TLHP 54 Did Luther have a 3rd Use of the Law? With Bob Kolb

Image: Martin Luther by Lucas Cranach the Younger

"Wittenberg Uses of Law and Gospel"
Our guest today Dr. Robert A. Kolb is a professor emeritus of Systematic Theology at Concordia Seminary, St. Louis.  See the emeritus faculty page at Concordia Lutheran Seminary:

Kolb retired in 2009 after 16 years of distinguished service as missions professor of Systematic Theology and Concordia Lutheran Seminary in St. Louis. Before joining the Seminary, he served as director of the Center for Reformation Research, and in various teaching roles in the religion and history departments at Concordia College in St. Paul, Minn.  He has taken much time over many years to teach abroad. He also has been involved in several boards—serving both officially on behalf of the LCMS on commissions, and a leader of 16th century and Reformation societies. 

There is not enough time to list everything he has written, but I included a selection today: He is the author of several books, including The Christian Faith: A Luther Exposition; The Genius of Luther’s Theology: A Wittenberg Way of Thinking for the Contemporary Church with Dr. Charles Arand; Studies of the Interpretation of Holy Scripture in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Century; Lutheran Ecclesiastical Culture, 1550-1675; Bound Choice, Election, and Wittenberg Theological Method from Martin Luther to the Formula of Concord; Sources and Contexts of the Book of Concord, co-edited with James A. Nestingen; Teaching God’s Children His Teaching, a Guide to the Study of Luther’s Catechism; and the list goes on. Perhaps where his name is on most Lutheran bookshelves is in the Book of Concord—he was one of the editors and translators of the most used English edition today. He also has written more than 100 articles and a collection of essays.  One of the most recent, titled Wittenberg Uses of Law and Gospel, was published in the Fall edition of the 2023 Lutheran Quarterly and is the focus of this podcast episode.

Transcript

Ben Phelps: 0:33

Welcome to the Lutheran History podcast where we cover over 500 years of Lutheran history. Our guest today is Dr. Robert Kolb, who is a professor emeritus of Systematic Theology at Concordia Lutheran Seminary in St. Louis. He received his master's degree and master of sacred theology from Concordia. He also earned a Master of Arts and Dr. Philosophy degree from the University of Wisconsin in Madison, has also received several honorary degrees as well. Dr. Kolb retired in 2009, after 16 years of distinguished service as a missions professor of Systematic Theology at Concordia Lutheran seminary. Before joining the seminary, he had served as director of the Center for reformation research, and in various teaching roles in religion and history departments at Concordia College. St. Paul, Minnesota, is taken much time over many years to teach abroad. He's also been involved in several boards, including serving both officially on behalf of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod on commissions, and as a leader of 16th century and reformation societies. There's certainly not enough time to list everything he has written, but I included a selection today. He is the author of several books, including Christian faith, Lutheran exposition, the genius of Lutheran theology, Wittenberg way of thinking for the contemporary church, studies of the interpretation of Holy Scripture in the 16th and 17th century, Lutheran ecclesiastical culture 1550 to 1675 bound choice election and Wittenberg theological method from Martin Luther to the formula of Concord. Sources and contexts of the Book of Concord, Concord, which he co edited with James nest again, and teaching God's children his teaching, a guide to study to the study of Luthers catechism. And the list can go on and on perhaps, where his name is most seen on Lutheran bookshelves today is on the Book of Concord itself. He was one of the directors and translators for this most used English edition today. He's also written more than 100 articles and collections of essays. One of the most recent articles is titled, Wittenberg uses of law and gospel, which was just published in the fall edition of the 2023 Lutheran quarterly, and that is the focus for today's podcast episode. So let's know more details than that, I'd like to welcome you, Dr. Kolb, thank you so much for joining us today in the Lutheran History podcast. Great to be with you. And I should also add, I've had a doctor called in two classes now in my reduced residency program, so I've had the pleasure of learning from him in person. So I'm happy to have this chance to talk some more, because I don't have any more classes with you in my, in my schedule, so this is a good little ketchup for me as well. All right, so are the first thing I want to ask you about today. Because you have done so much work? You know, it seems like your life has been dedicated to a historical theology is just this question, what can you tell us about the value and importance of historical theology?

Dr. Kolb: 3:38

We are, we're all concerned about our memories. As I get older, that seems to be an increasing concern. But our whole personalities are really formed on the basis of what we remember from our childhood from our youth, and from our experience throughout the years. And so I think it's important for the church also, to have a sense of memory of where the Holy Spirit has been working in the past, and what the work of the Holy Spirit has done in sustaining the church and building the church and spreading the church for for now, 2000 years. And so there's no situation in history, I think it's exactly like another situation. But there are there are similarities in the way that the world works and the way the church works. And so we can learn a lot from reflecting on both the grace of God as we see it in in human history in general and in the history of the church in particular. And we can also be inspired to trust that the Holy Spirit's at work even when we don't understand always what he's doing with the church and and get get some tips on on how to address problems. That even though they may not be exactly the same have parallels in the history of the church.

Ben Phelps: 5:06

But thank you for that, that insight. Now, specifically on to our topic today, what led you to research and write on the use of law and gospel in Wittenberg?

Dr. Kolb: 5:19

Well, some 50 years ago, when the Missouri Synod was really being torn by controversy, one of the issues was the third use of a law. And although I've had a very close friends, who have reacted to pi artistic influences, that really do turn some Lutheran Xenon on an evaluation of their own performance, when they should be looking to the cross and the empty tomb. So I'm sympathetic with those who said, there are really only two uses. And we learned what we should be doing from the accusing force of the law and the curbing force of the law. But then that controversy really hasn't gone away, within our own circles and in broader Lutheran and Protestant circles, I would say. And so I've always had that question sort of on my mind, and then an invitation came to speak to a pastoral conference on the uses of the law. And so I thought I would use that as the occasion to take another look at at exactly what the 16th century texts have to say. And, frankly, I was surprised when I discovered that I posed the question, how many uses of the law did Luther really have? And found? The answer is, actually none. He doesn't use the term. That's not literally true, I think I found two instances. And there probably are a few more. But the concept of use of the law was, was present in in some medieval theologians, but it hadn't become a doctrinal category that Luther was used to working with. And so that brought me kind of back to ground zero. And I had to start thinking about questions like, Well, what did Luther do with the law, then?

Ben Phelps: 7:19

Yeah, could you please go into them? How did Luther use the law and take as much time plays as you like, because this is kind of the heart of the, you know, the topic today, okay.

Dr. Kolb: 7:33

I had always taught that Luther had explicitly in small called articles of 1537, he had two uses of the law, the societal use, or the political use, which has a positive effect on people, because it it brings order to society, it makes us behave that operates with, with a system of rewards and punishments, and that, that makes society pleasant. Luther also says in the small code articles, that what actually happens is sometimes the this first use of the law, will, will arouse resistance, what I like to call the terrible twos of the Christian life, where people hear God's law and say, I'm going to assert my own identity and and, and not follow the law do the opposite, perhaps. And another negative effect is that what is given to us for ordering our lives on this earth is sometimes taken to heaven and presented to God as a reason why he should like us. And so that that tendency for the law, also to make us works righteous was one of the things that Luther noted as as, as a part of the work that the first use of the law does. And then the second use the theological use, is that which which needles us as sinners, Philip Millington said, the law is always accusing us. It's always pointing out that we have failed to be the people that God created us to be in Eden. And so, so those two uses, Luther specifically talks about but he doesn't call them uses. He talks about their function, and about their power. And that got me to thinking what's the difference? And so when I was translating the formula of Concord for the 2000 translation of the Book of Concord, the traditional title For Article Six had been on the third use of the law that was maligned 10s language. And that's that's the issue that needed to be addressed because controversies in the 50s, and 60s and 70s. But the previous translator of the tapper tradition, in 1959, it was published, Arthur Carl pipcorn, who incidentally, also shared this office or had this office when I was a student, but Dr. pipcorn, had translated the, the third function of the law. Well, I wanted to look brilliant. And so I thought, well, I'll find my own word and thought about the third impact of the law, although I really liked function and was about ready to go with that. But if you open the translation, you'll find it says, third use of the law, why did I go back to the third use of the law, because that's what the German says, and that good translation tries to follow up with what the original text says. And as I was thinking about that, in the light of this small called articles, a talk about function and power, it occurred to me that you and I may use the law in its third use to instruct its instructional use, we may just want to inform our other people, other Christians, what a god pleasing life looks like. My example is that you're giving the best instruction ever given in your community on on the wonderful gift of sexuality and how God wants us to use this gift properly, to a confirmation class. And, and it's just such a positive presentation. And one of the one of the pupils, students runs from the room crying and, and obviously, struck by what you thought was good instruction, but it has turned into either accusation, or pointing out that that person has been abused, and, and parent or, or relative or someone has, has broken God's law. And then I realized that the function in my mind, when the law is given to me, in whatever use is going to make an impact on the way I live, it may cause me to run away, it may cause me to, as Luther says, in the small code articles rebelled against God more strongly. Or it may have the impact of making me more works righteous. And so the the brunt of of the article that you mentioned, is my trying to work out this distinction of our use as witnesses to God's law, from its function in the minds of our hearers. And then the impact it makes on on their lives.

Ben Phelps: 13:11

Right, so you gotta define divided, basically, and how is it? What's what's the goal of the word itself versus how it's received? Is that Yeah, you're getting it.

Dr. Kolb: 13:22

Yeah. And we're not always sensitive enough to listen to how it's functioning and what and noticing what the impacts are. Yeah.

Ben Phelps: 13:32

Now, go go go off this pastoral tangent, that's always hard when you're preaching to a room have more than one person in it, right? Yes. You can't even well, even one person's hard enough. How is this going to be received? Right is, is the issue. Right? And that's, you know, that's where a lot of this conversation goes into. But I'm curious though, can you just share some of the details of like, how did Luther speak? How did he talk about any of those things? You know, it's the intention of the law. What did get why does God have the law? Is that a natural thing? Or is it just kind of an accidental thing, or you know, all that, all that stuff? I'd be very interested in hearing more.

Dr. Kolb: 14:10

Well, Luther believed very much that God had had, as creator had designed human life in a specific way. And so that that design is reflected in the law. And so the hymn that we sing by Mateus loi, a 19th century Lutheran theologian, the law of God is always good, reflects exactly what Luther thought. It's our sinful reaction to it, that it is bad that earns us the accusation and condemnation of the law. So the law was not given as a means of salvation. Adam and Eve didn't have to serve a period of probation in Eden before, before they got the title human. They were created as gods to Children, human creatures, as God wanted us to be. But the law then came in, as sin made it necessary to have an explicit guide for what Adam and Eve just understood as the way we are. And so the law does describe the way we should be the way God designed the good human life. And in that regard, when it functions as a guide, yet, it moves us toward living a good life, on the basis of our trusting in God. The problem is, of course, that we have turned away from our God. And don't, we don't want to let his word be the point of orientation, Luther thought that the original sin and Eden was doubt of the Word of God, defiance of our Creator. And Luther thought that that original sin greets us every day, when we wake and are not fearing, loving, and trusting in God above all things. And so Luther did try to instruct the people. And he instructed them negatively by saying, Don't do this. But he also instructed them positively saying this is this is the will of the Lord for your lives, that you care for one another, that you respect authority, that you live responsibly with your neighbors and the like. But Luther also saw that the stronger your faith is, the more you're going to want to trust God that you're you're his righteous child and and obey Him. And as you turn to the law for instruction in how to live the good life that he designed for us, you're gonna recognize that that law is still accusing you. It's still crushing you. Because in the past, you haven't, and in the present here, not sure you really want to serve Him in in in complete and full obedience.

Ben Phelps: 17:11

Yeah, and I had, you know, I've had this conversation with with people in the lay people who had seemed to have the impression that well, really the only law really only commandment and Eden was the fruit law. Don't Don't eat this fruit. Don't Don't touch that. And I think I think that that maybe comes comes into play here. When Luther talks about the law, as you laid it out. It is that language of returning or recreating or even restoring right, and I think you've made it pretty clear that to Luther, he was saying, this is just showing you what, in a way your identity we I think we very often think of our identity in terms of the gospel, which is obviously necessary. But in a way, he's saying it comes full circle, he that law also shows you the goal of what God created you to be. Yeah, I

Dr. Kolb: 18:08

think the Germans didn't have a word for identity, exactly. As it's not the exact equivalent of our concept of identity today. Excuse me, but but I think the word righteousness comes fairly close. If a person is righteous, we are what we're supposed to be what God designed us to be, what God's righteousness is, his being, what he really is, and who he really is. And so Luther talked about twofold identity or a two fold righteousness, or two kinds of righteousness is the way that Luthers works translates it. And the two kinds of righteousness or he uses various terms, but But basically, we can use the terms active and passive. And our core identity sort of our DNA, the, the identity we receive from our parents that can't be changed, is our passive righteousness. And that comes to us when God forgives our sins, and promises to be our God and promises that we will be His children in baptism or whatever form of the word of the Gospel we may encounter. So that core identity does come from the gospel, but that core identity means that that's not one half of our life and active righteousness. The other half. It's a two fold righteousness. It's a united person that we are. And so because we trust in God, we we want to act like his children. And so we have all kinds of secondary identities. Luthor worked with the medieval social theory that our lives are our society is divided into people in the household which included family life and economic life, and then societal or political life, and religious life, the congregation. And so Luther saw these, these doesn't use the term secondary identities, but he talks about them in such a way, when he describes our callings to, to be parents and spouses and to be shoemakers and, and physicians and to be citizens or rulers, and to be leaders in the church lay people witnessing and worshiping. So So Luther does have a rather full sense of that, our righteousness or our identity, and to really can't be separated. Truly God pleasing works flow from faith. But faith simply wants to accept what what God gives as as a free gift of new life, and then live that new life. So you're right, that they're just inseparable for Luther.

Ben Phelps: 21:26

Yeah, from my limited exposure and study, it seems to be really hard to properly understand Luther, if there's, you don't understand vocation to some degree.

Dr. Kolb: 21:36

That's true. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Phelps: 21:38

So going a little out of order of what I previously planned to talk about. I think this ties into though the section where you go into his use of the word shuold. Get, can you define that term? And explain where does it pop up? What does it mean, because I think I think that really gets into what he's talking about with law and vocation. I've

Dr. Kolb: 22:00

actually used the word for many, many years. Now, when I've read and spoken German. But it's only recently occurred to me how, how deeply significant, the, we might say two sides of the word from from the standpoint of an English speaker, the word sholde is it means guilt. But it also means obligation. So Luther can even talk about God's showed over and against his human creatures, because God has promised and when someone promises, he has an obligation to deliver on the promise. And, and Luther picks up on this, so that he uses the term as it was used by many, that it was the common usage of the time, he picks up on this sense of obligation to say that when when we have not fulfilled our obligations, there is this burden of guilt. And so the obligation and guilt are two sides of the same coin. The obligation is there simply because of who we are. And the guilt is there, when we don't live up to being the person that God created us to be. And so that the concept of guilty is very important because it it is what really separates us from God. I was a little surprised, as I reflected on Luther sermons. I've done a much more work on Luther sermons in the last 10 years than I had earlier. In his sermons, he, he talks some about guilt, but not a whole lot. He talks much more, as he's presenting the law of God about fear. Now, one of the things we're afraid of is the wrath of God. And why is God angry with us because of our guilt. So indirectly, he's talking about that. But when he's addressing our emotional state, he's, he's dealing with guilt, as fear. And so in North America today, I think we tend to think we're not all that guilty, where we live a pretty outwardly good life, at least. And so we don't really have a big problem with guilt. But Luthers sense of the obligations we have goes much deeper than just a superficial look at our outward behavior, it goes to the very depths of our, our intentions, our thinking, our way of looking at the world. And, and so what he's talking about is, whatever makes you uneasy, whatever it takes your peace of mind away. Whatever it is that that actually separates you from God. You Is the problem that we're discussing this morning. And the problem we're discussing this morning can be solved only by going to the cross of Christ, only by feeling the breeze that that blows from heaven through the, through the empty tomb into our lives, and gives us the resurrected life that Christ one for us. And so what I've just said shows how inter row woven, a sense of align gospel is for Luther, with all human emotions, fear, love, trust, fear, in the sense of honor and respect and fear and the sense of being being frightened. So, so Luther really is viewing us as, as whole people, sinners and saints at the same time.

Ben Phelps: 25:53

Yeah, you know, there may be, in some cases, a tendency when we talk about making a distinction between law and gospel. And this is something I'd fallen into, I think, to, even as a student, of trying to separate them, to the degree that they're, they're sitting, like two at different ends of the table. And that's not really how it works, especially enough not for Luther, you can't you don't just dissect it and, and divide it to different parts and, and leave them not touch each other.

Dr. Kolb: 26:24

Right? Because they really do. They do work together. The law tells us what the problem is the gospel gives us the solution. And then in the solution. We, as we live out that solution of being God's people, again, we're still we're still bothered by sinful ignorance and sinful wills. And so we need that instruction, that they will turn to accusation. But also we need to be told, especially in our kind of society, where there is where there are an absence of moral guidance in the public square, we really need that instruction very badly.

Ben Phelps: 27:12

I think you had mentioned it in our Luthers justification class, it was a good illustration think we're not living in that Leave It to Beaver world anymore, right? Yes. Where you can just have the public consciousness or taboos are whatever kind of serve that that guide or instruction or whatever, you know, use you want to label you want to put on it. No one else is doing that. And maybe no one else was really meant to be doing that. But we got used to it that way. Well, I think

Dr. Kolb: 27:41

an orderly society is in the interests of everyone. And I think we don't really fully realize what we're doing to ourselves by not by not enforcing some some standards for decent societal behavior. I mean, the threats that you hear from politicians against one another are just just unthinkable in the Leave It to Beaver Dwight D. Eisenhower is precedent. Your own which I grew up

Ben Phelps: 28:19

in? Yeah, I'm trying to think if I'm, yeah, I want to move MUFON past this, oh, I guess maybe you want to ask, you know, just some of our listeners aren't there. They're armchair theologians, or they're, you know, casually interested in history. But I think where you can disconnect with everyone, maybe back to the word word shuold. As a guilt or a debt or obligation, where we'll pretty much every Lutheran have encountered this word in the Catechism. And where does that pop up? Is Luther uses it? Well,

Dr. Kolb: 28:55

the one of the most interesting uses is in the first article, where we are surely we are, we are obligated, simply by our nature, he created us to thank and praise to serve and obey Him. And so that phrase shows the positive use of that this is the intention, this is the design for our humanity. And then in the second article, the those who haven't fulfilled their obligation and who are surely him that a guilty sense, or have announced to them that Christ died for their sin, He shed His blood, not with a golden silver kind of commercial payment, but the payment of the soldier on the battlefield who, who satisfied the judgment of God's law, that every sinner must die, according to Romans 623. And so you really move from this positive sense of obligation to, to the atoning work of Christ. And then in the third article of the Creed, you develop the sense of the Holy Spirit's action to bring us the forgiveness of sins that that ends up in life everlasting.

Ben Phelps: 30:24

Yeah, and maybe I'm Miss adding it in, where does it belong? But in the second article, too, you know, he's redeemed me. All that so now I ought to, to serve and obey him. Yes. Yeah. It's kind of like a feudal, a feudal sense, right. And I think, you know, Luther was much closer to the concept of the idea of a talk without atonement, but redemption. I was a slave to this, but now I, I, he owns me, I belong to him. There's just kind of a this is just the way it is. It's natural, unnatural obligation. And I think that's hard to get across to most people in America that you have a natural obligation don't have a right to be free from something, but you're naturally bound or tied to something.

Dr. Kolb: 31:10

Yeah. Which is, is true freedom. But I think that's something we miss also in the the translation of the second article, he has purchased in one me, but the word there Vauban that we translate, purchased, means purchased, but it has a much fuller sense in simply take possession. And he he takes possession of us, so that I may be his own and live under him and his kingdom, and serve Him and everlasting righteousness, innocence and blessedness. So that all does tie together beautifully in that way.

Ben Phelps: 31:52

All right. Well, let's get back to the overarching question. But I guess the subtitle for this could be did Luther have a third use of the law, which is kind of the itching question, right? People want it? And you said already? Well, he doesn't really use the word use. Yeah. Anything else that you want to say about how for Luther, what the law is? And what it does before we get into Langston and others? Yeah?

Dr. Kolb: 32:18

Well, I think we could say that A rose by any other name is still a rose. And the law by any other name is still a law. The Gospel talks about what God does for us, and the law talks about what he expects us to do, as human creatures. And so I think what Luther would say is, as Christians when we're sharing God's law with other people, whether it be parents with their children, or neighbors in conversation, or pastors from the pulpit, we are, we're talking about human action, and what God expects us to be doing. And we're not talking about the Holy Spirit's empowering us yet, we're simply talking about my reaction to what I have done or what I plan to do. And in that, then we see this obligation of God. And we will react to it the function that it that it performs in us and arouses some impact or another, that that function is simply to describe what God expects, and help us compare our own lives to it. And in some cases, we will say, that clarifies what I'm supposed to do, I'm so thankful. In other instances, we will have to admit that we failed in our obligation as God's creatures and we will recognize our guilt. Or we will recognize that, maybe to our shame, maybe simply in a terrifying way, the abuse of other people, the disobedience of other people against God's commands, have have cheapened and shaped and damaged our sense of the fullness of life God can give. And in the midst of that kind of abuse or that kind of victimization, we also flee to the gospel, to have our worth reaffirmed by the love of God and Jesus Christ. And so, the light those who speak the law, need to be somewhat clear on what they intend to do that will just help us present the law more clearly. But we also have to recognize that human life is bigger than just our intentions and that other people may hear it. Do a different thing than we intended to the to their unconsciousness. And then what it does to their consciousness will determine how they act in in varying ways. And so I think Luther would say that there are you use, I think Luther would say, without numbering them, you use the law to get the kids in line, you use the law to help the kids repent, you use the law, to help the kids understand what human life is really all about. And in all those cases, you can separate the way you intend to use the law, but what you intended to do, but the law is going to do its own thing, the Holy Spirit is going to use the law. And not always in line with with preachers intention. And so, so he didn't tell the people today I'm going to talk about the third use of the law. He just told them, the way they were behaving in the marketplace was was not Christian. And they should repent, and presumed that when they repented, they would act properly and in the marketplace, or he told them specifically what they should be doing with God's material gifts for them, and knew that some of them were going to go home feeling feeling guilty, while others were going to say, Oh, that's a really good idea I can I can spend my money or use my shoemaking ability in that way. And so I think Luther simply uses the long leaves leaves to the Holy Spirit, the way it's going to function and its impact on people.

Ben Phelps: 36:43

Yeah, so I guess that brings a follow up question, since he is very, I mean, Luther is very aware and self conscious of how guilt and burden out of conscience is, you know, that's his own personal. That's how he gets here, right? Through the monastic system and all that, did he do anything then, knowing I'm preaching and may be received differently? Do they do anything to I don't use too basic of a word, but to fix it or to guard human consciences in case he maybe had a certain intention, or he thought this was very clear how I even framed it, and yet it might possibly go the other way. I,

Dr. Kolb: 37:28

I would say that as I've read his sermons, particularly, but also his lectures to his students, he didn't know why he was using it, how he was using it, the point he wanted to make in this particular instance. But I think he also realized that it was going to hit different people in different ways. And so he's, he's always returning to the Gospel. And some of his sermons are heavily law and little gospel summer, or heavily gospel with not very much instruction or a call to repentance. But he's always got over a period of time, when he's preaching, say, a weekly series on John or Matthew, or sometimes, he me, he didn't always preach every Sunday, because there were other people to preach at the town Church in Wittenberg. But he, he's, he's aware that the Holy Spirit is going to be using the law in different ways. And so he's he's doing what he thinks he's got to do at this point.

Ben Phelps: 38:38

Thank you for that clarification. So we'll get into now, if Luther was not using the word use, yet how come Lutherans are so used to using the word use? Where you know, and this is why you title your article, event and bear hug or Wittenberg theology? Or does it pop up? And how is out of the people come up with the term use? How do they mean it to be employed?

Dr. Kolb: 39:04

Well, one of the first real theological crises within the Lutheran movement or the Wittenberg circle of friends and reformers, was the challenge of one of the brightest and best of Luther students, panic, Johanna curricula in the late 1520s, mid fit mid to late 1520s. And then into the 1530s. And a Greek Allah got the message. The use of the law in the Middle Ages was bad, and he came up with a solution. Christians don't need to hear the law anymore. Now, he didn't mean by that they can do anything they want. He had a very strong sense of, of new obedience, but he called it the gospel. In other words, key he could lead. His views lead to confusion about the distinction of line gospel, and lead If you saw that as the heart of the message of God, for His people, and, and the confusion of law and gospel was precisely what had had driven him to despair, and so he and Philip Melancon reacted pretty strongly and Millington in 1528. And his visitation article said, we have to call people to repentance, we have to do that we have to tell them what, what is right and what is wrong. Because so much of the, of the instruction on the Christian life in the Middle Ages had focused on doing the right religious things going on pilgrimages, giving alms and so forth. Instead of instead of on being a good parent and spouse, being a good Shoemaker, or physician, whatever, and and so a Greek Allah, I think he probably wasn't as smart as as Lutheran Millington thought he was, and probably wasn't ill willed, although some personal rivalries may have played into the controversy. But how are we going to make it clear that the law needs to be taught preached? And how are we going to make it clear that that it instructs, as well as calls to repentance and brings order to society. And so in the mid 1530s, in reaction to a Greco was challenged to the way he and Luther understood the distinction of law and gospel Vilenkin taught that there are these three uses, and that all three of the uses still have their place, in bringing the Word of God to a Christian congregation, because we are in this battle between sin and righteousness that Paul describes in Romans seven, and that Luther describes with his phrase, righteous and sinful at the same time. And so Millington was was the pedagogue, he was the one who, who was organizing biblical materials to teach the people and, and so on the length and said, well, Luther and I are still trying to make people in Wittenberg behave. And so we're using this political or societal use of the law, and we are certainly calling them to repentance, and Millington was the one who said the law always accuses and, and then in addition, we are showing those who want to obey God, how to obey God, what the will of God is for our lives. But Millington, to I think had this sense that the law is the law. And, and different ways we use it, do not determine how the Holy Spirit's going to make it function in in the ears and minds of our hearers. So, Luther Millington are often played off against each other, but I don't think in their actual presentation of law or law and gospel, there's much difference at all. And they never noticed they never got into any public disputes about it. And so I think they were quite in harmony on this point.

Ben Phelps: 43:37

I suppose you would think that working and living with each other if they had totally different meanings, or definitions that would have come up. Okay. Well, if that's the case, why have some in the past and down to the state sought to really distance Luther from Langston on this issue?

Dr. Kolb: 43:57

I think it's because we have had to deal in North America with this strong pious tradition, that that sometimes not always, by any means, but sometimes caused Christians to, to look to their own works in their own new obedience to measure how sure they could be of their salvation. And so the concern that instead of directing us to the cross of Christ, when we ask who are we, the third use of the law had served to direct us toward evaluating our relationship with God on the basis of our works. But also a factor was that in in Europe, the towering figure in Protestant Christianity in the 1920s already 30s 40s 50s into the 60s, was a reformed theologian, Karl Barth to talk Not at Basel. And he, as a Calvinist, emphasize the third use of the law and really said, The Gospel is of course necessary. first use of the larger second use of the law that that's fine. The gospel is there, but but where we really need to focus on our obedience because of the third use of a lot. And Lutherans like Werner ealert said, No. And they looked at the texts and said, Luther didn't talk about a third use of the law, which was literally correct. And, and so they said, We are to talk about the fruits of faith. So Penner Aylor, for instance, wrote a book on the Christian ethos, which describes the Christian life. But he sees that as the fruit of faith, that which which flows from our trusting in God and trusting his absolution, that we really are righteous people, then of course, Luther uses that language too. So, so there's a basis for that argument. But I think the way the argument was pursued, it's not always helpful. And so we need to look to the needs of our people. And today, certainly the society is not giving them good moral instruction, and they need it. But we also need to realize particularly as, as Zales, or as pastor, those giving spiritual care to other Christians, we need to recognize that the law is always going to creep back in and accuse and the more strongly your faith wants to produce the fruits that are appropriate because God has forgiven you and made you a new creature in Christ, the more likely it is that you're going to recognize your own sinfulness. So Paul, struggling Romans seven goes on for all of us, throughout life, and we can only say thanks be to God, for Jesus Christ our Savior.

Ben Phelps: 47:11

Yeah, I guess the point is, you never want to get to the point where you feel comfortable turning your back on on Christ no matter what. Yeah, log, you know, law, gospel, whatever use you know, you were encountered, don't everything. You need it. You can, you don't need the training wheels. You don't need to be holding his hand or whatever. illustration. Right. Yeah, I think that's, I think, hopefully, that's, that's understood. But this is certainly a timeless topic, though. Because, yes, it's, you know, 500 years from now, if this is still around, we're still around here. You know, people can listen to this. And, you know, if they understand our language will understand at least the theological, you know, issue, right. Yeah, absolutely. So going back, though, to those trying to, you know, maybe it's easier to say, Well, my LinkedIn messed up, but Luther had it, right, in a certain degree. That's kind of I've read at least something like that. Is this all, also part of a, an endeavor to make the law a little more palatable? You know, it sounds a little, a little harsh, shall we call it you know, fruits of faith are turned into another kind of gospel, imperative, or whatever? Way, you want to rephrase it?

Dr. Kolb: 48:29

Yeah. That there again, I think whatever we call it, it's still going to do the same thing. It's, it's going to be there as as God's plan for our lives. And we're going to find that we don't live up to it. But we are going to find, especially in a society, that, that doesn't provide us with moral guidance in any meaningful way, we are going to find that we simply need to, to be looking at the law for what the law is designed to do. And it's designed to, to reveal God's design for human life. And we've been find that we're not living up to it, and you need to flee to the cross of Christ. And that, that, that circle of daily repentance, and return to the cross, and the empty tomb is simply part of the biblical way of looking at life.

Ben Phelps: 49:28

Yeah, and I think you tie that in towards the end of your article with the simple use to separate cutter, you know, point it's, it's both. You need it all. You need it all. You know, don't, don't divide and conquer. Even, you know, don't divide law gospel, don't divide justification, sanctification, you have to understand the distinctiveness of them, but don't try to brush one off to the side or divide the law into three parts and just cut one out and I'll put that over here and I'll just, you know, yeah. 10 This is the only one right yeah, yeah. That doesn't work. Yeah. All right. Well, I think we're coming to an end of our time for this morning. And I got her this afternoon, I should say. But I think we've got through most of the things that wanted to talk about. Before my final question or two, anything, anything that I missed it for discussion that you wanted to share on the content of our talk? I

Dr. Kolb: 50:21

think that at the end of the article, I mentioned something that I'm still wanting to explore, because I've just barely begun to explore it. But in one passage, Luther talks about three things that the gospel does. So I think this use of the gospel as a recreative word, though, a word that forgives our sins and restores us to righteousness. And then secondly, we use it to console those who have been restored to righteousness in the midst of all the struggles of this earth. And then thirdly, it's it's the Holy Spirit's means of empowering our Christian life. I think there might be something there to think through use and function and impact. But I haven't read Luther texts. With that in mind sufficiently to to kind of develop the argument that I had in, in this Lutheran quarterly article, at least on on the use of functions that impact civil law.

Ben Phelps: 51:22

Alright, so those are some areas of further study and, and discussion for the future.

Dr. Kolb: 51:28

Hey, I'm only 82 years old. Yeah, I haven't had all that much time to learn. Yeah.

Ben Phelps: 51:35

But that being said, Are there any other topics or subjects within the broader realm of Lutheran history that you have been working on? That you'd care to share today?

Dr. Kolb: 51:46

I, just this week, I'm writing an article for a collected volume of collected essays on the relationship of the Creed's and Scripture. And I'm trying to find out where the term ecumenical creeds comes from. And I think it's a term that the Lutherans invented probably in that sure 1530s 40s 50s. I know, because sailmaker was actually lecturing on the ecumenical creeds by the 1560s, or 70s. So somewhere in there, Lutherans in the search for a kind of secondary authority, and Norman Norman Mata, as the theologians call it determined that the apostles, the Nicene, and the Athanasian Creed would, would be those kinds of public standards, along with the rest of the Lutheran confessions by the time we get to your 1600 or 15. A. So that's one of that the little detective ventures that I'm involved in as I visit our library this week.

Ben Phelps: 52:57

All right. Very good. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Kolb for joining us today to talk about this timeless topic of timely, timeless topic I should say of Lutheran history and the Christian faith.

Dr. Kolb: 53:09

Thank you, Ben. It was it was great fun.