SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to At the Table, a podcast from Quest Fellowship Church. In each episode, we explore how faith intersects with real life, how we navigate culture, community, and personal growth as followers of Jesus. These are just conversations, not conclusions, and space to simply think deeply, listen well, and walk in this journey together. We hope you enjoy today's show.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

All right. We have Alec here with us today. Alec is our Q student, Q56 director. So he spends a lot of time with fifth, sixth, seventh through twelfth graders. Shameless plug for Q56 on Sunday mornings at 11:30. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Come check it out. Yep. If you're in fifth or sixth graders, only fifth and sixth graders.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Yeah. And then students is Sunday nights. Yep. At 5. I was going to say 5:30. It's for 7th through 12th. Yeah, 7th through 12th graders. A lot of cool stuff happening there. So thanks for coming and chat. And we're going to talk about kindness. And we've been in the Fruit of the Spirit series. It's kind of hard to like really dive into what each of these kind of practically looks like after you've, you know, taken all the information in, read all the scripture, and then you're like, okay, now what do I actually do with all of this? Um in real life. And so we're going to talk about kind of all kinds of things. Um, but before we do that, why do you think people have the view of kindness that they have that's sort of like a worldly view of kindness?

SPEAKER_02 1:24

I feel like excuse me, sorry. I feel like a lot of people have this misconception about kindness where they correlate kindness and niceness to be the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

That being kind is being polite. It's shaking someone's hand. And when they say, Hi, hey, hey, how are you doing? You say, Good, I'm great. How are you? And you just kind of move on your way. Um, whereas kindness, it's not niceness.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And I think it kind of like roots in most of the time our childhood, like, be nice, do the nice thing, be kind, be nice to your friends. But like, how often do we say be kind to your friends? And you know, um, I think we were talking about like manners. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Growing up, my mom, she was a huge stickler for this idea that you can't have your elbows on the table while you're eating dinner.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

That was a big no-no. And so anytime that we would just pull our pull up pull our elbows up on the table, my mom would either comment on it, or if she sits next to you, she'd push your elbow all casual, like off the table. And so this idea of having good manners and that that was polite, that was nice at the dinner table. But at no point would anyone look at me and be like, wow, Alec, your table, your your elbows aren't on the table. You're you're so kind. How kind of you're talking about? Yeah, how kind of you.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Yeah, and I think it's like an aesthetic thing.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Like a um It's cosmetic.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Yeah, it kind of again, that rooted idea of what it means to be nice, or as we get get it confused, kind, is rooted in like, how am I presenting? Right. How am I how is this looking to somebody? So, like to your point about you know, in c in conversation, someone walks by and says, How are you? It's not nice to be like to just start dumping, you know, like um and it's it's uncomfortable and it's weird. And so there's like, yeah, it's a cosmetic thing that we we kind of start from that place of like, oh, it it doesn't look kind or it doesn't look nice. Um we're gonna talk about what all the different ways kind can look. Um but pe speaking of that being uncomfortable, um, like what do you think is really the part that's that's hard for people in in true authentic kindness and not just cosmetic niceness? Like, why is that hard?

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Yeah, I think you kind of already touched on it a little bit, like with the idea of being nice being a presentation. It's how we carry ourselves, how we treat other people now. That doesn't mean that being nice is bad. Right. Yeah, you can be nice, still be nice, still have good manners. Maybe don't put your elbows on the table. But I think when it comes to actually being kind, that opens us up to a lot of vulnerability. Right? If I'm gonna, you know, express kindness to somebody, I'm gonna do a kind act for somebody, if I'm gonna carry myself with kindness, that's very vulnerable because it lets people see into you a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

But in addition to that, like, I don't know about you, but there's been times in my life where I've expressed kindness to somebody, I've gone out of my way to do something for somebody. And it is either, you know, not it's not gone out the way I thought it would. I think a lot of times people weaponize kindness, um, but more like in a lack of kindness, saying, Oh, yeah, this person's wronged me, so you know, I'm not gonna go out of my way to help them. I'm not gonna go out of my way to be kind because they don't deserve it. Yeah. Which we can get into a little bit more of that uh in a little bit. But I think that it come all comes back down to that thing I said a second ago about vulnerability.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

That you know, they may not receive it the way you want them to. And we as imperfect people, we want to be seen. We want to be, uh, we want to get our attaboys, we want to get pat on the head. Yeah. And when we express kindness and it's not received how we think it should be received, yeah, it can be difficult for us to continue going back to it.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah, like there's almost like a there's no reward in it a lot of times. And like who wants worldly, like who wants to sign up for that? You know, like through this with no reward. Um, but I think it's comes from like a proper understanding of our own, use the word deserve, um, like our own place with Christ and and the fact that we don't deserve any of the kindness given to us. Um, and and so looking at Jesus, aside from the fact that he died on the cross for us, and that was like ultimate, yeah, you know, obviously kindness. Um, and and yeah. How do you think that we can look at Jesus as a model of kindness? Because I've kind of been doing my own reading through like the gospels, and there's so many different interactions that he has. Like, not everyone is the same, but all of Jesus' interactions are kind.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Um, so what do you think we can do to look at him as a model for kind of I mean it's gonna sound kind of silly when I first say this, but it's as simple as looking at his actions, looking how he treated people. Like we see the example of Jesus throughout all the gospels, of him healing people, of then letting children come to him, of him challenging his disciples, of him challenging the people he's teaching, him challenging the religious leaders of the day, and he did all of it with kindness and he didn't expect anything in return. Yeah, it wasn't, okay, yeah, Mr. Leopard Man, I see that you're, you know, really sick right now. And I'll tell you what, for one payment of 1995, I'll heal you.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

No, he he he just healed him.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

And he just expressed kindness in the way that he carried himself. But I think a really important thing for us to note about Jesus' behavior is he was kind, yes. But he wasn't always nice.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

And I think that there's this misconception uh floating around that we always have to be nice to people when we're kind to them. Like the idea of being kind implies niceties.

SPEAKER_03 6:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Whereas like we were talking about this the other day and you were saying like the idea of having a piece of lettuce in your teeth.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

It's it would it's not nice for me to be like, yo, Abigail.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Yo, you know, disgusting. Yeah, you're you're you look disgusting right now. Yeah, that's not nice.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

No.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

But there is a way to call attention to that and be kind. Whereas it's still gonna be a little bit like uncomfy.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Yeah, yeah. And it I think it's kind and also wanting me to not walk around all day looking like that. Like you don't want that for me, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:12

And we can ex we can expand that out to more than just a minor cosmetic problem. We can do that into our friends' actions or our friends' choices or how they're carrying themselves. We can be uh willing to hold them accountable, yeah, is kindness, even though it's uncomfortable, even though it feels icky or weird sometimes to call someone out. But we can do that in a loving way that expresses kindness instead of with false niceties. Yeah. Because if I'm acting like a fool, I don't want you to come up to me and be like, oh wow, Alec, that's really cool. Ha ha ha ha. I want you to be able to say, Alec, we all do what's going on with you because you're acting kind of like an idiot right now.

SPEAKER_03 7:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Or hey, I know this isn't you, so what are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 7:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

And I think that's a good phrase. That aspect of kindness is often overlooked because it's uncomfortable. Yes. And we just assume that if we're gonna be kind, we're gonna be nice.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Right. Yeah. And I think looking at Jesus and all those different interactions, yeah, he said the thing that like kind of nobody else was, obviously nobody else was willing to say or was going to say. Um because like adulterous woman, for example, like everyone else had a much different uh response to her than Jesus did. Um so there was a lot of gentleness and kindness in his interactions with her, but also in with the people, with the religious leaders who he's like, y'all need to learn this lesson too. Like this is not just about her. Um, and so in kindness, when we do uh, like you said, hold people accountable, there is a loving, like, I don't want you to continue in this. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Yeah, like it's not, hey man, I really want to just poke at you and I really want to point out all your faults and flaws. It's hey, I know you and I know what you stand on, I know what you believe, and I know who died for you. Yes, and I know you know better. And so, as your friend in as kind a way as possible, yeah, what's going on with you? How can I help you?

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Yeah. And I I think sometimes the going back to the vulnerability piece and like uncomfortable, it's hard for people to do that because especially with you know unbelievers, we don't have that same common ground. Right. And so it can be like you're afraid that people are gonna be like, Well, who are you to to want anything for me or to help me do anything? Like, I'm good, I got this. Um, and so we don't we are nervous about entering into those conversations, or um, yeah, we don't we don't want people to receive that in a way that you know to them may feel really unkind. Um, and so it can be a little intimidating. Um it make kind of makes you feel like, well, I gotta, I gotta have all the answers, I gotta know, all this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

But and that kind of comes back to the idea that kindness costs us something.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Because you know, we were talking about how it's it can it can require us to be vulnerable, but it also can cost us time, it can cost us energy. Or in the example we're talking about right now, it can affect our relationships because you know, maybe me being kind and calling attention to somebody in a way that they're uncomfortable with, or calling them out, calling attention to them and their actions, maybe that's gonna impact the relationship. Yeah, at least for a time. There might be a little bit of head butting. There might be a little if depending on the individual, right? Because obviously you want to receive criticism well, we want to receive accountability well when it's founded in our faith.

SPEAKER_04 10:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

Right? This isn't about my shoes I'm choosing to wear. This is about the actions I'm choosing to do, right? And so it can cost us that. We don't like to be uncomfortable. That's just a fact of us. Yeah, like I want you to think about having a rock in your shoe. Like, that's just awful. No one wants to experience anything close to un to discomfort because we just have such cozy, comfy lives. And so the idea of you know, toying with or playing with our relationships in that way is we can look at it wrong. We can think, oh, you know what? I'm just gonna let them figure it out on their own. Yeah. Because we don't want to have the uncomfortable conversation because we don't think about how that's a kindness.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Yeah, yeah. And we're doing, yeah, you do yourself a disservice and the other person in operating with just niceties, you know, because you're like, well, I just won't say anything, or well, I just I'll just leave it be and we'll but then we all know how that most of the time ends up happening or ends up painting out like And how often do we deflect it?

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Yeah. You know, oh you know what? If I see that, if I see that again, yeah, I'll say something.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

But you know, maybe this isn't a big deal. Oh, maybe if it gets worse, I'll say something. But it's not a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

But the other co side of this coin is we need to be willing to be held accountable as well. We need to be able to receive kindness in that way as well.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Yep. I was gonna say like justice is like a it's an issue for a lot of people, myself included. Um you like you've mentioned, like you feel like, well, they they don't deserve, you know, the extension of my hand, or they don't deserve for me to to go out of my way in kindness. Um, maybe because you have done it over and over again. You know, you have not been quote unquote nice and you have been kind and and been uh calling people out on things or or holding them accountable. And so what do you what do you think about like when you get to a place where you're like justice needs to be served kind of thing?

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Like I've I've done Yeah, that's tough because you know, we were, you know, Genesis tells us we were made in the image of God, right? And so when we look at the characteristics of God, especially if you've gone through foundations, one of the big things we talk about is how God is righteous and how God is just. We were made with a sense of justice.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Like we were supposed to desire justice, we were wired that way.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Yeah, righteousness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

But the problem is we don't have the same morality, the same code of righteousness that God does. Right. Like in our sin, we are flawed. And so when we seek out justice, it's often in our own metrics or in our own way. And that's one of the reasons why these fruit of the spirit is so important. One of the reasons why we need to produce goodness, why pr why we need the spirit to produce goodness in our lives. Because when we act on our own authority, when we act in our own sense of justice, it's flawed, it's sinful, and it's broken.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

And what we can tend to do is we can withhold kindness from people like I was talking about earlier, where we can use it passively. I'm sorry, passive aggressively, right? Like, oh, I see this person has a need or this thing. I I know I could do this. I feel that little voice in the back of my brain saying, hey, go check up on this person, hey, shoot this text, hey, go drop this off.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

But I'm not gonna do that because they deserve this. They don't deserve my kindness.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

And the problem with that logic, with falling into that, is that idea of my kindness.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

I was just getting ready to say the same. I was like, hopefully, Alex is gonna say what I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

I don't have kindness. I'm a petty guy. I I I only kindness I have is produced and grown in me through the power of the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

That's it. And so this idea of withholding that from somebody when you looked at it through that lens is crazy.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

God gave me this kindness, He showed me this kindness by sending His son to die on the cross for me. But because I'm a petty little person, I'm not gonna give this kindness to somebody else. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

It's insane. It is insane. And it's it's hard to like the justice piece when you step out in those kindness things to not seek a an outcome, like to not have the outcome in mind already before you even get step into a conversation. Um, and so drawing on the spirit, even yes, to help help you reach out in kindness, using the spirit's kindness, but also like to to handle what's gonna come after that. Um, because yeah, there might be situations where we we do a good job of drawing and letting the Holy Spirit speak through us and and operating with kindness and the person doesn't respond well.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Um and so even in that we have to to draw on him and say, you know what, I you're gonna carry out, you know, all of this the way that you see fit. Um and and we forget about that sometimes and we wanna sometimes we wanna be like if you're like me, you're like, man, I failed. I didn't I didn't do that right. And it's so quick, it's so easy to go back into the I me kind of thing. Um but like you're saying, it's not it's not our kindness that we can manifest or manufacture. Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

Well, we're we're just utilizing it. We're utilizing what we've been given.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

And if you're going into a situation like this, or if you're looking for opportunities to show kindness to somebody, but in the back of your mind, you're thinking about how this will benefit you. You're thinking about how people will see that you did this and and and you're seeking that praise or validation, even in the back of your head, right? That's fake fruit. Yeah. I talk to students about this all the time. Like the idea of like plastic decorative fruit. Like from a distance, this ban this plastic banana looks like a banana.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

But the closer you get to it, the more you look at it, you can see it doesn't have that same banana look. You pick it up, it doesn't have the same banana feel. And you whack it on the table and it clunks.

SPEAKER_04 15:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

And it's fake. Yeah. And so I think it's really important for us to identify within ourselves to spend time in prayer, spend time with the Lord and figure out if our intentions behind these actions are godly or not.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Yeah, and it's hard to pray. I've I've been in this place, it's hard to pray like, take me out of this. Yeah. Take my selfishness or my fleshly, you know, desires, the justice that I feel like take take that away. It's hard to pray that. It really is. But do I really want to give that to you, God?

SPEAKER_02 16:08

You know, um because as soon as I pray that I kind of have to start doing it.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Right. And then you know, like you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to go into those situations with that kindness. Um, and that's hard because it's just it's there's a war, you know, um, between that and our flesh. And so yeah, those are not easy things to do, um, even when we do really, really wanna do the things that God's calling us to do and and operate in kindness. Um, so like how do you I mean we've we've talked about abiding and that kind of thing, but to people who are like maybe probably listening to this, thinking of a a person or a situation or whatever, like what do you feel like they can do to draw on that kindness? I mean, I mean I just mentioned that type of prayer of like, take me out of this. But I don't know, is there anything that kind of comes to mind that would encourage people, help people to to be able to draw on the spirit's kindness?

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Yeah, I mean, it comes back to the idea that you just mentioned about the abiding, right? The remain in him and I will remain in you, right? And so when you're talking about that, that sounds very poetic. It sounds very like theoretical. When in reality, this is a very nice yeah, it sounds nice and pretty to talk about, but in reality, this is a a literal actual thing. We're being literal here. We're not saying uh this nice fluffiness, we're talking about remaining in the spirit, right? You know, Galatians 5, 26, I think, or 27 says if we keep in step with the spirit, keep in if we walk with the spirit, let us also keep in step with the spirit. So right after the passage about the fruits of the spirit, yeah. This idea that we need to walk with the spirit and keep pace with it. Sometimes that means slow down, sometimes that means speed up, but it means keep in pace.

SPEAKER_03 17:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

And so if we're gonna remain in Christ, that means we need to hear his words by reading his scripture, right? We need to actually take it in. I love our pastoral team, but if that's the only way you're hearing the word of God throughout the week, it is not enough.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Spend time in prayer. One of the big challenges that I've been fine praying on right now is asking God to train my eyes to see what He wants me to see.

SPEAKER_03 18:11

Right, yep.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Because I get so distracted, I get so oblivious to life sometimes that sometimes I know I miss stuff. It's easy to get bogged down the weight of everything going on.

unknown 18:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Train God help me train my eyes to see you.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

The invitation piece is like what I was thinking about too. Like inviting, we sing that song Holy Spirit, you know, sometimes on Sundays.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

Yeah, you're welcome here.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Yeah, but are we actually acting like it? Yeah. And how I mean, outside of singing songs like that, like do you do you have moments throughout your week where you even with conversations, it's been such a huge help for me right before I go into them to stop for two seconds and say, Holy Spirit, help me in this moment. Like it's one phrase that you all you have to do is is pray. And it can be hard, like you're saying, to see it sometimes. But I think there is power in like the repetition. That's why it says walk with him, because it's not just one moment that's gonna change everything, kind of you're gonna continue to continue to do it. Um, you're gonna have to have to keep inviting him in. Um you're gonna have to keep reminding yourself because we're human and we just forget. We we forget the times where he has helped us, where he has come through. Um, and so I think a lot about also reminding ourselves of like God's character, um, just who God is and how that helps us pursue kindness, just thinking about him alone. Um, so what do you think about who j who God is and how does how does that help you produce kindness?

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Uh yeah, that's it's a great question. Is understanding who God is. I actually just did this with foundations last night. Okay. That was a lot of fun. So now if you're listening, you know when we're recording this. Um got him. So this idea that I'm gonna say this and it sounds silly, but God is perfect, right? We like that is a fundamental belief that he is the author of creation and he is perfection, right? And so when we're talking about his goodness, and we're talking about his kindness, we're talking about the perfect embodiment of those things. There's no flaw, there's no issue, there's no change, there's no sin. It's not like our understanding of kindness and goodness. It is perfect and flawless. Can't even really comprehend it's un it's unimaginable, yeah. Like actually and really in a real way. And so this idea that we've been given the Holy Spirit to abide in us. We've been given the power of the Holy Spirit to take with us as we live our lives on this earth, that we have been given perfect kindness. We've been given perfect goodness. And like we were talking about earlier, we are supposed to just utilize it.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

But I can't just pick up a hobby and know how to do it. Right. I can't just, you know, like I'm trying to think of an example, my brain's breaking. I can't crocheting. Yeah, there we go. Crochet's perfect. I'm not gonna pick up whatever you call the little needles and a hook. I'm not gonna pick up a hook and start crocheting masterpieces immediately. It takes repet repetition, it takes practice, and it takes conscious effort. So if you're going about your day not even considering the power that's within you that you've been given, then you're not utilizing it. You're not practicing it. Yeah, yeah, you're not using the gift that's been given to you. If you gave me a new hook and needle and when I because I said I wanted to start crocheting, yeah. This was your choice. You brought it here. And then I just put it on my shelf at home and never used it, never practiced. Then every time it came up to me and said, Hey, Alec, you made anything cool yet? And I'd say no, because crocheting isn't cool. And and it's like it's pointless. Yeah. Why was the gift given in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Well, and I think again, that under proper understanding of what you're drawing from, right? Like, like you're saying, learn the thing, learn Jesus, learn God, and really who they are, so that when you're in moments and you need to pull kindness and you need to pull all the different fruit we've been talking about, that's where it's coming from. And so if you don't, if you don't have a Proper understanding of that's going to be hard to learn it. It's like trying to do something without a manual or like IKEA furniture, you know, like putting that together without any instruction. So I think, yeah, to have a like we talked about, a model. Um, go look at what he did. Go look at what Jesus did. Go look at the way God spoke to his people. Like learn about that. Let that be your source in the moments where you do need to draw your counts.