021 : Kevin Briggs & the Power of Perspective

Part 2 of 3: In the second episode of our three part series, (the continuation of episode 20) we speak to Kevin Briggs, the police officer from Kevin Berthia's Golden Gate Bridge story. 

Trigger Warning: This episode speaks on suicide. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome back to the Choose Your Attitude Podcast. Again, my name is Nicholas Strand. It is so good to have you guys listening. Today's gonna be a little bit of a tougher discussion, but I hope to bring light in the situation and make it inspirational and help everybody through the reality of life. Today we're gonna be speaking with Kevin Briggs, the police officer in the Golden Gate Bridge Suicidal series. Kevin Berthia, we had on the last podcast and was the person on the other side of the bridge about ready to jump. The two created an amazing inspirational message from this as Kevin Berthia climbed over, and through 90 minutes of talking, Kevin Briggs, the police officer, was able to coax uh Kevin Berthia over. And it was so inspiring we had to come back today and talk to Kevin Briggs, the police officer. I wanted to hear his side. Um, and I'm excited to uh after this episode, the next episode will be bringing the two together. But I really wanted to focus um on this and and bring this to light because it's very important, and not only does it help with uh the extreme, but it helps with littler uh discussions as well. But as always, because this is a very important topic and we are going to be talking about suicide, uh parental discretion is advised. And at the same time, for those listening, I do want to provide some help. So if you feel that you are in a compromise situation or you know of somebody, um there is a suicidal hotline. That number is uh 1-800-273-8255. Again, that's 1-800-273-8255. Uh, that's the National Suicide Prevention Hotline. Uh, you can actually chat with people online um or get more information. Um, their website is suicidepreventionlifeline.org. Again, that's suicidepreventionlifeline.org. And just because it's important, I'm gonna say the phone number one more time. That's 1-800-273-8255. So if if you or somebody you know um is in that crisis, uh, that is a number to reach help. But moving forward on that, we're gonna discuss uh some of these things and uh hopefully get inspired to inspire you through life. Um not only hearing this story, but um knowing how we can relate it to so many difficult things in life because we're all going through something. As always, this podcast is made possible by viewers like you and your continuous support, and of course, our sponsors. This episode was brought to you by the Choose Your Attitude brand, a premium encouragement brand. Choose your attitude is a community that champions the idea that attitude is a choice within everyone's grasp. A brand isn't a good without a logo, and boy, does choose your attitude pack a punch. Turn it on its side is an hourglass for time, two hearts for community, the one on the left is your past, while the one on the right is your future, lifting up your past. And of course, the butterfly effect. Although we can't control the trials and tribulations we go through in life, we do control how we approach them with the power of choice of our attitude. Choose your attitude is a premium encouragement brand that offers men's and women's apparel and accessories, lots of selections, and for our listeners, 20% off code use podcast20, then you'll get 20% off your first order. So make sure you go shop now at chooseyourattitude.com. If you would like to be a sponsor on the Choose Your Attitude podcast, make sure you go email us at podcast at chooseyourattitude.com. And now it's time to start this episode. Roll the intro.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Let's step back a little, take a look inside our true self, get comfortable in the uncomfortable, and let's embrace our reality. Life is tough, but so are you. Welcome to the Choose Your Attitude Podcast with Nicholas Strand. Join Nick, author of Loving Someone Who's Dying, as he shares his experiences of life loss to life on the road as a traveling roadie. And his guests will get into real topics while encouraging you to let go of the past, lift up the present, and fiercely build your better tomorrow. Let's get through this together. Now, here's your host, Nick Strand.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

All right, welcome. I'm so excited to have Kevin Briggs here. Kevin, how are you today?

SPEAKER_02 4:49

I'm fantastic. Thank you for having me. It's an absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

Thank you. So um we had uh Kevin Berthia on um before, and um, you know, you and him had an amazing uh encounter. Um, you know, it it it's weird to call it amazing, um, but it's it's very inspiring. Um, you know, I I'd I'd love to, you know, in your words, um, you know, hear about hear about you and uh that event and um you know take it from there.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Sure. Uh I was with the California Highway Patrol for 23 years, and part of my duties was to patrol the Golden Gate Bridge, which if folks didn't know is the number one spot in the United States for loss of life to suicide. There is a barrier going up as I speak or as we speak, but um we get a lot of suicides off of that bridge, unfortunately, and we get a lot of folks come there who contemplate suicide, and we get a chance to speak with them. And most of the time, if we get a chance to speak with someone, they will come over this four-foot rail back onto the sidewalk and we can get them some help. So with Kev, just an average day of me patrolling around and talking to folks and meet people from all over the world every day. But I received a call of a man on the sidewalk talking to a loved one on a cell phone, saying that he's gonna jump. So I'm on my motorcycle, I start working my way down the sidewalk, and as I came up near the North Tower, I see him, and there he is, matches the description, still on the sidewalk and on a cell phone. So I stopped about 50, 75 feet away, something like that. And as I'm getting off of my motorcycle, he looks my direction, throws down the phone, and jumps over this four-foot rail. And I mean he jumped, he just leaped it. But I yelled something to him, and I can't remember what it was, but I yelled something at him, and he reached out and caught the rail, swung around, slammed into it, pretty dramatic. Um, I thought he was gone. I thought there's no way this guy caught this, swung around, hit 220 feet down, and that's the end of it. But as I ran up there, I could see through the slots of the rail his white t-shirt. I said, Man, this guy's still here. So I stayed back and I started using the techniques that I've developed for myself and when I teach this to people over the years, from what I've done. So I raised my hand and I said, Hey, I'm Kevin. Is it okay if I come up and chat with you for a bit? And he wanted nothing to do with me. Nothing at all. He was screaming at me. If you come one step closer, I'm jumping. And and he was adamant about it. And he was mad, you know, just angry. He wanted nothing to do with me. He wanted everybody to leave him alone, let him think for a bit, and then more than likely he was gonna go. I'm not gonna let that happen if I can't, you know. So I keep talking to him. I stay back, I'm back away, and it's very, very difficult out there because of the wind, the traffic noise. It's a crappy place to do any kind of speaking with someone to do this negotiation, but you gotta work with what you have. So I kept talking to him. Hey, I'm not gonna touch you, I'm not gonna grab you, I just want to come up and talk with you. And this went on for quite some time until he trusted me just ever so slightly and said, you know what, just work your way up. I started working my way up little by little, step by step. And as I got closer to him again, I told him, I told him my first name, hey, I'm Kevin. I just want to talk with you for a while. I'm not gonna touch you, I'm not gonna grab you. So I did finally work my way up to him. And I didn't. I'm not gonna grab him. Um, and there's a reason for that, and I'll tell you, imagine the courage that it takes to go over. Many people have seen this photo. Imagine the courage that it takes to go over this rail. All that's there on the towers is this little bitty pipe. There's nothing, it's 220 feet down after that. But imagine the courage that it takes to come back over that rail and face everything again. So that's what I want. If you have the courage to come back over that rail and face it again, I think you have a much better chance of living than if I just kind of grab you and pull you over. Plus, that's very dangerous for everybody. So we started talking, and he wanted to talk, which was really, really cool. Let them vent, let them speak. So I didn't. I didn't interrupt him, I didn't offer advice or compare any situations, just let him speak. And that's what I did. So we were there well over an hour, and he started talking about his life, and he was adopted, his birth mother wanted nothing to do with him. Um he had a lot of issues growing up, but he loved sports, he was very much a people person, so what he tried to do was stay busy. And as he was going through sports and all of school, his parents got a divorce when he was around 13, and of course that hits kids hard. He thought he was the cause of it because it wasn't explained to him why his parents were getting a divorce. Um and that hit him really, really hard. He wasn't the cause of this, but that's what happened, and and that was tough. So as he progressed, he was supposed to be on some medication for a mental illness, but he stopped taking it, which we all know that's not the thing to do. Uh but he did these sports, and as long as he stayed busy, he was okay. What the issue was is when he went to sleep at night, is when all these thoughts would come into his head. So if he could just run himself ragged, run himself out every day, then he was good. He could just kind of fall into bed and fall asleep. So that's what he did. But when he got out of school, then these things started happening again. He got a job, he thought, you know what, if I start a family, things will get better. So he started a family, but his baby was born premature a couple of months, had to stay in the hospital. Now Kev thinks, what did I do to cause this? I caused damage to this baby. And then when his baby was able to come home, so was a bill for around $250,000. So on top of all this, he loses his job. So he thinks, I caused harm to my family, and now I can't support my family. I'm no good to anybody, I'm just doing everything wrong that's out there. He says, you know what, I've had enough. I'm a burden to everybody. I'm gonna go over that Golden Gate Bridge and jump. So he's in Oakland, has to ask directions on how to get to the bridge, and this is where we wind up. And this went well over an hour of me listening to him telling me all this and going back and forth and having some times of quiet and silence in there, also. And I basically didn't say a whole lot after in our negotiation world what we call minimal encouragers. Wow. Is that right? And then validating him, telling him, you know what, that man, that sounds tough. That's gotta be tough. But I'm real about it because I have the empathy and I'm feeling, God, this guy's had a really, really tough time. So as he neared the end of his story, I asked him, Man, you've been speaking for a while, but you've been here for a bit, and I can tell he's getting cold. It's cold out there all the time. I tell him, I want to take a break. I'm gonna step back and give you some time to think, but I'm only gonna do so if you promise me not to do anything until I come back up here. And he agreed to it. So I step back 15 feet or so. Give him some time. And he gives me some time to think about things because we all run out of things to say. And on these high-end stressful situations, it can be tough, really, really tough, because you run out and you think, What I gotta keep going, I gotta keep going with this. Thought about it for a while, and I'm thinking, what can I use to make this gentleman want to come back? And of course, his child, we're gonna talk about that. So I got his permission after a couple of minutes to come back up, raised my hand. Hey Kev, is it okay if I come back up? He said, sure. I go back up, started talking. Tell me more about your baby. And we started talking about this. I could see the emotions in him coming out. I know she had a birthday coming up. And I said, Well, don't you want to be there for her birthday? I said, Brother, you can come back here anytime you want. I would hope you come back here just to walk on this bridge, not to jump. But today, I want to see you get past this crisis. I'm gonna take you down and get you some help. And I stopped. I let him think about all this for a bit. And then I asked him, Kev, what do you think? And that's when he said, I want to come back over. And that's about when this photo was taken by a news helicopter out in the bay. And then I helped him come over. I don't want nothing happening now. And then I asked him, Kev, what did I do that helped this situation? And what did I do that wasn't so good that may have hurt this situation? Because I want to learn so I can be better at my craft and I can help others too. So he tells me, you listened, you let me speak, and you listened. Now I tell folks when I do presentations, why does somebody have to get up to this stage or cancer of a bridge at times for somebody to listen? Why can't we do this right here, right now?

SPEAKER_03 14:35

I I mean, I've I've watched the video of you know of the whole event. There's about three of them. Um of you know, the different mix-up. Every single time it brings a tear to my eye. And, you know, even right now I'm kind of holding back some emotions, and you know, it's it's extremely powerful. Um, you know, the simplicity of listening. Um it's difficult to do. I struggle at it a lot as well. We we tend to when we we you know somebody's uh we we feel is challenged or something, we feel that our ability to help is more of a a an actual action rather than a a source of comfort or um you know being present, you know, sometimes you can't fix it. And it's it's you know uh to just be present and acknowledge where you're at for somebody is is sometimes is a lot of the time what they're looking for is exactly and you know and especially for guys because we always want to fix things.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

I'm always at the at the couple of houses that I that I have always going down. I can do what I can do it. I wind up making it worse or something costing me a bunch of money. But we all we all it's our nature, a lot of a lot of people to to try and fix things, especially guys. I can fix it, let me handle it. Where many, many times, like you said, people just want to talk, let them vent. And I tell folks, don't compare situations. You know, sometimes it may be okay here. This is what I went through and this is what I did. Not telling what you should do. And you know, being there for them. I tell folks 80, 20, 70, 30, let that individual speak 80% of the time, and you 20%. What are you learning when you're speaking? Pretty much nothing, because it's coming out of us. Let them speak. Make it about them and not us.

unknown 16:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

It it uh one thing that I'm learning about that is uh I have found, you know, my issue uh was with death, and and you know, as I lost my mom and I I lost my wife, and you know, those around me, you know, were challenged when you try to talk about that. Um not as serious as you know this, but you know, one of the things I did learn in in that, like in in connection to this is exactly that is um you know when we talk we're we're actually almost devalidating what they're saying or or taking um that energy away. Um as a person trying to help somebody of that sense, how do you you know we have that that irking or that urge to to help, to actually do, but uh sometimes doing is just being. So I I guess what would be your suggestion for the helper in this in in a situation of of this type of sense?

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Yeah, when it comes to something like this, these high-end, very stressful things, have a conversation where that individual would be comfortable. So if I was going through a really tough time and and and I don't want I wouldn't want to have a conversation with someone like this in a coffee shop where other people are. Because what if I want to break down? I'm not you know how embarrassing that is, and to kind of air your dirty laundry in front of other people who you don't even know, and people are looking at you. So where that individual is comfortable, try not to have barriers between you. If there's a coffee table or something, maybe have it off on the side. There's lots of little things. Have it opened up, the air, maybe the windows are open so they're not shut, so it's not dark. Set it up to be friendly. But just you two, and then tell them, you know, hey, I care for you. This is what I've been seeing, this is what I've been hearing. I want to let you know I'm here for you. Maybe they're not suicidal, maybe it doesn't have to go that direction. Maybe they're just having a very stressful time. But let's find out if they're willing to talk. I want to let you know I'm here for you. You can call me 24 hours a day. If I can't pick up right then, I'll get back with you as soon as I can. You do not have to go through this alone. And that's huge because people think that they're stuffed in the corner by themselves, they're the only ones going through this.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

So to have a helping hand there can make a world of difference.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

You know, I I've you know, one of the connections I've found too, especially in this this world, is um usually that difficult conversation is the one that's actually needed. Um and you know, I've I've I've also noticed too with social media um or or texting, we've we've kind of grown into this world where we've removed ourselves from the responsibility of the emotions we create onto others, um, or vice versa. Um You know, I I'd love to kind of dig in kind of deep into that. Um and you know there was a sense of value of emotion when you were talking to him. Um, you know, that that connection. If if you were stone cold and doing that, I you know, obviously, you know, my guess is things would be different. Um my question would be that that connection, that emotion, the the you know, the the fact of putting your phone down, um, put you know, and and actually connecting with that person, being okay to maybe, you know, tear up um and allow those emotions to you know be real. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

And and that's what this is about, too. I try to put myself in their shoes, not to the point to where it affects me and affects my work. Because then I I won't be as effective, I think. I have to draw a line somewhere. But I also want to almost see what what they've seen and what they've been through. I tell folks I want to dig in like a tick. I want to be there. And then yes, exactly. What have they seen and done? And to validate people, you know, it's a very simple thing to do, but yeah, it it has to be from the heart. And to say, you know what? Like Kevby's told me all these different things, let's say five different things, and I say, you know what, man? That sounds really tough, all this stuff you've been through. Wow, that's that's just brutal. Something like that can carry a lot of weight with people when you mean it, when they see it in your eyes, that you're there with them. You're like, wow, that sounds really tough, and you're looking at your watch and everything else. No, that you're blowing it. Yeah, your full attention needs to be on this. So that's what I did with him and the other folks. And I've learned this from when I started working on the bridge. And and mind you, I had no training in this. I didn't go to school, I didn't know what to do. It was terrible, horrible. But eventually I went through crisis intervention training, which many, many officers are going through now. And then years later, um, I was one of the very few CHP Highway Patrol people to go through the FBI Crisis Negotiator School. So I was very lucky and blessed to be able to do that. And the ironic part is now I go back and I teach to them. So it's it's really cool. It all comes around. But that's what this is about. And it's continued learning. I still take classes. I still, and I've been off the highway patrol since 2013. You know, I still do presentations all over. I want to learn more so I can pass that along to young negotiators or wherever I'm speaking at hospitals, whatever it is. It's about passing along that information, get rid of the ego. Ego has no role in this. It is not about me. It is not the Kevin Briggs show. It's about those individuals. That's what this is about.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

I I think, you know, that that's huge. Um I I think, you know, we we mentioned perspective there, and I I think, you know, part of listening is understanding. Um and and understanding is part of understanding perspective. Um, and that perspective, kind of like you shared, um, you know, of Kevin's past that led up to now. Um that's a big part of what he was going through, and our pasts are a part of that. Um how do you process that? Like how yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

I think, and just trying to understand what brought them to the place where they are now. Usually it's not a single event. Usually it's it's some years and multiple events most of the time. So to get a feeling of that, you know what? And to also to normalize what they're going through. Hey Kev, anybody that's been through all this might be thinking about suicide. You know, this is it's all right to think about it. You're acting on it. You know, so let's talk about it. Let's see what's a different path you might be able to choose. I think many times folks are looking maybe like a horse with the blinders on. Let's try to open it up and see some different things. Not that I can fix anything, not at all. But at least we can see, you know what? If you come back over the rail, you have an opportunity once again to look at all this. And it takes a lot of courage to come back over the rail. But if you have the courage to come back over the rail, you have the courage to face this stuff.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

I I think you you just said another thing that that is huge. Um, you know, normalize. Um, society, I I've learned to loves to suppress what I feel is normal, um, you know, from death, addiction, these type of situations. Um, I'm not saying by all means that, you know, it's a everyday occurrence, but part of life brings some of these struggles through. And so those are normal. Um you know, it may be new and fresh for you going through it, but it's a part of life. And I think when things are normalized, you remove yourself from that survival mode, um, and it allows you to kind of think a little bit more clearly as opposed to that panic, especially when you're alone. Um, and I think that's kind of what you were you were talking about is you know, when you were talking to Kevin, helping him feel comfortable where he stands, as opposed to uh challenging him for what he's going through, whether you know unconsciously or not, the the goal is is is you know, we are here. It's not a bad thing. We are here, and once you embrace that, you then can build from it.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Right. And like you said, understanding something, you've had loss, you've had terrible loss, but you went through these different stages denial, anger, bargaining, the depression, the acceptance, and then hopefully the meaning. They passed, what's my meaning now? What was their meaning in life? So you went through all this. But I think if you know these things afterwards, or somebody can sit down and discuss it with you, you'll have a better understanding of it. Doesn't make it easier, but at least you know, you know what? These are some of the things I'm going to be going through. So I think when we talk to folks who are in crisis, not to try to fix things because they've already had a hundred people telling them, you know what you should have done, you should have done this. Why'd you do that? No. How about have you tried this? Possibly. Just simply by being there can make a world of difference. You know, just not trying to fix everything. Quit being the fixers, be the listeners and the people who understand. Man, that sounds really tough.

SPEAKER_03 26:54

And and it's it's a constant challenge. Um, you know, even when you get through it, it's it's you know, it's always going to be there because our brains are one of those things that doesn't forget the past. Um and like you said, it's a constant learning tool, um, you know, which I'm finding lessons that I've learned from past experiences today that I'm just you know uh inspired by. Um you know, I I I would have to ask, you know, as as how how did you how did you get to here? Um, you know, where police what inspired you to get to this?

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Um I've had a lot of trauma in my life. Just a few of them, I will tell you. Um I had testicular cancer when I was age 20. Turned 21 in the hospital. Most people on the west coast are going to Vegas. I was actually in the Army at the time and found out I had testicular cancer in Germany, had my first operation there. They flew me back. I landed back here in 1983 on December 5th. Uh, that's my birthday. So, like I said, most people on the West Coast are going partying somewhere, probably Vegas. I'm going to the hospital on my birthday. Testicular cancer. I had three operations, months of chemotherapy. So that's a tough one. My mom passed away when she was just 49 years old from cancer. We watched her die in front of us. That's how she just slowly slips away over a very, very long time as that cancer from smoking went from her lungs up into her brain, and I closed her eyes to see things like that. I rode a motorcycle on the highway patrol. One of the crashes I was involved in was another motorcyclist came around a turn way too hot on a country road, crossed over Wells, and hit me head on and took me out.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

I got this head injury. I got the helicopter flight to the hospital. I was out for several months of work. Um, I've had multiple surgeries for different things, skull bladders and different things and trauma. So these different traumatic events in our lives help shape us, if you can sit back and allow them to. So there's been a lot of things going on in my life. You know, I had a divorce to where my ex-wife wrote a suicide note to both of my boys, young boys at the time, and was looking up on the computer how to load a gun. Wow. Um, so I'm thinking when I want to stop by the house and see the kids, what am I gonna come into here? So a lot of different things helped shape me. By the way, she's doing very, very well. Happy Mother's Day to her. Um the kids are doing well.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

So happy Mother's Day to our moms, too. Today is actually uh recording that. So I I yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

And then my oldest boy, who's uh 20 now, when he was 14, he was suicidal and actually engaging in non-suicidal self-injury, a cutter, as they say. Yeah, a lot of brutal stuff. So it's and it's not easy. It is not easy, it's very difficult. So I do suffer from or battle with depression myself. I've tried a couple of different medications, had some therapies that have been wonderful for post-traumatic stress disorder and some things that I've been through. But things that I wouldn't have ever wanted to do. I don't need medicine. You know, I'm this, I was in the army, jumped out of planes, I worked in corrections, worked at San Quit and State Prison, I was on the high patrol as the motor sergeant, riding a bike all over, all these macho jobs to where we don't show a weakness. You simply don't. You do your job, you come back the next day, and you do it again. Well, all this stuff built up into me. And then I had a heart issue. I got three stents in my heart. I had three heart operations. So it just kicks you in the teeth all the time.

SPEAKER_03 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

It really does. You get knocked down, you get knocked down, you think you're tough, and you get knocked down again. But I've come to realize that I'm just very, very lucky and blessed to still be here. What can I do to help folks? And to see someone over that rail, the look in their eyes is one thing. And then if you can get there and speak to them, have them come back over, then the look in their eyes changes. They're scared, but there's that ray of hope and a little bitty smile at times. Um, and I tell folks I didn't save anybody, and I spoke with hundreds of people on that bridge, just not over the rail, but in the parking lots, on the on the sidewalks. I didn't save anybody. I think I spoke to folks who maybe helped them on a very dark day. You know, I didn't rush into a burning building and grab them and haul them out. But to be able to do that type of work was really, really cool. I studied it. I I tried to be better myself at it by asking people what could I do different? You know, it's it was for me what I wanted to do. Many guys, you know, they get into commercial or or whatever that may be. They want a canine dog, you know, something whatever that is, what whatever it is, me. It turned out to be negotiations. Um, I enjoyed it. It's brutal, it's tough, it's draining, but uh it it was something that I liked, I still like and try to try to learn more about it.

SPEAKER_03 32:10

I um I was not aware of the past that you had. Um, and it to hear that, um, first off, um, you know, it it's very amaz uh crazy to hear your mother past and very similar to mine. Um so as you were sharing that, I was kind of walking through you know my experience, especially on Mother's Day. Um but that is something that I've I've learned, and I I I've been using the term emotional intelligence. And I feel what's interesting is I'm not saying everybody has to have trauma in their life, but I'm what I've learned is those that have been challenged or have had to struggle in some sense seem to be more emotionally equipped or understanding through these type of situations. Um and you know, uh one of the things in my head I was thinking of is is you know, part of trauma is is denial and such. Um but I think that's a huge message for those that maybe when you don't understand something as extreme, that's usually a wake-up call to be to need to be challenged to understand because it's something that I I feel our society has has gotten um some of us get stuck into the culture or the area where we have grown up in. Um, and so we don't experience things that other people have. And so when we see somebody go through something extreme like this, and there's not a connection, you know, I that that's something I've noticed is that you know they're they're struggling to understand. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

You know, and I wish we all could go through a class when we're in school about active listening skills. Because I ask people on almost every presentation that I do, how many of you have attended a formal active listening skills class? It's not even one percent, but we try this every day, we're speaking, we're talking to folks every day. Why are we not taught this? Which should be the basics.

SPEAKER_03 34:29

I mean, I've said the same thing about you know the extremes of dealing with, you know, the communication and at the same time dealing with these topics. Um, you know, for example, death, you know, we're all going to die, yet it seems to be the biggest fear to talk about, um, you know, as we go through it. Um and and as you said, trying to normalize these things. Um, you know, I I've I've got to ask, um kind of going back to uh you know trying to help somebody. Um I wanted to point out one of the things that I I learned, you know, when when you sense somebody's going through a struggle, people are are afraid to speak up. They're afraid to bring up the conversation because they think that they may, you know, uh introduce the idea and start it. But I've also heard, you know, that is false. That like you said, they want to talk about it. And so sometimes being the one to step into the conversation and open it is actually more of bringing them away from those acts rather than pushing them to that. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_02 35:46

Totally agree, 100%, because you're allowing them to then open up and speak and say, you know what, it's okay to say the word suicide if it's going to that level. You know what? Man, I may not understand everything you're going through, but it certainly sounds like you've been through a lot of tough stuff. Anybody going through all that might be thinking about killing themselves. Have you been thinking about killing yourself? Let them answer. Now, what if they say yes? Take a breath. It's like I'm pausing here. Take a breath. Because what do we want to say? What the hell are you thinking? How can you do this to me? How can you do this to the family? Are you stupid?

SPEAKER_00 36:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

No, take a breath. But also, think about this before you went into the conversation. Have some what I call ammo.

unknown 36:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

471-471, the text line. We know a lot of people don't like to talk on the phone. Adolescents, they text. Have some ammunition with you in case they say, you know what, I have been thinking about it. Well, here, here's a number for you, because most people don't know what to do if somebody says yes. We have the 1-800-273 talk line. They can call that, you can call that, and say, hey, you know what? I have a friend here who is thinking about it, or I'm thinking about having a conversation. What are some of the things I could do? Look it up on the computer. So have a few things with you to say in case they do say yes. Well, here, here's what this. And if somebody does, you know what? Yeah, I am thinking about it. You don't have to worry about me by tomorrow. Whoa, 911, let's get some help. Let's get some help. And then I couldn't do this right without telling folks. Yes, you had this conversation. Yes, they said they were not going to hurt themselves, harm them to do anything. And all of a sudden you find out, boom, they did suicide. They did die by suicide. I want to tell you, it's not your fault. We're all going to feel guilty. There's a lot of unanswered questions, blame, and everything else. It's their act. They did it. I will tell you, out of all the folks that I dealt with, um, the very vast majority of folks didn't want to hurt anybody. But they are in such emotional pain, they cannot just get past it. They want you to have a hell, a happy and healthy life, live as long as you can. You know, they don't want to hurt anybody. They just can't see the end to this driving emotional pain. So it's their act. They did it.

SPEAKER_03 38:19

I you know that that's huge. You know, um the goal here is is it it's it's it's that weird society thing. You know, it's it's society's made it feel unnormal. We need to make it normal because it happens. They need to feel normal, and that's part of why they're in that feeling, is because they feel suppressed by society and alone, and so they feel awkward to talk about it. And I will have to say too that this doesn't have to be a suicidal conversation. This applies to all the heavy conversations out there. Um, but but you know, I I I think the most important thing here is to have the conversation, to not slip it under the room, and to to actually, you know, sometimes learning how to understand yourself. Um, you know, one thing, one thing I've I've I've really challenged myself with, um, especially in, you know, uh, you know, relationship, is understanding when that that line is crossed from when it's a conversation to where, you know, uh an argument or whatever. But I I think the biggest thing is is to normalize conversation and to be open with it and to have the in-person conversation. And I say that because texting is not a conversation. Texting, you don't get the emotions, you don't get, you know, and an emotion is 90% of communication. You know, well, I don't want to cry in front of somebody. Well, I know it's tough, but that emotion, that is part of the communication that needs to be had. Um, and and I think that's important for people to remember is you know, it's uncomfortable, but it's safe, and that's what you need to do is have that conversation. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Um it's a very uncomfortable conversation. And don't be afraid. I want to add one thing to that, if I may.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

Yeah, please.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

Don't be afraid of silence. What happens is you and I are talking, and we don't like dead air on any kind of radio or interview, but if we just stopped, people don't like silence, so they say something. They'll tell you something, and they and they're not harmful, they don't mean any harm, but they'll say something like, you know what, everything's gonna be fine. I know what is. I'm gonna tell you I would rather have silence than that because we don't know everything's gonna be fine. We don't know. I don't want to provide false hope. I go, man, it sounds really, really tough. You know, I hope this gets better for you by hanging around, by sticking around, by being here, you have the opportunity. And I will do what I can to assist you. And I'm sure there's others also. But I don't want to provide for false hope. Um, don't be afraid of silence. And a lot of times people will take that over providing them some BS stuff.

SPEAKER_03 41:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

You know, just being there for someone can make a world difference.

SPEAKER_03 41:24

I I think um, you know, you you you kind of said it that that false hope. I think sometimes people fall into when you're talking to somebody, oh, it's gonna be okay. Well, I I I think those are actually triggers to some people that devalidates the connection. Um, and I think sometimes, like you said, that silence is kind of that, you know, there's communication happening there. You're you're sitting together processing what has been talked about, and um that in itself is communication.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

It is, and because we know communication is not just speaking, it's your body language. You know, if your arms are folded like this and your feet are back, well, you know, brother, everything's gonna be fine. Everybody has hard times, you gotta suck it up, and you know, that's that's not the way this is gonna be. That's not how we do this.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

I I think I think another thing I I I want to put in there too is um, and it's kind of connected to you know what you were saying about, you know, obviously don't take responsibility for when when somebody, you know, afterwards does that, it it is not your fault. You're doing everything you can. Um but at the same time, I I want to say, you know, keep the effort forward and make sure to not take things personal when you talk to people. Because I think sometimes what happens, and I say that in the fact of you know, um sometimes when you get angry, a lot of people have that outward energy, and so dealing with you know some of these type of situations, you'll have that outward energy. And I know in myself I've had struggle in you know, close and similar to these type of things, and one of my difficulties was I got cornered in a way where I had to let it out, but then that person I was letting it out to, although it wasn't their fault, they got offended, and then all of a sudden we have this back and forth of instead of this understanding that sometimes that outward energy is the person understanding or b becoming uh friendly with the relationship that they're in with themselves. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 43:49

Yes, yes, yes, and and it really these are tough, these are tough conversations. Yeah, we run out of things to say, and sometimes we care so much that we blurt something out. That right when we said we go, Oh, what did I just say? I didn't mean it like that. Well, you said it.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:05

And once you say it, it's out there. But that happens to all of us. We we care. But if we think about it, then I think we can have a a better understanding of okay, I'm gonna have this conversation with this individual. Here's some of the things I don't want to bring up or talk about.

SPEAKER_03 44:22

It it's the idea to continue the process, just continuing the process, um and and not thinking about doing it wrong, not thinking about doing it right, but being aware of what you're doing and continually trying to move forward together, um, you know, is key. Um absolutely we've we've talked we've talked about helping. Um, you know, I'd I'd love to kind of switch paths or or switch sides and say, you know, I'm the one struggling. Um, you know, I I I'm alone, you know, I feel like everybody just doesn't understand me. I can't find somebody to just listen. What do I do? Where do you go?

SPEAKER_02 45:06

You know, look at where you're at. And and unfortunately, like you said, when we first started this conversation, so much of this evolves around money. Do you have insurance? Can you get help? And then how long is it until you can get help? But there's also what is you what is your own support group? Who do you have that may be able to talk to you that is not gonna blow you away with you need to do this, this, this, this, and this. So if not, find something, find a support group of some sort that you want to be involved in. And you know, there's lots of things out there you can volunteer for. Um, the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, if it's if it pertains to this, you know, National Alliance on Mental Illness Illness. There's a lot of things out there. Um, be careful of things like Facebook and Instagram because you don't know who's out there, what are they gonna say? Be careful of things like that. But there is a lot of help out there. Check with your city, your community for mental health and see what they have to offer. You know, there's some neat and there's and there's a lot of articles about this too for self-care.

SPEAKER_03 46:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

What can I do right now? So there's some interesting things out there. Maybe you need, and maybe you don't want to, because I didn't want to. I had all these different issues, and I'd take all these pills for the heart and the blood pressure. It's very hard for me to calm down. So I went and I tried yoga. Try different things. Yoga wasn't for me. I only did it once, I should have given it more chance. But I do TM, transcendental meditation, and that really works for me. Brings down my pulse, my blood pressure. What do you do? Do you get out and walk? For many people, including me at times, it's very difficult for us even to get out of the house. You just you got a lot of anxiety. And I get days for three days at a time, I just can't leave the house. But if I force myself to and go on a walk, go on this three-mile walk, and that's what I've been trying to do lately, is to go out for three miles and do these walks. That can really help and change your attitude because we get stuck in this kind of a funk, and a change of scenery can really help.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

Uh, small little steps of trying to change course. Uh you know, I I I remember a doctor uh when I hurt my back, uh, every day was a different day. And he he said, Don't look at every single day. You gotta look at the week. And it it's that idea that if you if you keep adding small little changes, uh you'll be able to get through, you know. Um, one thing I would have to say too is um, you know, uh at the beginning and the end of this, I'll I'm gonna share the numbers and and the um information of the podcast and the YouTube, I'll have numbers for people to call and uh connect with. But it it's important to communicate and to talk with others. Um and I would have to say too, you know, uh coming to mind is is they they do have groups uh for you to communicate with. Um and I think what's important too is that if you're a friend and you don't know how to communicate, be the friend to go with that person to these groups or these different things so that way they at least are comfortable in the uncomfortable, they have something to kind of keep them comfortable, so there's also that. Um by all means don't challenge them in the fact of you know cornering them uh with the help. It's important to kind of work together with that, but um you know, being a part of that is important. Um I want to ask you about uh your book and um you know pivotal points and you know go into that a little bit. Can you let us know about that?

SPEAKER_02 48:46

So the book is called Guardian of the Golden Gate, protecting the line between hope and despair, and it's kind of my life and a lot of different things that have happened, and a lot of the folks that I have dealt with up on the Golden Gate Bridge and in my own family. And I wanted to have a lot of takeaways in there too, just like when I present. Um, I can tell you stories, but they all have takeaways too. What can we do now? You know, what can you learn out of these things? So that's kind of where the book is at. I have another one coming out. It's gonna be a workbook, a quality of life workbook for folks. And I'm working with two different uh mental health professionals, and we're gonna cover a lot of bases, but I wanted this to be simple and effective. So it's supposed to be coming out uh the end of this month here.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 49:32

And okay, and we're gonna make it tailored to specific groups. Um, the our first one is for the Department of Corrections, because correctional staff have very difficult lives, very difficult lives, uh, a much higher rate of suicide. So I wanted to focus on that first, and then we're gonna take it to police officers and firemen, general public, but it but it's all about our quality of life. How can we improve that? And when we improve ours, we're improving those around us. So working on that. And then um my website is pivotal points, it's it's www.pivotal hyphenpoints.com, and I can be reached at kevinbriggs at pivotal hyphenpoints.com.

SPEAKER_03 50:18

Perfect. We will put that uh as well in the description. Um no, I I I love that. I I you know one thing I have found um in writing my story, um, and and I know y you kind of said this too, is we don't fix our past. We're c continuously processing, and I think by sharing our story, it's very inspiring of self because it's helping others. Um and and and I I think everybody needs to remember that they have a story and that you know sometimes they lean into others to feel like you know, a hero or such, but it's it's a sense of sharing our story or our experience to help normalize and and uh help others feel comfortable going through what they're going through. Because I mean your story is your story, my story is mine, but as you as as we both know, you know, these are stories that others have gone through as well. Um and it's inspiring to help, and I'm I'm glad that you're doing that.

SPEAKER_02 51:32

Thank you, and and that's what this is about. That's really what this is about, and not comparing them, you know, maybe at some point we talked about different things that have happened, but being there for somebody else, having the empathy for them, and letting them know that they don't have to walk through this alone. I mean, that's it's just huge. It really is. And when you see that, and when that individual says, Thank you, thank you, you know, I've been going through a tough time. I may not be here, but for you coming in and assisting me through this.

SPEAKER_03 52:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 52:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 52:05

Sometimes it doesn't take much time either.

SPEAKER_02 52:08

No, and I think we all have a few minutes. Do people think, oh, only a therapist can do this? A lot of folks don't want to go to a professional therapist, a mental health professional, but they'll listen to a friend, a good friend who's there, not to tell them what they need to do, but just to be there and help them along the way.

SPEAKER_03 52:30

I uh I I had a friend that I was calling and I was in a very difficult time. Um he answered and uh shared how he was he was busy and he he just didn't have many words to respond to what I had to say. And uh I told him, I said, to be honest, the value of you sitting there for the five minutes you did to listen to what I had to say was more worth anything that could have happened after. So thank you. And it was kind of his wake-up call to realize, wow, like, oh, like you're right, I didn't have to answer. That you know, thanks for validating, you know, the the five minutes I gave you, and sometimes that's all it is.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Now he'll think about this and go, you know what? This is this stuff is more important than whatever I had planned anyway.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Yep, yep. Um, so I I you know I I couldn't be more excited to have you on. Um again, it it it feels weird coming up as I as I shared the excitement for that, but you know, I I just you know sense everything, it it's it's been inspiring um, you know, to to be inspired by others, and you're one of those that you know, seeing this story and and talking to you, talking to Kevin. Um I'm excited because we have uh another episode planned where you know you and Kevin are gonna sit together and you know we're gonna talk about this together, and I think that's gonna be huge. Um, you know, at the end of these podcasts, I I ask people, um, you know, Brianna, uh, my late wife that I lost, um, she created an amazing quote, choose your attitude, create your life. Um, we kind of touch base a little bit on this in our talk about you know uh how simple, you know, our are trying to change that attitude a bit sometimes um is powerful. But um I like to hear uh you know the the guests that come on and and their inspiration or or uh their interpretation of it.

SPEAKER_02 54:34

So I'd like to ask you um if you were to interpret that, how would you know having been diagnosed with cancer, having been diagnosed with heart issues, having lost my mother, having been involved in some crashes and all these things, how we go through that? And I didn't handle probably any of those in my mind properly as as I could have, because you you f you freak out. You think, is this it? I'm going down, this is it. But I've seen people in the hospital. When I was in Letterman Army Medical Center in San Francisco, in the Army hospital going through this, I was going through chemo. A gentleman who who was the same age as me, 20 years old, lost his leg. He had knee cancer. They they cut off his leg. His whole process of going through this, he was laughing all the time. It was it was amazing. He gave me a new sense of being. This guy lost part of his leg, but he was smiling and happy to be here. It was just amazing to watch this individual. So how we go through things can make a big difference in our recovery and how we continue on. That's how I'm looking at this. It can make a world of difference. It is tough, it is not easy to get a diagnosis, or somebody else that you love to see them go through that. Um, it can be just absolutely brutal, but oh, I've I've seen folks go through trauma and wow, it's it's amazing to see that. So I try to emulate that for some things.

SPEAKER_03 55:59

Thank you. No, I I I agree. It's um, you know, as I tell people, it's the easiest thing to say and the most difficult thing to do. Um because you know, it is, you know, we're all going through something and it's a constant challenge, and we're gonna be challenged. Um, but to have that energy and that reminder that, you know, we're gonna get through or you know, we're gonna do our best, um, you know, and challenge ourselves to uh you know do what we can to get through it is is definitely huge. Um well I appreciate you so I appreciate you so much for being on today. Um it it's an honor, and um I will uh definitely uh put the information on your stuff and um yeah, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 56:43

Oh, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 56:46

Thank you so much. That is today's podcast. Thank you for listening. I do want to take care of some really quick business, real quick. If you or someone you know has expressed some signs of suicide, there is the National Suicide Prevention Hotline. That number is 1-800-273-8255. Again, that's 1-800-273-8255. Please seek help. They are there to support you. If you'd like to go on the website, it is suicidepreventionlifeline.org. Again, suicidepreventionlifeline.org. They do have chat available so you can chat online. But either way, if you or someone you know, please reach out to them. Help is available. Thank you everybody for listening to today's podcast. It has been amazing. The Choose Your Attitude Podcast is on YouTube and all podcast channels. As always, please like us and subscribe to us and leave your comments and reviews. We love to hear what you guys have to say. And go visit chooseyourattitude.com where you can get men's and women's apparel full of premium encouragement and to help our listeners because we value you. We're giving you 20% off your first order by using the code podcast20. That's podcast20. You get 20% off your first order when you come and order at chooseyourattitude.com. Thank you everybody for listening. It has been a true honor. We will see you on the next episode of the Choose Your Attitude Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

Thank you for listening. To reach out to Nick and the Choose Your Attitude community, find us on social media at Choose Attitude Create Life. Share your attitude with the world with merch guaranteed to encourage at chooseyourattitude.com. Be sure to share us with friends, family, and colleagues. And while you're at it, leave us an uplifting review. We'd very much appreciate it. Check back for new episodes. Until next time, choose your attitude, create your life.