Finding Self in a World of Assumptions: Multiracial Identity and Belonging

In this episode, Shawna Gann is joined by graduate student Brieanna Hairston cohost Rachel Sadler. Together, they explore the complexities of racial identity, inclusion, and belonging through the lens of multiracial and racially ambiguous individuals.

Brieanna shares personal experiences growing up in a predominantly White area, navigating racial microaggressions from an early age, and finding her place in diverse academic and professional settings. Rachel reflects on the intersection of race, culture, and societal expectations, providing a candid perspective on navigating life as a biracial Black woman. The conversation touches on the effects of colorism, cultural stereotypes, and fetishization, while highlighting the importance of representation and the evolving understanding of multiracial identities. The group also discusses the role of community, historical contexts like Sundown Towns, and the need for equity-driven progress in the workplace and beyond.

Tune in for a powerful dialogue about embracing authenticity, breaking stereotypes, and creating inclusive spaces in both personal and professional spheres. 

You can also watch the episode on YouTube!

Stuff to Check Out:

• Sundown Towns
• Sundown Towns: A Hidden Dimension of American Racism
• Historical Database of Sundown Towns
• The ‘Black Wife Effect’

If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show. Continue the conversation on Instagram and find Season 5 episodes on YouTube.

Our True Colors is powered by True Culture Coaching & Consulting. Head to our website to find out how True Culture Coaching and Consulting can support you and your organization, and subscribe to our LinkedIn Newsletter, The Culture Clinic, for more great content. You can find us at truecultureconsulting.com where you can also contact us to schedule a free consultation.

Transcript

Intro  00:06

Welcome to our true colors, hosted by Shawna Gan. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  00:21

Hi everybody. Happy 2025 to you. It's a new year, and we've got more great guests and episodes lined up for you. In this particular episode, Rachel's going to be joining me with our guest, Brieanna Hairston.

Shawna  00:38

Brieanna is from Grand Forks, North Dakota, and she's going to talk to us about her experiences growing up there, as it compares to her grad school experiences now, as she's an MBA student, and we get into lots of good stuff in this conversation, not only her experiences, but what it's like as a racially ambiguous person, even navigating geographic areas. We even get into a little bit of dating. So I'm gonna go ahead and wrap up this introduction so we can get into the good stuff. Here we go.

Shawna  01:12

Brieanna, it's so good to have you. Could you tell us a little bit about yourself? We know that you are all about the business administration, but what else tell us about you? 

Brieanna Hairston  01:22

Yeah, that sounds good. I grew up with my mom and my sister in Grand fork. Currently, I am also a part of the MBA Association at my school, which allows me to also network within my new area of Virginia, which has been nice since I was brand new to the area and didn't really know anybody. It made a huge difference for me, you know. So with guests, I get to kind of chat with people a little bit before coming on the show. And Brieanna, you talked a little bit about your experience growing up, but not just growing up, but where you are now, feeling like there aren't a whole lot of people that you can identify with or that you could relate to, I guess, given your identity, can you talk a little bit about that? I grew up in a predominantly white area, and then I guess the second most populous thing would be Native Americans, which is also a big population base in North Dakota. So growing up, there really wasn't that many students in my class that looked like me, or even in the whole school, so I felt a lot different. And at an early age, I knew I was different just because of the things, some of the comments I heard from other students in the classroom. So like even as early as kindergarten, I remember knowing that I was different in the eyes of most of my classmates. So that was something that I guess was always in the back of my mind, starting off at an early age, living here and growing up here. What does a kindergartner notice when you when you say you felt different? Um, I just remember like, trying to be friends with some of the people and or even inviting someone to my birthday party and then saying comments like, oh, I can't go to your birthday party because you're black. And that's what I remember her word for word, she said to me. So just hearing stuff like that and from somebody that was non white herself was just kind of, you know, shocking, wow. So, wow, yeah, yeah, that is interesting, yeah. So, just a little bit shocking. And then even in first grade, it happened again with a different student. He said you couldn't be my friend because of my skin tone. So just like stuff like that at such an early age is just very eye opening, because at that age, you don't really understand that until you're, I guess, experiencing it out firsthand. 

Shawna  03:33

I would say the first time anyone ever told me they couldn't hang out with me was this guy. I'll never forget this, but I was like, 12 or 13. I think this guy, Scott, his So Scott, if you're listening, I don't even know his last name is. We talked for a long time, but then he was from Kentucky. Y'all don't make fun of my, my Kentucky accent, but he said, My daddy said, I can't talk to you anymore. And I was like, What the heck? And that broke my heart, because, like, he was fine, the kids are fine. It was the parents that were going messing up stuff. And I just was like, Oh my gosh. And then the sad part is, it happened many, many, many more times, but I was older, so it breaks my heart to hear, especially like in elementary school, when birthday parties are happening and kids are really trying to make friends. I'm sorry to hear that Brieanna, 

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  04:31

then adults come in and ruin everything. I had a similar experience in middle school. So I'm biracial. My mom is black and my dad is white, and kids were telling me you have to pick one like a sigh. And I was, you know, my parents raised me as biracial, so it was like that was a foreign concept to me. And then my Ricky I was trying to date. I remember that it is like ingrained in my memory. And I remember we were walking home from school one day. Okay, and his mom comes outside and was like, get over here right now. You cannot talk to one of those girls. And I was like, What do you mean? One of those girls? I'm I'm an A student, right? Really well Institute. And it was that he came next day. He was like, my mom doesn't want me to talk to you because you're a black girl. And again, I was never that was not part of my understanding, of my experience. I was a mixed girl, so that was huge mind blow for me at 12, being like, Okay, 

Shawna  05:30

I think that this is a very common thing that happens, but people who aren't in the space of multi racial folks or understanding racial ambiguity, or any sort of mixed heritage or ethnicity, a lot of people don't get it. And I have had so many conversations recently with people they know, but they've told me they've talked to people who have never heard of the one drop rule, or have never heard of the concept of hypo descent. And I was like, how is that possible? But then it occurred to me that maybe that's a conversation that people of color, specifically people with Black or African ancestry, have, but maybe others don't, because I don't ever remember here, did you? Did you have your hypo descent lesson in school? I sure didn't. That was not my history book. Absolutely no. You know, I have plenty to say about this, but I want Brieanna to start, because I will debrief. Well, I wanted to ask that. That's why I'm posing it, because both of you said that. Well, actually, Brieanna, I think you shared what your racial identity is, but I heard both of you say that the people that said that you couldn't spend time with them anymore was because you were black. Yeah. So to me, that was an application of hypo descent, which, interestingly, today people don't know about what thoughts do you have about that? Yeah, I guess that is a good topic. Like, I guess I can share what my cultural background is. My My mom is majority white with a small bit of Japanese, and then my father is African American. So growing up, sometimes people didn't know what I was. I've actually been mistaken for Asian, Hispanic, you name it, which I'm which I don't really identify with. So I mean, that small bit of Asian I don't really identify with that, like my great grandmother's from Japan, but I still, you know, along Long down the line that I don't really consider myself to be Asian, but a lot of times people say that, but I don't really perceive myself as that, like when I look in the mirror. I don't feel like I look Asian or any of that kind of thing. So I always did understand how they're getting really see me as like a mixed person, like half black, half white. I didn't understand that they how they couldn't see that, because I always could see that in the mirror, but it was just very eye opening to me. Like you said, some people would consider me just mixed and not black, but some people would consider me just black. So that's always been interesting, how it's perceived by everybody so different and perceived differently than you personally identify. Yeah.

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  07:57

Yeah. It's super frustrating, because you know what comes along with the facets of blackness, right? Like we talked about colorism, things of that nature is this fetishization of, like, biracial black people. So identify a biracial black person, and so people, usually men, are like, Oh, are you Hispanic? Are you Latina? Are you this? And that they're like, my mother is black, my father is white. There is, like, very little to romanticize about, you know, my ethnicity, but even in that, it's like, oh, you're biracial. You're mixed, like, you got quote, unquote, good hair. And it's like, here we go again, with these layers of ascribed meaning to what people say or assume you're racism, you know, having a conversation about the definition between, like, race, ethnicity and nationality, or is also a thing. I'll have people like, What's your nationality? I'm American. That's always my answer whenever they ask you, what are you I'm American. Well, your nationality. My nationality is American. My ethnicity and my race, though, are different, and people don't have that historical context. People that are, you know, trying to say words like dei and CRT, that don't understand the academics behind it are just saying that to be inflammatory. And so when you change language to make it inflammatory and fear mongering, all that stuff, you know, like that is the goal. It is to take language and create something that people need to be afraid of because they don't understand it. Because, again, we went back, none of these. We never taught any of these things. And in public school anyway, you know, we had to go to other levels of education to understand it. And if the average person doesn't have that context, then it's something they become afraid of because they don't understand it.

09:42

Yeah,

Shawna  09:52

Brieanna, can I go back to something else you said you talked about, like growing up and where you were living and stuff feeling like there weren't a lot? People that look like you or were like you. And I know because you're doing all the fancy things with the the BAS and the MBAs and all the stuffs look I work in corporate America. I mean, right now, I work for myself, but I've been in that space, and specifically in the business world, there's been a pretty I think it's changing, but it also might depend on where you are. I'm in the DC area, so it's pretty diverse here, too. Most big, big cities are but a lot of times it can be pretty homogenous. And I just wonder you're in school for this, like, are you seeing the same thing in school? Or what comes to mind for you to think about your identity and the people you're with, and what this could look like as you go out into the workspaces, or maybe you have already, and you can speak to that. 

Brieanna Hairston  10:45

So my experience, like at University of North Dakota, was a lot different as well than William and Mary, just as far as the diversity goes, I guess at UND, there wasn't too much diversity. It was a lot of students from North Dakota and Minnesota that were predominantly white students. And the students that were more diverse were often athletes coming from out of state, coming in, into North Dakota, specifically just to play sports such as basketball, football, track, stuff like that. So that was the diversity within und and currently at William and Mary, I would say about there's about 100 students within my MBA class, on my graduating class. So I would say about maybe 40 to 50% of them are actually from international so there is a good diversity. I would say we have about 20 different countries represented within my cohort alone. So it's pretty diverse that way, which is very nice. I'm I've been able to meet students from all over the world, build relationships with them, learn more about their culture and what businesses like, maybe in their country, and if they intend to go back to their country, what what that looks like for them in the future, or if they intend to stay here, what that would look like for them. 

Shawna  11:52

That's awesome. So you know what? I did a survey earlier this spring, and I asked folks who identify they the part of the survey, like the participants needed to to identify as people who are multiracial. However their multiracial mess was is up to them, but that was kind of the thing. And I asked them, like, what's work like, whatever the work experience is. And some people were like, I think it's perfectly fine. I have no issues. Some people said most of their issues were outside of the workplace. And then there were people who were like, it's rough. And I think a lot of it had to do with maybe how they present phenotypically, like, what they look like, versus how they identify. So for people who are multiracial or multi ethnic and are not white, presenting this, that's where it starts to sort of vary a little bit. So I was just curious, have you had experiences outside of school with work at all? 

Brieanna Hairston  12:45

Or, um, I used to work prior to school. I did a lot of retail type of work, and I guess it was for a smaller Mom and Pop type of shop, so there wasn't very many employees there. So I would say that wasn't as diverse, but it was still a really good group of people, and they were all very welcoming of me. Yeah. So that was a great experience. For me. And then as far as, like, actual, more professional types of roles, I've done a couple of different internships, and within the internships, my first one didn't offer that much diversity. It was a lot of white men and from military background, if that makes sense. And then my second internship role was a lot more diverse. It was for a little bit larger of a company. So they had a lot more diversity within that organization than the one that was based out of North Dakota. So there always is that difference, or wherever you go to, like a bigger area there, there seems to be more diversity. And then also, as the company gets larger, I would say, 

Shawna  13:39

yeah, yeah. That makes sense, for sure. I don't know about you, Rachel or Brieanna, but for me, I find that a lot of the times it could be just because of how I present phenotypically, I don't know, or whatever, but a lot of my social interactions are with brown folks who either are from other countries, or just who they themselves are, racially ambiguous, no matter what our identities are. I think it just kind of feels a little bit safer, because for me, and this could just be like me and the stuff that me and my therapist need to work through, for me, it's been a lot of like not enough ism I don't feel enough of this, or enough of that, or this constant pressure to feel like I have to prove that I'm black, or prove something, or demonstrate it in some way. And we live in a time where nobody these days is like, No, you're not. But when I was growing up, they were like that because so I lived in Alaska, but there was a six year period, five or six years, I guess we lived in Pittsburgh. And to me, geography matters. Brieanna, you talked about the difference between North Dakota and where you're at on the East Coast now. And for me, going to Pittsburgh was like whoa. Also very diverse, but not as accepting by anyone, by anyone, black folks or not. Wow, that's. And so it was an interest. Yeah, it was really, I was like, what is actually happening? And I think I was like, in fifth or sixth grade when we went there, so those years where you're starting to enter middle school, where Belonging Matters, like so much, 

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  15:15

yeah, for sure, it's interesting because I'm I think people think diversity automatically comes with inclusion, and it does not, because people bring those ideas with them about what it means to be this, that or the other. So here I have my friend group ranges, but I find, like you said, I find comfort and safety in groups of brown folks, black and brown folks, because I feel like when I'm with my, you know, my white friends, I sometimes feel tokenized. I feel like I'm like, you know, a comfortable friend. And then they, when people get close to you, they start to say things that are problematic and think because you don't present as, you know, quote, unquote, all the way black. Then they're like, oh, I can say this wild thing, and I am not the one for that, like I am not your palatable black friend, like I'm not the word. I was thinking of that word. I have no problem letting you know what time it is. And then people are shocked. They're like, Ooh, I didn't know you're one of those black people. Like, what is that? Do we need to unpack that conversation. And so I find frustration with people thinking that there is safety in the light skinnedness that I bring to the group, and then they're shocked and I'm like, you cannot have anti black rhetoric around me because you don't think I am that type of black person because of your limited scope of understanding of racial identity and presentation. 

Brieanna Hairston  16:44

Yeah, that kind of brings me back to to some different things. Like, even, like, in high school, I I too, like, would kind of like lean towards more hanging out with black and brown people when I was in high school. But even sometimes then, some of my black and brown friends would make comments about me, like, if I was wearing a student outfit that day, they would tell me, Oh, you're not dressed black today. Your outfit doesn't look like an outfit a black person would wear, or just something like that, from even my black friends, which was kind of hard, like, hard to hear, like I didn't know a black person dressed a certain way I'm I'm literally just wearing a shirt and, like, jeans or something, you know. And she would always comment on everything about me, and I just like, okay, maybe she really isn't that supportive of a friend to me, because she would always comment about my body or things I was wearing and stuff like that. And I just thought it was interesting coming from a black woman herself,

Shawna  17:34

yeah, because that goes back to like, what is blackness? Why are there brands of blackness? And also it's perpetuating stereotypes. Whenever you say, like, this isn't this or this isn't that. I have a really good friend. She, like, she keeps saying, we need to do a thing on what kind of black are you? Because I have a friend,  she was asking me about some some pop culture thing. And I was like, what year was it? Because here's the thing, if I was either in Alaska or out of the country, I probably didn't see it or, you know, got it late, or whatever. And there is no what Black is, what culture is. And culture can be totally dependent upon your geography. Look where you are, and look, when I was growing up, we didn't have the internet, you know, the trends and things traveled a lot more slowly. You got it if you had TV, if you had cable or whatever, you might catch a little something. If you had access to like MTV or something, you could see some trendy things. Otherwise, those trends traveled across the country very, very slowly, and these days, shoot tick tock you. By the time you see the one video and you send it to somebody else, they're like, I already seen it. You're like, okay, the trend is over. 

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  18:51

The older millennial in me is so tired. Like, you know, I'm from, I am from the days when you would, I record things on cassette tapes. Like you turn the radio on to record of the cassette tape so that you can have your favorite song to play. 

Shawna  19:06

This is two fingers because you have to hit play and record the same time. 

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  19:10

That's 100%. and to kind of echo what little bit you're saying, you know, my parents, God bless them, robbed me up at a lot of cultural experiences because, on top of being racialized as biracial. My parents were very devout Christian, so I could not listen to the radio. I couldn't watch MTV. My girl, I had Mariah Carey because... 

Shawna  19:30

No secular music for you. 

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  19:31

No, no secular music for me. Um, Mariah Carey because we because she's mixed. So I could listen to her. I could listen to like Ace of Base and New Kids on the Block because they were a cute little boy band. I had a sleeping bag and everything, right? But outside of that, so all the dances that everybody knows how to do, the Roger Rabbit, I don't know how to do that. I have no context of movies and all these things that my friends do that sometimes solidify the black experience for people, right, those cultural anecdotes that people. Those are the shared that shared identity. And so it's like, it adds a nuance for me into that conversation. So I show up and I identify as a biracial black person. And sometimes black folks are like, friend, you're a little bright to be black. And sometimes they're like, Oh no, you know the whole one drop rule thing, like you're one of us. And so as Brieanna was saying, it can be so jarring to say, I find safety in this place, but sometimes people in that place because of colorism and all these things that have been introduced as part of our culture by colonization, all that other stuff that still exists. And so your experience then can be marred by that, because it is meant to be an exclusionary tactic, and it worked. I have students like, you know, I taught primarily students from, um, underserved backgrounds, and I still am community with some of them today. So I'll take them to, like, a restaurant to go eat. And he'll be like, Why are you taking us all these white places? I'm like, this is just a place to eat. It was not a white establishment. 

Shawna  21:20

You know what that is true, Rachel, because whenever I was in like, high school, or, I guess, in middle school, early high school, but still, when I was in Pittsburgh, because we ended up going back to Anchorage, by the way we did our few years, we were like, we go back to the Pacific Northwest, but my later middle school, early high school years, you know when we would be hanging out. Also, fun fact, I went to a Christian school, so we came from all different parts of the county, or even different counties, to go to the swan, I think, whatever the radius was. And so when I would want to hang out with a friend, Oh, mom, so and so said I could come over, and my mom would be like, are they in a white neighborhood? And one day I was walking my dogs. This was around COVID time, when everyone was sort of inside, but people would take walks just to kind of get out of your house, right? So I was like, walking my dogs, and this is before I moved into the place I'm in right now. And I realized I was walking, and I was like, I'm in a white neighborhood. It was really interesting to have that realization, because to me, now it's just a neighborhood, but when you know the history of segregation in residential areas and redlining, yes, and I also know that there are certain places I don't know if you know about sundown towns, Brieanna, but even though there aren't official sundown towns, there's still some counties you don't drive through. 

Brieanna Hairston  22:47

I can definitely understand that, like I've had the chance to travel to some areas that have had historically different types of plantations in them, I guess. And just seeing that type of area is a lot different than the Eastern there's a lot more animosity maybe towards biracial and black people there than where I live now, and I think that a lot of the times, people maybe turn on each other within those neighborhoods, even if they do look similar, I feel like they're untrusting of one another, even if they are from similar backgrounds, just growing up in an area where a lot of people are maybe out to get them, is what I noticed within that area, so untrusting of each other, that's kind of what I noticed in even in those really small towns, that people are hurting each other. They're at really high rates. But why is that? Even if you look like your neighbor, they're still going willing to hurt them, basically, which I thought that they should band together and support one another, build up their community, because a lot of their communities are also suffering. And, you know, they have lack of jobs out that way. They have maybe not a lot of access to healthy types of food, and a lot of businesses end up going into foreclosure or disclosing down because they don't have the sense of community, is what I noticed. They don't support each other 

Shawna  24:09

well. I mean, I guess in some cases, whenever there is economic issues in a given area, like when you talk about food deserts and things like that, you go back to the basics, and it's survival for number one, and maybe community has to come later. Sadly, again, when you're in a larger sort of metropolitan area, you do tend to be around people who come from lots of places, who are not always but more than some places accepting. And gosh, Rachel, you said that thing, diversity does not mean that there's inclusion, right? So that's another thing to keep in mind. But then maybe once you're out of these areas, then you know, I guess you don't know what you'll find in a community, so

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  24:52

 it's and it's super frustrating, because you have this idea of what America is supposed to be, right? I don't like when people use the terminology. Melting Pot, because that means it's full assimilation. I love the salad bowl, like we can all be in the bowl, and we have our respective identities and so forth. And then coming from a place you know, that have different ideas about how we interact with each other, and I moved to Florida for a year way back when, and I had no idea that, you know, like, sundown towns were even a thing. And so my partner at the time and I were traveling from, I think it was like Tampa to Jacksonville or something. And one of my friends who had lived there, she said, you will be going through, like, some sundown towns you like, make sure you are in a hotel or someplace when it gets dark. And this was in, like, I don't like, not maybe like, 2015 2016 2017 timeframe, like in the year of our Lord 2024 Why is this still happening? Right? But then when you look at how the time frame of like civil rights and when those things actually happen, we're looking like within the past, what 60 years like within people's lifetime. And so those ideas don't go away with legislation. Those ideas don't go away with, you know, just putting more people that are ethically diverse in a place those things permeate. You know, people's lived realities and their you know, the way they interact with each other. And it takes generations of new ideas to supersede that. And it's frustrating, because we want things like equity to be fast, because, like, we have earned it and we deserve it, but it just is not moving as quickly as we need it to be.

Shawna  26:31

I want to pivot us back earlier. Brieanna, you were talking about the different ways that people sort of racialize you, and they are, like, I look in a mirror and I do not see that. You know, you asked a question that in my start here episode for the show, I asked listeners to at least check out that episode, I talk about the different questions and what are you is the first question. I recently had a conversation with somebody super cool, but I was talking about what I do and where my research is in this area of racial ambiguity and multiracial experiences. And she then asked me, Do you mind telling me what your ethnic background is? And I said No, I don't mind it. But I said, the thing is, I'm so used to being asked, and it's part of the work that I do, that it's not like an offensive thing to me. Plus, I know a lot of people just, they're just so curious. I wonder, like, how you feel about that? What does that feel like to you when people ask about your background? 

Brieanna Hairston  27:27

To me, like when I was younger, it used to be, like, a lot more different to me. Like that feeling when they had asked me made me sometimes more uncomfortable, just because I was just growing up and finding my own comfort and my own identity as a child, I guess, but now as an adult, I'm a lot more comfortable in my own identity, and I'm fine with people asking me, as long as it's in a respectful way, you know, like, I don't want them to be coming from a negative place or a place of darkness when they're asking about my background just to make fun of me or to crack a joke. You know what I mean? Because I've also gotten a lot of people not knowing I'm black, cracking racist black jokes in front of me. And then I say, Oh, I'm black. I don't laugh. I you know, I tell them I'm black, that's not funny to me. And then they look at me and say, Oh, I thought you were Latina. That's always their response, as if that's okay joke, yeah, that's always their response. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, like, even if I was, it's still not appropriate to say that to somebody, you know, but for the most part, if they're respectful, you feel perfectly comfortable. Yeah, I'm completely open about my background. If they want to learn more about who I am as a person or where I come from, as long as they're just doing it out of, you know, curiosity with a good heart, then I'm totally fine with them, because most of the time they are curious to learn, and they do want to know more about it, because they maybe haven't had that kind of exposure, especially a lot of my international classmates as well, that they made that a comment to me, that they would love to learn more about American history, American culture, and that would include both native and African American culture. Sure, they didn't specifically bring that up to me that they wish that the school did offer more of that kind of stuff. Because coming from a lot of them come from India, for example, and a lot of my Indian classmates have brought up that they wish that they could learn more about African American and Native American culture, specifically.

Shawna  29:17

Yeah, people sometimes ask once I've had the conversation. Well, how, how should I ask? So I'm gonna pose it to you too. What can a person say, or what's the respectful way to ask if they're going to ask?

Brieanna Hairston  29:31

I think that when they ask, I think maybe what, what is your ethnic background is what they typically would ask. Maybe, like, instead of, what are you? Because that's, again, so vague, like, Oh, I'm American. That would be my response to that question. 

Shawna  29:43

I also think it's dehumanizing to say, what are you but yeah, that's 

Brieanna Hairston  29:47

Oh, you're so or you're so exotic. I hate hearing that term as well. I don't like to be labeled as exotic, because, really, my ancestors have been in America probably longer than a lot of their ancestors have. You know what I mean? So if, if you're me, anyone's more exotic? It's probably not me, you know what I mean. So I'm just like, I don't like to be called exotic or termed as that, because it kind of reminds me of maybe an exotic animal, which I'm not. So I don't like being termed as that. I think that was my favorite moment in the interview. So sweetly. But that's really how I feel. Like my ancestors have been in America for a long time. You know what I mean? Like, yes, ma'am, I'm just as American as anybody else. 

Shawna  30:28

So I loved that so much. That's very that's very interesting.

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  30:34

Yeah, I'm with you on that period.

Brieanna Hairston  30:39

Yeah, it's like, unless you're maybe Native American, then aren't we all kind of exotic in our own way? Like, say that part for the people in the back, right?

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  30:48

That was so, yeah, I'm with Brieanna on that one. You know, I have students, you know, young people that'll say that. Because, again, there's this confusion between, like, they have an idea of what it means to present a certain way racially. And so if I don't fit into that, they'd be like, well, you know, what are you? And so then I'll talk them through. Maybe the best way to ask that is like, what is your hair, your heritage, your ethnic background, if you tell me more about your culture or something like that, because what are you? Is demeaning in many ways, like you say we're not, you know, zoo animals, right? And in particular, as I said before, like, out here in these dating streets, it is no bueno. 

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  31:26

And like, men love to ask that question. They love to be like, well, what are you? You're so exotic, like Brieanna said, and I am like, I am regular, and I do not appreciate you putting me on this weird pedestal that is rooted in some sort of, like, anti blackness, right? Like I because that's what it is, that is it, is it, is 100% that. And then they'll think, you know, well, I don't, I've had men say to me things like, why don't date, you know, like black girls, but like, you're not like those. 

Shawna  31:56

I shouldn't interrupt you, but I'm assuming you're talking about black men? 

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  31:58

of course, whom I dearly in my spirit. Love so much. But that whole thing we talked about colorism is rooted in sort of this and massaging all these other things. So it's frustrating, because it's like you are trying to put down, you know, other black women by elevating someone that looks like me, basing on just my skin tone alone, no knowing, nothing about me knowing other than my skin tone. And again, I'm not the one like I'm I'm not interested in you anymore because I'm not the one that's going to allow you codify your anti blackness and then fetishize light skinned women by virtue of just our skin tone. And that, folks, is how we use our privilege. If you didn't know, with ways to tell these people. No, you may not. You're I am not a safe space for your an insert whatever raggedy term that person is being at that time. 

Brieanna Hairston  32:48

Something else that I kind of wanted to comment on too was that you mentioned that your mother was black and your father was white. So that also is something that people often bring up to me when I do tell them that I identify as half black and half white. Some for some reason, the second follow up question is always, Is your father a mother black or white? And then they always say, I assume your mother's white, your father's black. So did you ever get that? A lot growing up or people perceive the relationship of a white woman and a black man differently than a black woman and a white man. I've always noticed that as well, growing it 

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  33:21

100% Brieanna, people are always like, oh, so your mom's a white lady and like, Absolutely not. She is a black and indigenous woman, like we have native to in our family. So and then it's just like the deer in the headlights, like, it's like disrupting these stereotypes of what an interracial relationship is. 

Shawna  33:39

I find that so interesting, because you all tell me what you think about this. I feel like it's better to I cannot say thisnation. It's on tick tock. You know what I'm saying? TikTok. And I yeah, I think so she knows where I'm going. This whole black woman effect, before you dated a black woman, you looked like this, or then there's not like a black man effect too. I've seen, Oh, I haven't seen this where the white women are like, how putting the pictures before, you know, when they got them a black man which, okay, go offering. But what do you think about that? I think people truly underestimate the feeling that comes with seeing your situation or your identity represented. Because I feel like, oh, like we can be our authentic selves and be loved by anyone and not have this fear, like I can't be loved by this person or this person with this person just because of who I am. So I'm starting to see this change more, where there's more black women and other and not just white men, like all the men, 

Brieanna Hairston  34:38

I guess that that's always a question too, that I always, um, that I always think is important to ask, is like, does representation matter? And I always think that yes, of course it does. But a lot of people don't seem to think that that represent, you know, the representation of black people and in the media or in certain things that historically, they haven't been represented in, I think is important to people. And just for that reason, seeing people owning it, loving it, and being their true self, I think is important for people to see. So I think that that's that it's awesome that more and more people are are able to feel comfortable and date outside of their race and not feel like they have that stigma that a lot of times came along with it maybe 40 years ago. So 40,

Shawna  35:23

20...15..10..., 

Brieanna Hairston  35:24

yeah,

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  35:25

20 minutes ago, yeah, 

Brieanna Hairston  35:28

10 minutes ago, yeah, but yeah, I  think representation is a huge important piece, and it's great to see that people are starting to finally just do it and be themselves. 

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  35:39

So yeah, I love that perspective. So the the TikTok trend that we're talking about, these white men, you know, were presenting a certain way, and then they got with a black woman, and, you know, leveled up in many ways. And so it's cute. And again, my father is white, and we had tons of conversation about, like, why don't you bring home white men? Yeah, I have tried it a couple of times, and I had a very jarring experience with a white man who I was dating. And we went to, like, a hibachi, you know how everybody's sitting there, it's like this communal style thing, which I do not like, and the man tries to wear the shrimp in your mouth. Also don't like that. So we're sitting there, and, you know, I'm, you know, the dates I'm getting I did the hair, the makeup, the dress, all the things, and we leave out of there. And this man was like, Did you see that? You know, black man looking at you? And I was like, that's what they do, whatever. And he's like, yeah. I was so. I was so, like, proud because, like, I had one of theirs, I had one of their women. And I was like, friend, now I need to call an Uber to get home.

36:42

Fetishization piece, right? So it's like, what in you wants to get a leg up on a man you don't even know. 

Shawna  36:49

Also, I'd be like, I'm not a trading card. 

Rachel Sadler (she/her)  36:51

I'm not, am I a Pokemon? Right? Like, what? I had one? I was proud because I got one. Yeah, no. And then there was all of the, you know, the other stereotypical questions that come along with certain endowments of certain people in certain racial groups, male in particular. And he was like, very insecure about that. And so I was like, you know, you have a lot to unpack within yourself number one, but then this whole racial dynamic, I am not the one to unpack that with you, and so that that really kind of scarred my experience with and it wasn't like again. So we've got Ricky back at 12. Remember that? Let's circle back Ricky. Mom came out in her bathrobe. It was like, No, thank you, Rachel. And then throughout the years, these experiences happened, and that was in like, my 20s, and just recently, I was like, All right, maybe, you know, I watched Love is blind. Lauren and Cameron were really cute. They were like the Pioneer couple. Cameron was a delightful, adorable white man, and Lauren was a gorgeous, you know, very successful black woman. And it was like, the standard for love is blind. I am a real TV junkie friends. And then we even tried to get to the pinnacle of that, and it just like doesn't exist. But because Cameron is a very aware type of white man, and very aware of his privilege and identity, and he does not seem to fetishize his wife. He seems to love her, yeah, for who she is, you know. And I think sometimes it's difficult for some white folks to truly embody that because of how we have been indoctrinated with racism and racialization in our country and dating men period right now is a lot. So adding that layer to it, I am tired, Brieanna, you are very young, and you have a lot of time and a lot of patience. I, in my middle age, do not, oh, as many barriers I can take away from just tolerating men folk. I'm at a point now where I don't know if that is that's gonna be my ministry, to be honest. 

Shawna  38:57

Oh, you cracked me up. Wow, this has been a good conversation. Brieanna, is there anything that you just want folks to know either about you or your experience before we close? 

Brieanna Hairston  39:23

Well, I guess I'm happy with who I am, and I've comfortable with my identity. Growing up, I wasn't as comfortable with it. I used to get bullied a lot because I know I look different to other students, so that really was hard for me growing up. But currently I love my curly hair. I just have it straight right now because I just got it cut. But usually I always represent the curly hair, because growing up, I used to straighten it every single day in high school because people used to bully me for it, but I finally learned to love the curls and embrace it. So for me, I'm happy with who I am now. So 

Shawna  39:54

I love that. I love that. Yeah, I love that. Well, thank you so much for spending this. Time with us and sharing your thoughts and your experiences. I'm glad that we could have you on Yeah, I think every single one of these conversations reaches somebody. Somebody can relate to them, so thanks for contributing. 

Brieanna Hairston  40:13

Yeah, no problem. I learned a lot of stuff that I had no idea about both of you.

40:18

Well, listen, I just want to give a quick little shout out for Brieanna, because, like, you were finishing up your MBA, and you're gonna be ready to share your talents with somebody out there. Yes, yeah, yeah, I'm looking into, I'm going into marketing. I like a lot of product management and social media, so I'm always open to connections if y'all need an amazing marketer, social media manager, hey, you should contact Brieanna. So thank you. This was so great. Thank you, you guys. I appreciate it absolutely.

Shawna  41:10

You know, these conversations never get old. To me, even with all of the episodes we've had, all of the guests that we've met and had conversations with, there's always some new perspective or angle to consider. Yeah, this episode is no different for me, so I appreciate Brieanna for sharing her time and her insights with us. Don't forget you can also watch our episodes from Season Five on YouTube, and don't forget to follow on Instagram, or you can find other posts and be part of the conversation there. Speaking of being part of the conversation, don't forget, there's a link in the show notes where you can direct message us if you have questions, suggestions, thoughts, you just want to contribute that way, please do. I love that you're part of the conversation, and I am so excited about my upcoming book, I do hope that you'll continue to follow those updates. And as a matter of fact, you can go to trueculture consulting.com put your email address in, and I'll put you on the update list, and that way, you'll have all the latest news, including when the book is launched. I think I might actually start posting a little bit about this journey on my Instagram page. That's a good reason for you to follow as well. I am learning so much more about myself and my identity as I go through this process. It would be great to have you join me for that too. In the meantime, stay curious, stay connected and keep embracing your true colors. Spread the Love y'all. I'll talk to you soon. You

Outro  42:53

You've been listening to Our True Colors.