Under the Saddle - Phil Johnson - Sport Psychologist

In a special edition, Adam chats to Phil Johnson about a variety of equestrian related psychology  topics. From mental health and competition performance to how to deal with jumping bigger and removing mental blocks 

Follow Adam on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adamcromarty/

Transcript

spk_0:   0:00
riel. People really stories riel insight on all straight from the horse's mouth. If it's equestrian, it's on another installment of Under the Saddle with Adam Comet. A Welcome to Episode nine of Under the Saddle. I'm Adam Promise. See, I'm still a home in the UK The weather here still completely rubbish on No Corona Virus has all of us that travel a lot a little bit worried. But by the time this episode is released, I'm going to be a show in Florida. So it's not all bad. I'll be posting lots of forties and Instagram from the final North American League World Cup qualifier and also from a five star event. I'm heading to after that Dane in Palm Beach to make sure you follow me on instagram substrate to the podcast. And if you don't mind leaving a review as well, that would be great now. So far on the podcast, we've had some really interesting stories from bigger equestrian names but wanting to do something a little bit different for this episode. Mental health is such a serious issue, and I can't help thinking that you know the psychological well being of those involved with the class stream. Sports is sometimes overlooks, and there's a bit of an attitude of just go on with them. So wanted to chat with someone who specializes in sports performance psychology at him. Across Phil Johnson, nineties worked with some of the biggest names in loss of different sports. He's also lecturer Andan author as well. And I know some of you sent some questions and I did ask him about those. So make sure you listen right to the very end. How did you come into sport and just tell us a bit about You know, you're you're sort of career so far.

spk_1:   1:31
I became a sport and exercise psychologist before I became a clinical psychologist, but

spk_0:   1:37
I worked in

spk_1:   1:38
psychiatry before I became qualified clinical psychologist. What happened was when I first started to worsen sport. Many of the situations I found

spk_0:   1:49
myself in with athletes

spk_1:   1:51
was that they had the mental health issue,

spk_0:   1:53
okay,

spk_1:   1:54
and it just so happened that I had all the background in the qualifications to become a clinical psychologist as well, a sport in exile. So I'm Julie qualified in both a cz Well, it's all the other things that sports psychologists would do. I have a very strong background in mental health on, and trauma is in particular, including an injury. But I've done many different things from being a police officer. Social worker. I have a ski shop in the

spk_0:   2:23
equestrian center. You think you've been a busy guy? I have been yet. Why do you think we're started talking and thinking more about mental health? Do you think it's It's always been there. We don't recognize it, Or is it something in society? And the times we live in this kind of causing more cases?

spk_1:   2:47
The public display off and recognition of mental health issues, primarily in sports and in performing guard has shown itself demonstrably on dhe. Significantly.

spk_0:   3:01
How do you know whether you you have an actual can a medical mental health issue or whether you're just feeling a bit? Can a grumpy in a bit? Don't What's that was the kind of clear difference. Uh,

spk_1:   3:12
well, I I've nearly finished the book on saying goal of these things about winning ways in life, art and sports performance. Uh, and I I talk about overtraining, a burnout on their indicators of how how we become exhausted and glowing mood and so on and so forth, but not necessarily what we call clinically depressed.

spk_0:   3:38
Okay, And

spk_1:   3:40
so for us to become clinically depressed, where basically your life has to be so dysfunctional e disrupted by your feelings of depression, that you don't live a normal life. And that really is the definition off. Clinical depression in in the sense of anxiety, anxiety and arousal are mixed together. Uh, we talked about anxiety. We may consider anxiety than negative elements, but in fact, anxiety is essential to living because it's how the brain looks after us in terms of fight or flight responses to danger. But it's it's when we develop hyper around high levels of around or high levels of anxiety that overload the left hemisphere of the brain so that we cannot process information. And that's when we go into freeze. That's when we go into panic,

spk_0:   4:39
and

spk_1:   4:39
that's when we become fearful in a dysfunctional way that leads to inability on those freeze.

spk_0:   4:49
So how did this or horse sports compared to two other sports? If if that is a comparison to me, well, the first thing is, the

spk_1:   4:58
question is, is different to any of the sport because of the horses. And even though there are hundreds and thousands of writers, many in my experience haven't recognized that the holes is a mirror,

spk_0:   5:14
the human

spk_1:   5:15
behavior. When we when we think about the number of riders who complain about their horses and their colonies and they don't do this and we don't do that when we don't look at the issues of the rider, the rider is often projecting verbally and non verbally their feelings in their thoughts towards their horses and their mirroring back through their own behavior. So that's that's the first issue.

spk_0:   5:41
Okay,

spk_1:   5:41
the 2nd 1 is is the horses are unpredictable and they have their own psychology. So for an equestrian rider, there's a double challenge in the sense that they have to manage themselves as individuals on their horses with the AIDS that they have, of which the rains are significance,

spk_0:   6:07
the

spk_1:   6:07
saddle, the sitting, the positioning and then the various disciplines in which they're competing. And I can't say that I have worked in every equestrian disciplines, so I know the different challenges from foreign hands riding to endure it, riding to eventing and so on and so forth what what I would say in my experience of working with many riders, his injury and that question is, um is a dangerous sport, and that's because forces are big and strong and the things that we asked them to do have risk. So just this week, with a flat horse racing jockey on dhe on eventing Rider, I've been working with significant injury, significant humiliation and concussion on in one situation. The rider was nine years old when they were thrown by the holes, that foot stuck in the spirit and they would drag for 25 meters before it stopped

spk_0:   7:16
on.

spk_1:   7:16
That on. That traumatized him for the next 30 years

spk_0:   7:20
and is easy to say. I recover from that, you know, is that I can a lifelong process.

spk_1:   7:25
It's not so much a lifelong process, it's that. And then this rival the situation. They said, Well, I just got back onto the horse because that that's part of the culture. A bit like rugby, really. You know,

spk_0:   7:38
you get bashed in the face and you go, OK, I'll be back in the face. Let's carry on, boys. You've

spk_1:   7:43
actually got split down your face and you believe you like nobody tomorrow?

spk_0:   7:46
Yeah,

spk_1:   7:48
you know, So you know, part of the culture of the sport is influential on how we act in respond. So when when injury takes place with horses, it is often shocking. And it's shocking by one, the depth and the intensity of the injury and how it happens unexpectedly. So, for example, in 2000 seven, I wrote on article for horse and Hound on Rotational Fall on post traumatic stress disorder. Andi, if you pardon the pun for for the moment the floodgates opened and I was inundated with referrals 99% from women who not only had it who had got PTSD post traumatic stress disorder, but malted Lee. So writers often have deep trauma that they're not aware off because they were protective clothing, helmets and back back guards. And so one might feel that they're fully protected when in fact, the weight of the horse or the way that the hit of plants or, indeed, the humiliation of being dismounted in a major competition.

spk_0:   9:09
The

spk_1:   9:09
brain doesn't differentiate between those, so for riders, there are significantly additional demands upon them. Apart from dealing with all the equipment on the management in the training. You know, writers worked extraordinarily hard looking after their horses, maintained in keeping them fit training outside of competition.

spk_0:   9:38
You know, you're dealing with those highs and lows eyes the same in any sport. But it seems to be kind of really, really obvious in the equestrian sports. For whatever reason, they always say it's a leveler, you know, from a psychology points of view, it can probably quite damaging as well. Do you have any kind of tips for start dealing with highs and lows?

spk_1:   9:56
Well, the first the first point is to recognize

spk_0:   9:59
it, in other words, to

spk_1:   10:01
become aware of it. The brain on our activities are driven not by our conscious thoughts, as we think book subconsciously

spk_0:   10:11
on.

spk_1:   10:12
Therefore, there also may, too on, not necessarily as we expect or anticipate, so that when when I moved drops, for example, and we start to feel lower in mood. What I've discovered over the years is there is a direct relationship between energy, mood, motivation and performance. When we look at energy, first thing I do is look sleep.

spk_0:   10:40
Right

spk_1:   10:41
now, the recent research is showing significant percentage of our population experiencing sleep disturbance and think disturbance comes at three points. Really no, not be known to get off to sleep, which is referred to his initial insomnia a break in sleep, particularly during what we call Rance Lee, where the brain is filtering all the process information from the day's activities, and it's an important part of memory and resolving internal issues. And then the 3rd 1 is waking up early and not be named to get back to sleep so that people wake up fatigue and often the wake up, anxious and worried about what either happened the day before or what's going to happen in the future. In that day, and more than any group of people, questions worry days and weeks before a competition.

spk_0:   11:43
Thisted truth.

spk_1:   11:44
So first off, almost becoming aware of that your you feel down. As you say then the first thing is to think about your energy because it's your energy that's driving that mood. So as soon as we become excited about something, our mood lifts and we're ready and Wilmore available way want to do things? That's the motivation element of it. So we need to check sleep, energy, mood, hydration and nutrition and pain. One of the most important things I do in 60% of the clients that I work with is that their fatigue is caused by a lack of electrolyte replacement drinks. And that is when you're writing the horse even in the coldest weathers your heavenly, especially with all the layers of clothing that need to be war and indeed the happiness off them. And also because when you're outdoors, you've got a lot of wind resistance to cope with. And so you're using protective clothing to do that. And I know that from running the ski shop being

spk_0:   12:54
a Mountie, you know

spk_1:   12:56
all the different materials that we use, which are breathe herbal and repellent but nevertheless holding heating. So when you sweat beyond 30 minutes of intensive activity, you've lost sodium, and you've lost potassium, calcium and magnesium. And if it's not replaced and your body cannot do this naturally, then when you drink water, your body does not absorb the water, go process straight through. You're in 80 out, and when we do so, we also removes nutrients already held in the body. When we eat food, we don't absorb the new patrician properly because we are dehydrated. So the electrolyte replacement drink that has those elements in it actually did. Infertility. Tate hydration on the absorption of nutrients from food. Now that's very simple, but so many athletes, even if they know it, don't do it on in equestrians. Writers don't think about it so much, but I can almost guarantee that they give the electrolyte replacement to their horses.

spk_0:   14:11
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, they're not looking after their cells is they should, indeed so. So there's the

spk_1:   14:18
1st 2 things. If you use the energy mood, motivation, performance and then do that checklist through the physical, the next one is about the relationship with the horse. It's a partnership, but for May, the partnership is 51 49 it's the rider that needs to be in charge because the rider is sitting a book. The horse you could see over the fences to see what's going on on the horse requires the riders to be the leader. If writers are feeling that they're not doing that, then there is something wrong, and then the horse will behave in ways which the rider doesn't want. Then it's about social relationships with coaches, parents competitors. Friends have expectations off us, and sometimes coaches and instructors could be brutal.

spk_0:   15:13
Yes, yes, they can.

spk_1:   15:14
And when that happened, they can make an assumption that the rider just has to cope with it. But the riders may well be very senses on Dhe feel that either what's being said is undermining or even abusive all that. They simply don't cope with that. The command style of coaching, where it needs to be much more cooperative in nature to discuss what's happening toe, look at video footage and think, Can you see what's happening here? You're getting tight, and this is where the anxiety in the hyper arousal elements are important is because when we start to become stressed, we start in our bodies, and the first thing that happens is in the hands on the hands were connected to the rain and so on and so forth,

spk_0:   16:01
the controlling mechanism

spk_1:   16:03
and the tightness in the leg. And then the Sikh becomes uncomfortable and out of balance, and then all of those things get get remembered back by the horse. So that's what I mean in the beginning about awareness. Is that what the writers become aware of these elements of themselves on the origins off it, they begin.

spk_0:   16:27
And I've got some questions that people have sent in. An instagram thio ask you if that's OK? Yeah, So this first one's from Abby, and she's asked how to stay positive during the winter, where it's wet and cold. And I can kind of relate to this when I travel abroad quite a bit during the winter with work, and I find it really hard coming back. So that kind of gloomy British winter and somebody would have been somewhere sunny.

spk_1:   16:50
Well, after six years, the Monte Carlo

spk_0:   16:53
think coming

spk_1:   16:55
back to five months of solid rain, I totally understand that.

spk_0:   16:59
And

spk_1:   16:59
the sun is actually shining at this moment.

spk_0:   17:02
Yes,

spk_1:   17:03
realistically, there are some people who genuinely suffer, sees no adjusted disorder because of lack of sunlight. And so, for a big part of our population, we ought to be aware off the use of vitamin supplement with vitamin D three. And apparently it is best taken with vitamin K as an activated to the Hitman three on. This isn't just reported in the lack of sunlight for us, but actually research 10 years ago shown us that it's an element in chronic diseases such as Alzheimer's disease. So that's that's one thing to consider in terms of positivity. I can absolutely guarantee this that when we look down, we start to become negative. We block energy the moment that we look straight ahead. It changes the energy, and it changes the movement if you like.

spk_0:   18:09
No, the

spk_1:   18:10
way that we I think now This comes from years of observation and years of using something called brain spotting, which is an eye position mechanism to connect with the brain onto a remove Troma. It's developed out of what's known as E M G R eye movement, desensitization and re processing, and that's used as a primary intervention. Posttraumatic stress disorder and brain spotting is a development of a much more successful on. What I've noticed is that when people are positive when thinking about positive things and they open their eyes, they're looking straight ahead

spk_0:   18:54
on.

spk_1:   18:54
I've demonstrated any genetically, but when they look down the energy drops and when they look straight ahead it it increases. So Abby, particularly when you're on your horse. If you're looking straight ahead, not only would you feel more positive But it will also allow your posture to be in perfect balance on your saddle and in your office position, which not only allows you to be more rhythmic in movement but means that you do less damage to your horse because of poor poor posture and poor positioning.

spk_0:   19:33
That was fascinating, and Kimberly's asked, by overcoming anxiety when people she knows are watching her compete when they're standing at the side of the ring. How do we overcome those whose feelings?

spk_1:   19:44
Okay, so this this comes into what I call fantasy patri anxiety on dhe. We move here into what's known as extrinsic and intrinsic motivation, extrinsic motivation, our motivations to do something from people outside of us teachers, coaches, parents, peer group supported sponsors. Um on they are hoping that we're going to do well on the horse is going to do well. The intrinsic part is the rider themselves, and their own expectations on their own expectations can be perfectionistic Andi and beyond capability simply by trying to meet unreal expectations of those around. What we know about Goal Fetting is that gold aren't achieved unless they are intrinsically motivated. In other words, we want to do it for ourselves. So, Kimberly, forget your parents. Forget your sponsors. Forget the crowd. Forget everybody else around you. You ride this horse and you do this competition for yourself solely on in that moment. And when you do what you do and enjoy it, that's when you perform at

spk_0:   21:07
your

spk_1:   21:08
best. And when you do well by default, all those other people are more than satisfied. Now it can be that there was some earlier trauma to do with bullying.

spk_0:   21:23
More

spk_1:   21:23
to do with being undermined by a coach or a teacher, or even a fellow pupil or fellow rider, where it's affected yourself value in the way that you believe in yourself, and then that can limit what you feel that you could do so again. Believe it or not, breathing is one of the ways that you calm yourself down because when you start to feel that sense of arousal, it's your sympathetic nervous system driving your energy that send you into that state of fight or flight. But when you're breathing smoothly, particularly in through the nose, and that the outbreak is like blow in the wind, it's soft and it's smooth and means that the upper body doesn't collapse. And so when you're your postural position of your horses key, that's really important on that breathing sensation moves you away from the sympathetic fright flight into that sense of calm in Paris, where you can feel calm. But

spk_0:   22:40
you're good, just like you've done this before. Last question comes from John. He says he's competing at one meter 10 level and wants to know when he wants to move up to like, one meter. 15 y five centimeters looks so much bigger for him.

spk_1:   22:56
So, John, first of all, most you created this five centimeters to be about £20

spk_0:   23:02
yet,

spk_1:   23:04
and this is what we call a limiting self belief. So what I've just seen suggesting is that when hell value is low, in other words, we don't feel so good about ourselves. Then we created limitations in our own ability to do something. Now, again, that that might have come from an early experience of being told that we're not good enough. That will never do it, whether it comes from a parent to coach a teacher or anyone else. But that message then becomes internalized and in person. I can't do this I'm not good enough on the language. It's part of demonstrating the limitation. I can't I won't. I never So the first thing is to remove that blocking language. I can do this. It is possible if you if you want to jump over five centimeters, you would just literally be stepping over it and not even notice. If you two video your horse jumping over 1.2 10 you see that was flying at least 1.25 And for the horse, it's not a problem. So it's the rider. That's the issue.

spk_0:   24:19
Yeah,

spk_1:   24:19
the rider is telling himself and the horse we can't do this. And the horse will feel his worry in these anxiety, physiologically from the legs through the tightness of the rain when he becomes overly anxious approaching the jump. Whereas if he would say, You know what, we could do this, and he again uses the breathing on, uh, in his mind, Visualize is successfully jumping jump. It's fine, and indeed, if he was to do 1 20 he would find that 1 15 is well here. So these are limiting self believes that he will have created for himself a whole range of reason, and so there are things that he can simply do. But when when he actually looks at the minute time Oh, about five centimeters, it's his brain and his perception that's making it so much bigger. I worked with a swimmer doing 50 meter freestyle who had to take 1.2 seconds off his time to go to the Olympics. With one race to go, I said to him, After all the work that we don't the problem is your best friend is the record holder and you don't have the guts to beating because he's your mate and your lovely persons.

spk_0:   25:46
So don't bother

spk_1:   25:47
going to the Olympics. If you really want to do this, you're gonna beat him because you have to. And he did.

spk_0:   25:53
And he does. And in that moment he knocked

spk_1:   25:56
no 0.8 of a second office time. And then 25 minutes later, he was called into the relay and he wasn't really prepared, and he went in and he smashed another 250.8

spk_0:   26:08
my

spk_1:   26:08
that time. So in a matter of one hour, he took 1.6 seconds off his time and he needed to do 1.2, and after two and 1/2 years, he hadn't been out to do it. And then in one hour he did.

spk_0:   26:21
You can make people go faster. You can't. We'll fill you Been amazing. I've got to ask you as well. I've always wondered this of psychologists and psychiatrists. When you meet someone for the first time, do you really can I start to psychoanalyze him?

spk_1:   26:35
We all die within the 1st 30 seconds. This came to me very, very early on in my career when I when I worked in psychiatry, and I have to go into a psychiatric unit to interview a patient to see whether they should continue to be detained under the mental health. And that's partly my nature. But I I went over to them, and I shook their hand

spk_0:   27:02
on

spk_1:   27:03
as I. As I shook their hand, I felt it trembling. I felt them being frightened, looking away from me, not being able to speak, assuming an end that moment. I'm picking up a lot of this information subconsciously as well as consciously and in fact, when we need people were actually communicating subconsciously immediately. The stomach is our second brain picks up is our century system that feeds our information that the spinal called into the base of the brain and send it directly into the amygdala, which is where our physical and emotional memories help. Believe it or not, the visual core sex In other words, what we see through the eyes take another half second longer to reach the same place. And so that's what we're doing. Is that what we meet? Someone of rings are already, uh, systematized to pick up the information about them on then the visual cortex, allowing to see their color, their hair that I their body posture on, then one they speak or when they look at us, we've already picked up those information on we've already decided. Is this person safe or not? Then are we attracted to them or not? What is it that is appealing about them or not appealing? So as a psychologist, yes, there are other things that I might be looking for, and certainly one of the things I look for is where they look.

spk_0:   28:49
So

spk_1:   28:50
you know, part of it is that it's like what will be give out a CZ ourselves

spk_0:   28:56
and the

spk_1:   28:56
people who are shy and quiet, people who are exuberant and, you know, full of energy, you know, picking up on those kind of things subconsciously. A cz well, ast consciously. So it's not just me a party

spk_0:   29:11
that way

spk_1:   29:14
I might be a little bit.

spk_0:   29:17
Well, I'm gonna let you go before you analyze me anymore, And people want to find out more about what you do or can. I want to ask you for help. What's what's What's the best way to get in touch? I have a

spk_1:   29:29
what? What I believe is a very informative Web site, which is sporting performance psychology. Or if you just Google Phil Johnson, sports psychologist, the website podcast. The whole range of things come up

spk_0:   29:46
greats. Well, thank you very much again. Really appreciate it.

spk_1:   29:49
Thank you. Enjoy. The, um one of the reasons that ah, customer service centers use people from Scotland is because they have very calming. Very warm.

spk_0:   30:03
Really? Yeah. There

spk_1:   30:06
you go.

spk_0:   30:06
So if all else fails, I can get a job doing that. E u walking anywhere. Thanks there to Phil Johnson iPhone That absolutely fascinating. And I hope you picked up one or two things that you could include with your work, a home or when you're competing. For the next year, Episodes were back chatting to athletes. We've got some big names lined up. Hopefully, though, we can drop one or two more of these specials in chatting to industry leaders, maybe in vet science, nutrition or breeding and something exciting to look forward to. We're gonna be doing a couple off live episodes where you can get involved and you can ask questions. I'll tell you all about that on Episode 10. It's oats in a couple of weeks. Tune in again. Next time. If it's equestrian, it's on under the saddle with Adam Crumitie.