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The MomCo Leadership Podcast
Welcome to The MomCo Leadership Podcast! We believe that life and leadership are better in community. We’re here to equip and encourage you as a leader and mom. We’ll talk about real issues and practical tools to help you grow in your leadership, motherhood and faith.
The MomCo Leadership Podcast
August Table Talk – Empathetic Leadership - #254
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In this month’s table talk episode, our three cohosts chat through the discussion questions found in this year’s Good Company curriculum video by Karrie Garcia.
You can find our cohosts on Instagram: @andreafortenberry, @ivymamma and @sherri_crandall.
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Welcome to the Momco Leadership Podcast. We believe that life and leadership are better in community. We're here to equip and encourage you as a leader and mom. We'll talk about real issues and practical tools to help you grow in your leadership, motherhood, and faith. Hello leaders, I'm Andrea Fort and Berry, and I have the pleasure of being your host for today's episode, our August Table Talk. In our Table Talks, my co-hosts and I talk through the questions in one of our good company curriculum videos. Today we are chatting through the questions from one of our leader videos from this year, Empathetic Leadership by Carrie Garcia, which also features a great video introduction by our Jennifer Iverson. I'm excited to dive into the questions with you guys today. Welcome, Jen and Sherry.
SPEAKER_01Hello, good to see you. This will be a great conversation. I'm looking forward to it.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I think the three of us have great empathy in our leadership. And so I think this is going to be a fun conversation.
SPEAKER_00I think this is great not only for mom co-leadership, but everywhere, right? Like in our families, in our extended relationships with strangers at the grocery store. Like it's just a really helpful skill that we can practice and learn. And I think it really dives into the EQ emotional, is that right? Emotional intelligence part, right?
SPEAKER_02Is that emotional quotient is actually what the EQ means?
SPEAKER_00But who knows? Yes, but yes, the emotional intelligence side of our brain. We often think about like knowledge, intelligence, and logic, but this is really a great skill for us to have. And we're gonna, yeah, dive through. It's a little bit of a heavier topic for sure, because it's like, oh, how are we gonna see people deeper and like think about trauma that they have or we have that we bring to the table? So that might not sound fun, but I really do think it can be instrumental in helping us to serve and love moms even better. And then again, other people that God has put in our lives. So again, it'll be a good one. So we have just three questions for today. The first one is how can we intentionally create a safe and compassionate space for moms to share their experiences or struggles? Who wants to tackle this one first?
SPEAKER_02Uh I'll I'll start. I think um safe is something we as women are often craving. It's like one of our core needs to feel safe. But safe is different for different people. And so I don't think that creating a safe environment is a really simple like formula to come up with. Um, but I think there is an element of being curious versus making your mind up of what it needs to look like for moms. Um, it's learning more about the people that are in the space that you want to create safety for. Um and I think there is an element of grace and mercy, and sometimes we don't know how to balance grace and mercy with accountability really well. And so I think in this particular video, um we talk about the story of Peter denying Jesus and then how Jesus reacts to Peter when he sees him next. And I think Jesus just gives us a beautiful picture of accountability, what you did is what you did, but also grace and mercy in the whole situation. And so when I think about wanting to create a safe space for a woman, you know, it doesn't mean they get to act however they want to act. There's there's accountability in it, but we can also handle them with um compassion and kindness um in the situation. And so I I would say the number one thing is to really take a posture of curiosity.
SPEAKER_01So good. You know, when you just shared about the story of Peter, this was shared in this video. Um, so for me, a couple things. The key word is awareness, um, being aware and listening to people, like truly listening, not listening to respond, but listening to understand. And as you said, you don't just get a free-for-all to be combative or, you know, you get this grace that you're allowing to walk over people or you know, create a scene sort of thing. We can help manage that um in our in our groups. But what I loved about the story of Peter, to your point, is that God basically called him out on like, you know, Jesus was like, Well, this is what you did. However, he welcomed him on the other side of the shore. And to me, it's this um beautiful painting of like he got to the other side before Jesus met him. And then he met him with this like fire. And to me, I love to go camping, um, glamping. I'll make sure that everyone knows that I really mean glamping.
SPEAKER_02Um fully roughen it.
SPEAKER_01Don't picture me laying on the ground in a tent, okay? But I do like to glamp. But what I loved about it is the fire pit at the end of the evening to me is one of my favorites because we're gathered around it. It's cozy, it's warm. I don't think that was like just happenstance. I think God created this warmth for him as part of the invitation. He had to get to the other side and he was greeted by something that is very comforting to humans. And it's the warmth and the beauty of this fire. And so I think we can create spaces for people to allow them to walk through what they're going through, and we can hold their hand and help them get to the other side, but always be welcoming with this, like, you know, fire, so to speak, this like comforting space. And so if we're aware of someone's actions, if um, I'm gonna plug another uh podcast that I just did with Carrie who did this video for us, and we walk through these like signs of what um we can be looking for. When you see someone, but I encourage you to listen to it because it's just these two are like companion pieces, I think. Um, but when you see someone who's irritated or who's oversharing or who totally withdraws, like there's signs and symptoms that there's something going on here that we should have our empathetic antennas up going, okay, this isn't quite normal. This whatever conversation has made this person agitated, quiet, oversharing, rude, whatever that becomes. If we're empathetic, we are aware that this is happening. And so then we can respond better with that open, comforting, like fire environment. So I would just say that awareness is just really key.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. And it I really can just change our perspective of when we see someone, like you said, withdrawing, maybe saying something rude. It's like, okay, we do, we may need to address that, but there's something going on on the other side. And so being able to have that skill is is really huge. I thought of a very practical thing that my group did is that's just to talk about the rules and the expectations for our conversations at the table. And so at our very first meeting of the year, our coordinator would get up and say, like, we want you to develop good friendships and relationship and community with the moms at your table. And in order for us to do that, here are the principles, the rules, if you don't like that word. You could use principles that we're gonna follow together at the table. And that is we keep confidential what everyone shares at the table. We don't text it to friends, we don't blab it to other people. We really want to keep it a safe space. We don't dominate the table conversation because we want to give everyone else the opportunity to have time to talk and to share. And there were probably a couple of other things, but those are the top two things that I remember. And then our coordinators printed out those guidelines and set them on the table. So they were just there as part of the centerpiece, just as a reminder of this is the culture that we want in our group, and we want you to feel safe to be able to share with one another. So I just think, again, it's something simple and it might feel awkward to get up and say that, but it just sets the tone for this is how we want our group to develop community and everybody is on board. And I feel like generally it's not a problem when you are able to state it out loud.
SPEAKER_01That's so good. Simple but clear expectations are really helpful and allows people to share and feel safe if if everyone's being told this is not, you know, blabber conversation to take somewhere else. Um I I like that idea a lot.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Yeah, again, just practical but powerful, I think. And then the other thing I thought of is that we can intentionally create the safe, compassionate space where moms can share. And as a leader, let's be the one to go first. Because when we do, it invites moms to share and to realize, oh, I'm not alone in a struggle that I have, or it's okay for me to say something hard that I'm going through because I've seen how everyone at the table has responded when you have shared. So it, you know, it feels risky, it's vulnerable, but I think vulnerability is something that can be contagious in a good way, right? Where we're able to share and be open and even at little things. Like I remember being in a group of moms when my kids were little, and she mentioned, you know, I yelled at my daughter and she like went on with her story, but to me, I was struggling with yelling. And I just thought, wow, my friend is struggling with that too. And I had no idea. And I think she is such a good mom. And it just was such an encouragement to me that she like threw that into the story that she was telling. So again, even little things I think can be an encouragement and just the invitation for other moms to know they're not alone and then to feel safe that they could share that too.
SPEAKER_01I I want to say, I think this also comes with a warning label, if I'm being super honest. Um, because I think you do need to like be willing to go first and share, but also be careful because I think people tend to want to share their story to say, I understand, I'm sharing too. But oftentimes it becomes then their way because they haven't got to share their story, that they then overshare and overshadow the person that just was needing to be heard. So as a leader, be careful to monitor yourself in that, but also you can help monitor the table to say, hey, Andrea was just, let's let her finish sharing. Um, but it's great that you can relate to that because otherwise, if you're not careful, um, if you have a whole group of people who haven't had a chance to share anything, it becomes the well, you think you have it bad. Wait till you hear my story. And we can create that type of environment too. So I just think that comes with a caveat of be careful when you share, um, that you're allowing the other person to truly and fully share before you share your story, and then monitor that people aren't trying to one up each other in the sharing department. So that's the only thing that I've seen go wrong sometimes in a group setting. So I would just say monitor that. But if you're not willing to share anything, you're certainly not going to create a space where someone feels comfortable in sharing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that was such a great addition. So thank you for that because yeah, it can become that. And that actually leads into our next question really well, which is in what ways can I show curiosity and empathy without feeling the need to fix someone's story or add on to that without needing to trump someone's story or to tell, yeah, my whole thing while not letting them be able to share, yeah, to overshadow. Jen, do you have thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I am definitely a fixer. Um, and uh I know this the third question asks about our past, but like I always want to fix the situation, right? And I have had practically to, you know, bite my tongue, so to speak, when somebody's talking, because I have stories that relate to your stories. I have things that have happened and I maybe have come through on the other side and know what might help, but sometimes people just want to share to be heard, you know, to to be seen for somebody to go, it you're valid in your feelings. And um, so I've really worked hard just to kind of bite my tongue, and it takes practice. Sometimes it's listening to my kids or my husband or my friends share something, and I'm like, I have something I could say. They didn't ask me to fix this, they didn't ask me, do you know how I feel? Like, so I think practicing it occasionally hurts physically. Like, but I have something to say, and that's not to say all the time, because sometimes, like Sherry said, people need to know that they're not the only one that's felt this way, but they also don't need you to be diminishing what they're saying by saying, Oh, yeah, I felt that too. It's no big deal, or oh, there's an easy way for you to fix this. Like sometimes they just need to sit in it, and I think that's the empathetic part that a lot of times we try to scooch past to the solution.
SPEAKER_01Well, because oftentimes what someone's sharing is uncomfortable, and so when you feel uncomfortable, you're like, oh dear, how can I fix this so that everyone doesn't feel uncomfortable? And especially as a leader, I mean, I have found myself same done, like you know, I've been doing this a while. Like I've experienced these not always such easy things in my life. And so you think, well, if I share that, maybe I could help them. What I've learned for me has become a skill because otherwise I designate myself as the junior Holy Spirit when um really only God can fix it. And so I've I've practiced something that when I start to feel that uncomfortable or like I want to fix it, I just quietly am praying, God, please help me to discern when I should speak and when I shouldn't. Please help me to say something that would be comforting. And you can be praying that while you're still actively listening, but it has helped me so much. And there's been times where I was just like, oh, I need to, but then I said that and I felt in my spirit God saying, like, no, they have to work on this themselves, and you are just here to say, I'm sorry that you've experienced that. And oftentimes, like we also as a as a believer, we want to be like, let's everybody stop and we'll pray. And not that praying is a bad thing. We cover this in the other conversation, but it's sometimes not the appropriate thing to do because then it also feels dismissive, or we just gave them sort of a you know, well, God's got this, He won't give you anything more than you can handle. And we say these things that, like, that's not true. We're often given big things that we can't handle because then if we could handle it on our own, why would we need God? So allowing them space without fixing, because if you're a fixer, it's really hard to be quiet. But that's not your role. Like God's not asking you to fix it, He's asking you to maybe be a part of it, or maybe maybe your friendship or your story will help be part of the healing, but at the end you can't fix it. And so just being aware of that is just so important. It's not your job. Um, and empathy doesn't mean like Lone Ranger, charge in and save the day. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's funny, as you guys were talking, I remembered one of the other principles that my group shared, and it was that we are not fixers of each other's things that we want to listen. And you mentioned that, Jen, when you were talking, you know, listening is huge. I feel like that is one of the biggest ways we can show curiosity and empathy is to someone is to listen and not think about what we want to say or the story we have or what worked for us. It's just to listen. Sometimes we just want to be heard. And actually, you know, it's funny in the male-female relationships. Like often when I'm talking to my husband about something or you know, a struggle I'm having, I don't want him to fix it. I just want him to listen. And so I feel like that's a very relatable thing, right? Like so sometimes I've learned to tell him, I just I just need you to listen. I don't need you to fix it right now. I just need to process with you. And so remembering that that applies to even, you know, our female relationships is we just sometimes need someone to process with and we don't need someone to jump in and fix it for us.
SPEAKER_01I we my husband and I have this now years late. We'll be married a long time this September. Um, but he now says to me, is this something you want me to help fix? Or do you just want me to listen? And I'm like, I just need you to listen. I'm just frustrated, or I just, you know, because he wanted to fix it for me because he didn't want to see me upset, especially when it came to the kids and as they've gotten older, sometimes adult relationships, you're just like, ah, I I want to fix this for them. I can't fix that for my kids. And you want to. So then you take that to your husband and he can't fix it either. So just asking those questions, like, I just need someone to listen. And sometimes you work it out in the expression of what you're saying, you kind of know in your mind what you should do. Yeah. And and so I think it's a good process to let someone completely talk it out. And then if they say, What do you think or what would you do? that opens your door to then share that. But if they just need to, you're almost like stopping their process if you interrupt and and try and fix it for them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a great point. I think a better question is how can I support this person? Not how can I fix the situation? Jennifer, what were you gonna say?
SPEAKER_02I think part of curiosity too is knowing yourself. Like if I didn't know that I was a fixer and wanted to jump in and fix things, then I wouldn't know to work on not fixing. And so I think you have to part of empathetic, being empathetic is knowing a little bit more about yourself and your personality and what you want to accomplish. I mean, I love personality things, uh, you know, a little bit of a personality nerd, but I think you have to have worked on yourself a little bit to be able to articulate that empathy.
SPEAKER_00That's so good, which is actually our next question. So, what personal biases or past experiences might affect how I respond to others and how can I become more aware of them in leadership moments? So that speaks exactly to what you were saying. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02I love how in the Bible, like we talked about this story of Peter, Peter is just like he is passionate about everything, and and he is an all or nothing person. Um, you know, I think of when Jesus was washing uh the disciples' feet, and and Peter's like, you shouldn't be doing this. No, no, I should be washing your feet. Like, don't do this at all. And then Jesus explains why he's doing it, and Peter's like, wash my whole body! Like he's just so extreme. And I think the the beautiful part about that is Jesus knows that about Peter. And so how he approaches Peter, how he speaks to Peter has to do with a reaction to Peter's passion. And so I think there's, you know, knowing that I am a um that conflict makes me uncomfortable. Has allowed me, like Sherry said, to step into it and knowing, okay, this is going to be uncomfortable. I'm not going to run away from it. I'm going to sit in this uncomfort because I know it's important. And so I think our past experiences, when somebody yells at you, if you've been yelled at in the past and it it you know raises your hormone, your fight or flight takes over, you need to be able to stop and recognize, oh, this is my reaction to this. That person is not necessarily attacking me, even though I feel attacked. Um, and so I think there's some some of those kinds of things. Again, like I said, you have to be able to work on yourself to be able to step into some of these reactions or some of these situations uh with empathy.
SPEAKER_01That's such a good point, Jen. I think um I attended the seminar years ago when um I actually was in college, and this lady said, Did everybody bring a backpack or a purse to this lecture? And of course, you know, raise your hand if you did. And so, of course, you know, of course, we all had a backpack or a purse with us. And she said, Imagine this, imagine that in your purse or your backpack are all the really difficult things that have happened to you in your life, and you're just carrying it around with you, which in reality is true. Like we all carry that with us. Now we might not even it might look more like we have this like load of bricks or whatever it is, depending on what happened to you in the past, but know that my purse is filled with things, and so is yours, and so is yours. And if we start there, just that we each carry in a backpack or a purse or in our person these things that have happened. And so when you start to hear someone yelling, you immediately become defensive if you had been yelled at, right? Or if you experienced a trauma. And you know, nowadays I think the word trauma can be a little overused or the word trigger. But let's let's bring it down to like the fact that people experience trauma. And so how you respond, even in a very normal conversation, if you are aware that you this might elevate you or it triggers you when someone starts behaving this way, um, it's so good the self-awareness and just know that they're responding from the bag that they're carrying, and you're responding from the bag that you carry. And if I could unzip my bag and just like open it for you and be like, guys, this is why this feels so wrong to me, or why I got so upset about this, or why I felt this way, it's because look at what's in my bag. And you could say, here, let me unzip my bag. You know, why I responded back to you is look inside. This is why I am talking this way to you. And I've never forgot that lecture because it was so like I was young and it just made so much sense to me. And I thought, you know, even with people in my own family or coworkers or friends, like if I just ask maybe to peek inside the bag or we start to share those things, then it can make sense. And you know, I can understand why you responded the way you did, or maybe why you're not responding at all. It is because you're afraid of being shut down or it didn't matter, you don't feel important. So it just was such a good reminder to me that we all carry something. And empathy is the fact that I can look inside your bag and understand that that might be why you're responding that way.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00I love that visual because we can all get that and understand it. And like you said, we do all carry around these things. Just we may not be brave enough to open our bag or we might be afraid to open our own bag, right? Because we want to just stuff that's those things in there. And it's like we've I don't want to deal with these things. But I have found that if we don't deal with our things, like eventually we have to, because they come up and they affect our relationships and how we show up in the world. So, leaders, just want to encourage you to be brave and know yourself better and take a look in your own bag. And I think that will help us to be able to see and love others and care for them with more empathy than before.
SPEAKER_02I want to add on to Sherry's analogy too, because sometimes people don't open their bags for you to see. But have you ever seen somebody or maybe your own kid with a backpack and you're like, that is a really heavy backpack? And I think one thing we get to see is that person's carrying a really heavy backpack. I don't know what's in it, but I can see that it's really heavy. And and so sometimes that's also part of the curiosity is paying attention to what they're carrying in the midst of all of that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let's add one more bag analogy on top of this. I think um if we're going on this train, a lot of people carry a beautiful designer handbag and it looks perfect from the outside, and you're just like, wow, I wish I had that handbag because it's just so posh, right? But you don't know what's inside of it versus the person who might not be able to put keep all that together and they're carrying a grocery sack and rocks are just falling out of it because but it doesn't mean that both aren't equally disturbing or hard for that person. So again, empathy allows you to see even if you can't peek in the bag, just knowing that someone has stuff because they're human.
SPEAKER_02Right. Let's just assume everybody has something.
SPEAKER_01Just assume that y'all got something going on because you do. Yeah, yeah. Um, and just come at it with that. Just assume that you all have got something going on around that table, and someone might not be ready to share, and that's okay. But approaching it with the fact that most likely, if it isn't going on now, it did go on in the past and it might cause someone to respond in a way that you might be surprised. So just because you can't see it doesn't mean that it's not there.
SPEAKER_02Sometimes I live in a little bit of a fantasy world when I'm driving because I get slightly irritated at other people that don't know how to drive. Oh, and um I know. So there you go. Uh, but sometimes I have to like I've had to work on it because who needs their blood pressure super high when they're driving? Right. Right. And so I my kids laugh because I am the most passive aggressive conversationalist when I'm driving. I'll be like, oh, you must be in such a hurry that you just needed to jump ahead one more card. I totally get it. Let me give you all the space in the world. And so there's an element of that where I almost make fun of it quietly, but it is the recognizing like that person didn't go, oh, there's Jennifer, let me cut her off. Like they have their own anger issues, their own things they're dealing with. And they decided that following me was worse than jumping in front of me. Like, you know, so I think sometimes we have to kind of approach things a little more lighthearted than than they are, and things that trigger us sometimes are things that we don't necessarily need to avoid, but need to move through.
SPEAKER_01So and then everyone's out to get you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and now neither one of you will want me to ever drive with you again, I'm sure. I have driven everyone. I promise you, it's very entertaining.
SPEAKER_00We've driven with you, Jennifer. We know. I was gonna say this actually reminds me of a previous conversation that we've had about how not everything is about us, right? Like when someone reacts or responds or behaves in a certain way, we often will think it's about us, like, oh, they were being rude to me or they must not like me. But in reality, again, it's because of what they're carrying in their bag. And this also reminded me of my curriculum video that I did last year for make it awkward of own your story about how I almost ran into my neighbor and it was because I was going through a really hard season and was not paying attention as well because I was having a hard day and I almost hit her and then it, you know, I had to, I went and apologized and all of that. But just yeah, it just gave me that reminder of that story of, you know, sometimes it's because someone's walking through something. And when as leaders we have that awareness, we may not know what's going on, or we may not know, again, all the whys behind it. But when we can just have those eyes really to see people, how God sees them, of you know, this is God's child and they're carrying something, and it's most likely not my job to fix it. It's God's job. And I can love and support this person. I can walk alongside them, I can pray for them, right? Even the stranger who cut us off in traffic, like we can pray for them and pray that God helps us to learn how to deal with, like you said, Sherry, the the triggers, the traumas, the different things that we have gone through, what we're carrying, and God can grow and change us through those things.
SPEAKER_02I want to add one more practical thing, specifically for our mom co-leaders, but I think it adapts to any leadership position. Andrea, you said something about setting clear expectations and to go with your analogy, like what we do around the table, you know, kind of things. I think in leadership, it's important to have those clear expectations because it allows you to be curious when somebody doesn't meet those. So if you have the expectation that we arrive on time and somebody is always 10 minutes late, the empathy part of us gets to be curious and say, Hey, we have this expectation that we all arrive on time, and I've noticed that you are arriving late. Is there something going on that's causing that to happen? Your curiosity says this person isn't intentionally being late. You're giving them the grace to say, yes, something's going on, versus assuming that they just don't pay attention to time. And so I think that's just um, I mean, like that is not a trauma thing necessarily. That's just a very simple, um, not a whole lot of emotion kind of situation that could become very emotional if the person feels like you're accusing them. I don't ever want to do something wrong. And so if somebody were to come at me and say, Why are you late? I would immediately feel like I was being told I was doing something wrong. And so I just think that's maybe a practical way that you can include empathetic leadership, but it does start with being very clear about your expectations too.
SPEAKER_00I love the again, it's that curiosity posture and asking questions that really are helpful.
SPEAKER_01Well, because curiosity is never accusatory. And I think that's really important to know the difference because when you you've felt accused of something, when you're like, wait a second, like where that's coming from, versus curious, the person, if especially if you're doing it very authentically, you need to work on that. That's it's a skill because otherwise it does come across as like instead of just curious, it's like why did you do that? Especially with our kids or sometimes with people on our own leadership team. So practice, practice, practice. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Just this skill, like many others, requires practice for us to get better. So thanks for that. Well, friends, this has been a great conversation as always. So thank you, Sherry and Jennifer and leaders. We hope that you found it valuable that you're able to take away practical things to apply to your leadership, whether that is in your mom co group or in all the other places and spaces that God has called to. So thank you so much for listening today. Leaders, we know that your time is valuable. We're proud of you for investing in yourself by listening in today. We know that when you invest in mom, you change the world. We believe in you and we're caring for you.
