064 - Holding multiple perspectives

064 - Holding multiple perspectives

Mic and Roy talk about holding 2 perspectives at the same time.

Transcript

spk_0:   0:01
This's the I'm a view podcast getting you private practise ready. We give you fresh ideas on mindset, communication and clinical skills so you can have a full field career rolling. Welcome back way Are you nada? And when I say we're all with Marie Chan Physio, who also works in a way of retreat last day we're about to head back on Your Nana is a retreat space in Wiseman's Ferry. It's been a good week going right. Okay, thanks. What's your experience of retreat? Certify

spk_1:   0:43
its problem? The Yeah, one of best through four days I've had and just really blessed to be working with wasn't him just drawing together, helping each other and support each other? Top takeaways. Top takeaway. So many, so many putting me on the spot. Yeah, that's what we do. Takeaways. Probably the important off setting goals, but not just that. Like setting goals, having each other accountable, having a right mindset when we're doing those collars and naturally formed

spk_0:   1:27
through E. I think the thing we're changing this week with gold setting or the Syria's having quarterly team days because it feels like if you have one retreat on another treat, a year later. It's a big, big get. Was that so? We're looking forward to that. Some girl seemed like the life flights we did if he hadn't done lifelines. You try and draw a line which goes up and down. So you have, like two hires to close and some funny storeys that people might not know. You try and do that in 10 minutes on well, saying that you do the lifeline and you can see why people are way got 12 13 of us up there. That was good. Makes a massive game e like him playing games way. Talk about perspective because Roy reason I'm interview and obviously he works for me. And obviously he gets in a lot of online debates on review, which are usually about Andi even re. When he started working with, I said, I thought from what I had seen off view, it would be very different. Can you explain what you mean by that?

spk_1:   2:40
I think for me I can't speak for a lot of people out there in the sense that may it doesn't always have a consistent message, and I think that's what throws a lot of people off like I know Mick as a person, so I don't think he's being thank you. I think that's what I really respect about making that he does embrace one side and the same time. It also looked from others and as well. And I think that's you can put the wrong way. Thanks.

spk_0:   3:27
Appreciate this's not compliment me. This podcast we were literally talking about because you said to me like you think that way about that, a kind of I'll argue for one point and then the next day on arguing for a different point. And that and when you said that sounds inconsistent, which could be a problem for people, right? And then and then we went into, like, perspectives and how we get different perspectives. So, yeah, I brought up D case stick exercise. Do you wanna explain that a sticking So some of that

spk_1:   4:07
we did in the last retreat on DH. We all have a stick and we put the stick in the ground and also standing on other left, right from behind the stick on that I guess that represents which starts off whatever. Whoever spectrum that Iran,

spk_0:   4:27
the stick is like the topic of the debate

spk_1:   4:31
and you can cross the stick and go to the other side. But I think what the most powerful thing about the analogy is that if you take away yourself away, Sir Stan Perpendicular to the stick, you can see the two sides off the argument. I think being having the ability to take yourself out off that one side and just see folks, that's as a whole as you know, the interaction between both. That's where you could be really powerful. And I guess everything. It's not just media, just life in

spk_0:   5:09
general, right? But it can be at the same time, frustrating if the other person doesn't have that perspective. I liked when so D K, who's I'm business partner with me, picked up one end of the stick and the other person pick up the other end. And he said, When you hold a strong perspective or an argument or an opinion, it's like thrusting that stick forward. And if we're is holding the other end, he's going to react because he's also holding it so their reaction might be defensive. Or you might feel like you're being pushed, and that's that's what a debate feels like I'm pushing the stick into you and you have to react defensively or aggressively. You push back on, D. K says. We'll just put the stick down. Both of you walk to the other and look at the argument. You can see the full spectrum. That's that side. That's that side. And you're both actually standing together looking down at the opinion, the positive and the negative. And that's something that really resonated with me. But at the same time for you and not just online debate. We're talking about social media. We're talking about how we do physio. We're talking about how you greet someone at work. It's like we would have a conversation about. I would ask him a lot of questions, almost like I was arguing for one point, and then the next day I'd be like, Okay, why don't you do this on that? That's really frustrating having what's in your mind. I know we talked a lot about social media, right?

spk_1:   6:37
Yes, I think this's something that doesn't in every aspect, and I guess it when he does that, it really allows people to form with their own ideas, and I guess That's one thing. I really appreciate it. It's frustrating at the time. But

spk_0:   7:02
one day he just looked at you, just sent this to me. And then the other day you, like, know you to be a

spk_1:   7:06
complete opposite, but like he would put prompt in

spk_0:   7:09
truth, a conversation. You should go this

spk_1:   7:12
way. Although one of the big takeaways for me this weekend at the Retreat is that looking at people's personality, providing e think makers mix a one. What's that way? Yeah, and he's like, That's a very typical trait on off one on when used in a healthy way E.

spk_0:   7:46
I think the most obvious thing is like when we're talking about perspective. I always think about manual therapy, exercise, and this is something I'm Natalie with you right now. Is should we even have perspective and thought and discussion in a field that is trying to be evidence based? And I think that's the thing that feels conflicting. Should we even be ableto one side or the other? Sometimes it is likely that there is evidence, and then that's it. Some reason on two perspectives, just like that's the evidence, and so one day I'll defend manual therapy in the next hour crossed a study that says it has the lowest power. Like what? Would you believe that? What you thought shoot. Is there room for that? That perspective

spk_1:   8:40
100%. I think one thing that stuck with me from early on a more days is that Mick was about being a bouncer. So being from pro manual therapy on DH two pro exercise, you know you need to look at things. Look at evidence from both ends of the spectrum. You need to listen to people, the leaders from both, and so that spectrum as well. I think once you can take both sides of it and understand it well, I understand why people argue for that. Then you can have a group sort sof understanding yourself and with most things you end up in the middle anyway, I think without understanding that you know, truly understanding for other people's point of view. Yes, I read that that doesn't fit. I think that's a bit pointless

spk_0:   9:42
strip because I like you often it's easy to fall into the trap of saying it's evidence based. Therefore I can read a paper and give me the answer. Therefore, there should be no room to stick plain like. What do you mean? I'm not looking at that side of a stick of that side of it. Stick. This is a paper which is science, which tells me this opinion. Sometimes I feel like that's how it is online. But mental therapy is a classic example. There'll be a group of people that are you. It hasn't affected its small will be a group of people saying, Yeah, papers that say that really poor. So I'm on this side,

spk_1:   10:15
I think as a young, professional view you knew about all year student, would you rather someone tell you this is the way to go? This is what you need to listen to. This is what you need to believe in rather than people presenting the options and hate What makes sense to you?

spk_0:   10:31
Yeah, I'm super mindful of that course in the early days, Like the very 1st 1 I did Sameh no therapy did it. Guy got up moved a tonne better and e what do you think actually just happened So there's no way I was touching yourself physically impossible on DH. Then we got the narrative, right? But I still think, always look back at those first course because that harmful or is that helpful? Like what if those 20 people now go out and just continue to use that technique in the wrong way, even with wrong narrative? Wait, you probably haven't won since super different, like we've taken an ad out for a reason. I don't I don't know if that did. You walk away from that experience going, Okay, that's an option I could use, but I choose not to. Or it's just something in my mind.

spk_1:   11:28
Yeah, 20. I think that's That's the thing that I learned from the course, but it wasn't my biggest takeaway on it was called to have one of those things to try, and I think the things that we did. But of course I was a little bit different, wass like a rock rock later on the ankle, the ankle and that's something that you don't really get to know. You know, something you're probably hands on, so it's just cool to muck around. Do I do that now? There's like maybe one in like once. Two months is something. But for the patient that for the patient. You know, you really want that temporary change on DH? Weather changes help, but I think it's really powerful to show patients you can have a more symptom modification.

spk_0:   12:26
I think what I was mindful of in the courses, like, obviously, we spoke a bunch about exercise and how the Holts back 80 to 90% of the treatment plan that we put up. There was all exercise, exercise, immigration, education. But I was mindful to show the full array of things like, Well, this is an inch taller that exists there. Here's some tape exists where they waited Subregion Tate. We did manual therapy exercises, about communication, about narrative. My sort with early course was to present everything that exists and leave you with your career like your career is now. Go out and make your own decisions

spk_1:   13:06
on Dog wasn't like you need to listen to me because he also said, like, this is a list of people that you want. You also need to listen to Well, e, I think I think it's tough being a young professional nowadays, and I see so many of it s so much for coming out, you know, just have, like, so confused because they talk way in a union prison with. There's a really strong views on online. Yeah, and it's hard to It's hard to follow your thoughts.

spk_0:   13:43
E. I was thinking about that. I was thinking about new grads and that that's often a justification that I might have well, Lena, with things like mental therapy, for example, like the new Grads and they've learnt it so we can't just trash it. So again, using that perspective argument, awesome stepped away from that argument gone. Would it be more helpful to actually just trash it in your first day of physio and say, You're not going to do that? The evidence isn't there. Where the evidence is not strong in support off. There's low value evidence for it. Would that be healthy, or would it be healthier to do the nudging effect of like? Here are the options. We believe it's low value, but we still choose to use it for reason or for patient X, Y and Z. I really often think about those two thoughts like, would it be more helpful to just do that drastic fast band? A quick change don't use it. And then therefore, that has a struggle. A trickle down effect orjust notch practitioners. What do you think?

spk_1:   14:44
I think that's something that you guys listening right now. Let let me I have My answer will be different for everyone. Yeah, And you know, if you guys are in the community, you doesn't under community. And you got a fresh grad. What do you want? Other contact. Okay, because for something that might be just, mate, just tell me what you do and like what you think is right. I want to be oh, ballistic understanding the research man of every exercise, the whole thing or the fun things about this year.

spk_0:   15:27
I know where I fall on that side. I'm probably biassed towards energy like you've just come out five years. You've won something of their people. It's not. Throw it out. But here's a lthough. Here's the research. You is what can help. Here's how you could reduce it. Here you can present it now, going start your career and figure out what you want to do. But I also see the other perspective, which is like way. Just get rid of it. It will stop the extreme examples off those practitioners who are taking advantage of people.

spk_1:   16:01
Yeah, I think that's the Yeah, I think that's what you're thinking about that I think it Z it's really good. I think that's so much what grabs people was. Attention online is this's what you need to do well at the top three things you need to do to be better physio. And we're the ones that gets to click and like being stuck in like being having a view in the middle of bouncing. That sometimes doesn't get the same effect on social media, which is just tough. You're getting really loud voices on social media on. You don't really save people who are in the middle.

spk_0:   16:44
Bester. That's true. I try to be more careful with. I think if you looked at the full history of my post, you would see the bias that you would see are economically towards keeping manual. You probably see that, but I do try present like e 100% think I could treat you that because I know what a whole bunch of patients towards like haven't practised for years. But towards the end of when it was treated I would say more than 50% of patients that I would treat without therapy, and that's because what ended up happening is I started seeing a lot of chronic back and that that was just a random trickle down effect off. I was interested in it, learnt about it, had a patient with it, applied the latest evidence, no millions there. But they got better, went back and told the doctor, Doctor started very more more and then I just started crying back. So that's where it's hard for me because, like, I think if you look back at all the post, you would see that I'm like, I don't think I'm ready to throw it out, especially in a course or with young grads. My like I would lean towards nudging them. Here's all the info you need to make a decision. But at the same time, I'm fully confident and comfortable that I could treat someone without a visa. So e

spk_1:   18:03
just e think what I get is that for fun? You got too much obesity in a similar view as Mick, and I think that love who meddle, it's easy for them to disengage from the conversation like like I don't really feel like I'm saying the right things because you know I'm not pro one or the other. You're like the classic fences, right? That What do you want growing as a practitioner involves you from being in those conversations? Don't let that be a reason for you to take yourself out. I'm saying that because putting the last two or three months I've had I've been couple, well, tipple present looks really the comments and read every single thing. And I feel so I just don't feel comfortable commenting in this on DH. Think that's healthy? We don't really move forward.

spk_0:   19:15
That's 100% right, and there's no doubt that there's at least 75 7 new grads on that page, and I'm not comfortable commenting. That's because there's one or two really strong voices right, and like, there's no way, as in, you got to have the balls to like one. Say what you're doing, the consul, for fear of being judged and to disagree with someone who's like five years old. I don't think anyone's had that kind of courage or straight as a new grab on. Then I kind of think about what's the purpose of the group, like we just shut down because the whole purpose of the group was to help new grades s Oh, that's something. I'm also mindful of letting certain people in the group because you know who our voices and it's the loud voices, a super valuable because their experience and every evidence. But then what happens? I think that discourages then you guys even even more to talk. That's a really interesting doc. What do you do with that? If it's a group to help new grads have opinions and discussion when a safe environment? Versace laying some really experienced clinicians into our voices. That's tricky. I think of our Nicholas Schuster. He's got the private Practise Business Owners Group and then the New Grads group kind of really see why he's done that. And then who was speaking about dictatorship? Do you think it's right to stop people coming in the group like That's not. You shouldn't say I'm not having your group. That's what we think.

spk_1:   20:51
Yes, so like, I guess a move has Bean I'm review has been a really good platform because I and there's something I encouraged a lot of you who are listening run out to do is so people about your failures and tell people about the things that you struggle with. You don't have to be perfect to be the person to post online. Yeah, I think the biggest lesson I got from the last question will be a couple of months ago. Is that in the console? A government example of being in a console and I very much what I want to our patient Andi projected that rather listening to to what the patient wanted. And, you know, I've got a few comments by completely wrong. You shouldn't have done that. But to me, like also got like, 10 on comments back. I'm so proud of you for like being transparent, being vulnerable and yeah, that tze how I see it. New grass young professionals to

spk_0:   22:02
grow they need to be encouraged to post

spk_1:   22:04
percent percent. So yeah, if that could be one takeaway from our chat today will be a great and just get on and embrace the embrace the views And it doesn't matter If you were on the way people attack you don't let it get personal They're not attacking us a person talking to you for that view, and I guess that people would comment out there like attack you personally and I think that's just not just

spk_0:   22:39
step. Step away from the stick. You can step back from the stick, but the other person might not have bear. Still holding on to what end, right? Well, that's often what it feels like. Okay, do manual therapy. Don't do me no therapy. Do exercises like it's not It's not a thing, but there are definitely people still holding on the eggs. I don't know, Just something I e feel like I'm pretty diagnostic about that. You or are you pretty strong like? No, this is why I penetrate. No, I'm thought Time e Oh, I'm so little important. Teo zero I just like e.

spk_1:   23:41
Like I came from a job where I was told you have to be in 25 minutes in the room doing my own therapy and exercise on DH right now. Sometimes 25 minutes to exercise, but, you know, it could be a 50 50. Could be 40. 60 just really depends. I know that. Yeah, I don't I don't see myself treating one way every single time because every single patient is

spk_0:   24:12
different. I'm kind of reflect on that. Like I don't care how you guys treat. I think it's pretty clear whatever s so it's pretty clear how we treat It has been very clear how we treat from day one, but I've never actually sat in there and said, No, don't do that. It's pretty clear even in our name and how to set up where we do most of the time That's in the exercise. Yeah,

spk_1:   24:35
interesting. But would you be upset if they're wass you junk into someone's someone's concept that doing 20 minutes

spk_0:   24:46
wouldn't be upset if it's not something with anger? Me. But I won't question e what you were talking about this like me as a patient. I prefer Teo doing my body. Yeah, I would never be upset. Well, this is the whole point of this podcast. Right is like, Do we be a little more aggressive by holding one end of the steak and is holding one in with the stick? Prompt people to make better decisions quickly, Be more evidence based, have not hold on to the older ways of treating or is it like our stars. Minimal supervision, I trust. We're always going to learn that for himself and input where he needs it.

spk_1:   25:33
No, that's not the point that make no what, you want more. Do you want more Dr Construction, or do you want more off very perspectives? Which cancer pops? Be a little confusion confusing, but think

spk_0:   25:55
fast. This's the I'm a view podcast getting you private practise ready. We give you fresh ideas on mindset, communication and clinical skills so you can have a full field career.