{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":26.91,"endTime":28.200000000000003,"body":"What"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":26.91,"endTime":28.200000000000003,"body":"do good leaders do?"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":28.8,"endTime":31.62,"body":"How do they motivate, create"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":28.8,"endTime":31.62,"body":"efficiencies and connect"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":31.62,"endTime":33.949,"body":"the dots to paint a clear,"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":31.62,"endTime":33.949,"body":"big picture for their"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":33.949,"endTime":36.480000000000004,"body":"employees and fellow leaders"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":33.949,"endTime":36.480000000000004,"body":"within an organization?"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":37.81,"endTime":40.979,"body":"The answer may be to create"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":37.81,"endTime":40.979,"body":"a bit of the right kind of"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":40.980000000000004,"endTime":42.21,"body":"friction from time to time."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":42.659000000000006,"endTime":45.07,"body":"Welcome to the People"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":42.659000000000006,"endTime":45.07,"body":"Managing People podcast."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":45.269999999999996,"endTime":47.819,"body":"We're on a mission to build a"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":45.269999999999996,"endTime":47.819,"body":"better world of work and help"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":47.82,"endTime":50.69,"body":"you create happy, healthy,"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":47.82,"endTime":50.69,"body":"and productive workplaces."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":51.519999999999996,"endTime":53.16,"body":"I'm your host, David Rice."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":53.509,"endTime":55.149,"body":"My guest today is Robert Sutton."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":55.55,"endTime":57.819,"body":"He's an organizational"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":55.55,"endTime":57.819,"body":"psychologist and professor"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":57.819,"endTime":60.41,"body":"of management science in the"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":57.819,"endTime":60.41,"body":"Stanford Engineering School."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":61.150000000000006,"endTime":63.93000000000001,"body":"He's also the author of a"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":61.150000000000006,"endTime":63.93000000000001,"body":"new book called \"The Friction"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":63.93000000000001,"endTime":66.919,"body":"Project - How Smart Leaders"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":63.93000000000001,"endTime":66.919,"body":"Make the Right Things Easier"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":66.999,"endTime":68.1,"body":"and the Wrong Things Harder\"."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":68.825,"endTime":71.34400000000001,"body":"We're going to take a look"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":68.825,"endTime":71.34400000000001,"body":"at the ideas of good friction"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":71.34400000000001,"endTime":74.045,"body":"and bad friction in the"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":71.34400000000001,"endTime":74.045,"body":"workplace and discuss some"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":74.045,"endTime":76.95400000000001,"body":"of the core concepts of the"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":74.045,"endTime":76.95400000000001,"body":"book that leaders and managers"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":76.95400000000001,"endTime":79.895,"body":"can apply to help their teams"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":76.95400000000001,"endTime":79.895,"body":"thrive through good friction."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":84.304,"endTime":85.435,"body":"So, Bob, welcome."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":85.794,"endTime":86.615,"body":"It's good to have"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":85.794,"endTime":86.615,"body":"you on the show."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":86.954,"endTime":87.855,"body":"It's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":86.954,"endTime":87.855,"body":"great to be here."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":88.214,"endTime":89.074,"body":"Nice to meet you, David."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":89.244,"endTime":92.304,"body":"So I want to start"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":89.244,"endTime":92.304,"body":"with what inspired the book."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":92.304,"endTime":94.724,"body":"You mentioned it in the opening"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":92.304,"endTime":94.724,"body":"of the book, but for our"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":94.724,"endTime":97.474,"body":"listeners, can you describe"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":94.724,"endTime":97.474,"body":"some of the extent of some"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":97.474,"endTime":99.675,"body":"of the things that you were"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":97.474,"endTime":99.675,"body":"seeing that made you feel like"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":99.675,"endTime":100.435,"body":"this needed to be written?"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":100.945,"endTime":103.08,"body":"There was sort"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":100.945,"endTime":103.08,"body":"of two things; one was"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":103.08,"endTime":105.24,"body":"rational and the other"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":103.08,"endTime":105.24,"body":"one was more emotional."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":105.73,"endTime":110.02,"body":"And the rational one is that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":105.73,"endTime":110.02,"body":"my coworker, co-conspirator,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":110.03999999999999,"endTime":112.58,"body":"whatever, what you call them,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":110.03999999999999,"endTime":112.58,"body":"Huggy Rao on this adventure,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":112.95,"endTime":118.229,"body":"we wrote a book, oh God, life"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":112.95,"endTime":118.229,"body":"goes fast, 2014 on scaling."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":118.679,"endTime":121.259,"body":"And so it's all these"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":118.679,"endTime":121.259,"body":"organizations we worked with to"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":121.259,"endTime":125.75999999999999,"body":"name some of them, Google now"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":121.259,"endTime":125.75999999999999,"body":"Alphabet, Facebook now Meta,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":125.75999999999999,"endTime":126.77,"body":"they're changing their names."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":126.77,"endTime":127.47,"body":"They got so big."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":127.92,"endTime":131.469,"body":"Salesforce, these companies we"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":127.92,"endTime":131.469,"body":"know in the Bay area that we"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":131.469,"endTime":132.58,"body":"knew them when they were little."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":133.114,"endTime":135.764,"body":"And when you talk to everybody"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":133.114,"endTime":135.764,"body":"we know who's worked there"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":135.764,"endTime":137.954,"body":"a long time, they talk about"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":135.764,"endTime":137.954,"body":"how it gets harder and harder"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":137.954,"endTime":140.144,"body":"to get things done as they"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":137.954,"endTime":140.144,"body":"get larger and more complex."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":140.755,"endTime":143.464,"body":"So that was one of the causes"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":140.755,"endTime":143.464,"body":"of us writing the book."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":143.744,"endTime":147.714,"body":"The other one was more emotional"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":143.744,"endTime":147.714,"body":"that in our interactions with"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":147.725,"endTime":150.624,"body":"people in the classroom and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":147.725,"endTime":150.624,"body":"the companies that we work with"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":150.994,"endTime":154.834,"body":"just in our lives, people would"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":150.994,"endTime":154.834,"body":"just talk about how hard it"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":154.835,"endTime":158.32999999999998,"body":"was to get simple things done,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":154.835,"endTime":158.32999999999998,"body":"things like walking in muck."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":158.4,"endTime":160.64,"body":"I work in a frustration factory."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":160.94,"endTime":164.04,"body":"And I remember this middle"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":160.94,"endTime":164.04,"body":"manager saying to us,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":164.739,"endTime":167.649,"body":"essentially, I feel like"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":164.739,"endTime":167.649,"body":"I'm living in a world of"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":167.649,"endTime":170.22,"body":"shit and they expect me"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":167.649,"endTime":170.22,"body":"to show some initiative."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":170.39,"endTime":173.37,"body":"And so we got interested in the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":170.39,"endTime":173.37,"body":"bad news and we can talk about"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":173.69,"endTime":176.04,"body":"the good news in a little bit"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":173.69,"endTime":176.04,"body":"but it was the bad news that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":176.04,"endTime":178.7,"body":"got us going and it was the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":176.04,"endTime":178.7,"body":"optimism that kept us going."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":178.999,"endTime":181.26,"body":"So when we hear"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":178.999,"endTime":181.26,"body":"the word friction in an"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":181.27,"endTime":183.439,"body":"organizational sense, most"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":181.27,"endTime":183.439,"body":"people cringe and they think"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":183.439,"endTime":186.309,"body":"of those bad experiences like"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":183.439,"endTime":186.309,"body":"we're talking about, but there"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":186.309,"endTime":189.149,"body":"is such a good thing as good"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":186.309,"endTime":189.149,"body":"friction that helps us build"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":189.159,"endTime":190.379,"body":"things, create better products."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":190.389,"endTime":192.629,"body":"So can you tell us a little"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":190.389,"endTime":192.629,"body":"bit more about, what good"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":192.629,"endTime":195.069,"body":"friction looks like and how to"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":192.629,"endTime":195.069,"body":"replicate it when we see it?"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":195.649,"endTime":197.529,"body":"That's something"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":195.649,"endTime":197.529,"body":"we've really been thinking"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":197.579,"endTime":200.169,"body":"about a lot, continuing with"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":197.579,"endTime":200.169,"body":"this theme that when the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":200.169,"endTime":202.819,"body":"project started, which is like"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":200.169,"endTime":202.819,"body":"friction's bad, and if something"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":202.819,"endTime":207.129,"body":"is hard to do, or if it's a"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":202.819,"endTime":207.129,"body":"struggle or feels difficult."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":207.489,"endTime":210.639,"body":"But then, we started looking"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":207.489,"endTime":210.639,"body":"at the actual evidence and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":210.639,"endTime":213.439,"body":"there are certain things that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":210.639,"endTime":213.439,"body":"are hard to do and should be"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":213.439,"endTime":217.379,"body":"hard to do, and we think about"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":213.439,"endTime":217.379,"body":"the notion of a related point"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":217.379,"endTime":218.619,"body":"when speed is your enemy."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":219.069,"endTime":221.989,"body":"And to give you just two or"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":219.069,"endTime":221.989,"body":"three things that should be"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":221.999,"endTime":225.579,"body":"hard and slow, that when you"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":221.999,"endTime":225.579,"body":"don't know what to do as a"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":225.579,"endTime":230.709,"body":"leader team, it's better to"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":225.579,"endTime":230.709,"body":"hit the brakes and to figure"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":230.709,"endTime":233.129,"body":"out what the heck is going"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":230.709,"endTime":233.129,"body":"on rather than rush ahead"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":233.529,"endTime":235.029,"body":"and to make a decision."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":235.029,"endTime":239.634,"body":"Which is we see this over"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":235.029,"endTime":239.634,"body":"and over and over again,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":239.794,"endTime":242.404,"body":"where people make impulsive"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":239.794,"endTime":242.404,"body":"decisions and then they're"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":242.404,"endTime":244.614,"body":"sorry later, especially"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":242.404,"endTime":244.614,"body":"when they're irreversible."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":244.844,"endTime":245.834,"body":"That would be one example."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":245.834,"endTime":246.774,"body":"And it's good to slow down."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":247.034,"endTime":250.954,"body":"The second thing is just the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":247.034,"endTime":250.954,"body":"research on creativity and I've"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":250.954,"endTime":254.164,"body":"been studying and following the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":250.954,"endTime":254.164,"body":"literature on creativity for"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":254.244,"endTime":257.814,"body":"some 25 years and the evidence"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":254.244,"endTime":257.814,"body":"for creativity is it's just"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":257.814,"endTime":259.634,"body":"a messy, inefficient process."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":259.914,"endTime":262.144,"body":"And I mean, we may see"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":259.914,"endTime":262.144,"body":"just in this era where like"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":262.144,"endTime":264.884,"body":"ChatGPT and these large"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":262.144,"endTime":264.884,"body":"language models and everything"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":264.884,"endTime":268.61400000000003,"body":"and people are working on"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":264.884,"endTime":268.61400000000003,"body":"variations of this for decades."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":268.644,"endTime":270.474,"body":"Although maybe it's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":268.644,"endTime":270.474,"body":"happening faster than they"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":270.474,"endTime":273.194,"body":"thought, but that means"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":270.474,"endTime":273.194,"body":"that it's happening 10 years"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":273.204,"endTime":274.154,"body":"faster than they thought."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":274.704,"endTime":277.874,"body":"And so creativity is a difficult"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":274.704,"endTime":277.874,"body":"process and one of my favorite"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":277.874,"endTime":281.304,"body":"quotes in the book, I can't"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":277.874,"endTime":281.304,"body":"believe this, Jerry Seinfeld,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":281.304,"endTime":284.074,"body":"the comedian got interviewed"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":281.304,"endTime":284.074,"body":"by Harvard Business Review,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":284.074,"endTime":286.764,"body":"which is the most unlikely"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":284.074,"endTime":286.764,"body":"thing I can think of as it is."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":287.294,"endTime":290.274,"body":"But, and it's this really funny"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":287.294,"endTime":290.274,"body":"interview and they ask him,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":290.274,"endTime":293.384,"body":"they said so you and Larry"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":290.274,"endTime":293.384,"body":"David, you did all the writing"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":293.394,"endTime":295.914,"body":"yourself and you got so burned"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":293.394,"endTime":295.914,"body":"out, you had to end the episode."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":296.214,"endTime":297.834,"body":"And they said, could"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":296.214,"endTime":297.834,"body":"McKinsey help you?"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":298.504,"endTime":300.554,"body":"And then he asked"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":298.504,"endTime":300.554,"body":"him, who's McKinsey?"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":301.084,"endTime":303.474,"body":"And then they tell him, and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":301.084,"endTime":303.474,"body":"then he says, are they funny?"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":303.474,"endTime":304.324,"body":"They say no."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":304.764,"endTime":306.854,"body":"And then he said,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":304.764,"endTime":306.854,"body":"I don't want them."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":307.134,"endTime":309.094,"body":"The hard way is the right way."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":309.334,"endTime":311.214,"body":"If you're doing it efficient"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":309.334,"endTime":311.214,"body":"and you're doing it wrong,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":311.234,"endTime":314.314,"body":"and I think that that applies"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":311.234,"endTime":314.314,"body":"in all sorts of settings."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":314.324,"endTime":315.004,"body":"And, I haven't heard yet."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":315.464,"endTime":319.824,"body":"So one of my favorite books"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":315.464,"endTime":319.824,"body":"ever, Creativity Incorporated"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":319.954,"endTime":322.814,"body":"by Ed Catmull, which I would"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":319.954,"endTime":322.814,"body":"nominate as the best, certainly"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":322.814,"endTime":325.324,"body":"the best creativity and business"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":322.814,"endTime":325.324,"body":"book ever written, possibly the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":325.324,"endTime":326.584,"body":"best business book ever written."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":327.024,"endTime":331.124,"body":"So Ed, who we got to know pretty"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":327.024,"endTime":331.124,"body":"well over the last 15 years."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":331.574,"endTime":334.924,"body":"If you talk to Ed about"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":331.574,"endTime":334.924,"body":"efficiency in making films at"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":334.924,"endTime":338.134,"body":"Pixar, he just gets confused"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":334.924,"endTime":338.134,"body":"because it's just irrelevant."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":338.474,"endTime":340.174,"body":"His perspective is we"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":338.474,"endTime":340.174,"body":"just keep iterating"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":340.174,"endTime":341.204,"body":"until it's good enough."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":341.544,"endTime":343.714,"body":"And we have high standards"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":341.544,"endTime":343.714,"body":"that, and then just as a"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":343.714,"endTime":346.774,"body":"final one in this area of"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":343.714,"endTime":346.774,"body":"move fast and break things."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":347.11899999999997,"endTime":351.039,"body":"That there's quite good evidence"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":347.11899999999997,"endTime":351.039,"body":"in academia, the faster people"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":351.039,"endTime":354.409,"body":"go, especially the faster the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":351.039,"endTime":354.409,"body":"corporate culture and the more"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":354.409,"endTime":357.309,"body":"in a hurry they're in, the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":354.409,"endTime":357.309,"body":"more likely they are to cheat."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":357.679,"endTime":361.039,"body":"And we certainly see that with"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":357.679,"endTime":361.039,"body":"Elizabeth Holmes, a dropout"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":361.039,"endTime":364.219,"body":"of my own university, Sam"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":361.039,"endTime":364.219,"body":"Baikman Freed, I think some"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":364.219,"endTime":367.039,"body":"of that was going on there"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":364.219,"endTime":367.039,"body":"with the cryptocurrency."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":367.089,"endTime":371.309,"body":"And so those are just some of"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":367.089,"endTime":371.309,"body":"the times when you want to slow"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":371.309,"endTime":372.299,"body":"down and make things difficult."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":372.299,"endTime":375.389,"body":"Oh, and gee, by the way, for"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":372.299,"endTime":375.389,"body":"people interested in long"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":375.389,"endTime":379.099,"body":"term relationships, whether"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":375.389,"endTime":379.099,"body":"it's love or whether it's,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":379.109,"endTime":382.229,"body":"emotional attachment to the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":379.109,"endTime":382.229,"body":"team, the longer people work"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":382.229,"endTime":385.819,"body":"together and the more they"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":382.229,"endTime":385.819,"body":"struggle, the better it is."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":385.819,"endTime":388.509,"body":"And of course, Warren Buffett"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":385.819,"endTime":388.509,"body":"and Charlie Munger, they've been"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":388.509,"endTime":389.649,"body":"working together since 1965."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":390.239,"endTime":392.199,"body":"That seems to be"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":390.239,"endTime":392.199,"body":"working pretty well."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":392.199,"endTime":394.999,"body":"And The Supremes, I love"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":392.199,"endTime":394.999,"body":"this, that Supreme song - You"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":394.999,"endTime":397.559,"body":"Can’t Hurry Love, that's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":394.999,"endTime":397.559,"body":"empirically correct."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":397.819,"endTime":399.86899999999997,"body":"So there's just some times"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":397.819,"endTime":399.86899999999997,"body":"when you got to slow down"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":399.86899999999997,"endTime":401.019,"body":"and struggle a little bit."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":401.019,"endTime":404.659,"body":"And finally, I already said"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":401.019,"endTime":404.659,"body":"finally, once one of my favorite"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":404.659,"endTime":407.279,"body":"things, which I just got"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":404.659,"endTime":407.279,"body":"interested in this research,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":407.279,"endTime":409.339,"body":"just as we're finishing the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":407.279,"endTime":409.339,"body":"book, there's this research"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":409.339,"endTime":412.529,"body":"on savoring and there's all"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":409.339,"endTime":412.529,"body":"these great things in life."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":413.014,"endTime":416.174,"body":"Eating a great meal,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":413.014,"endTime":416.174,"body":"making love, like figure"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":416.174,"endTime":417.064,"body":"out what you want."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":417.424,"endTime":419.064,"body":"Like when you rush them,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":417.424,"endTime":419.064,"body":"they're not as good."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":419.184,"endTime":422.574,"body":"So this idea of slowing down and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":419.184,"endTime":422.574,"body":"sort of savoring the good things"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":422.574,"endTime":425.194,"body":"in life, you want those to be"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":422.574,"endTime":425.194,"body":"a little bit inefficient too."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":425.674,"endTime":427.984,"body":"So anyway, so those are"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":425.674,"endTime":427.984,"body":"just some of the things"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":427.984,"endTime":429.964,"body":"that sort of struck us"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":427.984,"endTime":429.964,"body":"that there's all, there are"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":429.964,"endTime":431.574,"body":"advantages to good friction."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":431.574,"endTime":433.814,"body":"And we think of the gas and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":431.574,"endTime":433.814,"body":"the brakes a lot of times."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":434.504,"endTime":435.944,"body":"Sometimes you got to hit"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":434.504,"endTime":435.944,"body":"the brakes and sometimes"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":435.944,"endTime":436.784,"body":"you got to hit the gas."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":436.914,"endTime":437.544,"body":"That's interesting."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":437.544,"endTime":439.564,"body":"You know, cause like I"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":437.544,"endTime":439.564,"body":"always think about, we talk"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":439.564,"endTime":441.484,"body":"all the time about like"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":439.564,"endTime":441.484,"body":"objectives, key results,"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":441.514,"endTime":442.554,"body":"goals, all these things."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":442.554,"endTime":442.824,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":442.824,"endTime":445.99399999999997,"body":"And every meaningful thing"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":442.824,"endTime":445.99399999999997,"body":"I think I've ever done it's"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":445.99399999999997,"endTime":448.774,"body":"always like the journey was"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":445.99399999999997,"endTime":448.774,"body":"the part, not necessarily"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":448.774,"endTime":449.774,"body":"the end destination."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":449.774,"endTime":451.804,"body":"The journey had all the"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":449.774,"endTime":451.804,"body":"lessons and the value and"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":451.814,"endTime":454.434,"body":"the growth and the things"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":451.814,"endTime":454.434,"body":"that I learned, you know?"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":454.664,"endTime":456.074,"body":"So maybe it's kind"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":454.664,"endTime":456.074,"body":"of the same thing."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":456.484,"endTime":459.009,"body":"It's funny you"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":456.484,"endTime":459.009,"body":"say that because, so this"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":459.009,"endTime":462.589,"body":"is my 8th business ebook and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":459.009,"endTime":462.589,"body":"gee, I hope people buy it."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":462.599,"endTime":464.949,"body":"And you know, I want them"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":462.599,"endTime":464.949,"body":"to listen to this show and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":464.949,"endTime":465.889,"body":"I want them to get excited."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":465.889,"endTime":466.789,"body":"I want them to go and buy it."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":466.789,"endTime":469.159,"body":"But first of all, it"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":466.789,"endTime":469.159,"body":"took me years to love the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":469.159,"endTime":470.179,"body":"process of writing it."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":470.599,"endTime":473.959,"body":"And now since part of"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":470.599,"endTime":473.959,"body":"promoting a book, I get to meet"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":473.979,"endTime":475.909,"body":"interesting people like you"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":473.979,"endTime":475.909,"body":"and I just try to enjoy the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":475.909,"endTime":478.539,"body":"process and whatever happens,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":475.909,"endTime":478.539,"body":"happens with the outcome."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":478.949,"endTime":480.949,"body":"Because I can't control"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":478.949,"endTime":480.949,"body":"the outcome anyways, and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":480.949,"endTime":482.939,"body":"I can control a little"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":480.949,"endTime":482.939,"body":"bit of the process."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":482.979,"endTime":484.449,"body":"So, but yeah, that's true."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":484.999,"endTime":488.449,"body":"In the book, you"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":484.999,"endTime":488.449,"body":"refer to friction fixers as a"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":488.449,"endTime":490.259,"body":"trustee of other people's time."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":490.269,"endTime":491.269,"body":"And I really like that."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":491.714,"endTime":494.274,"body":"Particularly, there's this"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":491.714,"endTime":494.274,"body":"section about poser tricks"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":494.274,"endTime":498.264,"body":"or hollow acts that undermine"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":494.274,"endTime":498.264,"body":"friction fixing as I read"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":498.264,"endTime":501.124,"body":"that, but I couldn't help but"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":498.264,"endTime":501.124,"body":"feel like, wow, I've had a"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":501.124,"endTime":504.524,"body":"lot of these things done to"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":501.124,"endTime":504.524,"body":"me by bad managers over the"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":504.524,"endTime":507.824,"body":"years, particularly people"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":504.524,"endTime":507.824,"body":"searching for someone to blame."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":508.169,"endTime":510.679,"body":"So I'm curious, what are"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":508.169,"endTime":510.679,"body":"some memorable examples that"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":510.679,"endTime":512.499,"body":"you've seen of those tricks?"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":512.539,"endTime":515.139,"body":"You and I both have"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":512.539,"endTime":515.139,"body":"been victims and maybe even"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":515.1890000000001,"endTime":517.349,"body":"some of the perpetrators of"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":515.1890000000001,"endTime":517.349,"body":"this stuff because it's hard"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":517.349,"endTime":519.419,"body":"to get through organizational"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":517.349,"endTime":519.419,"body":"life without doing it to other"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":519.429,"endTime":520.7090000000001,"body":"people, even accidentally."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":520.979,"endTime":523.589,"body":"I'm sure that I've accidentally"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":520.979,"endTime":523.589,"body":"wasted a lot of my students"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":523.589,"endTime":524.774,"body":"time over the years."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":525.224,"endTime":527.884,"body":"But the way that I got"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":525.224,"endTime":527.884,"body":"interested in this, it"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":527.884,"endTime":530.764,"body":"actually goes way back to my"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":527.884,"endTime":530.764,"body":"very first business book with"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":530.764,"endTime":533.494,"body":"my co-author, Jeff Pfeffer,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":530.764,"endTime":533.494,"body":"The Knowing-Doing Gap."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":534.004,"endTime":536.7940000000001,"body":"And we have a chapter there"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":534.004,"endTime":536.7940000000001,"body":"that's about using talk as"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":536.7940000000001,"endTime":539.894,"body":"a substitute for action or"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":536.7940000000001,"endTime":539.894,"body":"the smart talk trap is what"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":539.9040000000001,"endTime":540.894,"body":"we eventually called it."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":541.214,"endTime":543.474,"body":"So the way I got interested"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":541.214,"endTime":543.474,"body":"in this was my, this is my"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":543.484,"endTime":547.254,"body":"very first consulting job ever"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":543.484,"endTime":547.254,"body":"with a top management team."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":547.254,"endTime":548.234,"body":"This is long time ago."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":548.234,"endTime":550.124,"body":"This is 25 years ago or so."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":550.774,"endTime":552.774,"body":"And I would fly to the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":550.774,"endTime":552.774,"body":"Midwest to this big"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":552.774,"endTime":554.024,"body":"manufacturing corporation."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":554.024,"endTime":556.484,"body":"I watch the senior"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":554.024,"endTime":556.484,"body":"team in action."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":557.1740000000001,"endTime":560.114,"body":"And the thing that I remember"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":557.1740000000001,"endTime":560.114,"body":"most is that they kept making"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":560.4140000000001,"endTime":565.8040000000001,"body":"the same decision over and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":560.4140000000001,"endTime":565.8040000000001,"body":"over, and the decision was"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":565.8040000000001,"endTime":567.5540000000001,"body":"to put the name of their"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":565.8040000000001,"endTime":567.5540000000001,"body":"product on their product."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":567.5540000000001,"endTime":569.4540000000001,"body":"I don't think this is"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":567.5540000000001,"endTime":569.4540000000001,"body":"a trivial decision."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":569.9240000000001,"endTime":571.5440000000001,"body":"And the other thing I"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":569.9240000000001,"endTime":571.5440000000001,"body":"realized after about three"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":571.5440000000001,"endTime":573.5340000000001,"body":"meetings is they weren't"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":571.5440000000001,"endTime":573.5340000000001,"body":"writing anything down."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":573.9440000000001,"endTime":577.224,"body":"And they would not start"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":573.9440000000001,"endTime":577.224,"body":"meetings by saying, well, what"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":577.234,"endTime":579.7940000000001,"body":"did we decide last time and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":577.234,"endTime":579.7940000000001,"body":"what should we do this time?"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":580.004,"endTime":582.224,"body":"And I just realized that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":580.004,"endTime":582.224,"body":"they were just using talk"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":582.224,"endTime":583.254,"body":"as a substitute for action."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":583.254,"endTime":585.844,"body":"That for them, just saying"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":583.254,"endTime":585.844,"body":"smart things in meetings was"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":586.0340000000001,"endTime":588.5640000000001,"body":"how you got ahead and not to"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":586.0340000000001,"endTime":588.5640000000001,"body":"bash the management consultants."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":589.3240000000001,"endTime":591.384,"body":"A lot of them, my best friends"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":589.3240000000001,"endTime":591.384,"body":"are management consultants"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":591.714,"endTime":593.6840000000001,"body":"and I'm a management"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":591.714,"endTime":593.6840000000001,"body":"consultant sometimes."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":594.264,"endTime":597.374,"body":"But I think the fact that there"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":594.264,"endTime":597.374,"body":"was one or two manufacturing"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":597.374,"endTime":600.384,"body":"people in 10 management"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":597.374,"endTime":600.384,"body":"consultants on the former"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":600.384,"endTime":602.734,"body":"management consultants in the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":600.384,"endTime":602.734,"body":"top team was related to that."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":603.149,"endTime":604.9190000000001,"body":"Because my friends are in"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":603.149,"endTime":604.9190000000001,"body":"management consultants when"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":604.9190000000001,"endTime":607.009,"body":"they give you their advice and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":604.9190000000001,"endTime":607.009,"body":"they just leave, they're done."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":607.4090000000001,"endTime":608.1690000000001,"body":"That's what they sell."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":608.6790000000001,"endTime":610.7090000000001,"body":"And so that's how I got"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":608.6790000000001,"endTime":610.7090000000001,"body":"interested in the Jeff"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":610.7090000000001,"endTime":613.129,"body":"Pfeffer and I wrote about"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":610.7090000000001,"endTime":613.129,"body":"the smart talk trap."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":613.589,"endTime":616.3190000000001,"body":"And then eventually we saw"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":613.589,"endTime":616.3190000000001,"body":"that friction fixers are"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":616.3190000000001,"endTime":619.0390000000001,"body":"not people who talk about"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":616.3190000000001,"endTime":619.0390000000001,"body":"what should be done or"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":619.0390000000001,"endTime":620.379,"body":"come up with flashy ideas."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":620.639,"endTime":622.9190000000001,"body":"They actually focus"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":620.639,"endTime":622.9190000000001,"body":"on implementation."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":622.9190000000001,"endTime":624.2090000000001,"body":"I don't like that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":622.9190000000001,"endTime":624.2090000000001,"body":"word execution."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":624.2090000000001,"endTime":626.739,"body":"That reminds me of a capital"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":624.2090000000001,"endTime":626.739,"body":"punishment or something."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":627.0490000000001,"endTime":629.9190000000001,"body":"But they do focus on"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":627.0490000000001,"endTime":629.9190000000001,"body":"implementing on a talk"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":629.9490000000001,"endTime":631.1690000000001,"body":"that motivates action."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":631.349,"endTime":633.1890000000001,"body":"So people who are friction"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":631.349,"endTime":633.1890000000001,"body":"fixers are people who"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":633.1890000000001,"endTime":634.0690000000001,"body":"actually do stuff."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":634.0690000000001,"endTime":637.489,"body":"And that's why we talked about"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":634.0690000000001,"endTime":637.489,"body":"my friend, Becky Margiotta,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":638.019,"endTime":642.089,"body":"US army officer, and she"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":638.019,"endTime":642.089,"body":"led a movement that found"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":642.099,"endTime":644.399,"body":"homes for a hundred thousand"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":642.099,"endTime":644.399,"body":"homeless Americans, a hundred"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":644.399,"endTime":645.4190000000001,"body":"thousand homes campaign."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":645.7990000000001,"endTime":648.339,"body":"And as we talk about in the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":645.7990000000001,"endTime":648.339,"body":"book that they figured out"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":648.339,"endTime":650.2990000000001,"body":"there was a difference between"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":648.339,"endTime":650.2990000000001,"body":"the posers and the doers."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":650.9440000000001,"endTime":652.874,"body":"They called them chicken"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":650.9440000000001,"endTime":652.874,"body":"effers because when Becky"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":652.874,"endTime":655.2940000000001,"body":"was a captain, there's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":652.874,"endTime":655.2940000000001,"body":"something that was messed up."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":655.5740000000001,"endTime":659.254,"body":"Her colonel would say to her,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":655.5740000000001,"endTime":659.254,"body":"who's this chicken, which meant"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":659.2840000000001,"endTime":661.984,"body":"whose responsibility is it"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":659.2840000000001,"endTime":661.984,"body":"to fix it and who can fix it?"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":662.4340000000001,"endTime":665.9240000000001,"body":"And so she gave this little"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":662.4340000000001,"endTime":665.9240000000001,"body":"metal rooster as a reward"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":666.384,"endTime":669.3240000000001,"body":"to people in the campaign"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":666.384,"endTime":669.3240000000001,"body":"who actually found homes"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":669.344,"endTime":670.3140000000001,"body":"for homeless people."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":670.374,"endTime":672.3240000000001,"body":"That was a definition of"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":670.374,"endTime":672.3240000000001,"body":"action in this campaign"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":672.5740000000001,"endTime":674.4040000000001,"body":"versus she called them"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":672.5740000000001,"endTime":674.4040000000001,"body":"hollow Easter bunnies."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":674.4040000000001,"endTime":676.594,"body":"Those are the people who would"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":674.4040000000001,"endTime":676.594,"body":"show up at meetings and just"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":676.594,"endTime":678.6640000000001,"body":"talk and talk and talk and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":676.594,"endTime":678.6640000000001,"body":"never actually implement it."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":678.774,"endTime":681.394,"body":"So that to us for getting"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":678.774,"endTime":681.394,"body":"rid of friction, people who"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":681.4140000000001,"endTime":683.634,"body":"actually do stuff are important."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":683.964,"endTime":685.6640000000001,"body":"You have this"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":683.964,"endTime":685.6640000000001,"body":"in the book, there's this"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":685.8340000000001,"endTime":688.5640000000001,"body":"help pyramid and at the"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":685.8340000000001,"endTime":688.5640000000001,"body":"bottom three levels, they're"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":688.5640000000001,"endTime":691.984,"body":"really more of about helping"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":688.5640000000001,"endTime":691.984,"body":"people deal with friction"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":691.984,"endTime":694.774,"body":"in healthy ways, whereas the"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":691.984,"endTime":694.774,"body":"top two levels are really"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":694.774,"endTime":698.214,"body":"more focused on preventing"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":694.774,"endTime":698.214,"body":"and curing friction troubles."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":698.964,"endTime":701.1540000000001,"body":"I want to do a little back"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":698.964,"endTime":701.1540000000001,"body":"and forth around these,"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":701.1540000000001,"endTime":701.9440000000001,"body":"if that's all right."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":701.9540000000001,"endTime":704.884,"body":"Cause what I'll do is I'll"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":701.9540000000001,"endTime":704.884,"body":"say a term and if you could"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":704.894,"endTime":707.754,"body":"give us a short anecdote or"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":704.894,"endTime":707.754,"body":"story about some of the most"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":707.774,"endTime":710.364,"body":"interesting or ridiculous"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":707.774,"endTime":710.364,"body":"examples you've seen of this."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":710.764,"endTime":713.5440000000001,"body":"So we'll start with"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":710.764,"endTime":713.5440000000001,"body":"executive magnification."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":713.6540000000001,"endTime":715.734,"body":"I was raised as an"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":713.6540000000001,"endTime":715.734,"body":"organizational theorist that,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":716.144,"endTime":718.634,"body":"Oh, when you're at the top,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":716.144,"endTime":718.634,"body":"leaders are always complaining"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":718.644,"endTime":720.0440000000001,"body":"about resistance to change."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":720.0740000000001,"endTime":722.6640000000001,"body":"Oh, they're, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":720.0740000000001,"endTime":722.6640000000001,"body":"I'm implementing a quality"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":722.6640000000001,"endTime":723.854,"body":"movement or design thinking."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":724.104,"endTime":725.9540000000001,"body":"And it's the right thing to"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":724.104,"endTime":725.9540000000001,"body":"do and they're not doing it."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":726.359,"endTime":728.399,"body":"But one of the things, and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":726.359,"endTime":728.399,"body":"there's very good evidence"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":728.399,"endTime":732.0290000000001,"body":"about this, it's just how"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":728.399,"endTime":732.0290000000001,"body":"baboon troops work too, that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":732.0290000000001,"endTime":734.759,"body":"when you're in a hierarchy,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":732.0290000000001,"endTime":734.759,"body":"people pay really a lot of"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":734.759,"endTime":738.599,"body":"attention to the top dogs"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":734.759,"endTime":738.599,"body":"because they can do wonderful"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":738.599,"endTime":739.5490000000001,"body":"and terrible things to us."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":739.5590000000001,"endTime":741.019,"body":"So you watch them"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":739.5590000000001,"endTime":741.019,"body":"really closely."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":741.019,"endTime":744.349,"body":"So the baboon literature is"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":741.019,"endTime":744.349,"body":"that the, in a baboon troop,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":744.359,"endTime":747.0390000000001,"body":"the average troop member"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":744.359,"endTime":747.0390000000001,"body":"looks up at the alpha male"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":747.0390000000001,"endTime":749.9090000000001,"body":"every 30 or 40 seconds because"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":747.0390000000001,"endTime":749.9090000000001,"body":"they can hurt them, they can"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":749.9090000000001,"endTime":751.879,"body":"help them, they can bring"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":749.9090000000001,"endTime":751.879,"body":"them food, blah, blah, blah."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":752.1990000000001,"endTime":754.3190000000001,"body":"So if you bring this"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":752.1990000000001,"endTime":754.3190000000001,"body":"into hierarchical life,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":754.599,"endTime":755.9490000000001,"body":"there's all these examples."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":755.9490000000001,"endTime":759.479,"body":"And we have some long examples"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":755.9490000000001,"endTime":759.479,"body":"in the book of executives who"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":759.8090000000001,"endTime":762.6890000000001,"body":"entire movement started because"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":759.8090000000001,"endTime":762.6890000000001,"body":"they complained about something,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":762.6890000000001,"endTime":767.339,"body":"but perhaps my favorite one was"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":762.6890000000001,"endTime":767.339,"body":"the CEO of a fortune 10 company."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":767.729,"endTime":770.719,"body":"And I remember talking to"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":767.729,"endTime":770.719,"body":"somebody who was on his team"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":770.719,"endTime":773.594,"body":"and what this guy did was"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":770.719,"endTime":773.594,"body":"just randomly, right after"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":773.594,"endTime":776.2940000000001,"body":"he took over as CEO, there's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":773.594,"endTime":776.2940000000001,"body":"a breakfast meeting and he"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":776.2940000000001,"endTime":778.854,"body":"just wondered idly where"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":776.2940000000001,"endTime":778.854,"body":"the blueberry muffins were."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":778.9040000000001,"endTime":780.9440000000001,"body":"He just said, Oh, there's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":778.9040000000001,"endTime":780.9440000000001,"body":"no blueberry muffins."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":781.364,"endTime":784.6540000000001,"body":"And so in the notes about him"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":781.364,"endTime":784.6540000000001,"body":"became likes blueberry muffins."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":784.9540000000001,"endTime":788.114,"body":"And it took him years to figure"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":784.9540000000001,"endTime":788.114,"body":"out that every breakfast meeting"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":788.114,"endTime":791.264,"body":"he ever went to, there was huge"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":788.114,"endTime":791.264,"body":"piles of blueberry muffins."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":791.264,"endTime":793.144,"body":"He didn't even like"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":791.264,"endTime":793.144,"body":"blueberry muffins that much."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":793.489,"endTime":796.0490000000001,"body":"And that notion that when"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":793.489,"endTime":796.0490000000001,"body":"you're in a position of"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":796.0490000000001,"endTime":799.219,"body":"power, that being careful that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":796.0490000000001,"endTime":799.219,"body":"people are watching you so"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":799.219,"endTime":802.479,"body":"closely that you'll say stuff"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":799.219,"endTime":802.479,"body":"you'll just forget or isn't"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":802.479,"endTime":804.969,"body":"very important to you, it'll"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":802.479,"endTime":804.969,"body":"get magnified to something."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":804.979,"endTime":807.499,"body":"There's so much research"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":804.979,"endTime":807.499,"body":"on resistance to change,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":807.7890000000001,"endTime":810.509,"body":"but I don't think there's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":807.7890000000001,"endTime":810.509,"body":"much research on sort of"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":810.509,"endTime":813.109,"body":"magnification when people"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":810.509,"endTime":813.109,"body":"get overly enthusiastic"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":813.119,"endTime":815.494,"body":"about what they're doing"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":813.119,"endTime":815.494,"body":"and get you into trouble."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":815.5540000000001,"endTime":818.234,"body":"That's just one thing that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":815.5540000000001,"endTime":818.234,"body":"oblivious leaders do is they"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":818.254,"endTime":820.8240000000001,"body":"set things off, they have no"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":818.254,"endTime":820.8240000000001,"body":"intention of setting off at all."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":820.8240000000001,"endTime":821.364,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":821.394,"endTime":823.7940000000001,"body":"The next one would"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":821.394,"endTime":823.7940000000001,"body":"be decision amnesia."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":823.884,"endTime":827.124,"body":"So decision"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":823.884,"endTime":827.124,"body":"amnesia is this tendency where"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":827.124,"endTime":830.014,"body":"in some organizations that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":827.124,"endTime":830.014,"body":"people make the decision and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":830.024,"endTime":832.274,"body":"everybody leaves the meeting"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":830.024,"endTime":832.274,"body":"and they think it's done."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":832.2940000000001,"endTime":836.714,"body":"And then it gets raised again"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":832.2940000000001,"endTime":836.714,"body":"and two kinds of reasons that we"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":836.714,"endTime":838.274,"body":"see decision amnesia get raised."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":838.724,"endTime":841.6640000000001,"body":"One is because people"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":838.724,"endTime":841.6640000000001,"body":"kind of forget."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":842.2890000000001,"endTime":845.0790000000001,"body":"The other one is that there's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":842.2890000000001,"endTime":845.0790000000001,"body":"one or two people who don't"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":845.0790000000001,"endTime":847.839,"body":"like the decision so they're"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":845.0790000000001,"endTime":847.839,"body":"trying to overturn it."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":848.0790000000001,"endTime":849.979,"body":"Sometimes it's the CEO"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":848.0790000000001,"endTime":849.979,"body":"doesn't like the decision"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":849.979,"endTime":851.599,"body":"where they pretend that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":849.979,"endTime":851.599,"body":"they're being democratic."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":852.109,"endTime":855.4190000000001,"body":"And then they make the decision"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":852.109,"endTime":855.4190000000001,"body":"and then they come back and they"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":855.4190000000001,"endTime":856.4490000000001,"body":"say, I didn't really like that."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":856.4490000000001,"endTime":859.0490000000001,"body":"Let's revisit one more time"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":856.4490000000001,"endTime":859.0490000000001,"body":"where they're insecure,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":859.0590000000001,"endTime":860.089,"body":"they want to reverse it."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":860.399,"endTime":860.6690000000001,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":860.6790000000001,"endTime":863.269,"body":"And the last one, cookie"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":860.6790000000001,"endTime":863.269,"body":"licking, maybe my favorite."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":863.9090000000001,"endTime":866.349,"body":"This was brought"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":863.9090000000001,"endTime":866.349,"body":"to us, we had this research"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":866.349,"endTime":868.719,"body":"assistant for a background"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":866.349,"endTime":868.719,"body":"and her name was Rebecca Hein."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":868.729,"endTime":869.879,"body":"She started as an undergraduate."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":870.2940000000001,"endTime":872.0440000000001,"body":"She worked through"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":870.2940000000001,"endTime":872.0440000000001,"body":"Stanford, got a PhD."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":872.0640000000001,"endTime":874.9240000000001,"body":"Now she's running something"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":872.0640000000001,"endTime":874.9240000000001,"body":"called the Asana Work"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":874.9240000000001,"endTime":877.214,"body":"Innovation Lab and she's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":874.9240000000001,"endTime":877.214,"body":"hiring Stanford professors."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":877.214,"endTime":877.764,"body":"I'm not kidding."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":877.7840000000001,"endTime":879.134,"body":"So she's gone full circle."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":879.4440000000001,"endTime":882.3040000000001,"body":"So early on in the process, I'm"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":879.4440000000001,"endTime":882.3040000000001,"body":"talking to Rebecca, like what"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":882.3240000000001,"endTime":883.974,"body":"leads to clue of this executive?"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":883.974,"endTime":885.124,"body":"She said, cookie licking."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":885.124,"endTime":886.344,"body":"I said, what are"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":885.124,"endTime":886.344,"body":"you talking about?"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":886.6840000000001,"endTime":889.6940000000001,"body":"She said, this actually, it's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":886.6840000000001,"endTime":889.6940000000001,"body":"partly Microsoft parlance,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":889.6940000000001,"endTime":892.344,"body":"or it's just like when little"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":889.6940000000001,"endTime":892.344,"body":"kids, they lick the cookie"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":892.344,"endTime":893.5340000000001,"body":"so nobody else can use it."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":893.5340000000001,"endTime":895.0840000000001,"body":"It's calling dibs on something."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":895.5490000000001,"endTime":897.399,"body":"So other people can't do it."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":897.469,"endTime":900.2790000000001,"body":"In the classic example"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":897.469,"endTime":900.2790000000001,"body":"where we saw was there's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":900.2790000000001,"endTime":902.9590000000001,"body":"lots of different startups"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":900.2790000000001,"endTime":902.9590000000001,"body":"in Silicon Valley."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":902.9590000000001,"endTime":905.009,"body":"And Larry Page was"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":902.9590000000001,"endTime":905.009,"body":"definitely guilty of this."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":905.0690000000001,"endTime":909.3290000000001,"body":"It Google in the early days,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":905.0690000000001,"endTime":909.3290000000001,"body":"this is where the CEO in the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":909.3290000000001,"endTime":911.7990000000001,"body":"early days of the company"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":909.3290000000001,"endTime":911.7990000000001,"body":"insists on interviewing"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":911.7990000000001,"endTime":913.979,"body":"every candidate before"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":911.7990000000001,"endTime":913.979,"body":"they're giving a job offer."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":914.7990000000001,"endTime":916.9490000000001,"body":"Well, that made sense for"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":914.7990000000001,"endTime":916.9490000000001,"body":"Google when they had 5,000,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":917.3090000000001,"endTime":918.3290000000001,"body":"maybe even 300-400 people."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":919.0590000000001,"endTime":922.9190000000001,"body":"But my understanding is Larry"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":919.0590000000001,"endTime":922.9190000000001,"body":"Page wanted to be involved"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":922.9390000000001,"endTime":925.859,"body":"in those decisions well after"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":922.9390000000001,"endTime":925.859,"body":"they had 1,000 employees, which"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":925.9390000000001,"endTime":927.1790000000001,"body":"just doesn't make any sense."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":927.649,"endTime":930.009,"body":"It slows down the whole"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":927.649,"endTime":930.009,"body":"situation and then you"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":930.009,"endTime":932.0690000000001,"body":"end up losing candidates"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":930.009,"endTime":932.0690000000001,"body":"who go somewhere else"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":932.0690000000001,"endTime":932.84,"body":"who you want to keep."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":933.1790000000001,"endTime":936.0490000000001,"body":"So cookie licking is just"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":933.1790000000001,"endTime":936.0490000000001,"body":"calling dibs on thing and just"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":936.0490000000001,"endTime":938.8290000000001,"body":"becoming the bottleneck in"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":936.0490000000001,"endTime":938.8290000000001,"body":"the process, even though it"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":938.8290000000001,"endTime":941.1590000000001,"body":"isn't necessarily something"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":938.8290000000001,"endTime":941.1590000000001,"body":"you ever intend to do."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":941.499,"endTime":943.1890000000001,"body":"Those are all"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":941.499,"endTime":943.1890000000001,"body":"really great examples."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":944.239,"endTime":944.4290000000001,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":944.4290000000001,"endTime":945.379,"body":"Well, I hate to say it."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":945.379,"endTime":949.129,"body":"I, as a co-author in"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":945.379,"endTime":949.129,"body":"articles, I often am the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":949.129,"endTime":952.0290000000001,"body":"cookie licker because I"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":949.129,"endTime":952.0290000000001,"body":"don't, I'm so controlling"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":952.0290000000001,"endTime":953.2090000000001,"body":"poor Huggy, my co-author."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":953.2090000000001,"endTime":955.3190000000001,"body":"I'm sure I did this to"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":953.2090000000001,"endTime":955.3190000000001,"body":"him like 3000 times during"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":955.3190000000001,"endTime":956.1590000000001,"body":"the course of this book."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":956.649,"endTime":958.6790000000001,"body":"Which is that, no, no,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":956.649,"endTime":958.6790000000001,"body":"no, no, I'll write that."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":958.739,"endTime":960.989,"body":"Well, it maybe would've"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":958.739,"endTime":960.989,"body":"been better if I didn't"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":960.989,"endTime":962.759,"body":"lick so many cookies during"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":960.989,"endTime":962.759,"body":"the course of this book."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":963.009,"endTime":964.259,"body":"So, I'm guilty."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":964.4590000000001,"endTime":966.599,"body":"In recent years,"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":964.4590000000001,"endTime":966.599,"body":"we've heard a lot about"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":966.7090000000001,"endTime":967.9590000000001,"body":"flattening hierarchies."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":967.9590000000001,"endTime":969.4090000000001,"body":"I actually experienced this."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":969.4090000000001,"endTime":971.769,"body":"I worked for an organization"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":969.4090000000001,"endTime":971.769,"body":"where they flattened the"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":971.769,"endTime":974.259,"body":"marketing department down"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":971.769,"endTime":974.259,"body":"to just two levels and"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":974.259,"endTime":976.979,"body":"it created this like mass"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":974.259,"endTime":976.979,"body":"confusion, especially for"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":976.979,"endTime":979.129,"body":"people who thought they"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":976.979,"endTime":979.129,"body":"were in the group that sat"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":979.129,"endTime":980.0390000000001,"body":"higher up, but they weren't."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":980.9040000000001,"endTime":984.2840000000001,"body":"It was sort of like, well,"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":980.9040000000001,"endTime":984.2840000000001,"body":"so is there nothing that"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":984.2840000000001,"endTime":986.1940000000001,"body":"I can ascend into now?"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":986.4240000000001,"endTime":988.604,"body":"But you talk in the book"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":986.4240000000001,"endTime":988.604,"body":"about hierarchy being"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":988.6540000000001,"endTime":990.2940000000001,"body":"inevitable, not just useful."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":990.514,"endTime":992.094,"body":"So take us through that a bit."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":992.134,"endTime":994.714,"body":"And for our audience that is"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":992.134,"endTime":994.714,"body":"sitting in that startup space"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":994.724,"endTime":997.8140000000001,"body":"where they can still design"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":994.724,"endTime":997.8140000000001,"body":"their hierarchies, what advice"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":997.8140000000001,"endTime":1000.004,"body":"would you give them as they"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":997.8140000000001,"endTime":1000.004,"body":"look to innovate around how"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1000.004,"endTime":1001.2940000000001,"body":"they structure personnel?"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1001.4540000000001,"endTime":1002.8040000000001,"body":"There are"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1001.4540000000001,"endTime":1002.8040000000001,"body":"organizations that are"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1002.8050000000001,"endTime":1006.0490000000001,"body":"more hierarchical and have"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1002.8050000000001,"endTime":1006.0490000000001,"body":"more levels then there are"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1006.0490000000001,"endTime":1007.0390000000001,"body":"fewer levels than others."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1007.0390000000001,"endTime":1008.979,"body":"So I'm not saying"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1007.0390000000001,"endTime":1008.979,"body":"that more is better."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1009.3190000000001,"endTime":1011.149,"body":"I'm saying some is inevitable."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1011.399,"endTime":1014.339,"body":"And the fact is there's all of"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1011.399,"endTime":1014.339,"body":"this research, like researchers"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1014.339,"endTime":1017.0790000000001,"body":"will try to create leaderless"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1014.339,"endTime":1017.0790000000001,"body":"groups and tell them they"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1017.089,"endTime":1018.2890000000001,"body":"all have equal authority."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1018.7890000000001,"endTime":1021.609,"body":"They fight like crazy over"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1018.7890000000001,"endTime":1021.609,"body":"who's in charge informally."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1021.6690000000001,"endTime":1024.819,"body":"It's one of the best ways to"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1021.6690000000001,"endTime":1024.819,"body":"create conflict and inefficiency"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1024.829,"endTime":1027.419,"body":"in just a small group is"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1024.829,"endTime":1027.419,"body":"to tell them they have no"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1027.419,"endTime":1029.569,"body":"leader and everybody has the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1027.419,"endTime":1029.569,"body":"same amount of authority and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1029.569,"endTime":1030.699,"body":"they ended up fighting over."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1030.779,"endTime":1033.479,"body":"So the problem with hierarchy"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1030.779,"endTime":1033.479,"body":"is you just need it to"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1033.479,"endTime":1034.639,"body":"organize human beings."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1034.639,"endTime":1035.939,"body":"And this is the basic rule."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1035.939,"endTime":1039.209,"body":"People may say bureaucracy"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1035.939,"endTime":1039.209,"body":"is a dirty word, but the fact"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1039.209,"endTime":1042.669,"body":"is, as much as all of us hate"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1039.209,"endTime":1042.669,"body":"bureaucracy, when you have"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1042.689,"endTime":1045.529,"body":"people, you have to break"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1042.689,"endTime":1045.529,"body":"them into sub-groups after"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1045.529,"endTime":1046.469,"body":"a certain amount of size."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1046.769,"endTime":1050.8690000000001,"body":"You have to figure out who has"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1046.769,"endTime":1050.8690000000001,"body":"final decision authority, and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1051.049,"endTime":1052.259,"body":"you have to have some rules."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1052.319,"endTime":1055.579,"body":"I'm sorry, there's just no other"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1052.319,"endTime":1055.579,"body":"way to run a human organization."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1055.949,"endTime":1058.72,"body":"And so you might as well"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1055.949,"endTime":1058.72,"body":"have a logical number"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1058.72,"endTime":1059.6290000000001,"body":"of hierarchical levels."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1059.6290000000001,"endTime":1061.779,"body":"You might as well have"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1059.6290000000001,"endTime":1061.779,"body":"reasonable breakdowns and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1061.8790000000001,"endTime":1064.809,"body":"understanding who has the final"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1061.8790000000001,"endTime":1064.809,"body":"decision is really important."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1065.089,"endTime":1066.949,"body":"And one thing we do talk"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1065.089,"endTime":1066.949,"body":"about in the book, and this"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1066.949,"endTime":1069.47,"body":"is something that I was"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1066.949,"endTime":1069.47,"body":"co-author of a piece that was"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1069.47,"endTime":1071.3690000000001,"body":"in Harvard Business Review at"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1069.47,"endTime":1071.3690000000001,"body":"the beginning of the year on"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1071.3690000000001,"endTime":1075.279,"body":"this, is that what great leaders"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1071.3690000000001,"endTime":1075.279,"body":"do is rather than saying,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1075.279,"endTime":1076.449,"body":"oh, the hierarchy is fixed."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1076.924,"endTime":1079.934,"body":"And I'm in charge all the time,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1076.924,"endTime":1079.934,"body":"or I'm delegating everything"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1079.934,"endTime":1082.354,"body":"that would be no hierarchy,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1079.934,"endTime":1082.354,"body":"even though even that case,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1082.354,"endTime":1084.7340000000002,"body":"the leader is doing the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1082.354,"endTime":1084.7340000000002,"body":"delegation that what they do"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1084.7340000000002,"endTime":1086.144,"body":"is they flex the hierarchy."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1086.454,"endTime":1089.134,"body":"And my co-author, Lindy"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1086.454,"endTime":1089.134,"body":"Greer, did some studies"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1089.134,"endTime":1090.9740000000002,"body":"with 10 startups."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1090.9740000000002,"endTime":1093.7340000000002,"body":"And what she found was that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1090.9740000000002,"endTime":1093.7340000000002,"body":"the best CEOs of startups"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1093.9940000000001,"endTime":1096.4740000000002,"body":"don't insist on making every"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1093.9940000000001,"endTime":1096.4740000000002,"body":"decision and don't delegate"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1096.4740000000002,"endTime":1098.094,"body":"all the time, they flex."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1098.604,"endTime":1103.314,"body":"So what they do is they say,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1098.604,"endTime":1103.314,"body":"okay, so let's brainstorm, let's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1103.324,"endTime":1106.324,"body":"have an argument or a debate"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1103.324,"endTime":1106.324,"body":"about the best way to do this."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1106.344,"endTime":1107.954,"body":"Let's get ideas from people."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1108.374,"endTime":1112.694,"body":"And then they say, timeout,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1108.374,"endTime":1112.694,"body":"here's what we're going to do."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1113.405,"endTime":1114.595,"body":"Here's who's going to do it."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1114.7640000000001,"endTime":1115.2340000000002,"body":"And they go."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1115.685,"endTime":1117.645,"body":"Or one of the most important"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1115.685,"endTime":1117.645,"body":"things for hierarchy,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1117.645,"endTime":1119.295,"body":"and this is something"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1117.645,"endTime":1119.295,"body":"that's really important."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1119.305,"endTime":1121.815,"body":"You can look at even"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1119.305,"endTime":1121.815,"body":"international relations and my"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1121.835,"endTime":1124.7440000000001,"body":"late dissertation advisor, Bob"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1121.835,"endTime":1124.7440000000001,"body":"Kahn, talked about this a lot,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1125.045,"endTime":1127.5140000000001,"body":"is that when there is conflict,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1125.045,"endTime":1127.5140000000001,"body":"whether it's in a group or at a"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1127.515,"endTime":1131.305,"body":"national level or international"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1127.515,"endTime":1131.305,"body":"level, hierarchy, knowing"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1131.305,"endTime":1134.9840000000002,"body":"who is in charge and who has"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1131.305,"endTime":1134.9840000000002,"body":"the most power tends to work."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1135.2340000000002,"endTime":1138.075,"body":"Because let's say in a group"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1135.2340000000002,"endTime":1138.075,"body":"dynamics, the boss can jump"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1138.075,"endTime":1142.814,"body":"in and say, let's stop arguing"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1138.075,"endTime":1142.814,"body":"and let's move forward."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1142.814,"endTime":1143.834,"body":"This isn't useful."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1143.915,"endTime":1146.094,"body":"And when somebody has more"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1143.915,"endTime":1146.094,"body":"authority, when they say that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1146.125,"endTime":1149.544,"body":"it works, but there's no way"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1146.125,"endTime":1149.544,"body":"I can figure out to organize"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1149.544,"endTime":1152.624,"body":"human beings without having"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1149.544,"endTime":1152.624,"body":"some pecking order or apes or"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1152.624,"endTime":1154.2540000000001,"body":"dogs pick sort of your mammal."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1154.7540000000001,"endTime":1156.554,"body":"So, and I wish it wasn't true."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1156.554,"endTime":1159.065,"body":"I wish we were all equal and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1156.554,"endTime":1159.065,"body":"there are more benevolent"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1159.065,"endTime":1160.784,"body":"versus more nasty hierarchies."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1161.0140000000001,"endTime":1163.825,"body":"And I want them to be more"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1161.0140000000001,"endTime":1163.825,"body":"human and so forth, but I"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1163.825,"endTime":1166.145,"body":"don't know how to organize a"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1163.825,"endTime":1166.145,"body":"human organization without it."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1166.685,"endTime":1168.505,"body":"So, you know, as"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1166.685,"endTime":1168.505,"body":"organizations grow, we end"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1168.505,"endTime":1170.964,"body":"up spending a lot of time"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1168.505,"endTime":1170.964,"body":"talking about collaboration."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1170.964,"endTime":1172.544,"body":"There's one part in the"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1170.964,"endTime":1172.544,"body":"book I really like where"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1172.544,"endTime":1175.554,"body":"you talk about systems of"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1172.544,"endTime":1175.554,"body":"interdependence and you have,"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1176.115,"endTime":1178.464,"body":"so for the listener, you have"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1176.115,"endTime":1178.464,"body":"reciprocal interdependence"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1178.624,"endTime":1181.2450000000001,"body":"or a system where people,"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1178.624,"endTime":1181.2450000000001,"body":"teams, silos, whatever it may"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1181.2450000000001,"endTime":1184.355,"body":"be, they have to constantly"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1181.2450000000001,"endTime":1184.355,"body":"adjust back and forth to one"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1184.355,"endTime":1185.855,"body":"another as the work unfolds."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1186.464,"endTime":1187.285,"body":"It's like a soccer team."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1187.775,"endTime":1190.405,"body":"Then there's the pooled"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1187.775,"endTime":1190.405,"body":"interdependence, and that's"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1190.405,"endTime":1193.775,"body":"when organizations roll up the"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1190.405,"endTime":1193.775,"body":"separate independent efforts"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1193.775,"endTime":1195.135,"body":"of people or whole teams."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1195.554,"endTime":1199.0040000000001,"body":"So the example there that"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1195.554,"endTime":1199.0040000000001,"body":"Bob gives is the gymnastics"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1199.0040000000001,"endTime":1199.794,"body":"team in the Olympic."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1200.074,"endTime":1204.0140000000001,"body":"So you point out that the"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1200.074,"endTime":1204.0140000000001,"body":"second actually requires a lot"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1204.0140000000001,"endTime":1208.335,"body":"less because, but it sounds"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1204.0140000000001,"endTime":1208.335,"body":"counterintuitive for people"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1208.345,"endTime":1210.7640000000001,"body":"working in corporate spaces"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1208.345,"endTime":1210.7640000000001,"body":"where we've been talking"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1210.7640000000001,"endTime":1213.804,"body":"about breaking down silos"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1210.7640000000001,"endTime":1213.804,"body":"and using collaboration to"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1213.804,"endTime":1215.665,"body":"fuel innovation for decades."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1215.954,"endTime":1218.394,"body":"Kind of talk to me about"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1215.954,"endTime":1218.394,"body":"the benefit of these systems"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1218.395,"endTime":1220.125,"body":"and when to rely on each."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1220.325,"endTime":1222.314,"body":"Well, first of"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1220.325,"endTime":1222.314,"body":"all, this is a general design,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1222.365,"endTime":1225.0140000000001,"body":"and I'm not saying that you"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1222.365,"endTime":1225.0140000000001,"body":"should do everything you can"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1225.0140000000001,"endTime":1226.144,"body":"to reduce interdependence."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1226.144,"endTime":1228.054,"body":"When people need to"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1226.144,"endTime":1228.054,"body":"share information, it's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1228.054,"endTime":1229.095,"body":"important that they do it."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1229.365,"endTime":1232.775,"body":"It may be empowering and so"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1229.365,"endTime":1232.775,"body":"forth, but the fact is that in"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1232.775,"endTime":1235.865,"body":"fact, even one of my co-authors"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1232.775,"endTime":1235.865,"body":"defined interdependence."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1236.125,"endTime":1238.115,"body":"Interdependence means that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1236.125,"endTime":1238.115,"body":"things don't come out the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1238.115,"endTime":1241.2150000000001,"body":"way you want them to, it's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1238.115,"endTime":1241.2150000000001,"body":"almost by like what my wife"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1241.2150000000001,"endTime":1244.355,"body":"and I are having a discussion"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1241.2150000000001,"endTime":1244.355,"body":"today about whether to go out"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1244.355,"endTime":1247.895,"body":"for dinner, whether to order"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1244.355,"endTime":1247.895,"body":"food in or to cook dinner."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1248.055,"endTime":1249.815,"body":"I have a clear preference,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1248.055,"endTime":1249.815,"body":"but I'm not winning."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1250.3200000000002,"endTime":1252.68,"body":"And that's that's sort"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1250.3200000000002,"endTime":1252.68,"body":"of like how life is."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1252.68,"endTime":1254.6100000000001,"body":"And so the more interdependence"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1252.68,"endTime":1254.6100000000001,"body":"you have in some ways,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1254.63,"endTime":1256.6100000000001,"body":"it's all these people you"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1254.63,"endTime":1256.6100000000001,"body":"have to check with and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1256.6100000000001,"endTime":1257.8600000000001,"body":"there are issues with it."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1258.2,"endTime":1259.66,"body":"And I'll tell you"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1258.2,"endTime":1259.66,"body":"a little story."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1259.97,"endTime":1261.8,"body":"This may be referred in"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1259.97,"endTime":1261.8,"body":"the book, but I saw her"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1261.8,"endTime":1263.81,"body":"at a Halloween party,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1261.8,"endTime":1263.81,"body":"so it's more updated."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1264.1100000000001,"endTime":1267.1290000000001,"body":"So I have a friend, Kim"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1264.1100000000001,"endTime":1267.1290000000001,"body":"Scott, she's famous for"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1267.1290000000001,"endTime":1270.3700000000001,"body":"writing a book called Radical"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1267.1290000000001,"endTime":1270.3700000000001,"body":"Candor and Kim had a long"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1270.3700000000001,"endTime":1271.53,"body":"career in corporate America."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1271.53,"endTime":1274.589,"body":"And she just describes going"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1271.53,"endTime":1274.589,"body":"from Google and she said,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1274.6000000000001,"endTime":1279.534,"body":"Google, I would get 500 emails a"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1274.6000000000001,"endTime":1279.534,"body":"day from different groups about"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1279.534,"endTime":1280.704,"body":"different things and so forth."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1281.314,"endTime":1282.784,"body":"And then she moves to Apple."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1283.105,"endTime":1286.305,"body":"Apple is famous for its"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1283.105,"endTime":1286.305,"body":"secrecy, scared, silent is"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1286.305,"endTime":1287.4550000000002,"body":"sometimes what they say."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1287.6950000000002,"endTime":1290.4940000000001,"body":"It's amazing how"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1287.6950000000002,"endTime":1290.4940000000001,"body":"secretive Apple is."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1290.765,"endTime":1292.564,"body":"And my friends who would"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1290.765,"endTime":1292.564,"body":"Apple say, you can only"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1292.564,"endTime":1294.175,"body":"have lunch with your group"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1292.564,"endTime":1294.175,"body":"because you're not allowed"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1294.175,"endTime":1295.255,"body":"to talk to anybody else."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1295.265,"endTime":1296.329,"body":"That's how secretive they are."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1296.68,"endTime":1299.95,"body":"So Kim gets there and she"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1296.68,"endTime":1299.95,"body":"said, I would get five"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1299.95,"endTime":1301.3700000000001,"body":"emails a day if I was lucky."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1301.38,"endTime":1303.15,"body":"It usually would be"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1301.38,"endTime":1303.15,"body":"three cause I, they'd"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1303.15,"endTime":1304.0800000000002,"body":"only come from my team."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1304.0800000000002,"endTime":1305.47,"body":"I couldn't talk to anybody else."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1305.74,"endTime":1308.17,"body":"And she said, it was amazing"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1305.74,"endTime":1308.17,"body":"how much work I got done"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1308.6290000000001,"endTime":1311.329,"body":"because I didn't have to be"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1308.6290000000001,"endTime":1311.329,"body":"involved in everything else."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1311.53,"endTime":1313.8890000000001,"body":"And the way that she put"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1311.53,"endTime":1313.8890000000001,"body":"it is that at Google, the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1313.8890000000001,"endTime":1316.479,"body":"concept of staying in your"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1313.8890000000001,"endTime":1316.479,"body":"lane is something that nobody"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1316.48,"endTime":1317.6190000000001,"body":"really understood at all."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1318.0,"endTime":1320.38,"body":"And at Apple, that's the way"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1318.0,"endTime":1320.38,"body":"the whole company was ran."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1320.38,"endTime":1324.45,"body":"It just a small aside where I"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1320.38,"endTime":1324.45,"body":"first really heard about this."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1324.479,"endTime":1325.93,"body":"I had this guy in class."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1326.45,"endTime":1328.95,"body":"He took a year off to do"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1326.45,"endTime":1328.95,"body":"some classes at Stanford."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1328.95,"endTime":1330.26,"body":"His name's Chris Espinoza."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1330.69,"endTime":1333.64,"body":"Chris Espinoza is employee"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1330.69,"endTime":1333.64,"body":"number eight at Apple."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1333.64,"endTime":1334.48,"body":"He's still there."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1335.26,"endTime":1338.5,"body":"And the reason he's employee"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1335.26,"endTime":1338.5,"body":"number eight is that he was"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1338.5,"endTime":1341.479,"body":"going to high school when he"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1338.5,"endTime":1341.479,"body":"was working with the two Steve's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1341.69,"endTime":1344.509,"body":"and he got back to work at"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1341.69,"endTime":1344.509,"body":"three thirty after high school"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1344.51,"endTime":1346.56,"body":"and they'd given away the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1344.51,"endTime":1346.56,"body":"first seven employee numbers."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1346.5700000000002,"endTime":1349.01,"body":"So he's employee number"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1346.5700000000002,"endTime":1349.01,"body":"eight and he says, I'm the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1349.01,"endTime":1352.3200000000002,"body":"original Apple employee, the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1349.01,"endTime":1352.3200000000002,"body":"only original one left, and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1352.3300000000002,"endTime":1355.6100000000001,"body":"I can only get into 5% of the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1352.3300000000002,"endTime":1355.6100000000001,"body":"spaces with my badge because"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1355.6100000000001,"endTime":1356.47,"body":"there's so much secrecy."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1356.905,"endTime":1359.255,"body":"It's not like I'm a huge"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1356.905,"endTime":1359.255,"body":"Apple fan, but if we look"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1359.255,"endTime":1360.895,"body":"at Apple, they're secretive."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1361.1950000000002,"endTime":1363.065,"body":"They're really specialized."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1363.375,"endTime":1366.885,"body":"They don't really share"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1363.375,"endTime":1366.885,"body":"information and it's only a few"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1366.895,"endTime":1369.674,"body":"very senior executives who know"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1366.895,"endTime":1369.674,"body":"everything that's going on."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1369.935,"endTime":1372.825,"body":"I once had a guy who was a"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1369.935,"endTime":1372.825,"body":"very senior executive say"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1372.825,"endTime":1376.145,"body":"to me, it may be that Tim"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1372.825,"endTime":1376.145,"body":"Cook and Johnny Ive may be"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1376.145,"endTime":1378.285,"body":"the only two people in the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1376.145,"endTime":1378.285,"body":"company who know everything"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1378.285,"endTime":1379.265,"body":"that's in the next iPhone."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1379.935,"endTime":1382.805,"body":"I mean, and Apple's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1379.935,"endTime":1382.805,"body":"doing okay, you know."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1383.3400000000001,"endTime":1385.8400000000001,"body":"And it's not a particularly"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1383.3400000000001,"endTime":1385.8400000000001,"body":"inhuman organization either."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1385.95,"endTime":1387.8200000000002,"body":"It's like notion that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1385.95,"endTime":1387.8200000000002,"body":"there's different ways"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1387.8200000000002,"endTime":1389.03,"body":"to organize companies."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1389.03,"endTime":1390.97,"body":"And I'm not saying everybody"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1389.03,"endTime":1390.97,"body":"should be like Apple."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1391.0800000000002,"endTime":1393.49,"body":"I wouldn't want to work"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1391.0800000000002,"endTime":1393.49,"body":"in such a secretive kind"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1393.49,"endTime":1395.199,"body":"of paranoia type place."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1395.24,"endTime":1397.689,"body":"But there's different"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1395.24,"endTime":1397.689,"body":"solutions that actually work."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1397.739,"endTime":1399.249,"body":"And in that case,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1397.739,"endTime":1399.249,"body":"reduce friction."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1399.839,"endTime":1401.759,"body":"Before we"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1399.839,"endTime":1401.759,"body":"go, there's two things we"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1401.759,"endTime":1402.719,"body":"always like to do here."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1402.759,"endTime":1404.959,"body":"The first is I want to give you"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1402.759,"endTime":1404.959,"body":"a chance to tell people more"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1404.959,"endTime":1407.089,"body":"about, where they can connect"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1404.959,"endTime":1407.089,"body":"with you and where they can"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1407.0990000000002,"endTime":1408.409,"body":"pick up a copy of the book."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1408.729,"endTime":1410.1390000000001,"body":"Well, it's"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1408.729,"endTime":1410.1390000000001,"body":"easy to buy the book,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1410.179,"endTime":1411.179,"body":"The Friction Project."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1411.339,"endTime":1413.339,"body":"The best place probably to"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1411.339,"endTime":1413.339,"body":"connect with me is either"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1413.339,"endTime":1416.499,"body":"on LinkedIn or my website"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1413.339,"endTime":1416.499,"body":"is bobsutton.net, but I'm"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1416.499,"endTime":1417.8690000000001,"body":"very active on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1418.1090000000002,"endTime":1420.819,"body":"Honestly, I don't know"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1418.1090000000002,"endTime":1420.819,"body":"the future of Twitter/X."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1420.939,"endTime":1424.259,"body":"I guess I have 60 something"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1420.939,"endTime":1424.259,"body":"thousand followers on Twitter/X."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1424.819,"endTime":1427.1290000000001,"body":"I think at least two thirds"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1424.819,"endTime":1427.1290000000001,"body":"of them are bots from other"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1427.1290000000001,"endTime":1429.699,"body":"countries or something,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1427.1290000000001,"endTime":1429.699,"body":"but I am also active on"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1429.699,"endTime":1431.0990000000002,"body":"Twitter and learning threads."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1431.0990000000002,"endTime":1433.189,"body":"But the best place to find"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1431.0990000000002,"endTime":1433.189,"body":"me now is probably LinkedIn"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1433.604,"endTime":1434.574,"body":"and I'm pretty active."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1434.924,"endTime":1435.084,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1435.114,"endTime":1437.194,"body":"The second thing is we"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1435.114,"endTime":1437.194,"body":"started a little tradition"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1437.194,"endTime":1439.554,"body":"here on the podcast where"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1437.194,"endTime":1439.554,"body":"you get to ask me a question."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1439.824,"endTime":1441.634,"body":"So I want to turn it over to"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1439.824,"endTime":1441.634,"body":"you and be what you want to ask."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1442.074,"endTime":1442.804,"body":"Anything you want."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1443.444,"endTime":1445.074,"body":"Here's the"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1443.444,"endTime":1445.074,"body":"question I want to ask you."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1445.294,"endTime":1447.304,"body":"You spent a few years"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1445.294,"endTime":1447.304,"body":"in corporate America."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1447.829,"endTime":1450.519,"body":"If you could go back and"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1447.829,"endTime":1450.519,"body":"give one piece of advice"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1450.519,"endTime":1453.299,"body":"to your 25 year old"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1450.519,"endTime":1453.299,"body":"self, what would you do?"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1453.579,"endTime":1456.049,"body":"Don't speak"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1453.579,"endTime":1456.049,"body":"unless you have something"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1456.049,"endTime":1458.909,"body":"to add, especially in"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1456.049,"endTime":1458.909,"body":"the first five years."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1459.589,"endTime":1463.3690000000001,"body":"Just be the fly on the wall, you"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1459.589,"endTime":1463.3690000000001,"body":"know, learn, learn, just wait."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1463.7440000000001,"endTime":1466.834,"body":"Because what happened is we"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1463.7440000000001,"endTime":1466.834,"body":"talked a little bit about,"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1466.884,"endTime":1469.144,"body":"people talking and they say"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1466.884,"endTime":1469.144,"body":"a lot of things, but they"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1469.144,"endTime":1470.404,"body":"don't actually say anything."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1471.074,"endTime":1473.184,"body":"You're, you feel like"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1471.074,"endTime":1473.184,"body":"you're forced or you have"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1473.184,"endTime":1474.074,"body":"to speak in a meeting."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1474.804,"endTime":1477.904,"body":"Well, that's becomes one of the"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1474.804,"endTime":1477.904,"body":"habits you pick up is you start"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1477.924,"endTime":1480.554,"body":"saying things and you're like,"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1477.924,"endTime":1480.554,"body":"that didn't even mean anything."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1480.554,"endTime":1481.554,"body":"I don't even know what I meant."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1481.864,"endTime":1484.894,"body":"I would go back and tell"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1481.864,"endTime":1484.894,"body":"him to turn that off and"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1484.894,"endTime":1487.044,"body":"just be comfortable being"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1484.894,"endTime":1487.044,"body":"quiet and leave in the room."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1487.045,"endTime":1491.034,"body":"You know, who, um,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1487.045,"endTime":1491.034,"body":"Dan Lyon, he was sort of like"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1491.034,"endTime":1493.144,"body":"the fake Steve jobs for years."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1493.334,"endTime":1495.0240000000001,"body":"He was one of the writers"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1493.334,"endTime":1495.0240000000001,"body":"on Silicon Valley."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1495.0240000000001,"endTime":1496.144,"body":"He's written a number of books."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1496.4940000000001,"endTime":1499.044,"body":"So his last book is STFU."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1499.414,"endTime":1500.304,"body":"That's the name of it."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1500.5040000000001,"endTime":1503.614,"body":"And he basically says I talk"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1500.5040000000001,"endTime":1503.614,"body":"like crazy and I really needed"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1503.614,"endTime":1506.624,"body":"to STFU and to editorialize,"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1503.614,"endTime":1506.624,"body":"I hardly ever mentioned his"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1506.624,"endTime":1509.454,"body":"name, but I think Elon Musk"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1506.624,"endTime":1509.454,"body":"would benefit if he filed that"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1509.454,"endTime":1511.664,"body":"a little bit more close, he'd"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1509.454,"endTime":1511.664,"body":"benefit himself and others."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1512.2340000000002,"endTime":1514.554,"body":"And possibly the Tesla stock"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1512.2340000000002,"endTime":1514.554,"body":"price forget Twitter/X or"},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1514.554,"endTime":1515.4940000000001,"body":"whatever it's called now."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1516.0040000000001,"endTime":1516.394,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1516.394,"endTime":1518.914,"body":"Well, that is all we"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1516.394,"endTime":1518.914,"body":"have time for today, Bob."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1518.914,"endTime":1520.2440000000001,"body":"I want to thank"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1518.914,"endTime":1520.2440000000001,"body":"you for joining us."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1520.964,"endTime":1521.934,"body":"Thank goodness."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1521.934,"endTime":1523.374,"body":"We have time to be quiet."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1523.584,"endTime":1524.204,"body":"Thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Bob Sutton","startTime":1524.2240000000002,"endTime":1525.064,"body":"Nice to talk to you, David."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1525.124,"endTime":1525.7540000000001,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1525.7540000000001,"endTime":1528.2740000000001,"body":"And listeners, if you want to"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1525.7540000000001,"endTime":1528.2740000000001,"body":"keep up with all things people,"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1528.2740000000001,"endTime":1531.534,"body":"operations, and HR, and you're"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1528.2740000000001,"endTime":1531.534,"body":"not already subscribed to our"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1531.534,"endTime":1533.2340000000002,"body":"newsletter, head on over to"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1531.534,"endTime":1533.2340000000002,"body":"peoplemanagingpeople.com/subscribe"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1535.5040000000001,"endTime":1536.2540000000001,"body":"and get signed up."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1537.054,"endTime":1540.344,"body":"Until next time, book a spa"},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1537.054,"endTime":1540.344,"body":"day, drink some hot cocoa."},{"speaker":"David Rice","startTime":1540.5240000000001,"endTime":1540.954,"body":"Be well."}]}