Founded & Grounded

Virtually There: How Good Things Come to Businesses That Wait

October 18, 2021 Ollie Collard, Andrew Parsonage & Samantha Miles Season 3 Episode 2
Founded & Grounded
Virtually There: How Good Things Come to Businesses That Wait
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Show Notes Transcript

"If you have a great product, your business should succeed."

We meet Edgar Thoemmes, co-founder of Virtually There and Canton Tea, about how two very different businesses steadily grew and found their audiences.

Edgar describes the seismic impact of Covid (and how Virtually There anticipated the boom in flexible working), how taking the long term view can pay dividends, and being in a position to give something back to the founders of the future.

Presented by Andrew Parsonage, with expert analysis from Ollie Collard and Samantha Miles sifting through the latest reaction from Founded & Grounded listeners.


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mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Hello and welcome to Founded and grounded the podcast that takes the stories of established entrepreneurs and shares their wisdom on their way to establishing a successful business. Uh, we share the real world experiences with you that you might use them in your own business journey which ever stage you're at. Or if you just love a good business yard than this is the podcast for you. Very well. Welcome to you. Wherever you're listening to us, we're coming to you live almost from Bristol here in the UK, So wherever you are, whether you're around the corner or overseas, you're more than welcome to this episode two of Series three. I'm Andrew Passage, and joining me virtually across the ether somewhere a few blocks away is business. Start up Guru and international Thought leader Mr Ali coloured. Good evening, Ali. Good evening, Andrew. Wow. International Fort leader. My head has been blown. Well, everyone, everyone puts on their linked in profile these days, so why not use it here? So it wasn't good. Good to hear you. Suddenly we're not in the garage of Dreams tonight. We're actually virtually doing this. How are things with you, sir? Yeah, we're good. Thank you. My my wife went back to work following maternity leave last week. So I'm actually have now gone down to four days a week and I've got the little ones for a day, which is we've been amazing, actually, To be able to take time away from the business and spend it with the two little ones has been It's been fantastic and a few challenges along the way. But yeah, it's been a pleasure actually embracing the work life balance. Their good to hear just before we talk about this week's guest body since the last time we spoke, we had some good news regarding this particular podcast and its rankings in the UK startup podcast table, didn't we amazing news to find out Andrew, that we were selected in the top 20 UK based startup podcast and we actually came in at number two on that list. So I feel very privileged and an absolute pleasure that were actually reaching dizzy heights in the UK podcast startup market. And we just like to say a big thank you to our listeners and are featured founders and everyone who's come along on our journey so far. So here we go episode to, as we say, and later on. In this episode, we'll be hearing from Sam over in Social Media Corner. She's got your reaction to our previous episode and various of the things that you've been in touch with us about, So we'll be hearing from some shortly. But before then, obviously Ali, let's hear from this week's mystery guest entrepreneur. I caught up with bigger Thomas, who is co founder of Canton Tea and a services business called Virtually There. Excellent stuff. And the theme of this week's podcast is good. Things come to those who wait and all it is. A good reason for that isn't in this particular episode. There is, indeed, and we'll hear a bit more from Egger about why that's so pertinent in terms of his businesses. Journeys. Excellent. Well, let's crack on, then let's hear from the man himself. Ali, You called it with him just for the week, and we start at the beginning, of course. Firstly, Ali asked Good just to talk through the origins of his businesses and where things started out. I ran two businesses. The first business I started was Canton Tea. So we are a specialty tea company selling into luxury hospitality, a lot of the top London hotels and missions by restaurants, as well as running a small director consumer business. The second business is virtually there. Virtually there is a virtual office and call answering business. We support small businesses, often startups, I guess business services to help them get up and running. Really? So we we we've got offices across the UK, got nine offices now in all the major cities, so our customers can use those offices for their business address, and we would handle their post. And then we also would answer their phone calls, emails, live chats and that really is a kind of with an extension of their team. Like you said that obviously, quite two different businesses, one focusing on specialty tea and the other focusing on outsourced services. What is a product business and one is a service business. Is there anything any common friends that intertwine the two? And what was the reason for starting both businesses? I think virtually there was kind of bummed out of some of the issues that I was encountering with Canton, so I actually set virtually there up with my best friend Jack. And me and Jack have been friends since we were five. And actually, we we we both set up a business together when we were 11, going to Henry's Car Wash company. We've we've always been quite kind of entrepreneurial. Yeah, we set up virtually there together basically because we were both kind of experiencing the same issues with running the letting game that stressed that an agency and clanton t in that we were getting very kind of, like, bogged down and distracted by the kind of like, operational kind of detail we needed to focus our time on what was kind of important to those businesses, and that's driving that growth. And we both felt that we were kind of yeah, getting drawn into these kind of operational kind of issues, that we're probably not the best use of our time. So we kind of we kind of discussed that, and that's kind of where virtually there was born from, Really? You know, we identified that there is a need for these kind of support services to support young startup businesses. Yeah, we thought it would be a nice business to be in thought as a market there and yeah, we set it up, and 10 years later it's It's still there, starting to do quite well. No, actually. So going back to your first business centre, Canton T. How did you validate that? There was a need or demand for specialty tea in the UK? Well, the honest answer is we didn't and that was probably one of our first major mistakes. We made really both myself and my business partner, Jennifer in Canton. Tea came from. We come from very different backgrounds. I was kind of starting cancel. I was working as an analyst in in a bank, and Jen was a kind of copywriter, freelance copywriter, a major brands. And I think we were both kind of looking for something new, something that would would kind of give us that kind of creativity and that kind of drive that we that we won't get it from our our current careers. It all started with the product. Basically, it's a product that really kind of blew our minds, and it's a fantastic T that we were basically drinking for about 20 years. Jen's husband and my dad. Both were involved in the book trade and both travelled to Taiwan on business. And both of them were actually given this tea as a gift from a very famous professor in Taiwan. We, we, we, we we talked with John about it and decided. Actually, no, this is such a fantastic product. You know, it's kind of like no one in the UK at the time was kind of with drinking holy tea and definitely not kind of t of this kind of quality. And we kind of just jumped in as as I tend to do in business. It's quite funny story, really, because the first thing we did was we picked up the phone to Professor Lynn, who's professor who was given this T to us and asked him if we could buy some. And he said, Yeah, sure, sure, you know, you know and explained about the kind of the tea harvests and what it was available and the kind of quantities and he said, You have to you have to appreciate that. See, that you've been drinking is 2.5 £1000 a kilo. You have to put that into perspective for your listeners. If you were drinking that tea and I can't imagine a rental in London, it probably would be about £50 of pot. We didn't validate the market. We just had a product that we felt very, very passionate about, and we could have built a business around it. It took us a long time to to really get traction because of that. I mean, we spent the look for the 1st 5, 10 years of the business, and I'm still doing it now, really, like educating our customers. And that's I think that's the major problem with being that kind of early adopter is It's tough, you know, because you're having to kind of create your your your your kind of market and you're doing that by educators. So in terms of virtually then, we've spoken about how it all came about with Jack, when did you really see that that business was going to take off and the potential of it? I mean, we set the business up in 2000 and 12, and probably for the first kind of 345 years. It didn't really work, mainly because me and Jack were doing other projects We were working on Canton. We're working on the letting game and actually various other kind of projects, and I don't think we really gave it enough of a focus. And although, you know, although the business grew, I don't think it had enough enough direction, really. You know, we didn't really didn't really appreciate where where we were going, but it started it, really. It really started to work. Probably 2017, that kind of 2018. I think it's partly because we and founders focused more on the business, but also partly because the business environment was changing. People were starting to work a little bit more flexibly. Obviously, that accelerated hugely through the comment period. As soon as Covid hit, it skyrocketed. It was quite difficult, actually, to deal with that sudden surge in demand. And I think in terms of one of the lessons here that I'm kind of taking away is that in the early days of of your kind of start ups, both of them, in fact that you didn't really see that product market fit until several years later down the line, and I think if you've got a long term mindset of actually being in the business for a long period of time. If you're patient and I've got a long term vision, then it's proof that the businesses can build attraction. But not obviously instantly. I think if you look at what I think both businesses have in common is a great product. And I think if you've got a great product because it's a business and you you firmly believe in it, you know the business should succeed. Really, How would you pass on any words of wisdom to? I guess entrepreneurs struggling with something isn't quite right. They believe in the product and maybe the pricing isn't right or they haven't chosen the right customer. How would you encourage them to pivot an experiment with the business? Firstly, I think you just you need, you know, you need to believe in your product and you as an entrepreneur. I think that's like, absolutely critical, really. I think I have a bit of patience as well. Sometimes a lot of it is about time in you might have a great product, but you just might be just not approaching the market at the right time. But also you know, be prepared to adapt. We've kind of camped on as an example in the early is we? We did everything we sold T anyway, we could, you know, we went to food shows. We had any commerce site. We sold into restaurants and cafes. We did a big partnership with traditional Chinese medicine brand big retailers like Harrods. Literally. We tried every single channel we could we could come up with. Really? And eventually, you know, one or two of them stuck. Well, let's first talk to a business that's Egger established with someone else. Actually, this is Canton Tea, and this business on paper only shouldn't have really worked. They were importing staggeringly expensive to This was this was the premium end of the spectrum, like you say, on paper, importing such a premium product with a market that was very early and in its infancy in the UK On paper, as you say, that they had no right to succeed in those days. Obviously t as his coffee has come a long way in the time since. And now we're a nation of T. Well, I know there has been a national tea drinkers, but now sort of tea connoisseurs. Echo made an interesting point, which is about educating your customers. It's a case of look. Here's something you might like. Why don't you try it out? It was it was an unknown quantity. But therein lies a big risk because it's very, very well to say we're going to educate our customers. But, well, if they want to be educated, they're quite happy with other types of tea. It's quite risky approach. Only, like you say, it is a very risky approach, but I think they have this fundamental belief that the product was that good. There would be a market for it. So I don't actually think they did much validation of the business to realise whether it could be a business or not, and just kind of ploughed on with a gut instinct. But like you say, they have to spend a lot of time educating customers and waiting for the market to catch up. Obviously, they were innovating of a new product, and it was only a handful of those early adopters who came on that journey, so they had to be extremely patient, probably spend a lot of money on education and marketing and really waiting for the market to catch up with where their business is at in terms of the product. I guess there's a few times throughout the interview and we'll hear maybe him saying again later that if you've got a great product, your business should succeed. It's a It's a good long term view. He also spoke to a scenario that I'm sure a lot of people listening will recognise the fact that I was trying to build this business. He had spread himself quite thinly across a number of different areas, and I think this is where his old school friends came in as well, because I think they're both experiencing the same frustrations being spread quite thinly, that sort of distract them or didn't make it as focused as they could be. Definitely. And I think having those conversations with your peers who are in business is vitally important and obviously they were in the fortunate position that they knew each other extremely well and they can speak quite openly and honestly about their businesses and the direction it was going. I think the issue they were facing was really how do they extrapolate themselves out of the day to day running of the operational side of the business and spend more time working on the business rather than in it, really trying to focus in on what they're kind of core rocks or priorities were at that stage of the business to be able to focus on growth rather than getting caught up in the day to day well, luckily for them, and they were quite to know how lucky they were going to become. They did have another idea. This is virtually there, which was the virtual office supports business. This also took off steadily. But then the pandemic completely took them and everyone else by surprise and in their case, for the better. I think obviously, the massive disruption to the world of work and people having to work from home and still do business provided many opportunities for virtually there. Also, the fact that so many new businesses were started during the pandemic has meant that there's greater demand for obviously there services, that they're providing the general shift anyway towards the gig economy and people wanting to work for themselves as help. But obviously the pandemic has really sped up that growth. In a way, this is going quite interesting time now for them because how many people do decide to go back to the old ways of working? And, of course, they'll be vouching for Well, actually, there's no going back now and they're beautifully placed, a 100%. And I think they've got a good opportunity to be able to build up their team and their culture in a much different way. So eager later, we'll talk about the growth of their team and how he sees people working much more flexibly from home. I think that's going to be really interesting to how he grows virtually there and the team that supports them. Okay, well, Covid was to see their business take off in ways they couldn't have imagined. But it also presented its fair share challenges as well. And that's what we're gonna come onto now. Part two of the conversation with anger. And here? Ali asked, eager about some of the obstacles that they've had to overcome to reach where they are now. I mean, there's so many challenges in running the business out there, and they they keep coming at you, Really. Covid was a huge, huge challenge to both businesses. I mean, cantons market, the kind of hospitality sector shut down overnight, and frankly, there wasn't a lot we could do about it. We pivoted like most businesses did and actually went direct to consumer. You know, we reacted very quickly. You don't You don't replace your core business overnight, and, you know, I guess I was kind of fortunate that I had another business interest. What was the overall kind of guess? Net loss from from that that period, we actually didn't do any DTC business before David within, I think, a 2.5 week period committed to setting up a consumer brand, essentially building an e commerce website, readings on our packaging and kind of pushing it live. It was fairly successful. We managed to leverage our B two B business, but it was pretty catastrophic for us business. We went from turning over, you know, maybe 100 and £50,000 a month to let pretty less than £5000. Well, yeah. Frankly, we you know, we we we we would have gone gone under had it not been for the government support that kicked in and in terms of your kind of support network. Obviously, Jack has been fundamental in terms of your entrepreneurial journey and sharing those initial challenges. And that's obviously what VT was born out of. Who else kind of is in your corner that you lean on? I've always had a co founder, me and Jack, virtually there and Jan Canton, and I've always found that kind of relationship crucial. Really. It's a lonely place being being an entrepreneur and business owner. And I think having someone who is has invested as you is very different has a very different kind of outlook or skill. Set really, really helps. I think we've always had a chairman that count on. We wanted that kind of independent, non executive chairman role. That kind of role as well has been really important to me again. They just have, like, a very different perspective on the issues and actually helped me kind of look at that bigger, longer term picture and talking of strategic visions and mentoring. I know you've recently launched a scheme as part of virtually there, which is called the Young entrepreneur scheme. Me. Jack sat down really at the beginning of this year, right at the start of the pandemic, we were just having a chat about where we thought things might go. I guess we were both kind of in a stage in our kind of journeys where we felt like we wanted to give back. We've been supported by some great people over the years, and I think we felt that we wanted yet to really see if we could help give back and maybe support the next generation of young entrepreneurs. So we kind of we kind of set up this scheme that we launched in April, um, international scheme, that we would run it as a kind of competition and we would pick at the end of this five or six winners and we would support them with mentorship, but also maybe some more kind of practical support. So, you know, we could use our services that virtually there, for instance, or maybe some of our team within virtually there could could help support their businesses as well, through marketing or operational support or whatever. Really? We didn't really know what to expect. I mean, we've never we've never done anything like this. It was really, really successful, actually. I mean, we're very fortunate. That was picked up by a lot of press, and the response we had was amazing, really, way exceeded all of our expectations. You know, ultimately, we got some great young entrepreneurs applying. So what I was saying earlier how the pandemic was to see their business skyrocket or to see certainly the virtually their business skyrockets. But anyway, almost in a way that it was too hot to handle. Yeah, keeping up with demand and servicing demand can be quite difficult if you're constantly having to hire new people, board them, get them up to speed, understanding what their job role is and doing that whilst delivering excellent customer service and satisfaction. That's a complex issue to handle. So I think, although obviously, you know, increased demand is fantastic, it does present its own challenges. No one I know you ask all of our founders about their support network and who they look to here, he was saying, Obviously having a co founder is driven as you are is it's really key that that sounds like quite an obvious thing to say, because you'd assume that whoever you go into business with is equally as fired up and passionate as you are. But have you come across any situations where this isn't the case? Do you know what Andrew have come across so many times? And as you say, you think it's a given that people are on the same page in terms of their work, effort, tenacity, drive, motivation, ambition. But quite frankly, it's often mismatched, and people's expectations of what they expect of their co founder is unfounded. Often this actually means that the businesses end up dissolving or one person buys the other person out. So quite often you think it's a match made in heaven. But more times than not, it doesn't end that way. Yeah, it's fine. Margins isn't really, you know, in terms of the emotional and physical energy put into running a business, that person who are people who are alongside you, they've got to be absolutely the same place. Otherwise, I can imagine how it very quickly all unravels a 100%. And, you know, comparing it to marriage is what I would say to founders like you're literally forming a long term bond and commitment and compromise with each other, and probably also worth mentioning the young entrepreneur scheme, which was quite nice little side story, actually. The fact that having benefited from support from others on the way up that now they're looking to put something back. The old saying goes into the entrepreneurial and startup community. So yeah, that was good to hear about. Yeah, I think that kind of links into why you go into business in the first place. And I think, you know, if you're growing successful business, then ultimately that has a net positive impact on the local economy and people that you employ, but also enables you to share the lessons you've learned along the way with the next generation of entrepreneurs. And I think that's quite fitting that a green jacket put the scheme together to benefit young entrepreneurs under the age of 25 personally, having delivered the start up workshop to the seven young people on the programme, I was literally blown away with the aspirations, the talent, the motivation, the business models of some of these young people. And it made me really excited about what the future holds for U K start ups. Thank you. Mhm. Right. Thank you for that Ali will now turn to the final part of your chat with Edgar, and here he talks about his aspirations for the future. He's also got a listener question and one piece of advice for founders everywhere, I'd say two bits of advice. I mean, I think Number one, I think you need to have a product or a service that you a feel passionate about and be is something. It's a great product or service that you feel passionate about. Essentially, I think without that you're going to really struggle to push that out, really. And I think the second thing is actually, once you do start is about focusing. When you set up your own business, there are so many things to do, you incredibly busy, and it's very easy to not necessarily focus on what's important. It's very easy to get distracted and and I think actually you know, the most important thing for you as a business is kind of driving that growth and everything else needs to happen. But without that growth businesses going to go anywhere As an entrepreneur, you need to focus on what is important to your business and really always that is driving growth. Where do you want to be and both of your businesses over the next five years? My daughter being elected five years. It's a tough question, isn't it? I think VT has got huge potential for growth. I mean, we've gone from having five employees this time last year to almost 40 this year, and I guess what's kind of driving that growth is people's approach to work. In working from home culture. I can see that continuing in a certain certain way, not necessarily as it has been over the last 18 months or so in the coming period. But I think that's kind of opened companies eyes really two different approaches to work in and that whole flexible working, I think it is here to stay. So I think with virtually there right, that's something that we we're really kind of embracing. It's great for us as a business because it creates a lot of demand, but also as a business that were also that's how we want to work. So, for instance, you know this whole kind of 9 to 5 some of the half hour kind of shift pattern we see going really the next couple of years for us. If people are working from home, why can't they work more on their own terms? Why can't they work more flexibly? So I think that's something that we as a business are really keen to kind of explore and develop. Further, they did excellent and practically speaking, where can people find out more about Canton tea and virtually there can't on you? Can you can You can see our products The line at Canton tea dot com and virtually there virtually heightened there dot net also maker. And for anybody listening, have you got any special offers for either? Business is sure. So if people like to try Canton tease, you can use the code founded on our website for 10% off. If you'd be interested in any of the virtually their services, I'd be very happy to extend a 20% discount for the first year. We can't offer. You don't actually have the facility to use a promo codes. I suggest you you send me an email that's Edgar at virtually hyphen there dot net and then we can discuss what what services you want, and I can apply the discount, then Awesome. Very kind of you, Eggar. And if you've got a question you'd like to ask our listeners, I do, actually, yes. So, as I mentioned earlier, we're very keen to build upon the success of the young entrepreneur scheme next year. And a question to your listeners really is. Do they have any kind of ideas on channels or ways of actually reaching these young entrepreneurs? Last year, we you know, we used a mixture of kind of traditional press and a social media campaign that we ran in house. It would be great to hear if if any of your listeners have any ideas on how we could promote the scheme, you know, maybe there's some partners potentially that we could we could reach out to and discuss it with or any other idea is really for forgetting the scheme out there just before we go to eggs. One piece of advice. Ali his thoughts that the next five years it's such a great fit, such a canny fit with what virtually there are all about the fact that there be people working more on their own terms. It's very hard to see our working culture coming away from that now that people have seen the light and virtually there, therefore is perfectly placed to support that. I think they've got a proven track record with outsourcing professional services, and I think they're growing their impact across the UK there across eight cities. I know they've got great ambitions to grow. And I think ultimately, if you can outsource aspects of your business that you can't personally add value to and you can afford to do so, then it's a bit of a no brainer, really. And that one piece of a voice only have a product or service that you feel passionate about again. I'm sure that we've covered in previous episodes, and it might seem blindly obvious. But if you don't have that passion, it's going to be quite hard sell, isn't it? Yeah, when you're having those down days, if you If you're not passionate and kind of get re motivated about what you're trying to do, then ultimately that motivation is going to wane over time. That's going to result in basically the business closing its doors. Mhm. Okay, well, for this past the show, this is where we bring in Samantha Miles. Samantha is part of our founding. The ground, the team. And it's right across all our social platforms and looking to see what you the listener is getting into, which was about so first of all, Samantha. Hi there. Hi, Andrew. Thanks for having me. That's right, Samantha. We recently featured on family grounded the business called Kasarani. And I know that there's been some follow up as a result of this, isn't there? Yes. Yes, we had some great feedback. Actually, the question that was put out there was actually how long do you spend washing your hair on a wash day? Because they are creating bathroom products that are eco friendly. We put this question out here, and we were pleased to see that 82% of people actually spent less than 20 minutes washing their hair. Which is great news, of course. Environmentally and of course, water wasted wise. But what was really interesting is the amount of comments we had supporting the plastic free movement for bath products. So a lot of people are already making that switch or showing a real interest in finding out where they can make that switch. So It was fantastic to see the insights and see that people are starting to make that change and really understanding their environmental responsibility with the car products they use at home and how those small actions can really start to make a big positive change. Now let's talk about the question that Egg opposed in this episode because he talked about his involvement with the young entrepreneur scheme. And the biggest question is simply what ideas do people have of how to reach young entrepreneurs and just interested to get both of your thoughts quickly on this? Because it's a dilemma for a lot of businesses and people these days, and how he communicates with a demographic whose communication options and channel seems to be evolving day today. It's a real dilemma. So this should be quite interesting question to ask our listeners. Yes, definitely. I'm looking forward to hearing what ideas people have. I mean, you've got your traditional options. Of course, there are always the key social media platforms that appeal to a younger demographic, and they'll be using to reach their audiences as well and build their businesses. There's some great resources out there, so the kind of people who are interacting in resources that are going to be helpful for young entrepreneurs but also looking at the key education areas for young entrepreneurs. So the kind of apprenticeships and schemes that are supporting them, but also the university societies. This is the kind of support and opportunity that would have been incredibly useful for me back at the business society at university. So I think there are a lot of great pools that people could be tapping into. Two. Give young entrepreneurs that extra support, that extra mentoring and help along their journey to get started. I'm really looking forward to seeing what ideas everybody else has and some out of the box ideas, which I'm sure will be getting Ali for businesses aiming its products or services at a young demographic. Do you think it's increasingly hard these days for businesses to do that simply because of the evolution in communication, technology and social media? I do think it's hard because there's so much noise online, you've got to try and cut through that with a very meaningful message. I think the fact that they're giving away so much support, five grand of support to young entrepreneurs. I think that message should cut through the noise, but it doesn't make it easy. I think they've got to look at obviously what channels these young people are using, whether it's tiktok or everyone's. But like Samantha says, I think they've also got to look at where these young people spending their time, not just online. So wherever there are f e colleges, universities, there might be people who signed onto universal credit that are part of the new enterprise allowance scheme. It could be looking at partnerships things like the Prince's trust who are already engaging with these young people. But it's the old question of yeah, identifying where your target audience are hanging out and trying to reach them. So this is the million Dollar question for this episode. How to reach Young entrepreneurs would love to hear your thoughts on that, and I'm the founder and granted in general, please do get in touch and some other speaking of ways to get older people just remind us again of how people can get in touch with us. Yeah, so we are founded and grounded on Facebook, twitter and instagram. But we are primarily engaging with the community on Instagram and Twitter. So if you have one of those do reach out and get in touch. Samantha is brilliant. Thanks for joining us. Good to hear you as ever. And we're looking forward to seeing what our listeners have got to say on that. Great. And I'm looking forward to the feedback. Great. So thank you once again to Sam there. And thank you once again. Too eager. I don't forget also that offer from eager to very kind office. First of all, on the county website. If you go on, uh, you have 10% of the products if you enter Founded in the discount code section when you're online there and likewise and virtually there Edgar invited people to email him directly. Please do follow up with him. We shared his email details and also the websites just a moment ago. So there we go. Ali, we are done for another entrepreneur. Thank you much. Indeed. Once again to echo and thank you to you. As we've heard throughout this episode, good things do indeed come to those who wait in the world of business. Indeed. Remember, kids, it's a marathon, not a sprint in the world of business. Great, great work. OK, Ali, We'll look. Thank you, Steve, for that. Yeah. Look forward to catching up in person next time. Thanks, Ali. Take care. And to our listeners also thank you for choosing to listen to the founder and granite podcast. We know there are gazillions of podcasts out there across all kinds of delights. So we appreciate you spending half an hour or so of your week with us. And we hope you enjoy this particular episode as Sam was saying earlier, Please do get in touch with us via our various social as we love to hear your views and what you've heard. So you do get in touch. But for now, and in the meantime, please do take care of yourselves. As you say, I found in the grounded look out for each other. It's a jungle out there. And we look forward to your company again in a few weeks. Time for Episode three are founded and grounded. Until then, Take care and Cheerio. Yeah, yeah. Uh huh. Mhm