Ep. 330 What are “spiritual conversations”? Part 3 of 3 Doug Simmons

Doug and Laura Simmons are on staff with the Navigators and live in the Kansas City area. Today Doug shares practical thoughts on how to introduce and develop "spiritual conversations" in a natural and non-pressured way. 

The Insider by Jim Petersen and Mike Shamy

Resource mentioned on the podcast: Spiritual Conversations (free PDF download).

Transcript

Doug Simmons 0:01

Standing in line in the Panera. I'm three people back. It's busy on a weekday morning, and somebody rushes in. Businesswoman rushes in, younger than I am. She sees the line and I hear her kind of go like, oh, clearly she's in a hurry. She's got to be somewhere. She's probably picking up bagels for a meeting. And I'm aware of this. I'm so I turn to her and I say, sounds like you're in a hurry. Yeah, I forgot. I got to get bagels today. I said, well, here, I'll take take my spot. I'll I'll get behind it. And she looks at me like, who does that? It's shocking that somebody would actually give their space on a busy morning. This is it won't help much, but it'll help a little. Go ahead and take my spot. My hope in that is that something will register in her mind, wow, you you gave up something of yours for me as stranger. Why would you do that?

David Dennis 0:52

What are spiritual conversations? These are fantastic opportunities to relate to someone in a deeper way and hopefully tap into a deeper spiritual interest. Hi, I'm David Dennis with the Kansas Communities Ministry with the Navigators. Thank you so much for joining us today on Making Disciples Naturally, where we believe that making disciples and developing spiritual generations should be a natural part of every believer's walk. Chuck Coulson, founder of Prison Fellowship, said, if we will work hard at learning to listen well and become a consistent, clear, and an excellent conversationalist, there will be no shortage of people willing to engage with us. End quote. Today, Mr. Doug Simmons helps us understand the purpose of spiritual conversations as well as some very practical examples. I add on a few thoughts at the end as well. We also are including some helpful resources in the show notes, including links to some of the books that are helpful in this area, as well as a free downloadable booklet on the topic of spiritual conversations. I hope you'll check those out. Let's turn a corner here, and uh I know another area of interest uh that you have is what we might call pre-evangelism or bringing up spiritual things in conversation. So help us understand your approach to that, kind of some ideas on that.

Doug Simmons 2:25

So my favorite uh training device or book on this is called The Insider by Jim Peterson and Mike Sheamy. Uh, it's available on Amazon. I think it was published in 03, so it's a little over 20 years old. It's a wonderful book on becoming an insider. And an insider in their language simply means a friend in the life of another person who gains some level of trust and rapport so that when topics below the level of news, weather and sports come up, it doesn't rattle anybody. So that's the idea. So so my my thought is everybody I meet, I am I'm in in my mind, I'm thinking, how can I build a bridge? How can I make a point of connection? How can I show interest? How can I pay attention? How can I offer friendly, humble, appropriate engagement, and believing that that if I can God can do that, lead me down that that into a a bit of rapport or trust with somebody, that it will turn into a repeated opportunity for a deeper friendship where a spiritual conversation, a gospel center conversation will be natural at some point in the future. And if I've built rapport, then I can have a gospel conversation that's weighty because of the rapport. And it's it's not awkward. If I try to be bolder with the gospel, then I've built rapport, that's weird. People feel weird like, hey man, just take your bagel and get out of my get out of my life. I don't want to hear about your Jesus, right? But but if you've built some rapport with them, you can talk about bold things and they'll have ears to hear, they'll they'll listen, they'll at least be polite. So that's kind of just my mindset. How do I how do I make a friend with this person? And friend can be, you know, just a cursory connection. I mean, Laura and I walk at the Oak Park Mall almost every day. Uh in the w in the summer when it's hot, we don't sweat. And in the winter, when it's cold, we don't freeze. So we're at we're at the mall a lot. And so we walk, we walk four laps, it takes an hour. We see people at the mall all the time, and and I mean, there's all kinds of common little things that are very easy and comfortable bridge builders. A dad and a mom with a baby, uh stroller. Cute little baby. Doesn't even matter if the baby's cute or not. If the if you say the baby's cute, you're their friend, right? Like, oh, that baby's cute, or or I love I love those, um, I love those chief's booties. It's got a Nike swoop on it, and it's red and orange. Oh, yeah, you know, my aunt gave those to me. So all of a sudden, guess what? You these are two strangers that are now having a conversation about this baby in the cart because I just noticed. And it helps that Laura's with me, it helps that we're you know in in that setting, we're old enough to be their parents. I wouldn't normally do that. I would not do that if I was just me alone. I wouldn't engage with a young mom. Yeah, but if Laura's with me, and if especially if her husband's there, and if and if he's carrying the baby, I'm gonna just I'm gonna pour attention on him to say, Man, you're doing a great job as a dad. I love I love how you're out here walking in the mall holding your child. I mean, whoever says that to him? Nobody. But here he is, and I'm gonna I'm gonna celebrate that. And then or or people will have something on a t-shirt, and I'll say, Oh, Green Bay, are you are you a northerner? Or how's this heat? How's this heat doing for you if you if you're a Green Bay fan? Oh well, I was up there for a couple years on my job, but I'm actually from here. Well, all of a sudden, boom, you're in a conversation. And well, what what's what what took you up there? Oh, I sell heavy machinery. Oh, I I know a couple of contractors in town that are excavation guys, you know, uh somebody named initially this real person, SB. Oh, yeah, I've I know that I know that company. Well, he's a friend of mine from church. What have I just done there? I've built a bridge, I've flown a flag that I'm a guy that goes to church. I haven't said Jesus yet, but that's that's a flag flying moment. So I try to insert little references along the way as I'm connecting with people that somehow identify me as somebody that has some room for God in my life. And and if they're Christians, they'll pick it up just like that, and they'll usually respond, Oh, where do you go to church? Or and then then you know you've been a Christian and you have that conversation. I was visiting a friend this week in the hospital, the tech came in. I said, Are you all right? And she goes, No, not yet. And I said, On the way, you're working hard toward it. She goes, Yeah, it's gonna it's gonna take a little while. And I said, Well, my daughter's a daughter's a nurse, and uh she had an eight-year run. She went four years to K K State and then decided she wanted to be a nurse, and then did four more. Two years at Johnson County and two years at KU Med. So man, I I love that you're you want to do that, you wanted you're you're pushing to do that. Great job. So I'll somehow reference Courtney's history to identify with this tech who's checking my friend's blood, and then I'll reference um say say the nurse has a has a um Kansas City sporting long-sleeve t-shirt on. I was oh, you're a soccer fan? She goes, Oh, I love soccer. I said, Well, my daughter, who's the nurse I just mentioned, loves soccer, and she has a nine-year-old that loves soccer. They had they had a they have a game on Sunday at eight, which I can't go to that one because we'll be at church, but normally we go to these nine-year-old soccer games, it's really fun. So, once again, I'm connecting the nursing thing, I'm connecting my daughter, I'm connecting the hard work, I'm acknowledging what she's the path that she's on. I'm referencing, I I don't I'm that she's a soccer fan. I'm just looking for clues to to reference and connect on, and I tie it back to my daughter who's old enough to have a nine-year-old, both of whom love soccer, and we go to see him, except we're not this Sunday because we'll be at church. Well, that doesn't feel like some random visitor in a hospital trying to tell her about Jesus. That's that's a person noticing her and being a friendly person. So the so the reference to to church or to Jesus somehow is it's not upsetting. Because and my my point would be that that in this little connection, you can build rapport pretty quickly. You know, it can be pretty immediate sometimes, and that allows you to fly a flag or or make a gospel comment. So that's those couple examples. And just one more. I've been standing in line in a Panera, I'm throwing three people back, it's busy on a weekday morning, and somebody rushes in, a businesswoman rushes in younger than I am. She sees the line, and I hear her kind of like clearly she's in a hurry, she's gotta be somewhere. She's probably picking up bagels for a meeting, and there's a line. And I'm aware of this. I'm you know, my guy's not here yet. So I turn to her and I say, Sounds like you're in a hurry. Yeah, I forgot, I gotta get bagels today. I said, Well, here, I'll take take my spot, I'll I'll get behind you. And she looks at me like, who does that?

David Dennis 9:56

Yeah.

Doug Simmons 9:57

It's shocking that somebody would actually give their space on a busy morning. I says, uh it won't help much, but it'll help a little. Go ahead and take my spot. And my my hope in that is that something will register in her mind, wow, you you gave up something of yours for me, a stranger. Why would you do that? I'm hoping that's percolating. And whether she voices it or not, I want that to percolate in her mind, and maybe she'd even say, Why did why did you do that? And I'll say, Well, somebody did something for me once that was so significant, it changed my life, and it's it's made me much more aware of opportunities to to give to somebody else because of what that someone did for me. Now who am I talking about? I'm talking about Christ, yeah. But I'm not naming him yet because I'm I'm casting I'm not a fisherman, but I'm casting that little lure out there, and she she may just turn and go, I'm glad it was good for me today, because I got another spot in line. Or she may say, what what happened? I said, Well, I was I was a I had evil that shouldn't condemn me to death, but somebody died in my place, and you may know his name is Jesus. Well that's a gospel in a nutshell. She may go, Oh, okay, now you know, turn around and you know I'm done. So because my boldness just succeeded my rapport, right? But she gave a couple nibbles to the lure. Um, so that's kind of how I approach trying to start friendships that can lead to conversations about deeper things.

David Dennis 11:44

And particularly if you pray about going back to the same place repeatedly, like you're saying, at the mall or Panera or whatever. Hopefully you'll see that person again and maybe be able to go deeper if there's any interest on their part. Yes. That's good. You know, I really appreciate Doug's comments in this area. He has a lot of very practical experience and examples that have been very helpful in my life. You know, in any conversation, our goal is to love the person well and help them take even one step closer to Christ. John Hopper, in his book Giving Jesus Away, notes that there are three major roadblocks to acceptance of the gospel emotional, spiritual, and intellectual. What do we tend to focus on mostly? I think the intellectual objections. But we mustn't forget the other two, the emotional and the spiritual objections. You know, my wife and I met with some old friends in a restaurant for dinner. I've had many conversations with the man, and I truly respect him. He's super intelligent and practical. He calls things just as they are. We chatted for about two or two and a half hours, I would say, and I had prayed before we met that we might go a little deeper, have a spiritual conversation or discussion. He has not been uh interested in talking about Jesus or about the Bible and that sort of thing. But after about an hour and a half of reminiscing and talking about our kids and our work and so on, he shared about his struggles with depression. He shared his hardships growing up, the abuse he endured, the difficult family life, and the fact that his family constantly moved from place to place. Well, toward the end of that time, I didn't know what to say, so I just asked him, Where is God in all this? Where is God in all this? He said that he had been so depressed at one point that indeed he had prayed, even though he really didn't believe in God. He then went on to ask me several questions. He talked about what about the person in a foreign country that has never heard about Jesus? Is that person condemned to hell? He asked me, Do dogs go to heaven? Or how do we know there is no sin in heaven? Well, I tried to address these issues as best I could. Those were the intellectual barriers, but later as I reflected back on our discussion, I realized that his real question may have been, where was God when I was hurting? And all his questions about dogs going to heaven and so on were somewhat of a smokescreen. He didn't have intellectual questions as much as he had emotional and maybe spiritual hurt that he was trying to deal with. Well, he wasn't ready yet for the bridge illustration, but I am praying that he will be someday soon. I thought of myself as someone who was sent by God, not with all the answers, but just as a loving friend who could maybe open up a spiritual conversation to see what the Holy Spirit would do next. I found it helpful to remember a simple paradigm for conversation, and that is a good conversation leading to a God conversation leading to a gospel conversation. Good to God to gospel. I was at a conference this winter where the college ministry talked about conversations in terms of this good God gospel paradigm. I think that is helpful, being intentional about moving from small talk to a good conversation, then if the Holy Spirit opens the door to a God conversation, and prayerfully when the time is right to a gospel conversation. So how do we define these? A good conversation simply goes a little deeper. It opens the door to the spiritual world. For example, I have a good friend who frequently asks people, is there something I can pray for you about? Or I'm curious, curious, tell me about your spiritual journey, or tell me your story. That is when a superficial conversation about the weather, sports, and news goes to a deeper level, talking about something that's deeper in a spiritual sense. So that's a good conversation, but then a God conversation goes deeper yet into opening the door for them to share their idea about maybe who God is, what he is like, what their picture is of God, who was Jesus, and so on. Questions here might be, do you think there is a heaven or hell? Or in view of all that's going on in the world today, do you think there will be a time of judgment or a reckoning someday? Or do you think there needs to be? Recently I ran into someone uh in our park behind her house as we were playing with our granddaughter. I noticed that he had uh a young girl with him. He would he would be probably 45 to 50 years old, and we just struck up a conversation, and he said that was his daughter, it was her eight eight-year-old uh birthday in that time frame, and he was spending the day with her in the park. So I asked more about what he does. He said he's uh he's an engineer, he spent much of his life traveling really the world and working for a large uh uh company. He would be gone for weeks at a time, and he and his wife realized that he was not able to spend time with his daughter as as he would like to do, and he realized the years were getting away. He said in January, just recently, he and his wife decided that he would um kind of put a hold on things, quit his job, they had some money saved up, and she continues to work, and he would just wait and see what developed, just in order to spend time with his daughter. And so I was very impressed by that. I told him, frankly, boy, that's that's really remarkable, and I think that's very admirable for you to um make your daughter a priority, to take time off like that and just to spend time with her. Uh I asked more about his life, kind of what he enjoyed doing, and in turn he asked me what I did. I told him I was a retired physician, and he asked me what I did all day. And I said, Well, part of what I do is to be kind of a spiritual coach for people. And so that allowed me to then open up the conversation to a God-level conversation by asking him, uh, what church do you go to? And he told me uh that he doesn't really attend much. He used to attend a church, but he doesn't anymore. I asked, Do you think there's a heaven or hell? What's what's your view on that? And he was very open about it. He said he didn't think that God would send many people, if any, to hell. He thought most people were good. So that opened up the door to the God level of conversation from a good conversation talking about more than just the weather. We talked about his um desire to get to know his daughter better and to um spend time with her, to a God conversation talking about something a little bit deeper in terms of who is God, does he believe in heaven or hell, and so on. We didn't go to the gospel conversation because uh our relationship wasn't wasn't ready for that at the time. I have to ask myself, if I'm not seeing fruit, does that mean that God is not working? And I have to remind myself, absolutely not. My friend I referenced earlier had clearly been thinking about spiritual things. You know, God is always at work drawing people to himself through trials, through events, through needs, through the word, and so on. But we need to take heart. He is at work. Our job is to be available, to take that step to talk to someone, to bring up spiritual things. Well, I pray that each of us will look at ourselves with our new identity in Christ as someone who is sent, who joyfully, we joyfully get to share Jesus with everyone we can. That doesn't mean telling the entire gospel story, but it means going a little bit deeper, going from news weather and sports to a good conversation, and then if the conversation allows, going to a God conversation, and then finally to a gospel conversation if possible. Our motivation must be love. We are compelled by love, by the love of Christ. We want to communicate sincerely and authentically, to build relationships naturally, and but to be intentional about bringing up spiritual things and then leaving the results to God. You know, we cannot save anyone, obviously. We cannot force anyone to believe. The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts of sin, according to John chapter 16. But we can remember that in the people we speak to, God is already at work in some way. We can relax, we can be used by Him. It's easy in our world today to stay in our little cocoon or our bubble and be comfortable. But Jesus is calling us to courageously step outside of our comfort zone for his sake and for the sake of the eternal destiny of those around us. He wants us to take the initiative and engage with others. I hope these thoughts uh from Doug Simmons and myself have been helpful to you. Don't forget to check out the show notes for some helpful links and a free download. Join us next time as together we learn more about making disciples naturally.