In this episode, we spoke with Jessica Noll, who is a Ph.D. candidate at Helmut Schmidt University in Hamburg, Germany. From October 2017 to May 2018, she was a visiting research fellow at the DC think tank the Project on Middle East Democracy and in February 2019 published a research study titled Fighting Corruption or Protecting the Regime? Her study examined the history of anti-corruption drives and institutions in Egypt. In our talk, Jessica explains how corruption takes root in societies and the underlying motivations of some regimes when launching anti-corruption campaigns or establishing anti-corruption bodies.
In this episode, we spoke with Jessica Noll, who is a Ph.D. candidate at Helmut Schmidt University in Hamburg, Germany. From October 2017 to May 2018, she was a visiting research fellow at the DC think tank the Project on Middle East Democracy and in February 2019 published a research study titled Fighting Corruption or Protecting the Regime? Her study examined the history of anti-corruption drives and institutions in Egypt. In our talk, Jessica explains how corruption takes root in societies and the underlying motivations of some regimes when launching anti-corruption campaigns or establishing anti-corruption bodies.
spk_0: 0:00
Welcome to Risk Watch, a podcast that sheds light on emerging compliance and due diligence issues. I'm your host. Alex Horne. Wristwatch is brought to you by V. Check Global business to business provider of due diligence and background check investigations with offices in Los Angeles, New York, Washington, D. C. In Boston, learn more about how be checking help solve your due diligence needs. You can visit our website at b check global dot com In this episode of the podcast, I spoke with Jessica Knoll, who's a PhD candidate at Helmet Schmidt University in Hamburg, Germany. Her research focuses on the political and economic power of the military in Egypt from October 2017 to May 2018. She's a visiting research fellow at the D. C think tank. The Project on Middle East Democracy in February 2019 published a research study titled Fighting Corruption or Protecting the Regime, which exam in the history of anti corruption drives and institutions in Egypt. In this episode, we examine how corruption takes ruin societies and the underlying motivations of authoritarian governments when launching anti corruption campaigns or establishing anti corruption bodies at a great time. Speaking with her and I hope you enjoy the show and we're life. I'm glad we finally were able to make this happen. And thanks for joining us. Thanks for having lied. So back in February 2019 the project on Middle East Democracy, which is Ah D. C. Think tank, published your report Fighting corruption or Protecting the Regime, Egypt's Administrative Control Authority. And in that report, you take a detailed look at the history of corruption in that country and also examine its main anti corruption body, the Administrative Control Authority. So what drew you to to explore that topic?
spk_1: 1:33
So it was actually in 2009 when I was in Egypt, I was studying there, the Arab language, steering my metro program. I was studying in Arab Islamic culture studies and political signs, and I was doing on my writing and researching my assurance thesis at the time in Egypt. And it was about Hosni Mubarak, president at the time and how he has had stayed in power for nearly 30 years, and I wanted to understand, like, what were his power strategies at the time? And there was some reforms he had undertaken in the two thousands, and there was some kind of political openings, more political opponents actually entered the parliament. And so I wanted to understand. You know why he had adapted the political system to stay in power. How yet on this and as part of this I was also doing some interviews and one of my interview partners said to me, You know what? If you want to understand the power explosion and Egypt, you need to also focus on the military. You did. You can't leave it. Alice and I was a little bit surprised by his aunt's on which. But he said to me, although I knew that Egypt had been a military or head, there was a military coup in 1952 and also President Mubarak with on the armed forces he was serving as a pilot, But the military and the two thousand's was like not at central political stage. It was maybe, you know, in the hysterics, so I was surprised. But I was also interested, so I was like, Okay, there's like a secret power he I don't know much about. And so as my subsequent interview about the role of the military and this person said to me. I can't talk about this in the office. So it was like a Is it afraid that's you know, I might have Yeah. Said something wrong. Ah naively asked him something and so I got my interested in the military. But at that time I was also very reluctant to actually do further research. And then the Arab spring happened. I'm like a year. You later just uprising that eventually toppled President Mubarak. And then the secret power the forces actually took over power. It was the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces sketch that took over power after Mubarak left office and rule the country for a year and 1/2. And then I was in my master program. So I studied the role of the military doing the uprisings both in Egypt and and Syria. I was comparing the two countries on DDE. Then another two years later, there was I mean, it was President Mohamed Morsi, who was elected president in 2012 and he was troubled on Lee after one year in office by the armed forces as well. So I was like, Okay, and I really need to know more about the armed forces. And this was the beginning of my PhD project in which I studied these power strategies off the military and us one power one. Our strategy is corruption. And I was starting this in my PhD. And as you said, I was a research fellow, a poem, it and they. I developed this idea to look about the more detailed at this corruption Asian Steve, because it has become more visible on the current president as the fighter has C. C's. I wanted to know, Has he changed the role of this agency because it has been established under on the coming up the NASA in the sixties? Is he using it in a different way? And I just wanted to understand more about corruption, and that was the background story off this paper.
spk_0: 5:32
So when you decided to dive into this, how difficult was it for you to find the information you needed and speak with the people that that could give you the information that you were gonna build your study off?
spk_1: 5:42
It was pretty difficult because I was not. I mean, I was first not in Egypt at the time. I actually decided to do not any more fieldwork in Egypt, and so was trying to gather as much information as I could from outside the country. So it first started, like the newspaper articles that I found on this administrative control authority, just to get an idea. What is the regime actually releasing about this agency? In addition to that, I was looking at the laws that it's regulating this authority, and I was trying to talk with as much people as possible that help have published on this agency. It before that were experts on the country that, you know, could give me a better understanding of what this authority is actually doing. Andi was also talking with Egyptians and, you know, ask them to tell me more about the everyday experience when it comes to corruption to get an idea. So this I think these for the maze sources in addition to the literature on authoritarian resilience. So I also wanted to understand, like generally, how has also attained rulers using corruption and anti corruption to stay in power. With that in mind, I could like, draw certain conclusions on, you know,
spk_0: 7:04
when you started examining the more general patterns of how corrupt regimes use corruption to stay in power or how they utilize these anti corruption drives to front of what it means. But, I mean, how quickly did you start picking up on these patterns that aren't just in one country but kind of are found across
spk_1: 7:22
the board? As soon as you understand the logic? I think behind corruptions, they're always suspicious when you see like, reads something or you're like, always thinking if there's a corruption case, for example, in Egypt, there's a very prominent one, often Agriculture Minister. So I always thought, like, Okay, what's the actual reason why this person is, you know, charged with corruption? I'm always, Yeah, I was trying to find the two reasons, if you want, like in this case in the cave ins Agriculture Minister There was some kind of relations to the former Mubarak regime, so it could have been away for the Sisi regime to actually go against, like former networks on a corruption. That's what example
spk_0: 8:11
so related to that. You start your study off by stating that the primary goal of authoritarian rulers is a stay in power, and corruption is one of the many means they used to do so. So how does cultivating corruption help? These regimes maintain their grip on power
spk_1: 8:28
so the 10 rulers cannot stay in power by themselves. So they always need some form off support and the support coalition that eventually backs his power. And this considers, on one hand, the elite he's and a ruling I lied and also lower officials and like one aim off another terrible is to actually make this person loyal to him. And corruption can be kind of the glue between the authoritarian ruler and the subordinate person. Be it this person could be a member of the elite or lower levels official. So and also it tears worth creates like a new network off privilege. And he provides, for example, someone loyalists of certain position in his regime and the Cabinet, for example, or he gives him a posed in a public company or public body. And this person is loyalist has the possibility to enrich themselves. He has, like, you know, access to resources, maybe also access to other privileges like land, which the person can use for for his or her own private gains, and the authoritarian rulers allows the's er Bridgeman and then kind of can use this against the person if the person falls out of line. So there's come kind off the pendency between these two persons. And this is as I said, you know, it's also the case for lower level officials. For example, they're getting a job in the state bureaucracy. They have a celery, et cetera, but often and this is also the case in Egypt, the salary is not enough s o. They also allow privates to happen. And so the ruling allows these embezzlements, or perhaps to heaven, and then don't investigate them. So the official, the in the bar casinos all I can do this. Andi, I need this money. But I can, you know, only do this as long as I follow the patronage of the authoritarian ruler. And in the case of Egypt, if you go back to when the military regime you have the regime after day was remaining established in the 19 fifties 19 sixties, this ruling coalition was mainly composed off people from the armed forces. So I'm gonna up. The NASA was a member of the three offices that staged a coup against the monarchy and the old regime and S O. He needed also to include his military fellows into the regime. So he put them in strategic posts in the cabinet, for example. And at the same time, he also needed to, you know, needed a broader support base and hey allowed. Or he actually guaranteed that every university graduate got a job in the state bureaucracy, which then, you know, increased dramatically. So these university graduates that couldn't get a job in the private sector because it wasn't bigger than after system. Please. You know, I got a job. They didn't demonstrate on the streets. They were supporting NASA, and the regime then could somehow control thes university group move, you know, then that's working. So I
spk_0: 12:04
read something. He was a book I'd read on Nassir that he so he actually led a pretty modest lifestyle. And I thought I heard something that he was. I mean, he was against corruption to some degree, and he has stepped in, and then his government established this anti corruption body. The A C A. Like it. You can talk about that. I mean, was that was he anti corruption from one side and then on the other side had to allow it degree. How does that how does that work?
spk_1: 12:28
I think that's pretty much summarizes. That's I think, that he was against you spoke out against the corrupt. That's regime, that his that he and his military palace couple And that was certainly there was some truth to it, because at the time, doing I mean, the main political figures were the monarch and the land owners at the time. And they were also highly present in this, a bureaucracy that the times, the loyalists off the land owners were working there. And it was, you know, corrupted regime and NASA and his, you know, the whole military coup plotters were actually not part of this new, no netbook of privilege that was, you know, run by the King. So of course he spoke up against these corrupted officials Also still give some the legitimacy tow their own power crap or through his own power grabs is okay. I go against the corrupted people, and it was certainly very popular to a certain extent, you know, among those peoples that were also part of this notebook of privilege. So he included just people that have been excluded like middle class people and university graduates into his regime. By allowing also these corrections, he just changed the snap of privilege if she wants.
spk_0: 13:57
So it's interesting that that corrupt regimes around the world, whether it's in the Middle East or in Latin America or other places, they utilize corruption to maintain their grip on power. But it's kind of a double edged sword, just like we talked about. Some point there will be. Either the people will turn against the government or a certain core of of the military, for instance, like with Nassir, will rise up and overthrow the government. So it seems like it's a short sighted policy. So I mean, what's the logic behind it? Do you feel like it's so entrenched in in the system in the culture of these countries that it's just a way of life? It doesn't even it doesn't come into their mind that at some point it's gonna turn on them.
spk_1: 14:38
I think they know that it's turning against that. One added can turn against them because, you know, history has actually shown this every times that it can. But I would say that the systems are so difficult to change that, you know, it's the kind of the only way is to just go, you know, trying to work with the system that is already there. I mean, it would need a lot off Resource is to actually change this whole system and also not off knowledge, et cetera. And I mean the problem, certainly an authoritarian regimes is the moment where they don't mean they don't come to power, usually authoritarian rulers in a democratic way. So they always have to fear that they also toppled in and non democratic way and have to fear military cool. So they have to, you know, he used to make a CZ. You know, academics used to say they have to make a crew proofed, and actually, you know, allowing corruption. Also in particular for military officers, is a coup proving strategy. So
spk_0: 15:49
not all countries in which corruption is common could be described as authoritarian or are carrying. But do weak institutions and a culture of corruption paved the way for authoritarian regimes.
spk_1: 16:03
I think it's, I mean, if you have an institution that is highly professional, highly organized and you know there's a rule of law and formal regulations, et cetera. And also, of course, the judiciary system that actually punishes any wrongdoing. Then off course C systems are less likely to be corrupt, although it captures us the problem. Democratic. Same. But certainly in cultures such as Egypt, well so, like, personal relations are so important or so informal contacts on the the bureaucracy. I mean this culture that has been evolved over decades off yeah, giving a favor and accept telling tribes giving private etcetera. So it's definitely a meta, um, how institutions are organized, whether they have professionally or rather organized along patrimony lines. If you want, it
spk_0: 17:06
s o to kind of get into the main focus of your study. Anti corruption drives or anti corruption bodies that are set up as one of the many tools of corrupt governments are corrupt regimes. You know, we've seen this in Saudi Arabia. We've seen it in Pakistan, Egypt, many different countries around the world. But I'd like it even touch on what are the main motivations for these governments and launching an anti corruption campaign.
spk_1: 17:32
Earlier, I spoke about corruption as ah you know, power strategy, and it can be considered as kind. Some form of carrots for the supporting coalition, as I was saying on anti corruption campaign, is the stick. Also, authoritarians with us cannot only allow corruption to flourish. They also have to manage it, sort off. They have to make sure that these people that that they just rich themselves, also follow the line off the ream on. And then anti corruption campaigns first can just, you know, controls. Actually, this corruption and anti corruption agency commonly has the possibility to monitor to investigate corruption was a bureaucracy in public bodies stayed cos maybe s so they can monitor these some state officials that always have to fear that they know I might be uncovered. They can secretly put pressure on people on the start of anti corruption agency can secretly put pressure on people, but it can also bring corruption charges against people in the public. And this can also function as a way to so other peoples in the network where the red lines are. So if one sees okay, there's one person who has enriched himself a little bit too much on other people in this bar. Cassie. Seaside, you. No, no, it's okay. There's a certain limit on limitation. And so it's to scare everybody often to actually draw on your lines every belonging like you. Yeah, signs within this next book of privilege, this is certainly a very important, um, points another is that, um they can actually use anti corruption campaigns to portray the themselves as reformers in the public eye. Maybe slightly touched on this when we talked about NASA. I'm so far kangaroos can actually appease the public. That nose, as you rightly said. I mean, everybody knows corruption is part of the system, and there's a lot of people suffering from it and in particular, those that are not part of these networks. And, you know, from time to time that demonstration such as the uprising in 2011. A lot of people at the time were sentenced rating against across lease. So is when then you also retired rulers come to power. Hey, can use it as, ah, you know, public measure a piece mint mega to show. I'm actually going now again, corruption. I'm doing something. I'm I'm very active in this regard while at the same time hey can use it to actually go against opponents. Maybe people from the old. I lead from the old power networks, and we have seen those actually, in Egypt with every president, every president at the beginning, office time in office actually stated, Oh, I will reform the Styx prophecy. I will become active and they had always have been some high level cases. But most of them are. These cases often happens. People that had been loyal to the former president of Temple. And does it also the case into Saudi Arabia, for example, suddenly,
spk_0: 21:16
and what about when it comes to attracting foreign aid or foreign investments?
spk_1: 21:21
That's certainly another motor for 30 10 less in particular. In the case of Egypt, it's certainly little bit different with countries such a Saudi Arabia. But evil has attracted actually lot off international support with anti corruption campaigns. So the international organizations such as the World Bank, you and organizations that support and seeded campaign and, you know, technical assistance way example and Egypt can use those systems first because you know, provides them with additional money or with additional resource is I mean, it can improve maybe their skills and technical capabilities, and I can also you know you looked Thio on these assistants. This gives it some form of credibility to the anti corruption campaigns of the Egyptian regime. Can say, you know the music, then say OK, we wear getting all this international money on assistance and no, we're very serious about fighting corruption. And they the Egyptian regime needs to portray it as a reformer and shows that it is working against corruption to coast, as we were mentioning in the second part of your questions. And it has been very needed, how it's needed, international support. So some international finance institutions, but also as best friends in the country through the wall on your grade, has some very, very high. And there's not enough money, you know, coming from the country itself. So they need international investors. And they, I mean, this is investors always, of course, have to I can't have to make sure I don't need to know whether you know they have toe hell corrupt. The system actually is thin. Agency. The AI was actually also been involved in facilitating investment in Egypt. So voice samples is one of my interviews. I hear that one investor actually got help from this agency to get a license to do business in Egypt this'll agency, which is strictly not you know, what anti corruption agency would actually do. But in this case, this agency was helping Thio facilitate international investments. So
spk_0: 24:06
when it comes to assessing an anti corruption body, used chances of success or if it's assess whether it's it's tainted, what are some obvious things to look out for from anything from you who's in charge to transparency to center?
spk_1: 24:24
Yeah, I think you mentioned you just mentioned the two most important aspect of first. Like how close is this anti corruption agency linked through the ruling regimes and in the case of Egypt and very closely connected to the ruling regime, which is like essentially ruling by military officers, the current president of the Texas Easy as coming from the president, as has been president one years? And this agency, the A. C A, has also close connections through the UN forces. So all its heads have been coming on the military upon the intelligence on this and also staff my must. But it's not very independent from the Booth Power Center. Also, because the president in the case of Egypt is actually pointing the head. So I mean, you know, clearly not independent. And in addition, they get these agency guess machine needs to work in a trance hand way. And this is also not the case with the a c a N d. Just published. This puts. It's not, you know, the information that you get from the website, but they do have is it's not much. I mean, you don't even know how many people work there. For example, so simple informations are not available, and it's not clear why they go, you know, against some people by they leave out others totally entrance parents on what criteria of investigations are etcetera. So the agency's yeah, neither transparent nor impartial.
spk_0: 26:37
And it's like sometimes governments will establish several different agencies, it of overlapping responsibilities. And I'd like it. You can talk about how how that can create the appearance is progress, but it's really weakening everybody involved.
spk_1: 26:56
You're right, although I 10 rules can actually is tempers various controls, agencies that then balance each other's and can actually you know the authority. An injury can use these different agency as they need it also give you an example in the case of either. What NASA has been establishing was not only this administrative control US are itching to monitor the state officials. He was also as everything the central auditing organizations that was had a similar task, a za times and so he could, you know, use thes agencies has needed that thes agency seven You know, also competing with each other if you want, has been repeating past overlapping Taft and I think in the case of Egypt, it's also necessary to include to think about, like other intelligence agencies within the military, like the military intelligence, for example, in the military has economic activities, and we haven't talked about this, But the military also contains with logic thing business operations. It has its own in a military agency that monitors these activities. And then there's also the general intelligence and intelligence and a discerning schism minister material. Even authoritarian ruler would only one such an agency. He would totally rely on this. Agent Seaver, you know, as he has several I didn't see it can actually now, um, first and large scope off the controls and can also make sure that these agencies I could somehow, as I said, counterbalance each other and make sure that none of these agencies to come too powerful and often you know, they also tiny bigger could also put like rivals in there like putting them in power so that they all like cultivating.
spk_0: 29:18
So going back to Mohamed Morsi and you touch on his his short presidency in your study. But what makes him interesting in this context is that the Muslim Brotherhood was strongly opposed to corruption and act. Imagine when he came to power that that was probably I'm on top of his agenda. Did he ever really stand a chance at rooting out corruption in the country's?
spk_1: 29:43
I don't think he had because his time in office was simply too short. I mean, as it's surprising that someone like climate mousy and the Muslims where you know spoken were sticking up against the corrupt regime because they were also part of this network of privilege from Mubarak. I mean from the opposition party. It's totally logic to, you know, speak up against corruption. And he was taking certainly some measures for an anti corruption measures. Some he was strengthening the central auditing our organization I was just mentioning and the Central Auditing Organisation was first when it was established. Also, if I remember correctly, I'm closer to the military. I didn't look at it specifically, but then, over time, I think it was understood Dodge on Mubarak it was more is became closer to the judiciary. The mercy all suppose a very prominent judge there will be spoke up since public about against corruption such as his tried Lex so things. But in the end, like his time in office, was simply to show or actually show whether, you know, he could have been successful.
spk_0: 31:07
But even, I mean, there's the Morsi example shows and this goes across the board in other countries also. But rooting out corrupt institutions and the culture of corruption can't be done overnight. But how does the government reverse course and truly fight corruption, whether whether there's regime change or not and then maintained it over the long term?
spk_1: 31:30
I think it's certainly the most important thing are the most employees Inspector, if on anti corruption campaign works or not, is the political will. So if there's a political will to change the system and the support that it needs, like from outside, for example, that also from inside to actually change something and is thin extras within the system. And they have a higher interest of in following the rules not, you know, following corrupt. They are the supporting, corrupt behavior. So I would seem some form of from material incentives, maybe s O in the case. I mean, if I think about state officials, for example, I think what the World Bank usually recommends is to pay them properly so that they don't really need to rely on tribes, for example. Then, in the case of Egypt and the problems, that is that the state doesn't have enough resources to pay. All these state officials would need to it decrease the number of state officials, which then means that it has less control over people. So but the end comes to the political world to having less control over the people. But it would also mean given power ways. And I think that some of the most importantly the are the most important step to actually have the political to change the political system in this regard and
spk_0: 33:06
local, this has been a fascinating discussion for anybody who's interested in reading your study. They can find it on the website of the project on on Middle East democracies, and I really appreciate you coming on the show and we should the best theme, the rest Thank
spk_1: 33:24
you very much for having me.