SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to At the Table, a podcast from Quest Fellowship Church. In each episode, we explore how faith intersects with real life, how we navigate culture, community, and personal growth as followers of Jesus. These are just conversations, not conclusions, and space to simply think deeply, listen well, and walk in this journey together. We hope you enjoy today's show. Alright, well, we're back today. For those that don't know me, I'm Brock. I'm a staff here at Quest, and I have uh Jason with us today, who is an elder here at Quest. So um Jason, is there anything more you want to say about yourself beyond that you're an elder?

SPEAKER_01 0:32

I mean, I'm an elder, and uh I also head up our affinity groups. Yep, yep. And so uh that's uh part of my role. And I serve coffee once once a month.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

There you go. So if you ever get your coffee from a really nice gentleman named Jason, that's who we're talking about. It's not him. He also does you also do game nights.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Do game nights, yeah. We actually have one tonight. Yep, yep. Yeah, we do an annual convention, uh board game convention where we um you know raise money for local charities. So this year we're looking to maybe exceed over twelve thousand dollars.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

So it's an exciting thing, especially with you have people that are um oh it's just a good entry point for folks like a to church for the first time maybe, but also just to kind of build community and um a safe place that it happens to also be where a church meets just to come and play board games is a super cool thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Yeah, it's a good it's good to just kind of build awareness of the community without uh the pressure of like making people feel like they're gonna come and you know listen to you stop what they're doing and preach to them for a while. Right. And just uh, you know, love them people and make them feel comfortable. So that's super awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

And you know, it's also a place of stability and consistency for them, which also kind of leads to what we're talking about today, which is um what does it look like to kind of have stability and freedom in Christ's authority? Right? That's kind of a um uh we we sing a lot of songs that are about this, you know, the classic firm foundation, one that we love here. Rain came, wind blew, my house is built on you. Yep, you have build my life, songs like that. So there's a it's a common like terminology used within the church world, right? So I feel like we we end up with a lot of you know familiarity to this, but the but it's also really deep and heavy of a concept. And I I feel like because of the the I guess the commonality that the phrase shows up in terms of in church, that it that it can become a little bit mundane, probably, and we can become maybe even like a little numb to what it what we're actually saying and what that actually looks like. So, what I would like to do is to start off um reading Matthew chapter seven, verse 24 through 27, which says, Everyone who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it didn't it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand, and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the wind blew, and beat against the house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it. So I guess my question is what is it like for you? Well broad, we'll go broad first. What is it like for you to kind of build your life on Christ and a solid foundation? What are some things that you feel like you've done in the past or maybe you currently do that kind of help with that stability?

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Yeah, I mean, I think um a lot of it is like um, you know, like in the example there with the parable of the the house, I mean, what's the the strong foundation does or building the the foundation on the rock does is it allows you to rely on something other than yourself to provide that foundation. So I think um, you know, especially in the challenges in um you know our life as a family, um, you know, certainly we we if if anybody knows my oldest daughter, Ella, um, you know, she was born uh premature, went through a lot of issues. Um and so you know, we saw lots of families while she was in the hospital who uh didn't have um you know faith in Christ as their foundation. Sure. And um every challenge was uh huge. Um a lot of it they felt was on them. Um and the scary thing about that is when you are unable to control your situation, right, uh you feel really helpless. Sure. Yeah. You know, for me and Meredith, you know, we had the benefit of being able to, you know, rely on uh Christ and you know our faith to get us through those times, realizing that you know what, it's not in our power. Right. You know, the only thing we could do is rest on God, you know, to get us through, you know, when she was, you know, going through multiple surgeries and all these things when she was, you know, firstborn. And um there's uh there's a a strange kind of peace, you know, the Bible talks about the peace that you know basically surpasses all understanding. Right. Uh and we experienced that. Um in that, you know, when something would happen, when a doctor would come in and you know, in one instance they said, you know, your daughter has about a 20% chance of surviving the night. Wow. Right. Yeah, yeah. Um in those cases it was strange to us that you know we just had to give it to God because we couldn't do anything about it. Right. And so that foundation allowed us to have that peace that we didn't understand, but we just knew whether the end result was going to be what we expected or or what we hoped for or wasn't that God was still in control. Yeah. And you know, he's he still is going to shore us up and give us that stability, right? Sure. Um, regardless of the outcome. So for us, it just really was meant a lot to us. I'll I could rese that. This is where you edit. Yeah, this is where we edit. No, this is edit-free. It's okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

We say stuff wrong, it happens.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Yeah. So um, you know, so for us, I think it was just the fact that we did not have to rely on our own strength and our own, you know, intelligence and decision making and all these things. We could, you know, rely on on that foundation, and that that really got us through, you know, and we've seen that over and over through the course of that.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Yeah, I think it's um a lot of times we get to places where we you are at a point of desperation where you don't really have no choice. Um you don't really have no choice, don't have any choice, I guess to say better English. Um but I think for me it's like lately I've been thinking a lot about what is it like to do that even when things are fine. When things are good, you know? Um and I think when things are good, that's the time when you do the building. Yeah. You don't want to be trying to build in the middle of a storm. Yeah. You know, like you as the as the as the waves are pounding the house, you don't be trying to lay brick. Like it's not the good time to do that.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

And it makes it really hard to do that in the midst of those things. And so um, it's like the whole, you know, play like you're gonna or practice like you're gonna play. Yep. You know, stay ready so you don't have to get ready. Like all those like phrases we use just in culture, I think really apply here. Um because you know, I was reading in in the the Luke, Luke 20, verse 17 through 18, he says, but he looked directly at them and said, What then is this that is written, the stone that the builders rejected has become the new cornerstone. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him. This is Jesus talking.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Um, and so there's a there's a warning there, right? In the sense that, and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him. And so to me, what that says is like, in other words, there's not really He used the word rejected. That's not ignorance, yeah. That's a conscious choice that I I I've been educated on what this is, I'm aware of what this is, and I choose to reject it anyway. Yeah. Um, and and I think what it's basically saying when he's talking about um, I think it's verse 18 when he says, and everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him. Um you definitely want to be falling on the stone, not falling, not it falling on you. Yes. You know? Yeah, 100%. And I think he Jesus is kind of referring to eventually he's coming back and the stone's falling, right? And so you want to make sure that it's much better to humbly fall on it, yes, be broken down, and then rebuild upon it.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Than to be broken by it.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Than to be broken by it. Yeah. And and it's like almost like there's just not a neutral response. There can't be there's there is no such thing as a neutral response to Jesus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

And and you know, as I was doing some studying right for this and listened to a couple sermons and things, um, you know, one thing that kept kept uh standing out to me was, you know, it talks about the stone that the builders rejected, right? And the builders are stone experts. Yeah, yeah. Right? Like they are of anybody else, they are the most qualified to identify the best stone.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

The best possible stone.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

To lay for a foundation and to set as the corner, you know, that that that cornerstone to align everything else against. And yet those same builders didn't recognize the perfect stone who was Jesus, right? Um, and you know, Peter, Peter called that out um, you know, when him and John had uh you know healed the or where the some of this passage came from. They healed the lame man um at the beautiful gate, and then you know uh the religious leaders of the time came and they were like, hey, you guys can't do that, you know, what are you doing? They're criticizing them for you know healing a guy, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, it's such a terrible thing you've done.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Yeah, it's such a terrible thing. And um, you know, Peter uses uses that reference, right? That uh that Jesus was the stone, that the builders rejected, referring to them as the builders. And so the irony, and like you said, it's not it's not ignorance. You know, Peter called out that the common people, that yeah, when they voted to let you know Barabbas go and you know let Jesus be crucified, you know, Peter even says they did that in ignorance. Yeah. And so did your leaders. Yeah. But now he's calling out the fact that like you should have recognized who Jesus was. So um that was one thing that really stu stuck out to me was the people who were like paid to paid to do this. Of anybody I should know, you should be the ones. You should be the ones that identify this. So um uh so that that was one thing that stood out to me. And I think I've I lost the the gist of your additional questions.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

That was that was great. I mean, I it's funny that um that uh I don't think I ever even asked you a question, so it's fine. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Um yeah, I can keep going on. Yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Yeah, keep going. Um the thing that's funny to me about it too is like if I was something that just came to mind was playing, like playing Jenga. Yes, you know, like I I've played played Jenga with my niece, and and she's so like I'll I we'll we'll have the tower, right? And I'll be I'm really careful. Yes. I'm like methodically like trying to choose the right block to remove, like you know, really taking my time. And she's just like yeah, and it works. She wins often. And it's it's frustrating because I'm like, you don't need you're just so you just have faith that this is gonna hold on no matter what you do to it. And I feel like that's like that childlife, childlike faith that Jesus talks about. Definitely some truth in that. That like like she she's like trusting that whatever the foundation of this this this tower that we've built, that the cornerstone is so strong that she's just willing just to go poke at it you know, aggressively. And I'm over here like methodically, like, well, what if this? I'm overthinking everything. I'm like, should I do this? Should I do that? And at some point you're like, you know, you just gotta trust that that that the that Jesus is is enough. You know?

SPEAKER_01 11:11

That translates so well. Yeah, like because I think, you know, in some of our like Kinet groups and men's the men's group and stuff, you know, we've been talking about like what are those things that um make you hesitant about like sharing the gospel or about being a witness, right? And a lot of times it's because we overthink things, like we think, oh, uh, you know, are we gonna say the wrong thing uh to somebody who's uh you know an unbeliever? Sure. Yeah. And is that gonna like uh impact them? Yeah. And you know, I I could ruin them, I could, I could, I could make them think this about you know the uh Christianity, and they'll you know they'll never be interested in Jesus after this. And you know, I was reminded of like, you know, you're not that big a deal. Yeah. Like it's you're not that guy. It's the Holy Spirit that we scripture tells us is the one that makes dead souls alive. Yeah. It's the Holy Spirit's working to convict uh you know uh someone of sin and righteousness and judgment, right? Right, right. Like we're not part of that part process. Yeah, we're not mentioned. We're just we're mentioned to obey and be faithful and to share the gospel and be witnesses.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

We're the temple.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Right. The temple really does nothing in itself. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

So you know, I think that as like uh what's the word? As as as much as we might fumble the delivery of sharing our faith, or may not say the perfect words or whatever, you know, the Holy Spirit can over can compensate for all that.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Like compensate for all our deficiencies.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

And it doesn't mean you don't try.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

It doesn't mean you don't try.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

You should work on your delivery, there's you know for sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yeah. For sure. But like don't put so much emphasis on you, like just be obedient, like like you said, you know, with the Jenga stuff, like, you know, she's just gone, yeah, going, she's has face. It's like if we if we just took more risks like that, yeah, you know, I think we'd probably see a lot more results.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Well that's like that's that uh that's that a given authority to Christ part. Yeah. It's like understand that really again, yeah, we're not that big of a deal. Both of us to assume we have that that that God can't work in spite of us. Yes. Now, obviously, you don't want to be constantly on the in spite of us side of things. 100%. You know, especially willingly, but I think obviously you like we said, you attempt to to work on your delivery and and say the right things, but you're not going to sometimes, and it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Yeah. And um Yeah, don't let that hold you back from sharing. Right. Right? Because you you can't deliver the message the same way that like our pastoral team would on a Sunday morning. Right. You know, you that's not the standard we're to be set. We're supposed to be sharing our own experiences and you know, just talk about like what Jesus has done in your own life. Yeah. You know, you let that be your witness, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:44

So yeah, I think um for me, the um a couple years ago I was at my family has a place at White Lake, and we were we were down there, and and it's like my dad's whole side of the family. So all my cousins, everybody. Um, and one of my favorite things to watch is for some reason where our house is on this side, like it's a small lake, it's just a big circle. It's a natural lake. And the rain seems to always come from across the lake. And so my favorite thing to do is to watch the line, the white line of the rain hitting the lake, just slowly move across the lake.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Um, and it's beautiful to watch from inside the house, especially if a storm comes, right? Um, but a couple years ago I got stuck out there kind of on purpose with a camera and in the water. In the middle, no, in on the on the dock. On the dock, okay. But it has a roof. Um but it was a gnarly storm that blew up, you know. And um and it's beautiful. The storm can be beautiful when you're when you're safe and secure. Like it's not always fun. And it's like Abigail and I were talking about actually earlier before we recorded this, that you know, sometimes like making the right decision doesn't mean it's gonna be fun.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

It's not always good. Yep. But when you're stable and you're on something stable, you can find beauty in the storm that's inevitably gonna hit all of us. Yeah. Um, it's really terrifying when you have no stability.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

And like you were talking about talking about like you don't want to end up, you don't want to, you don't want your whole life to explode and then trying to build back in the midst of that. Yeah. You know, and and I think for for people, that's like unfortunately, we're stubborn creatures by nature, even obviously it's a spectrum. Some of us are more stubborn than others by nature, but generally we're all stubborn because we're all humans. And so a lot of times, like I'm I'm gonna say this quote again. I said on the podcast not long ago, but um, if you're not gonna listen, you're gonna feel ultimately. And so we a lot of times we end up forcing ourselves just to feel because we're just not willing to listen, myself included. And so, you know, what do you feel like for you like are practical things you've done that help you maintain the stability of the foundation in the good seasons? Because I feel like that's when we should be doing a lot of the maintenance, yeah. Is like upkeep on the house, supposedly, you know, in in in a in a way.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Um yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, I th I you know, it's it's just some of the reading this week, like um, you know, I I was reading um also in Acts where you know Stephen was kind of giving his testimony before he was stoned, and he basically just like you know took everybody from like um you know the patriarchs all the way through to Jesus kind of thing. And um I was reminded of the fact that you know Moses was 40 years old when um you know he tried to essentially break up a fight and killed the Egyptians, and then you know, he tried to break up another fight with you know two of his brethren and you know they were basically not having it, and he, you know, flees, right? He was then in the wilderness 40 more days or 40 more years until the you know the burning bush and all that stuff. And so he was 80 when he started leading, you know, when God called him to lead the uh you know the the Hebrew children out of out of Egypt. And so, like you said, all that 40 years was prep preparation time. We live in a society where like we don't want to spend an hour preparing.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Yeah, you know, true.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Um so so I think like you said, in the good seasons, I think part of it is um, like you said, it's per it's preparing. Um I think the way that I do it is one is try to think about um, you know, what the end goal is. You know, for for for me, like um I think not having the foundation, um, and and I kind of talked about this a little bit in the hospital, not having that foundation means that everything you deal with is a completely new and unknown experience. Right. With an outcome that you you can't predict or even know. Sure. And so you go into every situation having no basis for what your beliefs are gonna be, your outcome, anything else. Um, whereas if you have that foundation, like even before the situation happens, you're you're well prepared for it. So, you know, for me, I think part of it is just um trying to anticipate uh, you know, what the next phases of your life are gonna be, what the next phases of your friendships are gonna be, your church is gonna be. Some of it is like, uh, how can I be a better friend to um, you know, younger friends who are going through things that me and my wife went through when we were their age. Yep. Um, some of it is okay, where do I see deficits in my life and who can I look at as a mentor that I can kind of follow behind in the faith? Right. You know, because I've got time to deal with that right now. Um and I think the basics are the same, and that's reading, reading scripture and praying. I mean, that's you know, yeah, that that's that ain't never gonna change. Yeah, that's true. So so I think it's a lot of that, and I think it's it's a lot of just um again, we we know what the end is. Yeah. You know, we know that this life is just a very short amount of time that we're here and that eternity is the real deal. Like, you know, that that's that's the whole whole thing. The stone's falling. Yeah, exactly. The stone's falling. So, you know, how do we live our life in anticipation of you know what God is working toward in in humanity in general, so that we're not just focused on the everyday cares of this life. Yeah. So that's a lot harder said than done because there's so much distraction in the world today that draws our attention. But um, I just think kind of like with the foundation being that way that of aligning every other stone, you know, looking to Jesus as like our North Star and just continuing to follow that in the in the times when things are smooth, uh making sure that you're keeping your eye on you know on God and what he'd have you do, but also making sure that you have reflected on the past so that you've learned from it, so that you're prepared and and you don't kind of assume that you've like arrived or you've got it all. So I don't know. Yeah, no, that's kind of a long-winded answer.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

That's very good though. It's all I mean it's all I agree 100%. Um yeah, because I think a lot of this is like like one of our one of our on the outline we're kind of looking at, you know, we're not making this all up on the fly, even though it may feel like that sometimes. But um but like the stability in the in in your body, mind, and soul. Right? Like the the because we you hear a lot of mental health stuff in today's world, and um and it's it's it's real. It's not like it's it's it's stuff that we I think all deal with. The older I get, the more I realize I used to say I never I didn't really have any mental health issues. Um and I'm not to to varying degrees of other people. Obviously, I'm I'm less, you know, I don't deal with it as much as some and you know, more than others, but um the older I get the more I realize I do have things that you struggle with mentally, right? Um a lot of times it is those those past experiences, um, or it could be, you know, um stuff you're going through actively, it could be a lot of different things. Um and it and there obviously are the chemical aspects of mental health too that are very real as well. But that's less of what I'm talking about here. It's more of like the things that we can control um and the things that we might not want to because a lot of times what can keep you from I guess what I'm trying to say is a lot of times what can keep you from building a strong foundation is your in unwillingness to deal with things that you need to deal with and process through things that you need to process, whether it's stuff that's happened to you, whether it's stuff that you've done, whether it's stuff that um that you just never have really been able to process and work through. And I think those things can keep you from, you know, we like staff just got back from a conference literally yesterday. Um and a lot of what they talked about was like just the like checking your gauges, you know, and there was I this is terrible, I can't remember what they were right now. Um they're they're in my notes somewhere, but um, you know, still processing all of that as we're doing this. So it's a lot of lot of things, but it's all really good. Um but they just talked about how how easy it is to drift.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

And how and how and how how subtle the drift can happen. Yep. And then next thing you know, you realize you're somewhere where you never thought you would be.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Yeah, that's yeah, you know, yeah, the whole like frog in the hot pot, yeah, bowling pot thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Or or you're like, I love the one too, where you're you know, you get in the ocean. You have your spot, your tent, and tile late on the beach real nice, beautiful sunny day. You're out there swimming, enjoying the water. Next thing you know, you're a hundred yards down the beach because you didn't realize how far you drift. You look up and now you got a long walk back in the sand in the heat. And so, or a long swim back, depending on how you want to do it. And so, you know, I like how do you what do you what does work for you in terms of like like keeping tabs on the drift?

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Yeah, so I mean, um some of what you're talking about is uh like self-reflection. Sure. I think too. Um some of us are not as good at self-reflection. Yeah. And that's where I think friends, your spouse, and accountability comes to mind. And I think what you got you have to do is you have to ask, like, you know, m my my wife Meredith and I a lot of times, you know, we'll ask, like, you know, just hey, am I like, am I doing anything that's like bugging you, or like have I improved in these areas that I've been working on? Like, do you actually see improvement? And you know, so so if you have people in your life that you can trust to help um point out areas that are deficits um or areas uh that you can improve on, um, sometimes that can be better than self-reflection because for me, I've got a lot of blind spots that I don't see. Sure. But other people will see, right? Um, so I think it's part of that. Like, you know, when you talked about um the the work that you put in, um, you know, foundations can crack.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Right? Gotta maintain them. Um you gotta maintain them. So I think if you're aware of a deficit, um, then not taking action is like that drift you talk about. And the and I think the problem with not taking action is the more that you continue to let something go, I think you become start become numbing to numb to that. Absolutely. And so the problem with that is you then stop believing that that thing that you should be doing more or shouldn't be or should be doing less or whatever is just normal, or oh, that's just who I am, or this kind of thing. And I think you become maybe a little less sensitive to the Holy Spirit's nudging in those areas. Yep. Um, so I would much rather like hopefully identify those things myself than have to wait until like I'm chastened by the spirit and and then that becomes a much harder lesson. Yeah. Um, I don't do a great job of that a lot of times. But um, yeah, I mean, I guess that's my thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah. I mean, for me, it's it's a um it's much harder to like rewire your brain the longer you let it wires get crossed. Yeah. Because then you the more tracing you have to do and the more undoing you have to do. Yeah. I mean, like growing up as a teenager, you know, like a lot of guys and and girls, you know, like I struggle with pornography and stuff like that in the past, and like rewiring your brain to view women differently, to view like all that differently, it takes a lot of time. Like it takes years. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, and and that could be for anything. I'm just it's just something I've dealt with personally. But like, you know, what what whatever it may be, like if you're if you're if you're extremely negative all the time and you only see the worst outcomes and everything, it's gonna take time to rewire your brain, yeah, to to be able to see that that like there is hope in the midst of the bad, right? And that and that just because something now I'm not saying be naive, but I'm saying just because something can happen doesn't mean it will. Yes, you know, um and so like those are things that I've that I I think is important because a lot of those things when the storm comes, if you're not kind of staying on top of that, they'll show themselves. You may not notice them when things are great. Yes, but like you're not you may not notice the cracks in the foundation when things are when things when there's no wind and no water, but then all of a sudden your your basement's filling up with water, you're like, oh crap, what do I do? Yeah and then that's and that again, that's not the time to try to fix it. It's really that's the that's when it's like, okay, we're in crisis mode. Yeah, kind of some.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Yeah, for me, um, you know, you reminded me of something, and um, you know, I've brought this up before, maybe even when we've talked, you know, offline about this. Sure. But um, you know, I uh early uh in my 20s, right? Um, you know, you'd at work you take like a self-assessment, like a Myers Briggs or some type of you know, personality test. And uh I've always been an introvert. Um most people would not think of me as an introvert, you know, and I would always lean introvert. Um, you know, I would always rather be alone, you know, or doing my own thing than in a crowd and all these things. But I I realized that like my ministry and my ability to um effectively carry out the gospel mandate was going to be hindered by m me being an introvert. Um not that there's anything wrong with being, you know, you're gonna be wired the way the way you are. Yep, yep. But but I knew that if I could uh relate more to people or if I could put myself there, put myself out there in uncomfortable situations and stumble my way through it, you know. But if I kept doing that over and over and over again, then it would become more comfortable and it would change me. And it has changed me. Yeah. Um, and um, you know, so I've taken those self-assessment type tests, yeah, uh, you know, even as uh as long ago as 10 years ago. And now I'm slightly introverted in the way that I score on those tests. And there's no way I would be running a game night. Yeah, that's a that's a very extroverted thing. Yeah, there's no way I would be like serving coffee. Yeah. Like if I just was doing what I would naturally want to do. Yeah. Um, but what I found is that by taking those risks, I realized that um, you know, it allows me to be less caught up in my own kind of world and just kind of insulating and just worrying about my family only. And I'm actually able to listen to like the needs of other people. Sure. And I've I've seen where God has put uh you know me in places where I've been able to let's say share my story or encourage somebody or minister them because I wasn't just you know hiding or leaving right after church on a Sunday and all these other things. Um, and so that's been a big shift that I've seen. So to your point about, you know, it does take a long time for those things to to change. Yeah, you know, for me, that is part of that, you know, renewal of your mind. Um, just like with a sin that you're trying to overcome or a deficiency or a way that you feel like, okay, I'd really love to be used in this way, but I I don't have this or that and the other thing. Sure. I think working towards putting yourself out there and taking some of those risks um can really help change those things if you're willing to to do that and hopefully overcome the fear and trust God through that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Well, that's that that that you know giving authority to Christ. Like at some point you have to surrender that addiction or or surrender your even just surrender your preference. Yeah. Your preferences. Like just because you like or you prefer to do something in some way doesn't mean you like what makes you think you've earned like why are you why are you entitled to said preference?

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Yeah, why are you at the final authority or something?

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Yeah, like like where does that where does that, you know, and I'm guilty of that. Like, oh I don't I don't want to talk to them. Maybe maybe you should. Yeah. And I mean, I'm I yeah, like I'm I'm a great offender of that because sometimes I get, you know, you say you just get kind of get caught up in um in your own world. That it's it's sometimes it's it's easy to kind of and I and I think like all of these things, this this this giving authority to Christ in that is is it allows it allows you and frees you to build the foundation properly and to maintain it because you're not always like because if I whatever you give yourself to, like whatever you set your face to, that's what you're gonna move towards. And so I think in all of this, like all these things, because but yeah, if your foundation is not stable, not only does it, when the storm comes, you're gonna it's gonna crumble, but it's also not gonna allow you to, like you're saying, carry out the great commission that we've all been called to do. Yeah. It's also not gonna, you're gonna you're gonna be a worse husband, you're gonna be a worse wife, you're gonna be a worse sister, a brother, etc., a friend. Like if the if the if you're always like you know worried about tipping over because you're not stable, yeah, how are you gonna be able to hold hold somebody else, you know? Yeah, and um and I think that's that's a big that's a big thing for this, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Well, and you know, you said it too, like, you know, um letting Christ be the authority. You know, if you do that, then that means you're not the authority. And and there's a relief in that because it's a weight off. Yeah, and and you know, my wife will tell you, like, early in our marriage, you know, I would also let my preferences based on the way I was raised in the very, you know, the kind of churches I was raised in, I I would often think that if somebody else didn't have the same preference as me, that they were wrong and I was right, or they were sinning and I wasn't. Yeah. Right. And so I would use that as a as basically as I would assign, you know, moral attribution to a person based on where they met my standard.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

You know, and I don't do that now because I realize that like God's standard is so high that, you know, the verses say, right, that even our righteousness compared to his holiness's like dirty rags, right? Yep. Um, and so rather than me trying to think that that I am somehow the world's greatest authority on my pref Christian preferences, um, I realize that, you know, the Holy Sp it it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict us and to and to show us areas that we need to change, areas we need to improve in, and you know, God is very patient with us, and God knows that, you know, it's going it's a journey. We're supposed to be become more and more and more like Christ, sure. Right. And we're all on a different part of that journey. And so, like, who am I to think that I have enough self-righteousness in me that I can point out flaws in my fellow brothers and sisters? Um, and so that is definitely a journey that God's taken me on. Right. Um, and Meredith can attest to that, yeah, yeah, you know, because I'm a very different person in those areas than I was uh when you know 20, 20 years ago we first got married, 25 now.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yeah, yeah, and uh it's it's easy to fall into that trap, and you know, when you're always worried about other people's foundations and not your own. Yeah, you know, uh like I think that's something that that we can because I mean event uh like you I think you mentioned this earlier. Like bottom line for me with all of this is that obviously we know what Christ's commands for us were as believers, as followers of Jesus. We know that he's called us to, you know, make disciples of all nations, right? We've that's very clear. And so for us to be effective in that mission, the Satan's gonna attack you the most at your foundation to try to rock you and not be effective, and he's gonna consume you with things that you know, situations that maybe you've put yourself in because you weren't stable, or maybe stuff life just happens to you and you're and and you're not stable enough to handle it, and so then then you become ineffective. Yeah, you know, um like we were talking before the pod about um conference this weekend, like that we came back from as a staff, and you know, there was uh it was very it was very personal for me, more than it was like church focused, yeah, if that makes sense. Like yeah, yeah. Not that it wasn't ministry focused, but it was very much like personal things, and and they were there's a big focus on on you, not your church. Yeah. You know, this is a conference for ministry leaders. So everybody there was a pastor or work in church or something. So, but it was the focus was on you as the as the leader, as the person, because we know that that affects your ministry. Yeah. And if that's not right, then this isn't. And that applies to all of us, whether you work at Best Buy, at an office building, in church, whatever. It if you're not right with Jesus and your relationship with Christ is not good and it's not stable, you're not gonna be effective at your you're not gonna be effective anything. Yeah, you may be able to fake it for a while, you may be able to white knuckle it for a while, you may be able to grit through it for a while, but eventually the cracks will show and the building's gonna crumble.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

And so I say that from someone who's been there, done that, and someone who still struggles, don't let it get to that point. It's it's just not it's not worth it. It's so much better to maintain and walk 10 feet back to where you've where you drifted from as opposed to a mile.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

A mile back, yeah. No, I I mean I think I think that's every Christian's sort of journey. I mean, you know, I I I'm constantly like trying to get as close to the line as possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I keep on going one way or the other. And um, I think that that, like you said, the problem is can you identify quickly enough how when you when you've deviated far enough? Yeah. Um, and I think you know, that's one of the things like we see in David in some of the you know verses and psalms and things that we read um as part of the study. But um, you know, David was really great at like realizing there was an issue and immediately like repenting and trying to get back. Yeah. You know, and uh in spite of some horrific decisions that he made, yeah. I mean it brought them really along the way.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Some debaucherous things. Yes. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Um and so, you know, and yet like I think that's you know, that is our nature. You know, we're in this broken world, we have this sinful human nature. Yeah, um, it's gonna happen, but the faster we can try to like get back to the foundation, the faster we can try to identify the the way we can hopefully put things in place that help us identify when we're going off course. And again, I think that goes back to the accountability. It goes back to uh some, you know, um uh someone was saying, I think it was in a Connect group, about um, you know, the feeling they had when they first uh accepted Jesus as their savior, right? And the passion they had, the overwhelming desire to like share with everybody around them, you know, that experience. And so they would often look at that to say, like, do I still have that same feeling? You know, it's like, have I lost my first love kind of thing, you know, situation. There's a song about that. Yeah, there is. Um is it called first love? Yeah. It is. Um small world. Um, but yeah, I think a part of it is like again, looking in the past to say, you know, do I feel like I am am I in the same uh level of fellowship with God as I was in the past? And if the answer is no, okay, well, how do I how do we get back there? Let's take some action. Get back to good, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I agree. I think you can pray for discernment, pray for God to sh to reveal himself to you, pray for self-awareness. Those things I pray for a lot, because you know, it helps you keep track of your things. And I think I think that's that's the best way to probably maintain that foundation.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

And and it's it always it shouldn't amaze me, because you know, I know we believe in a supernatural God, right? But it amazes me how like I will go into prayer knowing the things I need to confess. Yep. And inevitably I will be reminded during my prayer of something else that I also need to ask forgiveness for. Oh, there's also that thing. That I had no I like was completely out of my mind that the Holy Spirit brought back. Yep. You know, just bec yeah, and so uh, you know, I always think like, boy, when you when you think that you have just got it all together, um, just spend some time in the word, you know, spend some time in prayer, and you will very soon realize that uh you are really missing the march. Yep. Um and and the great thing about that is in spite of that, you know, we are in the heirs of the kingdom just like Jesus. And that that's when then that gratitude of because of his great love for us, like how how then should we not, you know, act in a way that he how how how can we not obey his commands when we've been given so much and forgiveness so much and stuff. So um I just I you know, my my goal is I wish I could remember that and and and uh believe that every single day. Um uh because that's the that's the hard part.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Yep. Well that's I I got nothing else. That's it. That's where we would end it. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you.