Ep. 343 What does making disciples look like in challenging situations? Part two of two: Interview with Paul

Paul and Susan (names changed for security purposes) teach in a school in North Africa. Influenced by The Navigators (c) while in college, they continue to have a heart for individuals and for making disciples, even in challenging conditions. Paul shares insights, lessons learned and opportunities taken in this podcast. 

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SPEAKER_00 2:55

One of the ways I've seen God's hand at work. It's really exciting to see God at work in someone's life. Now, obviously, in God's economy, we He chooses to use us and we play a part in it, but God doesn't depend on us. And so it's really encouraging for me to see somebody that God has been at work and maybe even I haven't done a thing about. And there's been several relationships where it's been clear God through other Christians or people I don't even know has started this work in someone's heart and kind of this open door. And I get to walk into it and talk to somebody and be a part of this process of either pointing them to Jesus for the in salvation or discipling them along the way. And uh one example would be this woman got to engage with for just one week, and she had been uh set up with us to an agency to help train us in the language. She wasn't quite as equipped as the agency wanted, and so we had to end up letting her go. But in that one week, there was one topic, one lesson in our book that was about wisdom, and we had the opportunity in that conversation to share the good news, and that was on the last day that we had her. The next day we learned that she wouldn't be coming back, and so just this one week we had it with this young woman who's now had the opportunity to hear the good news. Um, just not something that I could have manufactured.

David Dennis 4:18

What does making disciples look like in different and challenging situations? How exciting it is to see God's amazing hand at work in conditions that we often have no control over. Hi, I'm David Dennis with the Kansas Communities Ministry with the Navigators. Thank you so much for listening to Making Disciples Naturally, for we believe that making disciples should be a natural part of every believer's walk. Today we hear the conclusion of my interview with Paul, who shares what it means to make disciples in a foreign environment, which is often challenging and surprising. For security reasons, we are using pseudonyms for his and his wife's names. Paul and his wife Susan teach in a secular school in North Africa. They were influenced by the navigators while in college and have continued to have a heart for impacting the world for Christ by investing in individuals in discipling relationships. I think we can learn a lot from their perspectives and experiences. I start today by asking what we can do to develop relationships with our Muslim neighbors and friends. What advice would you have for us here in central U.S. in terms of interaction with our Muslim friends and neighbors? Um, what are some questions? What are some you know ways we can reach out to them, would you say?

SPEAKER_00 5:39

A couple things come to mind. First of which, I have been a part of international student ministry throughout my time in in the U.S. And inviting people into your homes is a great way, whether it's it can be anything. There can be a reason for it's a holiday, it could just be you're offering the the open door to show hospitality. I think that's powerful. It's biblically expected that we were people who are hospitable to others, especially people who may not be comfortable to invite over. It's easy to have a have a family member stay at your house when they're passing through. It's not quite as easy to have someone that you're different from. And but I I think I could share also, as someone who has lived in multiple countries, I've been the object of hospitality. I've been able to see people who don't have the same belief in Jesus that I do, who still show hospitality and are and help when I've been in a time of need. And that's really it's been powerful to see someone caring about someone who's not part of their tribe, their community. They may have different reasons, but I think I would really encourage people here to take an initial step. Uh maybe a different story. I when I one of my first international student interactions was with a young Chinese guy who just looked angry. Um he he was eating in the dining hall and he usually just had a frown on his face, or it looked like a frown. But I forget why. I just I ended up taking a seat with him, and he ended up being one of my close friends, and we had a great relationship. And so things that we perceive about someone may not be true of them, you know, that a lot of truisms about that, but it it really is true. And uh I guess one other thing would be no, Islam is not monolithic, it varies not only country to country, but even in the country we're in, almost family to family. And so we don't want to paint people into a box and say, because you have this particular worldview, or you say you're this, therefore you have all of these other beliefs. Um, I would encourage people just to ask questions and not assume too much about someone.

David Dennis 7:53

That's great, great advice. Thank you so so much for that. Yeah. Getting back to your previous comment about needing to be connected to the body, uh, you mentioned there is a small church. You you do have a group of believers with which you can have fellowship.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Yes. And that was before my wife and I even considered going to this location. And we were a family with young children. We wanted to be wise, and so we wanted to consider what is going to be healthy for our family spiritually. And so we made sure to ask questions about the Christian community that did exist in the city. And we we met several other believers who also had children, and they were foreigners, but knowing that there was at least a small community, we we knew that we would uh have at least something that we needed. And we did actually surprisingly find out it was healthier and slightly larger than just a few families. Um it's not huge, maybe 30 to 40 people, but this includes locals who can come. And so that's part of our normal rhythm of life is gathering together with the body to worship and encourage each other, stir each other up and hear from his word. That's been very important for our kids, for a whole family spiritually. But that is uh kind of an anomaly because it's not often that you can actually have a local body like that that locals can attend, not just expatriates. And so that's been a large open door for building relationships with a handful of local believers and learning what it means to, you know, trying to learn how to disciple what questions they're asking and how to walk with them through life in their context.

David Dennis 9:34

What are some challenges you'd like to share with us about your situation? What are some difficulties that maybe we can pray about even?

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Yeah, one challenge would be trying to separate. Now, this this is a I'm glad that I had some training um in understanding culture and really understanding the Bible. But it's really hard for me to separate what exactly here in this country is Islamic and what is just part of a culture that is not necessarily an activity that has religious significance. I do think we need I'm very careful not to be quick to engage in activities or meals or events that have um Islamic significance. I want to be careful what does that engagement look like? But it's really hard for me to to separate what exactly in this culture is not part of Islam. And so a lot of that involves asking questions to people. Some of them don't even know whether this is predated Islam or not. But uh yeah, that's that's challenging because I I want the the church all over the world, but the church in this context to thrive and grow. And I don't think that's gonna look exactly like my culture. It's gonna look there's some pretty similar things across the world that you gather, you hear the word taught, there's singing, there's praying, there's these basic expectations that the body has, but it'll look different. And the little church we're part of looks very different than the church we are part of in Kansas. So I don't want to remove their culture, but kind of separating those two things is a challenge. And I I think related to that, understanding what it looks like to be a Christian in a culture like this has been challenging. I remember one story where I was engaging with one of our neighbors. Now, this is a neighbor who doesn't particularly like anyone, I found out, but I had been washing my car and he was really angry that water was getting in front of his house. And he was very aggressive, forthright. He was up in my face, and I was not aggressive, partly because I didn't understand 100% of what he was saying. Also, I didn't understand the context fully. Was I actually getting this car water into his well? Or was I doing something that actually people know is wrong and I just didn't know? But the way I acted was fairly meek, went out of my way to listen to him and to do what he asked. And after that encounter, another neighbor, a friend of mine, came over and he said, He said, What are you doing, Paul? You looked so weak. And it could not compute with him that I was not aggressive and in his face and pushing back just as hard. And I honestly, I know in general, attitudes that would have obviously been wrong, um, pushing him around and be being unkind and unloving directly with my word. But you know, we're not called to be doormats. And so navigating what would it be like to be a Christian? How would I imitate Christ in this particular context? It's challenging. And I think it um it it ref that's just one story, but it reflects an engagement with all kinds of people. And so not only learning to do that ours myself, but helping our children understand that as well is a challenge.

David Dennis 12:44

Yeah, that would be that. So to balance that out, maybe what are some ways you've seen God's hand at work over the years?

SPEAKER_00 12:51

I think uh one of the ways I've seen God's hand at work, it is it's really exciting to see God at work in someone's life. Now, obviously in God's economy, we He chooses to use us and we play a part in it, but God doesn't depend on us. And so it's really encouraging for me to see somebody that God has been at work and maybe even I haven't done a thing about. And there's been several relationships where it's been clear God through other Christians, people I don't even know, has started this work in someone's heart and kind of this open door, and I get to walk into it and talk to somebody and be a part of this process of either pointing them to Jesus for the to in salvation or discipling them along the way. And uh one example would be this woman we got to engage with just one week, and she had been uh set up with us to an agency to help train us in the language, but she wasn't quite as equipped as the agency wanted, and so they had to end up letting her go. But in that one week of engagement with her, there was one topic, one lesson in our book that was about wisdom, and we had the opportunity in that conversation to share the good news, and that was on the last day that we had her, and the next day we learned that she wouldn't be coming back, and so just this one week that we had with this young woman who's now had the opportunity to hear the good news, um, just not something that I could have manufactured. And so I it's encouraging to be able to be a part of part of that. I think I see God's hand in providing for us. Uh that we have many people praying for us, but just that we're I see the challenges my kids face, and I know that you know it's God's grace. The challenges that we faced as a family. I just see God providing for us so that we can be there as his witnesses. Um it doesn't mean it's not hard, but we've just seen his provision of patience, his provision of things like a house or a contract we needed or a car. Getting those things wasn't easy. Um, it's surprising how hard it was. So we see his provision for us, really, really laying a foundation. Um I I think this falls into this question as well. I think I've I've experienced just the joy of obedience that I think to borrow that from Richard Foster's book on the spiritual disciplines. I think this is where God wants us. Church has affirmed we should be. And some days when it's hard, knowing that this is really where I believe God has led our family, gives us a joy, knowing that we're walking the walk the Lord wants us to do. So there's kind of this joy in doing his will.

David Dennis 15:26

Looking forward over the next who knows how long you'll be there, but looking forward, what would be some of the things you would hope would transpire that maybe haven't fully developed yet? Are there any areas that you would really like to see happen?

SPEAKER_00 15:39

I would love to be able to communicate. You know, this is a great disciple, discipleship question, because the discipleship isn't just one-way communication. Right. And we have so many miscommunications at times in our own culture and language. And so being able to disciple someone really necessitates an understanding of their culture and an ability to hear what they're saying and what they're meaning, even though it might not be literally what they're saying. And so I would love to be able to, you know, there's times I've I've thought I knew what someone was saying in the language, and it turns out I didn't. And these were small miscommunications at times, sometimes in a Bible study, sometimes in the course of normal life, buying something. But I'd love to have a a better grasp of the language that would enable me to really hear and understand what someone is saying, the question that they're asking, what they mean, so that I can better respond and clearly respond. And that could be a direct evangelistic or gospel conversation, or it could just be answering the question they're asking. So I would I would hope that both Susan and my language would would get there. And I do hope that the the church there grows. That's our ultimate goal, is that as both people come to faith, they would, like I shared earlier as part of my story, they would the Christian Christians aren't meant to be uh isolated. They're meant to be a part of the body and local gatherings. And so I would want local gatherings, local churches of believers to to flourish, to grow. I don't know, you know, that's in God's hands. We'll do the best we can towards that end, but that's kind of something that's one of our long-term goals is how can we work towards that end?

David Dennis 17:22

That's good. I think those are very good and applicable to our situation, no matter where we are, to really be able to listen to someone and understand what they're saying. A lot of times I think if I think of myself as a disciple maker, I may wrongly think of myself as the one with all the all the knowledge and I need to dump it on the other person. But I think it's really wise what you said about wanting to really hear what the other person is saying, where they're coming from. So thank you for sharing that. And the second thing about the goal of even having a church grow, I think that's something we we maybe don't take as seriously in the navigators as we should, which it's more than just our little group. We want to see the body of Christ grow. So thank you for sharing that as well. Have there been any other things that have been surprising to you in your current situation, either positive or negative, things you didn't expect?

SPEAKER_00 18:17

I think a positive would be, I didn't expect to have such a uh it's so interesting to learn about um the Arabic language has a lot of overlap with the Hebrew and the area we live in is similar in many ways geographically and uh with agriculture and weather and kind of the some of the parts of the culture with kind of the world of the New Testament. And so I've I think I was a little surprised by how fun it's been to see those connections and learn and kind of not necessarily be able to go back to the days in the New Testament, but see a lot of things that are fun connections and help me appreciate something I maybe read in the in the Word more because it's almost like I'm seeing it in a culture a little di quite a bit different than the one in Kansas. And so that's cool. Yeah, um yeah, and I maybe I didn't expect this. This is just on me though. I had a lot of experience working with uh high school and college students in the previous country we lived in, and uh surprisingly, David, high school and college students are not the same as elementary. Uh that has uh surprised me more than you would have thought.

David Dennis 19:32

Really? Interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Yeah, just uh I've learned and I have young kids in the elementary age, but it's been a lot more parenting, and so that I suppose is something that surprised me, whether both positively and negatively. Yeah. Challenge to to be a parent both at home and at school all day, all the time.

David Dennis 19:54

Yeah, that's great. I I just think that's it's such a cool thing. You could be a great example for these young kids and uh see how you react to stress, see how you react to even suffering and negative things, and and they can really uh see that as a testimony. So that's that's really cool. So if uh if a young person or maybe anyone who is listening to this podcast would would like to explore the possibility of overseas missions of making disciples in a different culture, what what are some words of advice or recommendation you would have?

SPEAKER_00 20:26

My first and maybe most important um piece of advice would be don't do that alone. If got if God is really at work to lead you and take you somewhere else for his purpose, then God's the community, the church you're a part of is going to be crucial in understanding if that's true. And that's important on the front end to make sure that you're talking with your leaders, your elders, your church family who knows you well, who knows your skills, your gifting, your weaknesses. It could be that you're not ready yet and they're able to speak that to you. It could be that maybe you're not gifted in the ways you thought and you need to get training. And or it could be that you're ready to go and that this really is as they assess your, your, your heart, your your gifts, your skills, your the fruitfulness that you might have, that it can be, it has been very encouraging to me on the back end to know that this wasn't just a decision I made on my own, but this is a decision I believe God was leading us to do through his word, but also through his church, who affirmed that desire in calling or gifting. And so that is really important. Don't if you feel that uh desire, I would really encourage you to make that known to others in your church community and talk through that with them and involve them in the process the whole time.

David Dennis 21:43

Looking back, you know, this is a navigator ministry podcast, and so I want to relate it back a little bit to navigators, looking back at your time in college with the navigators, and you've spoken to this to some degree, but if it could expand a little bit, how did that experience prepare you for what you're doing now in terms of making disciples in this environment?

SPEAKER_00 22:04

I think uh, I mean, one of the simple ways it prepared me was at the heart of discipleship is God's word. And I think the navigators instilled a desire and understanding that how to how to read God's word and kind of learning in the very beginning how to do inductive Bible studies in a small group with others, and then also how to use not only an inductive Bible study as a means for growth and discipleship, but as a means for a longer-term evangelistic method, that evangelism isn't always a one-off conversation. In fact, I think for most of my adult life, it's while those have happened and do happen, and I'm thankful for those opportunities. Sometimes it's a longer conversation that takes time. And a good example of that is reading through a book of the Bible like John or Mark with someone. So I think the navigators also through these investigative Bible studies or reading through a gospel with someone kind of planted the seed and started me on that path, gave me some basic tools that God, through through other opportunities, has helped me hone and develop more, and there's still more growth to be had. But I think in both those ways, the navigators helped prepare me for ministry. And uh probably just the relationship. You know, relationships really important. The navigators was uh essentially a relationship. It's just about relationships. You're with other people, young people, old people, and that's at the heart of ministry.

David Dennis 23:26

I guess you went to seminary, is that right?

SPEAKER_00 23:28

I did.

David Dennis 23:29

Yeah. Do you think that's uh I I don't want you to comment on whether it's uh the right or the wrong thing to do, but do you think that it's mandatory that that a person goes to seminary or has some Bible college training?

SPEAKER_00 23:39

I think it depends on the nature of the work you're gonna be in. I have found that going to, and I don't have a I had a two and a half year degree, it's a master's in theology, and I found that helpful. In many ways, it it affirmed convictions and doctrines that I already believed. It helped, it gave me some skills and tools how to teach and how to study God's word. But I don't find it, I don't think that it would be mandatory. I would not say that it's mandatory. I I would say that it really depends on the nature of the work that someone feels God is leading them to do. And the closer that is aligned to teaching God's word or teaching others God's word, um, you probably want to make sure you have skills in doing that. And that doesn't even have to come from seminary, but you need training from somewhere. And so I do think you want to be trained. And uh, David, I think people know you're a I think you're a doctor or surgeon, right?

David Dennis 24:29

Right, doctor.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

The old, the old um kind of statement that you don't want somebody who's got no doctoral training operating on you or giving you medical advice. You typically want someone who's got skills in that area. So I would say you you want to get skills and training in the specific area you're you're going to be engaged in. I I've been benefited by many podcasts. I listen a wide variety, but especially I just appreciate having voices. I think one of the tools God uses to grow us and sanctify us is other people and speaking into our lives. And so I just thankful for a chance to talk, talk with you and pray that this would be just a small piece in helping others.

David Dennis 25:12

God is indeed providing for Paul and Susan and their family. I so appreciate his heart and his comments about the importance of hospitality, the importance of relationships, and the way God provides and is involved in the lives of people. Let's pray for them as they continue their work in this often difficult and challenging situation. Join us next time as together we learn more about making disciples naturally.