Carry On Friends: The Caribbean American Experience
Carry On Friends has an unmistakable Caribbean-American essence. Hosted by the dynamic and engaging Kerry-Ann Reid-Brown, the podcast takes listeners on a global journey, deeply rooted in Caribbean culture. It serves as a melting pot of inspiring stories, light-hearted anecdotes, and stimulating perspectives that provoke thought and initiate conversations.
The podcast invites guests who enrich the narrative with their unique experiences and insights into Caribbean culture and identity. With an array of topics covered - from lifestyle and wellness to travel, entertainment, career, and entrepreneurship - it encapsulates the diverse facets of the Caribbean American experience. Catering to an international audience, Carry On Friends effectively bridges cultural gaps, uniting listeners under a shared love and appreciation for Caribbean culture.
Carry On Friends: The Caribbean American Experience
Language Is Power: Jamaican Patois, Identity & AI
What happens when your language becomes a battleground for identity, education, and cultural sovereignty? When Oneil Madden, a Jamaican linguist who speaks five languages, joined me for this conversation, we uncovered the profound connections between language, heritage, and self-perception that shape the Caribbean experience both at home and abroad.
Oneil shares his journey to becoming a lecturer at the University of Technology, where his passion for language education has fueled groundbreaking research. The revelation that really struck me was his experience of being told by a French supervisor that he was bilingual—something he hadn't fully internalized until his twenties despite growing up speaking both Jamaican Creole and English. This moment mirrors so many of our experiences as Caribbean people, where our native language is often dismissed as merely "bad English" rather than recognized as the sophisticated linguistic system it truly is.
We dive deep into the challenges facing Jamaican Creole today—from standardization efforts by the Jamaican Language Unit to the fascinating paradox that while most Jamaicans speak Patois fluently, many struggle to read it in its codified form. The translation of the New Testament into Jamaican Creole serves as a powerful example of both the progress made and the distance still to travel.
As artificial intelligence increasingly enters the language landscape, we confront complicated questions about who "owns" Jamaican Patois. Is it something to gatekeep, or should we celebrate its growing global influence? .
Language shapes how we see ourselves and how the world sees us. If you've ever felt your accent was a weakness rather than a strength, or if you're curious about the future of Caribbean languages in a digital age, this conversation will resonate deeply.
Resources Mentioned:
- Jamaican Language Unit at UWI Mona
- Jamaican New Testament (via Bible app)
- UN Decade of Indigenous Languages (2022–2032)
- BBC article on Patois in Toronto
Support How to Support Carry On Friends
- Donate: If you believe in our mission and want to help amplify Caribbean voices, consider making a donation.
- Get Merch: Support Carry On Friends by purchasing merchandise from our store.
Connect with @carryonfriends - Instagram | Facebook | YouTube
A Breadfruit Media Production
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Carry On Friends, the Caribbean American experience, and I am very excited I know you hear me say this all the time but I'm very excited to have O'Neal on the podcast. Hello O'Neal, how are you doing? Or should I say bonjour, or should I say bonsoir? We're not Haitian, but you know all of the things. How are you? I say we're not Haitian, but you know all of the things.
Speaker 2:How are you? Bonjour, buenas tardes. I'm very well. Thank you and hello everyone who is hearing my voice and you know everybody who will listen from across the world. You know my fans and friends, colleagues from Jamaica, the Caribbean, from France, the French West Indies as well, and from Latin America.
Speaker 1:Yes, Greetings, wonderful, all right. So we give the people an introduction to all the languages you can speak. So why don't you tell the community of friends a little bit more about you Caribbean country you represent, and the work that you do?
Speaker 2:All right. So I am Jamaican I must emphasize that Very proud of my roots and you know my heritage. I am a lecturer, linguist and researcher currently at the Language Teaching and Research Center that is attached to the Faculty of Education and Liberal Studies at the University of Technology, jamaica. I teach academic literacy and French and I have worked at other institutions, both locally and internationally, where I teach Spanish-related courses, linguistics, culture. I have a research background in technology, in language teaching and learning. I look at artificial intelligence. I look at gamification as well. I look at Jamaican language, jamaican Creole. I'm not a Creole linguist per se, but I take interest in Creole as a less commonly taught language.
Speaker 2:Outside of academia, I am a seasoned columnist with the Jamaica Observer. I have a space in the paper on a Friday where I talk about national issues, current affairs, social issues, and I touch on things happening internationally as well. I also work as a freelance journalist with the Jamaican Observer. Outside of being a columnist, I am an author as well and I love traveling. So I always say, even though I'm a linguist, on the applied science or applied linguist, but I see myself more as an intercultural specialist because I really, like you know, going around, visiting different cultures, countries, meeting different people, learning about their backgrounds and what makes them unique. So, yeah, those are some of the things that define what I do.
Speaker 1:The list is long and I'm not surprised because you're a Jamaican.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I am excited and so, for the audience, everything that you said is kind of grounding us in the conversation we want to have today. Well, I've been wanting to have and it's about language, and so, before we get into that conversation, talk to me about why you chose to focus in this area linguistics. You know all of that. Talk to me about it in this area.
Speaker 2:Linguistics, you know all of that. Talk to me about it. All right, I knew from. I was exposed to Spanish first in first form in high school, and in second form I was exposed to French because at that time where I did my secondary education, depending on your average in first form, you were streamed in second form and the stream groups got the opportunity to do French. And so I just felt like and this is something that we looked at in research and I've tested it, I've been lecturing for 10 years that when you have a teacher who is passionate and enthusiastic about what they do, they kind of have that influence on you. So I feel like those teachers who I had in my foundation years contributed to me pursuing languages, and it's another way of seeing the world, and so I enjoy what I do. And the funny thing is, when I got to upper school, in fifth form, my clearest pathway was through the language. So my top grades were in English, french and Spanish. So I knew that that was the road I was going to take. What field Would it be? You know, in education? Would it be in international relations?
Speaker 2:I eventually decided to go to Teachers College and I met some wonderful lecturers there as well. And in that space, in my third year, we had the opportunity to go to France. So well, I majored in French, I minored in Spanish. So, based on your major, you would either go to France or Panama at the time. So, interestingly, my Spanish was much better than my French and I thought that I wanted to bring my French to my Spanish level. But I ended up, you know just, you know, french just escalated like that To the point where I went back to France after my undergrad. I spent seven years. So I'm fully fluent, native level, in French and I am wrapping up my doctoral dissertation and I'm writing it in French yes, are you them say bright.
Speaker 1:But um side note, I want to ask you which part of Jamaica you come from.
Speaker 2:I am from the cool, cool hills of Tower Hill in Mavis Bank. That's where the coffee factory is. Yes, so that's in East Rural St Andrew I'm from. I'm a country boy.
Speaker 1:I'm a proud country boy, but you know, listen, we country people unite, because whenever I tell anybody I come from Jamaica, I say where you come from oh country, I say it's a city.
Speaker 1:Calm your nerves, but I'm proud of the Tigers still, but lovely, all right. So I wanted to have this conversation. Two inciting events. So I'm in a WhatsApp group and the group. Someone in the group shared the link that there is a government, the New York City housing website had the ability to translate what was on the website to Patois, and so there was this conversation, how it feel unprofessional and a bunch of stuff right, and to me personally, what I find is challenging is the conversation around colonialism, what is proper and all of that. I don't have a problem with the official city website, with the Patois, in terms of unprofessional, in terms of unprofessional, kerianne personally feels some type of way.
Speaker 1:So the AI I use the language because, as I've, one of the superpowers that I have and people are always amazed is when I speak so nicely and then we just jump in at the patu and they're like, oh my God, what is that? Mr Norman is a super poetist and so what I feel very attached to is particularly, language has become my identity. So when I left good, good, mount Alvernia and come America to live right and then went back to Jamaica, my cousin and I said my God, you talk, what's that way you live here Right, because in the diaspora, language becomes a central part of identity. So you hold on to it. Becomes a central part of identity, so you hold on to it, like when I met my I shouldn't say when I met my uncles. When I moved here my uncles had been in America donkey years, just donkey years, and then, as Louise Bennett said, no little twang never, in there, right.
Speaker 1:And so now I'm at the age where they were when I first came and I'm like my God I have some twang, but you know if I'm at the age where they were when I first came and I'm like my God, I have some twang, but you know if I'm in community. So part of my concern is what does it mean when AI and all these other people have access to language, whereas before and I want to read something from Miss Lou's Aunt Rochi said when we can't talk and we can't go fast and we can't go slow and we don't want nobody to understand what we're saying, all of these things, right, and so I wanted to. So those are the two inciting things. And then, third, my challenge with this push to translate everything into Patois is that and this is where we're going to probably be a little boundary pushing that and this is where we're going to probably be a little boundary pushing.
Speaker 1:We are fluent in Patois, but we may be illiterate in reading and writing it, because we know that there's an appreciation of it. There's no codification of the proper way to spell a word, right. There's variations of how some people want to say gyal versus gyal, or gwe or whatever it is right, and later down in the after show I'll read from Miss Ant Rochise, miss Lou, which I have right here. It is difficult to read patwa and read it in a way that's fluent, and I think that's also part of the adjustment in the identity. Like you are fluent in it but you may be illiterate because you can't read it as well as you speak it or write it. So I know, as a journalist you're going to say my girl, you just gave a very long backstory. Cut Me need for answer but I just wanted to set it up. Caught my need for answer but I just wanted to set it up, you know. So what are your thoughts about languages and identity and the properness of Patois being translated and all?
Speaker 2:of that. I think you've said quite some interesting things, and the question that you just asked is very personal and very relevant in the Jamaican context and also in the diaspora. Language is identity and, as somebody who is multilingual, I can tell you that Whenever I speak French, I feel very French. I wasn't born French, I was born in a Francophone country, but I feel very French. I wasn't born French, I was born in a Francophone country, but I feel very French. And when I speak in English or Jamaican, I feel very Jamaican.
Speaker 2:And language is a way of life, it's a way of thinking, and which is why, when we get into translations, for example and given that it's within my scope, I know very well some ideas are very difficult to translate because they are from a cultural perspective and some are not translatable at all. And so your final language is identity, and which is why sometimes and identity and heritage and solidarity, which is why I think for you, when you go into a foreign country and you meet up with people from where you're from, that kind of solidarity comes in. It's like you can't have a full conversation just in standard English. Some amount of Potwa must drive in the conversation.
Speaker 1:Listen my friend in Jamaica. He says anytime a Jamaican come on the show you cannot contain the patwa. It just bursts right, even on the road. You're just like. We went to Hershey Park and there's the young lady was navigating us to the shuttle bus, to the parking lot and me just hear she say a word and me know she's a Jamaican and me, just stop, talk to her.
Speaker 2:Yes, so it identifies who you are, so to some extent, we do have an accent as Jamaican, so you're able to identify that as well, and so it is important for us. You know, we're living in a time, especially the decade 2022 to 2032 the united nations has declared that decade as the decade of indigenous languages, so they're calling for us to promote indigenous languages, you languages that are endangered, and so it's a critical point that we're at regarding language transition and Jamaican patois. And I remember when one time I was in France, I was with another Jamaican and we were there because sometimes you want to say some things you know and nobody understands what you're saying, and so I remember we're code switching a lot and this young lady she just kept looking at us Afterwards. We asked her if she understood. She said a few things. It happened that she was from Ida Martinique Guadeloupe, so she was able either martinica guadalupe, so she was said she was able to follow certain things, and then we were like we have to be very careful, you know, because you just don't know who may be understanding what you're saying, and so it gives you that.
Speaker 2:You know, just in that superpower, when you're in certain spaces, you want to communicate certain things, you want to send certain messages. It's just like you can't give certain jokes in standard english because they will not have the effect that you want them to have. You can't express certain things in standard english. When you draw for a jamaican reference, the message goes home and which is why, as you know, as as a linguist, I am big on. You know, I know it's a touchy debate, but I am one of those people who believe that children should be educated in their modern language. So if we're going to go bilingual roads, let's go that road. Teach them in english, teach them in jamaican.
Speaker 2:Cruel because, um, intelligence is not a matter of whether you speak standard english or not. Intelligence is a matter of comprehension and children need to comprehend, they need to understand what is being transmitted onto them and, because of language perception over the many decades and years, it's really stifled a lot of Jamaicans. I remember when I was doing a master's thesis in France, I was looking at teaching English as a second language in Jamaica and it did not dawn on me until that point I was in my early 20s that I was actually bilingual as an adult. It was my supervisor, who was French, who said to us, which was with my Jamaican friend. Well, you guys are bilingual and that shifted everything, everything, everything for me.
Speaker 1:Listen. The minute I came to America and the reception to the way that I spoke, compared to how I was groomed to speak in high school in Jamaica, I recognized that, oh, you know, I have this other language and even the way that I can express that, you know, and that's part of why a lot of times my friends, they will say, carrie, where you get these words from? I go back and use words that they won't, you know, like most commonly won't use. No, they are words that my grandmother and older people would use because I recognize that they are in danger of being lost. So I use it so sometimes. And then I love the Proverbs, so, like I was telling my friend we were talking and I said, little pig have big ears, and she's like what I'm going to say, the pig need to listen, you know. So it's like even in that way, you know, just using language and I am, this entire show, you know, is an evolution of how I even embrace that language. Because in the beginning I was like welcome, you know, and I was all you know tone and twanging. And now I'm like hey, everybody, wagwan, and you know.
Speaker 1:And the other story that incited me to start the podcast. I was interviewing a young man for a position and one of the questions some standard question your weakness and your strength and he said his weakness was his accent. And I went through the interview and at the end, as I was walking him through the door, I was like your accent is not a weakness at all. And now I mean, look how much money them up here, hollywood actors, we try to get with accent and we have it, you know. So I love, I love that. I want to double clicking to something what you said 2022 to 2032, the decade of indigenous language. Why make I mean everyone? This is a language show, so we're going to be switching because we are. I'm bilingual and he's trilingual, or at least.
Speaker 1:I know five language.
Speaker 2:Right. So why did the UN designate the decade of languages that we have will just cut into, they will just disappear. And so, in order to strengthen that and to preserve language, the UN says let us, you know, pilot some projects, let us do everything that we can to promote, let's look at language policies in schools, in communities, how we can preserve these languages. And also to again to the point where there are still many countries where people are illiterate because they are not being taught in the language that they know, and that's troubling for me. Now, I speak different languages and I know the English language very well, but, again, a lot of people identify or, you know, they look at the correlation between intelligence and speaking the English language. And I'm like, for me that's not a marker of being bright. So, which is why I you know that, the young man that you interviewed it is one of the things that people struggle with, that they've always been spoken to about their accent, so they feel like it's a barrier, that it's a weakness when listen, that's how you speak and I remember, you know, learning different languages and because I'm native level in French, sometimes I'm asked a question have you ever, you know, attempted to speak like the French. I'm like listen, I am not French, so I'm not going to put on an accent to sound French. If that's your, you know, if that's your objective, fine, I will not say don't, but you're going to put on an accent to sound friend. If that's your, you know that's your objective, fine, I will not say don't, but you're going to hear that I am not a native speaker. So it's interesting because I, as I said, travel a lot and I remember one time I was coming back to jamaica on a flight beside this guy I think he was he's, he's from before, neither from france or belgium, and came to mobay.
Speaker 2:We ended up coming into kingston together. So we went to the bus station to get the bus to come into kingston and he asked me something in english, but I'm very much french, so the french just came out. He, I responded to him in French and he's like what? So we started having a conversation about French, and then he's like he's trying to understand where I was from, because he thought, of course, I was Francophone, but I have a slight accent, so I'm not French. And then I was like I'm Jamaican and he's like that's not possible. He was like I'm Jamaican and he's like that's not possible. He was like I'm very much Jamaican, I started out in Hawaii, in France, and blah, blah, blah. But I'm not trying to hide my identity, so I'm not going to imitate an accent, because it is who I am.
Speaker 2:So people need to embrace. People need to embrace their accent, their languages, and it's interesting that you know. Our things become extinct, our languages become extinct because we give precedent to the dominant languages that are used across the world Before you know it. I don't classify Jamaican Creole as an endangered language because a lot of us speak it. I don't see it going anywhere.
Speaker 1:You thought that was my next question.
Speaker 2:It's not going anywhere. It's not going anywhere, but you know, because I look at minority languages across the board, even though I don't specialize in a specialize in minority languages, but it's one of the realities that you know, some of these languages are becoming next state and I have colleagues across the world. You know, I was at a conference recently working with colleagues who teach Maltese language, who teach the one in Ireland. What's that called?
Speaker 1:Is it?
Speaker 2:Gaelic Right, irish and Gaelic right. So I have colleagues who are working with those minority languages to promote those languages so that you know they can have bilingual education as well, because that's how we're going to, you know, have the languages continue and not die off, because so much culture and so much history and literature is attached to a language. So it's not just grammar and vocabulary but again, identity, culture, so much that you can learn about generations when you pass on native languages.
Speaker 1:I want to come back to this idea of literacy and I mean, you're going to talk about the Jamaican context, but I have kids who are born in America and I remember a cousin. She's technically my mother's cousin, but you know we are Jamaicans.
Speaker 1:No second, third, a cousin. She's technically my mother's cousin, but you know we are Jamaicans. No, second, third, a cousin, right. And I said to I was talking to my kids and she said I understand what you're saying. I said I don't know what other language you're talking to us, right To the point that when they're ready they start to make fun Like this is mommy, when she wanted to do something Me, say for potato. You know like they understand it. Now you know that they're not native speakers because you hear that American twang with it, but they understand it.
Speaker 1:And I think you know, throughout the time of doing the show, a lot of second generation Jamaican Americans. They often find people tell them that they're not Jamaican because you can hear, even though they can speak and they know the patua, you still hear that American twang in there and they kind of feel insecure about it. So when it comes to and I guess this plays into literacy, because there's this aspect of I don't know what's the right word like this self-awareness and insecurity about how you're coming off, whether you writing it, that's one and maybe what the movement is. But comprehension, I don't necessarily think at least, is the bigger issue, because most people comprehend it as like how do you read and begin to write and communicate maybe more effectively in your native language, if that makes sense?
Speaker 2:right, um, and you're doing a good thing. It I was teased. I'm not working in france because I worked in foreign languages unit, and so I've had students who they are coming from a bilingual or a multilingual background in terms of their parents and their generations, but their parents never communicated to them in the language of the parents. So imagine you live in france, you're learning english, but your parents are from spain and italy and you're you have to learn italian and spanish in school because your parents never spoke those languages at home. I'm like I think your parents who do that they're robbing their children of a very important asset that they need to have.
Speaker 1:Yes, and both can be true. What I learned, particularly from Haitian guests, and I remember this woman who's Jamaican like her. She wasn't on the show, but I had a conversation with her. She wasn't allowed to talk Patois, and I think a lot of that had to do with their immigration experience. When they came here, they did not want their children to have to deal with any of the discrimination or bullying that happened. So some of that is because of fear, and you know the culture at the time when they migrated. You know it was cool toicans, but before that the prior generation had, they were trying to blend in, and that was part of the reason why that a lot of people just did not teach their kids the language or forbade them. They could communicate in the house, but forbade them from speaking it. So I wanted to share that. Those are some of the stories that I've heard, but not today yeah, not today, not today not today yes, it's a very important asset to have.
Speaker 2:And just to tie that with research, since I'm also a researcher, researcher research has shown that you know, people who are bilingual, multilingualilingual they tend to have fewer effects of dementia when they get old. So because there's a linguistic gymnastic that is taking place, so your brain is active and that continues until you get old. So there are cognitive and health benefits and intellectual benefits too, when you are multilingual. Now back to the matter. You know self-awareness, perception, literacy. I remember in undergrad and funny enough, this happened earlier on today I went to see one of my students by the food court and this other student came by buying something. So my student and I were talking and then he was like where are you from? You speak with an accent, oh, you're Jamaican. And I get this question quite often for some strange reason. I remember in undergrad I was hosting a radio program and I was communicating Jamaican from time to time and then my friends would be WhatsApping me and be like man, stick to English. And I'm like guys, I'm Jamaican as well, allow me to express myself using the Jamaican language. And so some people feel like I don't understand it and master it. But I can tell you that I know more Creole than you because I studied these things, you know. So it's a matter of accepting that language comes with accents and variations. We're not all going to speak the same way and we have to really move away from the notion of, you know, being this bad patois or this bad English, so we have to appreciate diversity and variations.
Speaker 2:The point about I think you probably refer to, you know non-standardization of the Jamaican language. Now the Jamaican language has gone through decades of codification and currently the most popular model that is used is called the Cassidy model and that the Jamaican language unit at the University of Western Des Moines campus in Kingston. They have done a lot of work on, you know, having a standard for the Jamaican language. Is it well known? No, and that's one of the conversations I keep having with my colleagues that listen.
Speaker 2:We need to get it in the teachers' colleges Because if the teachers are the ones who are going to interact with the students the most, we need to have our teachers at least do an elective course in Jamaican language so that they can pass it on when they go into the system. So I remember having this conversation very recently, because if we're moving, I don't know at what point, but I know that at least one political party is suggesting that they would officialize Jamaican Creole were they to form the next government. But officialization comes with a lot of work. Jamaican Creole, were they to form the next government. But officialization comes with a lot of work. It comes with a lot of funding because all the documentation will have to be transcribed signs, road sign, all of these things.
Speaker 2:But there is a model that is used and it is the model that has been used to translate the New Testament into Jamaican Creole. So for me it's not a fair conversation. I know that more awareness needs to take place, but I often hear it and you know people are like oh, you're culpables for officialization when you know there's no standard for Creole. I was like there is a standard again that is not widely known but it needs to be known. And because Patois has been an oral language for the most part, where we spell it based on our phonemic awareness, our own phonetics, and just see those variations and people like, which is why it's hard to read, especially in the codified version, it's hard to read.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you that Jamaican New Testament. I was reading it and I said I would never spell this word this way, but you know it was. The good thing about it which I love about the Bible app personally is that you can play and follow along with it, and so that makes the comprehension or the reading of it much better and get familiar with the words and get familiar with the words. But when we saw this, everybody in the family because we were sitting down and you know I was telling my niece and my brother-in-law that yo, yes, there's a New Testament I told my coworker about it and then we hit play and it says I can't remember 1 John.
Speaker 1:I forget the old name, john right, and the dramatization in the Bible app, and just like reading along, everybody was like. You know, this is a version of us in that space. We're recognizing our limitations in reading it because the way it was presented in the app is not how, like you said, we would phonetically, you know, write this word Like I can't even tell you how much word. We say what.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah I would if I would never spell it this way if I was spelling it. So I think that comes back to what I think a lot of people are struggling with. It's like how do I begin to read and understand this? And of course, everything is not well-funded to the point where, oh, if I want to understand it, I can just follow along and listen to the Bible app. I feel like the next question becomes where do we Jamaicans not just Jamaicans of Jamaica, but Jamaicans abroad where do we go from here? Because you know, like you said, it's been an oral language. My grandmother passed away so we would never be able to teach her this new version, you know. So where do we go from here? And I know that the language Jamaican language.
Speaker 1:We don't have time to worry about that for a while. But how do we get to a place where I want my kids to now be fully bilingual so they can read and write and understand what's going on? Where do we go from here? And then I want to switch to the AI thing, Right?
Speaker 2:So the pilot programs have been done by the Jamaican Language Unit and other faculties at the UA, loan for sure, in primary schools, and the results have shown that, you know, students were able to distinguish between Jamaican and English language. So, again, funding is needed, capacity building is needed, we're going to need more teachers being familiarized with the system that UWE has been proposing. But it also takes, you know, a shift in focus, because one of the things that we struggle with as a people is like why we are pushed part of, if we're not even mouthful, english. You always get that, you always get that and part of it is not going anywhere. Because English is the international language of communication and business and all the world.
Speaker 2:And only to realize that you know English is a very difficult language. It's a language that you know. It has some weird rules, some weird patterns and, just like any other language, it has gone through its processes to become what it is today. But it's sometimes difficult to argue with people who are non-linguists or non-language enthusiasts, because they're not seeing it from our perspective that the linguists I mean my colleagues they've done the work, they have done the work, but there's not much appreciation for the work because it's always been an oral language and they've tried to put a system in place to codify. You don't think it sounds like how you would spell it, so you can't accept it like there's so many things in english language that we just work with. Why is? Why do we say preach, preached, but teach, taught or like one sheep, two sheep, yeah.
Speaker 1:Or read and read the same spelling.
Speaker 1:You know, it's just. You know a lot of things and I I remember a few jobs ago I worked with some colleagues where English wasn't their native language and they said it was just the most difficult language to learn because, as you said, pronunciation is different. Like I live in America and I can tell where someone comes from based on the way they speak and how they pronounce certain words. You know, go on social media. Everybody says, not plantain, is plantain, right. And I said, okay, let's use the same structure. Do you say mountain? No, you say mountain, and you don't say curtain, you say curtain. So you know why do we use plantain. You know if you're using that or fountain, right.
Speaker 1:So I think I love and appreciate language even before I moved here.
Speaker 1:Like we all had to learn.
Speaker 1:You know, in my generation, and I think even my mother's generation when she went to high school, miss Lou's poems right and just, and I think maybe that's what I got growing up, that I grew up in a time when Miss Lou was still active and visible and very, you know, a very staunch supporter or representative of the language and the beautiful way that she would speak and perform in our language.
Speaker 1:And I had and we all looked up to her right as an example, and I think maybe that is not something that, even though everybody upon social media we maybe not have someone who feels the same way about the language that she did and leave a mark on a generation of people. And then, and maybe also it's my own personal experience with how people react to me and the way that I speak, to say that If you think that I'm less educated, that's your problem. You know, not mine. You know and you know just all these perceptions and, living in New York City and hearing the different accents, do you think someone who speaks with an Italian accent is less educated?
Speaker 1:Like you hear Italian, I could tell an Irish person accent, especially if they come from Boston you know, if someone is from deep South, versus like it doesn't commute, it doesn't, and I don't know where that comes from. I think that's a bigger issue with the English language generally. But that's all. We're going off into another end, but I'm loving this conversation and there's a lot, so I'm going to jump to the AI part where I feel like like, should I be worried? To AI.
Speaker 2:Before I get there. I also want to point out that you know outside of the education sector, like people in media, they have a huge responsibility as well in order to promote programs. Have programs in Jamaican, because the more we hear it, I think, the more we will have an appreciation for it. So read the news in Jamaican. And again I'm going back to native language and comprehension, because when you listen to some people, how would they interpret what was said on the news? You wonder if you and them listen to the same news.
Speaker 2:But if they were in if it was said, like you said, the patwa version of the New Testament. Now, as a religious person too, I read different versions of the Bible and you have appreciation for different versions, whether it's a test, the NIV.
Speaker 1:I like NLT, but some things you can't read it in NLT. You can only read the 23rd Psalm in KJV version because it's on a certain way. I think I like that example because it's a perfect way. Some verses in the Bible KJV don't go with NIV or NLT because you know it just sown out a different way, yeah yeah, and it doesn't give you the message.
Speaker 2:You know some things and words very, very powerful, and it's just why I tell my students all the time, and even when in my columns, when I'm very deliberate, I'm very intentional with my word choice, because it sends the message that I want it to send. Now, when you read the New Testament in Jamaican, you get the imagery deeper than with the English province, so the story's not lost on you. And again, when you get that inner language that you understand very well, it stays with you much longer than in a foreign language.
Speaker 1:Listen, I'm reading the Bible in chronological order.
Speaker 1:I cannot wait to get to the New Testament because I am reading it all. Jamaica, batua, which I don't know. I guess the whole Testament part is going to take a while, but I really appreciate it. I'm really enjoying this language. You know this conversation on language because, I mean, I'm not a linguist, but when I tell you I love my language and culture, I love it. So now let's get to the AI part, where we do a lot with the worry about AI.
Speaker 1:I taught Jamaican but even before that I sent you the article with the this woman. She's in the UK. They were hiring people to talk Jamaican and then you have people who are discussed that the language is not going away. But we kind of feel away when people who don't really come from the language or speak the language. I did not say this, the BBC article did say this. May I put that as a preference. I'm not. Nobody come for me. The Jamaican language has become a central part of the linguistic fabric of Toronto. If I were in Toronto I would say Toronto, because that's how they say it.
Speaker 1:If I were in Toronto, I would say Toronto, because that's how they say it. It's now widely spoken by people who have no ethnic or heritage connection to Jamaica, most recently reignited by Toronto, toronto, the Toronto Rapa native Drake. So we have two things where people are, there's this aspect of AI coming, and what does this mean? Everybody go talk Patois and this idea that it's ours and we want to hold on to it and we want to gatekeep it and guard it. So there's a lot that's happening in there. On one hand, we want to gatekeep it nobody take it. But on the other hand, there's this AI thing that potentially could be helpful. But, as I've seen, in this age of technology enhancement, fly the gate is not what's the word. There's a danger in a fly the gate and let everybody come in with it. So what are your thoughts?
Speaker 1:on that we're just going to leave it right.
Speaker 2:I'm very interesting question, um. So, with the propagation of ai, which is not new, I remember when chat gpt came up about in november 2022, you know, a lot of concerns were raised and I remember I was one of the columnists locally who said, listen, I'm in language education. We've always been using artificial intelligence, we've always been using Google Translate and other things, so it's really not new. So I wasn't concerned about, you know, the threats, what the future of education would look like, and there have been so many evolutions. When cell phones came about mark, I think it did before I came, you know, at sense, but there are people were skeptical about it as well, and it's become a useful tool, and so I think we have to look at the positive side because, one again, language is culture and a lot of people, for the longest while, who are non-jamaicans, have wanted to understand what the dancehall songs and the reggae songs are saying, to understand what the dancehall songs and the reggae songs are saying. So now they can do this independently. I remember one of my friends from Mayotte, in one of those African countries. He was asking me what is Spice's song is saying. You know, spice can be very you know, know raunchy in some of her lyrics and I'm like bro, what are you? What kind of song you're listening to? Anyway, I told him what the song meant. So they're listening to these songs, they they look up to a lot of our art in gizland. So I think it now gives them a space independently to be able to research and get an understanding of what they're intaking.
Speaker 2:And I think when more people have an appreciation for the language, it's even greater potency for us to officialize the language. So you know, there are many benefits to it. One of the things that I found striking some years ago when another petition was done to officialize Jamaican, the Jamaican language. When you looked at those who signed the petition, most of them were non-Jamaican and non-Jamaican linguists. A lot of people who are, in my discipline, some reputable linguists, calling for the officialization of the Jamaican language because they understand the benefits and the agency that come with knowing a language, and so you realize that there's a lot more. But many non-Jamaicans appreciate the language more than those native speakers do, which is, you know, it is contradictory. So I feel like it's good that we have these platforms.
Speaker 2:Google Translate does have Jamaican language as well. Chachi PT now has Jamaican language. So they are a risk of Titan, of course, and I think, who knows, very soon they may be used in the custody model to do the translations, and so it provides avenues because now that it becomes, the standardized part is there. It opens jobs, opportunities for people. So you will have official Patwa translators and interpreters who can do things and it helps. I remember I was traveling recently and this has happened a lot during my job was where I had to interpret for people. I was traveling to Mexico recently and there was this Asian maybe he was Chinese was going to Denmark and he understood barely anything in English, much less to understand anything in Spanish. So I stood there at immigration, at customs, you know, just to help him out. So imagine being in a context where the Jamaican language is the language that is needed to be used and you know whomever is there is able to provide that sort of agency to help somebody else.
Speaker 1:So I think it's very useful and through that, those media, those media to us as native speakers, we learn more about the language because we don't know everything so I do appreciate the idea of having a translator, because my daughter told a story like when she was younger and she was working at one of like one of those chain restaurants you sit down and eat. You know, this Jamaican lady and her family was ordering and her co-workers didn't understand what they wanted and so they called my daughter, who she's not a native speaker, she born here but because she bilingual, because she live in the house, she was able to translate and take the lady other, because the lady I talk she's like mommy, the lady so like she come from kinston, which she would know because, as her parents, I tell her that I have an idea of which part of jamaica people come from based on how they speak, and she translated that.
Speaker 1:But also on a more, a more somber note, like when my grandmother, who lived in Jamaica until like maybe 2003 fully, and then she had a stroke and at one point she had to go into the hospital.
Speaker 1:She was thriving and recovering when and she wasn't in a place where a lot of Jamaicans and West Indians live right, she was in the Midwest and so there are not too many people who are there but she was thriving when the person who was on her rotation to take care of her was Jamaican and so she would be able to understand. And so I found that when she was communicating with them, they would not understand. So what happened was she stopped talking, and because she stopped talking, they took that as a cue that she wasn't being responsive. And it wasn't the case, because when I was there, when we had to finally make the decision to put her on hospice care, this doctor was telling me she's not responsive. I'm like I went in there and I was talking to her and she respond, but because you all aren't understanding what she's saying even though she's, she's talking English.
Speaker 1:You know cause? My grandmother, you know she talked English but there's a slight accent there. They weren't taking the time to one and my grandmother comes from a generation where they're kind of soft spokenspoken and they're a different way. And, you know, it would have been very helpful for someone who would be able to understand. And I play this in my head sometime I was like maybe if she had the stroke in New York she'd have recovered fine, because without put her in the hospital here, and even when it wasn't like my mom and my uncles couldn't visit her, but the nurses, the healthcare professions, are around her all the time, right? So you need someone who's able to kind of understand, even you know, for instance, my grandmother typical grandma language Boy I was handing out the flyer and the guy didn't take it. I'ma feel cute, you know you, and I know what she means by she feel cute.
Speaker 1:Somebody else would be like what are you talking about, right? Or I had this experience and another guest had this experience where I was in high school and, um, somebody was offended by something that I did I'm a say, but me tell her and the girl did by something that I did. And they said, but Metella Osh, and the girl did.
Speaker 1:She was like she took it to be. You know, be quiet, and that's not what I meant. Osh is our way of saying sorry. And another guest came on the show and said he, when he came to go to college in Georgia and he told somebody Osh, the girl was about to ready to light him up and then he realized that, oh, something is wrong. And even more recently at work, I was sitting on a call and I was talking to a colleague and I was like me feel like a donut. And he looked at me like I don't know. And then I saw his face and I corrected myself and I said I feel like having a donut. He was like oh, I wasn't sure if you physically felt like a donut. So I think there is a really strong argument for the interpreters because, like you said, there's some things that even with AI, there's contexts that it may not be able to pick up. Like I feel like a donut, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the disadvantages we've looked at in language learning and the you know absence of is, you know, the cultural nuance that these large language models are not able to pick up on, and so you're going to need people to do that for you. And again, language provides agency and access. Now imagine going into a context you are not well, but you speak Jamaican. That's the only language you're able to express whatever you're going through, but your medical practitioner doesn't understand. It has implications. You go into a court system and that's one of the things we're lobbying for in Jamaica as well where you're speaking the king's English and you want the client to understand exactly what's happening. So we need to provide places where the language can be used so people leave with the correct understanding and interpretation. You use these melody and the, the jar, the legal jargon that can become so cumbersome. It's not helping the average Creole-a-phone speaker.
Speaker 1:Creole-a-phone speaker. I'm a Creole-a-phone speaker. No, I know we could go on and on. So when it comes to the diaspora, we talk about how the language begins to evolve because you have Jamaican and then you have New York language speak and all of this wrap up and mix up. What does that mean in terms of linguistic terms? Is it just the way in Spanish you have? You know, spanish from Spain versus Latin? Is that where we are when it comes to Jamaican language?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, it happens in every language. It's what we call sociolinguistics. So you look at the social context attached to the language, which is why people from St Elizabeth have a particular type of ator versus those from Moby, which you're from the West, you know.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And I think Moby uses they when day. A person from kingston would not use that. So you can identify certain regions based on, you know, these little inserts that they use and certain things that they use to designate certain objects as well. It's like calling Dandesh on the sight and sight.
Speaker 2:Sightings or something like that. So you could be in the same country with different parishes and somebody says sightings and you'll be like huh, what is that? Anybody used to speak sightings in their primary school and you're like what is that? So you used to play sightings in the primary school. And you're like what is that? So you start to explain it oh, Dandishandi, so yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we call it sight on sight, you know I first met your sight on sight, yeah sight on sight.
Speaker 1:We call it At least my generation call my husband. Right now, Dandishandi is like no, this Dandishandi isn. Right now, dandy Shandy is like no, this Dandy Shandy. Isn't that a drink? You know, so you have. You have some of that. And even you know, in this age we're in where you have pronouns Jamaicans been using them you know long time. You know, so you know it's. It's so interesting how we use them to pluralize. You know just different things.
Speaker 2:And him. We talk about a female too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, or you know just the way. That again, context and region, you know, you know somebody will come from St Thomas, St Elizabeth, Kingston, to Elizabeth Kinston, Like, I think, Kinstonians, depending on where you are.
Speaker 1:In Kinston you speak almost in a sing-songy type way if you come from a certain part of Kinston versus you know other people, but it's this is what I love about our language, and that's so fascinating, because if you're not from Jamaica, you wouldn't even realize that these are like nuances that happen on the island itself. And so I'm going to wrap it up, because I don't want to keep you, although I feel like I need you for something else, so let me look. So what's the one takeaway you want people have when it comes to? You know the Jamaican language, language, justice, you know, in terms of. You know our language is for everyone, and you know whether you're poor or you're rich.
Speaker 1:You know we need to make sure that, you know, the citizens of our country are able to represent themselves and speak in a way that is familiar to them and that be acceptable, right? It's not that they can't do it, it's just not acceptable in some places, right? And yeah, what's your words? Because this is evolving, so there's no final word. So what's your thoughts as of today? Because, you know, next week a whole different story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right Languages Agency. And in a country like Jamaica, where the national language is Jamaican Creole, the majority of the population speaks, why is it not an official language one? And we need to provide, you know, avenue spaces where people are able to express themselves in their native language without feeling like they're being discriminated against or that they're unintelligent because they do not speak the dominant language, the language of instruction, the posh language, which is English. We should accommodate people. We should accommodate people and it's one of the conversations that I've raised, based on my recent research articles how, as a person who teaches English language, academic literacy, how do we facilitate that in our courses as well? And how do my colleagues that teach English language across the education system, how do they feel about incorporating Jamaican Creole in the education system? That's a conversation we need to have. System. That's a conversation we need to have. We need to not see Jamaican language as bad English, because it affects how people feel about themselves. I have had students who have told me sir, I'm very, very conscious when I have to speak standard English, because they don't want to make any mistake and they don't want to come off with an accent and that kind of stuff. But we need, at the same time, cruel is looked upon, as you know, informal and uneducated. So we need to strike a balance, because if you're going to be fearful of speaking English because you don't want to make a mistake and it's not your native language, so why are we not embracing our native language On a more international scale?
Speaker 2:I feel, with the continuous evolution of artificial intelligence and technology in general, it will provide scope for people to access an agency. The justice system needs to be more accommodative. I remember at UTEC we had a lecture recently and it was a lawyer who has a PhD in linguistics. So her background is very interesting. So she looks at legal justice from a language perspective, a linguistic perspective in the Caribbean, and so I raised some of the points you know you're going to the court system.
Speaker 2:Are we accommodating the average Creole speaker in an English court system? Are we accommodating our native Jamaican children in a language that they understand? And again, we just are promoting bilingual education because we see in the national and regional exams each year that our students do not perform well in English language and in mathematics too, and I feel like if they're taught in a language that they understand, again, comprehend on them, it could yield greater results. So I want to commend my colleagues, my cruel linguists in Jamaica and the Caribbean and elsewhere, putting in the work. I do my advocacy through forums like this one and also through my writings and research, so that we can continue to elevate the conversation. But, most importantly, I feel like a lot of work needs to come from governance, governance of the country, because if they push it then we will reach, you know, a greater level in terms of what we want.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that. That, I guess. A question does the Jamaican language unit have a dictionary? Because somebody said something the other day. Somebody sent me a joke and I said what really does bilious mean? I got it from the context, but it's almost like, where did this word derive from? Because if you look up our English language, it tells us origin and all of that stuff. Right, and it would be so cool for us to have something similar. So I'm just curious if there's any of that in the words there is, so it's ongoing.
Speaker 2:I know Joseph Ferguson from the Jamaican Language Unit. He posts these words maybe weekly, at least a word, a Jamaican word on LinkedIn. So I know he and others are working on a dictionary and, interestingly, based on my recollection, the dictionary will have the Jamaican word, then it will have the translationsican word, then it will have the translations in English and maybe French and Spanish.
Speaker 1:That's nice.
Speaker 2:We're getting to places. We're getting to places, and the language is so rich and dynamic it's hard to keep up with. I know, because our sociolinguistics is very colorful, it's like, and because you know you have to content with pop culture every day, so you have to content with dancehall music, reggae music every day, and everything. Every new movement brings about new terminologies that you have to try to keep up with, so it's very interesting and the other.
Speaker 1:So we have another show called reels and rhythms and we were talking, we were reviewing rockers from the 70s and we're, just like rastafarianism, brought a whole nother level of words to what we kind of use, like instead of understand is overstand. You know, even the other day I was talking to my friend I don't know if this is a thing and he said, kerry, you know, I don't appreciate you, I appreciate love you. I was just like you know. So you know it's, it's all these ways that our culture is dynamic, it's rich, it's evolving and you know, I am so grateful to have this conversation. I hope you come back and tell me whatever else is going on and we can chat. But I'll put where people can find you in the show notes and we're not going to be done, we're going at the show notes. I'm going to ask some other question and I might read what Aunt Roachie say. So, as I love to say at the end of every episode, walk good.
