Fully Known and Fully Loved

In this episode, Paul and CJ explore the powerful tension of being fully known and fully loved by God. Even in the depth of our sin and brokenness, God’s love remains constant and unchanging. Together, they unpack what it means to approach Him with honesty and confidence, wrestle with the reality of grieving God, and discover how this truth reshapes our worship, relationships, and daily walk with Him.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to At the Table, a podcast from Quest Fellowship Church. In each episode, we explore how faith intersects with real life, how we navigate culture, community, and personal growth as followers of Jesus. These are just conversations, not conclusions, and space to simply think deeply, listen well, and walk in this journey together. We hope you enjoy today's show.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

All right, so today uh I'm Paul. This is my friend CJ. Uh, we're on the pastoral team here at Quest. So today we're going to talk a little bit about the the deep abiding love of God, which is a crazy, uh, a crazy topic in light of our sin. It's kind of like how do we how do we reconcile our minds around the idea that God can see us fully and completely. We're fully known by this God who's pure and righteous in every way. Like we're fully known in all of our sins, all of our faults, all of our failings, and yet we are fully loved. And kind of the balance of that. Um, someone start off by reading uh a passage from Lamentations chapter three, verses uh 19 through 25 to kind of get our conversation going here. Um, remember my affliction and my wanderings, the wormwood and the gall. My soul continually remembers it and is bowed down within me. But this I call to mind, and therefore I have hope. The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never come to an end. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness. The Lord is my portion, says my soul, therefore I will hope in him. The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him. Man, what a what an interesting passage, kind of very very poetic, but this idea that um remembering our afflictions and our wanderings. Yeah. You know, talking about like when the when the when our wayward soul chooses its own path, chooses the path of our flesh as opposed to the the path of God, right? And his soul continually remembers it and is bowed down within. Wow. Um what does it mean for us to be bowed down within based on our sin? It's crazy, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:15

I think it's like the you know, when you you're so broken that you're broken within your where you are, and it's like God is like almost still, He loves you even in that. And when I think about that thought of how much He truly loves me, and the in the messes that I've created, the messes I've made, the things that I've done or what have you, but still He loves me because it's like my soul, He didn't say His His physical being, he said His soul. His soul, yeah. It's like when you think about that, he said, remember, my soul continually remembers it and it's bowed down because it's like almost playing over and over again. Like, man, God, I'm not worthy of any of this. I'm not worthy to see the sun. He says, like the he says, like the his mercy is new every every morning. Come his mercy never come to an end. They are new every morning. Great. Is your the sun's gonna rise every day? Yeah, you know what I mean? And it's it's reminds me of how how much I um so unworthy of what God can do for me. You know what I mean? Like it's like a father that that loves his child. We're more broken, like I said a few minutes ago. We're more broken than we can admit, and we're more loved than we can be imagined. We can imagine. When I think about that, it's like, wow, God.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking about the the beautiful imagery of the every morning, like indicates you're coming out of the night. Right. You know, and it's this uh it's it's almost like God gave us the rhythm of the light and the dark, the day and the night to remind us of like the dark night of our sin, the dark night of our flesh, and then the but the morning is there, like there's always the sun coming up, there's always a newness in in our relationship with God. But it's also interesting that from a new covenant, new per New Testament perspective, like we're called to deny ourselves daily. Right, right. So it's kind of like we get up in the morning and we deny ourselves, and then we receive the new mercies of God. Yeah, yeah. You know, coming out of whatever it is that we've done, whatever it is that we've however it is we've failed God, because we're gonna fail them every single day. Right. Um and to just understand the weight of that, um the the song we ended this run to the father idea we ended our last service with, and in that it talks about we have no context for this kind of love. We have no sense of really being able to put that in a human perspective that we can continually be wronged and yet we keep coming back with him. Keep coming back, man. That's crazy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 4:33

I was thinking about what you said and you read that Lamentations, that verse 24, and I know the Lord is my portion. He says saves my soul. Therefore, I will hope in him. It's like I I I know I'm dependent upon the portion of what Christ, what God gives me. You know, it's nothing I can do on my own. And I just keep going back to that part about the he's not talking about his physical, his soul is saying this. It's like, and even when we do wrong, something should be it should be convicted to me to say, remember my afflictions and my wanderings, the wormwood and the gall. It's like that, that it was like the judgment, the wormwood and gall was like that bitterness. It was a bitter thing, but his soul continually remembers it and bowed down within because I know what I'm what I'm capable of, I know what I'm lacking in. Right. And it's like, God, you still are faithful to me in the midst of all that I've I've I've messed up and done over and over again. He's new every morning, man. That that came out.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

Every single morning, you know. I think um when I read that as I was thinking about what we might talk about today, that that verse 24, the Lord is my portion. Yes, uh, I was thinking back to when uh the Israelites, you know, they completed the conquest, and if you read the story of Samson, um they were living in Mahanadan, which was the camp of Dan, is where his his tribe was. In other words, they hadn't settled, they hadn't received the portion that God had for them in the promised land. And he went down to Timnah, the scripture says, Yeah, and the the name Timnah literally means allotted portion. So like they weren't actually living in their allotted portion. Um, and so a lot of times I feel like we're in the same thing, like we're uh the the full portion of God's love, like that the Lord is our portion, like we we we reserve, we stay in the camp, right, and we don't want to fully do the work to of the conquest to fully surrender and root out all the stuff that needs to be rooted out so that we can actually reside in Jimnah, as opposed to like going to have to visit the allotted portion. Yeah, that's good. But if he if he is our portion, like that the love of God to come and to be willing to say, you know what, like you're you're really not that great, but I'm gonna send my son to die on a cross for you. For you. And then I'm gonna raise him up. So in him, like that's what that passage in Romans was talking about in Romans chapter 5, 6 through 11, that we got on our notes here. But like the I'm gonna I'm gonna read it because I think it's it's a beautiful picture of not just the death of Christ, but also the life of Christ. Like the to be part of our portion. Um, Romans 5, 6 through 11, for while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one, and that's all of us. It's not like it's one of two, that's picking and choosing. Yeah, it's it's everybody. Right. Um, for one will scarcely die for a righteous person, though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die. But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his son, much more now that we are reconciled shall we be saved by his life. And I think a lot of times we forget that piece of it, you know. Yes. Um, more than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Yeah, man, that's just a beautiful picture of what the gospel fully is. Um so how do you how do you see that, like the the imagery of what this passage is saying? What's Paul talking about in related to in relationship to the the wrath of God, the the covering that we have, but also not just the death, but also the life of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

I think it's interesting two things he said first in eight, but verse eight, but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, he still died for us. It's almost like I'm I'm look visualizing the picture of him being on the cross, looking out. And so Father, he says, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they're doing. And it's like even in that moment, right, he's still thinking about not just those before him, he's talking about all the way out from time to time, but he still loves us enough that he's he's standing in a gap because he loves us that much that even though we're enemies of him, he still loves, chooses to love us. Right. And it's like that first part you said, for while we were still we still we were still weak at the right time, Christ died for the ungodly. You know what I mean? And and that's not just first century, it's not just that century, it's it's all the way through time. And I feel like sometimes we we we we downplay the cost or really means how much love he really has for us. We downplay it, and it's like when I when I continue to do and mess around in sin, when I continue to do the wrong things and expect God to just continue to say, you know what, you yeah, it's okay, you just just check the box, you'll be fine. No, but it's really something that he said, like in Lamentations, he said, My soul, my soul, but this I call to mind, if I have hope the steadfast of the Lord never ceases, his mercies they are new every morning. The Lord is my portion, says, My soul, therefore I hope in him. But guess what? I can't hope in something that I don't really know. I can't hope in something that I've never really experienced. You know what I mean? And if I don't know what that love looks like or how it is, it's almost like, you know, I can say I love my wife, I can say I love my children, but how do I show that? Is it through our word action or just through my words or what I'm saying? And this right here is the true testament of how he did he did that for us. I think for me it's it's it's the visual of how he says, if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son, much more now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life? Am I saved by his life? Have I been saved by has God do I really understand what am I fully known that really that he loved me that much that even though I was just a a mess in certain things, situations I messed up, that he still continues to love me, man. I mean, I I don't know. I just yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

Yeah, I think if we're all honest, we can look back on the story of our life and have so many moments of regret where we know that a loving God looked at us and we were probably very unlovable to him in that moment. And yet there was still love, you know. Um I think it's it's hard to understand. I mean, maybe maybe we can put it in the context of a of a parent to a child, and as a grandparent now, like I don't I don't really know there's anything my granddaughter or my grandson can do to make me not love him. But um, I mean it's possible, I guess. Yeah, you know, but it's the reality of you know, you can be dissatisfied with people in your life, and you can be frustrated, but the love is something that abides. Yep. But to go to a whole nother level to say, you're not really part of my family. Yeah. I don't owe you anything, and you've wronged me, and now I'm gonna choose to die for you. Yeah, that's good right there. I mean, that's wild.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Man, that's so good.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

We don't have any context for that. That's like like the psalmist says, we don't we don't have the comprehension of being able to understand that, like, because we were we were enemies of God. We were saved from the wrath of God.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:50

And the wrath is reserved for sin.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

So, Paul, let me ask you, do you think that just that, like we're trying to I'm trying to wrap my mind around, wrap my mind around the fact that I've grieved God, but I've still fully love, live in the love that He loves me and that He's offering to me. Is it able to say, Am I able to say I couldn't clean, I can't clean myself up to come to Him, but that's the but really I come because I can't clean myself up. I can't do anything except get into His presence because I know that I'm when I really understand what it means to be loved by Him, I know that I got I have to come to Him because I I can't do it in my own power. And I feel like we missed that that part about that Um in Romans 5, which you just read so so um expressively. Um He says, for one will scarcely die for a righteous person, though perhaps for a good person, one would dare even to die. But God shows His love for us in that while we were still sinners, man. I keep I keep going back to that part, man, because it's like there's no one, there's no everybody has sinned.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

And everybody will sin. And everybody will sin. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

And and and and in that, that knows that okay, regardless of who I am, I have an opportunity. He it's across the board, even. The standard is all across the board that I can come out of where I am, I can come out of that because if I'm fully known by God, if I'm fully known by Christ, like you said, the context of that song, run to a father. Why am I running to a father? Because I understand what I need.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

Because I'm in desperation. Desperation for what for what I know about myself. Um yeah, I think um love itself is flows out of relationship and creates relationship. Like, you know, you you're not really gonna be in a deep relationship with somebody unless there's love involved in some way. You know, I mean there's people in your life who are acquaintances of yours. Right, right. You don't really have any you don't have love for them. Just get to know outside. Yeah, but there's there's family people. Right. There's people that when they tell you something that is gone sideways in their life, like it breaks your heart. Yeah. Um, and I think that's the thing with God is that He sees every single human being that has ever lived, and every single single human being that will live all at the same time. Right. And he knows every single one of them is gonna fail him. Right. Still loves us. I mean, there's what, eight billion people almost on the face of the planet right now. Yes. And I don't know how many people have lived the whole existence of humanity, and how many people will live before Jesus returns and the sun burns out and all that kind of stuff happens. But all of those people, like he sees it all at the same time, and Jesus still went to the cross. For all of that rebellion, from for being wronged so much. Right. So much, man. Like there the the love that took that it takes to do that is is a love that um unfathomable is really yeah, unfathomable is a great word. Like it's a it's it we can't fathom it. No. It's not it's not we're not able to truly understand it. Um and I think some for some of us um it's easy to love deeply the people that we love, like the people that are in relate that we're in relationship with. Um and hopefully, because of that love, we can we can take what God has done for us and uh and unapplied at least in some way. Yeah. You know, um, because we are so deeply loved, even in our wrong. You know, can we deeply love those who have wronged us? Can we can we pass that on in some way? That's hard though, innit?

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yeah, it is very much so, man. I was thinking about John 15, um, verses 7 through 10. He says, If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. By this my father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. This is Jesus talking to disciples. He's saying, I'm loving you because my father loves me. He loves me, and I'm showing you the same. I'm the outward manifestation of this love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my father's commandments and abide in his love. And I'm I don't know I'm thinking about that and I'm thinking, how many times have I messed that? How many times have I missed that? Uh that outward manifestation of how he loves me. And am I really, am I really abiding in his love? Am I really abiding in the fact that who Christ really is in those moments when, say, I don't know if it's if it's that stranger that I might not really feel so so good about, or is it if it's my wife, or if it's my children? I mean, do I do I show the same standard across the board? No, I don't always. But the thing is, he does, no matter who we are, right? He says, if you abide in me, and my words abide in you. So how do I do that? And I think that's that part about having to stay connected to him.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Yeah. Stay connected. I mean, the whole vine and the branches imagery is beautiful. Um in those, I think it's 11 verses, Jesus uses the word abide ten times. Like it's uh it's a sense of, and I think the word bear is used six times. So it's this idea that if you abide, you're connected for the purpose of bearing fruit. Um but abiding is is literally like taking up residence, yeah. Setting down roots. You know, it's kind of like that back to that whole, are you living in the camp or are you in your allotted portion? Right. And I think to truly abide, to set down roots, to feel like you belong somewhere. Um that's a that's a commitment level that a lot of times we don't we don't want to we don't want to truly abide in Jesus. Right. We want to pass through. Yeah. Yeah. Don't want to let people know who you who do I really want to let them in. Right. Like, do I do I really want to go that deep? Yeah. Do I really want to make that that level of surrender? Do I want to, you know, totally give myself on a every single day basis to this, you know?

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Kind of like what you were talking about in the sermon that you just preached about. Am I willing to on the on the on the corner, am I coming, put myself on the stone. Is it is it gonna crush me or am I gonna fall on it? You know, it's like, do I really think about how much am I how much is it gonna cost me? I think that's that's where it is. I really want you to know me. If I really want you to know me, I gotta let you know who I am.

SPEAKER_03 18:03

Yeah, and some of us are more quick to do that than others. Some people are. Um Some people tell you too much. Straight up right in right in your first conversation. Hey man, I wouldn't have told me that. Yeah, let me just go for you. Um But I mean, ultimately, the best relationships get to that place. You know, where where like there's okay, there's really nothing you don't know about me, you know. Yeah. Um and there's I'm not hiding anything. Right. Um that's good. But I think also in those relationships as well, like you you get to a place where you can communicate with a look. Yeah. Or like people that care about me like can look at me, even though I'm pretty much stone faced a lot. Yeah, man. Poker face. But people that really know me can sense like they just kind of you know, and that's after a while, like you just kind of when you're spend time with people, you invest with people, you it it and so the question for us, I think, as um followers of Jesus is do we do we know that look from him? Like are we are we able to perceive? Right. Like are we able to discern because of we're we're abiding so deeply. Right, right. Like we're not passing through. Like we we've settled in, we've nestled in, like we're we're here for the good, we're here for the bad, we're here for whatever. Um and you know, have we have we truly understood what it meant for Jesus to see the arrow coming and to stand in front of us, that's good and to take it. Yeah. Um to take billions of arrows, and just stand there. Trillions of arrows, and just stand there, yeah, and to take it. Like that to me is there again, incomprehensible, unfathomable, yeah. Um but it's beautiful. Yeah. And I think the more that we can reflect on that, then then the greater chance we have of you know being a blessing to those that we love and and those that we want to be able. I mean, as as people who stand up and preach, you know, I I don't think I don't I don't know that I've done um as good a job as I wish I could of explaining this concept that we're trying to talk about today. Because it's really just hard to put into words.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

I was thinking about what you just said about the arrows and how trillion trillions of arrows and he stood there and he takes that. And then I was thinking about just even that the example of like you said, the layered approach of how we are with people letting people inside. We don't really you know, it takes time, it does, it takes time, and like you said, some people give too much information. But then what about those that don't give any information? And they just kind of you know what I mean? It's like I'm I'm good on Sunday, I come into the church and then I go back out, but I don't really want to let you know what's really going on behind the closed doors. It's like, you know, you see the you see the door, you see the house, looks like it's outside, but inside. But see, but God, he wants Christ wants to come and he wants to see all of that. He wants to see everything behind. He already sees what's behind the wall.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

He knows it, so why?

SPEAKER_03 21:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

So he see like like when he was dealing with the Pharisees, he said, You said you guys think you're so pretty on the outside, but right inside you're just like you know, dead men's bone. Dead man's bone. I mean, you know, outside the cup looks beautiful. Inside the cup nasty. Uh a cup you wouldn't want to drink out of. Yeah. So yeah, it's like you're saying, he sees it all. Yep. Like, what are you hiding? Like, what do you what are you trying to hide? You know, you can come in here and you can pose to at church on a Sunday, you can pose in your relationships. But man, at some point, the real you is gonna be seen and revealed and exposed. Take the veil off. Yeah, and and a lot of times that's that's not a pleasant experience. Like the more we can uh be open and honest, to me, like you know, one of the questions we had like to think about today was how does this understanding of this love of God, this to be fully known by God in our sin and to be fully loved? Like how how does that live into A life of worship is kind of our theme for the year as a church, is like what is what does it mean to live a life of worship. Right. Um, and I think what to me I take a I take away from that is if if I understand how much God knows about me and has still loved me anyway, yeah, um, then the life of worship means that in my relationships, in in the the many ways in which I interact with people as a as a pastor, as a leader in the church, as somebody who lives in the community, as somebody who's a husband and a father and a grandfather and a son and a brother and all that kind of stuff, like is are my relationships reflective of my understanding of the love that I've been given. Yeah. You know, um, because if you live in a relationship with somebody, they're gonna hurt you.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 22:44

That's and most times they're gonna hurt you.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

At some point. Most of the time.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Most of the time.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

They're gonna hurt you sometimes. They're gonna hurt you sometimes. Yeah, you know, I mean, they're gonna hurt you at some point. And I think that that the question is though, with that, how how am I gonna what am I gonna how am I gonna respond? You know, am I gonna respond like that new mercy, like he did in Lamentations? Right. New mercy every day. Is it is it gonna, like you said, the light and dark, is it gonna, am I gonna come back again and say, you know what, God, you are the example of this. And he wants us to be, he, if he he knows how much I fall short and I fail, am I will am I really willing to um, if I really think about that, the weight of that, the weight of what he really gives up, man? It's like, okay. And I know that, you know, in most relationships it's funny because you think, you know, you think you really fully known and you loved, but when till till heat comes, and when the heat comes, what are you gonna do in those moments? Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Do you melt? What do you melt? Does the relationship just fall apart the first sign of stress or conversation?

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Because Christ doesn't do that. He didn't do that. Right. You know what I mean? He does, he, he loves us even though he knows we're we're messing up, even though as many times I've messed up, I can speak clearly. But and even in, you know, as a as one of the pastors here at the church, but it's like, God, you know, am I, how am I relating to people? Am I like you're talking about worship, considering my ways? Am I considering my ways of how I need to be? Um, at am I am I allowing um the love of Christ to be seen through my actions and what I do, not just in my house, right, but outwardly, you know.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

I yeah. Are we trying to live this life with limited mercies? Limited oof. Or are we trying to live it with an unending bucket bucket of mercies? Are our are our mercies for other people new every single day? That's good. Um because we're gonna need them every day.

unknown 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Um if we're gonna live a life of worship that's gonna honor the one who has given us new mercies every single day. I think to be fully known uh is humbling. Yeah. Yeah. Um that every single thing I think, every single thing I do, um, I love the scripture, it talks about you know, taking every thought captive. Yes. You know, and as much as we try to do that, there's some that are gonna get away from us. We're not gonna be able to capture them all. Um but God knows all those. Yes, yeah. He's seen them all. He sees it. He knows He knows stuff, He knows sin that I'm gonna commit that I even committed yet. Yeah. And all of that was on his mind and on his heart when Jesus went through the cross at the right time. Right there at the right time. You know. Um, and so it's beautiful to think about that, to be able to say, man, I am I am so known, and that feels so exposing, right? That feels so uncomfortable. Um, but his mercies are new every day. Yeah, and so it takes a daily commitment from us to receive that, I think, to live that life that's gonna reflect that to others that we can. Um, even in people that we don't fully know, but we don't have to fully know them. Right. We just have to know that we're fully known, and then their mercies should flow from us as they flow to us. That's good.