062 - Jeff the Running EP & Chronic Pain

062 - Jeff the Running EP & Chronic Pain

Jeff the Running EP joins us to dive into his journey with chronic pain, with some practical things you can implement starting today.

Transcript

spk_1:   0:01
This's the I'm a view podcast getting you private practise ready. We give you fresh ideas on mindset, communication and clinical skills so you can have a full field career. What a time to be alive. Welcome to the move, you podcast get a very special yesterday. It is Jeff the running epi. Great to have you on, Jeff. How you going, mate?

spk_0:   0:31
I'm really good, man. Thank you so much for inviting me to be on the show. Incredibly privileged. Also

spk_1:   0:39
really excited to have you on. And one of the reasons that I'm super excited to have you on his Oh, actually, I've seen a lot of your journey. I get to work with Theo, owner of the business. Andrew. Really, really great epi. And through that, I've got to see a lot of your Jesus. I think we first met at the review course, which was over a year ago. Now

spk_0:   1:00
I believe we did early. Pretty much promise this time last year. And

spk_1:   1:06
it would be E s. So it was a life changing event. You have to see. Oh, this

spk_0:   1:15
only with a gun to my head right by me.

spk_1:   1:19
You got this? Now this just to get started. I'd like tio learn a little bit more about you. So let's start with a quick Q and A so seconds per ANSA quickfire. So what book you reading right now?

spk_0:   1:34
Our happiness trapped by Dr Ross Harris.

spk_1:   1:37
Beautiful. What's your main? Take

spk_0:   1:39
one thie power off our thoughts, the power of our communication and how we can apply it to better understanding people and get them to living a purposeful in community life. That's

spk_1:   1:52
good. And put that on my reading list, mate. Next one who inspires you?

spk_0:   1:59
Who inspires me? There's a lot of people inspire me 1st 1 who comes to mind is could be bright and philosophies off. Bruce Lee. Love that. Go.

spk_1:   2:10
Yes, yes. Good choices. What did you want to be growing up?

spk_0:   2:16
What did I want to be going on? Well, actually want to be a doctor grown up, but that didn't turn out that things turned out the way I want it,

spk_1:   2:24
you know? Different, different and better. Very different. Very. What's the motto that you live by?

spk_0:   2:36
Start before you're ready. Never ready.

spk_1:   2:40
That reminds me a lot of Richard Branson. I love you. Very good. All right. Let's let's jump into a little bit of content there, mate. So I've seen a lot of your journey, but our listeners want have would have know much about you unless they do follow you, Jeff. The running epi on. So tell us a little bit about your your origin. Storey, where we come from. Where are you now?

spk_0:   3:05
So So I guess in terms of my educational history, I started a batch of medical science intention. I want to become a doctor. I really want to help people. And then near the end of the course, I'll start to a maid and I'm like, Oh, I don't know what to do. Oh, I don't want to be a doctor. And then we're looking through his stuff That was really important to you, which was exercise and helping people. Human physiology. But when I came across excess physiology did the course that we loved it. It's, um, interning in strength conditions. Private practise a degree and placements throughout the throughout my journey and and my first job was at rebound health. You mentioned that's run by my boss, Andrew dob me in there for three years, and I'm going into my fourth year and private practise with rebound health in terms ofthe what I've seen of what have become come to really enjoy and specialised pretty much a a range of things that have seen my same party metabolic, muscular injuries and through my journey or the courses I've been to, the people have met. I've really started to really have a passion for helping people living with persistent chronic pain. And that's pretty much bean. It's really opened my eyes not only in the clinical side of things, for stuff that's really applicable to my life, in my relationship, outside of work, in terms ofthe there's a lot of things, but I think we're going to get into that later. But yeah, I'm loving it, loving it. You mentioned up on a social media page in the running u P on instagram. I met you last year that I'm review course on DH. Started that and get Teo Connecticut connecting with other health crows, picking their brains, going to course with them, and it's been getting better and better and learning each and every day. And that's where I am right now.

spk_1:   5:13
And just for just for context, Why the running epi?

spk_0:   5:18
The running? Okay, sir. Well, number one running has always been one of my things That it's been something that gives me fulfilment gives me enjoyment and e if you know. But I love doing marathons, and I think that's a big testament. Teo, a big profit is out. We'll have a live life, and pretty much I've been doing that. And it's been just part of my part of what I do. And so if I'm gonna have ah title so I have something that's going to be catchy or people that know me buys knowing you buy something that I really know things that I really enjoy and that is running. And of course I'm not just any P I'm not, You know, I am the running people have e

spk_1:   6:09
love that I love that it really just comes down to you. You know, you live that exercise life, and I think that that comes across in everything you do and your clients are the people you work with to see that you know, you really live it, I think is massive. Just just in itself. Absolutely. Now the next thing is you know you want to go into product pain, you sort of have a lot of things. But you've really found this passionate helping people with persistent pain. It's definitely something that is not done particularly well. Like we know it's getting worse and worse, especially the Western society. What was the catalyst? So what was that moment when you decided this is where I want my career to go? This is what I

spk_0:   6:52
want. Yeah, Interesting s O in my first year off private practise. So I was seeing thinking a number of our clients and different populations. And when I came across to people living with crime pain from what I learned at university, it seemed very heated. Mitch, I didn't know those stuff like horse. Really? Those stuff like to skin think people stronger and I didn't. I was fairly confident with it, but the outcomes were just so up and down and I couldn't really explain it. And also there will be times where I would see patients and I would be I would go through their history or they'll tell me their storey and I would be absolutely I'll be scared. I'll be like, I don't know if I can help you, I think I need to refer on. So I didn't have the confidence. And the big catalyst was I went to a course by the biomechanics and they did a course on Low the lower back inside J. And he was how to have a bio cycle us by a psycho social approach to it. And it challenge a lot of my beliefs on stuff like pasta stuff like communication. Andi even brought in my perspective on how we think and how we rationalise it, our critical thinking skills. And I realised I was stuck in, like, this kind of cycle of, like, you know, actually not open to other type of treatments. And I'm also limiting myself and other things that may be potentially effective. And I gain clarity in terms of what was what the evidence wass and what was effective. The next step was clearly communicating it, and I've got that was like, the catalyst for May in terms of something I need to think Maura about. Yeah, then from that is really came down to my own self self driven on my choice to pursue the area of chronic pain,

spk_1:   8:59
I love that, and I can definitely relate to someone coming in including pain and almost a little bit overwhelmed that I wasn't sure if I was the right person. I wasn't sure if I could help that person like generally there they came in. I wasn't sure if there was a light at the end of the tunnel. You know some of the symptoms they presented with but the other things going on in their life could be quite horrific and by a psycho social model ongoing if those things aren't dealt with first and that something was sometimes way outside of my scope. But I felt I had to referring to a psychologist or something, absolutely. That was daunting for me, and I end up straight away and say I didn't deal a lot with product claim because that wasn't something that I felt I was particularly good at. I was much more happy. Teo, refer onto someone like yourself who was in a better position to help sawn in that one.

spk_0:   9:55
It's interesting you say that mainly because way when we leave University of Leeds University. But of course we take up. I'm pretty confident where there's a lot of undergraduate. Ah, lot of graduates mainly look for techniques, maybe look for, like, what's the next exercise? It's very what to do. Yeah, and not so much how to do it. It's very and you mentioned stuff for like, referring to a psychologist, like for me when I saw people, I realise that it's not just excise prescription of, like sets and wraps and exercises. There's emotion, there's you're dealing with human beings and how can you confidently guide them through that whole process? And when I first got that, I was like, Oh my God, I'm not a psychologist. Scope of practise. Should I be here? Should I be talking about this stuff? But it's we're seeing people. We're going to deal with it, and we've got to have the confidence to do it effectively.

spk_1:   11:05
I agree now. Have you had a mentor or Hassan you've really looked up to worked with alert from in that area? What is that? How's that affected you?

spk_0:   11:21
Mentors Mantles? I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that I have a mentor, especially in the chronic pain area. It was more so discover who's who are the people who are contributing to field of chronic pain. And how did they get to that point? And how do they get to there the ideas of the beliefs that they uphold at that point in time? So says people like, say, for example, say Adam Eakins or Ben Cormac or girls like Laura Mosley. You are like an associate. Press it David David Butler, because who I wrote the book explain payer, and we're the best books and helping people understand it. I was okay. I want to get to know a little bit about their work a little bit about their mythology methodology. And so I didn't necessarily have a mentor in chronic pain. So it was more so just getting to get to know their practise. And they're taking their techniques and their application. Of course, I'm very fortunate to have, say, my boss at Rebound Health, and he's just really supportive and okay, you want to go? To course, this's interesting technique or you want to do this and that and very supportive. So I was really, really happy for that.

spk_1:   12:47
A love that, and even just reflecting on things like you wrote books by people who might not have a direct mentor ship with a super like they mentor you in some way and you said You're going to do Vince course That's saying that he'll talkto guess all of you about is that you might not always directly talk to someone to learn from them. You can learn what they have done. Their books work. Therefore they are. And they could ascend until you Teo become more like them. And I actually took it very much for granted when I went through university here in South Australia because the noise grew thes, obviously from Adelaide and other Laura mostly ran a pain sites semester with Enough is your degree and I just to shoot with everyone else did that as well. More and more. I talkto, I guess, busy boys that have trained on the Younis or different help professionals. The more I realised that union hasn't really, really good programme. There were very fortunate.

spk_0:   13:47
Yeah, actually froth When when I heard that you you're studying there and you're telling you about the courses you were taking? I was like, Well, you're

spk_1:   13:57
a step ahead. Very, very fortunate that luck of the draw way going up cars yet So you win some, you lose some. We'll never know now. But next they like to talk about it is get a bit more nitty gritty and practical. What is your approach, Teo. Chronic pain. Let's say that you know the overarching Let's say someone comes in. You've identified. They've got persistent pain, you know? How do you go about that? Is it changing someone's beliefs? Is it building report? How do you structure that? Everyone is listening.

spk_0:   14:34
You gotta listen to him. You got to understand their storey first and foremost. The very first thing I do is a very first very first question I asked them is tell me your storey, What? What do you think is going on? What's your understanding? And then you just give them a platform to tell it. And we've acted from from your standpoint, actively listening, tuning into the details how they're positioning themselves, how they're expressing themselves, what's really meaningful to them. Because ultimately, for us, my approach is okay. Let me roll with resistance and I'm going to be a passenger and let's go for a ride pretty much and because from their storey, the words their experiences that's going to drive the treatment, and it's very common for a lot of people, especially just health practitioners. There is a bit of ego. There is a bit of just proving that you are capable of treating someone way. No, we know what's effective in terms ofthe helping people with prison pain, all right, but they don't know it right, and they have a certain in language that they they vie. Whether they understand, we can't talk their language or put our message across without first understanding them. So number one, you just happen. Big number one is give them, give them the chance to speak and then use their experience to drive the treatment. Just a minute, in a very broad sense. If, say, if it's going to go get little nitty gritty are, then why what's what's the main goal? What if their pain was better managed or suddenly gone away? What would they get back to? What would they better? What wouldn't with activities that they wanted to improve upon? Because ultimately it's the activities, the meaningful activities. That's the motivator. That's the goal, not just increased my strength of five kilos a tank Yah Lear's or be a bill, but get my court more stable or by postural bit straight or whatever. Sure, there might be some people, but ultimately the main driver is getting back to living.

spk_1:   17:07
It's interesting, isn't it? And I think just to touch on what you first said there, I really like that. Just listen like our job is Teo be a passenger because typically in persistent pain, there's been a passenger their whole life. They feel like they're not in the driver's seat and have seen professionals and specialists on voodoo doctors who have been telling them and telling them telling them. But no one's really listen, and I read a study and I want to find this for you. You already read it yourself. But it said the average patient storey last to just over two minutes, I think is two minutes and 14 seconds. The average patient storey and the average time tio interruption and this was done with medical professionals was just six seconds. So they're trying to get their storey out and we're giving them six seconds before we interrupt them. Don't interrupt you, it says. They're not listening, baby. It's just a bloody, rude way. Have to take a step back and I think become better listeners. And I look back. It's a lot of the training that I've done through universe through university to start with. And I think by the end of university you do start to cut people off sometimes because they start Teo heard this storey before you try and cut in. But then you start to notice that this isn't working because people don't like you and you're on a time schedule. What not would be You're not getting that person's storey. And for May I then I went and looked at different communication courses on one of the first things they did was gonna work on listening and I couldn't believe it. We're gonna work on a list for how hard is listening, right?

spk_0:   18:53
You're doing it all your life, right?

spk_1:   18:56
Not very well. It seems that it's something that I think it should be taught to be a listener. Like, how can we actually show some that were listening little, you know, saying yes, nodding, clarifying back to them. If they say something to you, you might be 100% sure you've got it. But if you go pager. Just just to clarify, you've said this this and this, which has made you feel this way. There's nobody. You can say that without having listened really well. So they know you've listened. But it also gives them the opportunity to go on leave. Actually misinterpreted that. Andi. I think that's huge, like just being a horrifying things back. And if you take one thing out of one improvement for improving, you're listening. I think it should be clarified back to someone what they've said to you, in their words, that's a massive was my fingers. Loon.

spk_0:   19:52
Yeah, I think Teo go a step further. Think about people who are living with persistent pain have been, Let's say, it's been a year. They've been getting all this information. They've been talked to all these people. They've been doing all these treatments. Things aren't working, and life is incredibly dynamic, uncertain, and it's confusing. And now in their head, it's just all this uncertainty. All this confusion, right, and then now, by purely getting them to getting them to speak, getting them to tell their storey, and then we because if they put it out there, it's going to be messy and then for us. How can we help connect the dots and get them to understand that confusion and how they're stuck in this cycle of things are just getting things like even better? Quitters? We don't know where to go, what to do or just get a better understanding of what the hell is happening. And for our standpoint, it is uncertainty, right? There's a lot of things that we don't know. So how can we work together to piece it together? This is not just the practitioner. We've gotto work together. It's a collaboration to partnership, not authority and having ego and telling people interrupting because ultimately it's them. And they have Teo ultimate, their understanding and their improving. That's the first and foremost patient centred.

spk_1:   21:32
I love it. Everything just comes back to the patient. At the end of the day, it's How can we help this person achieve whatever goal it is that they set themselves Lett's pieces together? I think. Have you got a client? Storey see no names here but you have a storey of someone you've worked with And maybe how they came into You start with you know what you're able tto achieve and sort of what got you there.

spk_0:   22:00
I always use I use this storey because this was the biggest thing that helped me in my primitive my communication understand off pain. And it's one that doesn't look good on me and I'm proud of I'm fine of sharing it mainly because So this is what happened. So one lady came in for initial assessment. She had history off chronic, persistent, low back pain for 67 months and she was really Hartford work on DH. She was rude. We're afraid to spend down picks up from floor. She saw a doctor. She saw a doctor and told her, You need Teo strengthen this stabilise. This don't do all X y zed activities because it's dangerous and it's going to be it's going to cause more damage. And then So this was the information that I was gathering. From the initial assessment, I I could gather that this doctor was really important to her and just moving was really scary for her. And so a TTE that point, I was like, sweet, okay, she had the scared and Okay, let's have a look again. Or and then I went straight into a right scans on indicative ofthe people can have disc bulges and that their pain free. So it's a poor correlation to a poor correlation to paying. All right. And so I tried. Teo tried to challenge her on that on the spot. And then OK, then I went straight to the movement. So she was avoiding movement. Okay, but we're sitting down to a bit of flexion already, so doesn't seem to be aggravating anything at the moment. All right, let's try and touch this. It's put a put a cup trophy. I'm okay. Take a nice deep breath in and try and reach for the cup and share it with helping. She was had has a has a field. I'll sit with you, too, like, yeah, it's all right. But in her head, she had this belief that if you did it enough, it's going to cause more damage. But in my head, I was like I just challenged her belief that now she now she believes flexion is safe and insert. Then through the assessment, I was okay. This is the plan we're going to go through. We're going to gradually exposure to flexion and we're going toe address posture. So she said that posture was something she need to work on a peanut. I said, Yet posture is not an issue. Don't worry about it. Like just relaxed, however a world different. It's fine, right? So I've made a plan going toe do great. Its movement has that sit with you and then this was OK. The concert goes for about on our initial assessment. Right? This was about 50 minutes in 50 minutes in, I was goingto lay out my plan. I probably should have been a bit earlier, right? So I was like, Okay, that's the plan. And she massive curb all she said, You know what? I disagree. Like I don't I don't I don't viable. I don't understand where you're coming from. And then in my head from that point, it was all green lights. I was like, She understands it with challenge or beliefs around pain, and it's going to be also and then that last 10 minutes freaked out. I'm like, Oh my God, I did not hear a I didn't understand. I didn't make her expect. Get a better understand her expectations where she wanted to go And then, sir, the crazy thing is S o Shi she left. She paid for the assessment. And then she left the review and it said it was a zero out of 10 review and was like, I can't believe this guy would make me. I say it's safe to move. When my doctors told me to tell them talking to work on this and this, I can't believe he would do that. And in my hand on, I was just like Well, if only did. Did I actually ask her what her understanding was? Did I under Oscar, where she wanted to go and did? Did I go into quickly? And I think I did, in terms of challenging her and really understanding the nuances, the communication, whether looking at picking, picking apart the word she was using and also the body language, the X the external cues that she was given was that was actively looking for those. And I always use that as a massive learning experience. For me, mainly with takeaway was was actually listening to Ah, did I put my ego aside and make her a valued partner in this in this treatment process in that I was okay. Let's learn from it. Let's review

spk_1:   26:53
for Thank you for sharing that Storey is I know it's never easy. Tio share a storey like that on a podcaster to many people, but it's also incredibly useful for everyone from listening. I think I'd really like to know how, like how things changed for you. So listening is chief food talking to a lot of younger therapists off many, many disciplines. Things that more stepped off is feeling too much time sitting down, talking in an initial assessment and not enough time doing treatment as they would as they would say, What do you

spk_0:   27:35
ultimate if I guess it really comes down to how we see movement and exercise in this whole treating people living with chronic pain? Is it just getting people stronger and more stable, changing position or or getting muscles more activated? Is that how we see movement? So if how I see movement is if you look at my mining epi, I go through this slogan is reframe, Apply excel. Yeah, how can we use exercise or movement to reframe how they see how they see themselves, how they understand the principles of pain. So we and then serve once we Once we do that, they've got to actually apply it before. If we're going to go into just Pogo's Jeff like, are we just going to be talking the whole time? Is just going to be like a therapy session. Well, if you go Teo, you're goingto use movements right away. What's the purpose ofthe it? What's the meaning behind it? And we only get the meaning through having an extensive dialogue, communication of the person, the words they use, the meaning behind it, the activities of goals. Why is that important to their right? And so if we're going to use movement to purely challenge their beliefs? Okay, what are those beliefs? And then, if I was going to initial assessment, all right, let's break it up. And if they think, for example, flexion is bad, Okay, we have to understand why that why that's bad through an extensive communication process or talking. And then let's head to the gym. And let's do some movement to address that how they understand it, because ultimately, if they're going to go through an experience, there needs to be some reflection off because we have reflection comes learning and not to reflect. So we're going to talk about it or give them away. I'll give them tools for them to think about it after the session. That's why some guys at the end of a session go All right. So after this, it from from our 30 minutes. What did you learn? Well, what were the key takeaways from you? Because it could be a bit messy for them. Or it could be slap bang on the sport. Alright, Sze, give them some information you're on, you're on the right track and I completely agree. So it is a balance of both and I can't. I can't say that there is, like a 50 50 proportion of how you should spend your consultation with everyone wants Teo. There's going to be gods. You really just want to talk, and they need to get reassurance and clarity. Some guys, they want to get going and they already understand the principles and they want to. Let's let's move right away. It really comes down to you understanding the person. That's why that was my main for every 100 foot view of treating people

spk_1:   30:42
love it, love it. And I think the main thing there, like you said, it's individualist. Different people need different things, and I feel practitioners also. They shouldn't be scared that maybe you'll get the occasional person come in and you'll just talk for the entire first session. You'll just really understand their storey. It's also really, really likely that you're the first person to sit down and actually listen to them. And it's not discounting what that means for the person in front of you Now. Next year, like task, is for the people in the chronic pain field that you look up to you like. These guys are killing it, that doing extremely well. What are some of the things that they're doing daily weekly monthly in order to to be getting themselves to that that standard?

spk_0:   31:32
Well, well, I can't speak. I can't speak for them, but from all the just the leaders in any type of fields, whether it's business, whether in sport or people who are in the quantum pain area, what I do know, if you want to be a master, it won't be an expert on things. You'll be doing this stuff that people aren't willing to do? Yeah, and on that, that means okay. Scheduling time to really learn getting time, Tio, meet other people who are, I would say better than you and p their way. And also, if you were to become an expert, all the experts, whether it's Kobe Bryant or whether it's I wouldn't say, I'm sure you wouldn't call yourself a call yourself an expert were all like students here way all stopped from. We'll start from the same spot, and that's like no bottom, right, and it's got to start somewhere. And in order to get to the top, it's not. We're not. We're not beef. We're not special. You sure you'll be talented, but the effort you put into your training or you're learning That's the main X factor that sze what people going to do. So from my standpoint, all right, let's let's meet up with a group of people who are who challenged my my belief or challenge my learning all right? And what are the courses or that Z people who are very much of the leader of the industry? So for May, I'm going to San Diego. I'm going to send you go pain summit next month because I know for sure they're going to be guys like Ben call Mac like Jared Hole like like laws and brawny Thompson, people who are really pushing into me forward. And I know for sure if I'm if I'm putting in the work and I'm really delving into the field, there is something that I can contribute. And I'm sure that for anyone, anyone putting their best self and putting the effort in people like spending type of those people because they're passionate and they're coming from a good place, everyone's come from a good place.

spk_1:   33:43
I do love that. I thinkit's massive. I think of you Who are the people you hang around with or spend time with? You become very much like them. That's beautiful, mate. Now what out today we go full circle. Now. If you were to give people 11 golden nugget from what we talked about, one thing that they could take away and they can implement starting today, starting tomorrow, what will it be for their practise?

spk_0:   34:17
So if if we're talking from a condition standpoint on early practitioner, I would say if we're going to go into just a. Understand what your passion is in general, what are your interests, and then and just be willing to be courageous enough to Teo. Delve into any type, of course, connecting with anyone on when you can be prepared to be open minded, have your challenges your believes challenged and put put your best self in. Put 100 saying because you won't know if it's your passion until and if, if you don't put that homestand and few. If you were just being lazy about it, all right, you're gonna have this. Regrets is like a wish you did that, but you got to put your best if you go. If I'm Golden Nugget for crying pain, it's dynamic. There's always there's always something changing. So you've got to be be willing to get your beliefs challenge in that aspect and just continuously be voracious in understanding the principles and the evidence. And, of course, he had to have the make sure you're improving your communication skills because sure, you might know a ll the great stuff. But if you can't communicate it in the best way you can for the person who can understand a person who's listening and it sze going to be. It's going to be ineffective anyway, so communication is key. I think for Golden gopher just practise in general, I think we've got to put our egos aside and better understand if in terms of learning and getting ourselves better, understanding how we think our critical thinking and be willing to have a beliefs challenging to be open minded. Yeah is. Ultimately everyone's coming from a good spot. Every once, everyone generally wants to help and we have a certain process. We think that we think the way we think or the way we got to a certain point, let Sze put ourselves in their shoes because there's always something to take away from someone. Storey Whether it's a quiet or a colleague,

spk_1:   36:39
I think that's ah really good wayto to sum it up and may personally the thing that I'm going to take away and implement with my own team. It's just going to be that first question when someone comes in with chronic pain is tell me your storey and then just really listening like that's what I'm going to go about. It takes my team and Dio, I feel like we can improve it because you can always improve. And I feel like that for May. That's massive. That's absolutely especially especially for the younger therapists that you haven't had, that it exposure that experience in that area. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today, Jeff the Running Eppie. If people want to follow you on socials, where should they go?

spk_0:   37:25
You mentioned I'm just running pee on instagram So pretty easy to find their instagram Jeff running Pierre. You can also find me on eighth took same title. Also linked in Geoffrey Philip or search after running a P. Is that yes. So if you want to connect always happy Teo, get to know you guys and yeah, let's let's run together.

spk_1:   37:53
Perfect. I'll put those links in the show notes. So if you are watching this in for those links and connect with Jeff, asked him any questions about chronic pain. He is fast becoming a well known figure in this area. So thank you again for coming on night. I really appreciate it. What? It's going to be alive. You've listened to the review podcast I look forward to next time. Now this's the timer view podcast. Getting you private practise ready. We give you fresh ideas on mindset, communication and clinical skills so you can have a full field career.