Whatever business you're in, you need sales and marketing to make it work. I often hear people say 'I hate sales' or 'I hate marketing' and what they often mean is that they hate the amount of work that needs to go into it or they don't like that the 'build it and they will come' strategy is BS. If you don't market you don't get sales and without sales, you don't have a business. That's where people like my guest on this episode come in.
Jamie Martin is an award-winning sales trainer and a careers coach with 10+ years’ successful sales experience working within the corporate sales, marketing, media, and recruitment/headhunting world. As you'll find out in this episode, Jamie is highly passionate about sales strategy and sales training to help businesses improve their revenue and processes.
There's something for everyone to take away from what Jamie shares, whether you're in the corporate word or not. Sales matter and if you want to make it in business, it's always great to learn from experts like Jamie Martin.
Here are links to some of the things Jamie mentioned in the show:
If you'd like to know more about Jamie, you can get in touch with him in one or all of these ways:
Since you're here, why not go and download a copy of my new ebook 'The 5 key beliefs of bulletproof business speakers' available now at Present Influence.
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Welcome to the speaking of influence podcast with virtual business speaker presentation skills and influence Coach John Ball. Remember to like and subscribe. The speaking of influence podcast is uploaded and distributed using Buzzsprout. Buzzsprout makes it really easy to get your podcast started and out to a wide audience with lots of tips and useful tools to help you on your way. If you're interested, check the link in the show notes and start your podcast today. Welcome to the speaking of influence podcast and I'm really happy today to have with me is the first time that I'm actually having a sales trainer as my guest on the show. Not only is a sales trainer, he's an award winning sales trainer, training business to business and doing very well as a coach as a someone who can guide you in being able to prove your sales in business and a number of things as well. He's a professional speaker, he's also a podcaster. Please welcome to the show, Jamie Martin. Well, thank you for the warm introduction, John, delighted to be on your show. And yeah, just to give some value to the audience listening to what we discussed today. Really? Fantastic. Well, I think this is the first time I think I've spoken to a sales trainer as a guest, but I think it's such an important area. And I know, some actually, you know, there was one lady Stephanie Scheller, who I spoke to, and she was very, very interesting as well. So you might be my second sales trainer. Just to ask you then, what is it you do and how did you end up doing it? Yeah, well, hopefully, we're not a dying breed or anything like that. But funny enough to speak it and sell it actually goes you know quite hand in hand really. So I'm sure there'll be some useful correspondence we're going to talk about today to help the listeners. But for myself, personally, I think we're probably my career started was, I was quite academically bass a bit of an introvert in school actually, and that that will come out during the the this episode. But I did a psychology degree for years at the University of Gloucestershire, in the UK. And then I did a fourth year business psychology, postgraduate certificate. And during that time, I really had a passion for the subject, obviously learning individual differences in business psychology, learning about occupational psychology, onboarding, psychometrics. And naturally, during that time, I was always fascinated about building relationships. And I think I was, always had good communication skills apart from I do speak quickly. So maybe you can help me with that, sometimes, but it's just my passion and my energy and, you know, people who get today we, they just, they're all very authentic. So what I did was I started my career in sales, I did two years of telemarketing with a company that actually was a telemarketing agency, various other parts of it, but I was on the Vodafone campaign. So if you can sell mobile phones, you can basically sell anything. It is predominantly the lead generation, and it was very tough. But I did achieve the targets. And I think I had a really good grounding in in lead generation and telemarketing. And for any one setting, that's a really good career starting point to have, then I did about six months with our sort of local media company. So it was, you know, magazines, newspapers, digital online content. And I really enjoyed my time there learning a lot about business, learning a lot about the major industry. And I moved on because I found a career in recruitment. And I think that's really where I excelled in selling. And I was fortunate because I got the job without read specialist recruitment. So one of the UK leading and a global company, recruitment agencies, brilliant, you know, it's a fantastic company had a really good career there. And so six years later, within the company, I started on various codesa in the business, and I was I was very well trained, but you just have to have a really strong growth mindset. Have some grits, be a bit tenacious, dedicated, motivated, you know, to to learn the trade and and achieve your, you know, KPIs or key performance indicators, and anyone in a sales role will know selling is hard recruitment, slightly known as one of the hardest sales roles. So I suppose that that was my background. And during the time, you know, we probably have a goal day to hear all about my career there, but our seven over a couple of achievements. So within just under six years, I was promoted five times. I was an award winner. Within my first year, I worked on the finance desk, the sales desk, I was a record breaker for most revenue in the sales division. In one month, I placed the CFO and sales director for the same business. I did an international recruitment role placement in Germany, which was relevant in the business and in my time there apart from working with like footsie 250 companies and all different sized businesses and levels of personnel. I've made over 60 different placements across 20 different industry sectors and made around about a quarter million pound for the business. And I set up my own sales team and sales branch. And yeah, it was a really, really flirtatious career I gained success, you know, worked my way up within the business, I probably would have saved, you know, until, you know, later on it maybe director level because I know how dedicated and passionate I am. But I decided to move on from the business, which was April 2019. Now, and I had a bit of a career break, I decided, you know, I wanted to focus on you know, what I wanted to do next and focus on other areas of my life. So after a career break, I did a coaching diploma. And I also did an NLP diploma course, at my time at Reed which was great. And a four year recruitment Academy course and management Academy course a very well trained, and overall heard, you know, from my different types of roles had about 10 years business to business selling experience. So what I did, I decided to set up my own business, correct Curry's coaching, and we're just having a bit of a laugh about the name at the beginning of this before we started recording, but there hence the name is because I'm thinking, you know, like, Steven, Kobe with the end in mind, focus on you know, where should you know, what do you want to do in the end and work your way back? What's your goals, I wanted to be able to brands, and correct careers conviction has three arms to where you've got the sales, training and sales strategy, which is what I predominantly focus on, because there is a real big gap in the market, the careers coaching side of it, because I was a bit of management and millennial as well. And I feel, you know, in your career, having a mentor or career coach could really be beneficial. And then the other side would be employee engagement and retention strategies. And the overall aim and vision of my business is to look at employee retention. I was looking at employee turnover for quite a long time at the recruitment world and I decided to how can we retain staff so first of all, developing their their training skills, their sales skills, you know, especially in a sales role to help them perform better and achieve success and hopefully stay longer with the business and other engagement strategies as well. So yeah, that's that leads me up to today in the last year of my business, but a very, you know, fantastic star, a lot of support with networking. As you mentioned, I just recently won the Best SME sales training consultancy in the southwest UK. so delighted with that all the way to work to about 28 different industry sectors, sole traders to corporate businesses, and you know, b2b Anna, you know, better b2c as well, there is a real gap in the market, not just for learning the full sales cycle, which is what I teach show anything from lead generation to conversion. And obviously, everyone loves negotiation and talking about money. But also, I'm a modern sales trainer, because I teach social media marketing, social selling, and that is a real big gap. Right now, especially due to the pandemic, I mostly work with professional services, business services, HR an areas such as this the sector's some of them haven't embraced social media. And we really need to say visible right now. And the other element I do is sales strategy. So not only helping the team before but perform better and increase your gross sales. But looking at how the business leaders in the overall company can focus on the making their sales process and strategy more efficient. So we'll be looking at you know, whether it's their resources, their marketing material, their ICT, their social media and their people and make sure everyone is in the right place and doing the right sort of activity and touchpoints with their potential clients and customers to making sure that overall, you know, the business is profitable. So yeah, that's basically my background and the reasons for doing what I do. And I absolutely enjoy it and love working with new people love building new relationships. Some people listening might wonder why you'd step down from what seems like a very high trajectory career to start your own business. Yeah, so I mean, I had a lot of success in recruitment, and I would always look back and remember the times that I built my character and experience to help me do what I do today. I think, you know, from my background, I was always, you know, finance myself as an entrepreneur, and, you know, being an a corporate business, you know, it didn't I was challenging times as well, you know, but overall, I had a high of loser success. And, you know, we all have those wounds in a sales role. But I think, you know, it was just the right time for me to explore other areas and even focus on other areas of my life. And you know, I worked a lot that was due to my choice, but you know, so I can now you know, spend more time you know, in my personal life and my family and friends and you know, do what I do and you know, being as we talked about start being your own business owner, you wear many different hats and you probably work all the time anyway. I probably work more now but you can also be very flexible so no, yeah, that that's probably why and I think I made the right decision. Now anyway. But sometimes I think you do have to take a bit of a leap of faith and and it's and especially in sales. Don't get me wrong. hasn't been a huge learning curve running your own business. And constantly every day would be, you know, very, we're changing things, we need to be very agile and adaptable, especially now, you know, post the pandemic or during the pandemic. But yeah, that that's why I'm here today. And yet to really, I think I had a very successful career. So I'd like to, and I managed a team, and all I wanted really was, you know, my team and the people I try now to achieve the successes and rewards that I did myself personally. Yeah, for myself, coming from a very customer service oriented background, making the transition to having my own business was very hard. How did you find that? I mean, you have to have more of a professional background, more of a more traditional company background than someone like myself, but how was that transition for you? Were there some parts you found difficult? Did you have to work on your identity in order to be able to do that? Yeah. You know, there's various different, you know, answers to that, I think, looking back at start, I'm glad I may I started when I did, you know, it, I think the figures are probably around, and this changes all the time, but 20% of businesses fail in their first year. And it is a real shame. And don't get me wrong, because cash flow and clients are, you know, absolutely, necessity in a business. And a lot of people spend, you know, a lot of time working on the business, which you should do, because you need to make it professional, I was fortunate I had a few months off as a career break inside really kind of planning what I wanted out of the business before I sort of launched it. And then you know, I suppose that helped, that I was naturally, you know, my my background is sales. So I would go out and I would sell and you know, there's a few elements I still need to work on. Of course, there is but I was going out there I was networking a lot, I was building relationships, I have a mentor, you know, I I'm always doing continued Personal Learning myself. So going on webinars, reading books, listening to podcasts, including your show, john, you know, add, you know, just really, you know, think about current times think about what's going on in the marketplace. So, I would say you do need to form an identity. And you know, there are there are resources out there to help you do that, you know, in our local area, there's plenty of resources, you know, to give some help to, you know, and put you on courses and stuff. But really, I just think you probably should do your due diligence in your research. So the way way to do it is identify where the gaps are in the market. So I was looking in the selling environment, and I identified that, you know, social media and sales strategy would come, compromise, sorry, accommodate working with cell shading, try to pick the right word, that compliment. So this is basically you know, why I incorporate corporated, the full kind of cycle, including those areas as well. And so when I go pitch into new business, and upselling, with my current clients, I can explain to them that there's other elements to my business, but you can't kind of you know, show everything in your shop window at the start. So you some, you know, there will be you know, mixed reviews on this, some people say just focus on a niche, if I was honest, recruitment probably would be my niche because of the background I've had in recruitment. But I really wanted to actually push myself to go and explore other areas. And that was tough, you know, because as I mentioned, I work for 28 different industry sectors. Today, I do like to analyse and work out my metrics, where my needs are coming from what I'm good at, and that's where your personality comes into it. But I think it was good for me to explore other areas because it pushes you out of your comfort. So it may be a slightly longer journey, you know, to where you want to get to. But at the end of the day, I can then demonstrate to you know, different clients and work with my own model. And I can and I can cross over to sectors if I need to So, so really, I think to anyone out there, I would say you know, first of all, definitely do your research. You know, read the material, look at you know the resources available, identify the gaps in the market. And you know, if you are genuinely passionate about something, pick something you're passionate about, I'm sure that's what you've done john as well, then you certainly any hurdles you come across in that time you will overcome them. And it's just for breaking the goals down breaking it down into habits, having a good morning routine, we talked about how our roads Miracle Morning is fantastic. I follow that. And you know, just keep going you know any and I'm sure every business owners has some challenges Richard Branson, for example, you know, fifth fifth riches, I think in the UK, you know, that's changed today. But you know, he had some setbacks early on in his career. So yeah, just got to keep going. You do and I often will say to my coaching clients that your reasons for doing something have to be bigger than your reasons not to. Because if you don't have that, why if you don't if you haven't worked on that then when things do get challenging, which can happen quite fast in a business, then you're not going to have to stick with it because it's I think more Why am I really doing this is that is not really worth the hassle and people tend to drop out or just say it's not worth it and go and do something else go back into the working world or, or try and move on from some of my friends do and move on from one thing to the next to the next without really getting any particular traction. Just Keep now like shiny object syndrome, let's try this business. Let's try that business and not really getting any results with it. And I love so many people are good at starting stuff, but not so many people are actually good at seeing things through. And so it does take a level of drive and commitment to get to where you were. So to achieve results like yours, show that you have a very high level of personal drive, you have your why you work on that, and you keep building on it as well, which is great. It's a great example of what what can be achieved with determination and sticking with it. Yeah, I liked what you said that, John, and if the listeners haven't seen this YouTube video, but Simon Sinek, you know, he really talks about start with the why, or to focus on the why and the sort of neuroscience behind it. And I think you're right, you know, I wasn't in a closed group a little while ago, and they said, you know, you, you work a lot, you're here, there and everywhere, you know, what, what's the reasons for that it didn't actually take me some time to, to naturally think about it. And, and, you know, when I did find it, it was a kind of a lightbulb moment, to be honest. And for me, if I'm going to be able to stand up in sales, train businesses and employees, I need to be able to show that it is possible, I don't want to just say, look, this is what you do, I need to go and do it in my own business so that you can do it whenever you want to do it in your goals in your business. And I think that that was my way, what was your way, John, for your own business? And what you do, it's interesting, I got into coaching over 15 years ago, really, but I didn't probably about 15 years ago that he started working as a coach. But I'd studied for several years before actually opened up to clients, and the why of doing it well, you know, as I was in customer service, and I got introduced to coaching, and I'd never come across it before I had no, I'd always had an interest in psychology and things like that, but haven't really studied it. And didn't really think that Professional Psychology or psychiatry would be something that I wanted to work in for various reasons I'm not going to go into here but but when I got when I found coaching that was so solution focus I've always been a kind of a solution focused guy like looking at solutions. And and I very much like working through otherwise been one of those people who, who others would come to and talk about stuff that was going on in their lives, almost like an agony aunt or uncle. But but not not really big, because there be that thing of Well, I'm not going to tell people what to do. But I would often find myself saying what you can do about that is I think there's come and moan to me about how terrible Your life is, what are you actually going to do about it? And and it was really at that point, I realised that's kind of coaching people. And the more I found out about coaching there, the more it enthralled me really and and realised, yeah, this is definitely something that I want to be involved with. And then as I got deeper into it, like yourself, I studied neuro linguistic programming and a number of other things. And so I have a great many tools and that they keep building over the years to be honest, and that I can use in coaching situations, but I develop more of a passion for presenting and training as well. So whilst I do a lot of professional coaching, the is the training and the presenting side of things that I love the most. And that's ended up tying in with all sorts of things like I have a real thing of I discovered a lot about hidden influence. And not long before I ever read Robert Cialdini, his book on influence and the psychology of persuasion, I discovered some stuff that people are showing were not social engineering or hidden tools of influence and marketing, that I would guess as well with rhetorical devices and being included with that as well. These things that are very often used in corporate world and political world, that people don't realise our emotional trigger psychologically affecting them and influencing in ways that understand that part of me also wants to get that information to being more genuine knowledge for people because so many people are using those kinds of tools, as as a way to say I've got a bit back with it. So people are using those kinds of tools as a way to manipulate people to their own ends, rather than before other people's greater good. So part of my mission is empowering people to be able to see where there's outside influence being used upon them. And then being able to consciously say, well, is that for my benefit? Or is it just someone trying to rip me off and to be honest to see more and more, maybe see it you may be seen on YouTube and places like this where people are exposing certain certain people who use the sales formulas and then with hype to try and get their sales and what they're offering isn't actually all that valuable, or it isn't even their stuff. And, and they're just, they're just there to make money, they're not there for people's benefit. And that more and more people are becoming aware of those particular situations now than ever before. And so that's part of me, I think of myself as being part of someone who's able to help create that level of awareness. And so that's a big part of my mission to me. Yeah, and I liked what you said, there, you know, I try and always come up with my own content, and try not to look at others too much. Because, you know, there is no frameworks in place. And, and there is some renowned frameworks, you know, some really good sort of acronyms out there to help people remember, but I think, you know, being a sales trainer, or you know, a trainer, or coach, I really like that, you know, to work with someone personally. And you know, now it's kind of over video conference in due to pandemic, but I really like to be in a workshop on site with businesses, and I like to really get to know them as individuals, and what's like their pain points and how I can help solve their problems. I do actually have an E learning course come out. So I'm certainly not going to say, you know, illegal illegal alien, of course, it's, you know, generic, because it's not. But actually, the one that I've got coming out is English for HR. So you said, the HR profession I collaborated, we actually tailored it for that industry sector to give them a personal approach to selling better, but you know, and you know, you can do courses online, or you can like watch, you know, certain content. But I think because from a newer probably you do understand this as well joining it from NLP or from my psychology background, we all know that there, everyone's different. So whether it's your learning style, whether you prefer, you know, reflective learning or active learning or listening, also your communication style. So you might be a visual learner, you might be very auditory or kinesthetic. So I'm fully aware of that. And I need to make sure that each time I'm working with someone, firstly, analyse and understand them, or even ask them what's the best way you'd like to learn. And then you can tailor the training around that Funny enough, I just read an article on LinkedIn, I've got a few articles as sort of series on there. But it was actually the disadvantages of not using an external sales trainer. And if anyone's interested, go to my LinkedIn, as Jamie Martin, I'm on their BSc honours. But he's just a really fascinating, interesting information, you know, really look like We can put a link to the article, as well. That'd be great. Yeah, good. But so no, so you're right. So you know, it's really important to I think, I've said that the quote, I will use now more than ever is personalities will thrive. And I've been using that quite a lot, because I suppose we're, we're recording this podcast, you know, mid pandemic for some countries, but, you know, really sort of post the worst of the pandemic at the moment. So, yeah, hopefully, yeah, you know, fingers crossed. So businesses have handled, the business world has had a lot of changes during that time. And, you know, unfortunately, whether there's some businesses that haven't, you know, survive through it, or there have been redundancies, you know, a lot of companies will now be re strategizing and looking at the areas of the business, and I personally believe without cash flow, or without clients, which comes from selling and prospecting, then then, you know, how can you continue to operate a business? So these are the areas that companies need to look at now, and hopefully will give some advice, you know, far for how businesses listening can do that. Yeah, well, great. And they, they are important skills. And I just want to hone in on one of the things you said about about niching. Because I know that for speakers, for coaches, and for many businesses, there is a reluctance often to niche who they target, as their as their ideal customers, because many of the products or services that work could help could help everybody. But then without doing that, you try and help everybody, you often end up helping nobody. And so those decisions to neach aren't something that's really optional. For most businesses, unless you have a very specific service, then I think you have to focus on niching and targeting specific groups of people because it doesn't exclude everyone else, it just means you're going to have a message that's actually getting through to the people who were most likely to want to solve their problem and pay you to help them solve it. What tell me a bit about your own experience in leasing in your company. Yeah, so so and it is what I train on and you kind of hit the nail on the head there, john, you know, really, I would say Look at this, first of all, do focus on ICP. So your ideal customer profile. Now that that can be a niche, but it doesn't have to just necessarily be a certain demographic or certain industry sector. What I be mean by ICP is, you know, the customer or client who is likely to buy your service, as you kind of just mentioned that so you know, what problem are you solving for them, and it will depend on sort of the if you're a product or service selling industry or maybe the size of business you operate or you know what service or products you actually do deliver. But if you if you could, like you said you can't speak to everyone so web marketing and social media marketing comes in, you have to kind of be consistent, and you have to kind of be personalised in your messaging because, you know, as we're probably aware, it's a 90% emotional by. And that means, you know, if we are communicating on a digital sales space, so social media or our websites, you know, even such things as newsletters, and webinars, which are, you know, bigger more than ever now, you know, what sort of messaging are we give to our target market. So our ideal customer profile, you can't speak to everyone in the room, it's just impossible because the the the the story tell, which is a really good sales technique, as you would you would be aware of, or the emotional message wouldn't resonate with everyone. So you really do have to zone in on the sort of your tribe, your tribe of followers, or clients who are likely to buy from you. So that would be the sort of the first technique I would give. There's something called sinespace selling. And it's actually something that's, that's been more apparent than ever, where they're using analytics and social psychology and neuro psychology, and neuroscience to basically identify what it is your customer actually wants. So it's focusing on the customer by rather than you're actually you know, your process or selling it to someone. So for example, when I was doing a workshop a few months ago, and during that time, in the workshop, I mentioned, someone called Carol herro is one of my favourite clients. Now, I really needed to get to know Carol, so not only just you know, what type of background education she had, but what her personality is, like, what her traits are, like, what she's good at what she's not good at, because she she turned out to be a really good client of mine. And I say, Carol is as the person for the business. So when I said talk to people, I say, so you know, who's your customers at this moment, and, you know, find customers, you know, maybe similar to them, it could be their customers, customers, it could be their competitors, or it could be some as a vendor supply chain, but more and more importantly, now, rather than looking at quantity, we should look at quality. And when there's quite the qualification stages of the actual sales process, you know, I would say it's more about the business, you know, or the or the leaders of the business, the decision makers focus on who they are, how they communicate with, there's a few personality hints I can give, you know, throughout this talk, but you know, focus on them as an individual because the more personalised you make it when you are having that discovery call, or you are doing that maybe that that introductory email, you know, no one really likes to be sold to, we can kind of immediately tell if it's a cold pitch. So the more personal you can make it with someone, the more likely they are to firstly engage with you. And social media, primarily LinkedIn being the number one business to business platform is absolutely fantastic. And utilising it. So you could really kind of research someone on there and find out about, you know, groups, they follow their interest, what do they want any awards or, you know, more information about them. So when you actually pick up the phone, and talk to them, you can say, Oh, you know, you can actually give them some real life information, some real case studies about that person and their company. And then immediately, you've already strengthened the rapport building stage of the sales process. So, so those would be sort of my tips really, for, you know, focus on an area and you can, you know, talk him through this information with you, john, you can really kind of see the benefits of it, you know, when he uses a CRM system, or you know, even if you, you know, we're just gonna use a spreadsheet, and you can identify, you know, who the customers are going to buy from you. So the demographics, what, you know, the personality traits are of the of the decision makers are and if you could really work that out, you could really cut down your, you know, the amount of output in sales activity, you know, it's not about go around knocking on so many doors anymore, you know, in a world, which is forever changing, and everyone's busy. And you probably hard to get hold of people on the phone sometimes now as well. What are the digital selling techniques can you use, but also it's just been about being more efficient in your strategy and process to effectively sell better? Yeah, something something I'd be interested to get your thoughts on? I have a sense and I and I'm not 100% sure on my, I just think I might be right, is that selling is moving moving away from the sort of flashy, aspirational, perfect live kind of shiny, slick sales presentations kind of thing to more of a personalised relationship connected kind of selling. That's that's my sense about what's happening and I heard other people saying this as well. And yet I still see a lot of that perhaps more familiar side of selling where people are they know I'm standing here in front of a private jet which may or may not be mine or here I am with Jared garriage, full of sports cars and telling you or telling you about how great I am and my product is kind of thing that people are I feel like people are responding to that lesson as I know I am. But I can't obviously speak for the whole the whole world but what what's your take? Got that? Yeah, so I completely agree that it should be a personal touch point now So, and I wouldn't what what the reasons why I would say that is because know, like and trust know, like, and trust is a renowned term, you know, within the selling environment, but it really does speak volumes, and I don't think he'll ever change. So you know, if someone knows you, or they like you, or they trust you, they're more than likely going to work with you. And he's, you know, it's harder probably to wouldn't say trust businesses nowadays. That's that's not what I'm saying. I'm thinking everyone sort of had maybe one sort of another a bad experience, you know, and in recruitment, for example, sometimes someone's work, you know, hired someone, and it hasn't worked out. So everyone, you know, in that in that environment, for example, you know, is very dubious, you know, to me, I had to really kind of give them evidence, you know, give case studies and evidence of how I can find the right person for the job and, and the process I went through to do that. So, for example, there was another article series, I've written about millennial bias. So the reason why I researched millennials is because if you look at LinkedIn, for example, so not only does it have 600, and 60 million companies on there, which is absolutely amazing, but 87 billion million Millennials are on there. So a lot of these Millennials are entrepreneurs, they're going to be setting up their own businesses. So companies not only need to, you know, first of all understand the buying behaviour of millennials, but to be able to connect and engage with them, ideally, probably using LinkedIn, I did the research, when I did a survey through this article series, I was writing 100% of millennials said that they would go and read reviews before buying, but also that, that means that they would review your company, so whether that's your recommendations on your personal profile, whether that's testimonials, or case studies on your website, and that would really be a decision maker, as part of the buying process, before actually purchasing. So when you're talking about, you know, building relationships, and building a more personal relationship, I would certainly agree that it is going to be instead of like, sort of, like, you know, the quantitative approach, really focus on the person approach, because naturally, you know, it's always really hard to to pick up a customer or client in the first place, once once, once that's happened, you can really nurture that relationship and and they're more likely to, you know, to stay with you, and you can upsell to them, etc. But at the time of building a relationship, you know, because everybody's selling, it's a very competitive world, probably now more than ever, because of you know, that the challenges we're experiencing. And so you really need to focus on a personal approach. Doing Okay, yeah, if anything, that's all in all important, all great points as well. And I wouldn't argue them what what has been the the relevance or importance of presenting and public speaking in relation to your business. And so for me, to fold, as a sales trainer, you naturally need to develop your skills and communication skills. So you can really resonate to a different type of attendees to your workshops, or webinars or even employees or do is a you know, speaking in front of a larger audience. So for me, I have gone and got some, you know, additional training and speaking, because, you know, it's something that I wanted to get better at, and is completely right to say that everyone needs to develop skills and some areas. But not only that, I feel like, you know, if you are a sales trainer, you really want to deliver conviction, and compelling information. And speaking will be able to help you to do that. webinars, for example, now in hosting more of a virtual space or using video competence, such as zoom or Microsoft Teams, it's a different it's a different world to sell in. And I know I think you'd mentioned it'd be in the show notes that I've written a video conference meetings, top tips to give areas for for anyone really building business relationships over video conferences, you know, we're not in front of people at this moment. So it's harder to read body language. And as we know, 93% is non verbal communication 55% of that being body language. So how can we utilise video conferencing, just to still end with our outcomes, our desired results, and if he was in a client pitch meeting your your obviously goal would be to convert them. So now we're actually relying on more of the content we are speaking, or also the pitch and tone of our voice, which is, you know, a bigger than actually what we speak it's only 7% verbal communication. And actually also, you know, using our facial features, so, you know, smiling, good eye contact, but think about you know, sometimes I do speak with clients and actually prefer to speak on the phone still, which is, you know, not not not surprising, they're more auditory listeners. So on the phone, some techniques, I would say, a stand up, smile, you know, because then naturally, you're more confident in how you speak with them. So really, you know, it's just, it's just a variety of, you know, using different techniques we have in our sales, what we've learned to portray that techniques to what is and I just just leave one last point on this section here, but No video messages, or even an auditory message on LinkedIn private message has actually proved quite useful now. And you know, sometimes I would, you know, go into a video and send that as a as part of a proposal to a client, because it really shows that personal touch. And not everyone maybe you know, understand. So when you're getting the text from a friend, and they, they may split up the stakes a bit quicker in tech, so that, you know, sometimes written communication can be skewed or not portraying the emotional meaning we want it to. So if you can jump on a video, and you can record something for your client or your prospect, or you can send an audio message, think of how their learning style could really resonate that and actually help you join the iron journey. It's interesting, I take the sort of Albert Mehrabian percentages of this with a pinch of salt, because most people misinterpret that. And that's not really what what the study was about. But but I do think, you know, we do need to be aware to be able to work well with the different levels of different styles of communication, because I think it all matters. So when you're limited in one particular sentence, you make up for it or ancient make up for it in others, like if if auditory is your only option. At first, when I first started coaching, phone coaching was really the only option. And because the internet wasn't really good enough at that time to be able to do over voice protocols on the internet. And so everything was focused on that. And even now, I still do like Skype coaching without video with many of my clients. And I don't feel limited by that in any way. But I am aware that I'm perhaps more focused in those particular times rather than on on my facial or postural things on my voice and my tonality, that does give me an opportunity to turn up a particular modality, perhaps in some ways, or at least have a bit more focus on it to improve the communication in those senses. And so, I think, we are finding now that we are having more and more opportunity to communicate in many different channels and many different styles. And it may be that for many people, it is better to find the channels that you feel you can communicate invest in that you're most comfortable with. And then you will still connect with other people, we all have the I think we will have the ability to to enjoy audio or video just as much even if we're in if we may feel more highly kinesthetic, or auditory did did so you know, we use all of these modalities, but we do have our own preferred styles. And I do personally think it's more important that you work in the in the styles that you're most comfortable with, rather than worry too much about why everyone else's, because people will be able to adapt or to work with whatever you're doing. If you are comfortable and working well with what you're doing. So So for me, it's that may be a bit of a different take on, on what you're saying that but that's all all relevant stuff, it's all relevant stuff, then good to be considering. Well, you know, I will, I will agree with you on the fact that first of all play to your strengths. So this is where personality and psychometric testing comes in, you know, if you really understand yourself, you know, what your likes are, what your dislikes are, your your personality traits, your characteristics, etc, etc, you know, then you can really kind of play to your strengths and anything that you know, you need develop areas off, you could either outsource that, or you could get some, you know, additional support with. And so I would say definitely play to your strengths. But then I suppose the other side of that, and there is a there is a few personality testing tests to help you and then also help develop relationships with others. You know, for example, you could be an introvert, but your your customer base could be extroverts. So you do need to be able to find a way of communicating with your with your target audience, you know, and it's going to be different for every every single individual, every single business, but I think you you, you know, if you're not playing to your strengths, then that's when that's when you're probably best at selling if we're talking about, you know, the selling environment here. So you can't, you can't necessarily, you know, change yourself too much. We can all adapt. But I do think you're right, I think there's an element needed there. I think you first of all need to understand who you're selling to and make sure that you know, the messaging is clear for them. The communication style is clear for them. But then also, you know what, what you're good at. So if we are talking about personality testing, for example, I know from the Myers Briggs, have you heard of the Myers Briggs? I have I'm pretty familiar with it. And I know it gets a lot of it goes well scrutinised as well. But yeah, it's I find all of these things interesting. well for for Myers Briggs, I know that I'm an INFJ. So that that does talk about introversion and judging and you know, traits of feelings. So that's probably what the subcategories means. But overall, it means I'm a counsellor. So I really know a bit more about you know, how I am and what my strengths are. And you know, it says I'm compassionate and supportive so that naturally helps with with training and development and Anyway, but I think, you know, if you if you understand some of your personality traits, then it shows that you know, okay, so so maybe, how do I say this, like, you know, because sometimes you will hear the term a good and a bad customer. And now Nowadays, people don't want to have a bad customer, because although there is money there, you know, effectively, you're gonna, you're probably still going to get a headache through the whole experience of it. So you know, maybe it is that you know, your, your target customers are people a bit more like you. And when I talk about, we mentioned this before, john, the personal approach, it might be that I'm not really gonna resonate with certain characteristics and traits to individuals like me, and then we're naturally maybe going to build a quick and better rapport during the the prospecting stage. And they'll see you know, my strengths, and they'll all also understand the strengths, because they may have them as well. So that really could play to your advantage. And I suppose some experience I've had with psychometrics is when I was in the recruitment industry, during like, the senior level roles or hips, you know, second or third stage process, then, you know, some clients would opt to use the psychometric tests, and because they would really understand at that point, he would give some indicators, I mean, psychometric tests really are a more of a framework, you know, because there's always going to be, you know, a set norm for a while, but there's gonna be variables as well. And that it would give an indication of, you know, what, what their strengths are, and I think for maybe a leadership position is absolutely vital, because, depending on what operational side of the business are taken over, or department or the team existing, you know, if we were looking to replace the, or hire a new leadership member, then you know, you really got to make sure that they are going to gel with other members of in the business. So that will really give a good indication. And a couple of psychometric I will make aware are two people, there's something called my role. So my role is actually very good. It's more about working within a business. And it's got several different behavioural modes to it. So we're talking drive it energising analyse and organise them. And that's really understanding, you know, as a leader, and within the team, so team differences, but also leader to, to employees, you know, the motivators, the behaviours, you know, how what, what your strengths are, what they're like, and how you can really, you know, because when you're, when you're managing a team, you specifically a sales team, you go through the four stages of team development. So it starts with forming, storming, norming, storming, performing, basically. So during those stages, you know, if you've got the right team in the right positions, and, you know, they're naturally bought into what you do, and you really understand what motivates them, and what drives them, then you can become a really high performance team. So that that's basically the purpose of that disk. disk profiling is something similar. You know, and it's got that bad day, but the dominance influence steadfast and compliance sections, and that's also good internally, but also externally building relationships with, you know, customers or clients. And there's, there's, there's colour, there's various colour, psychometrics. So that's, you know, also interesting to know about your cutter, I heard that one company, Food Network I was talking about, you know, actually had a colour code on their telephone system. So you would know who you were, what other people colours they were, as well, which is slightly interested. So would you tailor your behaviour, depending on who you're speaking with? You know, I found I find these sorts of interesting, and, and I'm generally reluctant to put too much weight on them, because I think they can, they can offer you useful insights, that one of my concerns sometimes having worked in the personal development industry, in some of these groups, where we've given people these tests is that people, people just say, That's me, that's who I am. That's what I am. And it's like, well, it's what you what you appeared to be today, or what the test is sort of indicating that you have tendencies towards more towards these things than other things. But you know, that certain psychometrics, you might take six months or a year later and be not completely different, but quite different, or some of the levels may change a bit. But maybe dominant features might still stay the same, sir. I mean, as as insights into things that might be helpful to you to understand how you best operate, and how to work with yourself, I think they can be really, really useful. And it's great to get some feedback because I don't think we've talked about this on my podcast at all before now. That my maione maybe advice or concern and this is to Don't, don't take it as your bad this is who I am, this is what I am. Okay, we can change we can evolve and take it as a Okay, this is this is some guidance as to holding a mirror up to yourself and saying these are these are things that are appearing for you. And you can choose it as your identity or you can say Oh, okay, there's some things I maybe want to work on if I want to be more like this and to take care As as just a tool just as a reflection not as an identity in itself, which, which I worry that some people do too much with those things. But I've used certainly things like disk I find very interesting. And I think of metaprogramming dissertations, which you may have come across in NLP as well, which I worked with several companies and using things like that as a recruitment tool as well. Because again, it gives guidance and gives them some clues as to who's going to stay or who's gonna fit into the environment. And, and that's what it's clear, it's not a complete that definition of who you are. But sometimes people say, No, this is me, and this is what I am. And this is everything about everything. Yeah, I think you're definitely right there. I mean, it's a point in time that you've taken the the psychometrics. And you've got to bear that in mind, because people do change situations make people change as well. There is an interesting statistic, I did research about psychometrics. So the Gallup, which has a you know, I've done a few actually psychometric with them recently. But they they said that data data led companies are 23% more likely to acquire customers. So I do think, from the firmness, maybe like a scientific back of, you know, approach was a psychological background, you know, having data does help, it does provide, you know, some some evidence or some, you know, numerical statistics where, you know, it can guide you in the right direction. And, and I think, I think that I think it does hold its place, but I also think you're right, you don't want to just say that, you don't want to kind of make excuses that because I am this, that's the way I'm going to be We will also gonna be so malleable as well. And I think there's something called neuro plasticity, which actually means that we Yes, we can actually, we can be we can change, I will actually leave the audience, you know, really useful website if they haven't heard of this. So it's actually called crystal nose. Have you heard of crystal nose? No. So well, as an action point for you, john, go ahead, go download it, if you've got Chrome, it basically aligns with LinkedIn, and what it does, people you're speaking with on LinkedIn, it gives you an indication of their personality traits and characteristics. Obviously, it's done from from, you know, from their process or their data, but it's actually quite useful to know for example, you know, it can tell you a little bit about their likes, and dislikes maybe and if they are, say, you know, more trusting or whatever, because that's really going to help if you are approaching someone, say, utilising social media, like LinkedIn, whether to engage or whether to, you know, to sort of, you know, do a private message, you know, how to communicate with them. So, yeah, there's a really useful tool, actually. And I liked what you said, you know, we were talking about influencer, you know, child Dinis book, you know, absolutely fantastic. You mentioned earlier, there wasn't, there wasn't, it's funny, because that was when, you know, not funny, haha, but it just goes to show, you know, how authority or people who are experts in that field can actually influence others. So there is a study, I remember in psychology milgrom 1963. Have you heard of that study? Yeah. Yeah. And it just shows how, you know, you can kind of shocks, right, yeah, the electric shocks. Well, I'm not saying anyone should do that at all. But how you can, you know, influence others, you know, in a position of authority to be able to distribute something like that. So. So, I think where we're going with personality is, first of all, understand that everyone does have individual differences, and how we can use it to our advantage. And I think we mentioned at the start, so naturally, I was a bit of an introvert growing up, and now a sales trainer, you you need to be a bit more of an ambivert or an extrovert, an ambivert. Being between the two, I think you're an ambivert. JOHN, is that right? or? Yeah, now and now I would describe myself as an ambivert I think there was a time when I wouldn't very much said introvert, but yeah, we've moved the needle on that one. So you know, now being a sales trainer where I you know, need to be speaking and presenting and, you know, in front of, you know, audiences or employees, you know, you really got to have that, that confidence about you. But, but you don't have to be, you know, the socialist outgoing person ever, you can, you can just naturally demonstrate your, your credibility, prop your authenticity, and as long as your your values, your belief, your conviction is there, then you can be in a training position, or you can be a public speaker, so, we won't look you won't pigeonhole ourselves again, on, you know, if you will, what type of personality you are, but I think now more than ever, so, there are some famous people we're talking Bill Gates marks, Mark Zuckerberg, JK Rowling, you know, various owners out there who basically were introverts and look at what they've created. They created, you know, empires, but you know, amazing, amazing things. Steven Spielberg also been another one. And I think during this time of the pandemic, the reason why I say my quote is personalities will thrive. If it's going to have to condition extroverts who are naturally outgoing, sociable people who thrive on and their energy is from, you know, being in front with people in crowds of people, they're going to have to now be a bit more isolated. So, so how can they adapt their skill set to still excel in what they're good, but also likewise, introverts You know, this, this is a time where the The only thing hopefully, you know, from such you know, certain situations such as the, you know, Coronavirus, you know, moving forward, if new technology is created during this time from, from people who have the capability to do this, or you know, or medicine or, you know, that or science or whatever it may be, that can really help the human race and our lives moving forward. So, I suppose this time, you know, the introverts may excel in certain areas, you know, what's your sort of thoughts on that, john, you know, how we go, I think that I think there are a unique strengths to both sides. And, and definitely, if you if you if you find yourself being an extreme extrovert, or an extreme introvert, and it would be a good idea, I think, to work on moving yourself more to the closer to the centre of somewhere circling around them to that, because I think we need both, we need to be able to cope well, in times of quiet and, and well by ourselves. And we need to meet email to restore ourselves with a bit of quiet time. But we also hopefully, can still do that in in more social situations as well and push ourselves out there, I think there's a degree. And it may actually be easier for people who are more introvert to push themselves towards extrovert than the other way around. Because I think there's more necessity for it. And necessity is a big driver, really, for people. And I think we're in a situation now in the world where there really isn't a choice but to be presenting in some way, whether it's on video calls, which a lot of people saying they're getting sick of it, it's like, well, I think that people would get over it in time. Because I know, I know, for myself, most of my work for the last 10 years has been almost exclusively online, with video conferencing and things like that. And, and I never got sick of it, I never thought about it, because it for me, it was just freedom, it was allowing me to work from wherever I wanted to work from, it allowed me to leave the UK. And something that I've been able to improve on, I hope over that time as well. And get better at being able to give online presentations, run webinars have more energy, and focus on improving my own speaking skills, all these things, starting up my own podcasts, and things that have pushed me further towards that sort of where I would now describe myself as as an Viva, I'm quite happy to put myself on stage in front of people. And in fact, I actually look forward to and enjoy it now. And that was the stage where now could never have imagined myself being there before. There really is no choice. Now if you have your own business, or if you're an operator, anyone to do well, in terms of any kind of corporate environment, I think you have to be able to present Well, you have to be able to speak and represent yourself well. And to be able to communicate effectively not just in the boardroom and presentations or to the company, but in your one on one communications in your evaluations with your with your staff and wherever else you have to do in terms of communication, these skills are really essential being able to do them online or in person. So many people that I've worked with having have had no real training in being able to communicate well in their business and about one particular guy which would last year had risen to a very high position in his in the company he was with at that time, and had never been trained on communication on leadership skills or anything like that he had started off as a mechanic risen up and was just doing his best muddling through. And so we were able to work on some really specific things that helped him present himself better communicate more clearly, I think it must have inspired him a lot because he went and started his own business and but you know, these seem you can see these kinds of things as being they were important before the the non optional now. Yeah, and again, this is also an integral topic, if we're talking about selling for the sales team, so it doesn't you know, whether you're a different person as you're not and out to your customer, I don't, you know, again, we talked about it, it may be a helps to know that that is about building relationships. And the way to do that really is to if communication is the key. So first of all, you know, first of all understand who your customers are is an absolute integral part of it, but how are you communicating with them? And you know, it's it's successful salespeople out there, you know, they don't have to be the most extroverted, you know, people ever, you know, it's just really about, you know, building the personalised relationships. But I think there's also a bit of a mindset factor as well. So, you know, a lot of sales, individuals will, you know, maybe stop communicating or contact and a prospect, after a few attempts, maybe they feel, you know, internally that they certainly didn't want to be bugging in which I quite understand. But you've also got to look at it from the other side, you know, it's not that the customer, first of all might not have seen your message, they might just be busy, it's not that they don't want the service, they might just want it right now. So unless someone really says sort of, you know, I'm fine, I'm not interested, then there is opportunity to touch points with them, you know, via various channels, when appropriate. And that's, that's, that's something I'd really do help the mindset with, you know, sales individuals with, and again, communication, you know, can help with that. So maybe you might be reading better at writing sort of compelling copy, or doing social media, marketing, whether it is that you're better on the phone or video conferencing, and I think, you know, from a business capacity, so I was sort of training that a lead generator. And so he sort of approached me as an external sales trainer, you know, what, you know, great for me and great, he was wanting to develop his own growth mindset. And then, you know, because there wasn't every single process available within the business. And I explained, you know, well, you know, I can sort of see the way you communicate over videoconferencing. Why don't you you know, do video conferencing as part of your sales conversion, and it's something that the business just you know, did, you know, you do at that point in time, so businesses have got to be sort of quite adaptable to say, actually, you know, first of all, understand the individual differences of everyone what their strengths are, and, you know, be be willing to give them, you know, that opportunity to do what they do best. And it might be that now, especially because we are embracing and working from home, or you know, or digital selling now, and using video conferencing, as you mentioned, a couple of times, you know, first of all, I say, training and development, sales training is absolutely a must, if you haven't, if you've had limited experience, so you haven't had that much experience. Because that, you know, there are various stages to a lead generation discovery call. And if you're not kind of following a bit of a framework, you know, I Are you building a relationship and are you sort of controlling the call to a certain extent to end with a you know, an outcome, or at least you know, so the the the messages you are trying to communicate is clear to your prospect, because, again, prospects are going to be very busy with their time. And if you don't, I think humans have an eight second attention span, which is one second lower than a goldfish, I'm sure there's controversy of it on Google, but it just goes on what it is you're focusing on, but very true, but you know, it realistic, you know, whatever is five to seven seconds for you to buy, which I ran out of material. So well, you know, our attention span isn't, you know, is short, because it says it's a very noisy world, especially in a digital world. So you really got to understand how to build relationships quickly, and and what sort of sales process to follow in your communication style, and the prospects to basically end with desired results? Yeah, I think the attention span stuff is more relevant, where you don't have the relationship, I think, where you do where people are more hooked in, I think it's less of an issue. Personally, I don't have science to back that out. But that's my, that's my take from experience at least as well. So may or may not be true, I might have to look into it a bit more. But I like very much like what you were saying about past 90 being really important right now. And one of the things that I think it makes that because it makes a big connection, but I know there are people who may roll their eyes at hearing authenticity, and that around one more time or relationship marketing, everyone's talking about it, it's not me yet, but they're talking about it for a reason. And how do you think people can best help present that personality online? What are some of the things that that we should be thinking about? First of all, there's something I teach in one of my workshops, and it's about, it's about you and your brands. So, you know, I mean, LinkedIn is commonly seen as a business, a business and more of a professional business related site. So you've really got to show your personality on there by you know, not just posting about, you know, the business all the time, you know, you can, you know, talk about other areas, maybe you're involved within the community or within charity work, and if people really want to get to know you for the person you are. And also they're gonna more likely remember you if you if you stand out in certain areas. So definitely, you know, I would say, you know, doing career in social media, marketing about some, something, you know, personal to you, you can certainly share news related articles or content or write an article, a lot of top tips article about something you're passionate about. And then you can you can certainly demonstrate in the way you write and what your opinions are, your, your personality there. And but also, you know, you've got your LinkedIn company page, whether you're a business owner or a part of the company, but your personal profile is about you. Certainly, you can write you know, text on or about what your company does. And when we are writing about things that it's not just about the features, it's really is about the benefits and the outcomes. And what your customers say about you is, you know, the most important because then it's about a third party speaking about you and the service or products you provide And you sign it yourself, but, but on your personal profile, you know, put put some extracurricular activities or documents on there really give a bit of, you know, a flavour personality and also in the in the social media marketing and the copy you write, you know, yet authenticity means you know, you're consistent. So as long as you you know, you portray a consistent message about your personal personality or about you know, the business you are promoting about the time, then then I think others will actually get at the message, you know, when when new relationships are formed, you are right about, you know, if someone's already engaged, if it's, if it's an existing client, then naturally, I think you should just, you know, make sure you listen to them, during these times, you know, if they're going through a difficult time, it's not about selling or upselling, it's about, you know, just just checking, they're okay, you know, and something I really like is called random acts of kindness. So, you know, occasionally just do some really kind for them, whether it's just, you know, sending them a gift for doing something engagement with them on social media, but for for new prospects, in which a lot of businesses are looking for new business nowadays, which is kind of what I specialise in. From my recruitment background, you know, breaking down doors effectively, not literally, but you know, because you might need to look for new industry sectors, so you've got to do a lot of research, you know, about the industry, how it operates, you know, what groups they're in, what podcasts they listen to, are going to really identify the person you're speaking with. But the more you demonstrate your personality, when you are identifying yourself with new relationships, the more they are likely to remember you. And to be honest, it is about being remembered in a sales capacity in a business capacity moves. But I think one of the one of the most challenging things, especially when maybe in the earlier days of doing something like that, is that without responsiveness without engagement from people, it's hard to know how that's being received. What what are some of the things that you might recommend people to do to try and turn up responsiveness? Okay, so with engagement, like I said, it may not be that they don't want your service right now, it may just be that they're busy, or they haven't seen your your message or your private message on LinkedIn, because not everybody does. So social media marketing and engaging is actually quite a good way of, you know, developing relationships. So you know, it's been, it's been, it's been, you know, doing it in a professional credible way. So if you'd like to post that someone seen one of your prospects, you know, really do comment or share it, you know, to support their network, you know, if it's an article, they returned, and then they know read it and engage with it, or whatever it may be that you actually kind of identify what your customer your prospects interests are, and you send them a link of interest, you know, you're not selling at this point, you are literally just nurturing relationships. And the first few times, yes, it may not go anywhere, because like I said, it is a noisy place. But these different touchpoints, as I've kept kept mentioning, and when you're using a cadence, so a series of activities in a strategic way to develop relationships, you know, it's naturally going to, you know, help strengthen the engagement with a prospect, but it's not maybe just that one person that you're trying to do that with, you know, you kind of got to do a variety of things, whenever you're in PR, whether you're doing you know, your own marketing, whether you're collaborating or you know, synergizing with others, you know, if you're or whether you post them to groups that maybe your prospect is actually in, they really got to see that you are you are an expert within your field. And like to say we do we need to work various different hats, sometimes to, to portray an image about ourselves. But, you know, the more and, you know, I think the most powerful when we said know, like and trust when we're talking about referrals, so referrals to me, because I think, you know, this is, you know, slightly we're talking about reviews, but 92% of reviews said by TripAdvisor and G to source online, they talk about that, that convinces someone to buy, once they've read reviews, it's the same with a referral, if someone introduces you via an email, or via telephone or video conference, whatever it may be, they've already demonstrated that they know like and trust you to refer you to that, that probably their customer or someone they know within the network anyway, so any referrals is really going to help businesses right now. And that's the message I would get. There are some brilliant industries out there, due to the pandemic, you know, whether it's technology, or whether it might be, you know, something to do with medical or pharmaceutical, you know, if you have connections, who can refer you out, that's probably the best way to be introduced right now. Because, you know, it is a noisy place. Otherwise, do do the different various different touch points which are relevant to your customers. And like I said, it's really not all about sudden, it's about providing value, providing information, whether it's a self help guide, or a link of interest, really do do something, you know, that's going to benefit your prospect from effectively speaking and communicating with you. Yeah, it's good. And one of the things that I found for helpful for getting more engagement on LinkedIn has been to be more engaged on LinkedIn with other people. And that has started up conversations and it means big By having more conversations with different people, they're more likely to come and have a conversation on your posts as well. Which is great for engagement and for visibility as well. And so sometimes, but also putting out different types of posts as well, sometimes a text post, sometimes a video, sometimes an image post, and having happened some different things as well gets a gets different responses and different views. And say it's been interested in that some of the highest responsiveness I get on LinkedIn particularly, is to purely text kind of messages that are put out there like a post that is all text rather than any kind of image or video attached to it is interesting, if you if you say that I think that the written word is still very powerful on our platform, I guess where many people are surfing at, they're either working in a maybe in a shared space or somewhere where they're not going to have the sound on that text engagement might be easier there. Whereas on other platforms, maybe not but but as not to the level of pods where you just go And like and comment on each other's posts just to get the views, which I think is a bit dodgy. But to actually start building up your community and getting engagement with people, it can start with you. And I think it's a really good, a really good strategy. And especially right now where you know, all the stuff we talked about today about relationship and being involved and engaged with people and like being known liked and trust, you can start that journey, don't wait for anyone else to start it with you provide, you know, provide stuff that adds value to them, but provide comments or just ask questions will show that you care about people, it's all really good stuff. And you can start doing that right now on on your social profiles. Yeah, and I think you know, part of you sort of towards the end of this, I'd like to mention something that I'd like to leave as a final note, really, and you just literally said it, you know, there and this is this is one, this is one of my favourite habits from Stephen Covey's highly seven highly effective habits of effective people. And basically, that is synergy. So synergy means, you know, to two heads are better than one. And, you know, effectively collaboration, collaboration means businesses working together. And they may be you know, completely different businesses that have come together now to support one another. But it's a bit more than that. And, you know, when you mentioned about engaging with others, so reciprocity, so you know, if you if you naturally refer businesses to you know, customers, they feel that they would want to help your business as well. And I think collaboration is the key now more than ever, in a changing world, when, whenever, you know, whenever we've all had to step outside of our comfort zones, our personalities, be in adapt, adaptable, changing the way our sales process sales strategy and business operates. You know, it's really now exploring those joint ventures, those collaborations and supporting the business community, whether that's a local space, and that working group, or a global, you know, community, you know, like, such as LinkedIn, as we talked, you know, quite a bit about, it really is making sure that we can support the business community and, you know, continue, you know, that their business stay invisible during these times. And effectively, you know, that I've always said, synergy, you know, and, and that's what's helped me in my business, you asked me to start, you know, what did I do in my business, so immediately going to go into networking events, now you can go webinars and meet people all over the world. And if that's my international relationships, I've been developed from video conferencing, because, you know, we're able to do that more, and we are embracing change. So yeah, to the audience out there, you know, collaboration synergizing is definitely the key to, you know, Bing, you know, and continuing success. Yeah, certainly, I mean, the the the UK, particularly now is just officially in the time of recession, and many people are going to be panicking about that and, and thinking that there's no opportunity or no hope for them and but know, what you say still applies, opportunity is still there. And working together with people collaborating and looking for those opportunities to find synergy and to, to grow and expand you that those are going to be great avenues to be exploring, and really, hopefully going to lead us to more positive business environments in the future and to greater success as well. I think that's a great thing to be wrapping things up on today, that many people are going to want to know more about you because you've already shared some great insights, some resources and, and that we've put the links to some of the things you shared into the show notes as well. But if people want to just find out a bit more about you, what's the best way to do that? Yeah, I'm happy to for any, you know, questions and to build connections and relationships. This is what I really enjoy doing. So I'd probably say contact me on LinkedIn as Jamie Martin and you'll see the BSc ons on there. My website is www. Correct curries coaching.com and my contact details are on there as well. But yes, the you know in the show notes, he will provide the top tips guide and some articles I've written. And, you know, I welcome building relationships with anyone who wants to find out more. And you know, again, build synergy, really. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me today. JOHN. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. We've covered loads of areas of interests and insights and hope you want to join us in into it. It's been a great conversation. Thank you for your time today, and we'll stay connected in the future. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, John. Hey, hope you enjoyed the show. Remember to hit the subscribe button for an apple podcast leave us a review. why not check out a free copy of my new ebook the five key beliefs of bulletproof business speakers available free on present influence.com Join us next week when I'll be speaking about disability access in relation to media and presentation and training events. with disability expert and accessibility expert Ese Hardy, we had a great conversation and this is a really important area for anyone who's in speaking and training and presenting to know about and understand because there is potentially a whole segment of your audience who are missing out because you're not serving them if you're not meeting disability access needs for them. Join us for that show and many more to come. Make sure you like us, subscribe to the show. See you next time.