S3-09: Rich Youmans, Many Paths to One Goal

Rich Youmans, publisher at MJSA and executive director at the MJSA Education Foundation shares about collaboration, connection and the renowned publication. “People come to us (…) to make their jobs…, their lives easier…, and to get that feel that we’re all working together to create something that’s better,” he says. Rich’s latest project is on reviving jewelry-trade apprenticeships and he is working closely with educators, organizational leaders and master jewelers. MJSA has set an ambitious goal of creating the first jewelry apprenticeship certification program adopted by the U.S. Department of Labor and apprenticeship.org. Join Rich, in this interesting For the Love of Jewelers podcast episode, as he sits down live with Courtney Gray, to discuss his knowledge, optimism and flexibility on the future of jewelry education.

Transcript

Courtney Gray:

Welcome to For the Love of Jewelers, a podcast brought to you by Rio Grande Jewelry Supply and hosted by yours truly, Courtney Gray. Now in our third season, we celebrate the unconditional strength driven by our passion to create and the motivating factors that enable us to adapt. We recognize the relevance and resilience of the jewelry industry through inspirational stories that challenge and honor its makers. Our journey, although unchartered, is one we are on together. Let's pause, share and discover the variety of silver linings gained from each personal story of innovation and determination. 

Rich Youmans oversees the communications and publications of Manufacturing Jewelers and Suppliers of America, MJSA, the 119-year-old trade alliance dedicated to professional excellence in jewelry-making and design. He also serves as the executive director of the MJSA Education Foundation, the alliance's 501(c)(3) subsidiary that supports career and training initiatives for students and workers throughout the industry. Let's dive in.

Courtney Gray:

Hi, guys. Welcome back to For the Love of Jewelers. Today we have Rich Youmans with us. So excited to spend some time with him today. Rich is the publisher at MJSA and executive director at MJSA Education Foundation. Super excited to talk education with you today in particular, Rich, and-

Rich Youmans:

Oh, very happy to be here, Courtney.

Courtney Gray:

Welcome. Welcome. I'm glad-

Rich Youmans:

Thank you.

Courtney Gray:

To be face-to-face. And the new term is IRL, in real life.

Rich Youmans:

That's right.

Courtney Gray:

Have you heard that yet? It's catching on.

Rich Youmans:

Yes, fortunately.

Courtney Gray:

How do we get back to...? I know. Thank goodness. We were just talking on the ride here actually about how nice and how different it is to be in person. Been working on Zoom and through whatever we can virtually, but-

Rich Youmans:

Yeah, yeah. No, it's nothing quite like actually face-to-face conversation.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah. You can't feel the energy through the Zoom-

Rich Youmans:

No, no.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah, or the body language or see people's goofy whatever. It's part of getting to know someone.

Rich Youmans:

That's right.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah. So tell us a little bit about, Rich, you've been with MJSA for 26 years now.

Rich Youmans:

Amazingly, yes, yes.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah, that's amazing. Over a quarter of a century, we could say, just.

Rich Youmans:

I'm feeling older as we go on.

Courtney Gray:

I'm sorry. I don't mean to age you, but-

Rich Youmans:

Yeah. I came to MJSA, Manufacturing Jewelers and Suppliers of America, the long term, back in '96. I was hired for the managing editor of the association's magazine, which back then was called AJM and then in about 2006 changed to MJSA Journal. But yeah, most of my background prior to that was in editing and publishing. What they were looking for was someone to come in to really help with the editing and publishing. I had absolutely no experience in the jewelry industry. So it's been 26-year learning on the job, which-

Courtney Gray:

Wow.

Rich Youmans:

Has been really exciting actually. It's one of the things that's always impressed me with the industry, because it really is all about relationships. And when I came in, people took the time to explain, because especially with what was AJM, now MJSA Journal, it's a very technically oriented magazine. We really talk about what goes into the manufacturer of things. Talk about casting, what happens with the metal, what happens in the flask, all those technical details that for a lot of people, I mean, it's just not that easy. And it wasn't easy for me to come in and suddenly to hear about burnout and sprues. And it's like what is this? And what I liked about the industry was the fact that people took the time to explain, where it was just you didn't have to know everything, but at least if you asked, people would explain, and you learn as you go on, so-

Courtney Gray:

That's so neat. I hear mixed things, like people are so open in the industry, people share. And then I also hear the other stories where there's certain techniques or particular things that aren't as open.

Rich Youmans:

Well, I think the industry is always... And actually with The Santa Fe Symposium, I'll say they are one of the first ones, I think, that really tried to blow open the doors, open up the windows, try to get that idea that we don't have to work in silos. Alan Revere, he told me... He has probably a famous story at this point... about how when he first started in Germany, he was just brand new, and they had all their benches lined up. And he was looking at the jeweler next to him, just sort of seeing what he was doing, try to learn a little bit. He came in the next day, and there was a sheet of plywood between his bench and the jeweler's bench. I mean, there were some people that was just-

Courtney Gray:

Oh, wow.

Rich Youmans:

I mean, that was one of those times where it was just the industry did have sort of a reputation at times where it was very closed or I do what I do, and I don't want you to know what I'm doing. And I think that has changed in general. I think, like I said, The Santa Fe Symposium was one of the first ones, what, 34 years-

Courtney Gray:

34 years, yeah.

Rich Youmans:

Ago. When I came into the industry in '96, my own experience, it was changing. Like I said, maybe I just got lucky with the people that I met, but I really found people that were open, that were willing to, at least for the magazine, to really explain what a burnout was and all the technical details. And I think that's gotten better over time. There's been more symposiums, have come up. I think more of an openness, that idea that we can all share and we can all talk about what we're doing without that feel that we're giving away secrets. And that's been nice to see.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah, more about collaboration and how do we kind of move forward together as a family.

Rich Youmans:

Exactly. Yeah.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah, I love that. Since I've been in the industry, that's kind of been how it is. I don't think I've ever experienced someone saying, "Nope." No plywood between the bench.

Rich Youmans:

No, we don't want that.

Courtney Gray:

I hadn't heard that story, Rich. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah. So tell us a little bit about MJSA. This is a nonprofit that's been around for over a century.

Rich Youmans:

Oh, well over a century. It was incorporated in 1903. It was actually fun.

Courtney Gray:

You weren't there. Told you I'd make you laugh. Not yet.

Rich Youmans:

Not quite yet. In 2003, we did The Centennial. So it was sort of fun. I went back. We did the entire history over the course of 12 months going back. And it actually started with a baseball game in the 1870s, where it was, I guess, the jobbers, as they were called, the contractors back then down in New York City. People from New England went down. Providence was so heavy in the fashion industry at that time. And the people from New England looked at what was happening in New York and thought, hey, they have some type of association down there and thought we can do that. And I think it was called the New England Jewelers and Silversmiths Association, NEMJSA, jewelers, yeah-

Courtney Gray:

Too many terms to remember.

Rich Youmans:

Yeah, New England Manufacturing Jewelers and Silversmiths Association, whatever it was. But they started. They networked. They brought people together. They would work with government affairs. If there was tax bills coming up, they would try to influence that, or get at least to get their viewpoints across. And in 1903, it was officially incorporated. And the whole history of the association and what it did through the depression, through trying to build up markets for jewelers, what they did during war time with transitioning, where so many of the manufacturers were doing buttons for military or insignias, and then that transitioned back. And that's when one of the longest executive directors actually, he came in at the end of World War II to help with the transition and lasted through the 80s. And probably in the 50s was where I think the US government had come in, and they were trying to... I think it was in the 40s, but really trying to build up the workforce. And they looked to what had been the New England association and trying to help out, but became more national at that point, where it was not just New England who was going to be helping with the US. And that's around the 50s where MJSA really started becoming more of a national association, where it was people from outside of New England. And it developed from there.

Rich Youmans:

And today we have members from really around the world, people in different parts of the world. I would say that people come to us really for a community, that sense of bonding together. Really, it's always been there from the very start, looking for information, knowledge, because for us, because we have this community and extends from, like I said, we do have international members consolidated, obviously in the US and have members reaching from the Tiffany's of the world, the large corporations, then the people who are just starting out and really just need the help to get going. And we have a wide range. And people come to us by using that community because of who we have, looking for knowledge, whether it's technical knowledge, whether it's trends in the industry. They come to us for sourcing. It's a big component of what we do, whether sourcing tools and equipment, sourcing services, hard-to-find services. And they come to us just to make their jobs, their lives easier and to get that feel that we're all working together to create something that's better.

Courtney Gray:

I love that community.

Rich Youmans:

Community, what it comes down to.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah, ability to network from home too, or anywhere and find, well, I can't find this particular thing. Let's go to MJSA website, mjsa.org, and see if we can find it. Did I do the website right?

Rich Youmans:

You got it perfect. Yes.

Courtney Gray:

Yes. I love it when I remember things, Rich. So Providence was like... I love this baseball story. It's like, wait, what? When I read that, I was like we got to talk about that, because what are we, pitching and talking jewelry at the same time, literally?

Rich Youmans:

Right.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah, interesting, interesting. So this was in Providence, you're saying, originated?

Rich Youmans:

With MJSA?

Courtney Gray:

Yeah.

Rich Youmans:

Yeah, it was all because Providence, that was the fashion jewelry capitol, Rhode Island and Providence specifically. When I first came, we still had our headquarters in Providence. So-

Courtney Gray:

But I was hearing others say, yeah, this is where it originated, where the whole jewelry industry kind of became. Would you say that's true?

Rich Youmans:

Yeah. When you look at, especially the fashion jewelry industry, I mean, Providence was just known as this was the place to go. I mean, I think at one point... I remember hearing stories where the... What's it called? Jobbers, or basically people doing homework, is what it came down to. But they might be stringing beads, or it was just part of a way of life that so many people, actually jewelry was everywhere. And it was probably the big industry. I mean, like I said, I came late-

Courtney Gray:

Sure.

Rich Youmans:

To it, but everything I've heard, it's like, yeah, I mean, it was Rhode Island, Providence, but Rhode Island, really that center of the fashion jewelry.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah. Isn't that interesting?

Rich Youmans:

Yeah.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah. I'm going to have to go visit some museums there, just around and see.

Rich Youmans:

Yeah. There's still a lot of good companies there.

Courtney Gray:

Really?

Rich Youmans:

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah. That'd be an exciting tour. So what do you think is...? Let's see how I'm going to phrase this question for you, Rich. What's the biggest takeaway that you see people getting as a member at MJSA? And you mentioned the sourcing. I know there's just so many resources that you guys have put together. Is there a main one that people tend to find a lot of use out of?

Rich Youmans:

I think it's like anything. It's like when you have a Swiss knife, it's like what's the main use of this? It's like it depends on what your need is at the moment. And I think that with MJSA, people do come to us, one, because there is that sense of, you're part of something bigger than yourself. There is community. There's that sense that you're trying to make a difference, and you're with others who are trying to make a difference too. I think when it comes to individual needs, like I said, a lot of people do come for sourcing. They come for promotion trying to get their work out there, their names out there. And obviously the two are intertwined. One member's product you're trying to sell is another member's need, and we try to make all those connections. They come for consulting, where we have from our president David Cochran, also to others that have come one as sort of a little consulting team where people might need help with certain things. It could be someone long-term like, "I'm stuck in business," or "I'm transitioning. I need some guidance here." Or it could be someone coming up and just fears, "What's my next step here?"

Rich Youmans:

And that's something where they can help. David in particular is very good at that. He's been around the industry for a long while. And they come for knowledge and information, like finding out I need this, just the knowledge itself, but even with the sourcing, whether it's hard-to-find information of certain technicalities. Someone might say, "Is there black gold?" Or "What about this? What can I do with this [inaudible 00:15:30]?" Or someone else might say... We had one member that they were doing... I think they had to do an appraisal, and they had to take part in heirloom and put it together, but they needed someone with such exquisite skill. I mean, it, wasn't your typical job. And they came to us for help, and we were able to connect them with someone that had particular expert expertise in that area.

Rich Youmans:

And that's the type of thing that, I mean, people say, where would you go for that? Because you can't just go online and say look at that. It's like you need people, and MJSA is people. When you need someone, you're not just out there looking around searching and figuring it out. It's like how can you connect me with who I really need? And that's MJSA. So connections, maybe. If you said one word, connections.

Courtney Gray:

Connections.

Rich Youmans:

It could be connections to knowledge, to sourcing, to people.

Courtney Gray:

Well, and also to career, the career connections.

Rich Youmans:

Careers. Career's a big part of it. And that's a big thrust that we're trying to do right now through the education foundation. Because it's been obviously everywhere. It's so difficult with trying to find help and with what they're calling the great resignation, the big quit. I mean, for the jewelry industry, that's been going on for a while now, where you've had so many people, veterans, they've been going out of the industry. You don't have that same pool. They're going out faster than they've been coming in. And not only is that just tough because you need help, but you're also losing... Excuse me... incredible knowledge. And that's just a bad combination period.

Courtney Gray:

Scary.

Rich Youmans:

Yeah, yeah. And what we want to try to do is to find a way to show people coming into the industry who might not know what they want to do, or they know they don't want to do certain things. They're looking to figure out trade school might be good for me. I want to work with my hands. I have an art background. I mean, actually in jewelry, it incorporates so much. It's like all the STEM. You can be science and metallurgy. You can be art. You can be handcraft. I mean, it's just across the board it's a great career. Not a lot of people know about it, just because I think it's fallen by the wayside. Most young people, they're looking at where to go. And they're thinking, one, they've been pushed towards four-year colleges or potentially master's degree. And a lot of them obviously [inaudible 00:18:17] issue right now. They're coming out in debt. And the idea that this is an alternative, and this is something that more people need to be aware of, not just if you want to work with your hands. This is an option, manufacturing in general, but jewelry in particular, that this could be a great career for you.

Rich Youmans:

And one of the things that we've been told is that for a lot of young people, one of the big things is like what's my career path? I want to see a future. It's not just here's a job where I can work with my hands, but it's like where am I going to go with it? So one of the things that we're trying to do right now is bring back the idea of the apprenticeship. I mean, the apprenticeships used to be that was the lifeblood. Back when they used to have guilds and you could come in and you could work with mentors where that knowledge wasn't going to be lost. And some of the people who we've been working with right now, one of them is Nanz Aalund, who she's a phenomenal bench jeweler, teacher, incredible passion and enthusiasm for the industry. So we worked with Nanz back in 2017, I believe. She came to us because one of the things that she wanted to do, she had that experience of when she was starting out just before, I guess, the guilds unions, they went away, but she had the benefit of being able to be a part of that and a part of that experience.

Rich Youmans:

And that idea of apprenticeship, she wanted to bring that back. So she came to us with an idea to do a book saying here's what you could do, because at that point... Was it 2016? 2017?... even before that, jewelers were saying then where's the next generation coming from? Where are the people who are going to come in? I'm having trouble finding people. And this is across the board. Manufacturers, or you had retailers with bench operations in the shop. They just couldn't find people. And Nanz came to us and said she had this idea for a book that would really lay out, that would help people, because so many people in shops... And she set out very specifically to say for a long time, jewelry was generations. It was all in the family. And now that's not quite the case anymore. It used to be you'd have like second and third generation, very common. And the kids were like, "I think I want to do something else now."

Rich Youmans:

So say you owned a shop, and your idea of teaching was like you taught your son or daughter, and then they would teach their children, and they can teach family. But now it's like someone else coming in. It's like I'm not a teacher. And they didn't like it, not so much they didn't like it, but they didn't really know how to teach. And what she wanted to do was to get them help so that here would be a book that you could really set up an apprenticeship, because that's really to have that model to say here's an option for you to draw people in, but then to train them well. So she did that where she had chapters on how to find people, how to set up your shop, foreign apprenticeship, but then very specifics as far as identifying tools, or here's all the tools that they should know about. Here are projects that are going to develop certain hand skills. Here's how to group projects here. Here's how to group skills to train them. And people who have read it... It actually won an award for association publications, but people who have read it said it's really been helpful to them, which is the best award actually.

Courtney Gray:

Right. That's the goal.

Rich Youmans:

And so she... Well, fast forward a little bit, because about a year ago when we were-

Courtney Gray:

Wait, what's the book called? Because-

Rich Youmans:

Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah.

Courtney Gray:

It is such a great book, you guys. When it first came out, Nanz gave me a copy. She sent me a copy.

Rich Youmans:

It's called A Jeweler's Guide to Apprenticeships.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah. And even if you're not thinking about an apprentice, there's just so much just great content, very clear, easy to understand, yeah, and really important. You're right. This is an important topic that-

Rich Youmans:

It was the type of book, like she said, and what you're saying, it was written really for businesses, but also it could be for students, it could be for schools. She's a very good teacher, and that showed through the book.

Courtney Gray:

She's also a lot of fun.

Rich Youmans:

She is. She is.

Courtney Gray:

She's a cool lady.

Rich Youmans:

Yeah. So fast forward a little bit. So last year, right now the hurt that the industry was feeling as far as trying to find people... I mean, it was nationwide, but that was the number one topic and-

Courtney Gray:

Around 2021? Yeah.

Rich Youmans:

Yes.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah. I know we're still like what year are we in?

Rich Youmans:

I know. I know. It's all a blur.

Courtney Gray:

It's going to take us a minute. Yeah.

Rich Youmans:

But Andrea Hill, I think you know, she and I have worked together on past grants for the JCK Industry Fund. And when this came up, I talked with her and said, "This could be a great topic, really, because what's needed right now is that whole idea of bringing people in, apprenticeships and finding a way to help jewelers attract people, come in and then train them well." And we developed a proposal, and fortunately the JCK board accepted it. And thanks to them for doing that, because that enabled us to get going on what we're calling the MJSA Mentor & Apprenticeship Program. And the first person that Andrea and I contacted was Nanz, because what we wanted to do, the first step in the program is to create what we're calling a framework. And there's a CBOF, competency-based occupational framework, because the jewelry industry loves acronyms.

Courtney Gray:

We sure do.

Rich Youmans:

But it's not an acronym from the jewelry industry. It was a model that was pioneered by the Urban Institute with the US Department of Labor and truly trying to create [inaudible 00:25:05] occupational description and outlook. And then it really breaks down really core competencies. The first one we're doing is for bench jewelry, because that's one of the biggest needs out there right now. So Nanz is basically taking a lot of the great information that was in her book, and it's going even deeper, where she's looking at the various things that you would need as a bench jeweler, whether it's going to be filing-

Courtney Gray:

[inaudible 00:25:31]. What are the skills, the core skills?

Rich Youmans:

The things that any, yeah, shop owner would expect and really breaking it down. Here's what you need. Here are the core components of that skill. And based on eventually in a timeframe, because at a certain point, you need to be able to say, this is a business. You can't take forever to set something, but it builds up from there. And so she's creating this. We're looking to have the first framework ready for vetting, because we're assembling a task force within the industry. Nanz is going to create this. It's going to be a one-year program. And it's going to be the basis for really what we're looking to create is the first nationally recognized, registered apprenticeship program. So this is going to be one aspect, the in-shop training, where she is going to create, it's a 50-week program. When she's done, which she's expecting to be done like late July, early August, we're pulling together people from the industry, both educators as well as businesses, and we're going to send them out this framework and say, "What do you think? Is this going to meet the needs?" Just trying to get as much input and engagement as possible to make sure that we're meeting the needs.

Rich Youmans:

As Nanz found out, even during the process of writing it, she had contacted someone, a business owner, and he says, "This is great. If I were in a school, I could do all this, but also there's like 18 other things I have to do." And she said, "Well, maybe we need to space this out a little bit so there's more time where it's not all so concentrated." So it's little things like that just to make sure that when it goes into a shop, that it actually can be used and not interfere with the shop's operation and can be modified as needed, but really setting the standards, because right now, one thing with the industry is that there's a lack of agreed upon standards. We were at The Santa Fe Symposium. Someone said the other day even when it comes down to the levels of solder, easy, medium and hard, no one's quite in agreement on what that should be. Someone's medium might be someone else's hard and vice versa. And so trying to create a set of standards.

Rich Youmans:

Everyone works in different ways, so it's not this you do it this way. Nanz is going to create a framework where here's a way to do it. Here's a way that an apprentice can come in and learn through that. If they find a better way for them to do it, that's fine. I mean, it's easily adjustable in that sense, but what won't change are the standards. You need to get to this core model. You do it if it works better for you a certain way, but this is what you need to do.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah. And if they want to skip around or whatever, there's an outline.

Rich Youmans:

It's flexibility, yeah, to make sure-

Courtney Gray:

There's an index to work from, so to speak. So yeah, a guide. Cool.

Rich Youmans:

Yeah, so we're looking to have that. That would be-

Courtney Gray:

Wow. That's needed, Rich. Yeah, coming from an educator background, it's very complicated. There's just so many ways to do it from A to Z and to have something that, oh yeah, we missed this. Almost like a training, like you're saying. I love it. Okay, cool. Tell us more. Yeah.

Rich Youmans:

Yeah. So we're going into a little vetting process and then ultimately hoping by the end of the year. And so we'll start rolling it out, presenting it to businesses, making it available, where it's like this is something for you, and this was funded by the industry. This is for the industry. And we're also going to have to register it with the Department of Labor. So the second part, which really, we're starting off right now, is going to be creating 144 hours of another acronym, RTI, related training information. And that's their acronym, again, but basically, it's really supplementing, because you can have the in-shop, like what Nanz is doing. It's like here's how to do it, here's how you can teach it, but it's the learning. And there are certain parameters for an official apprenticeship program, registered apprenticeship program. And that's one of them you have to have. In addition to basically what it comes down to 50, like a year's worth of training in shop, there has to be this 144 hours of related instruction.

Rich Youmans:

And what we're going to do is we've been talking to some schools to try to create something, one, create a library online. And there's so much information that we have at MJSA, even what we've done through our magazine, MJSA Journal, basics of metallurgy, basics of certain practices, basics of what to expect when working with certain gemstones, I mean, core knowledge, and have that, have videos that we can vet. Going to ask around the industry to say if you want an example of this being done, here's a good way of doing it. It's not the only way, but here's a good way for your reference.

Rich Youmans:

So to create a library and then hopefully to work with schools where, as this... Really, it's a regimen, but... standards are going to come out, schools who have programs can look at it and figure, yeah, we can adapt our education to make sure that when people are going in, if they're going to do an apprenticeship... Because it's crucial. You're never going to learn everything in school. You need that. And this is sort of designed to be that steppingstone to a career so that we can make sure that, as we're developing things, that we can meet that. And I think a lot of schools will do it anyway, but it'll be out there at least. And for schools that are just starting at breakfast with someone today where it's a high school program that they just started.

Courtney Gray:

Right. Exciting.

Rich Youmans:

It is.

Courtney Gray:

There's a lot of this happening.

Rich Youmans:

It's out there, yeah.

Courtney Gray:

Lot of high schools. Yeah.

Rich Youmans:

Yeah, and that's the exciting thing. So the more that we can do to provide them, okay here's... Like we talked about that path... here's that path where you can take this. If you can work towards this, and this will lead to this, and this will lead to this, and ultimately, it's a pathway to a career.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's exciting. Mark Nelson could attest to the Rio for Schools program, for example. I was working with them a little to get that back in a new iteration, move it through to a new iteration last year, and we noticed every week there was probably 10 high schools signing up-

Rich Youmans:

Oh, that's great.

Courtney Gray:

For the program to get the discounted rate on tools of the wholesale access. So that was thrilling for us, because we're hearing about colleges closing the program, so people having to battle to keep these alive. And then now we're seeing, okay, good, get them while they're in high school. There's some amazing programs out there already, but this will be good. So now, will they get to certify students? Or will they get some sort of certification? Is that what we're talking about, if they complete a certain amount of foundation skills?

Rich Youmans:

With this framework, at the end of the final 50 weeks, assuming that you have mastered these skills, there'd be like a little certification. It's like a beginner jeweler, but it's like I'm certified now. I've done this work. So-

Courtney Gray:

Yeah, that's exciting. Yeah, I think that's something that will be very easy to adopt with a lot of schools. And then for you guys out there looking for jewelers, being able to have someone come in and say, yes, of course, you're going to give them a bench test and have to see their skills or see previous work, but having this certificate, okay, we know that they've been through this many hours of training with... Yeah, it's exciting.

Rich Youmans:

It's a help. It is. And-

Courtney Gray:

Well, it'll clarify things a little bit, which it is a little all over the place. And you think about becoming a plumber or an electrician. There's training for that, or even driving a truck.

Rich Youmans:

Very specific training.

Courtney Gray:

Very specific.

Rich Youmans:

And something which if you're going to hire an electrician and you see someone's license, yeah, it makes a difference. So I think the start will be, like we were saying, creating standards. Like people know when they see this, this is what it meant, and that will help a great deal. So that's really a big core of the program, developing this first part. If we could do this with the apprenticeship, the other aspects are going to be once it's done, we also want to create something so that for the people who are going to be teaching, the businesses, especially have their own type of training, whether they do webinars. We have to formulate it but have something so that not just here's tools and good luck. It's like here's tools, here's how to use it, and here's how to create an apprenticeship. Here's how to create an environment so the apprentices stay, because that's one of the big, various objections to why someone doesn't want to do an apprenticeship. Someone could fear that an apprentice may come in and break something. And it's like, well, it could happen, so make sure they don't work with something that's valuable to break.

Rich Youmans:

But another one is going to be I'm going to teach them all this, and then they're going to go away. And it's like why am I going to invest all this time? And Charles Lewton-Brain had some statistics, where it was, I think it was like 92% of apprentices, they stay. And I think a lot of that comes down to the fact that, one, when someone invests in you in that way, and it's a good experience, it's like this is... I know for my own part, when I've been with people that I feel like they had my best interests out there and they're trying to train me, you're not so willing to say, okay, let me go out to the highest bidder now or become a free agent. There's a loyalty that develops. And trying to have a program where, as businesses come in, it's not, oh, we're changing a business, but just here's how to create an environment where an apprentice wants to stay. So that's going to be another part of it, that in between. So it's not just what the apprentice does.

Courtney Gray:

Nice.

Rich Youmans:

It's also making sure that the people, the businesses buying into it, that they can use it to maximum effects or for their own benefits.

Courtney Gray:

So almost like management/building the culture of your business and-

Rich Youmans:

Yeah, something along those lines, yeah.

Courtney Gray:

That's really important. It really is. Take care of your people, they take care of you. And it does become a family in some situations. Yeah, and of course, I mean, that's a fear that I'm sure it comes to life. Sometimes people do have steppingstones. They're going to go on and do their own thing or do something different. But-

Rich Youmans:

Part of life.

Courtney Gray:

I wonder if you could have an agreement with them, like, okay, if we do this two-year apprenticeship, maybe you promise for another two of-

Rich Youmans:

I think in different models, maybe in Europe, that there might have been something like that. I'm not sure.

Courtney Gray:

It's a little intense, but I like a guarantee. But it is, yeah, a risk with hopefully a great reward. Yeah. Well, that's exciting. So that's the main focus right now, it sounds like for MJSA.

Rich Youmans:

It's the main focus right now. Yeah, I mean, eventually what we want to do is we also want to create really a database of apprenticeships, because as this builds, because we're going to get the program registered, it'll go onto apprenticeship.gov. So that will help. And also, we created a jobs board on our site, where members can post for free looking for whatever types of employees they might need. And we're also going to be introducing a positions wanted board for anyone who's looking for work to try to get those two together and ultimately create a database of available apprenticeships and just kind of use MJSA as that middle person, where, again, connections, trying to fill people's needs. You need a job. You need a qualified person. It's a match. So we can make it work from there.

Courtney Gray:

Jeanette Caines and I were just talking about that, matchmaking. She's like Tinder.

Rich Youmans:

There you go.

Courtney Gray:

I think that would be amazing. I've talked to recruiters in the industry and different folks, and it is kind of a struggle right now to find good people who want to learn the skills and stick with it long enough to make it a true career and trade. And I like the idea of that glass ceiling thing, like how can you advance? Because I think that's one of the biggest things that the younger generations coming beneath us are really looking for. We want to advance. We want to be challenged. There's no tops this. I would like to keep learning and growing. Yeah.

Rich Youmans:

Yeah, eventually if there could be something where Nanz has talked about the old model, well, the model that really so many apprenticeships apply in industries. You have the apprentice, you have the journeymen, and then you have the master. So actually to bring that back into the jewelry industry, I mean, this is obviously the first step, but to have something where that's the path that we're talking about, where if I were someone coming into the industry at the start of my career, it's like this is not just I can be apprentice. This is where I can go, and this is where it could lead me. So I could see something beyond just immediate. And that's important.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah. Well, no, I mean, we always say too when I'm chatting with folks in the industry that there are so many facets literally and figuratively to this particular trade. And so there's so much to learn. And there's so much new. When we go to symposiums, we hear, oh my gosh, what is this powder manufacturing? There's all kinds of new stuff that I haven't even heard about yet. So it's pretty fun. I think it keeps it fun and engaging. And again, I think we all need to be challenged, or we get kind of stagnant, so-

Rich Youmans:

Oh, it's crucial. It's crucial. You hope never to stop learning.

Courtney Gray:

Right. Yes. Yeah, that is the hope. So the highest possible outcome of these efforts, in your eyes, what does that look like? Let's dream big together.

Rich Youmans:

I think over time, if you had something where, one, the creation of standards that people could agree upon or say this is what it takes, two, to see people that it could make it easier, whether it's the students learning, where people could see a good path saying here's the standards, here's where this can lead, here's ultimately. And then at a certain point, like you say, there are many facets to the industry where a person's career ultimately leads. I know when I was 20, I didn't know. But you sort of figure out this is where it could lead in this. And then I had my choices. If we could do something like that, if we had really the return of that apprenticeship model where I think it would stop what we call the brain drain, where we could really keep all that knowledge that has been built up over time, keep it flowing down so that it can go into new people, and then they can pass it down and keep the cycle going.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah, instead of having to start over in a century. Yeah, all the work's been done. Let's share it. Yeah.

Rich Youmans:

Exactly.

Courtney Gray:

I love it. Cut out the guest work, so to speak too, and give people a clear path so they're not shooting in the dark. I love this idea. And I'm curious, Rich. I know there's the bench jeweler certificate out there, but it's kind of outdated. Should we talk about that a little bit?

Rich Youmans:

You're talking about the JA Certificate?

Courtney Gray:

The JA Certificate, yeah. I don't know if it's being used as much. Or maybe we shouldn't even go there. No? Okay, we'll move on. It's okay. Or whatever you want to say about maybe how it could... Would it compare?

Rich Youmans:

I'll say right now, I think it's sort of been in a lull, because it's not our association that does it. It's Jewelers of America. And I think that there's a lot of good information there and trying to find ways. I think what we have, what they have, it's all going towards-

Courtney Gray:

All together.

Rich Youmans:

The same goal. And I think that ultimately, it's the information that's out there. And how do you get it out to students, to prospective jewelers and show that path? So it shows the difficulty of trying to do it. And I think everything has its time, because we were talking about earlier there are different phases for things.

Courtney Gray:

Different chapters, yeah.

Rich Youmans:

Yeah. And I think in this case, so many people that I've talked to about this project, I think they say, one, it's needed. They get excited by it. And I think that people are realizing it really is time to try to do something. And this isn't just like an MJSA project. I mean, we have our goal here. It's an MJSA program, but the initiative is really industry wide and to be able to work with as many organizations as possible, as many schools as possible, as many people in the industry as possible to make sure that it just gets out there, because it is about the industry and where's it going to go in the future?

Courtney Gray:

You mentioned a task force. I like that. Yeah, so a task force and the efforts of making sure, like what you're saying now, getting it out there. And I wonder what the challenges might be with this. Again, coming from that education background, it's like how do we get all our teachers to kind of agree, keep it foundation and simplified enough to where everybody can say, yes, these are the steps? I think there's some real obvious ones, of course, but there's also once you get deeper into it, I think that's where the challenge might come, in my eyes anyway, is the stone setting. And I've watched so many teachers come in over the years and do stone setting techniques so differently.

Rich Youmans:

Oh yeah. Well, I think when you look at it's like there are many paths, it's the goal. And so as I was saying before, where it's that flexibility, where you don't necessarily say, okay, this is the one way of doing it. And you do it A, B, C, D, E and never, ever go to F or never, ever go to C, A. It's like, if you find a different way of doing it that works better for you, fine. But here's one path. You may find a detour that for whatever reason, you said this is how I have to do it. It works best for me, but you're still getting to the same goal. So the path may change slightly. You have the initial guidance, but the ultimate goal of this is what's going to mean, because ultimately that's what it comes down to.

Rich Youmans:

My wife would tell the story where she once bought a pair of earrings from a jeweler, and she brought them home. And she was in the bathroom. She took them off to wash her hands, and the stone fell out, went right down the drain. And that was the last she ever saw of it.

Courtney Gray:

No.

Rich Youmans:

It was just so poorly set.

Courtney Gray:

I know. Oh man.

Rich Youmans:

And beautifully designed, but the craftsmanship wasn't quite there. So at the end, my wife bought by the earrings. I don't think she thought how did that jeweler get from here to here? It was just like whatever the end result was, it wasn't there. And I think that's really where we focus on. It's like how are you going to make sure that it's solid craftsmanship?

Courtney Gray:

Quality control is part of it. Not to sound too strict, but yeah, make sure your stone doesn't fall out on the first wear, et cetera, or the solder seams are done correctly. Like you said, the easy to hard, you don't always want to do the easy. I don't want to do the medium because with jewelry, it is such a functional art form, there's certain things that just really it needs to have to have longevity and integrity throughout, especially wedding jewelry and heirloom jewelry you're going to pass down. Yeah, it's got to be solid.

Rich Youmans:

Well, these things make jewelry the jewelries of the heart. I mean, it's like a jeweler once told me, it's like you think about it, we're lucky. We basically get to encounter people at all the best times of their lives. They're getting married. It's anniversary. It's whatever it might be. I mean, by the nature of the job, you're working with happy people that are usually buying something to celebrate, even if it's just because they like it and they want to wear it themselves, nothing to celebrate except me, it's still a matter of celebration, but yeah, it is something that as that heirloom, I mean, how many people they look like, this was my grandmother's, or it could be my grandfather's or whatever it was? It's a piece of family history that it lasts, and it is important. And you do want it to have something that it can continue to last because it becomes now part of the family.

Courtney Gray:

I love that. And it is such a sentimental. I haven't thought of that recently, how we do get to sit in the most important times in people's lives and kind of share in those moments and hold space and then create something that's so important to them and means so much with personal touches, et cetera. And then we get to use our skills to do it. It's a great gig.

Rich Youmans:

It is. It is.

Courtney Gray:

It's a really great gig. That brings up for me thinking about recycling materials too. I do a lot of... Used to do more, but still do a lot of remakes for grandmother's ring, like you mentioned, who's, "Well, I'm never wearing it, and it's sitting in a drawer. But really, it's sentimental. How can I use this material to create something that I will feel good passing down?" So I love that. And it's very important to some clients to have that material actually transition into the new piece.

Rich Youmans:

Oh yeah. Yeah, it's like the DNA where you just want to keep it going. It's like I want my style, but I want to have the original part of it.

Courtney Gray:

I assume that'll be a part of Nanz puts in her outline, is going to be how to do that, how to melt down material, alloy. That's next steps though, right? That's intermediate at least. I'm way ahead of the... My brain's going now, Rich.

Rich Youmans:

I'm going to get you on the task force.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah. Give me some coffee, I'm good to go.

Rich Youmans:

There you go.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah. No, it's exciting to think about, because there's so many little things to think about there. And I think Nanz is really going to be a great fit for that.

Rich Youmans:

Oh, she's amazing. Yeah, she knows so much, and she's so enthusiastic about everything. So-

Courtney Gray:

Now she's married to Charles Lewton-Brain. They're so cute, and they're such a power couple.

Rich Youmans:

Oh, they're wonderful.

Courtney Gray:

I was at the reception for them. I was lucky enough to make it by. And I just said out loud... I couldn't help myself... I said, "Now that these two brains are together, what's going to happen to the universe and the jewelry industry?" And that was really fun and exciting to see them work and then come together in that way as well.

Rich Youmans:

I know. I know.

Courtney Gray:

What else do you want to share with us today, Rich, while we have time to talk to our community? Any other great things about what MJSA is doing or your outlook on jewelry and jewelry-making, anything that you want to share?

Rich Youmans:

I mean, obviously being of MJSA, MJSA is doing good things out there. Doing great things. I guess I would encourage people, as far as MJSA goes, just check us out. Again, I'm prejudiced, but I think we have a lot of really, really good people who care. Really, they go above and beyond to help others. And like I said, when it comes down to connections, it's what we're about, what we're trying to do. MJSA, some people think of us maybe like the magazine, the journal. It's like the more outward representation. Some people think of us for the expo that we have every year, but it's so many things. Always comes down to people. And all I can say is just if you've ever wondered what MJSA is about, check us out. And you would see my name among the people on the staff. And since you're hearing my voice, you'd feel like, oh, let me call him. That's fine with me.

Courtney Gray:

Oh, you can reach out straight to Rich Youmans?

Rich Youmans:

You could reach out to anyone-

Courtney Gray:

Be careful what you ask for. Yeah. That's great. Yeah.

Rich Youmans:

But anyone. I mean, everyone in MJSA is just great. And just as far, I mean, having been in the industry now for, like we were saying before, realizing that it's been 26 years, which is still sort of like you wonder where did that time go? And I want to consider myself... I mean, people have been in the industry obviously their whole lives. So I'm still sort of a newbie in that sense, but still quarter of a century is still something to see perspectives. And you see the changes. I mean, there's been such a number of changes in the industry over time. But I think what I'm seeing right now is that, I mean, I'm actually very optimistic about where things are going within the industry. It's had its ups and downs. I mean, obviously this past year has been an incredible up for the industry in general as far as sales go, but it's also been challenging as far as everything with COVID and how do you adjust? I mean, it's little bit of everything, but I think that looking forward to where we're going, I think that the openness to trying new ideas and to seeing where things could happen, I'm an optimist.

Courtney Gray:

That's good.

Rich Youmans:

And, well, things change all the time, but I think there's still a lot of good things ahead for the industry. So-

Courtney Gray:

And there's still so much to do. And what you're working on in particular, what you guys are collaborating on, I think is a great next step. It's a good time for it. The industry does need some sort of standard to fall back on, at least. And I can't wait to hear some success stories from this and how it rolls out and-

Rich Youmans:

Me too.

Courtney Gray:

Well, yeah, I bet. Yeah, and also to help however I can. And all you guys out there listening who are running a shop, looking for employees, or if you have a teaching program, you're running a school, this is important. I would say let's all kind of get on the train here together and make sure it's something that you would be comfortable using and utilizing in the future. So is there going to be a way that people can pitch in ideas? Or I know if you get too many cooks in the kitchen too, it's... My Southern side wants to say too many butts in the kitchen.

Rich Youmans:

Well, I think so far, I mean, people have been enthusiastic about it. I mean, personally, I'm welcoming as many people who want to get excited about it and get engaged. So again, if you go to our website, mjsa.org. You'll see my contact information there. Just reach out to me-

Courtney Gray:

Awesome.

Rich Youmans:

And say I want to help. How can I do it? And take it from there.

Courtney Gray:

And you guys, when you go... And not to over pitch MJSA. That's not what this podcast is about, but it is such an important organization, and there's so many resources. When I was digging in and even sitting here talking to Rich and hearing about it, there's buyer's guide, a guide to subcontractors, scholarship programs, Mentor & Apprenticeship program coming up soon. And currently you have quite a few mentors listed there as well, so if you guys are looking for someone to just guide you a little bit. Is this a paid service? Or is it a donated time, the mentorships? I didn't didn't look that deep.

Rich Youmans:

We've had people in the past with the mentors, they donate, people who want to give back. Yeah. And it's really what it comes down to. So many people said, "Yeah, the industry's been good to me. I want to find a way to give back and to help others." It's like, okay, again-

Courtney Gray:

That's awesome.

Rich Youmans:

It's like matchmaker connections.

Courtney Gray:

Totally. It's kind of like a small business program for jewelers. You can reach out to people who are maybe retired or not even, just want to give back a little bit. There's so much content there, guys. There's a whole library. There's articles, really, really great articles. And again, look at those membership tiers. Let's support these endeavors to create some sort of universally used standard that would be applicable to really growing and continuing to grow this industry that we care so much about. Rich, anything... I could just vent. I'm so excited.

Rich Youmans:

I don't want to stop you. Please.

Courtney Gray:

oh yeah, you could've just kept going. But this is your day, man.

Rich Youmans:

No, but I appreciate it. I appreciate the time.

Courtney Gray:

Yeah, this has been great. I met you before, but we're always busy, busy, and so this has been so nice to sit down and hear what you're for and sit next to such an optimistic person with such passion.

Rich Youmans:

It's been a pleasure.

Courtney Gray:

Thank you, Rich.

Rich Youmans:

Thank you, Courtney. Appreciate it.

Courtney Gray:

All right. You guys don't forget mjsa.org, and we will see you next time. Until then, onward and upward.

Courtney Gray:

Thanks for tuning in, you guys. I hope you have enjoyed this episode of For the Love of Jewelers. Stay tuned for the next episode by subscribing through Spotify, iTunes or by searching podcast at riogrande.com. I encourage you to rate us. Write a review and share with friends and colleagues. I hope you're all finding ways to stay inspired. I'm your host, Courtney Gray. Until we get to connect again, onward and upward.