Writer, journalist and curator Vikki Tobak is the author of Contact High and Ice Cold: A Hip-Hop Jewelry History. In collaboration with pioneering jewelers, rappers and other industry artists, her work—of provocative essays and poignant photography—documents the creative subculture within hip-hop. “Early jewelers had to understand something about hip-hop, which is that hip-hop loves customization, and they love remixing and . . . having something different from everybody else. That applies to the music . . . the fashion . . . and the jewelry,” Vikki says. Listen to a star-studded For the Love of Jewelers podcast episode filled with stories of iconic designs worn by hip-hop’s greats. From Biggie’s Jesus piece to Rocafella chains, this episode is one for the books!
Writer, journalist and curator Vikki Tobak is the author of Contact High and Ice Cold: A Hip-Hop Jewelry History. In collaboration with pioneering jewelers, rappers and other industry artists, her work—of provocative essays and poignant photography—documents the creative subculture within hip-hop. “Early jewelers had to understand something about hip-hop, which is that hip-hop loves customization, and they love remixing and . . . having something different from everybody else. That applies to the music . . . the fashion . . . and the jewelry,” Vikki says. Listen to a star-studded For the Love of Jewelers podcast episode filled with stories of iconic designs worn by hip-hop’s greats. From Biggie’s Jesus piece to Rocafella chains, this episode is one for the books!
Courtney Gray:
Welcome to For the Love of Jewelers, a podcast brought to you by Rio Grande Jewelry Supply and hosted by yours truly, Courtney Gray. As we dive into season four and 2023, we recognize the relevance and resilience of the jewelry industry through stories of inspiration. We celebrate the pivots we’ve taken and the passion that drives our unconditional strength. Our journey, although uncharted, is one we are on together. Join me as we discover the variety of silver linings in each story of innovation and determination.
Courtney Gray:
Vikki Tobak is an author, journalist and curator. She is the author of critically lauded books including Contact High: A Visual History of Hip-Hop—published by Clarkson Potter/Random House in 2018 and most recently Ice Cold: A Hip-Hop Jewelry History published by Taschen in 2022. Her work has appeared in many publications, including Complex, Rolling Stone, Paper, Vibe, and i-D. Vikki has lectured widely about music photography and contemporary culture.
Courtney Gray:
Hey, guys. Welcome back to For The Love of Jewelers. We're here today with Vikki Tobak, author of Contact High, and a new publication called Ice Cold, A Hip-Hop Jewelry History. We're super excited to have you here, Vikki, with the community, the jewelry community out there. Let's talk hip-hop jewelry, and let's start with you and your origin story.
Vikki Tobak:
Thank you. Well, I'm so excited to be here, and thank you for having me. I guess, you want me to just start out and talk a little bit about where I...
Courtney Gray:
Yeah.
Vikki Tobak:
... where I started and where I am? I mean [inaudible 00:00:40]
Courtney Gray:
What led you to where you are now? [inaudible 00:00:43]
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah.
Vikki Tobak:
I mean, I guess, the basic timeline is I was born an immigrant kid, not born an immigrant kid, but I was an immigrant kid. My family immigrated from Kazakhstan to Detroit when I was five years old, and landing in Detroit, which was a music city, a city that was rooted in Black culture, and a city that was really rooted in bringing together music, Black culture, and politics, and the history of this country, it was just kind of in the water for me. And I grew up loving, before I loved hip-hop, loving funk, and soul, and Motown, and house music.
So when I started hearing hip-hop in high school, I really just knew that I wanted to move to New York where this music was happening, and just really loved what was happening in New York at the time. As soon as I graduated high school, hightailed it to New York to make a life. There I started working as a culture reporter for a magazine called Paper Magazine. I was their DJ and nightlife culture editor. I also worked at a really important early nightclub called Nell's. And from there, I got a job at a small independent label called Payday Records Empire Management, which at the time was one of the most important hip-hop early labels coming out with groups like Gang Starr.
We had Jay-Z for a singles deal. We had Mos Def when he was in a group called UTD and Show and A.G. And lots of names that people who know deeper hip hop levels will know as kind of iconic groups. So while all that was happening, it sounds like there was a lot all at once, and there was. It was all kind of happening. It was still sort of a more innocent time, I think, for hip hop. It wasn't quite the early, early days, but it was still early enough where the culture was still really rooted in what was happening in New York, what was happening in club culture, what was happening live, and everything just seemed to be coming to life and including early hip hop magazines. And I started writing for those. And that sort of, between that and Paper I was in the music business, but also becoming a journalist as well.
Courtney Gray:
You make it sound so easy. You just stumbled into this role of writer. Did you always have a desire to become a writer? Did you know that that's what you would do?
Vikki Tobak:
I really loved photography. I'm very rooted in photojournalism. So before I loved writing, I loved kind of storytelling through photography, and when I first started at Paper, I was thinking that I would be a photographer for them and then started getting the opportunity to write. So I really did stumble into the writing aspect of it, but the storytelling aspect of it, I loved from the start. And I guess that's probably why I also loved hip hop because there's such great storytelling in the music too.
Courtney Gray:
It's all about the story. I fell down a rabbit hole getting ready to meet with you, Vikki, and it's been so fun. Were your parents into books? Did you have a history of love for this storytelling and-
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. My mom was a librarian.
Courtney Gray:
Oh.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
That makes sense.
Vikki Tobak:
Yep.
Courtney Gray:
Okay.
Vikki Tobak:
So I guess through her, I have a love for books and publishing. Yeah. She was a librarian. She knew the Dewey Decimal system by heart, and my dad was an electrical engineer, but books were something that were really treasured in our world, and we came here without any material possession, so we didn't have a lot of books in the house, but I was always going to libraries, going to bookstores, falling down a rabbit hole at both of those places.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
I can relate to that. My mother was an English professor, so it was all around us.
Vikki Tobak:
Yep. Yep.
Courtney Gray:
I still correct people's grammar. It's like a habit.
Vikki Tobak:
Right. Exactly.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. So I'm beginning to understand, you guys need to look at this book too. It's Ice Cold. I'm sitting here with a copy. It's weighing down my desk. It's a gigantic, amazing, talk about storytelling through photography, the imagery, and the essays. And that's what I really love about this book is these essays that you had others write and that you wrote, Vikki. They're amazing. Usually you see a book like this and it's all about the image. Right?
Vikki Tobak:
That's right. No. And thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to actually read it because I keep telling people, this is a beautiful coffee table book, but don't only, you're doing yourself a disservice if you just look at the photos and don't read the stories and the essays.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. When did it become important for you to make this book of particularly hip-hop jewelry? Was there something that kind of pinged for you, or how did that come to life?
Vikki Tobak:
If you've been around hip-hop culture for any length of time, you know that jewelry has always been an integral part. Just like the fashion elements were such a big part of hip hop, the jewelry was definitely part of the style. So it's something that I just always remembered, even from seeing people in clubs or seeing what the rappers that I was around were wearing and what that represented. But I really started to focus on that element when I did my previous book, which is Contact High a Visual History of Hip Hop, because that was really kind of a book celebrating the photographers who documented the culture and also just what hip hop looked like. And so just like you're looking at all the details and all those little visual signifiers in the photo and jewelry was just so dominant. Yeah. And then also a friend of mine was doing a documentary about the subject, and it just all came together.
Courtney Gray:
I just find it so interesting how we fall into things in our lives and the path to get there is so unique for everybody. You never know where you're going to end up, what's going to grab you. You know?
Vikki Tobak:
It's so true. And I think we live in a world where everything is so planned out and everyone's got their five-year plan and all of this, which is great, but truly life sometimes leads you places that, at the time, you may wonder why. But I'm so grateful for landing in Detroit, and if you would've asked me when I was there growing up, I would've been like, oh my God, why did we land in Detroit? The Detroit of the eighties was a tough place. But that's one example of what shaped me and made me who I am today. So you're right. Yeah. Life does kind of move you in certain ways.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. Trust it. And let go a little bit and follow the lead.
Vikki Tobak:
Yep.
Courtney Gray:
Let's talk a little bit about these essays in Ice Cold, the role I loved... You get into everything here. It seems like there's a lot more to learn, of course, with any subject. But what I really loved is some of the topics that Vikki puts in the book, you guys, is the role of gold and diamonds inside of this culture of hip-hop royalty and king making. I loved reading about that, and I'm hoping maybe you can unpack some of this further for us, the significance of the hoops as unapologetic sexuality, which I didn't realize that this is what these large hoops are representing. I don't know, is there a certain topic that you could unpack a little deeper with us?
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. I mean, one thing, the reason why I wanted to have so much context and writing in this book is because the jewelry, it's not just conspicuous consumption. It's not just bling, bling life. There's more to it. There's layers to it. There's layers of identity. There's layers of symbolism. And there's also layers of it being tied to African aesthetics and the past. So when you talk about gold and diamonds and commodities and their role in history, their very complicated role in history, you have to explain that a lot of times these diamonds were used in conflicts in a part of the world that's very tied to hip hop music and culture. A lot of the aesthetics like kings and queens and pharaohs used to use gold and gemstones as a way to communicate status and wealth. And that's a dynamic that you can trace right on to today.
And just in different link styles that are popular in different parts of the country. And you know, mentioned like hoop earrings. When you look back at different cultures in Africa, the Ashanti or the Tuareg rings, the shapes and the way they're worn are also very, very similar. So there's just a lot of connections. Sometimes people that wear them know that connection. Sometimes they don't. But you hear it a lot in lyrics. Kanye famously made a song Diamonds from Sierra Leone talking about his own inner struggle with wearing and wanting these things that are also tied to conflict. And thankfully, the industry has really moved and made great strides in making sure that conflict diamonds or the way mining practices and equity has come a long way and probably still has a long way to go. But those are all kind of tangential issues that are all part of this book. So on the one hand, people look at it and there's a wow factor. Right? Because these pieces are so amazing, but you know, you can peel back the layers of the onion and really go a lot deeper.
Courtney Gray:
You find you the meaning. Why the big-name plates. And I also really enjoyed learning about the use of alternative material in efforts of anti-consumerism and bamboo and leather, when those elements started coming into play a little bit more. That was pretty fascinating. I know that's a big topic right now with the jewelry industry in particular, is consumption of materials from the earth. Talk to us a little bit about the alternative materials that you discovered.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. Well, in the nineties, hip hop music was having this moment. They call it Afrocentric or conscious hip hop, where there was artists like De La Soul, Queen Latifah, Public Enemy started to embrace more like Afrocentric identity. And that showed in the jewelry. So instead of wearing a lot of gold and diamonds, you started to see beads being used or leather medallions often depicting Africa or just even Afrocentric colors. They were much less expensive for sure, but they were kind of a moment where the lyrics were unpacking some things both in America and historically, and the jewelry just reflected that. So there was a little bit of a backlash against gold. And I mean, diamonds weren't really a thing then, but just these more expensive consumer materials. And then also understanding what was going on with conflict materials at the time too.
So that was a big thing in the nineties, and I wanted to make sure that that was included in the book because that was a really important moment. And I think if you fast forward onto today, like you said, there's a lot of people talking about it in the jewelry world, depleting the earth of these important commodities and recycling. And even things like CBD diamonds, there's a big controversy around as you know probably just man-made diamonds versus natural diamonds, and just even us being able to make diamonds in the lab. Some might argue that that's better for the earth. Some might argue that it's not real diamonds. And anyways, I've been hearing a lot of the jewelers go back and forth on that.
Courtney Gray:
I'm trying to remember which essay I read that, I think it was one of yours, Vikki, that mentioned that the pressurizing of these elements to create a diamond and how it related to the situation of some of these people on the streets and the songs that were coming out of that kind of environment of pressure is-
Vikki Tobak:
I wrote in the for the forward.
Courtney Gray:
Okay. Yeah.
Vikki Tobak:
That pressure creates diamonds and that you can make that analogy for hip hop culture too, is that, you know, you take something, an everyday thing like carbon and you put it under pressure and it creates this great thing of excellence. I think that's a really good analogy.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. I really resonated with that analogy a lot. I want to read a quote from the intro of this book, Ice Cold, that Slick Rick Ricky Walters was contributing. He contributed the one essay. Correct?
Vikki Tobak:
No. He wrote the forward to the book...
Courtney Gray:
Just the forward.
Vikki Tobak:
... which I'm so grateful for because he's the icon. But we have also essays LL Cool J wrote about a trip that he took to Sierra Leone in 1988, and then we have Coach K who wrote an essay for the Coach K and Pee from Quality Control wrote the closing essay in the book, and ASAP Ferg also contributed an essay.
Courtney Gray:
How fun. Did you get to sit and work with these guys and go back and forth with the writing?
Vikki Tobak:
I was doing the book over quarantine. That's when the bulk of the work was getting done.
Courtney Gray:
Interesting.
Vikki Tobak:
There wasn't as much in-person back and forth collaboration as I would normally do when I would do a book, but we got it done.
Courtney Gray:
That's kind of a nice thing to work on in quarantine, I would think.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
There could be worse things to be doing with your alone time.
Vikki Tobak:
That's right.
Courtney Gray:
Do you mind if I give our people here a little quote from Slick Rick's intro? You guys got to buy the book though still though. We're not just going to read it to you. I just love this one quote. It kind of solidified things for me understanding too and learning about hip hop jewelry and the history here, the deep history. He says jewelry speaks silently but screams personality. Displaying our opulence affirms the traditions of wealth of our culture. I personally adore the stuff because I feel it in my DNA. My jewels are my superhero suit, an extension of my beautiful brown skin.
It's a gift from ancestors who sat on thorns and reigned with rings and rocks the size of ice cubes. And I would just totally read this whole essay to you guys because I just love it. But we'll leave a little mystery left there, Vikki, for all the people who don't know about this yet and don't know about this amazing book that's been put together. What in your eyes, Vikki, is the most substantial thing that you learned? I know you've been in this environment. You grew up in Detroit. You probably are seeing things firsthand more than some of us. What did you learn that was maybe new information or more substantial than what you had known before the research that you put into this book?
Vikki Tobak:
I mean, I've been asked that question a couple times now, and I don't want...
Courtney Gray:
Oh. I thought it was super original.
Vikki Tobak:
No. No. No. No. I don't mean it to say...
Courtney Gray:
No. I'm kidding.
Vikki Tobak:
... I'm tired of answering it. I say that to say that I wish I had a better answer by now that I came into it sort of knowing a lot just through the years of being around it and loving it and knowing what the significance and the role of jewelry was. So I think the part of it that really surprised me was just how few of the early folks still have their jewelry, have their important pieces that are in the book.
I mean, they've either been lost on tour buses or sold or given away or so that was surprising to me because these pieces hold such a sort of storified place, in my mind. Slick Rick has all his pieces, so that's awesome.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah.
Vikki Tobak:
So that surprised me. And then just a lot of the more nuts and bolts of how the industry has grappled with commodities, and I think the thing that also surprised me was the lack of equity on the jeweler side and on the industry side, and maybe didn't surprise me, surprise is the wrong word, but just something that I had never really sat with before and did in the process of writing this book.
Courtney Gray:
The jewelers in particular, it's definitely something that we should discuss. We are here on For The Love of Jewelers, and I think it'd be interesting to hear some of the stories. Like I know there was some competition with who gets to make wet for whom, and can you share maybe a favorite story of one of these, the jewelry makers behind the scenes? I'm sure there's some characters there.
Vikki Tobak:
There are. Well, just like in fashion, the mainstream jewelers, the Tiffany's and the Cartier’s, and the Van Cleef’s of the world weren't really interested in working with hip hop in the early days, weren't really interested in having them represent their brands in the early days. So it really did give rise to this crop of jewelers that really specialized in the community and hip-hop artists. And there were pockets in Brooklyn and in Queens and in the Canal Street and Diamond District where the hip hop community would go and seek out these particular jewelers. And it was really kind of outside of that, the mainstream jewelry world, like I mentioned, which is so different from today where you see Tiffany and Ferg being the first hip hop ambassador for them and then Jay-Z and Beyonce appearing in ads. But the early jewelers had to understand something about hip hop, which is that hip hop loves customization and they love remixing and they love having something different from everybody else.
That applies to the music. That applies to the fashion. And it applies to the jewelry. So when you're making a piece for someone in hip hop, it's going to be a name plate with their individual names. It's going to be a character. It's going to be a special link. So a lot of these were really bespoke, unique pieces. Even the grills were very specific. So I just love, like every story is a story of one of a kind collaboration, but one in particular, I can think of, a lot of what people refer to as the earliest jeweler for hip hop is Tito Ceicedo, who ran his father's jewelry store called Manny's. So Tito of Manny's New York, and you hear him a lot in Biggie lyrics and early Jay-Z lyrics. He worked with Biz Markie early on and he was the one that also made Biggie's infamous Jesus piece.
So the story, and I interviewed his sister, Tito's no longer with us, but his sister, Sandy, I spoke with her at length for the book and she just shared so many stories of Tito and the early rappers that would just come in and seek out their booth in the Diamond District. And this story, I don't love this story, but it really struck me, is that those early molds for Biggie's Jesus piece were destroyed in storage, unfortunately from heat. So that no longer is a thing.
Courtney Gray:
Wow.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. I know. I feel like I'm telling...
Courtney Gray:
Wow.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. Because they were wax.
Courtney Gray:
Oh. The molds themselves.
Vikki Tobak:
Molds. Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
Okay. Not the jewelry, the mold.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
Oh. So I see. Well, they're truly one of a kinds out there then. The molds were destroyed.
Vikki Tobak:
Right. Right. Yeah. So I feel like I'm sharing not fun stories of who doesn't have their jewelry anymore and the molds that were destroyed, but...
Courtney Gray:
No. It's interesting.
Vikki Tobak:
... these are the things. Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
These are the realities that we, I think, can all relate to the makers behind the scenes.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
I was interested in hearing that there were a lot of immigrants and children of immigrants were the jewelers who were getting well known for this hip-hop jewelry customization.
Vikki Tobak:
Absolutely. I mean, that I think was such a cool aspect to the story, which I also kind of knew, but then once I really drilled down into researching was like, oh, wow. Pretty much every jeweler that serviced hip hop, and maybe even largely to this day, were either immigrants or children of immigrants. Eddie Plein, who had Eddie's Gold Teeth, who's credited as the first maker of grills was from Suriname. Tito Caicedo, who I just mentioned, was from Ecuador. There's a whole cadre of jewelers from the former Soviet Union, Uzbekistan particularly. Of course, Canal Street is a lot of Asian immigrants. And they're often moved to the same communities where hip hop was being born from, and their children certainly grew up as city kids and grew up on hip hop, grew up around, or with hip hop culture.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. And also it was kind of a natural evolution. Again, here's how we come into things.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
Interesting.
Vikki Tobak:
And I think there was a level of ease maybe with each other, even though they weren't a hip-hop kid from Brooklyn and Tito Caicedo from Ecuador aren't necessarily have similar come up stories, but I think there was a certain ease with each other because to a degree they were both outsiders to mainstream American culture, both trying to transcend their circumstances and trying to build something, whether it's a jewelry practice or a career as an emcee. So I think there was a lot of similarities between the folks who built these pieces.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. You mentioned remixing or remaking, the customization element, which I love. And again, I fell down the rabbit hole of research and found Hip-Hop Evolution on Netflix. I don't know if you've... Yeah.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. That's actually a great show.
Courtney Gray:
It's well done.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. Very well done. Yeah. Very detailed for folks who know the culture and for folks who don't, it's a really good education.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. It clicked for me reading the essays and then watching this. So once my eyes got tired and just thinking about how it relates to what we do as jewelers and makers and the remixing, taking things apart, reassembling, layering, customizing, repurposing, I just think it clicked for me, like wow, this completely relates art to music and jewelry to hip hop in general, the re-assemblage, et cetera. And just combining these design styles from history, it's what we do. Right? This is what we do as jewelers.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
Grandmother's ring, grandfather's ring, how can we repurpose it or take it apart, use the stones, make something new? Anyway, I just loved that moment of the aha where I was like, oh, I get it.
Vikki Tobak:
Yes.
Courtney Gray:
And the mix tapes, the idea of we are going to mix it. We're going to take something that's well known and we're going to take it apart and we're going to remix it and make this kind of mix. I don't know.
Vikki Tobak:
All of it. Sampling, Dapper Dan, creating jackets out of Gucci print leather, but making it for the style icon from Harlem. So really, and even sneaker culture was kind of born on that same element, having a colorway that nobody else has around. There's a book by my friend and legend, Bobbito, called, Where'd You Get Those? It was one of the first books about sneaker culture that came out years ago, but like Where'd You Get Those? Because having something that nobody else has made you the star of the street runway.
Courtney Gray:
Very representative. One of the things that stood out to me in the imagery of this book, the photography that you put together is how everybody's holding the piece way up front, so it's almost like in front of your face. And that was very consistent. It was like, this is what I want you to see. Don't even worry about the rest of it. It just goes to show how important these pieces are to these musicians and personalities. The nameplates in particular, I was like, wow, they're so just amazing. They're not subtle. I think that's a big point. This is not a subtle style. This is like-
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. Well, especially once diamonds came into the picture and just the size of the pieces, they are not subtle. I mean, they used to be more subtle, more like traditional name plates can be just a gold and script. But yeah, certainly a lot of the newer pieces are not subtle at all.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. I also really enjoyed reading about the iconic assemblage and imagery that's used in this work the Zodiac signs, animals... Is your spirit animal, is it a giant Jesus? Is it Nefertiti? There's just so many... It really makes you think about the history and the history behind.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. I mean, exactly. Like the Nefertiti piece is such an iconic, like symbol from hip hop from the start. I mean that, you know, you could see the Nefertiti piece on MC Lyte in 1985. And then I was just in Dubai and I saw Rapsody in concert, and she was wearing a giant gorgeous Nefertiti piece on stage.
Courtney Gray:
Oh wow.
Vikki Tobak:
Like almost the same size as her own head.
Courtney Gray:
Wow.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. So that's definitely an enduring symbol, but there are certain symbols that are so specific to hip hop. You mentioned the Nefertiti. You mentioned the Jesus piece. You mentioned certain link styles, but like the Mercedes symbol too is a big one. Also ankhs and crosses and things like that, or even certain saints too, St. Lazarus, St. Michael, those are also kind of symbols that you see a lot in hip hop jewelry.
Courtney Gray:
Is there, in your eyes, did you learn or do you know, is there a symbolism to the type of chain that one would pick or the links themselves? Did they have any significant meaning?
Vikki Tobak:
They don't have any necessarily significant meaning behind them, but they've been popular more during certain periods. Like the rope chain was very associated with the eighties, rope chain dookie ropes they call them. That was definitely a symbol of the eighties. And then they call it the Gucci link, like a puffy Gucci link, which I think is a tech technically called a mariner link, that too was sort of eighties and then came back. And then of course, the very classic Cuban link, which I think got more popular in the late nineties, but has been an enduring link style, and now it's worn shorter. It used to be where like men especially couldn't wear a choker style, and that's kind of changed. And then of course, pearls and more recent years, you see folks like A$AP Rocky wearing pearls or just a Pharrell wearing pearls and gemstones. So I think there's been just different time periods where different link styles have been more popular.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. So a more generational, the eighties, nineties with, you know... I remember when nugget rings were really big. When I worked in manufacturing, we'd bring a lot. We would see a lot of those come through the studio.
Vikki Tobak:
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Courtney Gray:
What can we do with this now? You know? Yeah. Very cool. Talk to us a little bit about, Vikki, thank you for sharing all this and taking time and for putting this together in general. I think it's such an important just artifact now to have and for people to learn more about this. And it's an entire different culture, I think, and its jewelry, is jewelry, but there's so much meaning behind this particular culture that I just think is really interesting for those of us who may not have been exposed to it. So thank you very much.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. I always say jewelry is like a subculture within hip hop culture.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. One thing that's been great with this book is that it's been resonating, obviously, with people who love hip hop, but also the jewelry world who may not know anything, if anything at all about hip hop. It's also interesting because there's so much to unpack.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. There is. You could tell this is the tip of the iceberg. And I want to ask you in a minute about future projects, but you also are a curator. Right? You curated a lot of photography exhibitions, including one on hip hop jewelry at ICP. I noticed when I was looking around.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. So I have worked as a curator as well. The kind of biggest, and most recent was the last book that I wrote, Contact High, we turned that into an exhibition that started at the Annenberg Space for Photography in LA back in 2019. And then that traveled to ICP in 2020 right before the pandemic closed us early. And that show now is at the Museum of Pop Culture in Seattle. It'll be there this whole year, 2023.
Courtney Gray:
Oh. You hear that, Seattle? Yeah. I got to get over there and check that out.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
Okay. Great.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. And I'm hoping to turn Ice Cold into an exhibit as well. I've had a couple meetings, nothing concrete yet, but I've had a couple meetings with some curators at places, because I just think it would be such a great exhibition that would be both jewelry and photography but seeing the jewelry in person I think would be really, really cool for people.
Courtney Gray:
Oh yeah. You would try to get, or you would be getting together this collection or a portion of the collection [inaudible 00:37:37].
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
Wow. That would be a sight to see for sure. Amazing. Wow. Yeah. It'd be a lot of bling in one building, like a lot.
Vikki Tobak:
That's right.
Courtney Gray:
The more I am reading this book, and like I said earlier, it's reminding me within all cultures that jewelry is this tangible intention of loyalty. This is a little shift of gears from talking about curating, but I loved the understanding of this is a meaning. It's an acceptance or it symbolizes a graduation. Kind of connecting as a tribe and creativity connecting through this creative outlet. I just really enjoyed, and that's relative across the board. I think we all, you know... That's why jewelers have a job, is the symbolism of this, the intention of the work, but specifically in hip hop jewelry, it's just so pronounced.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of my earliest memories with hip hop, well, there's always been, in hip hop, there's always been crews and kind of associations whether there's the Rock Steady Crew for Bboying or different little crews within hip hop that were just affiliated loosely. So the jewelry was really part of that. And labels would often, especially hip-hop labels, would kind of give chains to their artists as a way of showing affiliation and brotherhood and coming into the fold. And it was a little deeper than just, this is our new employee of the month. It meant something. Like if you were given a label chain really meant we really believe in you, and you're one of us now.
So early on, you know, you even had record labels Rawkus that made Rawkus chains, but the most notable one, of course, is the Rocafella chain. That was and is a chain that really has to be given to you. There's only certain jewelers that can make it. And in the beginning it really had to be sanctioned by Dame, Biggs, and Jay-Z, the three founders of Rocafella who got what. So those are really special pieces. And in Ice Cold, there's an essay from Coach K and Pee who have QC and they talk that having a QC chain now also is another, like it's a huge deal. So they write a little bit about that, about the book, but it really does symbolize a brotherhood and a affiliation with who you rep. And that means everything in hip hop, in culture in general, but in hip hop, again, it just takes on this bigger meaning.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. I love hearing about that. It's very interesting. The runway is the street. It's like the clothes, the cars are big. Why not the jewelry and showing out? What about chain snatching? Can we talk a little bit about that concept? Because I mean, this can also be dangerous, wearing giant jewelry on the streets and showing it out in that way could create conflict, I'd imagine.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. It's funny because when I turned in my script, I had written so, my editor was like, I think we need to cut the chains snatching part. He's like it takes up three pages in the book. I was like, what? Because again, being in New York in the early nineties and being around hip hop and hearing chain snatching and riding the subway, and it was a very kind of, again, storied thing that would everyone, if you knew and were around New York or hip-hop culture or club culture during that time, there were just so many instances of it.
And a lot of times it was very intentional with what artist got their chain snatched and by who, and it was like this intentional disrespect. So it wasn't just to necessarily take the chain for its monetary value, but it was to show that person that I'm disrespecting you, or so there's a lot of incidents like that. And also just everyday chain snatching was also very dangerous and still is. It still is. I mean, people, you hear stories even today of people getting targeted for their jewelry. But yeah, in hip hop it sort of took on this double meaning where sometimes it wasn't even just for gaining something that had all this value.
Courtney Gray:
It was like, I'm demoting you or [inaudible 00:43:15].
Vikki Tobak:
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And you almost wanted people to know that you snatched so and so's chain.
Courtney Gray:
Right.
Vikki Tobak:
But it also speaks to the fact that from the very early days, even with people that hip hop artists were looking up to before hip hop was even was an industry on the level that it is, the hustlers, the drug dealers, the folks in the street that could wear a certain level of jewelry, knowing that they were known and they were known that they can't be messed with. And so that was something that I even remember working at Nell's, which was an early club where a lot of hip-hop artists and music industry people came that, you know, you knew that if someone came in there wearing certain pieces, that they themselves understood that if something was attempted, that it wouldn't turn out well for the person.
Courtney Gray:
Right.
Vikki Tobak:
So you had to kind of in advance, have a certain confidence and status in being able to wear certain pieces.
Courtney Gray:
Wow. Yeah. Now that dates way back. Right?
Vikki Tobak:
Yes.
Courtney Gray:
Only the top get to wear the really, really big pieces. Interesting. Oh. Do you have a favorite? I want to talk to you about music. Do you have a favorite hip hop song or songs? You mentioned a playlist.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. Well, so I did create a, there's a Spotify playlist specifically for the book, which is all jewelry related songs. It's not necessarily my favorite songs from hip hop, it's more like jewelry...
Courtney Gray:
Relative. Yeah.
Vikki Tobak:
... songs that and the Ice Cold playlist on Spotify,
Courtney Gray:
It's called the Ice Cold Playlist?
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. How awesome. All right.
Vikki Tobak:
Yep. But for me, I don't have a favorite song. I have top five artists, but I, look, I'm like an old head. I like nineties hip hop. So all of my songs will be from Gang Starr, Nas, Eric B. And Rakim, Public Enemy. I'm very East Coast, nineties.
Courtney Gray:
Nineties.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. And the one exception to that is today I think Tyler, the Creator, is a complete and utter genius. So the IGOR album sits right up there with my all time. I'd put that album in my all times.
Courtney Gray:
Awesome. Yeah. You mentioned having the roots of being into funk and soul as well. You have a favorite soul singer or musician?
Vikki Tobak:
Oh. Yeah. I mean-
Courtney Gray:
There's just so much good stuff there.
Vikki Tobak:
There's so much good stuff. I mean, I was going to say Marvin Gaye, but I think also Anita Baker.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah.
Vikki Tobak:
That's someone that I grew up on in Detroit, and she was local, of course, so we loved her even more so. Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
You were surrounded with; you were in the heart of a lot of great music.
Vikki Tobak:
Oh yeah. Yeah. My friend was Aretha Franklin's mailman.
Courtney Gray:
What?
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. So they were like...
Courtney Gray:
Awesome.
Vikki Tobak:
.. just around. Yeah, P-funk would play, and then of course, all the early house DJs. Yeah, so...
Courtney Gray:
How fun. How fun.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
Very cool. Well, Vikki, I'm so happy we spent this time talking about the book, and there's so much more I want to talk to you about, but share with us any future projects you're, what are you working on behind the scenes now?
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. I mean, I can share a couple things. I'm actually working with LL Cool J on a book that's going to be out this year called Make Some Noise, which is like a celebration of hip-hop greats origin stories. It's going to be a collection of origin stories and hip-hop greats. So I'm working on that now. And then I'm also working on a style history of basketball culture. That'll be sort of a longer lead project, but those are sort of my two things that I'm down a rabbit hole of research right now, which I love.
Courtney Gray:
Is that one of your favorite parts of, is the research part of creating these collections and books?
Vikki Tobak:
Yes.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah.
Vikki Tobak:
I mean, I think that also maybe is tied with my mom being a librarian and me just spending so much time and getting lost in reference books and libraries, and I think my research process is probably longer than most, and it's sometimes harder to kind of edit. That's why I'm like, thank goodness for editors, because I amass so much research in my physically, and then also just in my head that sometimes that's why I end up turning in three pages on chains snatching, and my editor has to... So thank you, shout out to my editors. [inaudible 00:48:51]
Courtney Gray:
All the editors out there. Yeah.
Vikki Tobak:
All the editors out there, you do God's work.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. Yeah. To take, I know it can be so big picture. It's like all the things and how do you get it into cohesive language and collection.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
But this book, Ice Cold, is how big is this? How many pages is this?
Vikki Tobak:
It is...
Courtney Gray:
I'm just looking at it. It's 387.
Vikki Tobak:
Yes.
Courtney Gray:
But that includes, yeah, oh man. It's amazing. You guys, this is such a hearty, amazing book, and I really love the size of it because to me, it's like the represents the size of these pieces of art the hip hop jewelers are making and the musicians are wearing, and it just makes sense. It's like, oh yeah, of course it's going to be...
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. You got to see the details.
Courtney Gray:
... a 40-pound book. Yeah.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. Blow it up. Well, what else can we share with the community while we have you about this in particular, or you, and what you're working on? I'd love to just hear from you.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. I mean, I kind of covered the projects that I'm working on, and Contact High is going to be in Seattle this whole year, so definitely check it out. That museum is incredible. Museum of Pop Culture. On Instagram, I'm @VikkiTobak, and then @ContactHigh has its own life on Instagram. And yeah, I think that's about it.
Courtney Gray:
And the playlist, Ice Cold.
Vikki Tobak:
Yep.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah, on Spotify. All right. Well, Vikki, thanks again. And, you guys, definitely go check this out. What's the best place to find the book?
Vikki Tobak:
It's available pretty much everywhere books are sold, but you can order it from the TASCHEN website. I mean, I always encourage people to support their local independent bookstores, and a lot of them are actually carrying this book. We also, I don't know when this is airing, but we're doing an event with the Gucci store February 11th in New York. So if there's any jewelers or anyone that wants to meet me or see the book in person, that's an event that we have coming up. But again, not sure if this is going to air before that.
Courtney Gray:
We can try. We can try. That's February 11th, 2023 too, to be specific.
Vikki Tobak:
Yeah. And that the bookstore at the Gucci store is run by one of my favorite bookstores of all time called Dashwood. So if you come there and buy a book, you'll be supporting independent bookstores, as well.
Courtney Gray:
Yeah. Which is so important, yeah, with everything becoming digitized and accessible in that form, we really need to support the bookstores. Seattle has a really... Is that where the gigantic bookstore is, it's a city block? Or am I thinking of a different state?
Vikki Tobak:
Oh. I don't know, but I'll have to look for that next time I go visit MoPOP.
Courtney Gray:
You would know. I think it might be that I'm thinking of a different state. But anyway. Well, on that note, Vikki, thank you again for sharing with us today. And we will say onward and upward and keep digging, keep researching. You guys, there's so much to this culture in particular of hip-hop jewelry, and again, Vikki, thanks for bringing this to life for us.
Vikki Tobak:
Thank you. Thank you for having me. This was fun.
Courtney Gray:
Absolutely. My pleasure.
Courtney Gray:
Thanks for tuning in you guys. I hope you have enjoyed this episode of For the Love of Jewelers. Thank you, John. Alright onward and upward. Thanks for tuning in you guys. I hope you have enjoyed this episode of For the Love of Jewelers. Stayed tuned for the next episode by subscribing though Spotify, iTunes or by searching podcast at RioGrande.com. I encourage you to rate us, write a review and share with friends and colleagues. I hope you’re all finding ways to stay inspired. I’m your host Courtney Gray. Until we meet again, onward and upward.