The God With Us Podcast

What to do with our FEAR amid COVID-19 (S1:E7)

March 16, 2020 Cyd and Geoff Holsclaw
The God With Us Podcast
What to do with our FEAR amid COVID-19 (S1:E7)
The God With Us Podcast
What to do with our FEAR amid COVID-19 (S1:E7)
Mar 16, 2020
Cyd and Geoff Holsclaw

Is it OK to be afraid of the coronavirus?
Is there "good" fear and "bad" fear?
Why does the Bible teach us not to fear?
Are we supposed to just deny our emotions?
Isn't that unhealthy?

We need a better way to talk about FEAR, otherwise we will misunderstand the FAITH God is calling us into.

In this new episode Cyd and Geoff talk about what we can learn about fear from the story of Jesus calming the storm and calling the disciples into deeper faith.

They talk about two kinds of fear (bottom-up that is based in immediate survival and top-down that we have time to think about).  The first one is often called "good" fear (the fear God gave us to survive).  The second is "bad" fear (the fear that leads us away from faith). 

The end reminding us that "even though we walk through the valley of death, we will fear no evil, because God is with us" (Ps. 23).

Joseph LeDoux, "Feelings: What Are They & How Does the Brain Make Them?"
oseph LeDoux, "Rethinking the Emotional Brain" (advanced).

And please CHECH OUT our new book, Does God Really Like Me? Discovering the God Who Wants to Be With Us.

"In a world dominated by feelings of deficiency and distress, we badly need to hear the message of this book." ~ James Bryan Smith, author of The Good and Beautiful God

Please join the God With Us Podcast Community(on Slack), where you'll get updates, resources, and be able to continue the conversation, and even help us plan future episodes.

Show Notes Transcript

Is it OK to be afraid of the coronavirus?
Is there "good" fear and "bad" fear?
Why does the Bible teach us not to fear?
Are we supposed to just deny our emotions?
Isn't that unhealthy?

We need a better way to talk about FEAR, otherwise we will misunderstand the FAITH God is calling us into.

In this new episode Cyd and Geoff talk about what we can learn about fear from the story of Jesus calming the storm and calling the disciples into deeper faith.

They talk about two kinds of fear (bottom-up that is based in immediate survival and top-down that we have time to think about).  The first one is often called "good" fear (the fear God gave us to survive).  The second is "bad" fear (the fear that leads us away from faith). 

The end reminding us that "even though we walk through the valley of death, we will fear no evil, because God is with us" (Ps. 23).

Joseph LeDoux, "Feelings: What Are They & How Does the Brain Make Them?"
oseph LeDoux, "Rethinking the Emotional Brain" (advanced).

And please CHECH OUT our new book, Does God Really Like Me? Discovering the God Who Wants to Be With Us.

"In a world dominated by feelings of deficiency and distress, we badly need to hear the message of this book." ~ James Bryan Smith, author of The Good and Beautiful God

Please join the God With Us Podcast Community(on Slack), where you'll get updates, resources, and be able to continue the conversation, and even help us plan future episodes.

spk_0:   0:04
This is Sid in Jeff Holdsclaw and welcome to the God with us podcast, where we're exploring God's presence and purpose in everyday life. If you have trouble imagining how you can connect with God in your ordinary moments, join the rest of us because we also wonder that. And today we are talking a little bit about the fear response and that some of us are having in relationship to the Corona virus. And I just wanted to talk through sort of what's going on going on in our brains when that happens and what's going on with our life of face. And how can we meet with God and experience his presence and joining his purpose in those kinds of moments?

spk_1:   0:43
Yeah, we're all on edge, Most likely many of us, Um, where anxious. Maybe we're not anxious, but maybe there's just a lot of new things going on. Um,

spk_0:   0:53
probably not even consciously anxious.

spk_1:   0:55
Yeah, because I think said you and I are probably not feeling consciously anxious, but we just got in a fight right before we started

spk_0:   1:01
without the intro.

spk_1:   1:02
We tried to start the intro, and then we started it and then I kind of screwed it up. But then we started going right, Right, right, right, right.

spk_0:   1:08
And then it's her thighs. This and you never that No, not always. It was usually this time it wasn't always. It was usually because we tried to learn not to use always and never.

spk_1:   1:19
So now we just use usually use usually and mostly seldom. So, yes, and then, you know, we're also have loved ones, whether it be kids or, um um, a parent's or grandparent's that were kind of worried about what's gonna happen with our retirement accounts. So there's a lot. There's a lot going on, and we kind of wanted to talk about what is, um what? What is going on in our bodies? We want to talk a kind of a little bit about our bodies in the neuroscience of fear. And what does the Bible have to say about fear? Um, and just kind of like throw it out there right at the beginning is sometimes I feel like there's been a CE renaissance of emotions of the last 15 20 years in the church, but also in culture about how you know, like we have human beings, have kind of forgotten after the Enlightenment. Ah, that were also emotional beings and that we kind of locked ourselves into the rationality of the left brain. And I were re exploring the right brain and all these types of things. And so there's this renaissance of emotions, but I'm kind of coming to the place that just because we talk more about emotions doesn't necessarily mean that we're better equipped at that, handling our emotions,

spk_0:   2:28
right? Right? And actually, in some ways I think we've actually allowed our emotions to take a place that is maybe even higher and bigger than maybe is even appropriate at times because it's a newer thing to be like a Actually, I'm an emotional being. I'm not just ahead, which is totally true. But then we often don't do that extra work of I'm noticing and experiencing my emotions, and I'm learning to integrate them into my thinking. I think sometimes we stay in that place of Hey, I'm noticing my emotions and that and then that's aspires. We go,

spk_1:   3:01
yeah, we feel like it's a mark of maturity to be like I'm I'm noticing my emotions and I'm expressing to me you so That must mean I'm more mature than the people who don't notice their emotions. I don't express them, and certainly that's movement. But I'm not sure that that's the maturity that Christ is calling us into. And so we kind of want to talk about how do we acknowledge emotions, even like fear, but not

spk_0:   3:20
likely fear? Because that's kind of what we're talking

spk_1:   3:22
about but not be controlled by them. So But first I want to talk about love. So many of us are familiar with the idea that love is not an emotion. People say, Well, love is a verb. Love is a decision that you, you know, have to plan for and work toward. And so I think a lot of us have probably done the work in our minds to move love from, like, a sentimental emotion over to a place of some more, some kind of commitment. And so I think the work for today that I wanted to kind of think about is Can we do the same for fear is that can we move fear from something that kind of happens to us over to the place of Well, it's something that actually weaken, maybe control a little bit. Does that sound weird to say we can control our fear?

spk_0:   4:04
I don't think so. But that's because you and I have conversations about this fairly often. Um, I think something that I'm hearing a lot of lately, and we've been doing Ah, Siri's in our small groups at our church based on love Over Fear, the book that Dan White Jr wrote, And I think what a common thing that is coming up is people talking about good fear and bad fear and differentiating between when it's fear, a good thing and when it's fear a bad thing. And you and I have had a couple conversations about that. Do you wantto

spk_1:   4:33
speak so? And I've been I've been trying to really think about that. So people talk about the good fear where you jump away from danger of the good fear.

spk_0:   4:40
Good fear is you don't jump in. You don't jump off a cliff because you're afraid of what will happen to you when you hit the bottom.

spk_1:   4:47
Or if you see a dangerous animal and you jump back or, um, you know if if a car's about to hit you in the crosswalk and you jump back like, isn't that good? Fear. That's the fear that God has given to us to help us survive,

spk_0:   4:59
or even the fear of like you don't jump into it onto a motorcycle and try to drive it when you don't know how, like, just like feared people saying That's a good fear. It protects us.

spk_1:   5:10
Yeah, or the fear where, um, that you have responsibility over other people, and so you want to take the precautions necessary to keep them safe and things like that. So I've kind of come to the place of like, um, like love where I feel like the word love has lost all meeting because it's used for everything from, you know, I love you, too. I love chocolate and, you know, like all these types of things, I think fear is the same way his fears being used for everything. Ah, and so can we kind of can we take back the weird fear for what it really means? And the reason why is because the Bible talks about fear quite a bit. But as far as I can tell, I've outside of and this could be a different podcasts. I'm putting it to the site outside of the fear of God, Um, which were called to do. Um, the Bible always tells us not to fear. And so if the Bible is telling us not to fear, then is there good fear?

spk_0:   6:01
Right. So we need to know what that were, what that fear is about. If the Bible is always saying, Do not fear, do not fear. And we're at the same time saying yes, But fear is good. Then clearly that's confusing,

spk_1:   6:12
right? So is the Bible wrong? Are we wrong or they're a couple different things. Are we using the same were differently. And so I think we're using the same word differently. So I've been doing

spk_0:   6:20
so about that. That's gonna say, Let's talk about that.

spk_1:   6:24
I've been doing a lot of because I've had this question. And so I've been doing a lot of different research. Put these in the show notes, particularly with Joseph LeDoux, Um, who does a lot of research on fear in animals and humans, and things like that is when he's basically come to the decision that he renounced. He wrote a book about 20 years ago called the emotional brain. And then he wrote on a couple of articles later called Rethinking the Emotional Brain. And he kind of renounces of you because he says, We're using fear the wrong way when we're doing emotional research, and when we talk about it as ordinary people, it's it's super confusing. So he says, there's really two things going on, and we call both of them fear one is what we could call a downward up, um, response situations. So what? What I mean by downward, we could talk about like the bottom of our brain, but also the inputs of our senses.

spk_0:   7:15
You've read any Daniel Siegel, any of you who have done that. How What's that? What's the book about? Kids hold the whole brainchild. He talks about the downstairs brain and the upstairs brain.

spk_1:   7:26
Yes, right. So the lower brain, which is connected primarily to your nervous system in your body, reacts almost without thinking to different situations. So if you touch a hot pan. So we were cleaning up a couple weeks ago, and I just made breakfast in one of these pants, but I didn't know that Iron Pan so didn't know that I made breakfast in that. So she's cleaning up. She grabbed the thing and it was still hot. Cast iron pans stay. So but her moving her hand back hits the lower brain stem and then sends the response back to her hand

spk_0:   7:57
even before you can think about it.

spk_1:   7:59
Right. So you want no thinking involved? So you've had those experiences will remove your hands. Um, but that's not a fear response. That's just an automatic reaction where you just kind of responds to a dangerous situation. And so our bodies are made to be constantly surveying God made our bodies to constantly be serving the environment for threats, for possibilities, for opportunities, for food, for dangers of these types of things. And so when you see a zooming car coming at you and you're in a crosswalk, um, all these, uh, sensory inputs go up to your brain stone. But then also kind of a little higher up into your amygdala, and it process that information and it makes a decision about what should be done. Ah, and then send signals back to your body to get out of the way on. Then those signals actually do continue traveling up to your brain into your neocortex and higher up. And that's when you start thinking about your like, ah ah, but really, your body's already taken you out of the crosswalk before you start thinking like I could have died,

spk_0:   8:55
right? And so this is the thing that we always talked about with the fighter flight, right? There's like the fight flight or freeze sometimes. And so those air those responses that you're not even thinking about your body's just automatically kicking into survival mode.

spk_1:   9:08
Right? And so. But oftentimes, after the fact, when you jumped out of the street, you say, Well, I jumped back because I was afraid of getting hit is what we say, but that's not technically true. You jumped back because your body knew to jump back, but you weren't afraid like you didn't process that you didn't have an emotion of fear. You actually have fear after the fact. You're like I could have died, right? So you're

spk_0:   9:29
That's when you become afraid,

spk_1:   9:30
right? So sometimes kids will burst out crying after the fact when you've saved them from a dangerous moment because they then that's when all the emotions get stirred. after they've been thinking about it. So then there's So that's the bottom up. Kind of, um what, uh, Landau's he says, our survival circuits. He says our body has survival circuits that kind of go off automatically. But then fear is kind of this top down. We're we're

spk_0:   9:55
so hold on before you go into that. So then if I'm if I'm understanding you right, And for people who are listening So then the idea of what we've just talked about about that bottom up kind of fear is the kind of fear that people might say is good fear because it keeps us alive. So when we hear talking about yeah, but fear is good, what we're actually talking about is thes survival circuits that keep us alive. That am I hearing you

spk_1:   10:19
absolutely absolute. So then where does fear come from? Fear usually comes from situations where we have enough time to think about things, and we project into the future dire circumstances. Would we use our imagination coupled with our memories, things that happen to us in the past, and we start thinking of these really horrible situations or things that could happen, and then it actually goes down our nervous system and its start. That's where we get like when we get tight stomachs or tight throat and it actually create our ideas about the future actually have impact on our body. This is where stress, hormones and anxiety and all these types of things get stirred up in us. So that's more of the downward process. We have this up survival circuit response that gets called fear. And then we have this downward, um, thoughts about the future, about bad things that could happen to us. And those are called fear also. And so this is where the confusion between good and bad,

spk_0:   11:07
because those are really different things, because one of them actually keeps us alive and is actually hard wired into our brains, which doesn't we don't actually think about it. The other one is very different because that's the one that causes anxiety, and it causes worry. And it causes doubt, and it causes, like projecting and imagining horrible things happening in the future. They're very different things.

spk_1:   11:31
So let's talk about Jesus calming the storm as kind of this picture as a way of thinking about these two different kinds of fear. Is there good fear or bad fear? Um, and how? Jesus, um, kind of calls us in the faith over fear. So this is from Luke, Chapter eight, verse 20 to the story of Jesus coming storm. And we talked about this just briefly. Um, you know, because churches air live streaming their service is and things. And so we talked about this passage is briefly advent.

spk_0:   11:58
And apparently we weren't the only church talking about this passage because someone really someone on our on our small group leader called last night said that he had watched a couple of different service is and that several had chosen this text

spk_1:   12:09
ago. Spirits at work. So So let me just read the passage. One day, Jesus got into a boat with his disciples and he said to them, Let us go across the other side of the lake. So they put out. And while they were sailing, he fell asleep. So Jesus fell asleep in a moving vehicle, which some of us can do easily. I could do that. Ah said you can't do that. But usually when you fall asleep somewhere, it's because you feel safe because you are familiar with the circumstances of the situation and fuel.

spk_0:   12:38
Actually, part of the reason I can't sleep in cars is because I have been in two very massive car accidents. And so I don't think I ever feel safe enough to sleep in a car.

spk_1:   12:48
Right, right. And so Ah, but Jesus, he is, He's he's asleep. And what kind of get back to how? Why does he feel safe in this situation in a minute? But he's sleeping. So then they're going cross the Sea of Galilee. Verse 23. Ah, wind storm swept down on the lake and the boat was filling with water and they were in danger. So the boat there's a storm. Big storm. Ah, there. The boat is slowly filling up with water that we have to keep coming over. They can't get it out quick enough. The boat is sinking and they're in danger. And these are all experienced fisherman. So if they're afraid, it's because this is a real situation, so their lives are in danger. Okay, so this So what kind of thrown it to you said, what kind of situation is this is a down up survival experience or Is this up Down?

spk_0:   13:35
Well, I mean, it sort of feels like maybe there's elements of both because they are in actual danger. But it does really feel like a top down kind of fear, because it's this. It's happening over time. It's building. It's getting worse. So it's not like there's this moment where lightning strikes and they leap out of the way, which would feel like a survival circuit. But instead it's this gradual, like the wind is getting stronger. The waves are getting bigger than just water level, where the boat is getting higher. There's a lot of time.

spk_1:   14:06
Things that we know to do aren't working,

spk_0:   14:08
right, right, And the one that we trust is sleeping and doesn't seem to even be noticing that any of this is happening.

spk_1:   14:16
So we'll put this in the category of danger that you can think about

spk_0:   14:21

spk_1:   14:22
O. There's danger you can't think about which is where it just happened so fast and you just react. And maybe the reaction saves you from breaking in armor. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe you still fall off your bike and breaking on right? That's danger. That just happens too fast that you can't think about it. But this is danger that is happening slow enough that you can think about it. Okay, so they're in danger. So what do they do? They take action and they go to someone that they think they can help.

spk_0:   14:46
But this is probably after they've taken action of bailing out the, you know, buckets out.

spk_1:   14:51
So they're taking action. They're taking more acts. So they're they're doing something. They're asking for help. So they go up to the master and they take action on the way, come up and they also express their fear. Master Master, We're dying were perishing some translations to say and then Jesus himself takes action in response to what they do. He woke up and he rebuked the wind in the waves and they ceased and the ocean was calmed. The sea was calm. So Jesus said, the disciples take action and Jesus takes action. The disciples express their fear. But then what does Jesus express? He says After a common see, he turned to them, saying, Where is your

spk_0:   15:30
faith? Isn't that

spk_1:   15:32
confusing? Why's he upset with the disciples? Where is your

spk_0:   15:36
faith? I don't know that he's upset. It all has to do with the tone of voice that you read. What? I'm not sure he's upset. I think he's challenging that.

spk_1:   15:44
Why's he challenging them about faith? Because they wouldn't talk to him. They ran out of their options. They turned to Jesus and they asked for help. Now, isn't that a faithful action to do to ask for help? Is Jesus saying you shouldn't have asked for help?

spk_0:   15:58
I don't think he's saying you should. I don't

spk_1:   16:01
know. That was a rhetorical question. The answer is no.

spk_0:   16:03
He does. That sometimes sort of puts me on the spot. I'm like, What do you want me to say right now? I'm pretty sure that you don't know the answer. The answer is no.

spk_1:   16:09
So ask Well, so

spk_0:   16:12
or the answer is Jesus

spk_1:   16:14
is the answer is always Jesus. So So, yes. Where is your face on that

spk_0:   16:21
campaign? The answer should be Jesus.

spk_1:   16:23
Yes. So the answer can't be Ah, you lacked faith because you asked for help. Uh, so where did they lack faith? Well, I I think they lacked faith when they let the fear overwhelm them. And this is where they cried out. This is a slow moving danger. So this is the I can have enough time to think and to be anxious about my existence. And, ah, that fear kind of ran down them and it was controlling them. And I think Jesus is challenging them. Where's your faith for that fear that you had that slow moving top down fear and all throughout the Bible, um, God calls us not to fear. So he calls Israel lights. You know, when you're going into the land or when an invading army is coming to attack us says do not fear. And most the time, what it's followed with that is what

spk_0:   17:09
I am with you.

spk_1:   17:11
God doesn't promise and say, Well, I'm I'm more powerful than that thing, so I'm gonna take care of it. Although that's true, he doesn't say, Hey, I'm gonna pull you out of this situation, although sometimes that happens. But he always says, I am with you in this. And even in the very famous Psalm 23 like even though I walk through the Valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. David says, Why? Because because you were with me, Where with me And so I think Jesus is challenging the disciples. Not that they had a problem with asking for help, but rather they had for gotten that. God is with them now. Wouldn't said, when you're in danger or when you're afraid of something. When you talk it out with somebody, do you usually feel better? Or if you're in a situations

spk_0:   17:56
on who I talked about with, I mean, honestly, there's some people I talk it out with. You just make me even more afraid and spin me up even higher,

spk_1:   18:03
okay? That's true,

spk_0:   18:04
right? I mean, that is that is true. Sometimes we exacerbate each other's fears by going, Oh, my gosh, you're right. That could be even worse.

spk_1:   18:11
So let's get then on what kind of wrap this up in nowhere when

spk_0:   18:15
I talk it out with you. Oh, you always call me down.

spk_1:   18:19
So Jesus, And then the second answers, Jeff. But this goes to another point, which is the social aspect of fear, right? So we actually learn for for most things, we learn fear from other people and so so back to this idea of a car zooming by in the crosswalk. So just imagine two situations and then we're gonna kind of land this plane with some application. Um,

spk_0:   18:42
I want to hear you say what a non fear response would have looked like for the disciples in the boat. To what?

spk_1:   18:48
I'd like to hear what you think about that. But so imagine Ah, father or a mother, a parents will say. And a child, A small child, maybe, you know, kind of in the walking age early on, you know that age were you always asked. Like hold my hand, We're going across the crosswalk. So you enter in the crosswalk, you're holding your kid's hand and then you see the car zooming by. You grab, you tighten the hand and you pull the child back. You pull yourself back and you're on the curb. The car zooms by. So you had an instinctual response to protect yourself and the child. So the next step is where fear is learned or not learned. The next step is how you process that situation. So all these things kind of happened. Your two bodies, Aaron, this heightened sense of alert because you kind of just had this big kind of event happen. And if you turn to your child and, um, you start expressing your own fear about how they could have died or you could have died. Then what are they going to receive? That car's and crosswalks are dangerous that I somehow let down my my parent, and the next time they approach a situation that's similar to that, they're gonna be primed toe. Have a fear or disappointment response. Now if the parent looks immediately to the child and says, I'm so grateful that we didn't get hurt, I'm so glad that we are safe. Then that primes for gratitude. And so there's a situation. So how we interpret the events, um, oftentimes code. This is kind of how the neuroscience and talk about it kind of codes. The difference kind of responses into us, and so do we. Are we teaching our Children fear when we talk about a situation? Are we teaching them faith? So, um,

spk_0:   20:27
which is really hard to dio for hard have been conditioned to be afraid. I mean, most of us were given that wrist like if that situation happened, most of us, his Children, the response would have been Oh, my gosh, we almost died.

spk_1:   20:40
Yes, Rather, the

spk_0:   20:42
response is not the ones that we've been trained into are not the Oh, wow. I'm so glad that we're okay.

spk_1:   20:48
Well, when when you say it that way, you make it seem silly,

spk_0:   20:51
but I know it's not silly. I'm just saying, like,

spk_1:   20:53
but the two responses air true, it's how it's how you frame it, right? One is fully almost No one is. I almost died, and I'm gonna think more about the fear that this is causing the other one is and what could have happened and what could have happened? The other one is I'm glad I'm alive. Um, I'm glad your life I'm glad we're all

spk_0:   21:10
I'm glad we're together.

spk_1:   21:12
Eso and those two things still named the life and death situation that happened. But it it it creates a different path. Um, and that these different kind of paths that we call ourselves and our Children and other people we know onto over years and years of living, create different responses to these situations. And so I think that's where Jesus, and that's where God is always calling us into is don't let that downward up. Kind of if we still want to call it fear, Uh, situation override, Um, that God is with us Override that God has given us so many good things and make us forget. So you were just on the phone with somebody who says that this whole, um, kind of pandemic situation is making us live?

spk_0:   21:58
Oh, I was just talking to a friend this morning. He was just saying, like all of society is living out of our Omega Della right now, which is the downstairs brain, the idea of, like, we're all living in fighter flight or freeze right now. And it's sort of like there's been this giant parentheses on life, like everything that was important to us before. This is now, like on hold. And there's this parentheses that we're living in the middle of, um, which it's all in an all in a new dren elin kind of response to. It's a survival circuit kind of thing. And so, trying to be mindful about how are we living in what society is viewing as a survival circuit? I mean, there are reasons to be concerned. And there, Arthur, there is danger, right? Just like in the take precautions, right? And so you know, the faithful non fear response probably still wouldn't have looked like just sitting there passively in the boat like It's fine. God is with us. So it's no big deal. Um, there's still a responsibility to actually pick up buckets and try to get the water out and do what's needed with sales, right? So it's not like just a passive nothing. But at the same time, what would it have looked like for the disciples to have entered into that situation, doing the responsible things and doing what was under their control? But not being afraid?

spk_1:   23:14
Well, and I don't know if the disciples could have been different. They hadn't been given the gift of the spirit. They hadn't fully understood who Jesus was. And all those types of things.

spk_0:   23:21
Thio. That's a good answer. Good answer. But what would it look like

spk_1:   23:25
us like we live in the place that Jesus did So The reason I said, Well, how did you sleep in the midst of that, um is because he had already heard and received the information of the father. He had already been filled with the spirit. His life was was hidden in the life of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the eternal trinity. And so he at no point felt mortal danger for his body. So, like, I think Jesus does, you know, he probably did have survival circuit responses. You know, it's a different kind of situations when he kind of, you know, hurt hand, you know? Or he stepped on something that hurt. Or, you know, he saw a poisonous animal, right? So but I don't think those were the bottom up kind of survival circuit. So I believe in Jesus full humanity. He had that. But the top down where Jesus understood that his life was hidden in the life of God and that nothing could destroy him, allowed him to sleep on the boat or allowed him to be sleeping through the storm because he, in an ultimate sense, did not fear for his life. He did not fear the things that we fear. And I think we are called to those same things. And so, you know, we're called to take every thought captive, and sometimes we just think, Oh, that means, like, you know, the sinful things like, don't you know, whatever the sinful things all right, But what if they actually meant? Don't you know, take the thoughts captive? Like, remember the good things that God has given us? Don't dwell on the things that would cause.

spk_0:   24:43
Remember that our lives are hidden with Christ,

spk_1:   24:47
right? And those are the things you don't think about. And so we talk all about, like, the benefits of gratitude. And I think this is another one. If you practice the life of gratitude continually at dinner when you're going to bed,

spk_0:   24:58
especially in this time where there's scarcity, thinking all over the place,

spk_1:   25:02
then when you know a pandemic breaks out or when you jump back from the curb because the car's coming by then gratitude will spontaneously come to you. I'm so glad. Yes, it's practice. I'm so glad that I'm alive or, um, you know, we have enough for right now. How can I help other people

spk_0:   25:18
on things? I'm so glad God is with us in all of this. Yeah,

spk_1:   25:22
indeed. Which is why we call this the God with this podcast. So we could probably talk a lot of more about this. Please. We're

spk_0:   25:29
going to be short, and we're gonna get 25 Right. So sorry about that.

spk_1:   25:33
Whether it's on Facebook or, um, stitcher or other places, please. You know, give us your thoughts, you know? Is there good fear? Is there bad fear? What does all this mean? I'll put some of the resource is that I've been reading through there really dense, but But I like reading. And so I'll put some of those show notes on there, but we would love to kind of hear from you. How have you overcome fear and anxiety? And these, um, these times And, um Then what's been going on?

spk_0:   26:01
Yeah. And how are you practicing gratitude in this time? Um, And how are you? Yeah, just experiencing God's presence with you. And Jeff gave me the land.

spk_1:   26:11
I gave the land the plane. So it No, because I wanted you to know I'm not really good at wrapping up there.

spk_0:   26:16
Just kind of keep and

spk_1:   26:17
you'll really get it. Like making a practical personal. She's a spiritual director. I read the dense articles and she, like, tends to people's souls. So

spk_0:   26:24
Well, I would just say, Let's just take a minute altogether wherever you are. If you're driving right now, you better not close your eyes, but otherwise maybe just close your eyes for a moment and just take a deep breath and just take a moment to pause and to have gratitude that there is no situation where you have been left behind. There is no situation where you have been left to fend for yourself. But just as Jesus was in that boat and his immediate response was to calm the storm, that Jesus is capable of calming the storms both within us and outside of us, and that he has never left us and never will leave us. And so let's just take a moment and just breathe in that gratitude of God's presence and his provisioned for us on Lord, we just thank you. We thank you that we have no need to fear. We have no need to dwell on all of the worst case scenarios and all the things that could happen. Help us instead to dwell on your presence with us to remind ourselves that you are here and that there is invitation and opportunity to join you in your piece. In these days, we pray this in your mercy. Amen.