Fearlessly Facing Fifty And Beyond

EP202: Bestie or Bust? Fearlessly Facing Our Friendships

• Amy Schmidt • Season 3 • Episode 202

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And the "F WORD" is: FRIENDSHIP. Fearlessly Facing our friendships as we age.

Friendship expert Danielle Bayard Jackson unpacks the science of women's platonic relationships and offers practical strategies for navigating friendship challenges after 50. Research shows that loneliness increases cognitive decline, dementia, and heart disease by 32% in women over 50, making our friendship connections crucial for health and wellbeing.

• Reframing being "new" as an advantage when entering social situations
• Using the "acceptance prophecy" to approach social situations with confidence 
• Understanding how online friendships should supplement not replace in-person connections
• Handling reciprocity issues by framing concerns as invitations rather than accusations
• Recognizing when a friendship has run its course and how to navigate ending relationships
• Honoring your authentic self in friendship while remaining open to growth
• Taking control of your friendship journey by stepping outside your comfort zone

Find Danielle's book "Fighting for Our Friendships: The Science and Art of Conflict and Connection in Women's Relationships" anywhere books are sold and check out her podcast "Friend Forward" for more insights on women's friendships.


Ready to FEARLESSLY FACE all the F WORDS - be educated, inspired and encouraged?
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Fearlessly Facing Fifty and Beyond has over 200 episodes with Inspo and stories to age fearlessly and connect confidently to others thriving at midlife and beyond.

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Ready to FEARLESSLY FACE all the F WORDS – be inspired and encouraged?

Get a copy of Amy’s Best selling book: CANNONBALL! FEARLESSLY Facing Midlife and Beyond here

Fearlessly Facing Fifty and Beyond has over 200 episodes with inspiration and stories to age fearlessly and connect confidently to others thriving at midlife and beyond.

Make sure to share with friends and family and would love if you could leave a review. There are so many shows out there floating around and if you are finding value in the Fearlessly Facing Fifty podcast share it with the world – a review means so much.

And don’t forget to follow along on all the socials:

http://instagram.com/theamy.schmidt

https://www.instagram.com/fearlesslyfacingfifty_fwords/

https://www.facebook.com/fearlesslyfacingfifty/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/amy-schmidt-a5684412/

Speaker 1:

Hey, fearless Friends. It's Amy Schmidt, and so excited to be back with you today with another great guest. You know I wanted to tell you a little bit about one of those F-words that we're going to be facing this week in this episode, and that F-word is friends. So we are fearlessly facing friendships and you know, after 50, it can be a challenge. So today's guest is a friendship expert. I've had her before on my show and I really, really adore her and her work and I'm so excited to introduce her, or reintroduce her, back to the show.

Speaker 1:

Danielle Bayer Jackson is a women's relational health educator who speaks nationally about the science of women's platonic connections. She's the director of the Women's Relational Health Institute and also the author of Fighting for Our Friendships the Science and Art of Conflict and Connection in Women's Relationships. All right, let's dig into this, because this is a big one. So, danielle, welcome to the show. Well, here she is. I mean, this is a woman that what I talked about in the intro. She's like a friendship rock star. Danielle, welcome, I'm so glad to be back. Thank you for having me. Yeah, you know, we were together. We just talked a little bit before we started recording. We were together years ago I did a live show and actually I think it was 2020, because I think we were amidst all the chaos of COVID, yeah, and you were on and you are just, you're really a shining star and I have to say to everybody listening and for those of you that are watching, it's fun to watch Danielle, because you've done so much and you are a busy mom and wife as well, right.

Speaker 2:

That is true. That is true, but by the grace of God I'm still here.

Speaker 1:

And we just keep rocking it. You gotta keep rocking it here and we just keep rocking it. Yeah, you got to keep rocking it, yeah. And I'd love seeing some of the campaigns you worked on. You worked on one gosh, was it around the holidays with Turkey, or something like that a couple of years ago. Yeah, we've done.

Speaker 2:

Butterball and Bumble and Amazon Prime and so many cool opportunities which you know is. It's kind of interesting to watch because when I first got into the business of helping women with their friendships, I mean I was quite literally kind of chuckled at when I first announced that I was going to take that career direction. So to see a growing interest in our relational health makes me really happy and I'm so honored to be a part of that movement.

Speaker 1:

Isn't it amazing? I do think you know. I read a statistic and you're going to know more about the science of this than me being an expert but 32% of people. There was a statistic around loneliness and it was specific to women and this was more of women 50 plus, but there was like a 32% increase in cognitive decline and dementia and heart disease because of loneliness and dementia and heart disease because of loneliness.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, you know. I hope that's one of many reasons why people begin to have a sense of urgency around leaning into and tending to the quality of their platonic relationships. I think all too often or at least 10 years ago people kind of saw friendships as something you push into the margins I'll get to it when I've got time. We see it as something too engaging when we want somebody to just hang out with and do something with recreationally and that's all fun and those are benefits of friendship. But when you start to see research around how it has a direct impact on your physical, mental and emotional health, I hope that encourages us to tend to it with a little more fire, a little more urgency, a little more urgency around it.

Speaker 1:

Well, you know, think back to those necklaces. I wrote about friendships over 50 a long time ago on a blog and it was remember those necklaces that were like half said best and the other one said or BFF, or whatever, and you can one wore one and the other one middle school, high school or whatever, and you can one more one and the other one middle school, high school, whatever. You know, I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to find, like, like we need to have a best friend, like you know, that that friend that we're, we see at the, at the yoga class, we're like, I don't know if I really want to, I don't know if she can be a best friend. We don't have to have a million best friends, right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, that's true. The latest study I've seen said that 40% of people do not have a best friend, and hey, I get it, especially for women. The research tells us that women are more dyadic than men, meaning we tend to split off one-to-one and that is one of the reasons why our friendships have more platonic intimacy, because it's just me and you in this private vault where we're engaging in mutual self-disclosure. So to some degree I understand the desire to be intimately known by another woman and we have this unique, deep relationship. That is true.

Speaker 2:

But I also see what you see around that pressure to find the person. I do think it makes us secretly audition women who we encounter. I do think that for some women I've heard almost a sense of shame around not having one, like what's wrong with me, that I don't have a bestie. Then we're forcing it with people who aren't meant to be and we're discounting people who could still offer value to our lives but they're not the perfect package. So I agree with you that it can be problematic, depending on if we're holding it to like this high aspirational thing, because we might be missing out on a lot of the good stuff. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:

Well, let's walk through this scenario because I know a lot of women that are listening are going through this. So I got to be honest. I've moved 13 times and this is another move here where I'm sitting today, you know. So I've moved a lot and with my family and my husband and I was always that person that would be walking in with, like feeling like I'm wearing that sash that says talk to me, I'm new, like new kid on the block, you know always and and it at times it gets really hard and I have to be honest with you We'll talk about this a little later but it's gotten harder for me and I have more confidence than I've ever had.

Speaker 1:

But yet, boy, I still got to walk into new communities now and feel that, so walk me through. Somebody that's listening, that's maybe in a new community and they're going to a PTA meeting and they're walking into that auditorium you know how it is and you see women that are mingling and they're talking and they're laughing and all of a sudden, you that's walking in that doesn't know anybody is getting a rash, their heart starts palpitating. You know the whole thing. How can we get to be our best confident self, walking in a new situation like that, searching for some new friends.

Speaker 2:

The first is a mindset thing. So I have some technical stuff but a mindset thing and that is almost see being the new person as an advantage. So often we see it as a disadvantage. So we think, oh, I'm coming in late, I'm behind everybody else's. Their friendships are already formed. I hear that a lot. Well, everybody else already has.

Speaker 2:

So, I already see myself as coming in as a loss, but what if I saw it as a benefit? I'm here to experiment. I'm here to establish some new ties. I feel like when you're new, that's kind of an end. I mean, you can easily go to anyone and say I'm new here. What do you recommend? People love giving their two cents. A lot of people actually gravitate toward the newbie, right? I know I do, and I'm like girl. Let me tell you everything you need to know, right? So start to see. Okay, could this be an advantage? My position, a person people want to cling to and share with, and I have so many questions, so there's actually something kind of you have kind of an edge being new. That's an advantage.

Speaker 2:

The second thing and this is a tip that comes from Dr Marissa Franco, who's the author of the book Platonic, but she always says expect to be liked. There's something known as the gosh. What is it? There's this idea around oh, the acceptance prophecy, and the idea is that people who expect to be accepted typically are, and those who are anticipating rejection typically get it.

Speaker 2:

And the way this works is because if I expect that I'm going to be liked when I'm here, I've probably got my eyes up. I'm probably unafraid to enter into conversations. I'm laughing introducing myself because I know that you're going to like me, but if I expect you're going to reject me. Whether it's because I think that other women are jealous which I've heard women say whether I think that there's just something about me that's not likable right, the people here are mean. I go in with my head down. I'm engaging in avoidant behaviors like just kind of scrolling on the phone. I'm not getting into conversations because I don't want to be a burden. So now others walk away like wow, she didn't talk much, she wasn't smiling, and so it's almost a fulfilling prophecy. So I think those two things could be really helpful in kind of shifting the dynamics in the room.

Speaker 1:

I like that because you actually, in the first scenario, you kind of reframe that and you kind of walk in feeling like a rock star, right. You kind of feel like, hey, they want to know me, they want to know me. And from the other part of that, women are sharers, right, we love to share. So you're right, ask them. You know what's the stuff to do around here, what's the? Oh, those were two great hints right there. That eases that a little bit, because you know how that is. I mean, it's intimidating, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, and I get it. I've been there too. I'd like to think I'm a confident, self-assured, charismatic woman, and there are times where I'm like, okay, like a little anxiety bubbling up. But I have to coach myself. That's a big part of it too. If you're thinking that everybody else has got it figured out and you don't, no, we all are trying to figure this out. Maybe we're confident in some scenarios more than others, but I've got to coach myself through in the moment and tell myself the same things I just shared. Okay, I got this. I'm just going to ask questions. There's probably some nice people here. I just need to show up. I've got to talk myself through, walking in with my head up and with a smile just as much as anyone, and typically it tends to have positive outcomes.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I love that. I love that, and we do. We have to. You know, really, that that inner cheerleader has to come out and that inner critic is always there and that's so noisy. But we've got to have that inner cheerleader, we've got to walk in. And I don't know if you agree with me on this or not, but you know it's kind of a worst case scenario thing. I say this so often. I raised three kids. They're all grown now, but I still say to them what's the worst case scenario? I think we have to, you know, kind of adopt that mindset too. What's the worst case? They don't like me, all right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's great. You know, when I'm working with clients, that's one of the things that we pause to talk about because they'll say, well, I just, I don't know, it's just feel so awkward and I'll ask okay, what is the worst thing you're expecting to happen? Like, what's the thing that you're hoping doesn't happen? I don't know that I walk up to the table and they give me a dirty look or look at me like I'm stupid for talking, and I'll say, okay, let's say they do, because if we're being honest, that's totally a possibility. Then what? And then often the client will say, well, I mean, I guess I just walk away. That's right. So sometimes lean into the thing you're scared about happening to give you an opportunity to brainstorm how you'd respond, and we find that more than 90% of the time, oh, it's survivable. Yeah, deeply uncomfortable, but survivable, and it kind of takes some of the power out of that worst case scenario.

Speaker 1:

Great point, great point. Let's talk a little bit about the power of the internet and these virtual friendships. I mean, it's kind of crazy. Like you know, we talk about loneliness and we talk about all this, but all of a sudden there's, you know, people that are having engaging online. They may not even met them in person, but yet they consider them a friend because they're an online friend. I mean, are these real? Are these really sustainable friendships?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know it's tough, because I know that a lot with the ubiquity of digital connections, when people are going to start forming what they identify as friendships, and who am I to say that's a real friend, that's not? I will say this some things for people to consider. The first is do you find that the way that you're engaging digitally with people, is it supplementing your friendship landscape or is it replacing your friendship landscape? That's the main question, because I'm not here to qualify your friendship, but that's a big question. If I find that I'm turning to texting and calling and DMing you and this and that, and I'm liking and commenting and sharing and I'm like, yeah, yeah, I keep up with my friends and that's the whole of our interaction, there's something wrong with that, assuming this person's not a long distance friend, there's something wrong with that. So it should be supplemental, it should not be a substitution. That's something to look at, because I also wonder how that leans into social anxiety, because I'm not out with people, so now I'm scared going out with people. So you know. So it's just. It becomes like this cycle Right, and and and again.

Speaker 2:

I know some people will say, well, I use it because you know I'm never going to see this person there across the country. There are so many benefits, you know. Thank God for the internet. It's creating certain communities for people who don't have that where they physically live. Maybe you have a certain faith or very niche interests, or a child with a chronic illness and these people get it and they don't live by you. Thank God for that. That you can feel affirmed and get support and be a resource. That's one aspect of your community. You still need people in person and so that would be my main thing to help people kind of gauge their relationship with social media connections is is it supplementing or is it replacing? Because that makes all the difference.

Speaker 1:

Oh, supplementing or replacing, oh, I like that. I like that a lot. Let's talk about this whole reciprocating thing. It's a thing. Now, you know, I'm in my 50s, so you know, you invite someone over for dinner and then there's this whole. I think we were raised this way. Gen Xers were like, okay, well then they need to reciprocate. You know, this whole reciprocating thing, is that still a thing? Is it? Should it be like a scorecard, should it not? Let's, let's walk through that, okay.

Speaker 1:

So first, I want to say that this is probably deep sky, heavy sky.

Speaker 2:

There's so much there, you know. First, I want to say that if I had to rank the top three issues women bring to me, reciprocity is on that list, and that's consistent with the research that finds that that is something that women deeply value in their same-sex friendships. Reciprocity, everything equal, everything balanced. I do wonder if some people are a bit more conscientious than others. When we look at the five they call them the big five personality traits, one domain is conscientiousness, which means you're very aware of other situations and you feel very dutiful and systematic and organized, and so a part of that is feeling like showing up for others, keeping your word. I found that those people are more attuned to like hey, I did this. Now the right thing to do, or the obvious, nice, polite, mannerable thing to do is they invite me. I think people who are more conscientious sense that and others might not. Okay, and the last thing I'll say is you know, to that person who's like I really want reciprocity If I can offer a little bit of ease and insight, is totally still desire that, because friendships should feel balanced and I'm never wondering if I'm more invested than the other person. 100%. A couple of things to offer relief. The first is look for other ways the person might be contributing, because a lot of us are familiar with love languages. Maybe I'm showing up in a certain way and because I value that, I'm looking for it Like I'm giving it, so I want it back. But is it possible that my friend showing up by being highly attentive to the things I share, she's following up hey, how was that doctor's appointment? Are you doing good? We laugh together. Is she thinking she is contributing? But it just doesn't mirror mine. So I'm dissatisfied. So look at that. Is she giving or not giving the way you like? The second step would be tell her the way you want her to give. Gosh, darn it, you have permission.

Speaker 2:

So often we are dissatisfied but then we think I shouldn't have to say it. It should be obvious. I shouldn't have to say it. But what I've noticed is we don't do that in any other relational context. We want something from our kids, we say it. We want something from our husband. We're like babe. We want something from our kids, we say it. We want something from our husband. We're like babe, we need to talk. We are not feeling good with our employee. We have performance reviews, dedicated time to talk about our progress, but for some reason, we believe that in a friendship with another woman, she should just know that and then, when she doesn't, I'm silently penalizing her for it, and before I know it, we're drifting away.

Speaker 2:

So package it. The last thing I'll say is package it as an invitation instead of an accusation. So instead of you never share, you never invite me. No one's going to respond well to that. I wouldn't. But if it's like, hey, I know, the last couple of times we got together, I had you come over here, but I definitely want things to be balanced. So I'm happy to come to your place. I know that you're a good cook. I want to put my feet up and I want you to make me your special pot roast. It's playful, but my subtext is the same. It's your turn, but I'm saying it because I want more of you. I just would like it to look a little different, and the right people want the data on how to love you well.

Speaker 1:

The wrong people will become indignant and that says something Danielle, you are a rock star. You are a rock star. I love that Invitation over accusation. I wrote it down because those are two powerful words. So true. I love that because that whole reciprocity thing it's big, so you just hit that out of the ballpark, for so many people are going. Oh okay, yeah, it's my turn. Yeah, oh yeah. I'm just going to text right now as I'm listening to this.

Speaker 1:

Let's talk about this whole breakup thing. This came up over the summer with one of my really good friends and I think we were out for a walk and she said Aimee, you got to have a show on how to break up with friends, because it's a real thing, we put a lot of time, a lot of effort, all of that, and I think we need to at least from my perspective. I feel like we need to give ourselves that gift of grace of like okay, if this isn't working anymore, if it's not blooming at this particular season, it's okay, we can break up. But man, it's hard. So give us some tips on how to go about it. What are kind of the signals of all right, this, this is not a sustainable friendship, it's not working for either of us. It's time to break up. Walk us through that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so first you know that happens. The research says that we tend to replace half of our friends every seven years.

Speaker 1:

Like like when our hair changes every seven years. Come on, Seriously, I know that cycle of seven.

Speaker 2:

I've even heard like your taste buds change every seven years or something, so there's something about that number seven right.

Speaker 2:

But wow, I hope that that shows us that that there is this natural pruning that is happening. So if you're feeling ashamed about the friendship not working out which I hear from a lot of women they feel guilty or what's wrong with me that I can't keep a friendship. I see a lot of shame in that or if you're holding onto it for reasons of desperation way long past its expiration date, they're supposed to evolve Now. On the same side, I want to say because I've also worked with several women who are leaving at the sign of any discomfort or inconvenience Now is the issue really you don't know how to navigate conflict really well, that's something else. If, when you look at lots of your friendships, it ended when you got overwhelmed by the things that were bothering you and you said nothing, you get offended easily. So some of this is what's your capacity for friction and discomfort? Let's look at that.

Speaker 2:

But assuming all that stuff's good and it really is time to let go, some indicators might be if you find that you are depleted after you guys spend time together and I'm not talking like I'm so tired from laughing so hard You're exhausted. You're exhausted. Whether she complains the whole time didn't ask about you. She's talking about that traumatic thing again, and it's the only thing we talk about. It is tiring to get together. That says something If you find that you don't like who you are in the friendship, because friendships activate different sides of ourselves. So if I'm thinking man, I like who I am in other dynamics, but when we come together I don't know, I don't like who I am. I find myself being tense or walking on eggshells. I find myself gossiping more than normal. I find myself getting a little snarky, but I don't do that with other people, but when I get with her I'm snarky. Look at that. That says something. Are you growing here right?

Speaker 2:

If you find yourself fearful that if you were your full self or if you spoke up fully, you'd be penalized in some way? She operates in a very punitive way. That's too great a cost. That's too great a cost. And finally, if you find that the only reason you're staying is because you've been friends for so long, that's it. I think that's something worth looking at too, because she's taken up the space that somebody else could be in. I'm not saying it won't be painful, I'm not saying it won't cause discomfort, but those are some indicators to look at that. Maybe it might be time to release that relationship. I love that and that's really treating, to release that relationship.

Speaker 1:

I love that and that's really treating, it's giving ourselves a gift, it's loving ourself. It's taking the time of self-reflection, self-awareness, actually stepping aside off that crazy hamster wheel and looking at okay, how is this friendship going? Henry Cloud wrote a great book I'm sure you've read it Necessary Endings, and I think that, like you said at the beginning, kind of that pruning thing, there are times when there's necessary endings because you're moving on, you're growing in a different way and you kind of you know, in that friendship too, that you have to end. For those reasons that you mentioned I can think of. You know people on the top of my head I don't have many, but there's a few that you feel like you're doing all the work or you feel like you're, or you do walk away a little deflated. Those are tough. Those are tough things to do, though it's tough to break up.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, oh, it definitely is. And and you know I say this too because I know some people are can be kind of flippant about friendship endings. Well, you know what? Well, now I'm cutting her off. I'm done with that. And I just want to say, for those who are having trouble with it but know it's time, I'm with you Because we're not just saying goodbye to the bad stuff, you're also about to release the good stuff too. That's what makes it so difficult. So I'm not just.

Speaker 2:

Two years ago I had a friendship that sunsetted and I felt a lot of embarrassment around it, if I'm being honest, because I thought here I am doing this work and I can't make it work. So I felt the same things, and the reason it was so hard is, even though this person was saying and doing things that were not okay and broke my trust. I also was really sad, because we have inside jokes, we know each other's children. Because we have inside jokes, we know each other's children. She has my back and has inspired me in a lot of ways, but it didn't feel safe and so it was complicated and it was difficult, and that's often going to happen with women's friendships, because the research shows that we integrate our women friends into our lives to the degree of a sibling men to the degree of a cousin. So it is going to be hurtful when this ends, because you're my sister, you're not just my friend.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, oh, well said, let's talk introverts and extroverts. I have three kids. I have two very big extroverts that are kind of bookending, kind of a middle one that's a little more introverted. Do introverts tend to kind of gravitate to other introverts? Is it better for an introvert to maybe you know gravitate more towards extroverts? Is there any science around that? That's so interesting.

Speaker 2:

You know, I've heard both ways. So I've heard some introverts who enjoy people who can kind of move at their same pace. They feel comfortable, they feel like the other person just gets it. I've also seen a lot of people make jokes around how introverts make friends by attaching to an extrovert and they kind of do all the work for them. You know, I think something to keep in mind if you are an introvert is one is don't think that you have to pretend to be an extrovert to make a bunch of friends. That's not true. Be yourself. However, there is research that shows that when introverts behave in a little bit more of an extroverted way, they do report a mood boost. Now, this is short term, but they do report feeling good when they act a little bit more extroverted. So take that tip into the friend making world. It might be helpful to you, but still be authentic to who you are.

Speaker 2:

So some tips I would say if you're trying to like, form new friendships as an introvert is try to do things that are in a space that's more comfortable to you, right? If you don't like parties, why are you going to a big old gathering to make friends? You don't have to. What are spaces that feel a little safer? Have control over that. Let yourself go for a short time period. So set a goal of hey, I'm going to have two deep conversations with two people and then I'm going to let myself go and then let myself go home and then plan something nice to go home to, to relax and to unwind. Right, if you do that, you did great. But you don't have to overextend yourself in order to make and keep friends. You do have to step outside the box, because it's a relationship, but it's okay to to honor your energy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's great, that's great. So I've got on Daniel Byard. Jackson Byard rhymes with tired. Now I'm going to always remember to say that correctly. You know, you've got a podcast out there too, right, the Friend Forward podcast.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I do, we've been having that for maybe, oh my gosh, five years, Gosh, maybe, like starting today. Five years and we just really dig into the complexities of women's friendships. What does the science have to say about the unique ways that women cooperate, communicate and engage in conflict? That's our jam.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love it. You also have a book out right, fighting for Our Friendships the Science and Art of Conflict and Connection Ooh, two big C words right there in women's relationships. And you can find that anywhere. Can you find? Well, I'll put it in the episode.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's anywhere you get books. It's in Barnes and Nobles and Targetcom and all the things fighting for our friendships. And you know it was just our way of trying to explain the mechanics of women's friendships. So that's, the first half of the book is more analysis and then the second half is application. So talking through nine of women's most pressing platonic conflicts, most pressing platonic conflicts, and my goal is just to help somebody enjoy more satisfaction in their female friendships.

Speaker 1:

That's the goal. So awesome, so awesome. I'm going to link that all in the episode notes. So before we leave, I've got two questions for you, and the first one is kind of a personal question. I'm curious if I was to ask your mom, danielle, like when you were 10 and 12, walking the middle school hallways yeah, I know You're like, oh man, what is Amy going to?

Speaker 1:

ask right now no one's ever asked me that I know You're not ready for this one. Would your mom say, man, she was always that girl Like she had a million friends, she kind of had a posse. She was that friendship girl. Yeah, I know, take a deep breath.

Speaker 2:

I'm laughing because I'm actually envisioning my mom laughing at that. I was very social. Yes, I don't think I was an awesome friend. My fifth grade teacher called my mom to tell on me because we formed a Spice Girls club and I told some of the girls they couldn't be in it because there's only five Spice Girls and my mom immediately made me go back to class, disband that group, and she was like everybody can be in the group or in no group at all.

Speaker 2:

You know, so she was always there to guide me, so I've learned a lot of lessons since then. I'd like to think I love that.

Speaker 1:

I love that. Thanks for sharing that. You know, for people listening, when did your passion and purpose really align? I mean, you know, for me I kind of found that a little bit later. You know, and I feel that that's an intersection there that when we find it, that's when the magic happens.

Speaker 2:

I totally, I totally agree with you. It was a journey. You know, I started as a high school teacher and an academic department chair, so I'm working with 12th graders all day. But I noticed the number one thing they wanted to talk about was friendship issues, not even romantic stuff, not their grades, friend stuff. And then I left that world and I got into public relations and I'm working with these sharp, accomplished women and then I learned oh, behind closed doors they also have some friendship stuff. So it's something that I've always been attuned to. But I grew curious and now I've been leveraging my background in education to study what the research has to say about women's connection. So it's always been something that my eyes see that my heart's felt deeply. So I'm so grateful now to be doing this as my work and I totally agree with you that it's really sweet when something's very aligned and hopefully it's something I keep going. But I've learned that the longer you live, the more you are surprised. So who knows what it will be 20 years from now? Who?

Speaker 1:

knows. I love that. I love that. Thank you for sharing. And last question is something I ask everybody, and that is Danielle if you were sitting on the couch and you look over and there's a version of you 20 years younger, what advice would you give that Danielle?

Speaker 2:

Man. That actually like got me emotional for a second. I think if I could talk to myself 20 years ago, I think that I would tell her um, you're enough. You're enough, and not that you don't have room to improve. You should always be growing. But the striving the striving to be funnier, more likable, smarter, to be as pretty as the other girls, to be as sharp, that striving is exhausting and I wish that I could tell her you really are enough, so always be growing, but who you've been designed to be is enough. That would probably be my message.

Speaker 1:

Mic drop girl. I love that. I love that that's goosebumps. Mic drop a little tear. Honestly, that's amazing. Thank you for sharing that, because I think it's a real powerful question and it's something we really have to think about, and so I really appreciate the pause before the answer. That was amazing, and thank you for spending time today. I love seeing you again. You're so good at what you do Well.

Speaker 2:

I appreciate you, thank you for taking the time to facilitate this conversation and I'm hoping that someone who's listening they feel more encouraged to go out there and to have some sense of agency, to be the author of their friendship story and to allow themselves to be vulnerable and take the risk to pursue the kinds of friendships that they've been dreaming of Amazing.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I love that. Thanks for spending time and we'll see you in sunny Florida.

Speaker 2:

We're not that far apart from each other.

Speaker 1:

That's right. Thank you for having me. You bet See you soon.