker 3:Yep, that sounds like most brown people's houses, so I was going to say, when I was learning about him and his culture and also like how he grew up, I saw a lot of similarities and I was resonating with a lot of what his mom was saying to him of like you can't go to this person's house, you can't sleep over this person's house like really vetting out, like specific people, like who he would interact with, and I was like that happened to me too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was no concept of sleeping over at all, maybe until I was in college. That was when I was beginning to feel brave, to be like, hey, could I sleep over in X, y and Z song. But other than that, those shutdowns and growing up with that like no, you had to pick and choose the battles and like the events and all of these different choices to make when presenting to your parents something that was outside of the culture, so it when we started speaking and sharing our household experiences. It was incredibly beautiful how we are from two, or our families are from two, sides of the world, but they had very similar values instilled into us growing up.
Speaker 3:And I think that's like really important to say because in our experience of what, of how my parents reacted when I told them about him, their reaction and I've heard similar reactions from other Brown families of like, when someone is with someone who is not necessarily from the same religion, the same culture, their markers as well is like this idea of like their values are different, and one of the stark things that I really noticed is that we have pretty similar values but then also, like even within those values, we have different, like perspectives within them, and so we're able to actually grow in those values together in a very different way than what I was even imagining, what could be possible. And so, like that's just to say, like these values that we had found so common with us, my parents had expressed that they were very apprehensive about our relationship and not supportive of it, because one of the major reasons being different values and that was that is a myth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just want to share this. Even down to our pantries, they are very similar, like I had beans, I had rice, I had cloves, I had pulbi, I had just like Nisha and I barely had different spices or different foods in our pantries when we would cook. So it's like the similarities were so incredibly aligned. And this aspect of values, from someone who may be a different shade of brown of you, you start to learn how aligned you are once you have more conversations and just get the opportunity to learn about them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. I think it always comes down to we always say on the show like most people, as long as they have the same values, they can pretty much make it work. When we're raised in households where it's like only our people have this and most immigrant communities it's the same, it's like only our culture has these values and everyone else is a disaster, and it's like, obviously that is not true. But it's easy. When we're raised here and we're around lots of different people and we realize that just because we don't look the same doesn't mean we don't have things in common. But then we have parents who came from a world that is the polar opposite of that Right, where if you didn't look like me, you didn't have the same values, and your family can't possibly have the best interest of my child in their values Exactly. So I'm sure you guys were able to see how much you two have in common. But how did you make your family see that?
Speaker 3:So I understand wholeheartedly, like I mentioned in the beginning, that my parents are immigrants.
Speaker 3:They immigrated from Uganda and, if you know anything about that history, essentially it wasn't out of choice.
Speaker 3:They were essentially kicked out, and so I understand that that has like a lot of emotional trauma and mental trauma and physical trauma that has also like transpired because of the events from that and also like just with growing up, and so that is important for me to say because my parents are still trying to reconcile with it, or at least I think my mom is my dad and I just he had told me quite frankly like I'm going to erase you from my life, and that wasn't easy to hear.
Speaker 3:Actually, I have siblings and my siblings are very supportive of our relationship, of me specifically and the choices that I've made, knowing that you know Dev's a wonderful person and he's a great partner for me. And they also have conversations with my parents about pushing them to be open-minded and pushing their perspective and pushing their like global perspective as well, and at the same time, there is this tension that I have of like I understand why my parents think the way they think and I really do understand, like from what they've shared of their past, the conclusions that they've arrived to.
Speaker 1:So for the people who aren't listening, before we move forward with this, can you tell us a little bit about the history of South Asians in Uganda and probably in that part of Africa, because I don't think everyone listening probably knows.
Speaker 3:Yes, so during. I wouldn't remember the exact years, but I know it's after the 1960s, maybe the 1970s it was. But the president, the then president of Uganda, idi Amin, had essentially said that the Indians in Uganda had to leave, and there's like a lot of politics around that too, Like there's like a part of it of economics coming into play, like money. I understand it wholeheartedly, and at the end of the day, indians were asked to leave Uganda, and my parents were part of that group of people who were asked to leave, and so they were essentially refugees when they came to the UK.
Speaker 2:And just to add, it wasn't like a kind to ask, it was like a you have to leave, yeah.
Speaker 1:It was a forced exodus.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and it just wasn't. It just was not happening just at Uganda. It was also happening with the neighboring, some Kenyan communities and additional communities around Uganda at that time, who were unfortunately struck in under this new policy that was occurring within the country.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So for those of you listening who don't know about that, basically lots of parts of southern, the southern half of Africa as a continent, South Asians were forced out of the countries, basically by mostly dictators, and ended up in pretty much the UK, the majority of them, and over time have shifted over either to the US, Canada and also the Caribbean. There's a big South Asian influence in the Caribbean which I'm sure Dev you know. Were you ever kind of exposed to any of that?
Speaker 2:Myself or Anisha yeah.
Speaker 1:You're a self Dev.
Speaker 2:No, I was not Like. When I met Anisha, she told me a bit about it, I've heard about it, but I wasn't too familiar. And the community of Indian expats? Unfortunately, well, one of their stops were not Haiti in the same numbers. There, of course, are some Indian folk who were within Haiti, but there were different groups of individuals who migrated to Haiti from different countries that aren't Indian. So they're all over the place, yeah, but I know Jamaica and Trinidad for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Ghana, all of those spaces.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you were talking about kind of Anisha, your family dynamics. Where are we at? I guess, today, at this point, you guys have been together you said about five years in terms of your family and your parents, or is that where you are at the moment?
Speaker 3:That is where we are at the moment and just like so, my mom had reached out a few times under the guise of having a conversation and I say a guise of having a conversation because I would and I am still more than happy and open to have a conversation. And what has happened in the past with my mom, specifically when I've engaged in communication with her, it's been a monopoly of all her views, all her perspectives, how mine is wrong, how hers is the right one and how she has, of course and I know this right Like she has my best interest in mind and at the end of the day, I'm going to put myself, like, dig myself into a hole. And for my dad, he had very clearly texted me about a year ago saying that he was going to erase me from his life. We've had like a few family tragedies that have happened in between and family celebrations, and at each point there has been a consistency of needing to show face. And so he has, like maybe quickly given me a hug. When we did have a family tragedy in front of everyone or a celebration that we had in April, he didn't acknowledge me at all, but he also didn't do anything worse. So, like, still not great, but that's where we are currently. And I do want to add this extra context of like.
Speaker 3:When Dev and I got serious, I remember maybe like two and a half-ish years into our relationship, where I was like okay, like this is the person who I want to be with. And I came to that understanding and I was like I'm willing to fight for my choice of who I'm going to be with and like who I love and being with that person. And so I told my parents about him. They met him and he drove to the house and they met him. They said in Guadrati, like in the kitchen, thinking that I can't hear, like you have to tell her that this can't happen.
Speaker 3:And I was like, but you're so kind to him, to his face, so because and he didn't like obviously know that that's what they were saying in the kitchen but then when, as we were becoming more serious and I would talk about him on the phone to my family as well, and so it's like there was a continuous like his name was brought up, I was sharing that we went here or we did this, or we went to this museum, and so when we got engaged and dev can share a little more about this. He prior had reached out to my parents to tell them that he was going to propose to me. We got like I said yes. When he did propose, I told my parents and that's when I had posted it on social media. After I told them and my dad had messaged me shortly after was like you don't care about me and I'm erasing you from my life, and I've said it a few times in this conversation. I think I just need to say like clearly it still hurts me, but that is where we are today.
Speaker 2:And like. One thing that I always wanted to, or something that I've always understood, before I add is this difference of culture and how the outside might not reflect what's inside our home and like. Because I grew up in a Haitian household, I've experienced some of what Nisha has spoken about in different ways not in relationships exactly, but with like friends and whatnot. Up until a point and when I was younger, I was sharing this with Nisha. I was a lot more rebellious earlier and pushed the line very early about some of those ideas of culture, especially with my family, and I'm not sure how many other people have shared this. But when your family tells you like our culture doesn't do X, y and Z, the retort often becomes then why did you leave your country if you wanted it to be a certain type of way, because of the Americans we're all blending in?
Speaker 1:Absolutely so that's my parents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I saw, anyways. So, just with some of what Nisha was encountering, and even the Even how her parents would respond to certain things or ways that she would bring me up to them, I could tell, based on maybe some trauma of the past, that holding on to certain memories and cultures that have to do with this idea of what home is, and in this case, home is a Gujarat there, india. That's very important, especially when you haven't been there in so long. So I, of course, I was speaking with her brother just trying to figure out how we could transition into the conversation and like how to softly prepare them for me to share with them what's going to happen, and I've been planning this for like ever since I've met them.
Speaker 2:And her brother, who's like my best friend and someone I love dearly, he was having dialogue with them for two weeks prior to me calling to say that I'm proposing, and so, upon calling to say that I was proposing, I only got a mom on the phone and it was a very short conversation, and then, you know, the rest of this period in time happened and here we are today.
Speaker 2:So that's a bit of like my experience, especially just viewing and seeing what's going on and before I met them, the conversation was about you don't know how his people are. His people could be like X, y and Z and we're not like he could be an X, y and Z person. And then after meeting him, it was he's not a bad guy, he's just not Hindu. And it's like grabbing at straws because through our conversation, when I did come over to the house and I spoke to them for we were there for maybe two, three hours and I was just speaking, having conversation that had nothing to do with our relationship there were a lot of commonalities that and ideas that I was sharing. That did not suggest that I'm trying to do anything nefarious against Nisha and against you.
Speaker 1:So definitely that's where we are. But that's incredibly common where first we paint a picture of someone we've never met, based on stereotypes or our own misgivings about a group of people, and then you meet them and you're like it's a lot less scary, right, Because it's like oh, they're just a person and this person cares so much about my daughter and all he wants is the best for her. He's not trying to ruin her life. But then it's like now we need something else. Now we have to find something else.
Speaker 1:And it's tough because, like Nisha you mentioned, we understand where our parents came from, whatever trauma they experienced in their past, the way they were raised, the things our grandparents went through. But just because we understand what our parents went through doesn't mean we have to justify their behavior towards us when we decide to live our lives, Because it can be really hard, it can be really exhausting to sit there and be like I understand, I get where you're coming from. And then you feel bad because you're like but I'm still going to do what I want. And then you're like the brown girl, guilt is here and it can almost make like it doesn't make sense in your head, right, Because it's like you want to be understanding, but you're also not going to let that understanding stop you from like being with this person who clearly means so much to you. Exactly, and how, like kind of how have you, I guess, been able to work through a little bit of that, if at?
Speaker 3:all Therapy. I'll start there. Therapy has been really helpful. My therapist talked about like we were able to talk through like I feel anger, like that's the emotion I tend to feel the most and easier, and that has a lot to do with like the range of emotions that I was like able to express growing up as well, and so the anger she helped me uncover like what is underneath the anger, and I was coming to terms and understanding that and I still am going through stages of grief because it's like you know, I had mentioned earlier that my mom would want to have convert, like you know, a guys of conversation and I want that as well, and I still want that to the state with both my parents and to your point, while I understand where their perspectives are coming from and who they are as people and how much they do care for me, and there is like a limitation of what they're sharing, and so for me it became really important to put up boundaries, which is really hard to do as a brown girl and really hard to do to your parents especially, and for me at least.
Speaker 3:And when it came to putting boundaries, it was just consistently saying the same messaging over and over again, like I eventually would just keep on saying. Like when she would reach out and say, let's have a conversation, I'd say I want to have a conversation, I'd love to have a conversation with you. I'm more than open to just know that my family is dev, and as long as we can come to that understanding, I am more than happy to have a conversation with you. If there is no understanding that dev is part of my family, now I don't know what we can talk about, and so I don't think it's useful for us to talk at this point. However, I'd be more than happy to talk when you acknowledge dev, that he is also part of my family, and we haven't talked. So I think that says that when the boundaries are being upheld.
Speaker 3:But too, there isn't an acknowledgement yet of who dev is to me, and that's to me like not okay, because I think like yes, my parents came here as immigrants. They already like, compared to like where my grandparents grew up and how they grew up. My parents already grew up better than my grandparents. Fortunately, I'm growing up better than my parents, or I grew up better than my parents did. I have a different type of adult life than my parents did, and so I feel the sense of like, also responsibility, of I want to do better as this generation, to also find ways of human connectedness, that we're all not all different, and like we have differences, to be clear and those differences are beautiful and should be celebrated. And we have like this we're just not as like, far apart from each other as sometimes it may seem like we are.
Speaker 3:And I'm at the point where I'm like that's who I am and that's how I've always operated, even before dev, and I've always loved getting to know people that may not have been in the scope of people I grew up with and I like feeling connected to people and so it also helped.
Speaker 3:Like, yes, therapy, but also like really figuring out who I wanted to be as a human being and who I wanted to be as a person, and like making sure my actions are aligning to that and not saying that it was perfect, like there's still times my actions don't align to who I want to be and who I am, but also like giving myself grace in those moments because, to go back to what my therapist and I uncovered, under my anger, there is grief. I am going through the stages of grief and it's not linear. It's like sometimes I go back to anger, sometimes I go to deep sadness, like sometimes I'm all over the place, sometimes I'm all of them and so still navigating it. But I think at this point I'm just trying to feel my emotions, talk about them with the people I love and that I know support me wholeheartedly, reflect on them. I'm a huge journaler, so I write my journal and then, like, just try to do something different that's true to myself too by the end of the day and to get myself out of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's important that you pointed out like that you're going through this whole journey, because we are humans and us finding ourselves will always be a process, but that sometimes you do take a step back.
Speaker 1:Right, you're taking some steps forward and some days you just have to give yourself grace and fall back a little bit and then pick yourself up and keep going.
Speaker 1:And it's not going to be perfect every day. And the grief and the anger and I think a lot of us can relate to that, like the anger we have towards especially the way we grew up and the things we've then, as a result, been put through, especially for those of us who are partners who aren't South Asian that it's going to creep up in weird ways and it's going to creep up when you least expect it and suddenly you went from like I'm doing so great, we feel like an emotionally stable person today, and then the next minute you are absolutely losing your shit and that's okay. Yeah, like that's okay. But, dev, through all of this, it can't be easy to be the guy on the side having to sort of watch the person you love go through it and also to somehow feel like, not that it's your fault, but it can be hard to sit there and watch, like I know, even for my husband it was hard to sit and watch him watch this fallout happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and honestly, there is a bit of humor in all of this, of all of these ideas, and I'm going to tell you why. Before I could even share the idea with Nisha of being her partner and being in a relationship, asking her out, we had a phone call and this was like right at the beginning, and she was like hey, listen, whatever you think it's going to be like, with us coming together with our families being like kumbaya, that's not the case. It is going to be very tough. It's going to be something that will be hard for you to understand and my family most likely won't be able to see you in the way that I see you and she's. She's talking, and talking, and talking and at the end of everything she says, I'm like Nisha. Honestly, you forget.
Speaker 2:I come from a household and a family where many people in my family trailblazed in that way for us. My mom was not allowed to get married to my dad and my family was so against it and that created its own fallout. I have an aunt who is half Syrian who when her father, who's my uncle got married, or when, when she was before she was born, her mother and him were trying to make some form of relationship and her father her father, who's my aunt's grandfather took her away and kept her within the Syrian side of the family all the way up until her twenties, before she came to America and got to see her Haitian side of the family. So all of this was not unfamiliar with me and it it became interesting because it was as if I knew the basic recipe of what could happen. But there were different spices and this is how I'll explain it.
Speaker 2:Nisha then decides, between that time she told me and even up until now, to introduce me to Bollywood movies. And of course, in Bollywood movies it is no Cinderella ending seldom. A lot of times it could be, sometimes it's tragedy, but within the cusp of the film someone is not agreeing with someone, some family is not agreeing with this family, and so Nisha's putting me through these different bouts of three hour incredible Bollywood films to kind of soft launch what the reality could be. And let me tell you I probably was over prepared because I thought the second I would reach her parents doorsteps. It would be like a immediate no. Nisha gets exaggeratedly slapped across the face from Maddie slap.
Speaker 2:That's.
Speaker 1:That's what I thought it would be slow mo cameras zooming in on everyone 10 times.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Like every year, the slow tear coming down the cheek, but just one tear. So I'm thinking that is what could happen, but of course, the movies exaggerate some of the times. It exaggerates reality, and when the first thing that happened when we got to the door was I was offered tea and I was like what? And so what began to happen was this collapse of reality for me, despite the fact and where we are with our families, especially with the parents no-transcript Even with all of me being prepared and me understanding that this is really tough and to watch Nisha go through it, there's always a little piece of hope that I carry that there will be some reconciliation.
Speaker 2:I'm afraid of it because I have no clue what that would look like, but there's always that hope that helps me to feel more optimistic about these scenarios.
Speaker 2:And so just the fact that I thought all of these theatricals were going to happen upon meeting me, that did not happen.
Speaker 2:There is some string of hope or thread of hope that I every day grab towards in some form of reality where it will pass, and we're just experiencing this for the now, and that oftentimes comes out with Nisha sharing with me what she's going through and how she's feeling. At times I would listen, and then there will be other times where I'm like, hey, nisha, I think there will be a time where we will get back together, we will be at the same table and not with any type of friction, and I hope for that and I'm dreaming for this to happen, so much so that every family member I have met outside of her parents, who have opened their arms and accepted me in, builds a foundation towards this reality, that this quote of what will people say is not quite exactly true and the embracing that is happening without the parents right now will soon extend to the parents through the family, showing the extended family members, showing that this is okay.
Speaker 3:I think the other thing is I wanted to add is like there's been nothing, but supportive isn't even the right word, I don't even know what the word is because he's been more than supportive. I've had moments of frustration, of stubbornness, like I'll admit that I've been stubborn when I've seen communication from, like, my mom's the primary person who reaches out. So I know, like I know, that doesn't indicate my dad doesn't love me. It just means that my mom is the person who reaches out. That's just who she is.
Speaker 2:She's the spokesperson.
Speaker 3:Yes, and it's not atypical of my dad to not reach out. So all that to say, like when I'm being stubborn, like when I'm frustrated with my mom's responses or what she's like, what I consider like dumping on me, or like and I know for her it's just sharing motherly love, and so I understand it, and it still has that impact on me and I'm at a place that, like, after I've processed it, I've shared it with him and I'm being stubborn He'll tell me that and he'll be like would you be open to doing this? Would you be like you know, of course, like asking, like can he? Is this the moment to share his thought and perspective? And of course, like, yes, and then he'll ask or tell me, like you know, like maybe just trying this instead or being a little more open to talking about this. And so it's like my parents fear someone who's going to I say this like it sounds dramatic, but I do actually think they have this fear of like someone who's going to rip me away from them, when this person here is actually trying to rebuild and push me to rebuild specifically and being a space of like acknowledging what I'm feeling and also, like he said, have hope and have like the space, even if it's like a small little like part in my brain, of being open to having a conversation with them, and so it's like what they feared is someone so opposite.
Speaker 3:I don't know, like, if I had, if I didn't have, dev to counterbalance my stuff, my very like, I understand, like very appropriate I think it's appropriate stubbornness.
Speaker 3:If I didn't have someone like that, I don't know where our relationship would have been now.
Speaker 3:But what I do know is that I'm at a place of more openness because of him, and so I wanted to also say that as well, because, like, I think that speaks to the power of like just finding your person and like being so confident in your choice and like when I fought for my love of dev and I've been fighting for it and he's fighting it for me too, it's about him, but it's also making sure that, like, I'm fighting for my right to choose and right to be heard, right to live life how I choose, which I know is so foreign for my parents, and I know that's a foreign concept for my grandparents too, and so, generationally, I know that what I'm trying to do is very different and revolutionary depending on who you're asking and, at the same time, like I have someone who I'm so confident that I am like he's just amazing and so he didn't say all that. But I wanted to make sure that it was known that he's also someone who's just balancing my own stubbornness too, my own personal closed-mindedness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, I think I always try to give the partners where credit is due because, like you said, like dev has this optimism and it's funny because I think a lot of our partners do where they're like it'll be okay. It's just hard right now, but we're just going to leave the door open and maybe one day they'll figure it out. Like they just don't understand, my husband is always like your parents just grew up differently. They just don't get it. They'll figure it out in their own time.
Speaker 1:My husband by no means expects to be like my mom's best friend. They get along. He hangs out with my parents. He'll go over their house and have tea, but it's still very like formal, like right, like you sit at the dinner table, they bring you some chai and he like chit-chats with them while I like silently sit on the side grumbling because I hate being there and it's like you know.
Speaker 1:Whereas he's like such, like a chronic optimist, where like no, like they're doing so great and I'm like really Are they? But like it? You need that because I think like for them, it's like I love this person. I want them to have their family and their life and I'm not going to take any of it personally, right, but for us, like you said, it's not just fighting for this partner or this person. It's like my autonomy, my right to choose, my boundaries and my self-respect, and like the life that I want and being the person that I want.
Speaker 1:Like there's so much more at stake for us and so it feels like such a bigger threat when our parents try to like tear that away, because they're not just trying to like get rid of dev, right, it's like no, like we're deciding everything now. It's not just dev, it's everything. So like you almost need the like chronic optimism of someone who's like it's going to be all right, like one day we're going to figure it out, and like I'll be here no matter what. And sometimes I look at my husband and I'm like I don't get where you get this from. But, okay, I'm so glad at least one of us here isn't triggered every time their parent walks into the room.
Speaker 3:I think what makes it easier for me to honestly is his. I love his family. Like I love going to his mom's house. Like his sister is my sister, like there is no. Like I text her, I voice whatever, I call her, facetime her, whatever I share location, all of it. And so I, through this experience, have also. My family has just widened and so I think that's also so beautiful that I find so much joy in is like his family is my family.
Speaker 3:Like his mom knows I love when she makes her Haitian macaroni. Anyone else can make it, but I know when she didn't make it and she knows I'm going to ask her, like if she didn't make it, I'm going to say to her, like you didn't make it, and she's she used to ask me how do you know? I'm like you just know, and so all that to say. She like makes it and I know it takes her time and effort, but I know that like that's like how she also expresses love amongst a multitude of ways, but one of the ways is through food, and so that's just to say like I, I found another piece of my family, and so there is also that beauty that's also helping me and guiding me through this moment. But I also see like who Deb has behind him and I'm like this this is pretty Like I know they've had their trials and tribulations and I'm like this is a pretty beautiful thing to walk into too.
Speaker 2:I wanted to share some. I've shared this with Nisha sometimes, and I don't speak about it often, but I think this is a big reason why my optimism fuels this scenario. So, with my mom and my dad, of course, I shared that my grandparents did not approve of my father being with my mother, and my father's response to it came from fear. So it was fear meets fear two sides of fear. My grandparents had their conceptions, ideas and fears about him, and he then saw those fears as a threat to himself and so, as a result of that, my mom and him were well. He made the choice to cast over my mom, not to see her side of the family as a result. So there were, there was a period of time where they were married, where my father was trying to control the scenario and being controlling by telling my mom and and refuting to my mom that she cannot stay connected to her family, and the scenario became abusive, mainly because there were so many layers of a lack of support that were building on top of each other that resulted in a family that was broken from within because they weren't strong with each other, and so I was born, and maybe two years after I was born, the abuse amplified and because of that amplification, my mom divorced from him and there was a huge separation and I did not know my father as a person until I was around 16 years old, and that's when I got to meet him and I met a new person from the person that she knew.
Speaker 2:And so I think that experience that my mom shared with me when I got older especially because I had always questioned her like who's my dad, why don't you tell me about my dad, et cetera I saw how it affected so many people down to my grandparents never even meeting my father. I think my it will be my grandmother's first time meeting him at our wedding, right and so I knew this and I know what it could look like if I were to respond with fear. And so, because I know that I choose to go the opposite way of optimism and openness, because I never want that to happen to anyone, and myself included, I don't want to repeat those woes and I want to have hope in place of fear, to see how a more beautiful outcome could be painted. This in contrast to fear, meeting with fear. And so I have a lot of optimism because I feel it is not just on my shoulders, but my opportunity to create a circumstance that embodies a lot more love than the circumstances that I was born into.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's like a, it's a very like, almost like, self-aware way of looking at it, just like, objectively speaking, being able to like, take what has happened and like parse it out. Because you're right, Like, regardless of where we come from, when you see people controlled by fear and shame which is what a lot of South Asians go through that's where the problems start. That's where the control issues, the trying to control the women in our community, trying to put all this pressure on everyone. Right, like, no one's happy. That's the wild part. Right, like, everyone is controlled by shame and fear. Everyone is miserable. Then they're making everyone around them miserable and then we just have this like stew of like people who are upset.
Speaker 1:And then, when you try to be like, you know what, I'm going to do something that makes me happy. Right, you're choosing to be with this person and that blows up everything in everyone's face, because they never chose to do what made them happy. They let the fear control them and you're choosing like you know what. It's scary, you know what. I don't know how it's going to go with my parents or my family and I don't know what life will look like in 10 years. There's a lot of uncertainty to some extent, but we're going to do it anyway and we're going to figure it out and it's going to be okay. And it's like that hope and that autonomy and choice of like we're going to walk into the fear and go with it. I think really like messes with a lot of people in our culture, like it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to allow someone to do that and be okay with it for them.
Speaker 3:That's a good point. I think you brought up a really both of you brought up a great point about this aspect of fear, and it is paralyzing, it is very controlling and it can be right If you let it manifest in that way. And I also think like I had specific moments where I let fear control me. If I think about, you know, from like when I was living at my parents house, when I was growing up, middle school, high school, like even college years, like my early twenties I remember very clearly like I was very fearful of, you know, a reality of what if I chose to, in like this case, like not be with someone who was Gujarati and Hindu, and what would be the implications of that. And that fear is what drove me a lot of times to lead a double life. Like there was like the person who I want to be and then the person that my parents want me to be, and for me, like I was, I think like I had even told them before I met Dev like I'm gonna marry whoever I want to marry and if they're Hindu and Gujarati, great, not opposed to it, but if they're not, that's still great, more than happy and open for it. And my parents were already not happy with that answer. And so, like I think there's that to say that I already made it clear that I was going to make a choice for myself before meeting Dev, and I think, after I met Dev and I saw what they said to me, so like in my early twenties, when I made that comment to them, come into fruition, it was a very jarring moment for me and I think this is like how I still have the fear, because I feel the sense of like, fear of like what will people say.
Speaker 3:And then I have this other side of me where I'm like, but you actually don't care what people say, like you care, but like you don't actually care, because you know that if, like this is gonna, it doesn't sound as dark as I'm about to say it, but I say to like, I remind myself, like if you're on your death bed, what are you gonna regret?
Speaker 3:Are you gonna regret, like you know, you did X and people cared, and you know, or are you gonna care that you didn't do it and I'm gonna care that I didn't do it, or whatever it is? And so, like I know it's okay to have the fear, and that's what I tell my like, when my figure starts, like my fear of voice starts coming in my head, I'm like, hey, I get it, you're here, like it helped protect you for so many years when you were being two different versions of yourself and you don't live that life anymore and so you don't have to worry about it. And so, like, live it how you wanna live it, which is so crazy to me still to this day to even say that and at the same time, it just became so hard to be two different people where I was like I just wanna be one person and that's me. And so I think that's where I was just like, fear enough, I'm gonna have to push you to the side, because it is too much to not be me at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you're right and it's weird like I think about like, cause, like you, it was like that double life. It was how do I make this person feel whole? Because for so long I think a lot of us go through not feeling whole because of this double life, and then when we finally decide like we're gonna be the same person, it takes a really long time for it to mesh together and work itself out. Because, like, I almost feel like you're trying to like take two piles of like knotted yarn and then make one ball out of it and you're like we have to undo so much on both sides and try to make it feel whole. And then it's tough cause, like I've always said, like sometimes I just feel so broken, like I'm never gonna be able to feel like okay and just like normal for lack of a better phrase Because even now, like that fear and that need for control will like creep up in weird ways, like and now it's like very minor ways, but I notice it and I have to almost like step back, be like okay, we just have to let it go, cause I'm a control freak and that's no secret around here, but, like when it comes to my husband.
Speaker 1:Like there were active moments of me having to be like you can't control him, like you can't let what other people are gonna say make it, so you can't accept him in front of everybody the way he is so like and this is like such a stupid minor thing, but like when we he started hanging out with my family Indian people, we love food, we love talking about food and you know he's like a real, like white boy, like he's a steak and potatoes guy and so if people you know my family be like, oh, what's your favorite food? Like he would be like steak, which, like fear Hindu they don't. And my husband is like very like, unapologetically himself, like he just is who he is and you know like and he doesn't really get like why him even answering that question would be weird. And in my head I'd be like, oh my God, you can't say steak. Like they're gonna freak out, like they don't eat beef, like we're Hindu, like oh my God. And I'd be like, wait a second, you're marrying him.
Speaker 1:If you can accept that about him, you have to just let everyone else like soak that up and deal with it. Like if you come in and be like, oh no, that's not his favorite food. Like that's weird, like we don't eat. Like it was like no, if you can stand here and you're gonna stand by this man, and like he's the one, I'm gonna marry him. His favorite food is steak. Get over it. And it was a minor source of like me trying to control that narrative and I just had to be like no, we're not doing that, like we're just gonna let him be because I'm not gonna let like the toxic shit from my family, like seep, into the way he you know behaves on his own and over time, as people saw, like she is not wavering here, Like there's not an ounce of hesitation on this girl's face over this guy.
Speaker 1:Everyone else kind of like okay, okay, we're just gonna have to do this, Like there's clearly no other option here. Everybody Like. And then I think, like, like that really forced people to just like deal in whatever way they had to. That didn't become my problem, quite frankly, because I just wouldn't let it. And it's hard because sometimes you're like this sucks, but like not letting that fear control me. It was like a really. It still is like a journey, it's still like a process.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was gonna say it's control. It's been, it's been there. The fear and control, at least for me, has been there for over 20 years of my life, and so I remind myself that if I built this in 20 years, it's gonna take some time to really dismantle it and to like see it through. Like six months is not like I'll see growth yes, and growth is not linear. But at the same time, I like I understand that Cause I'm like I have to remind myself when I get impatient with myself, I'm like, well, you actually built this in 20 years and so it's not gonna be broken down in six months, and so that's just something that I always try to remember because, very similar to you, I pick up on certain things about myself too that comes from my own fear or comes from my own like traumas I grew up as well or like I have this big need to like I want my voice to be heard, because I didn't really share much of an opinion growing up.
Speaker 3:Like even in the like white spaces I was in, I was, I felt like I was very silent, I was silenced a few times, a lot of times, and so even now, even when it comes out like in a weird way, I used to judge myself and I'd be like no, you just didn't do it for 20 years, and so now you're just figuring out your pathway of how to communicate in a way that's authentic to you, but also in a way that you want to communicate and that's effective, and so that's just to say. I get that wholeheartedly and I'm like I just remind myself 20 years to build it is going to take more than six months to a year to dismantle it.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and Dev, cause you, obviously you get a front row seat to all of the rebuilding here for people who are listening, cause we have lots of partners who listen, lots of people who are trying to understand, like what their South Asian half is going through.
Speaker 3:And that was him. He's the one who would listen to the podcast, and share the video.
Speaker 1:You're the one who found this show, For those people who are listening that are like I don't know how to support my partner through this. I don't know how to like, how can I be there for them? That is like helpful and productive. Do you have any advice for them?
Speaker 2:I do. There's two things that someone in our position will go through. They're going to go through their own feelings and they're going to go through their partner's feelings, your own feelings. I would suggest to bring those feelings to the table at some point after your partner has shared their feelings and they're at a place to listen. Once you do that, once you bring your feelings to the table, reconcile with your feelings, like, look at those feelings in the face, because they're part of us. Our feelings are part of us. They're not going to go anywhere. It's just we learn how to dance with those feelings a little bit better. Reconcile with those feelings and find out if, where those feelings are coming from and if that makes sense those feelings, because sometimes our feelings could turn into fear.
Speaker 2:So that's the first part, and I constantly do it. Even to this day, I'm sharing a lot of optimism with you and in the same breath, I went through a lot of periods of just feeling a bit more angry than I would want to, especially because I don't want to feel angry ever. So, of course, I've checked those feelings, understood where they come from and then, after making peace with where these feelings are coming from, it's this idea of building yourself back up to accept that the way you are is the way you are, and that way that you are is what your partner enjoys, loves and wants to see from you, so there's nothing wrong with it. So that's the first thing of self monitoring and checking yourself. The second part to it, with supporting your partner, is it might be a little bit cliche, but listening and understanding where they're coming from. And, trust me, you will understand. A lot of the times I didn't understand. I'd be a liar to be like, yeah, I understand everything, nisha. No, but actually listen to understand and not listen to respond, because the more that you listen and you could understand where their feelings are coming from, the more you could figure out and think of creative ways to fill in those pockets where they would need you without them expressing to you. This is how I need you to show up.
Speaker 2:So, of course, the first couple of times I'm listening to Nisha share, I'm sharing too and I'm learning in that same breath because a lot of fire is coming out her mouth that I'll get licked with that fire and I need to calm down, and that led me to a place of okay, maybe I shouldn't share right now and I should listen. And I would listen. And then Nisha would ask me for my perspective and I would share it and I'd realize, oh, maybe that's not what I should share. And so, through this whole journey of me listening to understand, I came to this new place where, when Nisha is sharing, when she's done sharing, I might say did you want me to listen to you and understand? Do you want me to respond to you or do you want me to express love in a different way?
Speaker 2:In that last question I have, I wouldn't ask her that. If she couldn't answer the first two and she was just in a place of disarray I knew that the third question in my head that would pop up of do you need me to show you love in a specific way that you like it, that would be the answer. So that could be a hug, that could be me putting a supportive hand on her. All of these trials that I went through are not perfect and they may not work all the time, but I think me just having the moment to go through these questions in these periods where Nisha is sharing makes her feel that I am a cornerstone of support through her whole journey, which is what matters the most.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. That's so sweet.
Speaker 2:I know it sounds all kumbaya-ish and I messed up a lot. She's messed up a lot. We've had arguments spawn in the middle of me, trying all these kumbaya different things, but honestly, we go through it, and going through it like those moments of tension, that's really what keeps us and keeps that fire alive, because if we can't do it with each other, then we're going to crumble in front of the rest of the world. So it helped to make a house between ourselves without it having to be in the four walls of our physical house. Everywhere we go, there is that level of cornerstone and support that we have from each other through these moments and in any moment where we do have to represent one another or each other as a unit.
Speaker 1:Love that. I think that's good advice for pretty much anyone in a relationship with another human being, pretty solid advice. But we always say it on this show right, as long as you two are on the same page, everyone else you guys can figure out together, because it's like you guys have to want the same things, be on the same team, have the same goal. It's crazy because I feel like I'm sure, anisha, you've had your moments where you're like am I doing the right thing? You question yourself, you sit there and wonder is this going to be worth it?
Speaker 1:And then we go through all of this relationship building things. You hear the couples on this show. Some of them will go to therapy, even though there's nothing wrong with their relationship, because they want to make sure they're doing it right, or they'll work through all of these things. They'll communicate so much and they build this super strong relationship in a way that other couples, who nobody asks questions about why they're dating, will never do. And yet we're the ones sitting here trying to explain to other people why we're with the right person and I feel like we've done like 10 times more work to like fortify that than other people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's so frustrating.
Speaker 3:I think it makes it stronger. It makes it stronger in my opinion. It makes like going through this has made us as a unit, like just us being a unit and setting our own foundation. I it feels, I feel stronger as a couple with him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as you should. In all of this. We're still kind of going through it, we're still figuring it out. What in your mind like that, and not even like end goal, but like bigger picture life things, what do you guys want to have in your future that you are both kind of working towards, regardless of what the families are bringing to the table?
Speaker 2:I could yeah, I could share my so to preface to this answer. One of the first things I have done, I am currently doing and I will continue doing, is diving in head first In as many different aspects of Indian culture as possible. Right now I am on my seek curtain. I'm on that journey right now, just learning and hearing them and, of sort, diving into all of that culture because at some point we do want to build our family and we want to include additional members to our family. We want to have children at some point, and so I say that to say when we do have our children, I don't want anything about our culture, cultures to be hidden.
Speaker 2:Even if mom and dad are upset with Nisha's choices, I don't want them to feel like they don't belong within this culture because it's their culture that all of that history, from Uganda to all the different countries to coming over here, all of that history makes them and will continue after them.
Speaker 2:So all of this is like, yes, it's tough, yes, it's, it's enduring, and at the same time, when we, when there is the future, the physical aspect of the future, which is our children, that are here, I don't want myself to not even be able to speak about Indian culture because of the fears that have been projected through Nisha to me, especially with he's not Hindu. How could you be with him? Well, I'm going to go to temple, I'm going to eat at canteen. I'm going to learn all of these different aspects so that when we have our children, of course I'm teaching them about Haitian culture, but I have an England to teach them a bit about their own culture, where they come from, and know where to point them to seek more answers, so they have the full scope and picture of who they are. So all of this is for our future, even if it's not a physical representation in our home, whatever family members that we have that are creating their futures with their children so they could learn it.
Speaker 1:Love that, nisha, would you like to add to it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think for me it's just happiness, and so I think one of the tough lessons I've had to learn through all of this, especially in the beginning, was how to create my own happiness instead of relying on others for it and taking back my control, essentially, of my own happiness. And so I think I'm on a journey of what makes me happy, and I want to do that. And I know with happiness comes, there has to be, depending on who you ask. It can be a philosophical debate, but I believe with happiness there is some sadness that comes along with that, and that's okay. But also finding ways to create my own happiness and create our happiness together.
Speaker 3:And so I reflect and think about myself as a future hopefully parent, and the kind of things that I want to, the spaces that I want to create for the future generations that are to come, and so I know that that has to be done with me first, and then, of course, deb and I have to set the foundation as a couple continuously. It's not just we have it right now and so we're good. It's like I see it as continuous work and creating our foundation, and that makes me happy too, and so I see like the future as like creating happiness, but creating like spaces for happiness for the future generations as well, to come and figure it out on their own too.
Speaker 2:I like that answer.
Speaker 1:I love it. My last question is always the same to everyone. You guys can both leave your own two cents on it. If you could leave the people listening to this, on the other end some piece of advice or some words of wisdom, what would they be?
Speaker 2:I would like to, I would like to start. All the emotions that you feel they're justified, there's. They're those fresh, raw emotions that you feel through this journey. They make sense, there's nothing wrong with them All, every single one of them, the happiness, the sadness, the rage, the fear all of that makes sense. With it making sense, it really is up to you with trying to figure out what perspective you want to take when you move forward with your partner and how you want that perspective to manifest. And once you figure that out for yourself and you share this with your partner, it will become a foundation for your relationship, either to strengthen it or for you to construct and reconstruct in any of those moments. So all of your emotions are justified, they make sense, you're not wrong, and there will be some point in time where you can create a foundation, pivotal for you too.
Speaker 3:One would be give yourself grace.
Speaker 3:If you can't, I, I believe this about myself, and so the advice I give is the advice I like to also remind and give myself is if I can't give myself grace, how can I expect others to give me grace?
Speaker 3:And I think that I mean. One reason why this podcast resonates with me so much is because I found it in a time where I felt really alone in my journey and so, yes, like no one's ever going to have the same journey as you it's not, you know, one size fits all, and there was some there is some solace in knowing that there are people who are doing things differently and trying to create their own pathways and they, like, are figuring it out, just like I am. And I love connecting with people who are also trying to figure it out with me, because it just helps me grow on my own perspective and then it even helps me grow in the grace I give myself, the grace I give even to my parents, and the grace I give to, like even others who you know may have also contributed to how my parents, like my extended family, and how my parents think. And so, give yourself grace.
Speaker 1:But thank you so much for being a guest. It's really appreciated. I'm sure we will chat again in the future.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having us. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Likewise Thank you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for tuning in guys. Make sure if you enjoyed this episode, you leave us a review on iTunes. You can find the show on all major streaming platforms. You can find me on Instagram at DishaMazeppa. You can shop my Etsy shop, disha Mazeppa Designs. Find out everything you want to know about this show at DishaMazeppacom, and if you or someone you know would like to be a guest, you can email bwpspodcast at gmailcom. And I'll see you guys next time. Bye, this podcast is hosted and produced by Disha Mystery Mazeppa.
Speaker 2:The music for the show was created by Crackswell.