Sleazy or Soulful? Our Take on NLP, Persuasion and Coaching Ethics 🤔

Hey legend 👋

This weeks episode is your official permission slip to build a business that doesn’t give you the ick.

You know what I’m talking about:

👉 The weird sales call tactics that feel like a performance
👉 The cringey way to "handle objections"
👉 The coaching scripts that promise “results” but miss the soul
👉 The mentors who seem more invested in their Stripe screenshots than your growth

Yeah. That.

This week, The Mind School School Consellor, Courney, & I sit down to chat about the stuff nobody talks about enough:


💭 Why some coaching feels off (and what to do about it)
💭 The darker side of NLP, and how to practice it ethically
💭 Red flags to watch for when choosing a mentor or program
💭 Why you don’t need to “fix” anyone to be a powerful coach
💭 The missing piece of the coaching puzzle that we teach inside The Mind School (that no one else does)

If you’ve ever wondered what makes The Mind School Method different, this episode will show you.


Spoiler:

 It’s not scripts.

 It’s not formulas.

 It’s not “do this, say that.”

 It’s real tools, taught with real heart.


Whether you’re deep in the coaching game or just getting started, this episode is gonna shift something in you.


🎧 [Listen now] 


🔥 And if it hits… come chat to Court about joining us this June in Perth. No pitch. Just a convo.

Book your call now.


Big love,

Breanna x

As always, please don't forget to hit Subscribe! xxx

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Music. Welcome to the mind school, the classroom for your mind and soul, where we design our lives from the inside out. Here you will find a human first approach to life, business and relationships, to create freedom, growth and constant evolution through mindset, emotional intelligence, leadership and connection to self. I'm your host, Breanna may educator, CEO mindset and business mentor, and my mission is to teach the things we were never taught at school so that no dream is left on the pillow and no purpose left unfulfilled. Here, you can expect a lot of laughs and thought provoking conversations as we squeeze every drop of juice from this beautiful, precious, crazy thing called life. Both mics are on. Oh, we've done it. Oh, my goodness. Oh my God, we've done it. So if you're watching on YouTube, fam, we've just been sitting here for, like, what, an hour, an hour, trying to figure out the tech that goes into recording with two mics. We are I'm currently triple parked. I have three mics hooked up. Tonight, we are going through a skill set, up, level up level. Stretching our window, stretching our window of tolerance, because I fucking hate tech things, but we're here, and we made it happen. Made it work. Hopefully go off. Hopefully you're actually listening to this. And I just did a post yesterday about my big fails in business, and one of them was like, hit the fucking record button. Like, how many times have you done something where you've, I don't know, recorded a podcast, and then you're like, Oh, cool. That wasn't recording so many times, so many times. And now I always have, like, someone in my coaching containers, in my group, course, and they're like, um, Courtney, should this be recording? And I like, Thank you. Thank you, actually, thank you, Anika. Yeah, Anika always helps me with the things that I've forgotten. So Anika, I know you're probably listening. Thank you. Every coaching container needs a you literally, literally. So we have been co working. Courtney is if you haven't already, if you haven't seen, if you don't know. Courtney is the mind school counselor, my support coach. She's also the yin to my Yang. And even right now, as I start talking about it, Simba started wagging his tail because she's he's probably feeling all your love. Courtney is the yin to my Yang. She's the coaching support person in the mind school. And we co work quite frequently. And recently we were having a chat as we were co working, and we were just talking about, like, X reputations of NLP, a reputation of the coaching industry. Obviously, both of us are coaches. We have our own coaching businesses, and so we thought this was a really cool thing to have a chat about different x and ethics, I think, within the coaching industry, because it's something that we're quite passionate about. So why justice? The sense of justice. It's like we just I understand why some people have got a bit of that. Ick from the industry. I've been burned myself, but I've also seen it change lives. Coaching has changed my life. I've seen it change hundreds of my students and our students lives. So there's both sides, but I thought we'd start with, like, what's your journey into coaching? And did you have any sort of x or anything when you started? Oh, my gosh, so much, so much. I remember when I first got into the coaching world, and like, in your energy as well, and you like, froth, NLP. And I was always like, NLP grows. Um, again, from like, own experiences, like I dated somebody who would whose favorite book was Awaken the Giant by Tony Robbins, who was a now diagnosed sociopath. And Oh, see, I'm gonna get I'm gonna get defensive, because I love the man. I love him, not Tony Robbins, you love my ex, that's concerning. Sorry, I do not love your eggs. Sorry, yeah, no, and he is me defending Tony Robbins. No, not yours. He loved Tony Robbins so much. Loved his books and would intentionally read his books and use those use the NLP tools to manipulate people, especially to manipulate the women that it was dating, and was very open about it, and would intentionally be like, Oh my gosh, I was trying this on this girl. I was trying this technique on this girl, and it was so amazing and things like that. So I was like, these tools you in the hands of the wrong people can be used to absolutely break break people down. And it wasn't just the NLP. I mean, it was associate path as well. It was the other thing. So I think I came from that when people were talking about Tony Robbins, and I was like, oh, danger, danger. Yeah. And then what was really interesting is we found, like, after the mind school and going through the workbooks, and I'm like, I know this stuff. I know all of this. And I realized. That this is how my dad raised me, and this is what he taught me, and that he actually used to teach sales seminars and all these sort of things, and teaching people how to be in their power as a salesman. And he was using all these things and just taught me. And I was like, Oh no, this is just connection, and this is engaging with people, and this is bringing people to understand your side. So it was really interesting that I had these two polarities, someone who I deeply respected and knew had so much integrity and so much integrity in their sales and were very successful what they do, my dad. And then the other polarities, the sociopath intentionally using it to manipulate and essentially abuse women. And I was like, oh, okay, let me find the middle ground. And I think, like, you're the middle ground, like, Oh, it's beautiful. Actually, it's it can be a really beautiful technique. But I think if we're just being like, yes, NLP, always, all the time, and we're not talking about how people can use it as a way to manipulate in a toxic way, I think it's like when we turn a blind eye, and that's why I love how would the mind school Breanna shadow work? Because everything right? Everything has its shadow, everything has its shadow. And I think that sometimes in the industry and in the coaching industry, there's not as much discussion around the shadow when it comes to NLP and using NLP, and that's where it gets a bit murky for me. I agree with that, actually, and that's why, when I was building the curriculum for the mind school, I was like, you can't really do the mindset and the NLP work alone, because if you're not understanding of shadow and ego and manipulation and wounding and you're using it for using it for shady purposes. It's actually unethical, and because at the end of the day, NLP is very much when you can tell people who have studied NLP, right, like you can see it, you can feel it, if you've attuned to it like I bet this person studied NLP, and it is often about the language, both verbal, non verbal, of connection, slash persuasion, slash influence, rapport building, and so it can be used. Like for me, I was always like, why wasn't I taught this when I was a teacher, because it helps you to build rapport with people and find common ground and make people feel seen, and all of this stuff that I think, oh my gosh, like in a classroom, magical, magical. And I think a lot of people are actually unconsciously quite good at this anyway. But for those who are like, you know, socially awkward, or feel really uncomfortable in social scenarios, or going out dating and feeling like, how do I connect with people without being awkward. NLP, is so powerful because it helps you understand humans and build rapport, and it can be done in very ethical ways. But then there's like, you said the way, where it's like, it's actually just for pure manipulation, and I've heard it used on like, sales calls, and as an example, sales calls as an example, where it's that full bro energy, and it's like, it almost turns in to a little bit of, like, gaslighting. Yeah, have you seen that? Like, I've seen that. And I think that this is something that I'm so passionate about, because I have seen that, and I've seen that happen to people that I know, and I've had it talked about, and people who do get burned by the coaching industry, is they're like, I was I? They essentially say, like, I felt manipulated, manipulated to in financially invest in something that destabilized me, because that it was that they were using those NLP tactics to move people around their money concerns, but in a way that it's like when that person entered the container, they were then entering it with such a stressed out nervous system, because, as we know, like security is one of the human needs. You need security, yeah, safety. So they're entering it feeling so insecure, because they're constantly stressed around money and finances while they're in there. And they're like, this has to have a financial payoff as quickly as possible, because I can barely make ends meet. And if you're entering a container like that where it's like, it's so fun, you're like, it's such an overstretch of your of your finances, it's, I feel it's almost like impossible to learn and truly receive in that way, because all your body is is in it's like, in that fight and fly and freeze response, you're not actually taking. You can't learn and you can't integrate, because you're just so edge. And that's something that I've seen to be a bit of an ick with the with bringing NLP into sales calls, especially, it's like, well, you can just NLP them around their financial reframe everything. Reframe everything, handle every objection. Sometimes it's actually not a genuine, yeah, sometimes it's a genuine. I actually remember my brother was on a sales call once, and he was quite interested, like he was genuinely quite interested in this program. I know the guys studied NLP, because I could hear it. And my brother was saying at the time, like he was a uni student, he was actually a uni student. And. Quite stretched, like doing a teaching degree of all things, because, and you know, that means going on prac for six, 810, weeks at a time, working full time with little kids, not being paid that whole time. And yet, he was also wanting to continue his personal development, blah, blah, blah, and on the sales call, when my brother sort of said, Yep, I'm definitely keen. I want to do it. It's going to be not right now, because I've got a prat coming up. It was like, Oh, well, you don't want it bad enough, bro. And I was like, and he instantly, Travis was like, that pushed me away, because, actually, I was ready. And then he went, want this on this sales call. And I've heard this too. It's like, well, what about a credit card? Have you thought about a credit card? Have you thought about, you know, all these different things that they push back on. Well, you don't want it bad enough. And it's like, is there some truth to that? Yes, I do believe the things that we want the most, we make happen. We just do. We find a way. But also, like you said, if it's pushing someone into dysregulation and they feel like they were manipulated, I love the quote, the way that you feel, generating money is how you will feel receiving it. So for me, one of my personal things is like, I will never, ever push to the point where I feel like, where people have been pushed out of their power. Like, yes, you can ask questions. Yes. You can be like, you know, making sure that it's not just coming from fear, and you can help them to dissolve fear, but if they've been pushed outside of their power, it's no longer ethical. And if they're going into actual, actual scarcity and nervous system dysregulation, I don't think it's the best. I don't think I would want to build a coaching business like that. I just think it would feel icky, no. And I've been in containers where you can feel that, oh yeah, and it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good to be a participation, like, to be a participant in a container like that, because so many of the questions that people are asking are so deeply rooted in, like, fear based things, that you can then feel it, and then you start like, you know, if that ripple effect that happens. It's like you start feeling that scarcity, you start getting into those fear cycles and things like that. And if the facilitator doesn't understand that scarcity and the human needs and shadow work and things like that, and doesn't know how to support people who are in a like a fear based state, then it can just start to spiral the group, and then all of a sudden that person will disappear, and it's like, oh, let's not talk about why they left. And it's just awkward, rose and so much pressure, then for the coach, because it's like, they're they're like, I need to make this work. This must work. And it just feels absolutely horrible. So I would say, that's one of the ways I would say that NLP can be used in beautiful ways and manipulative ways. And manipulation, of course, can be like positive persuasion, or it can be unethical control. Another one that I think about like a huge technique within NLP, and something that I actually love, one of my favorite techniques to watch students learn and even using for myself, is like to change and activate a state really, really intentionally. So in NLP, we do what, like an anchor, for example. We teach people how to create anchors, and that is so powerful, like the mind school anchor, that's wow, like by day six, it gives me goosebumps. It gives me absolute goose bumps to watch. And there's a few techniques where we use anchors to change a client's emotional state when needed, like in an intentional way, change their state, get them emotionally attached to an outcome which is going to make them more likely to achieve the goal. And we've seen this play out in the most magical ways, like there's so many ways, and I know for my self, using one or two of these techniques on myself is genuinely what made me start my business, grow my business, and then build the mind school. I was doing this technique on myself again and again and again, which is called the clap pattern, but another way that I see NLP and the state change and anchors and all of that being used in really icky ways is when, where, when people become too good at quickly changing their state to the point where now they've actually become exceptionally good emotional bypasses. Yes, they just bypass their emotions because they're so quick to reframe. And I did this when I started to have the idea of building the mind School of I thought it would be all NLP and mindset, but I got to my own personal part of the journey where I was like, wait, I was actually so good at reframing, so good at changing my state, such a good student of NLP that I did that for so long. And I realized actually I need to now go down the other side of the spectrum, feel things, be with it, be with the emotion. Not change my state. Actually sit in this quote, low vibe, actually not give it a reframe. Actually, it is just fucked, and I'm allowed to feel fucked, and I'm allowed to be upset, and I'm like, all of these things. And so that's another way that I think. Yeah, it can get a bad rap, and it can be called, like, toxic positivity and all of that. And that's another that's a story for another day. But yeah, would you like, is that something that you also have had experience with? Yeah, I find that they're the people that come and work with me, because they're like, I've been going, I've been doing all the NLP, and I've been changing my state for so long that they're like, Why do all of a sudden, I have burnout. I can't feel anything. Why can't I feel anything? All these good things are happening. I'm hitting all these goals, and I feel nothing. And then the people come and work with me because they're like, I'm numb. I don't feel anything. I'm not connected with my partner, with my kids. I'm just not connected at all. Or it's like, or it's I feel nothing, and then I have these big reactions, and it's like, yeah, when you're in that time of just changing a state and changing a state and changing a state and changing a state, it's like, well, when are you feeling the feelings? Yeah, like 100% I use the NLP anchors to change my state all of the time, in the moment when needed. But then I'll go back to the feeling later, when I have the capacity, when I have the time to feel it, and I will let myself be in it and feel that, because, yes, 100% we can. You may have a board meeting in 10 minutes, and you feel like crying, and you can't cry 10 minutes before your board meeting, yeah, and you need something to get into that empowered state, to get that clarity of mind and all of those sort of things. So that's when, like, the anchoring is so powerful, but that cry doesn't go anywhere, that that need to cry, that that heartache, that disconnection from self, or like big overwhelm of emotions, as we know, like nothing, like suppressing, like Wooding it down, changing it, changing your state, doesn't clear the energy. It just just puts a lid on it for a moment, so then it comes out when you really don't want to really do the people who don't deserve it exactly. So that's where, like, with my clients, I'm like, okay, beautiful, so if you felt like crying before your board meeting, when did you cry? And they're like, What do you mean? I'm like, Well, yeah, I was over. I didn't care anymore. I'm like, Well, you did you do? I was like, okay, beautiful, there was that past version of you that did care. So give them that space to feel and to process, and then that's it. It's like, very quickly, where clients like, Oh, I just I'm no longer ruled by my emotions. It's so funny when people come to the mind school and they're like, I don't I just don't have feelings. I don't feel feelings. I don't feel my feelings that much. I don't have feelings. I'm not emotional. And it's, it's funny, we say all the time, and I'm like, it makes me giggle, because I'm always like, the people who don't have feelings are so much more emotionally driven, driven than me. I'm like, Yeah, I'm a very emotional woman, but I am not ruled by my emotions. I am not led by my emotions, because I'm I feel them and then they dissipate and I release them, and then I'm like, okay, cool. I have that clarity of mind. I have that clarity of energy. I have more of that window of tolerance to make a decision from rather than being like, oh my gosh, I'm so full of everything, I'm suppressed that you get kicked into that fear state and you make decisions from there. Yeah. So important, so important. So obviously, like, we know what to look out for. But if there's people that are listening who are like, Fuck, I'm scared. I want to invest, or I don't know how I feel about the coaching space now, or whatever, like, what would you say people need to look out for? What are the red flags that you've seen when investing or just seeing the way that people hold space that maybe isn't so safe or isn't ethical. Like, what are the red flags? I would say, people who don't let you question. Red flag, oh, if you can't question something, and this is coming from the girl who grew up in a cult, if you cannot question something, huge red flag, yeah. Huge red flag. Huge red flag. That's a massive cult. That's a cult. That is a cult if you can't question, like, there are, there are seven things. I can't remember the thing, but they, you know, all the studies done in cults are seven things that mean something is a cult. Not being able to question is one of them. So that's why I'm always like, that's a big one. Yeah, that's a big one, if you don't have the space. And also, if they're constantly deflecting as well. If everything is a constant, refL reframe straight away, and there's no space for them to let you go that little bit deeper or to feel it, and if it's shamey, like we said, Yeah, shame, shame. With those sort of examples, with the finances, well, obviously you don't want it that bad, like straight away, that being response, instead of no empathy, no empathy, that, for me, is red flag, yeah, when there's no empathy. And also, yeah, no empathy for people being in different circumstances and different times and different seasons of their life and having different capacities. If there's not that sort of space agree in the conversations, and it's just that sort of almost like dictatory, yeah, energy, then I would just be aware, especially if you're somebody who's a little bit of a people pleaser, and your trauma response is to Fauci Yeah, I would just be aware of that before going into sales calls and things like that. It's like, okay, are you? Have you done something to ground yourself before the call? Did you know. Notice that you went into a bit of a people pleaser energy. And this is something for me that I know a lot of sales coaches teach. They're like, get the payment on the push them to make the payment right better there on the call. That for me, I'm always like, Oh, that doesn't feel ethical, because I with everything. I like to give my I like to let myself sleep on decisions. I like to give myself some space to be. Like, is this decision coming from a grounded pace? Have I checked in with myself? Do I trust myself, and when I mean somebody, I do want to have a chat to my husband. Have you heard like, don't let them go chat to their husband. Don't let them and it's like, what like, oh, maybe it is a family decision. Maybe I do want to chat this through. It's, yeah, I get that's the thing. My husband is like, such a supporter of anything I do. Whenever I've been like, I want to do this course or anything like that, he's like, go for it. But as our with anything, we always talk everything through because we're making decisions as a family unit, and if this is something that is going to need extra support, especially mom case, like, Okay, if the calls are not during school hours. Yeah. Then their times that I'm either gonna need a babysitter or I'm gonna need my husband, like, to be like, is there anything we have on that night? They're discussions that can be had. Yeah, the thing is, is like, I feel like my husband talks me into signing up. If this is gonna make you, like, better about yourself and happy about yourself. Go for it. Sometimes I'm like, oh, you know, I'll be talking myself out of it with being like, Oh, maybe I shouldn't invest in myself and stuff like that. And he's like, do it, yeah. It's pretty cool. On the red flags, another thing that I've noticed, and again, like, I just feel like you see it so clearly, once you've done and studied shadow work, like, yeah, Shadow Work, everyone comes to the what we found is that people come to the mind school because they're like, I want to learn NLP, I want to learn mindset, blah, blah, blah, and they walk away going, actually a quote. I think it was a quote that we've got from Kelly. I came in for NLP and Shadow Work just slapped me in the fucking face. She's got the best accent, but like, Shadow Work is what actually blows things apart, because you can see shady shit going on. And for me, when I see almost this coach or the facilitator, the leader of the program, actually pedestalizes themselves, like it's this real energy of like you're lucky to be in my presence, or that real language. And of course, there's truth to that you are lucky that people are lucky to be in your presence, to be like, learning from your wisdom, and all of that. But if there's this egoic can't be seen to have faults, can't be seen in their weakness, can't be seen to be vulnerable, can't be seen as even like a peer. It's like, I'm above you in some way, shape or form. That, to me, is kind of red Flagg. Also, what I have learned is that some coaches are extremely good marketers, extremely good marketers, but not necessarily skilled coaches. And it's like, oh, like, I've had my own experience where it's and this is no shade to the person. It's just they, they, they write incredibly well, but then inside it's like, there's actually no coaching skill. And so that would be another thing that I would look at, is like, beyond the marketing and the copy that moves you, is there testimonials? Is there clients that stay for years and years and years? Are there actual transformations that other people are saying? Yeah, I had this transformation, not just the landing page and the copy made me feel something so I got FOMO and needed it. It's like, is there actually proof beyond the really great copy and marketing? Yes, absolutely. And I think something that can be really powerful as well is like, ask if you can reach out to the people who have done it. Yeah. So like, for those of you who are listening that are curious about the mind school, message us and be like, is there anyone to talk to our students? Reach out. We tag them. We tag them and everything. Yeah, I'd rather you teach other students anyway, because they'll they're the ones that had the experience exactly only to speak as the teacher. It's bloody great, but I'm biased, of course, exactly. Yeah, we'd rather that. So definitely ask speak to other people, make sure that the things are actually like there's evidence to support the claims. Definitely look at the pedestalizing, or someone who can't can't see their own shadows, can't admit their own faults, can't show their own wobbles. That, to me, is someone who's built something that's very much still in the ego, and that will play out in weird ways. That'll play out in all sort of weird ways. Yes, so much. Yeah. And again, I think this is that piece of this is why I think I'm so big on teaching people to get into their bodies, because it's like you're the an amazing book to read is called the gift of fear, and it talks about how this, there's been so many like, and there's so many examples of people being like, Oh, I just didn't feel right about that person. And everybody else thought they were wonderful, but I didn't feel right, but I ignored it. And then, you know, terrible things happened. It's like, our body is insanely intelligent. It's insanely intelligent. And also, like. Like biologically set up to be aware when something isn't right and we are in danger. But if you are not in your body at all, you're constantly living in your head. You are in that, you know, in that go, go, go, energy, in that fight mode, in that free state, you know, you're numb, all of those things. You're not actually in your body. You will miss those little giggles of Actually, this isn't right for me, and it sometimes it doesn't make logical sense. Like everybody's talking this, everybody's talking about this fast enough. I've had this, I've seen this experience as well, where it's like, everybody was like, this is the coaching program to be into. And I was like, Oh, I don't, I don't know. Something just doesn't feel right about it. And people like, No, you should be in. It's amazing. And then six months later, it was, yeah, all of my friends were like, wow, I wish I'd ever did that that was such, like, such a drain on my finances, such a drain on myself and all my emotional self and all of these sort of things. Are like, Wow, I feel quite definitely impacted by being in that. And I was like, I knew it something, and I'm so glad. I'm like, it didn't make logical sense for me not to sign up. Like, logically, it made more sense for me to go with it, all of the recommendations that are there, but it didn't feel right. And I'm someone who honors that, honors that, knowing I'm laughing because you tried to join the mind school, and I said no, but I knew, I knew, maybe my body knew deep down, but actually, you're not going to be here as a student. So funny as the, like, the first founding round Courtney wanted to join, and I don't know, I just rejected, I kind of rejected you as a student. I was like, no, like, just there was something. There was just something in me that was like, it's not for you, babe. Like, I don't know, and I can't explain it, but now I know why. So that's another, like, reverse example. It's like, reverse card, but yeah, that's how it was. Just like, Nah, that didn't feel like you needed to be there. And now I know that it's like, actually you were there as my support person, which wasn't planned, but yeah, super interesting. And that's like, as well, for those of you who are coaches and who are doing group coaching programs and stuff like that, like you can say, No, the application process is on both sides. And that's like, if you're in a regulated state, yeah, and not, like, desperate for money, so you're just letting anyone else in. You can make decisions like that. Breanna could have been like, I need the money. Let's just say yes to Courtney coming in, because I need that, especially as a founding like, it was a bait around I needed all the people in, but I just No and on that. That's something that I think is the best, one of the best pieces of advice I can give to aspiring coaches, startup coaches, people who are in the beginning phase have a part time job, because then you're not in scarcity. You're not in this place of like I need to say yes and take everyone's money. You're dysregulated. You're saying yes to the wrong people. And when you say yes to the wrong people, business starts to feel really draining, because you end up working overtime for the wrong people, and having a part time job is that whole like, ugh, whatever. Like, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter. I can do it slowly and take the pressure off yourself or the shame of having a part time job. Like, who gives a fuck? I had a part time job when my business was making over six figures a year, and I was loving the job, and so I never and that, I think because of that, I wasn't doing shady shit, saying yes to the wrong people taking your money just because I needed it or wanted it. It was like, actually, no, it's not the right fit. And that makes things feel way better, yes, and I think as well, it just shows that you are in that integrity. I mean, I think integrity is such a buzzword. And on the socials and in the content world, especially when it comes to coaches, you know, show up in your integrity. And it is sort of that piece of like, well, what does that actually mean for you? And with those examples of, you know, not just saying yes to everybody, even though there's that, that part of you that knows that it's not a fit and all of that. That is, what am I? I always think that integrity is not always something that is shown and can be seen. It's more how you feel. You feel if somebody is in their integrity. Yeah, it's not necessarily the content that they're putting out or the things that they're saying. It's like, oh, how you feel when you're in their presence, when you're consuming their things, when you're reading their testimonies, when you're watching their testimonies, when you're talking to their clients and things like that, you're like, Okay, no, I really feel this person is the embodiment of what they're teaching Hunter, not just, you know, they've they've got the chat Jamie teacher write something that sounds like it would be good. So true. So we've spoken a bit about ethics, we've spoken a bit about x let's look at the other side of it, because coaching is, to me, also, like everything powerful also has a dark side. Everything incredible also has, like, everything has its polarity, right? And so in the coaching industry, yes, there is some darkness. There are some people who have gotten into the space to manipulate, to make quick money. It's there definitely, fucking is. Every industry has a bad egg. Like every industry has a bad egg. There's bad teachers that I used to be like, fucking lead the system already. You know, there's bad lawyers that there's all, there's bad in everything, but there's equally amazing. I. Amazing stuff, and we've had the privilege of watching what happens in the coaching space and how it can transform lives. So why don't you share like something that you've seen, something one of your favorite experiences, or how the coaching industry why you've chosen to stay in it after all this time, what's been the net positive. Oh my gosh, so much. I feel like I could talk for hours about this. And I think that something that I've seen, especially my in my clients, is how they can how people can go from feeling so disconnected, feeling so disconnected from their self, feeling so disconnect, feeling so disconnected from their kids, feeling so disconnected from their partner, and just like being like, Is this really what life is? Is this really like what life is? Am I putting all of this effort and doing all of this work and I feel nothing, or I feel numb, or I feel disconnected and I feel like it's impacting all the things what used to bring me joy? And it's interesting, because coaching is just essentially bringing you back to your own power. That's what coaching is. Yeah, it's just bringing you back to your own power. And I had a client just yesterday being like, Oh, you just asked the questions that just get me. She's like, made me feel uncomfortable, yeah, but she's like, they just, they just get me there. They get me to that point where everything just clicks. And maybe things that were things that I knew or things that I'd heard before but had never really landed, landed lands in me so much that I actually start doing something about it, that I actually start making the changes and taking the action that changes things and shifts things. And I think that's how powerful coaching can be is it can move you from being stuck and second guessing and doubting yourself and being like, is this really all life is to in the matter of months or even months? So sometimes in days, sometimes in one session, somebody can have that to the point where they're just like, lit up, taking action, making changes. I think we see this every single round of the mind school. Which blows my mind is people are starting to implement the things they're learning straight away. They're at the mind school, and they're already, like, my relationships are getting deeper by supporting clients. They're supporting clients. They're like, everything as well. It's all the changes are already happening while they're still in the midst of it, while they're still there. And that's why I love the coaching industry so much, is because when you are in that sort of like ethicalness of being like, it's not about me as the coach. It's not about me. Hey, coaches, it's not about you. It's not about it's not about you, not about you. It's not about you. It is about my clients always. Yeah, it's about them always, and where they want to be and how they want to feel, and the impact that they want to make and the connections that they want to have. And when you're grounded in that, then it's so beautiful, because everything that you're doing and everything that you're asking is helping them, yeah, trust themselves more. I actually want to make myself redundant. Redundant. Yeah, that is my that's my intention. Always with every single coaching program is I want to make myself redundant. I have clients that have been in containers with me for over three years, but they don't need me. It's just their space that they have once a fortnight or once a month that they're like, it's my space for me to just come back to myself. It's my space for me to reset, to riff on to ask some of those big questions, to get me thinking again, to get me in that mindset again, to get me looking at my life a little bit different, friend, and then I go, but they can do that for themselves. And oftentimes, if I'm not available to them, they do, yeah, because but they want the space to be held, which is beautiful as well, but they don't need me, yeah. And if you've built a business, because you like to feel needed, and this is what, unfortunately, a lot of coaches do. They're in the archetype, essentially of like the wounded healer. And when you create a business off your desire to feel needed or important or special or popular, it actually it's not coming from the most grounded place. Again, you've got to do shadow work to know what your stuff is, but what you said about clients and how quickly you can see them change like the net positive for me is like we've seen families come back together, babies born out of love after the mind school, when you know marriages were on the brinks clients who go and then get these $200,000 contracts because they finally had the confidence in themselves to go for it. And for me, I always think back to if it weren't for my first coach, who I remember people saying, Oh, they've taken you for a ride. You spent 10 grand on what like you're so and I'm so glad that I invested that money. I'm so glad that actually the salesperson on the phone did use their, you know? NLP, in a great way, I must say, it was used really well. They got me thinking about how my life could be different. They checked to make sure I actually could make the payments I could. I was just scared. I was just scared. And he called that out on the sales call. And it's like, you know what? I am scared. But actually, this is not going to put me into scarcity. Let's go so. So he used ethical, NLP, ethical coaching methods for sales conversion got me in. And I always think if I didn't invest in that coach, I think I'd still be in the classroom really fucking frustrated that I haven't done the thing that I want to do, that I'm not teaching the thing that I really want to teach. And because of that, other people wouldn't have had the transformations that they've had, and it was because of one coach, and it was sometimes just one thing that he said. It wasn't even anything groundbreaking. It was just this constant mantra that he'd always say that lives in my head now rent free and honestly, changed who I was from the cell like from like, my whole being changed from this one coach, and my life's different because of the coaching industry. I've seen hundreds of other coaches change lives and my clients and your clients, and so there are so many beautiful things that come from the coaching space. It's just that it has to be a balance of ethics and integrity, I believe, for it to really land, feel good and and create a sustainable business too? Yes, absolutely. And I think that's it. It's like part of that, like that sustainability is building something on solid foundations. And when you're building something from that, that place of being in scarcity, it's not being built on solid foundations. And again, that comes back the pushing people with them, the financial things, like, sometimes that's it, where clients are like, Oh, you're just scared. Actually, it's not going to put you in a state of feeling deeply unsafe because you can't pay for your food or your rent or whatever it is. Actually, you're just a little bit scared. That's so is so different to have those conversations and to again be asking the right questions, asking the powerful questions that are getting people to that state of realizing, oh, like you did. Oh, actually, okay, I can't, I can't actually afford this. I just need a boss up. I just need a boss up. And, yeah, so I feel like we could talk about this forever, and I feel like we might, we might actually do some mini series. Yeah, we've been talking about potentially doing, like, I don't know, like a coaching 10 minute thing on a Monday or something. So we're thinking about that. As you can see, this is all very new, and we've had to hit stop, and the mics are fucked up many times, but we've done it, and I think this will be an ongoing thing, especially for people in the coaching space, in the personal development industry and in leadership roles. There's so much we can speak on. So much to wrap up. We are currently enrolling the mind School for the next round of Perth, which is happening June 22 to 27th we've got some legends that are joining already. Is there anything that you would say to anyone who wants to know about the mind school? One of the main questions I get is, do I need to be a coach? And that's something that I'll let you riff on, because you've seen every single round now, yeah, no, the answer is no. The answer is no, you don't need to be a coach, because I think it's like such a piece on leadership and these, these tools that you learn at the mind school and the transformations that happen. I mean, not even everyone that has done the mind school so far has been a coach, but it's just being able to understand yourself and understand others at a deeper level, and to be able to ask powerful questions, to hold space for people, to have those powerful moments, to make changes, to take action in their lives, for themselves and for their kids. It's one of those things. And I know it sounds again, reach out. Reach out to the people who have done the mind school, because you might be like, you run it, you're biased. But really, there's a reason why this needs to be everywhere. We're like. This needs to be in the corporate space. This needs to be in schools. This needs to be a part of the parenting process and all those sort of thing, because it is just essentially helping people just understand themselves better be able to lead themselves and lead others in a powerful ethical, ethical underlying highlight, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So if you are interested in joining the mind school, we do NLP. We do NLP in a very Breanna focused way, like we've heard a lot of feedback from people who have already done their NLP training and then come to the mind school after what they love and what they highlight as the main difference is it's not a prescription where you have to follow a script, and it has to be this way, it's I teach principles so that you can apply it with blending Shadow Work and emotional Intelligence, emotional embodiment and doing it in very ethical ways, because we need both sides, both sides of the coaching toolkit, to be able to really get long, lasting transformation. So even if you've already done NLP, or you're interested in NLP, I think coming to the mind school is so much different, for sure, than other programs, also being in person. It's the best six days. I'm already counting down till June. But yeah, if you're interested in NLP, Shadow Work, emotional embodiment, the things that we also we spoke about today and how to run a business that feels ethical and grounded and sustainable and doesn't give you the ick. We've both done it. We've built very successful businesses without us having the. Or doing any of these tactics that we don't feel comfortable with, and we want you to do the same. So the coaching industry is the greatest gift of my life. It changed my life. It's it's just the best thing. It gives me this lifestyle that I have, which I love so much. I mean, it's a Thursday, and I've been at the beach, I've been at the gym, and now here I am, and you can build any kind of life, and you can help so many people in the process. So if you're interested, we'll put all the links in the show notes and in the descriptions, if you're watching on YouTube, if you've made it this far, thank you so much. And yeah, we'll probably be back here in the next few weeks, I reckon, yeah, can't wait, and that's it. We'll put a link. You can have a chat with me. You can pick my brain. You can ask all the questions you want. I'm definitely not a I have no aversion to questions being asked. No ask the questions. We don't do sales calls, like most people do sales calls. It's Courtney having a yarn. Courtney has chats, and then she's like, I love that person. And I'm like, Oh, that's so good. That's just the best. So, yeah, reach out if you're interested. We can't wait to have you, and we'll be back here probably next. Oh, no, month, I reckon, yeah, we'll chat soon. Thanks. Thank you for tuning in to the mind school podcast. It is a massive intention of mine to continue to grow this show, because the more the show grows, the better the guests get, and I know that is going to be so powerful for you listening. So if I could ask this massive favor, it would mean the world if you could please leave a review, hit the Follow button, or leave a rating on Spotify, so that we can continue to grow this show and bring you the juiciest, most thought provoking and expansive conversations through incredible guests. Thank you so much for tuning in, I'll see you next week. You.