A Discovery of Witches

A richly inventive novel about a centuries-old vampire, a spellbound witch, and the mysterious manuscript that draws them together.

Deep in the stacks of Oxford's Bodleian Library, young scholar Diana Bishop unwittingly calls up a bewitched alchemical manuscript in the course of her research. Descended from an old and distinguished line of witches, Diana wants nothing to do with sorcery; so after a furtive glance and a few notes, she banishes the book to the stacks. But her discovery sets a fantastical underworld stirring, and a horde of daemons, witches, and vampires soon descends upon the library. Diana has stumbled upon a coveted treasure lost for centuries-and she is the only creature who can break its spell.

Debut novelist Deborah Harkness has crafted a mesmerizing and addictive read, equal parts history and magic, romance and suspense. Diana is a bold heroine who meets her equal in vampire geneticist Matthew Clairmont, and gradually warms up to him as their alliance deepens into an intimacy that violates age-old taboos.

Do you have a book you'd like us to review on this show? Send us an email at badassliteraturesociety@gmail.com

If you don't already, follow us on Instagram and Facebook

Art by Justin Miller Design

Check us out here!

Transcript

00:00:01.37
Michael Wood
Welcome back to the Badass Literature Society, where badasses come together to rate and review novels recommended by you. Hi, I'm Michael.

00:00:08.15
Ashmole 783
This is Barbara.

00:00:09.30
Ashmole 781
And I'm Lauren. Hi, mine.

00:00:10.81
Michael Wood
This month, we read A Discovery of Witches by Deborah Harkness, and it was recommended to us by and I's mom. Hi, mom, if you're listening. First, a little bit about the author.

00:00:21.75
Ashmole 781
um mom

00:00:23.36
Michael Wood
Deborah Harkness is a number one New York Times bestselling author who draws on her expertise as a historian of science, medicine, and the history of the book to create rich narratives steeped in magical realism, historical curiosity, and deeply human questions about what it is that makes us who we are.

00:00:40.18
Michael Wood
The first book, In Harkness' beloved All Souls series, A Discovery of Witches, was an instant new York Times bestseller, and the series has since expanded with the addition of subsequent New York Times bestsellers, Shadow of Night, The Book of Life, and Time's Convert, as well as the companion reader, The World of All Souls. The All Souls series has also been translated now into 38 languages.

00:01:00.43
Michael Wood
languages Barbara, and tell us a little about the book itself.

00:01:05.46
Ashmole 783
Sure. This was originally published on February 8th of 2011. The genre is considered fantasy, romance, and paranormal. Depending on the copy that you own, it has 592 pages. it currently has on Amazon, and a 4 Fable.

00:01:21.37
Ashmole 783
point zero on good reads four point five on amazon and a for on fable It's nominated for the Goodreads Choice Award for Paranormal Fantasy and for Favorite Book and for Goodreads Author in 2011. won the Skiba Award for fiction. Not sure if it's pronounced Skiba or S-C-I-B-A.

00:01:42.55
Ashmole 783
um And we think it's important for readers to know why, if any, representation is in the books we read. So for this book, there are Supporting BIPOC Characters, Main Supporting LGBTQ Plus Characters, and Main and Supporting Characters with dis Disabilities.

00:01:59.15
Michael Wood
All right. And Lauren, how about a little synopsis of A Discovery of Witches?

00:02:05.18
Ashmole 781
Sure, I'd love to.

00:02:09.24
Ashmole 781
Deep in the stacks of Oxford's Bodleian Library, young scholar Diana Bishop unwittingly calls up a bewitched al alchemical manuscript in the course of her research. Descended from an old and distinguished line of witches, Diana wants nothing to do with sorcery, so after... a furtive glance and a few notes, she banishes the book to the stacks.

00:02:27.45
Ashmole 781
But her discovery sets a fantastical underworld stirring and a horde of demons, witches and vampires soon descends upon the library. Diana has stumbled upon a coveted treasure lost for centuries, and she is the only creature who can break its spell.

00:02:39.54
Ashmole 781
Debut novelist Deborah Harkness has crafted a mesmerizing and addictive read, equal parts history and magic, romance and suspense. Diana is a bold heroine who meets her equal in vampire geneticist Matthew Claremont and gradually warms up to him as their alliance deepens into an intimacy that violates age-old taboos.

00:02:57.91
Ashmole 781
This smart, sophisticated story harks back to the novels of Anne Rice, but it is as contemporary and sensual as the Twilight series with an extra serving of historical realism.

00:03:11.03
Michael Wood
So what did you think about a discovery of witches? And remember, no spoilers.

00:03:18.20
Ashmole 783
So i enjoy enjoyed the beginning of it, really struggled in the middle, and then enjoyed the last fourth, would you say it would be?

00:03:34.70
Ashmole 783
Like fourth of the book or maybe even, I don't know, the last part of the book.

00:03:38.68
Michael Wood
More than that, I think like the final third of the book probably.

00:03:41.11
Ashmole 783
Yeah. i yeah

00:03:47.35
Ashmole 783
Was not a fan of the romance between the two main characters. And obviously we'll get into that a little bit later on. I thought there were some problematic things about it.

00:04:00.79
Ashmole 783
But i really what I really enjoyed was the world that she built. And how all of these the three main creatures kind of worked around in this world. And and I thought it was interesting how I wouldn't say it's not like a different take on the vampires, demons, and witches. Because I feel like there's only so much new things you can do about that to add your own flavor to it. But it is different in like other you know monster books that I have read. and So I enjoyed reading about how

00:04:36.47
Ashmole 783
She had these monsters being her world. So I would say overall, I enjoyed the world. I think my issue was the two main characters where I was not a huge fan of them. And that's kind of where it dragged for me.

00:05:02.17
Michael Wood
Sorry about that. um So i I really enjoyed ah parts of the book. i have a lot i have similar feelings to Barbara, though. And I'll say up front, I'm grateful that this was a podcast book because there's probably some universe where it wasn't, and I just picked this up or someone recommended it, and I didn't finish it.

00:05:19.51
Michael Wood
um I really enjoyed the beginning. Similar to Barbara said, the world she built is really cool. The different supernatural forces in that world are really interesting. I didn't really like the main character.

00:05:30.55
Michael Wood
The middle third of the book is all about her romance and slow burn relationship with this vampire. um And it's not, for me anyway, it was not very exciting. But I'm glad I pushed through it because the end of the book, like Barbara was saying, the final third was incredible. So so yeah, overall, I would say I liked it, but there was a decent chunk in the middle that was not so good.

00:05:58.55
Ashmole 781
Yeah, I would agree. I think um I enjoyed it overall. i enjoyed, even though some of like the plot devices were a little tropey, like I still enjoyed the plot. I still enjoyed the world building.

00:06:09.85
Ashmole 781
I still enjoyed the characters, even though i didn't always agree with their, the way that some of the things went down, which we'll talk about later. But I will say it was definitely like a slow burn. It took me quite a while of like,

00:06:23.67
Ashmole 781
oh, I've got to listen. Like I've got to get it was kind of like one of those up until the halfway point almost for me. i was like, I got to get through this for the podcast versus like looking forward to turning it on. And then I think once I hit about 45 percent, maybe then I was like,

00:06:38.84
Ashmole 781
okay, now like I want to listen to figure out what happens kind of thing. Which, like Michael said, generally speaking, if this wasn't one that quote-unquote have to finish for either my book club or the podcast, I probably would have DNF'd it. So I'm obviously glad that I did finish it because it was I enjoyed it. But if I were to recommend it, I would have to give that caveat for sure.

00:07:03.83
Michael Wood
Okay, so we're obviously not going to go into our individual ratings at this point. Got to wait till the end for that. But our group score for this book was a seven out of 10. So would you recommend this book?

00:07:18.10
Michael Wood
This was a tough one. um I think my honest answer is probably no. Not because I didn't like the book, but because i would have trouble recommending a book that I myself would have probably DNF'd if I didn't have to finish it for the podcast.

00:07:33.98
Michael Wood
um So while it is an interesting world and it does have some really cool stories and aspects to it, because of that, I don't think I can wholeheartedly recommend this book.

00:07:48.98
Ashmole 781
I feel like, like I said, i would I would recommend it with the caveat, like just if I were to tell somebody about it, would just say, hey, hang in there for the first, you know, however much it gets better kind of thing.

00:08:00.79
Ashmole 781
I don't think that that makes it for me at least not recommend it or make it makes it not recommendable because I feel like there have been quite a few books that i actually really am glad that I read slash enjoyed that I hated the first third of.

00:08:13.34
Ashmole 781
So um you just never know. Plus there's three books. So like it could even continue to get, you know, better from here.

00:08:21.62
Ashmole 783
Better. Yeah. I feel like this is because it's from 2011. This was a romanticy before. Romanticy really was a thing and like blew up and is like a whole ah whole thing.

00:08:39.41
Ashmole 783
i guess it's not like a pure high fantasy novel, but obviously it does have fantasy elements to it because of the whole supernatural witches and demons and vampires trope part of it. So I would feel like for people who like romanticies,

00:08:58.46
Ashmole 783
I would recommend it for them because I feel like this is your bread and butter in the sense that it's a very well written book. Like I'm not going to discredit that aspect of it. Like, You can tell that she knows what she's talking about when it comes to history and like the medical aspect ah and all of that. And that was a really interesting aspect for me. Sometimes I felt like it was a little too much and I was like, okay, like I don't care. Let's move along, you know, but like you, you can tell. So I feel like in that sense, I think it's well-written

00:09:32.28
Ashmole 783
It's not one of these, and I'm not trying to... I am. I'm going to bash some of these romantic-y other books out there, which I think are subpar at best. This, I don't wouldn't consider that. So I feel like for for people who enjoy that, I think you really should check out this book. I think you would really enjoy it. The only problem is for people...

00:09:52.31
Ashmole 783
who only read books for the quote-unquote spicy level, you're going to be disappointed in this one because that's not what this is about. i If that's what you're looking for, i would not pick this one up.

00:10:06.43
Ashmole 783
But I think...

00:10:06.62
Ashmole 781
Look elsewhere.

00:10:08.17
Ashmole 783
Huh?

00:10:09.02
Ashmole 781
If that's what you're looking for, look elsewhere.

00:10:11.03
Ashmole 783
Yes, exactly. like There's literally books tailored for you for that. and like ah it's i you know you You would not be disappointed in those. and like good you know I'm not trying to...

00:10:23.38
Ashmole 783
be like, oh, you shouldn't read that. you can read whatever you want. Like there's, read there's books for you for that. This is not one of those, but I really do think if you actually do enjoy the romantic-y aspects of books that are well-written, that aren't problematic, I feel like this is one that you probably should actually check out because I think it is very well-written. Like I don't, I didn't have any issues with the way this was written. yeah.

00:10:50.65
Ashmole 783
There's problematic tropes in it, but like that's so stereotypical in these types of books, I feel like, that I feel like you would be one of those people who would have no issues with that. So I would only recommend it for those people. I don't i don't think anyone who's just looking for a high fantasy novel would enjoy this one that much.

00:11:11.76
Ashmole 781
But I don't think it's advertised as high fantasy either, is it? It's

00:11:14.39
Michael Wood
No, it's not.

00:11:14.39
Ashmole 783
No, it's not.

00:11:15.19
Michael Wood
It's paranormal fantasy.

00:11:16.86
Ashmole 783
Paranormal. Which I guess is because of the... Vampire?

00:11:21.36
Ashmole 781
just like the woods is vampires, paranormal stuff, yeah.

00:11:23.38
Ashmole 783
Yeah, I guess that's why it's paranormal, I guess.

00:11:28.54
Michael Wood
Yeah, mean I think it'd be kind of paranormal urban fantasy since it takes place in the modern world.

00:11:32.09
Ashmole 783
i Yeah, I would say urban fantasy, 100%.

00:11:33.40
Michael Wood
Yeah.

00:11:35.80
Ashmole 781
I mean, I think, like, the the preview that I just read, like, they kind of tied it up. Like, it's the historical realism piece. Because I did, like, I appreciated, we can talk about this later, too, but just, like, the, how much history was kind of weaved in there.

00:11:52.86
Ashmole 781
then also, like, like you said, Barbara, she clearly, like, did research to know about, like, the medical stuff, the historical stuff, like, all of the different things.

00:12:02.39
Ashmole 783
Yeah.

00:12:02.76
Ashmole 781
aspects which I feel like you don't always get with these kind of tropes so

00:12:07.16
Ashmole 783
No, not at all, actually. Yeah.

00:12:11.61
Michael Wood
No, mean, the accurate history was one of my favorite parts. i would I would shout that part out also. Anywho, for those of you leaving us at this point, don't forget to give us a rating. If you like us, make sure you're following us on Facebook and Instagram. Our handle is at BadassLitPod. We'd love to hear from you. If you've got a book you want us to read in a future episode, let us know.

00:12:29.75
Michael Wood
Now, for a short preview of our next episode. Next month, we'll be reading Lost Girls of Hollow Lake by Rebecca Fabian.

00:12:38.47
Ashmole 781
I'm so excited for this one. And for those of you that do follow us, you might have heard us talk about this one on our bonus episode for looking forward to in 2026.

00:12:41.57
Michael Wood
Thank you.

00:12:45.72
Ashmole 783
hu

00:12:48.90
Ashmole 781
So this one did just come out. I don't know that I have a date for you, but it was recent.

00:12:52.86
Ashmole 783
jane It was in January.

00:12:54.82
Ashmole 781
It was like January, February.

00:12:55.29
Ashmole 783
Yeah.

00:12:56.22
Ashmole 781
So it is new.

00:12:56.66
Ashmole 783
yeah Something like that.

00:12:59.38
Ashmole 781
All right, here's the preview. After a group of teens visits a dangerous island where three are left behind, the surviving girls realize they must return to confront the sinister force hunting them. This dark YA thriller is perfect for fans of Yellow Jackets. Eight were lost, five were found. None will ever be free.

00:13:15.74
Ashmole 781
For Evie Williams, life is about to get a lot more complicated. Haunted by the events of a school trip to Hollow Lake National Park that went disastrously wrong, Evie and her friends returned changed.

00:13:26.04
Ashmole 781
Their lives forever marked by the mysterious island they encountered and the three girls they left behind. Now someone is picking off those who were involved one by one. Their families, friends, and even online investigators are all caught in a deadly game.

00:13:38.17
Ashmole 781
The stakes are raised when Evie receives a chilling... chilling something to save her loved ones she must return to the island as evie and the other lost girls navigate the treacherous terrain of the island once more they must confront the secrets they've buried the horrors they've witnessed and the person or thing that's hunting them but some secrets refuse to stay hidden and the island demands a price for freedom

00:14:00.46
Ashmole 783
I'm so excited for this.

00:14:02.84
Ashmole 781
me too it reminds me of um gosh what are those movies that like nobody gets to live like like they if they like they dodged like the natural disaster and then um and then it comes for you like what is this yeah it reminds me of i mean it may not be nothing like that but it reminds me of like oh you got out on skate at that time and now we're gonna like pick you up on my death is coming for you yeah so

00:14:15.49
Ashmole 783
Oh, um, Final Destination. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:14:26.39
Ashmole 783
Right, like, death is coming for you. You just, they just skipped a little, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah yeah No, I mean, it definitely gives me Yellow Jacket vibes, and I freaking love that show. So, like, obviously, girl, you need to.

00:14:36.57
Ashmole 781
I didn't see Yellow Jacket, so now I have to watch it.

00:14:38.40
Michael Wood
It's really good.

00:14:39.45
Ashmole 783
It's so good. You need to watch it. It's so good. I mean, I like it, Same.

00:14:44.27
Ashmole 781
I'll have to watch it. I'm excited for this one, so um hopefully you'll join my us.

00:14:47.91
Ashmole 783
savings

00:14:48.92
Michael Wood
Yeah, it sounds it sounds good. um Also, checked because was like, oh, no, did I like mess up get copying and pasting this? Nope. The word after chilling is missing on Goodreads as well, which is where I always get the synopsis of these books from.

00:14:59.25
Ashmole 781
That's so weird.

00:15:00.29
Ashmole 783
I've noticed that Goodreads sometimes on the synopses is missing a word because I've done that before and I'm like, hmm, there's a missing word here.

00:15:00.45
Ashmole 781
I'm going to

00:15:07.86
Ashmole 781
Well, just adds to the mystery. We're not sure what. either Evie receives a chilling something.

00:15:14.84
Michael Wood
It's a chilling something.

00:15:15.26
Ashmole 781
don't know.

00:15:16.00
Michael Wood
Who knows?

00:15:19.96
Michael Wood
ah Remember, the second part of this episode is going to be an in-depth look at a discovery of witches. So if you do want to read it, stop listening now and come back when you're done.

00:15:29.62
Michael Wood
Now, for those of you sticking around for the spoilers, here we go. We'll start off like we always do and figure out who gets the badass character award. Barbara, who's your nominee?

00:15:39.06
Ashmole 783
Okay, so I don't think this has ever happened where I honestly don't think anyone deserves the award personally. Like, I really cannot... i I can't pick someone. And so I went the funny route.

00:15:54.46
Ashmole 783
I thought it was funny, but, you know, my sense of humor is kind of niche. But I said Juliet, and if you've read the book, you know who that is. And the reason why I picked her is because she tried her hardest to kill the two maids, and by golly, she got so close. ah

00:16:12.06
Ashmole 781
I snort laughed reading that, so I had to disagree.

00:16:16.15
Ashmole 783
Because I was like sitting here and I was like, Michael, I really like... I... ah No offense to the main girl, because obviously she's our, you know, main character, but Diana bothered me so badly.

00:16:28.98
Ashmole 783
And I'm not a fan of Matthew either, because he's slightly problematic. So I'm like, well... I guess Julia, because she tried getting rid of the two people I had a problem with.

00:16:39.50
Ashmole 783
And I loved, I mean, was it a tropey aspect of the book?

00:16:41.65
Michael Wood
Wow.

00:16:44.12
Ashmole 783
Like some random person just shows up to murder, try to murder them. And it turned into whole thing. I was in the, like, I enjoyed that scene because I was like, finally, some stuff is happening.

00:16:54.89
Ashmole 783
Yeah. ah

00:16:57.23
Ashmole 781
I was going to pick Diana and then I was, I saw that. I was like, yeah, I gotta give it to her. I gotta give it to her.

00:17:03.29
Ashmole 783
Not that i want them to die. Exactly. She was.

00:17:07.03
Michael Wood
Well, so I guess de facto Juliet's going to get it.

00:17:07.33
Ashmole 783
Yeah.

00:17:10.15
Michael Wood
my my nominee was was Sarah for this. I thought Sarah was a badass witch who was very powerful.

00:17:14.07
Ashmole 783
she was know

00:17:15.90
Michael Wood
And I thought it was the scenes where she did use her magic were really cool.

00:17:16.93
Ashmole 781
It's true.

00:17:19.06
Michael Wood
So i even Matthew, the all-powerful vampire, was impressed by some of her magic. so

00:17:24.53
Ashmole 783
I really enjoyed the non-main kid. Like, I really liked Marcus and Miriam. Like, loved Miriam. I liked Sarah and Emmy and then Sophie and Nathaniel, Hamish, ah his mom, Isabeau.

00:17:39.03
Ashmole 783
Like, I loved all of them.

00:17:39.05
Michael Wood
East Boe, yeah.

00:17:40.39
Ashmole 783
Like, they were all so much more interesting.

00:17:41.85
Michael Wood
Baldwin.

00:17:44.76
Michael Wood
I was going to say Baldwin if I was going to go with the joke option.

00:17:45.38
Ashmole 783
uma

00:17:46.88
Michael Wood
He was he was also a badass in his own right.

00:17:48.41
Ashmole 783
Oh, the brother. Yeah.

00:17:49.75
Michael Wood
No.

00:17:50.72
Ashmole 783
Problematic brother, kind of. Problematic in the sense that he was always angry.

00:17:52.34
Michael Wood
I think he'll probably play a bigger role maybe in the future books.

00:17:55.16
Ashmole 783
Oh, 100%. Yeah. Oh, gosh. What?

00:17:56.66
Michael Wood
Yeah.

00:17:57.05
Ashmole 783
you know

00:17:59.78
Michael Wood
Anywho, speaking of characters, let's talk about them. Barbara, I'm going to let you talk about your all-time favorite character in any book of all time.

00:18:03.83
Ashmole 783
oh gosh

00:18:05.85
Michael Wood
Diana.

00:18:06.84
Ashmole 783
ah Why would you do that? Okay, so Diana is our main character, and we actually get, i would say move probably 96% of the book is in first-person her point of view. So we are pretty much with her for the most part of the book.

00:18:29.11
Ashmole 783
um She is a witch who doesn't want to be a witch and you kind of find out really wasn't her choice like her parents to save her so she didn't get murdered like wrapped up her power so she couldn't use it it was this it's this whole thing but yeah she's she's the main character she is a professor of alchemy sorts ah and i It's funny. I started out really liking her character and then when Matthew got introduced, i slowly started liking her less and less and less because I feel like her identity got wrapped up in his and I feel like that's very... To me, I don't enjoy that trope.

00:19:22.74
Ashmole 783
I don't like that she went from this type of a character who was so like... self-reliant to, I feel like, someone who's not. And once again, that's not a problem. It's just, I didn't like the way that her story was told. I feel like she was like a strong character without having to add, like, I would literally die for you even though I just met you two weeks trope. And that's my biggest issue with...

00:19:52.50
Ashmole 783
with her her powers looked really cool like obviously she's like a witch that literally has every possible power in the universe that are allowed to have as a witch uh so i thought that was really cool and i would love to see more of that but we didn't really get too much of that in this book in particular so that's her

00:20:14.90
Michael Wood
Yeah, I think she's got like all the powers, to be honest. That's kind of what it sounded like now that they've now they've removed the...

00:20:17.85
Ashmole 783
Yeah, like all the cool, like she literally is like the avatar of this world.

00:20:20.33
Michael Wood
All

00:20:21.97
Ashmole 783
but

00:20:24.85
Michael Wood
right, I'll take the next character, which is Matthew, the other main character. Matthew is a vampire. um He is also the love interest of our main character, Diana.

00:20:38.49
Michael Wood
um I didn't totally hate Matthew's character. I thought i thought he was interesting. I also thought it was kind of funny. So a lot of the vampires in this world have like absurdly long names.

00:20:51.86
Michael Wood
So Matthew Claremont is his like name that he goes by to sound normal, but his full name is Matthew Gabriel, Gabriel, Philippe, Bertrand, Sebastian de Claremont. Whoa, lots of names, but it's also because he's like over a thousand years old or something. So he was an interesting character. I, I thought that, uh,

00:21:12.02
Michael Wood
his inclusion in the book was, was, was interesting. He was, he's a geneticist. He's a scientist. He obviously has a lot of, uh, historical knowledge as well, just from being alive for all this time. He's the leader of a secret society, the Knights of, Oh, what was the, the Knights of Zinibane remember the group that he's, a no, the Templars, like this group absorbed the Templars.

00:21:29.94
Ashmole 783
It's not the Templars.

00:21:33.50
Ashmole 783
Yeah. don't

00:21:36.81
Michael Wood
can't remember the name. It's, it's okay.

00:21:38.22
Ashmole 783
know.

00:21:38.83
Michael Wood
It's it's a secret order of Knights that's existed forever.

00:21:39.19
Ashmole 783
Not important.

00:21:41.27
Michael Wood
um He is a big fan of wine and has lots of very rare, very old wine that he drinks, apparently in this version of Vampires. Vampires be loving blood and wine.

00:21:52.79
Ashmole 783
Well, because I think it's like a...

00:21:53.05
Michael Wood
um

00:21:55.38
Ashmole 783
it helps with the the hunger, right? like they're Like, they also eat nuts, too, or something like that?

00:21:58.06
Michael Wood
I think it helps with the cravings.

00:22:00.82
Ashmole 783
I don't know. I didn't quite understand that fully, but yeah.

00:22:01.91
Michael Wood
Yeah.

00:22:05.24
Michael Wood
But anyway, that's that's a little bit about Matthew. he's said He's a really interesting character. We don't learn... We learn things about him, but you kind of, as the book progresses, it's like, and another thing, surprise, and another thing, surprise.

00:22:16.60
Ashmole 783
Yep.

00:22:16.74
Michael Wood
and And I still feel like at the end of this first book, like realistically, if you think about how long this guy's been alive, we don't know anything about him.

00:22:20.02
Ashmole 783
We know nothing about him.

00:22:23.77
Ashmole 783
Yeah. Right, right, right.

00:22:24.73
Michael Wood
Yeah. Still so many secrets to be potentially uncovered in future books.

00:22:29.82
Ashmole 783
He... Gosh, what was I gonna say? He...

00:22:35.35
Ashmole 783
i don't know. I don't recall.

00:22:37.14
Michael Wood
I wish I could remember the order because the order that he's the leader of was actually a real order of knights. Like I remember looking that up.

00:22:41.81
Ashmole 783
Oh, is it real? I thought that part was, like, fake.

00:22:42.97
Michael Wood
Yeah, it it was. It was real. Almost all the historical references in the book are real historical references, which makes sense learning afterwards that Deborah Harkness is a historian.

00:22:45.37
Ashmole 783
Huh.

00:22:48.17
Ashmole 783
Hmm. Hmm.

00:22:52.70
Michael Wood
So.

00:22:53.46
Ashmole 783
Yeah. So is the Ashmole an actual book?

00:22:57.30
Michael Wood
That part, I don't know. I did not look that up to see if that was real or not.

00:22:58.81
Ashmole 783
Ah. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Gotcha.

00:23:02.55
Michael Wood
Lauren, want tell us about Sarah?

00:23:06.17
Ashmole 783
Do you not know how to read?

00:23:07.86
Michael Wood
Do it anyway. Read what?

00:23:11.58
Ashmole 783
my god. So I'm gonna edit all...

00:23:12.54
Michael Wood
Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.

00:23:12.61
Ashmole 781
You're going to to cut this out anyway.

00:23:13.42
Michael Wood
I got it, I got it, I got it.

00:23:13.58
Ashmole 783
I'm gonna edit all of this out anyways, but apparently...

00:23:14.62
Ashmole 781
Yeah. Sorry. I can't turn it off for another couple of minutes, but we can pause it.

00:23:19.37
Ashmole 783
It's fine.

00:23:19.67
Ashmole 781
I can't.

00:23:19.89
Ashmole 783
No. We'll just go through them. It's not a big deal. Jesus freaking Christ, Michael.

00:23:24.15
Michael Wood
Sorry, i i wasn't looking at I wasn't looking at the chat

00:23:25.37
Ashmole 783
I will edit all of this out. Goddamn. Can you just redo that and don't mention Laura?

00:23:32.60
Ashmole 783
Jesus Christ.

00:23:37.22
Michael Wood
right, next character is sarah Barbara, you want to tell us about Sarah?

00:23:40.70
Ashmole 783
Sarah is Diana's aunt on her mother's side. She's her only living relative outside of all like the dead ghosts in their house. ah She is a renowned witch, but like their whole line is like really like powerful witches and stuff. And I believe her specialty is healing. And so that whole scene of her like healing Diana was really neat. Like I really enjoyed reading about that and how

00:24:13.46
Ashmole 783
the healing process worked for them. She's a very headstrong character. i and i enjoyed her. she She was fun to read about and I wish we had more about her, but alas, she's not one of the main, like main, main, main characters, but yeah, that's, that's who Sarah is.

00:24:37.82
Michael Wood
Okay, our next character is Emily. And I'll be honest, I was a little disappointed. I looked looked on the author because the author has a character list on her own website. i was like, oh, that'll be great little refresher. All that's under Emily is partner of Sarah, also witch.

00:24:53.20
Ashmole 783
That's it.

00:24:54.22
Michael Wood
That's it.

00:24:54.87
Ashmole 783
Oh, interesting.

00:24:55.83
Michael Wood
So that's all you get, dear listeners. Partner of Sarah. Also, I'm just kidding.

00:24:59.13
Ashmole 783
Well, we need to tell the story of who you thought she was, because it made me cackle.

00:24:59.39
Michael Wood
um

00:25:05.94
Michael Wood
Fine. ah So... I did not realize that Emily and Sarah were in a romantic relationship. I thought that Emily, no it's not, it's hold on.

00:25:14.55
Ashmole 783
They were literal roommates.

00:25:18.74
Michael Wood
I did not think that they were roommates. I thought that Emily until later in the book, when it's mentioned that Emily's family was like, you shouldn't tie yourself to this other family. It's going to be the death of you. Um,

00:25:32.09
Michael Wood
that was when I realized that Emily wasn't like another, another relation of Diana's. I thought that they were relatives that lived together in this family house. Uh, and so, yes, Barbara thought that was hilarious.

00:25:43.20
Ashmole 783
But you still, you still didn't. No, no, no. But the best part is, even after reading that part, he still didn't pick up that they were partners. He thought they were just, like, friends. Like, she was a family friend and living.

00:25:54.75
Michael Wood
Yep.

00:25:55.70
Ashmole 783
Ha, ha, ha.

00:25:56.31
Michael Wood
Yep. Totally did.

00:25:57.00
Ashmole 783
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

00:25:59.26
Michael Wood
Totally did.

00:26:00.16
Ashmole 783
Because he's like, is there any LGBTQ plus characters in this? i was like, you're joking, right? Like, that's a joke? He's like, no. And I'm like, oh, honey. Ha, ha, ha, ha.

00:26:10.98
Michael Wood
Definitely did not pick up on their romantic relationship.

00:26:13.75
Ashmole 783
da

00:26:15.80
Michael Wood
But i will say that Emily is more than just the partner of Sarah and also a witch, Deborah Harkness.

00:26:15.88
Ashmole 783
I'm sorry. Yes.

00:26:22.73
Michael Wood
You need to update your character profile. That's not really fair. She was a really interesting character. She's also a very powerful witch from a different powerful witch family. um She is also a lot of times the voice of reason in the house because...

00:26:38.17
Michael Wood
i don't know if it runs in the family, but Sarah and Diana can be very hotheaded and emotional.

00:26:42.49
Ashmole 783
yes

00:26:43.35
Michael Wood
And Emily, more often than not, when they were getting all worked up, would be the one that would step in and like kind of be the voice of calm and the voice of reason to get things back on track. I actually enjoyed her character.

00:26:54.51
Michael Wood
So I genuinely was a little bit upset when I saw that on the author's website that she's been relegated to just partner of Sarah and Witch.

00:26:54.90
Ashmole 783
Same.

00:27:00.25
Ashmole 783
Partner.

00:27:04.34
Ashmole 783
She, her powers were like premonition-esque, right? Like she seemed to have that type of powers. Cause they would always like, oh, like, uh, Emmy was her nickname.

00:27:14.16
Michael Wood
Yeah.

00:27:16.46
Ashmole 783
She's like, oh, Emmy, you know, like, did you see this? Did you foresee this type thing? So I think that was her power.

00:27:20.44
Michael Wood
Yeah. Her whole, her whole shtick was scrying and visions.

00:27:24.63
Ashmole 783
That's it. Yeah. Yeah.

00:27:25.99
Michael Wood
Yep. Cause she was also, it was mentioned, uh, she was the one that would like check in on Diana when she was working at the university and that would be through the scrying power, but she has,

00:27:35.80
Ashmole 783
Right. Yeah.

00:27:39.32
Michael Wood
let's see who's next for you, Barbara Marcus.

00:27:43.63
Ashmole 783
Marcus is Matthew's son in the sense of like, he sired him. So if you're not familiar with vampire lore, he created him. Like he turned him into a vampire. Like they're not,

00:27:58.46
Ashmole 783
like, he didn't birth him type thing. Like, he's not... It's hard to say, like, he literally isn't, like, his blood because I feel like in vi vampire lore, like, you feed them your blood and then it's your blood. I don't know. It's a whole thing, right? So, like, he is his little vampire person that he created. ah And he is pretty much like a little son to him. Like, they have a very much father-son relationship. He...

00:28:29.50
Ashmole 783
Was a doctor when he was a human, I believe. And he still practices medicine in a way that vampires, I guess, can practice that.

00:28:39.99
Ashmole 783
ah But, like, obviously, he's also... i Like, I think him and Miriam and Matthew are all... what are what are What's Matthew?

00:28:50.42
Ashmole 783
Like, ah they study genes, right? I think all three of all three of them are that?

00:28:54.03
Michael Wood
geneticist.

00:28:56.57
Ashmole 783
Because, i but like, all three of them...

00:28:57.94
Michael Wood
They all have pretty extensive medical training.

00:29:00.15
Ashmole 783
Yeah, like all three of them are studying, I think all three of the creature or the supernatural's like history and how they came about and like why they're here and how they're created and all of this stuff. I believe that therere the three of them are studying that.

00:29:17.53
Ashmole 783
He... has a bigger role towards the end when Matthew and Diana need to leave and he becomes the head of the secret order that Michael was talking about um for Matthew when Michael has ah to, I don't know, run away in the past type thing. ah So that's a little bit about Marcus. I thought it was kind of weird when Diana was like, oh, my son. I'm like, girl, you just met him.

00:29:46.84
Ashmole 783
But okay, go off, Queen. But yes, that's Marcus.

00:29:52.03
Michael Wood
Let's see. Our next character is Yisbao. She is Matthew's ancient, formidable mother and the matriarch of their family. She is, you know, really, i probably should have given her the badass character award in my nomination because holy cow, is this woman powerful.

00:30:10.19
Michael Wood
She is a truly ancient vampire. Matthew is like a thousand, maybe a little over a thousand years old, something like that.

00:30:17.40
Ashmole 783
Something like that, yeah.

00:30:18.76
Michael Wood
it's implied that Ysbal is like at least twice as old as that, maybe even older.

00:30:18.99
Ashmole 783
She's older. Mm-hmm.

00:30:22.36
Michael Wood
like I don't think we actually get her actual age.

00:30:24.57
Ashmole 783
We don't, yeah.

00:30:25.75
Michael Wood
But she's she's only described as ancient, which gives you some idea. so I thought she was really interesting character. There were a couple of... i wanted to mention this about Marcus. There was a funny jab at one point that she had, because he' he is a physician, and they made a joke.

00:30:39.25
Ashmole 783
Mm-hmm.

00:30:40.24
Michael Wood
She made a joke about how he wasn't a very good physician during the Revolutionary War, which is when Matthew met him and sired him, but apparently Apparently he wasn't a very good doctor at that time, but he's now is a, she's a very cool character.

00:30:54.93
Michael Wood
um I thought personally of the, the clan of the vampires, I thought she was very interesting. um She's very protective of Matthew. She was initially very against him having anything to do with Diana because of the whole.

00:31:08.11
Michael Wood
No,

00:31:08.34
Ashmole 783
Well, we come to find out why, because it's illegal for them to have a relationship

00:31:12.28
Michael Wood
correct.

00:31:15.06
Michael Wood
And we'll talk more about the whole family dynamic thing later, but that is a little bit about her. And our final character, Barbara, is Miriam.

00:31:22.97
Ashmole 783
Yeah, Miriam, like I sort of mentioned her earlier, she's the the third one with Matthew and Marcus. We don't get too, too much about her. Like, I don't believe Matthew sired her.

00:31:33.61
Ashmole 783
i

00:31:34.15
Michael Wood
No.

00:31:35.93
Ashmole 783
I believe she's older than Matthew, actually. that seemed to be implied. she I'm not really sure how she like met Matthew and Marcus and how she like joined up with them and decided to study all this stuff.

00:31:45.96
Michael Wood
Thank you.

00:31:52.16
Ashmole 783
it's not really like We don't get too too much of her, which is unfortunate because I really liked her character. like She's very blunt, very straight to the point. ah kind of a no nonsense of a person. um She's not a huge fan of Diana, but I, once again, I believe it's all because of like the implications of what it means for her and Matthew to be together. And she clearly cares for Matthew, like in like a friendship way.

00:32:18.87
Ashmole 783
We do learn that when Matthew falls in love with apparently humans or people of non vampiric supernatural abilities, people, people,

00:32:29.02
Michael Wood
people that are weak and and breakable.

00:32:31.80
Ashmole 783
Right. He likes, that's what's so f freaking, like, I feel like if I was Diana and someone told me he likes weak women, I'd be like, excuse me? Like, okay. But regardless, last time this happened, her her partner died. He took the blame for Matthew and perished in Matthew's behalf. He was also part of the order. I'm not, I think she's part of the order, the secret order as well.

00:32:56.28
Ashmole 783
And she is a very, i would say she's a better healer than Marcus is because when, ah think it was Diana was almost dying. She's the one who kind of patched her up.

00:33:09.46
Ashmole 783
So ah she, I really liked her character. I wanted more of her. So I'll be Kirsten if we'll get more of her. And she's like at the very end, there's, they they create this whole little like conclave of people and she's one of the vampires in that.

00:33:29.34
Michael Wood
And our last character is not really a character, more just kind of highlighting that this book has a lot of other side characters as well that we're not going to talk about in this section that are either part of the, uh, conventicle, which is their group.

00:33:42.12
Michael Wood
That's going against the congregation conclave congregation.

00:33:44.73
Ashmole 783
Conclave. Or, yeah. I think it's conclave. Congregation. Congregation, yeah.

00:33:49.46
Michael Wood
Um, there's the members of the congregation. There's other antagonists as well. This book is clearly setting up what's meant to be a trilogy of books. And so there are a lot of other characters. You only get little tidbits of that. You're probably going to learn more about later. Um,

00:34:02.71
Michael Wood
And so we may talk about some of them later in the questions, but just highlighting here that there are a lot of other characters that we didn't include in this list. Moving into our...

00:34:10.65
Ashmole 783
Which were the the, sorry, because we did't we talked about vampires, because these are all literally vampires or witches.

00:34:18.23
Michael Wood
Yes.

00:34:18.58
Ashmole 783
And the other three are ah demons.

00:34:23.19
Michael Wood
Yes. Which is the third supernatural race that they talk about in in this book.

00:34:26.55
Ashmole 783
Right. Yeah.

00:34:30.62
Michael Wood
Moving into our discussion questions, I also wanted to call out that ah some of these questions are actually discussion questions that were provided by the author on her website. Some of them are not. They're ones that we came up with, but others are are directly from the author.

00:34:44.79
Michael Wood
So moving to our first one. Diana's mother says that fear is the strongest force on Earth. What does she mean, and do you agree with that?

00:34:53.99
Ashmole 783
I don't know how to answer that because I do not agree with her. I don't believe that fear is the strongest force on Earth. So if one of you guys have a better insight on this, i don't i don't...

00:35:07.67
Ashmole 783
Maybe it's like the driving force of humans being... Or I guess I don't even know because these things aren't humans. But like... uh it's what makes the world go round i'm not really sure or if she was just saying that to like appease her daughter who had i don't know i i honestly i i don't agree with her i don't i don't see how that's true personally so i'm starting off real strong with this one

00:35:33.62
Michael Wood
So I think that what she means is that, I mean, fear is a very strong force and motivator for humans. um Fear is the instinct behind like fight or flight.

00:35:45.78
Michael Wood
Fear is what allows a mother to lift a vehicle off of of someone to save their child.

00:35:52.55
Ashmole 783
I don't think it's fear, though. I think that's love.

00:35:54.46
Michael Wood
It is, it's it's it's fear of what's going to happen if they can't do it.

00:35:55.73
Ashmole 783
It's not. It's love. it's It's the love for your child, not the fear for your child, I feel like.

00:35:58.22
Michael Wood
I think that the the more,

00:36:02.58
Michael Wood
The love is sure there, but I think the love is the cause of the fear. The fear is, i agree with it. The fear is, ah i don't know about the strongest force on Earth, but it is a very strong force.

00:36:08.65
Ashmole 783
Hmm.

00:36:12.81
Ashmole 783
Well, she said the strongest, Michael.

00:36:13.05
Michael Wood
um

00:36:16.38
Michael Wood
She did.

00:36:16.69
Ashmole 783
That wasn't the question of, is it up to our top three? Because if I would say yes, it probably is there on top three.

00:36:20.97
Michael Wood
explained, I answered the question, I answered the question, which is I explained what I think she means, and I don't agree that it's the strongest force on Earth, but it is up there.

00:36:31.80
Ashmole 783
You would say alcohol is the strongest force on Earth.

00:36:35.64
Michael Wood
Sure. Alcohol, then heroin.

00:36:37.82
Ashmole 783
Perfect. what What about cocaine?

00:36:41.44
Ashmole 781
cocaine doesn't make the list

00:36:43.00
Michael Wood
ah

00:36:45.24
Ashmole 781
I feel like I can understand what Michael's saying too and I also think that love and fear become intertwined when you have kids so it's hard to like uh separate those in like the car situation because yeah you're like Because you love your kids so much, you're terrified that something's to happen to them. And so then the fear drives, but it's also driven by love. So I don't know. there They're kind of similar.

00:37:08.79
Ashmole 781
I disagree that it's the strongest that I would, I would say top three. I think it's, I think people use fear. I think fear is one of the more powerful forces on earth that gets used against people to like manipulate and,

00:37:24.89
Ashmole 781
whether be politically or religiously or otherwise fear is a huge um motivator slash like so i guess maybe that's what she's referring to

00:37:37.65
Ashmole 783
Yeah, I can see that. I just feel like if you are governed by fear, i feel like that's unfortunate because you shouldn't look at the world through that lens.

00:37:49.78
Ashmole 783
Because I feel like that's a lot of what we have an issue with in the world is people are looking through at it in a fear aspect and not in something else, you know, but regardless.

00:38:02.42
Ashmole 781
I 100% agree. it shouldn't It shouldn't be such a driving factor, but it is.

00:38:06.52
Ashmole 783
Yeah, unfortunately.

00:38:07.26
Ashmole 781
like yeah

00:38:11.96
Michael Wood
Moving on to our second question, witches have magic and vampires have immortality. Demons have genius and madness. Do you think the book treats treats demons as equals or are they a secondary plot device?

00:38:25.88
Michael Wood
Well, um I think they're a secondary plot device in this book. i they are There isn't what I would call a main character that is a demon. um I was kind of hoping Initially, we'd get when the demons were in Hamish was first. That's the first demon that we made. It's a friend of Matthew's. I was hoping when Hamish was introduced that he would be the third main character. Like it would be, we'd have like a main character from each of these supernatural groups, but we don't. um And because of that, I'm sticking with that they are a secondary plot device. But, you know, maybe they'll be bigger in other books. Who knows? ah But in this book that we read and that we're talking about, absolutely a secondary plot device and absolutely not treated equally if we're comparing them with witches and to vampires.

00:39:14.04
Ashmole 781
I feel like that I would agree. i think that I wish we would have gotten more info on them in this book, but it might be setting it up to like...

00:39:24.92
Ashmole 781
like michael said maybe be for future books i did like how the question was worded it's like oh witches have magic and vampires have immortality but demons are genius like genius and madness um but yeah i think that they're they're used more as a secondary plot device at least in this first book

00:39:45.78
Ashmole 783
Yeah, I think we can all agree on that. They're definitely secondary plot device. We don't get a lot of them. I'm hoping we get more about them in other books because we get quite a bit of like vampires and witches for the whole. But like Michael mentioned, there's no main character of the demon that we get.

00:40:09.91
Ashmole 783
Hamish a little bit in the beginning with Matthew, and then he doesn't pop pop back up until at the very end. And then we get Nathaniel and Sophie that are demons as well, um towards the end as well. And they're going to be, I'm assuming, maybe bigger...

00:40:25.91
Ashmole 783
characters in future books because it's you know setting this book is setting up for the the next two i' am curious about the whole genius and madness because like we we get that in the book and they mention that quite often when they're talking about demons i'm curious to know like where the the madness aspect of it is Because, like, the few that we talk to, like, there's that one particular demon that we that Diana meets at the very beginning, which happens to be, I believe, Sophie's... No, Nathaniel's mom, right? I think it's Nathaniel's mom.

00:41:04.21
Ashmole 783
And... Like, she's like, oh, she kind of has, like, crazy eyes. But I don't, I didn't, I guess I don't understand what they meant by mad. Is it, like, the whole, like, you know, like, to be so smart, you kind of have to be a little crazy, a little out there because of how your thinking is? Is that what they mean, that they have madness?

00:41:24.12
Ashmole 783
Because I didn't really pick up on that. did I miss something?

00:41:27.93
Michael Wood
I think it was – so it's partially that, and I think that it's it was also mentioned at one point when they she was first describing demons that because of their genius, they're at like ah like kind of like a tipping point that could like tip into madness, and it was part of their supernatural – we don't know.

00:41:44.31
Ashmole 783
But like, what does that look like? Like, are we talking about them like seeing so much of the future that they're like, it kind of drives them crazy?

00:41:48.21
Michael Wood
She never – well, we don't know.

00:41:53.14
Ashmole 783
Or like they are just what we think is compared normal. They're just so above that, that other people find them crazy, but like they're really not type thing.

00:42:04.41
Michael Wood
And because there are a secondary plot device in this book, we don't know.

00:42:06.87
Ashmole 783
We don't know. Okay, so I'm not the only one who didn't, like, get that.

00:42:11.86
Michael Wood
No, you know you're you're absolutely not.

00:42:11.90
Ashmole 783
Okay, okay, okay. Because, like, if you if you see, like, that lady a little bit was a little, like, she was like, oh, what the heck? But then, like, you meet Nathaniel, Sophie, and Hamish, and to me, they looked completely normal.

00:42:25.57
Ashmole 783
Like, I didn't see and anything crazy about, like, if we get about talking about crazy, like, Juliet was the crazy one, like...

00:42:33.62
Michael Wood
Right.

00:42:34.96
Ashmole 783
homegirl was all over the place, you know? So yeah, i don't know.

00:42:40.41
Michael Wood
Also, just as a ah fun aside,

00:42:47.48
Michael Wood
as a fun aside, I was trying to, i was I've got Deborah Harkness' website pulled up here, and I was trying to get to, as one of the demon characters to see, and I actually clicked on the wrong thing.

00:42:58.01
Michael Wood
She has a whole list, a part of her website that's called Matthew Claremont's Wine Cellar, and it's it's a list of all of his wine that is mentioned in the various books. And so apparently all of that is real. All of the wine that is mentioned that he drinks is real wine, which is interesting.

00:43:20.86
Michael Wood
All right, moving on to our next question. The law forbids interspecies mingling to quote unquote, protect them. Is the congregation a necessary evil for survival or purely an instrument of segregation?

00:43:36.51
Ashmole 781
I felt like it was more segregation. um It probably stems from a place of survival, but I feel like it's ultimately just driven by kind of like the fear associated with, oh, like if we, you know, what could happen if the inter-species mingling?

00:43:54.04
Ashmole 781
Like, I don't know how much, I don't know if it's like straight up like, and then would would would that be considered racist? And like for, they're not really racist.

00:44:02.89
Michael Wood
they're They are effectively racist.

00:44:03.78
Ashmole 783
They are racist, yeah.

00:44:03.80
Ashmole 781
They are racist? Okay. Yeah.

00:44:04.99
Ashmole 783
I would consider that racism.

00:44:06.14
Ashmole 781
I don't necessarily think that it's like that type of segregation because of that. I think it's more fear-based and or maybe even to control control things. That's my thought.

00:44:19.83
Ashmole 783
I think it's 100% segregation. I think people fear what they don't know or can't control. i do think it's it's that because it's ah the fear of the unknown. Like, if we were to allow the interspecies mingling, then, like, you're bringing these hybrids, essentially, into...

00:44:44.86
Ashmole 783
existence and if you've read any type of literature or seen any type of show that has vampires uh supernatural beings you know that's this is kind of a normal trope where it's like hybrids are you know because they kind of get the best of both worlds and then they tend to like bridge the gap of like, oh, you don't necessarily need blood to survive. You know, you could use this and it's like kind of mixes with the other thing they're, they're mashed together with. And so it's one of those things where it's like, we don't know what this is. We don't know what this means for our society as a whole.

00:45:25.11
Ashmole 783
And because we're trying to protect our society from like the humans, then we need to keep you guys segregated. But yeah, it's I think it's segregation. It's not like a necessary evil for survival. Because i always I always find it funny because like, yes, in every type of supernatural book that I read, not necessarily like show, but I would say book that I've read, it's always like these supernatural things have to hide the fact that they're living with humans. And it's like, if you think about it, like you can like annihilate humans so easily.

00:46:00.66
Ashmole 783
Like, why are we hiding from them? But, like, I get it's the whole, like, they outnumber them, like, you know, 50 to 1. And technically for vampires, they are their sole, like, source of food, technically.

00:46:14.38
Ashmole 783
So you don't want to, like, kill them off type thing. But I always found that so interesting. It's like, we are a superior racist, but we must hide from the humans, you know? I always thought kind of giggle.

00:46:24.29
Ashmole 781
you think they feed off of animals, though, or no?

00:46:26.81
Ashmole 783
So in this book, because I know every book is different. In this book, I believe what they say is, yes, they can feed off of animals because they do. Obviously, we saw them do it.

00:46:37.24
Ashmole 783
But human blood will always be better for them. So if you remember...

00:46:41.27
Ashmole 781
Like, better, or, you like, they like it better?

00:46:43.16
Ashmole 783
More sustenance for them.

00:46:44.38
Ashmole 781
North Weston is, that's right.

00:46:44.95
Ashmole 783
Yeah. So, like, if you remember, like, when Matthew was hunting and...

00:46:46.07
Ashmole 781
There was that scene where...

00:46:49.35
Ashmole 783
Sorry. When Matthew was hunting and stuff, ah he was hunting animals with Diana. But when he almost dies and needs to, like, recoup all that blood that he lost...

00:46:55.09
Ashmole 781
Right.

00:46:59.74
Ashmole 783
she mentions it looks like she mentions that he had fed on a human because she could tell the difference in like the what he looked like type thing.

00:47:05.81
Ashmole 781
Oh, that's right.

00:47:07.99
Ashmole 783
So I feel like in theory, yes, you can, or they can in this book survive on just animals.

00:47:08.38
Ashmole 781
I remember that.

00:47:15.29
Ashmole 783
But like if they had a preference, they're going to do human blood because it's more sustenance to them. So it would be like eating... Just rice versus eating, like, chicken or steak.

00:47:23.58
Ashmole 781
Yeah. Yeah.

00:47:27.21
Ashmole 783
Like, it's a better protein. Like, it's protein versus, like, a carb. You know? Like, protein's gonna last longer versus a carb that burns quicker in your body. Is how I took it.

00:47:37.94
Ashmole 781
Yeah, I think that's a common, like, trope, because I feel like even in Twilight, maybe, which is not not the standard, but, like, they can survive on animals, but then, like, right.

00:47:40.06
Ashmole 783
It is.

00:47:43.00
Ashmole 783
Correct.

00:47:46.99
Ashmole 783
Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, that's the whole point of the Cullens. Like, they're vet vegetarians, as they call themselves.

00:47:52.06
Ashmole 781
Vegetarians!

00:47:52.79
Ashmole 783
but They don't survive on human blood. ah

00:48:02.97
Michael Wood
So I feel like you guys have already kind of nailed this question, but and I'll provide my insights as well. I think it's segregation. um I don't think it's a necessary evil. I think that if if it's not segregation, then it's also not a necessary evil because I think that the congregation is afraid of what a hybrid might be.

00:48:24.04
Michael Wood
They're afraid of a hybrid monster um that they can't control. And they, like all politicians, they like being in control.

00:48:34.52
Michael Wood
So I think that's where we're at with that. Anyway, moving on to our next question. Why do you think Ashmole, sorry, why do you think the Ashmole 782 only revealed itself to Diana? Does it respond to her bloodline or her specific academic intent?

00:48:49.69
Ashmole 783
I'm assuming it's the bloodline, and I feel like towards the end, that's kind of what it seems like, right? Like, unless I misread that. i And I'll... Speaking of Ashmole782, I will be very curious to know how this book...

00:49:08.89
Ashmole 783
has anything to do with the overall plot because technically it is the overall plot. Like it's the driving force of like why Matthew even got in touch with Diana.

00:49:20.86
Ashmole 783
Like why Diana's having all these issues. And apparently like it's tied to all three of the races because I believe if not mistaken, it's the book that literally talks about like how they're created and why they're created. Maybe not why, but like how they're created.

00:49:35.96
Ashmole 783
And like the vampires want it because they're slowly dying off. Cause they're not making as many little vampires. The witches want it because they think it's their book. And don't know, blah, blah, blah. And to i be honest, inside I think the demons are just kind of there. um So, wait but like, if I'm not mistaken at the end, they said like,

00:49:55.61
Ashmole 783
There were three pages missing and each page probably went out to one of the types of supernaturals. Like Diana got the witch part of the little book or the page.

00:50:08.79
Ashmole 783
And I believe Sophie had the second page, right? Like she gave her the second page. So now we're just missing the vampires page, I believe. a lot Okay.

00:50:18.35
Michael Wood
That's correct.

00:50:20.34
Ashmole 783
So ah I'll be very curious to know like what comes of this whole part of the novel. i do think it's the whole like destiny,

00:50:33.31
Ashmole 783
foretold-esque thing. Like, Diana was destined to be able to, like, open this book. And she's tied to it. And I think it's due to her bloodline.

00:50:46.62
Ashmole 783
So I'll be curious if like Sophie's bloodline can also open it or the whoever the vampire has the the third missing piece. like If it's only their three bloodline that can do it or if it's literally a specific person, like just Diana, just the demon who had the page, just the vampire who had the page. I don't think I picked up on that. I could be wrong though.

00:51:13.78
Michael Wood
So I actually disagree with you, Barbara. i don't think it has anything to do with Bloodline. I think that it is intent. I think that it's looking for, in Diana's case, it wasn't like an evil intent. There wasn't like a, I want to learn about the origins of vampires so that I can destroy all the vampires.

00:51:33.66
Michael Wood
um So I think that it is more related to her innocent intent in researching this to figure out like, I think i think it's kind of like the and it's kind of alluded to this a little bit when it talks about Matthew's obsession with like Darwin and Darwin's origin of species. I think this Ashmole 782 is the supernatural origin of species, in a sense.

00:51:59.13
Michael Wood
um So I think it is more about her intent than her bloodline, but...

00:52:02.39
Ashmole 783
So you think it's kind of like, what is it? Harry Potter? Where in the philosopher's stone, because he didn't want the stone, he got the stone versus Voldy who wanted the stone and couldn't get the stone, like that type of thinking.

00:52:13.40
Michael Wood
Exactly.

00:52:14.73
Ashmole 781
That was my thought.

00:52:15.16
Michael Wood
Exactly.

00:52:15.47
Ashmole 781
That

00:52:16.79
Michael Wood
Exactly.

00:52:16.95
Ashmole 783
I see. so i guess Right,

00:52:18.84
Michael Wood
Because it's like the document can tell that she doesn't want it for nefarious purposes.

00:52:18.86
Ashmole 781
was my thought.

00:52:21.88
Ashmole 783
right. right

00:52:23.29
Michael Wood
So because she doesn't want it for nefarious purposes, it's going to allow her to interpret it.

00:52:26.94
Ashmole 783
I see. I thought when you meant specific academic intent, I thought you meant like, because she's a researcher, that's why. Not because like, she literally is just looking at it as a alchemy.

00:52:40.92
Ashmole 783
Like, I thought you meant like, because she's a teacher, she can therefore open the book.

00:52:45.69
Michael Wood
ah So what I meant by that is that it's because her intent with it is purely academic.

00:52:50.07
Ashmole 783
Right. That makes more sense.

00:52:51.22
Michael Wood
it's not It's not that you know she she doesn't have a nefarious thing. And I think that maybe this manuscript can like detect how you – has some magic with it that can detect how you feel about and like your reasons.

00:53:01.72
Ashmole 783
Sure. Sure, sure.

00:53:03.74
Michael Wood
And it real reads your mind, and then based on that, it lets you see it or not.

00:53:07.45
Ashmole 783
Would you say then maybe it's both? Because she, I feel like very much the book was saying that like destiny, like she was foretold to have this.

00:53:19.86
Ashmole 783
Like she is that person in the little book. So therefore she can open it. Hmm.

00:53:26.46
Michael Wood
i mean I think maybe um because it obviously it's talking about her destiny. And in that sense, like she's also like the most powerful witch in existence and she doesn't want to be. And so that kind of plays into the whole like she gets the power because she doesn't want the power thing.

00:53:41.46
Ashmole 783
yeah Okay, fair, fair.

00:53:45.04
Ashmole 781
I like that interpretation better. i think like the... Yeah, because she... Because with like the Sorcerer's Stone or the Philosopher's Stone or whatever you want to call it, um the...

00:53:57.91
Ashmole 781
He... it was part bloodline and part the fact that he didn't want it or wasn't going to do elbow with it kind of thing.

00:54:04.25
Ashmole 783
Right.

00:54:07.80
Ashmole 781
So I assumed it it was her bloodline just because so many of the other witches and other like magical creatures around could not access it but i had not thought about the fact that maybe they couldn't access it because of their intent either so snaps for michael

00:54:24.54
Ashmole 783
I didn't think about that too until Michael brought it up. I was like, oh, well.

00:54:32.28
Michael Wood
Okay, moving on to our next question. Diana spends the first half of the book actively rejecting her heritage. I wish Barbara was answering this question first. Does her sudden embrace of power feel earned, or is it purely a reaction to Matthew's influence?

00:54:48.73
Ashmole 783
I mean, I can if you want.

00:54:49.11
Michael Wood
um I'll just quickly answer it for myself. It doesn't feel earned in the sense that it's not like she has this realization about herself where she's like, oh my gosh, I need to embrace my heritage and embrace my power.

00:55:05.02
Michael Wood
I think that it feels earned in the sense that, like we were just talking about, like Diana doesn't want to be powerful for the sake of being powerful. So she has earned these powers in the sense that she gets these powers because it's almost like there's like a recognition that she'll be responsible with them, if that makes sense.

00:55:23.77
Michael Wood
um But I also think that Most of what she does from when she meets Matthew on is like a, yes, daddy, I'll do whatever you want. Anything you say, I'll do it.

00:55:34.84
Michael Wood
she because She goes from like, and and this is one of my biggest problems with this book is that Diana goes from like this independent boss bitch character.

00:55:44.72
Ashmole 783
you're literally parodying what I said very early.

00:55:48.60
Michael Wood
am i

00:55:49.34
Ashmole 783
Yeah. Cause that's what I said. I was like, my issue is she goes from a super independent woman to, oh it's whatever you want me to do.

00:55:56.54
Michael Wood
Yes. Yes. That's what that's what it happened. And it it bothered me that she went from like this, like headstrong, like I'm going to go my own way to like, I'll do anything you say, Matthew.

00:55:59.03
Ashmole 783
Yeah.

00:56:07.96
Ashmole 783
yeah

00:56:09.16
Michael Wood
that's my answer.

00:56:11.99
Ashmole 781
Do we think it's all of her own volition, though? Or do we think she's susceptible to the same types of, like, tropey vampire charm? You know, like, how they, like, in other vampire things, like, that they, the people that they kind of woo don't really really even have control.

00:56:29.82
Ashmole 781
Like, do you think there's an element

00:56:30.33
Ashmole 783
like the leer that they have, like this power over them

00:56:32.15
Ashmole 781
Yeah, like is there an element of the fact that like she's just like taken with him so much because of his magic or just because she's...

00:56:41.78
Ashmole 783
I mean, so it's mentioned in the book because like when she's getting all like effed up by that other witch lady who was like, Matthew lied to you and he you fed on on his blood. And she's like, no, I didn't. And she's like, ha ha, do you remember these things? And she's like, oh no, as I did. ah That whole problem that you know arise arose,

00:57:03.10
Ashmole 783
She does mention like, hey, like when you feed off their blood, they kind of have control over you. So and then she's all like, oh my gosh, was this all a lie? And then she quickly goes, not good.

00:57:13.81
Ashmole 783
I'm good. i still love him. So like, I don't know, hard to say.

00:57:16.68
Ashmole 781
Right. Makes you wonder how much it was, but yeah.

00:57:18.71
Ashmole 783
yeah

00:57:22.26
Ashmole 781
i mean, i answered this one just in the sense that I feel like he drives a lot of her personality in the latter half of the book. So um I think her embrace of power was more to do with like that relationship than maybe her own volition of like just self-discovery wanting to like do that.

00:57:42.46
Ashmole 781
I think it was more like he... He said jump and she said how high kind of thing. But I don't know how much of it is like, she's just like voluntarily or if it's, you know, a magical influence ah at at work.

00:57:59.61
Ashmole 781
I don't know. If there was a magical influence at work, it makes it slightly less cringy. Let's just say that.

00:58:05.64
Ashmole 783
I feel like it makes it even more problematic though.

00:58:09.30
Ashmole 781
Problematic 100%, but less cringy for me to not like her.

00:58:10.62
Ashmole 783
But less cringey, yes. Because it's like she didn't... It wasn't of her own volition. But then it makes Matthew like, I don't want them to end up together because that means he's literally gaslighting her.

00:58:15.57
Ashmole 781
Right. Right, yeah.

00:58:19.90
Ashmole 783
So it's like, ugh, you know?

00:58:20.47
Ashmole 781
now

00:58:22.10
Ashmole 783
Can't really... I personally can't root for someone like that. But I know I feel like I'm in the minority there. But... um ah I purely, I think it's purely a reaction to Matthew's influence. And I'm going to literally say exactly what I wrote here. Homegirl doesn't do anything for herself when she meets him. Like she, she really does it. And this is the, the, the beginning of the issues that I have with the book and their relationship as a whole.

00:58:49.40
Ashmole 783
Because I love vampires. I love supernatural. What I don't like is this whole because I'm dating a vampire. There's no such thing, by the way, with alpha and beta and omega. That is not a thing. That study has actually been proven wrong. So it's not a thing, but like, gosh, do we love to use it as a freaking trope when it comes to like vampires and werewolves specifically. It's like, oh, well, Matthew is the head boss man and this little vampire.

00:59:20.86
Ashmole 783
like and so you have to listen to what he says. And like, he's, you know, you like, oh God, even ah the like his mom's like the first hand, like bitch, you made him like, what are, what is happening here? like You... Last I checked, in the vampire hierarchy, if you if you sire someone, you're the one who's the head, not his ass. Like, what are what is happening? But anyways... Yeah, no. 100%. It's due to him. And it it bothers me because it's like she... I feel like...

00:59:59.06
Ashmole 783
Part of the issue is, she it's not like that she was actively rejecting her heritage, because we actually learned that she's been using magic this whole time. She just wasn't aware that she was doing it.

01:00:10.62
Ashmole 783
It's the fact...

01:00:10.75
Ashmole 781
Or she was doing it by accident. It was like, she like...

01:00:12.25
Ashmole 783
Right, right. She was accidentally doing it. Like, she wasn't aware that she was doing all of this stuff. And Matthew's like, um, actually, I just watched you pull a book down without doing, like, it's magic. Like, you wish for that shit came to you. So it's like, oh, whoops. But, like,

01:00:29.05
Ashmole 783
I don't think... I feel like we learned that she wasn't actually actively rejecting it on purpose. Her parents tied up her power so she couldn't use it because she is so powerful and they were afraid that the witches that are after...

01:00:46.78
Ashmole 783
her powers were going to kill her because of it. And so her parents thinking this is the only way they could save her is to pretty much lock up her power. So she couldn't use them. And so it's like, and and pretty much gave her like PTSD for using it, you know? And so after learning that it's like, Oh, okay. Like she wasn't actively being like, no, no, I don't want to do it. Like it was implanted in her to do that. But like the problem is,

01:01:15.13
Ashmole 783
she didn't want to learn magic for herself. It came from the part of Matthew being like, you need to learn this because like you need to protect yourself and you need to learn how to do all this because of a B and C. And then she's like, oh, okay. It didn't come from her being like, hey, now that I learned magic, That, in fact, it was my parents that locked up my powers. I actually want to learn how to do this. In fact, I feel like she's still kind of begrudgingly. was like, man, I don't want to until homeboy almost dies. And then she's like, the only way I can protect him is if I learn to use my powers. And it's like, that's the only one?

01:01:55.86
Ashmole 783
Not anything else? Like, what happened to, like, I don't know, self-preservation? Like, you don't care to help yourself out? It's because he's in trouble? Okay. But, you know, I digress.

01:02:07.99
Michael Wood
Listeners, as you can tell, Barbara has no feelings about this question at all.

01:02:10.65
Ashmole 783
I have very strong opinions. Very strong.

01:02:12.38
Michael Wood
yeah

01:02:15.59
Michael Wood
Let's move on to our next one that she'll probably have just as many feelings about. um Matthew is protective to the point of being overbearing. Is their relationship romantic or does it lean into problematic territory regarding consent and autonomy?

01:02:30.71
Ashmole 781
I feel like it's problematic 100%. I think she doesn't have a sense of self, which we've already discussed, outside of him by the end of the book. um I understand that this is a popular trope.

01:02:41.90
Ashmole 781
Like, it's very, it's very Shadow Daddy trope-y, like, and that's...

01:02:48.06
Ashmole 783
Shadow Daddy. I love that.

01:02:49.66
Ashmole 781
That's like a full, like, you know, for the book talk girlies, like the smut girlies, is the very smut girlies, like all of that.

01:02:51.79
Ashmole 783
It's a thing. It's a genre, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:02:59.42
Ashmole 781
It's a thing. People enjoy it.

01:03:00.46
Ashmole 783
Mm-hmm.

01:03:02.55
Ashmole 781
People enjoy the, even like the consent and autonomy things, which is weird. I'll never, um that'll never do it for me, but it does for a lot of people. So I'm probably in the minority when it comes to like,

01:03:14.93
Ashmole 781
book talk people anyway um so yeah i understand it's a it's a popular trope it does not do it for me it probably never will um i like i like uh to have females have their own autonomy and their own um personalities and then kind of their partner whether male female or otherwise like is complementary to that and not like i don't know the the source i guess so yeah

01:03:45.21
Ashmole 783
Yeah, i obviously, if it hasn't been apparent, I find this type of a relationship super problematic. i don't find this romantic at all, but I also understand I'm not, am I in the minority? I'm not really sure. But obviously there is this trope and this genre of of novels or shows or like what whatever you want to say like it's a thing like people actively are searching and and reading these two I'm gonna stick strictly to just like books since that's what we're talking about so like it's a thing like there is a genre for this these types of relationships and I'm not trying to discredit people who like that like that's your thing I just find it super problematic if you can't distinguish between

01:04:44.86
Ashmole 783
What reality is. And what fantasy is. Because like if you like reading that stuff. That's i find that's fine. I think where the issue is. Where it bleeds into your real life. And you find yourself in this type of relationship. And I don't care who you are. I don't find that...

01:05:04.86
Ashmole 783
healthy, personally. um And like Lauren mentioned, it's not even an issue with man versus woman. Like, if it's two guys, two...

01:05:18.33
Ashmole 783
women uh to they's thems like you should not have that type of relationship personally i think so i don't like reading about it i don't think it's sexy when he's being overbearing and quote-unquote protective because i don't find that protective um and so once I think that's the probably the biggest issue I had with this part of the book. Because it's like when we go back to his home, he really starts acting this way. like It's like he let his red flag fly at this point. And he was like, you need to listen the...

01:06:01.05
Ashmole 783
alpha in the house and so what I say goes and literally everyone else in his family is telling her that she has to listen to him and like even like Michael mentions like his mom is like oh Matthew always liked ah oh well what does she say not broken things fragile things like he's always liked fragile things like that means he likes you because you're fragile and what does that say about

01:06:17.67
Michael Wood
Fragile things.

01:06:27.90
Ashmole 781
She wasn't fragile before he got hurt to her.

01:06:30.52
Ashmole 783
Right. And then it's funny because later he's all like, oh, you're so stronger than I am. And it's like, do you actually believe that? Because it doesn't seem like you do. You know, like you can say whatever you want, but your actions are proving it quite, quite differently. But ah so, yeah, I think, I think that's a problem because I don't think anyone should have complete and utter power over anyone else, regardless of the relationship.

01:06:55.83
Ashmole 781
Well, think that there's a clear distinction that at least I want to make that there can be a ah healthy relationship where sexually, like, that's what they're into.

01:06:59.38
Ashmole 783
Mm hmm.

01:07:05.78
Ashmole 783
Oh, 100%.

01:07:06.52
Ashmole 781
But, like, they have full autonomy in their actual life.

01:07:06.60
Ashmole 783
Right.

01:07:09.74
Ashmole 781
That is healthy. What i what we're saying isn't healthy is, like, if that's actually how the whole relationship is.

01:07:14.36
Ashmole 783
Right, I'm not talking, like, I'm not trying to sex shame anyone. Like, if that's, that in the bed like in the bedroom, that's that's you. Like, that is the whole thing.

01:07:23.73
Ashmole 781
Right.

01:07:24.52
Ashmole 783
I understand that. I am not trying to to shame anyone in that aspect. I think, once again, once it bleeds into normal life, if it goes in and then... Like, you want to eat a piece of apple, this person slaps you in the face and goes, nah, you're going to have celery instead.

01:07:39.93
Ashmole 783
Like, no, that's where we have a problem. Like, it's, you know, and i feel obviously he didn't do that, but he was 100% asserting his dominance over her at certain points.

01:07:49.75
Ashmole 781
And just overbearing it He was like overbearing in all the categories It wasn't like a Oh this is to speak kink Like this is a He's like that's their whole relationship Which is problematic

01:07:53.08
Ashmole 783
Yes. Yes.

01:07:58.99
Ashmole 783
Right. Right. Because he's like you need to look like, you need to listen to me, blah, blah, blah. So that's that's what I'm talking about. Like Laura mentioned, I am not talking about in the bedroom because like, go off, people. Like, you do you. I love, I genuinely love that for you.

01:08:14.07
Ashmole 783
and That's not what we're discussing here. Because actually in the bedroom, he's very passive. but

01:08:19.76
Ashmole 781
Right, yeah.

01:08:20.15
Ashmole 783
but

01:08:20.35
Ashmole 781
I just wanted to make that distinction so we don't get some internet hate of like, oh, women can be bondaged.

01:08:23.45
Ashmole 783
Oh, yes, yes.

01:08:26.56
Ashmole 781
It's like, yeah, do your thing.

01:08:27.38
Ashmole 783
No, but it's funny because like I feel like BDSM...

01:08:28.35
Ashmole 781
it's

01:08:30.58
Ashmole 783
like I'm totally going to get in a tangent here, but it's fine. It's my podcast. I can do whatever want. um like the beat it's what If you're actually in the BDSM community, like they have such strong...

01:08:40.66
Ashmole 783
like consent boundaries that you wouldn't, because that's the whole point.

01:08:42.59
Ashmole 781
Boundaries. Yeah.

01:08:47.22
Ashmole 783
Like you have to kind of communicate if you're going to do that kind of stuff. Like that's the whole point, you know? So it's not like people, i think that was like the whole issue that a lot of people, I think if I'm not mistaken, the BDSM community had when these kinds of books started sprouting out that they were getting a bad rep because they're like, where's the consent in these stuff?

01:09:07.28
Ashmole 783
That's not how this is.

01:09:08.06
Ashmole 781
Right.

01:09:08.44
Ashmole 783
You know, this is how it goes down.

01:09:08.79
Ashmole 781
Yeah.

01:09:10.24
Ashmole 783
So yeah.

01:09:11.10
Ashmole 781
Yes.

01:09:11.52
Ashmole 783
Anywho, tangent done.

01:09:14.10
Ashmole 781
Michael, what are your thoughts?

01:09:14.90
Ashmole 783
Yeah, Michael's up.

01:09:16.09
Michael Wood
I have nothing to add to this one, actually. i think you guys have have hammered out the the answers to this question. I have nothing to add, we can move on to the next question.

01:09:27.22
Michael Wood
Most of this book is told from Diana's perspective, yet a few chapters are written in third person. Why? What feature or purpose unites those chapters?

01:09:37.75
Ashmole 783
So the third person perspective that we get is of Matthew. And if if I'm not mistaken, it's like roughly maybe five or six chapters. It's not a lot of chapters.

01:09:53.43
Ashmole 783
But ive I actually wish we would have gotten more of these third-person chapters. And not necessarily just from his point of view. I kind of wish we would have gotten it from like other characters. But I feel like if that's the case, it would have made a so already kind of congested, I feel like, a congested story even more so. So I understand why we didn't.

01:10:18.15
Ashmole 783
I think it's just to kind of bridge that gap of what is happening outside of Diana at times. um Especially like in the beginning, it was kind of like when he's like breaking into her.

01:10:32.47
Ashmole 783
i don't know if it's her office or her living quarters. I think it's her living quarters that he breaks into.

01:10:36.44
Ashmole 781
Yeah, it's definitely, there's a bed. That's like where she's living.

01:10:38.78
Ashmole 783
Yeah, so it's her living quarters, once again problematic, ah but that tends to be a trope for vampires. They just kind of go where they please, and then yet they're the ones in this book that have a problem with people doing that to them. So it's kind of ironic if you ask me, but here we are.

01:10:52.70
Ashmole 783
ah So so i feel like it's just kind of bridging a gap of the story because obviously we as readers know what's going on with Matthew, but like Diana doesn't know that these things are happening. Especially, i feel like, I think the most...

01:11:10.46
Ashmole 783
poit Poignant? poignant part Thank you. Yeah, strong. It's a hard ah hard word for Elmo there. That this chapter that we get to see that is when Diana, it's getting tortured by that other witch. We get what's happening with Matthew and how he's like desperately trying to find her and then kind of like...

01:11:34.74
Ashmole 783
his relationship, because that's where his brother comes in, Baldwin. And so we kind of see like that going on. Because if we just had her point of view, you would just be like, she's conked out.

01:11:46.30
Ashmole 783
And then magically there he is. And it's kind of like, well, how did we get here? And I feel like it it's done well. i kind of just wish we had more of it. Because no offense to Diana. Once again, like I mentioned, i was like towards the end, I was not a fan of reading her point of view.

01:12:08.60
Michael Wood
Yeah, kind of right there with you on that. I really enjoyed the third-person chapters. i think that, like I think Barbara mentioned, a lot of this book came out in 2011, and the first-person perspective was definitely much more popular at that time.

01:12:23.29
Michael Wood
ah But I think that I might have liked this book better if it was more in third-person and less in Diana's, or if it was even, let's just keep it in first-person, but from multiple perspectives, um would have been different. So I enjoyed the third person chapters. I thought that added a really unique perspective to the, the book and the story. Um, and I could have done with more of them.

01:12:47.11
Michael Wood
So,

01:12:49.61
Ashmole 781
Well, somehow I didn't even clock this with the audiobook. My brain just like, I don't know.

01:12:54.02
Ashmole 783
That's funny.

01:12:56.28
Ashmole 781
um

01:12:56.70
Ashmole 783
ah

01:12:57.50
Ashmole 781
I can't really analyze it too much because I think it was just fluid enough with the audiobook that I wasn't really paying that much attention to which chapters were... didn't

01:13:05.85
Ashmole 783
That's funny. I mean,

01:13:06.62
Michael Wood
Lauren's question was like, what? Third-person chapters?

01:13:08.98
Ashmole 781
want say, wait, what?

01:13:10.52
Ashmole 783
does does that mean she did a good enough job where you didn't even notice that?

01:13:10.68
Ashmole 781
But also half the time...

01:13:14.76
Ashmole 783
Like, is that?

01:13:15.12
Ashmole 781
I think I didn't notice. But I think also half the time when I'm listening, like I've got kids in the background and like I'm so, um yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

01:13:17.21
Ashmole 783
Hmm.

01:13:26.27
Ashmole 781
I guess we'll take a pass on this one.

01:13:35.10
Michael Wood
Well, all right, moving on to our next question. Diana and Matthew travel back to the 16th century. If you had the power to time walk as she does, what period in history would you visit?

01:13:47.35
Michael Wood
um What an interesting question. um He says, knowing he wrote the question. I

01:13:54.10
Ashmole 783
Those are always my fun. It's like, let me pat myself in the back a little. heat

01:13:58.23
Michael Wood
knew had to get ahead of it because I saw like the look on your face. i was like, she's going to say it. Yeah.

01:14:02.04
Ashmole 783
No, no, I bit my tongue.

01:14:04.82
Michael Wood
I mean, this is hard because I feel like I love history and I would want it as time walk everywhere, not to like be a problem and insert myself in history, but like just to kind of be like ah an observer, a passive observer of what's going on.

01:14:17.56
Michael Wood
Um, ancient Rome is the first thing that comes to mind. i think it'd be fascinating to see some of the technology that they had, um, ancient Greece to go into the library of Alexandria before it got destroyed.

01:14:30.62
Michael Wood
Um, and look at all the crazy knowledge. I'd have to learn Greek, I guess, before making that trip so I could read anything in the library. But um yeah, I mean, and anywhere, really. Anywhere would be fascinating. were going to say, Barbara?

01:14:45.05
Ashmole 783
I was just going to mention, like, if we have the technology where you can time walk, there's probably something that could help you with that. But i'm just being facetious.

01:14:52.09
Michael Wood
Probably. That's true. There's probably some technology just lets me read it without an issue. Valid point.

01:15:01.21
Ashmole 781
I enjoyed the time walking elements of the the book. I wish there was more of that, I guess. um If I could time walk, I feel similarly to Michael. Just like there are lots of different times that I think would be fun to drop into and be able to like just be a fly on the wall and see. I've always thought that the ah Roaring Twenties would be intriguing if you could avoid all the obvious problematic elements at that time. um But i think that would be intriguing. I think ancient Greece would be awesome. I think maybe I'd go peep some dinos too, you know?

01:15:32.80
Ashmole 781
don't know. for funsies.

01:15:36.31
Ashmole 783
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with what you guys have said. I i think the time walking was really interesting. i It's hard for me to say like, oh, what time period you would want to choose? Because i'm i would want to visit all of them personally. I think it would be so fascinating to see all of them that ah that if I physically could, you know, I definitely would want to do that. The only issue that always I feel like i always run into is the whole fact like, how do you go back to these times without...

01:16:13.18
Ashmole 783
running into issues if like you're a woman of color because for the longest time we're still seen as kind of not, you know,

01:16:25.91
Ashmole 783
you know, i mean, I don't have to say it. So it's, this it's just one of those things. Like, how do you resolve that issue? Like, do you resolve that issue? Is that a thing? I want to i don't know. But like, if if I could remove that aspect of that that problem. Oh, of course, I i i might not enjoy I mean, I feel like it's important to like see all that kind of stuff. And I think it would just be so fascinating to see all that stuff for sure. And it's funny cause it harkens to this. I read this time traveling book that I still think it was so cool. Like they created time traveling, but like the way they created it was like, you had to be silent observers. It was literally just to record history. That's why they did it. Not to try to change it. But ah you know, the bad guy is the one who's like, nah, I'm going to change it. So like that turns into a thing, but like,

01:17:19.80
Ashmole 783
the The reason they did it was to study history. And then they were like, they had kind of like the the library of like history of all of it, the good, the bad, the ugly, all all of it. So I thought that was always really interesting. I think that would be cool, but we're humans and we're going meddle. So probably a good thing that we can't.

01:17:41.22
Michael Wood
That's probably true, because, yeah, somebody would meddle.

01:17:45.56
Michael Wood
All right, next question. In chapter 31, Diana remembers the bedtime story her mother told her as a child. In what ways does that story foreshadow the events of Diana's life?

01:18:04.72
Ashmole 781
I felt like it was entirely foreshadowing. There wasn't a lot left to the imagination, but that was just my take.

01:18:13.72
Ashmole 783
Yeah, it's literally her mom telling her exactly what's going to happen to her. Like, if you paid attention to the story, and obviously, like, we only got bits and parts of it, because God forbid we learn more about the foreshadowing, because it's right there on the page, you know, as an author, I feel like that would be kind of crappy if you're like, and this is what's going to happen. So, but yeah, essentially, her mom, I guess, pretty much knew, I wouldn't say like ingrained details, but like overall outline, story plot, what's going to happen to her. And if I'm not mistaken, she mentions the Shadow Man, i think is what he's called. And it's like, you just have to wait for your man for your your little knight and shining in armor. And I just like, oh, great. So happy for you.

01:18:58.84
Michael Wood
Barbara totally rolled her eyes when she read that story. I just know it. I don't have anything else to add. it's It is. it's It's exactly what happens to her. It is 100% foreshadowing. It was an interesting way to look at it from Diana's perspective to kind of from a first person thing, have her have that aha moment at the same time that the reader does as she's thinking back about that that bedtime story that she was told. So that that part of it was kind of interesting.

01:19:22.40
Ashmole 781
As a side note, though, and a parent of girls, well, now and a boy, but I do appreciate that movies and storylines are shifting from the knight in shining armor, like you have to have, like, this is your destiny is to get saved by the prince or whatever, to, like, other plots.

01:19:41.46
Ashmole 783
Right.

01:19:41.45
Ashmole 781
That's so that's that's a nice...

01:19:42.36
Ashmole 783
Like, you yourself can save yourself.

01:19:43.86
Ashmole 781
but Right, yes, I...

01:19:45.08
Michael Wood
And you you do not need prince.

01:19:45.56
Ashmole 783
Yeah.

01:19:47.80
Michael Wood
Yeah. All

01:19:48.15
Ashmole 781
You do not have to wait on Prince Charming or whatever the hell you want to say.

01:19:48.53
Ashmole 783
Yeah. Exactly.

01:19:50.97
Ashmole 783
Exactly.

01:19:52.48
Ashmole 781
Anyway.

01:19:55.32
Michael Wood
right, next question. Harkness presents the use of witchcraft not only as an otherworldly ability, but also as a part of everyday life. For example, Diana uses a spell to fix her washing machine. Which example of the novel's blending of the magical with the mundane did you find most entertaining or creative? And if you could use magic in your daily life, what would you use it for?

01:20:15.54
Ashmole 783
So I'm not sure, like, did I find it entertaining? Like, yes, the little tidbits that we did get. Was it creative? I don't think she's the first one to mention this, that witches have these powers. Like, I don't i think i don't think this is a novel idea. Like, that kind of tends to be a thing because it's like...

01:20:36.41
Ashmole 783
that's the best I feel like. Like, yes, controlling the weather and, like, fire and water and wind, like, in theory sounds amazing. But, like, if I'm just thinking of, like, me, myself, and I, and, like, what would make me happy was be, like, doing all the mundane tasks of life. Like...

01:20:54.33
Ashmole 783
I snap my finger, say a couple of words, and I have food in my face. Like, you're someone's cleaning for me, and I don't have to do that. So then I can do other stuff that I would actually want to do. Or, like, fixing things, if you think about it, that would be great. Like...

01:21:09.94
Ashmole 783
i'm saving time in that regard like yes I would love to fly are you kidding me that would be amazing like do I want to shoot a fiery bow and arrow at some asshole of course but like in a day to day life like these little things would be great I don't find like the little that we got of it was cool to see Especially when she's like, I want butter and the butter just like smacks her in the face and is like, here you are, bitch.

01:21:35.09
Ashmole 783
Like, that's great. Like, that would be amazing, you know?

01:21:38.26
Ashmole 781
Thank you.

01:21:38.65
Ashmole 783
ah So, like, it was entertaining in that regard. Creative, i don't really find it It wasn't, like I said, a novel idea, but not to discredit her. It was fun to see.

01:21:55.86
Michael Wood
I've got to follow that. um so so yes, i mean i found it was... In some of these books, you always see them using magic just for like the epic stuff, right? And so it was cool to see the use of magic for, ah like the question said, the more mundane. I'm also with Barbara. I would absolutely be using my magic to do my laundry and clean my house and cook fantastic meals.

01:22:22.40
Michael Wood
I'd just be, for D&D reference, I'd be casting Unseen Servant all the time and have it just do whatever my bidding was. um So yeah, 100%.

01:22:33.34
Ashmole 781
Agreed. i enjoyed it. If I could use magic in daily life, I would never do dishes or laundry ever again. i would... i enjoy cooking, so I would still want to cook some, but like on nights that I didn't feel like cooking, I wouldn't have to cook.

01:22:48.49
Ashmole 781
Cleaning, can My house would be so clean. I would also, you know, i could benefit from a snack bitch for my kids in the car. me say that on here. ah You know, like, like the little, I need a snack. I need you to open this. I need my toy. Mom, mom.

01:23:04.26
Ashmole 783
You would just have someone there who open packages for your children.

01:23:07.27
Ashmole 781
I would just, yeah, either that or like my, I could just magically, you know, just like, you know, throw it at

01:23:08.58
Ashmole 783
ah

01:23:14.95
Ashmole 783
Here's your dang gummy bear. Shut up. but Right?

01:23:17.18
Ashmole 781
no take

01:23:18.78
Ashmole 783
Like I said, smacking them in the face. Like, the butter was amazing.

01:23:20.98
Ashmole 781
it just it would just fall in their laps you know and then I would have to like put my shoulder out of its socket trying to reach out on the car seat while driving yeah there's lots of practical uses I can think of

01:23:31.45
Michael Wood
ah

01:23:31.95
Ashmole 783
While driving. Oh no. ah

01:23:40.53
Michael Wood
All right, so our next question is going to be interesting. So this is a question, I'll just say before I ask it, that was provided by the author, and that's why I picked it. I picked it because I didn't fully understand the meaning, and I was hoping one of you two did, but I'm looking, and your answers are both like, i don't know what this means.

01:23:59.02
Ashmole 781
I don't know.

01:24:00.18
Michael Wood
So maybe we can talk about it together and figure it out. um If you look at the last page of the book, what is the significance of the blood and mercury? What is the reason?

01:24:10.58
Michael Wood
behind the sense of relief felt in the house, and what does the last sentence of the book mean? Which, hold on, if you give me just a moment, I will read the last sentence for you.

01:24:19.33
Ashmole 781
Well, why don't you dive in for us, Michael? Yeah.

01:24:24.73
Michael Wood
Bear with me a moment. And I know neither of you mind bearing with me a moment because you don't know how to answer this question, so...

01:24:33.19
Ashmole 783
Well, I'll be editing this.

01:24:35.77
Michael Wood
Barbara's like, I'll be cutting this out.

01:24:37.37
Ashmole 783
Yes. The pausing and waiting is not good for a podcast, so.

01:24:42.30
Michael Wood
And here is the last sentence of the book. What we've always done, Joanna, Bridget replied, remember the past and await the future.

01:24:54.47
Ashmole 783
Mm-hmm.

01:24:55.42
Michael Wood
What does it mean? I don't know. I literally said I put this in because I thought you guys maybe would have understood the semblance of this, and I didn't.

01:25:01.91
Ashmole 781
not really remember the past and don't wait for the future i mean that's pretty like self-explanatory i don't know

01:25:02.10
Michael Wood
I didn't get it.

01:25:09.78
Michael Wood
I mean, I think the reason for the relief is that the you know Diana and Matthew were able to escape back in time. um But i do either of you understand the significance of the blood and mercury that was talked about there?

01:25:24.41
Michael Wood
No?

01:25:24.60
Ashmole 783
No, it's alchemical properties and it's like, I haven't studied this crap for like years.

01:25:24.57
Ashmole 781
not really

01:25:30.30
Ashmole 783
That's the problem. Because like they mentioned like to create a ah silver and gold or something. like I remember silver and gold being mentioned, mercury being mentioned, like the whole like alchemical stuff that they were talking about.

01:25:48.62
Ashmole 783
That's the problem. like When I read this, think three times when like I saw that and I was still like, I am so lost. I have no idea.

01:25:59.52
Michael Wood
All right. I've got an idea.

01:26:02.81
Ashmole 783
Google.

01:26:03.03
Michael Wood
thanks thanks Thanks, Internet. um In alchemy, mercury and blood are considered highly potent dual-natured substances representing the spiritual and physical components of transformation, often used to create the elixir of life or the philosopher's stone.

01:26:09.31
Ashmole 783
Yeah.

01:26:11.00
Ashmole 781
okay

01:26:14.55
Ashmole 783
There we go.

01:26:19.30
Ashmole 783
Cooper Stone. I was gonna mention that, but I thought I was off base and I didn't want sound stupid.

01:26:23.06
Michael Wood
You weren't. You were right on it, Barbara.

01:26:24.30
Ashmole 783
Darn.

01:26:24.86
Michael Wood
You nailed it You would have nailed it.

01:26:25.24
Ashmole 783
I knew it. because I've read kind of...

01:26:26.81
Michael Wood
Mercury is viewed as the spirit or formless principle, while blood is often equated with the soul, red life force, or sulfur.

01:26:28.88
Ashmole 783
Uh-huh.

01:26:34.23
Ashmole 783
So obviously they're talking about Diana and Matthew, right? Like he's the blood and she's the mercury is what the, what i was taking away from it.

01:26:42.84
Michael Wood
Yep.

01:26:42.93
Ashmole 783
Uh, and like I mentioned, like it's the alchemy aspect of it. Cause I have read quite a few stuff about the philosopher stone and that whole thing. And, um, He's a real person. What's his name?

01:26:53.30
Ashmole 783
Nicholas Flamel and that whole aspect of it. I've always found that very intriguing. Like it goes way over my little head. It's not like I'm like, oh my gosh, I understand. I just enjoy it. I think it's such an interesting, yeah, it's fascinating.

01:27:02.57
Michael Wood
fascinating

01:27:05.27
Ashmole 783
um But yeah, like I, that's what I was assuming, but I wasn't like whole, plus to the overall plot, like, is it just, I don't know. Like, what? Yeah. transformation. It's like, is there are we talking about their future children? I'm assuming that's the case. Who's to know?

01:27:23.16
Michael Wood
probably

01:27:24.02
Ashmole 783
No.

01:27:27.28
Michael Wood
Lauren, anything else to add on that that topic?

01:27:30.10
Ashmole 781
Now it sounds like Barbara nailed him

01:27:31.24
Michael Wood
No? OK. All right, well, let's wrap this up. Let's do our final question. Those you looking at the notes are like, what are you talking about, Michael? There's two questions left. I'm going to make them one question. So what did you think of the ending?

01:27:43.26
Michael Wood
And do you think you'll read the next books in this series?

01:27:50.34
Ashmole 781
it. I felt like the ending was fine. I think it closed enough loops to be satisfying while leaving enough open to make you want to read the next one. in general um I would be curious to see what happens next but like it's not jumping to the top of my TBR like I got a lot of books that I want to read and like this one I'm adding it to my TBR like I may finish the series eventually but it's not like it wasn't like something that the type of cliffhanger that I'm like I gotta know like right now what happens next so

01:28:22.87
Ashmole 783
Yeah, i think it wrapped up the ending. I think it wrapped up some of the questions we had, but obviously gave us like more questions than answers because it's a trilogy. So if you don't do that, then issues. But as far as like calling this a cliffhanger, I don't know if y'all know what the definition of a cliffhanger is, but like I don't find this a cliffhanger. I think it wrapped up...

01:28:49.40
Ashmole 783
Part one of the story, I think, nicely. Like I said, it still has these questions that, you know, we we need answered and even more questions. But overall, I wouldn't consider a cliffhanger, personally. as far as what I read, the next books in the series.

01:29:08.31
Ashmole 783
Hard to say. I think if the second book is just about Diana and Matthew and their love for each other... um I don't think I want to read that, personally. That's the aspect that I did not enjoy about it.

01:29:23.67
Ashmole 783
If we get less of that, and then and more of like the world building, and like the witch's powers, and heck, even like vampire stuff, or poor little demons that kind of got like brushed aside, if we learn more about all of that,

01:29:40.28
Ashmole 783
then I would be willing to pick it up. But like Lauren mentioned, I i have ah easily like a hundred books I want to read and it's not, yeah, easily a thousand and it's not broaching like the first thousand.

01:29:50.06
Michael Wood
A thousand. She has a thousand books.

01:29:55.27
Ashmole 783
So, you know, oops.

01:30:00.47
Michael Wood
I mean, I kind of agree with both of you guys on the ending. i think that it wrapped up some things, but left enough open, which makes sense because it is the beginning of it. It's not like it was like a book that she wrote and then was like, I think I'll make this a trilogy. like This was clearly a planned first part of a trilogy.

01:30:13.91
Michael Wood
um I also agree with Barbara that I don't think it was as cliffhanger as some people acted like it was. um as far as if I think I'll read the next books in the series I think that if you had asked me that question when I was in the middle part that I hated i would have said I don't even want to finish this book so no but I think that after finishing it and initially my reaction was the same as Barbara's that oh it's the second book just about like them being like oh Matthew I'll do anything for you Matthew oh my god but in the 1600s that I don't care But then Barbara and I watched the trailer for the TV series for the first season.

01:30:52.92
Michael Wood
And then we also watched the trailer for the second season because the second season is based on a second book. And that actually made me more interested to read the book because there's all these actual real life historical figures that are clearly part of a story, which shouldn't be surprising because she did that in the first book.

01:31:06.01
Michael Wood
And that makes me interested a little bit. So like Lauren, it's on my TBR list, but also like Lauren, it's not jumping anywhere near the top. Maybe someday.

01:31:15.74
Ashmole 783
So what you're saying is we need to find that someone created an outline where we can skip the chapters where it's just about their relationship and get to the good parts.

01:31:24.73
Ashmole 781
There you go.

01:31:25.54
Ashmole 783
If that is, ah yes, like I'm okay with that.

01:31:26.04
Michael Wood
And just read historical fiction. I'm in. Yeah.

01:31:29.54
Ashmole 783
Like we get to a part where she's learning to do her magic. I want to read those chapters. And then we get back to like their issues and their love life.

01:31:33.93
Michael Wood
Yeah.

01:31:36.18
Ashmole 783
I'd be like, eh, next. So if there's an outline out there, hook us this up.

01:31:37.99
Michael Wood
Yep. Yep.

01:31:41.34
Michael Wood
I'm with you. I'm with you on that for sure.

01:31:43.48
Ashmole 783
That's terrible of me to say, but here we are.

01:31:47.42
Michael Wood
Guys, we made it to the end of another podcast. Let's talk about our individual scores.

01:31:51.03
Ashmole 781
I'm curious how Michael's individual score and how he's going to justify it when at the beginning he said he would not recommend this book to anybody but then he

01:31:59.64
Michael Wood
I could have personal feelings about it. You know what? I'll talk about this when I talk about my individual score. But Barbara's first. So, Barbara, what did you give it?

01:32:06.62
Ashmole 783
Well, it's weird because the notes here says the black phone and that's kind of ah that's not the book that we read.

01:32:11.22
Michael Wood
Oh, no.

01:32:12.15
Ashmole 783
ah Sorry, I had to point it out. I gave it a seven. And I feel like I've given plenty of reasons why that is. So I gave it a solid seven, you know.

01:32:27.93
Michael Wood
I also gave it a seven because by the end of the book, I liked it. I did say earlier, as Lauren just pointed out, that I wouldn't recommend the book. And I think that that's exclusively because I hated the book in the middle.

01:32:41.08
Michael Wood
Like if if we had been doing this podcast and talking about like our half at the halfway point, my rating would have been like a two out of 10.

01:32:49.27
Ashmole 783
Wouldn't it be interesting if we start recording like the beginning, our little thoughts first, the in ah the middle and then the end, just to see how like rollercoastery it is.

01:32:59.58
Ashmole 783
I would be curious about that. Cause like my stuff, I, yeah, right.

01:33:01.75
Michael Wood
That would have been really interesting for this one.

01:33:04.06
Ashmole 783
That's what I'm saying. Oh, excuse me. i feel like the middle one, I'd be like, i hate this so much.

01:33:10.42
Michael Wood
But I ended up giving this one a seven because I did like the story at the end. I really just didn't like the middle part that was all about the, um you know, Diana bowing down to Matthew and him saying, but no, Diana, I will have sex with you. he Like, it's just, it was dumb.

01:33:28.44
Ashmole 783
Mind you mind you they literally meet and fall in love and she literally almost kills herself so he doesn't die within two weeks.

01:33:28.50
Michael Wood
ah That's,

01:33:40.89
Ashmole 783
Like, this this is not a long, like, moment here.

01:33:41.51
Michael Wood
Yep.

01:33:43.86
Michael Wood
Not a long book.

01:33:44.57
Ashmole 783
Like, I think, I think overall they actually, like, know each other for about a month. And it it's like, what? You're willing to give up your life to a a vampire, mind you, who's lived thousands of years, who's lived a very plentiful life.

01:33:54.25
Ashmole 781
That's

01:34:01.94
Ashmole 783
But okay, sure, go off, queen.

01:34:03.91
Michael Wood
Yeah, I think that's about right. Anyway, Lauren, what did you give the book?

01:34:08.02
Ashmole 781
gave it a seven. i was going to give it a six and a half, but I wanted to make the math easy for Michael. think there's

01:34:14.20
Ashmole 783
I love how we all agree. I think this is the first time that we all agreed on a score. Is it not?

01:34:19.50
Ashmole 781
been maybe one...

01:34:19.70
Michael Wood
Ever. first um First time ever.

01:34:20.41
Ashmole 783
Ever. Ever.

01:34:22.39
Michael Wood
I think ever.

01:34:22.49
Ashmole 781
and yeah I thought that there's been at least one other time but yes I gave it a seven like Barbara we said for reasons that i've already talked about I enjoyed the book I enjoyed the characters there were problematic aspects for sure but I thought her writing was really good so yeah okay

01:34:23.11
Michael Wood
I'm going look now.

01:34:39.00
Ashmole 783
Yeah. i So originally i was going to give it a lower score, but I thought about it and I was like, you know what, like...

01:34:47.63
Ashmole 783
don't I didn't have a problem with her writing style at all. Actually, I i quite enjoyed. like I think it's one of those things where it's like, if I have a problem with the writing style, I notice it right away and it freaking irks me the whole rest of the book. Versus if I don't have a problem with the writing style, it's one of those things that's like, oh, this is nice little cherry on top type thing where you just don't notice. And I have to like...

01:35:09.72
Ashmole 783
bring myself and be like, you know what? Like generally speaking, like she's very knowledgeable. I think it's well written in that regard. Like it's not hard to read except when she starts really getting into like the philosophy aspects.

01:35:22.64
Ashmole 783
And sometimes I've kind of like quickly read over that, but like in general, like she's, it's well written. Like I don't have complaints about that. and So I can't just be like a five because it's not that bad of a book.

01:35:36.46
Ashmole 783
Even if I don't,

01:35:36.94
Michael Wood
Right. And honestly, for for it being her first book, too, like, yeah.

01:35:40.06
Ashmole 783
That's what I'm saying. like i is ah When I realized that this was her first novel, I was shocked. I thought that she had been writing for years and this was just the first one of a series, a new series for her.

01:35:45.50
Ashmole 781
I didn't realize that.

01:35:52.37
Ashmole 783
i was fla My gases were flabbered because i i didn't i this does not read like a first novel to me.

01:35:59.88
Michael Wood
Mm-mm.

01:36:00.14
Ashmole 783
Like there are some, don't get me wrong.

01:36:00.98
Michael Wood
Mm-mm.

01:36:01.69
Ashmole 781
does not.

01:36:02.62
Ashmole 783
I have read some novels that I fricking love, but I was just like, yeah, you can tell this is a first novel. Like you, this needs to be polished a little bit better.

01:36:12.98
Michael Wood
Also, lauren Lauren has better memory than we do, Barbara. There are so many books that we've given all three the same score.

01:36:19.02
Ashmole 783
Oh no, really?

01:36:19.65
Michael Wood
Yeah.

01:36:20.39
Ashmole 781
There's been at least a handful of times.

01:36:22.58
Michael Wood
Just a couple of them. Legends and Lattes, we all gave it a nine.

01:36:25.66
Ashmole 783
poor

01:36:25.98
Michael Wood
um Under the Whispering Door, all eights.

01:36:26.42
Ashmole 781
And that was my highest score.

01:36:28.98
Ashmole 783
Oh, this is the first one of the season.

01:36:29.62
Michael Wood
um couple There was Dark Matter, also all eights.

01:36:31.68
Ashmole 783
Ha ha.

01:36:32.90
Michael Wood
It is the first one this season, but that's also because this is the first one Lauren's been here for.

01:36:33.62
Ashmole 783
Yeah. Yeah. That's. Oh, dang.

01:36:37.43
Ashmole 781
well now

01:36:38.68
Ashmole 783
ah Oh, no.

01:36:39.97
Ashmole 781
accounts

01:36:40.44
Ashmole 783
Yeah. Still count. Still count. but

01:36:45.85
Michael Wood
Anyway, we have once again reached the end of a podcast. Make sure you're following Badass Literature for free in your favorite podcast app. Give us a rating and leave us a review if they let you. Also, don't forget to follow us on social media. Our handle is at Badass Lit Pod on Instagram and Facebook.

01:37:03.16
Michael Wood
Barbara, bring us home.

01:37:04.52
Ashmole 783
Don't we have a Goodreads account that you want to plug into?

01:37:08.42
Michael Wood
It's the same handle on Goodreads, Badass Lit Pod. Now, Barbara, bring us home.

01:37:12.89
Ashmole 783
Yes, I will bring us home. Let's go around town. Have feedback about today's episode. you can contact us by writing to badassliteraturesociety at gmail.com. You can also send us a DM or leave a comment on any of our social media handles that Michael just conveniently mentioned two seconds ago.

01:37:35.22
Michael Wood
As always, thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next month. My name is Michael.

01:37:39.67
Ashmole 783
I'm Barbara.

01:37:41.40
Ashmole 781
I'm Lauren.

01:37:42.68
Ashmole 783
but Don't let that butter hit you in the face.

01:37:42.81
Michael Wood
Bye.

01:37:46.36
Ashmole 783
sir

01:37:49.96
Ashmole 783
I'm adding this cannon now. but

01:37:52.28
Ashmole 781
that was that was a great visual