How Innovation Shapes Transformation - Kandi Gongora

In today’s episode, I chat with Kandi Gongora, Chief Transformation & People Officer at Goodway Group, a NYC-based full-service data-driven digital marketing solutions partner. 

In the 2+ years I’ve known Kandi, from our time together in HackingHR, to her participation at the Global HR Summit - the world’s largest enterprise virtual reality conference - Kandi has always had a passion for learning, behavioural science & innovation. 

Each are foundational elements of successful transformations. 

Together we tackled a lot of fun topics; beginning with her professional journey; how she stitches together experiences in operations, technology & HR to enable transformation at a rapidly-growing digital marketing organization. 

We discuss her firm’s use of virtual reality. Pioneered at the Global HR Summit in 2020 - still, amazingly, over a year later, the largest enterprise business conference ever presented in virtual reality - where Kandi was one of our 60 speakers; participating via VR headset as a panellist from her home just outside of Dallas, Texas, to an audience of over 800; nearly half of which were also in VR headsets. Truly remarkable.

Today, Kandi is piloting the use of virtual reality in her own organization; purchasing over 400 VR headsets - one for each employee at the Goodway group - to enable activities ranging from team huddles, brainstorm sessions & recently, their first organization-wide meeting. New employees now receive one in their hiring packages. 

Though traditional business metrics fall short in quantifying the returns from these investments. Employee Lifetime Value provides a framework to have these discussions. And it's an idea I wanted Kandi’s feedback on. As always, we had a lot of fun. And I hope you enjoy it. 

Kandi Gongora
 
Kandi Gongora is the Vice President of People and Organizational Excellence at Goodway Group, where she leads people experience, rev operations, strategic and organizational development functions. Kandi’s passion for learning, behavioural science, holistic well-being and business has led her on a non-traditional career path into “HR”. 
 
With over 20 years of experience, she has held various leadership positions including Director of Organizational Excellence at Park Place Dealerships, where she led the large luxury automobile group to become the recipient of the Malcolm Baldrige Award, and Quality Systems Manager at Coca-Cola Enterprises.  She holds a BS, Multidisciplinary Studies from McMurry University and is a graduate of Southern Methodist University’s executive education program.

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Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] I've gotten to do that really are different. And outside of a typical HR and those types [00:00:10] of things help us transform and be a different company based on what the marketplace needs.[00:00:20] 

strengths [00:00:30] drive innovation. Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another. Thinking inside the box, the show where we discuss complex issues related to work and culture. [00:00:40] If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at bento, hr.com or wherever you find your favorite podcasts by searching, thinking inside the box.[00:00:50] 

In today's episode, I chat with a good friend candy. The chief transformation and people officer at Goodway group, a New York city-based full service, [00:01:00] data-driven digital marketing solution. The organization understands the importance of people in their strategy. That much is clear and like nearly every [00:01:10] other organization in the world they need to address.

To reflect, changing consumer demands pack to survive. And in her role, candy is tasked with bringing that all [00:01:20] together. And honestly, she might be the perfect person for the role in the two years that I've known candy our time together and hacking HR or in her [00:01:30] participation at the global HR summit.

She's always, for me, demonstrated a passion for learning and science and innovation. And honestly, in [00:01:40] 2022, each are foundational elements of successful transformations and together we tackled a lot of fun topics in this chat beginning with her professional journey, [00:01:50] discussing how she stitches together, experiences and operations and technology and HR to enable transformation at her rapidly growing digital marketing org.

[00:02:00] And we discussed her. Firm's use of virtual reality pioneered originally at the global HR summit in 2020, which still amazingly over a year later is still the [00:02:10] largest enterprise business conference ever presented in virtual reality. Or candy was one of our 60 speakers participating via virtual reality headset as a panelist from just [00:02:20] outside her home, uh, in Dallas, Texas to an audience of over 800 people, nearly half of which were also in VR.[00:02:30] 

Truly remarkable. Now today, candy is piloting the use of virtual reality and earn organization purchasing over 400 VR headsets, one [00:02:40] for each employee at the good way group to enable activities ranging from team huddles, brainstorming sessions, and recently their first organization wide meeting [00:02:50] in VR.

New employees even now receive one of their hiring packages. So, you know, we dug into that and we wrapped our discussion, uh, about a [00:03:00] chat regarding a model I've been evolving for about two years now, something called employee lifetime. Now a lot of you have a marketing background or [00:03:10] certainly have done, you know, your MBAs or business school.

The concept of customer lifetime value is not a new term. Marketing and sales have been using this now for several generations, [00:03:20] but the concept of employee lifetime value for me is really interesting. If asked most of us would agree that organizational investments in improving the employee experience, [00:03:30] giving people the right tools to do good work and providing access to information, knowledge, and experience.

Our smart business though. Traditional business metrics do fall [00:03:40] short in quantifying the returns from these investments. How do we determine the ideal length of an employee's orientation and onboarding experience it considering how [00:03:50] to most rapidly accelerate their path to being a full. And what's the Delta at that same onboarding and orientation experience is just, okay.

The science [00:04:00] shows that employees and knowledge-based roles today take between four and six months to reach peak contributions at a new firm. It's likely the same by [00:04:10] the way, for a new. Yeah, most organizations dedicate no more than five business days to the activity where, and you all know this, we fill up [00:04:20] paperwork and access to benefits and, you know, gives you access to different systems, really administrative, really compliance, oriented.

What would it mean to the [00:04:30] organization's bottom line? If that. Periods extended from five business days to five business weeks and included more specific tailored on the job training or [00:04:40] interactions with other colleagues in other departments supplemented with external knowledge, perhaps to close any skill gaps necessary for the role.

These are all questions that organizations need to be [00:04:50] increasingly asking, because when we're dealing with a knowledge-based economy and knowledge based workers in a dispersed hybrid work environment, the difference between good and great [00:05:00] is the difference between 80% and a hundred percent. And the gap may even be like, Employee lifetime value provides the framework for these [00:05:10] conversations and how to better quantify the values that employees can provide to an organization over their lifetime and what organizations need to do to ensure the [00:05:20] maximum amount of output.

It's a controversial idea. I grant you and still very early in its stage of evolution, but I was super eager to have Candy's [00:05:30] feedback on it. And she was kind enough to provide that. And we just had a lot of. I hope you enjoy it. So without further ado, I bring you candy and gore. [00:05:40] Hello, candy. How are you doing today?

Hi Matt. I'm doing wonderful. How about yourself? I knew really well. And I'm looking forward to this conversation. It's been a while since I recorded [00:05:50] a podcast. And when I saw your name pop up in my calendar, I was like, yes, I haven't had a chat with candy in a long period of time. Uh, and also I just, you know, having to record a [00:06:00] podcast, I'm super excited to geek out and find out what's new with you and how things are going.

That's awesome. I'm equally excited. I know that we spend a lot of time chatting through the [00:06:10] pandemic and then it's been a minute. And so it's really nice to kind of catch up in many different ways. Yeah. Well, let's, let's catch everybody else up with our chats. I mean, maybe before we get started, tell the audience [00:06:20] a bit about who candy is, your background, your experiences, and what led you to this.

Sure. So I am candy gon Cora, and I am the chief transformation and people officer at good way [00:06:30] group. Um, we have our, a fully remote company. We have been for over 13 years and we're in the marketing services business. I've been here around six years [00:06:40] and I think we were, you know, I shared this with you earlier, but.

My passions fall in many different areas. And even when I was going to school, I started with a business degree. Then I changed the [00:06:50] psychology and then I moved to education and I really still had a passion for all three. And once I finished my education degree, I [00:07:00] realized quickly teaching wasn't for me.

Um, I couldn't teach to the test. So I started working for Coca-Cola and was really focused on educating their workforce. [00:07:10] And that turned into leadership development and it turned into quality systems and systems thinking and organizational excellence. And from there, I went to work [00:07:20] at a Highline dealership where we focused on something different than a car dealership.

It was about the people and about the service we were providing. [00:07:30] And, um, we went on to, uh, receive the Malcolm Baldrige award, which was really exciting. And then I landed here a good way. And along the way, I've [00:07:40] really just followed my passions. And haven't tried not to stay within like a certain swim lane and, and just continue to challenge myself and grow.

And [00:07:50] I feel like if I'm feeling a little bit of uncomfortableness and online, On my toes a little bit, then I'm where I need to be. And so part of that was going through, uh, the [00:08:00] grow program, which I know you were part of and actually backing up a little bit. I met you. Uh, when we did a VR HR summit, I think that's where I formally [00:08:10] met you.

I think I can remember the grow and all of that went together. It was a huge part of my experience with the pandemic and it just really opened my eyes to many different things. And what you don't [00:08:20] know is our whole organization now has headsets, and we do a lot in VR, which has been really exciting. You can't see my face, but I'm [00:08:30] literally jumping out of my chair with excitement right now.

Um, how big is your employee again? Or you're pointing? Yeah, we have around 450 we're in we're we're growing [00:08:40] and they all have headsets. They all have headsets. So. Officially officially had our first hybrid summit in February because we are remote [00:08:50] typically twice a year. We all come together and the location and we spend a week together and we play, we have connections, we work a little and obviously the pandemic change that.

So we've [00:09:00] had hybrid summits throughout the pandemic and we tried different platforms. February. We was our first hybrid where part of the [00:09:10] group was in Arizona and the other part were at home with their VR headsets. And so we had such a huge success with that, that now, as you [00:09:20] onboard with our company, you get a headset, you get education into the platform we're currently using in the different platforms.

Uh, how to engage and now you see, [00:09:30] you know, pop up paintball games on Fridays, or people are meeting in the AR um, there's some education that's happening there. We have, you know, the leadership team. We did a team building where we did an [00:09:40] escape room. So we've laughed so much more. Now that we're coming together in that medium it's, it's really been great.

I'm so happy to hear [00:09:50] that. Uh, as you alluded to, we put that conference on at the end of 2020 at a time. I don't think many people understood why we were throwing up virtual reality contracts and a [00:10:00] little pandemic. I think you've alluded to why we were so passionate about it in a world where. Whatever happens past this pandemic.

[00:10:10] I think we can agree that we're going to be more sensitive to the idea of bringing people together in the same physical space, whether it's because people are less comfortable being together in the same space, whether [00:10:20] it's because the nature of our workplaces have become more diverse, dispersed, and more diverse and a greater percentage of remote or hybrid workers.

But the reality is the [00:10:30] work environments of 50 years ago of 20 years ago, where the vast majority of your work place came together. It's done. And we can transition that [00:10:40] workplace to a hybrid setting, using mediums like zoom and Microsoft teams and Hangouts and all the other blue jeans, all those other great video conferencing platforms.

But like we saw throughout the [00:10:50] pandemic, you terms like zoom fatigue or people lamenting the loss of connection and experience in the workplace because they're using a video interface and not being people at the proverbial water [00:11:00] cooler, virtual reality, as you've now seen the experience, bridges the gap.

And affords a greater degree of intimacy when you're not in the same room with your colleagues and [00:11:10] that's not trivial. When you think about activities like hiring and training and onboarding and team building and performance management that necessitate a greater degree of social [00:11:20] intimacy. And frankly kind of feel hollow if you're doing them over the phone or over a video conference.

So I'm so glad to hear that it's working out candy and I'll be eager to kind of check in with [00:11:30] you throughout the next months and maybe even the next years to see how it's going, because, um, I, I, won't be surprised to hear, um, the, all the wonderful directions that you iterate the [00:11:40] technology and excited to hear coming the results from that.

Yes, we're excited and we're, you know, we are invested in making sure we have the right connections. You know, that really drives the [00:11:50] engagement of our people. And as you know, then that leads to performance. But I will tell you, so, you know, thanks to you because, because of that summit, the HR summit that you put [00:12:00] on, I bought a headset and that's where it all started.

Otherwise. You know, I'm not a gamer, so I've run out of gone there and now I'm totally there including games. So, [00:12:10] so that was a, you know, a great output of our relationship. Oh, I appreciate it. And I I've taken so much also from the connection you mentioned to the grow program [00:12:20] for those who aren't familiar, uh, hacking HR is a wonderful organization.

That's been created by Enrique Rubio, a business partner, and a really good friend of mine. And one of the outflows of that program [00:12:30] was, uh, a kind of a group called grow, which was meant to be. Originally a leadership and development oriented cohorts, kind of a mastermind model for HR [00:12:40] professionals. But as you alluded to candy, it launched almost I think, a month before the pandemic.

So it quickly became almost a support group for individuals coming together [00:12:50] and cathartic at times and emotional at times. And I'll never forget those first few meetings in March and April and may of 2020. And, um, you know, just. [00:13:00] Listening to people and listening to their challenges and just trying to hold space and be there for them.

It was, it was time and all of our careers and, uh, I, you know, certainly memories. I [00:13:10] won't forget. I agree. And I still have many connections from that group and program that we built them very quickly because of, I think it, because of the situation we were [00:13:20] in and how it was designed to bring us together.

But. Look at us, we're still in contact. I still talked to him, Ricky, but there's many of the people from that group that I still [00:13:30] talk to monthly. So it could have come at a better time. Um, one of the things that happened for you personally, candy in the pandemic was your job. Uh, [00:13:40] when I first met you, you were heading up the HR organization for good way group.

And then during the pandemic, you managed to clip the new word in your title. Um, transformation. I'd love [00:13:50] to hear a bit about how that came to be and a bit about how your roles evolved since that change. Um, one of the things that has been interesting is I've, you know, [00:14:00] I didn't grow up in the HR world. Um, and that's really the traditional HR is where I didn't want to play.

I actually kind of avoided it if possible. I loved partnering with HR. [00:14:10] And so, uh, in my last role, the only path I had or my last company in last role, the only path I had was really to, to. Go into [00:14:20] the HR leadership role. I was more in the org dev. And so that's how I ended up at good way, because they saw the benefit of having someone with an org development [00:14:30] type of mindset and not just an HR mind.

Hey everyone. It's Matt here, and I hope you're enjoying today's discussion [00:14:40] before we continue. I want to make you aware of our latest creative project, HR in VR, every Thursday at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard [00:14:50] time. All connect with technology pioneers, business executives from the world's most iconic brands and industry thought leaders to discuss the future of immersive [00:15:00] technologies like virtual rail.

And their impact on future workplace. In partnership with Microsoft we're broadcasting each episode on LinkedIn live [00:15:10] and in front of a live studio audience in Altspace. Joining is easy for LinkedIn users. Simply follow my account, Matt in [00:15:20] VR and stay tuned Thursdays at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time for the LinkedIn live.

Or for a truly immersive live experience, visit [00:15:30] alt vr.com to download old space on your Mac, PC or VR headset, and join us live in our studio audience. [00:15:40] There you'll have the chance to ask questions, meet me and our incredible guests and connect with others from the comfort of your own home. This is the future [00:15:50] folks.

And I hope you'll be part of it. And I'll link the details for HR and VR, along with all other relevant information in the show notes of this podcast. [00:16:00] And now back to our discussion.

And so when I first got here, that was my sole focus and [00:16:10] then quickly we, within a short amount of time, we lumped in HR and the learning function, and I took those over. And th there was actually [00:16:20] appreciation that I didn't have the traditional HR mindset. So we constantly looked at the HR practices, which we call people in spirit, people experienced internally.

We looked [00:16:30] at those practices differently about how do we provide value to the business and less about the administrative and compliance and, you know, acknowledging that those things, there's certain things that [00:16:40] have to be done, but we're definitely. Just more focused on how do we support the business and create those outcomes.

And so in doing [00:16:50] so, we saw some really good practices that we created the impact to the business. And I think that through the pandemic, you know, actually before the pandemic, [00:17:00] I set a goal of, Hey, I want to be, I want to grow. In this way, and I'm not sure exactly what it looks like. It looks messy cause it is some [00:17:10] people stuff it's change and transformation because I see a place where companies are always having to evolve and we really should be more change agile versus [00:17:20] like really managing it.

And we just need to look at it differently. And I don't know what it looks like. And luckily I have a great leader. Who's like, well, let's map it out. And what does that look like? And where do you feel [00:17:30] like you have gaps? And so we did that. And I just set a goal of like, I don't know what it's going to be, but I want it to be different and I want to evolve and we focused on it.

And I think the [00:17:40] Pentagon, it really pushed that forward in many ways, because we had to transform and we had to change and evolve very quickly. In many ways [00:17:50] we were already remote. So we didn't have that, that we now, all of a sudden had children at home. We have. Different, you know, we couldn't come together twice a year in [00:18:00] person.

Like there was a lot of things that changed. And so it, it quickly, you know, evolved my, my learning and how I had to pivot and what I had to [00:18:10] do, which then really helped me close a lot of my gaps that I focused on. And then we got to sit down and say, okay, you've, you've achieved this. Like you have grown in [00:18:20] these areas that we set out for you to grow.

Now, what does that look like? And we played with. What really speaks to that. And there's a piece of it that has some CLO stuff in [00:18:30] it. There's pieces that have to do with people, of course, and org excellence, like, you know, really driving excellence and also pieces of it that drive business [00:18:40] strategy and, and how do we know we're successful?

And so that's kind of how we've lumped it together. And I've had also had the. [00:18:50] Responsibility and honor to build up some functions within our, within our company that typically, you know, I'm using air quotes here and HR person wouldn't do [00:19:00] because I have been trying to grow in a different way. And so we have a center of excellence for media and I help.

Oversee standing that up. You know, I had a [00:19:10] great leader who did that and, and so I was her sponsor and we built that up and we stood it up and that was within my function for a long time. And now we've tracked that for that [00:19:20] over to where it's more connected in the right areas. And then. We've built a sales ops organization.

Typically you don't see sales ops and an HR person, and [00:19:30] that leader has done a great job. It was her first time and she's thriving. And now we're evolving that to rev ops. And eventually that may go to our growth function, but you know, those are some of [00:19:40] the things that. I've gotten to do that really are different.

And outside of a typical HR and those types of things help us transform and be a different company [00:19:50] based on what the marketplace needs. It's fascinating because as you touched on, it's not a traditional role that you find in organizations, though. I [00:20:00] think you alluded to the fact that. It's probably something we're going to see more of in the future.

This blend of people, operations, innovation, and [00:20:10] technology. It's the lifeblood of every organization. And the fact that we operated those traditional functions in silos before is lot of the reason we find ourselves in the predicament that [00:20:20] we are in today, which is companies are struggling to adapt more quickly.

There's a lot of lost productivity and bureaucracy in organizations. Um, you know, candy, one thing we've talked to. [00:20:30] You know, probably a hundred times you and I either in group settings or an individual conversations is this concept of influence and, and acknowledgement that [00:20:40] in a traditional corporate setting, HR doesn't have a lot of power, but they have lots of.

And they're largely responsible for advancing their mandate [00:20:50] through influencing other stakeholders, um, through working through other people and their P and L's in some cases, um, to achieve outcomes. I'm curious for you how [00:21:00] this latest transition has affected influence in Candy's world. If at all, if you think it's maybe the new role was a function.

You are a success in being able to [00:21:10] influence as question number one. And the second question, have you seen your influence be able to shift as the role has evolved? So I think I have seen it shifts since the role has [00:21:20] evolved. I, I do the leave before where the role was at, it was seen traditionally as HR because they couldn't see it any other way, if that [00:21:30] makes sense, because that's traditional.

Right. And so. It was just there Stripe of the beach ball or what they, you know, what they've dealt with in the past. And so I had [00:21:40] made progress by. Slowly working with certain leaders are doing certain programs or projects that made a difference, but it wasn't as [00:21:50] big or as much throughout the org as needed.

And one of the things that I really enjoy and that I'm pretty good at is like partnering with a leader [00:22:00] and working together to push an initiative or make change. And so, you know, I've done that a lot with our president. Uh, I'm also working the growth officer, but before I did a lot of the work [00:22:10] that way.

And now because of the role change and because I'm really, really seeking out the business owners and [00:22:20] really getting in to the, you know, getting to the front line with them, like showing them that I I'm in it with them. And here's how, or here's how I'm thinking. Or I'm asking [00:22:30] lots of questions, being curious, that's making a huge.

Shift and change. And I think that, you know, before you could say, well, maybe your influence or [00:22:40] power came from partnering with the president or the CEO probably true. But I think as they're seeing the change or seeing the difference and look [00:22:50] back and we reflect on like that, what we've achieved, I think they, they then start to see like, okay, this is different.

And how do I engage here? And to me. [00:23:00] You know, I hear people and I know we've talked about this. They're like, I want a seat at the table. I wanted to see the table and I've never focused at having to see the table. I focus on how can I [00:23:10] make an impact on the business. And what does that look like? I don't even think about my role.

I mean, I have to eventually, because. We just do, but I, I really think about like, [00:23:20] what's going on in business and what do I know, or what do I need to learn in the flow to really make an impact here? And that's where I try to go. And sometimes that's [00:23:30] confusing for people because they're like, Hey, you're an HR person, or, Hey, you're focused on learning.

And so. Uh, you know, sometimes I have to say, like I have [00:23:40] experienced here are, here's what I did I've done in the past. Is this, this, this makes sense. Or is this helpful here? And sometimes I had to sit back and say, can I just listen in so I can [00:23:50] better understand the business? And then they let me in. And from there, then I can figure out how do I show value to them?

If that makes any sense at all, Matt.[00:24:00] 

I'm sure affords you a ton of credibility. And you talked about a few things Canada, I think are really, really. This is an area that [00:24:10] I often get questions on. And I think one area that you and I are similar is that if we were to show up at a business conference and people weren't to know our backgrounds, they would never guess that you are an HR [00:24:20] professional.

And they probably would say the same thing about me because we talk about the Lang. We talk about the language of the business. And if that business happens to be in the marketing space or the [00:24:30] retail space or. Aeronautical space. We can adjust our language and our, our nomenclature and the intention and the lens we put on things to reflect the [00:24:40] circumstances.

There are a lot of folks that take a very functional view of HR and try and bend the world to that worldview and try and bend their companies and fit [00:24:50] them into the things that they've learned as opposed to. Well, you're alluding to, which is a kind of a reversal of that using the organization to influence the HR mandate.

Um, not [00:25:00] necessarily trying to fit the organization into an HR lens. And I think that's really, really important. I also think it's really important what you said about curiosity and being a student [00:25:10] of the business and understanding the business. Not because not only because it provides for a high degree.

Uh, credibility you'll candy. I worked in a lot of organizations [00:25:20] that there was a strong operational component to them. And I was always very passionate about being in the operation like you, my background is operations, so I'm always interested at the pointy end of the stick [00:25:30] as it were the inflection point at which the customer interacts with our organization.

I'm always super passionate about that. And. Having curiosity for all the activities [00:25:40] and the broader landscape that affects those transactions, I think is just a critical business skill. But in particular for HR, which has its fingers in literally everything, having [00:25:50] that additional knowledge and context is just so invaluable.

As we seek to inform practices around talent management and talent, acquisition and [00:26:00] compensation and things of that nature. So I think you've, you've a kid on a couple of really, really key points. And I, I just wanted to spend a moment or two just to kind of. I think they are so important. Um, I also [00:26:10] think.

One thing we were talking about offline just before this recording started, was this idea of the ongoing struggle of quantifying the value, quantifying [00:26:20] the impact of a lot of the activities that exist inside of organizations. I mean, it's really easy from an external facing. The measures and the metrics are so much more sophisticated in areas [00:26:30] like sales and marketing, where you can have really clear KPIs that demonstrate the efficacy of actions and where you should put your time and attention.

And what's the ROI of certain activities. But when you look [00:26:40] inside of an organization and, you know, traditionally called people metrics or HR metrics, but frankly candy, their business metrics. We look inside the organization. The metrics tend to be a little bit [00:26:50] lacking, um, as somebody who's done. Far too much academic research in the last two months, the science behind it is embarrassingly [00:27:00] light, but there are some factors around things like speed to productivity.

That is the measure of how fast an employee joins an organization and gets up to full performance. Um, [00:27:10] there's there's measures and metrics around employee engagement and sentiment that speak to an employee's longevity and not only their peak performance at a company, but how long they stick around in a world that's [00:27:20] becoming increasingly transit or trend.

And then finally there's there's measures and metrics around things like turnover and attrition and in the effort to better aluminate that, [00:27:30] you know, value proposition as you were, as it were. Um, we've developed a bento HR concept called employee lifetime value, and we've drawn inspiration from an organization and [00:27:40] it's.

A head of HR at greenhouse, um, a great applicant tracking system platform, and really started to encapsulate what we perceive as the value of an employee's [00:27:50] contribution over the time, um, in the organization and, uh, candy, if you wanna just bear with me for like 15 seconds, a lot, a bit of context to it. Um, the basic premise of the model is [00:28:00] that when an employee starts with.

You and a senior executive role or me as a frontline employee at a retail establishment. There's an investment that the company and the [00:28:10] organization is making in our onboarding and development so that we can contribute. And there's a, the, the value proposition is heavily weighted towards the company or the organization providing value to the [00:28:20] new employee.

Whether that is the screening and their selection, but ultimately their onboarding, their orientation and their, their path to getting to, uh, being a productive member of the [00:28:30] team. Once they get to that status. Now it's incumbent upon the organization to one, try and realize as much potential from that individual.

[00:28:40] We could have a five-hour podcast about all the activities, candy that can drive engagement and sentiment. And we've had many conversations about the, the, um, scientific [00:28:50] link between intrinsic motivation. That is the motivation that comes from within discretionary effort. That is the effort that people provide beyond what they absolutely have to, to keep their jobs and, [00:29:00] and organizational performance.

There's tons of activities that we can do in that bucket. And there's lots of activities that we can influence. When people decide they may want to leave the organization. And if we can increase their [00:29:10] tenure by six months, 12 months, 24 months, we can derive more value from the employee and we can get more value from the investment we're making in the employee.[00:29:20] 

And for candy, for someone that I know is so past. About visioning and talent development and personal and, and group and organizational accountability. [00:29:30] Being able to quantify the value that an employee can deliver to an organization and being able to demonstrate how smart and savvy and measurable investors.[00:29:40] 

During the person's onboarding and orientation, but throughout their employment around development and retention can have a material positive effect on an [00:29:50] organization's economics and build the business case for some of the investments that we believe are so necessary to keep it. Virtuous circle as it were spinning in the right direction.[00:30:00] 

You know, that's a lot of information that I just love to hear. Um, your first reactions and maybe get your thoughts on how, how you go about trying to make the same kind of arguments, you know, [00:30:10] arguments for investments in necessary programs within your organism. I love that thinking. And, you know, we were talking a little bit before offline and you know, [00:30:20] we're trying to kind of look at things that way too, or how do we deliver really good metrics to our managers?

Just not just [00:30:30] the typical people metrics, right? How do we deliver some really good metrics to their people so that they can make better decisions or see how their actions or their investments [00:30:40] make a difference? And it just puts a little bit more teeth in the game. It also meets them where they are because they are business people.

They [00:30:50] see themselves as business people, and they're, they're looking at those type of metrics. And many times when we show up with our people metrics, they're like, yeah, that's great. What does that mean to me? [00:31:00] You know? Th they don't always make the connection. And I think this is game-changing where it really makes a connection on, and it shows them where they can take action in [00:31:10] partnership with HR.

And it also shows that it also, I think, can drive some different behaviors for us and our, our function. I was thinking [00:31:20] back to, you know, as, as you were talking and it just reminds me of when I was working at Coca Cola. It was a new role. I was [00:31:30] fairly new out of college. I tried teaching a little bit and then kind of decided to switch gears.

And they had written all of their SLPs, their standard [00:31:40] operating procedures. They had just gone through kind of an ISO ish type thing. It was a total quality system for Coca-Cola and it wasn't working. They weren't getting in. [00:31:50] Any traction. And they did a study and realized that the manufacturing workers read at a fifth grade level and their SLPs were written in a [00:32:00] ninth grade level.

So they hired my role and I had goals that I had to meet because it was an investment. It was a huge investment to come in and kind of [00:32:10] help them. Read right. Help them increase their reading level. And I knew that I was being measured and this was an investment. And if I didn't achieve certain things, then [00:32:20] it, you know, and some of it was tied to this miss metrics in the role.

Probably wouldn't be there. So I knew I had to do certain things and I, I wasn't getting traction [00:32:30] on the classes or having people come in and work with me. And so I actually went down to the line and put the hair in it on put the, you know, the, the, [00:32:40] um, ear protection in and the, the goggles. And I went down there and I learned how they did their job.

I learned their pain. I learned what they were doing. I, you know, I lived and walked in their shoes [00:32:50] and then I got engagement. I had tons of classes like that role groups. Into so many different things that the investment they initially made really paid off [00:33:00] because they didn't have tar new people or they didn't have to rewrite the process is like people learned and stepped up to the challenge.

And it's interesting to think back about that because [00:33:10] really that's what we need today. We, we, we sit there and go with gut feels of like, if we just do this, maybe we get more out of that person. Or if we just [00:33:20] spend here, we'll do this or that. And. But we don't know, and we don't have a way to figure that out.

And so my bet then was like, if I'm going to [00:33:30] go, I'm going to go make a relationship and I'm going to understand their business and understand what they're doing. And then hopefully they'll give me a chance to show how I can make it better. And once. [00:33:40] More engagement then I could then what's next? What's the next action I can take.

And I think so many times we miss it here because we were maybe measuring the wrong things or we [00:33:50] aren't making the connection back to the business in the right way. So we have HR professionals doing their best job of trying to do the best [00:34:00] work they can to make a difference in the business. And then you have over here, the business, people who are doing the best job they can to try to.

You know, do their best work and [00:34:10] bring in the right business and make it profitable. And sometimes they feel like HR gets in the way it's homework, it's extra work [00:34:20] and HR doesn't feel like they're making an impact and they feel like they're not seen. And if we look at the way that you're looking at it, it really creates a partnership [00:34:30] and it really gives us a way to say.

What this can make the most difference here. What's going to move the needle and kind of test it and really see [00:34:40] what value that brings through the employee. Not through just our metrics well and candy. You know, my background [00:34:50] predominantly when it came to HR and big business was in retail and hospitality and a couple of.

Attributes of that particular, you know, [00:35:00] industry is that you have a workforce that is very transient. You have a workforce that skews to having more high school level [00:35:10] education, as opposed to, you know, university level or graduate level education, you have an industry. Increasingly becoming automated, [00:35:20] um, and increasingly looking to technology to either compliment if not altogether replace human intervention and because of all those factors and because [00:35:30] of the industries, just generally low margins of operation and high amount of competition costs, uh, containment, cost, certainty, uh, [00:35:40] being efficient with your spend and your overheads.

This is the difference between having success and not having success. Um, whereas when I've supported organizations in industries like [00:35:50] pharmaceuticals or technology, there's a bit more, I'll call it casualness in, in spending and in allocation of resources because they [00:36:00] have larger margins and they have more area with which to make those areas and make those.

At the same time. What I think I was able to take away from my experiences was [00:36:10] that because of the insistence on measuring return on investment because of the scrutiny applied to every possible expense because of a, of a CSRO who [00:36:20] you'll laugh, his favorite turn of phrase with me in, in meetings.

Constraints drive innovation, which is a really fancy way of saying I'm kind of here touch it because [00:36:30] of all those factors. We, we look at employee experience. I look at employee experience in aggregate because I'm working [00:36:40] with a workforce that is in the hundreds. If not thousands, if not tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, when you factor in turnover.

And my intention in looking at systems and programs [00:36:50] is to influence. In percentage points, their experience, their retention, their ability to accelerate to productivity, um, because [00:37:00] the, the impact of moving the needle 3% for a company, the size of, you know, a thousand people to be millions of dollars and it gets even bigger as you get larger and larger in size for [00:37:10] organizations.

Um, what excites me about that is I knew one thing had never heard of. And I've been out, I've been out of a corporate role now for about two and a half years, three years. [00:37:20] One thing I never understood the candies. The amount of arguments I had with organizations about the need to, to develop their people.

Like, I don't know, like [00:37:30] it almost, in some cases got almost an adversarial and I just never understood the, the, the charge behind that conversation. It's like, we just want to [00:37:40] develop our people. Can we agree. That's a really good use of our money if it's the right program with the right intention and the right measurements.

But can we just agree that for a whole bunch of [00:37:50] reasons, it just makes sense. Especially in a world that's evolving so quickly to constantly be getting our people things to learn and, and whether it's, you know, asynchronous [00:38:00] employee-driven poll type learning or. You know, proactive, synchronous, organizational delivered, learning there's value in giving people knowledge and access to information to learn [00:38:10] about their jobs.

Um, I never understood why there was just so much tension around it. And what I love about this model, that we're, we're still very much refining. Is it just, is it makes [00:38:20] the case for. Marginal thoughtful investments so much more compelling when you look at the mathematics of even extending someone's employment by 12 months, [00:38:30] um, you, when you factor in that, the amount of benefit that provides to the organization for somebody working at peak capacity and then, and the ability to defer costs [00:38:40] to replace them, and you know, this candy like the cost to replace, uh, uh, even a marginal performer around just the recruitment costs, the cost of time, the cost of effort, the loss [00:38:50] productivity.

When you lose someone in. Fill them, the lost productivity of the person that has to train them and their leader who has to onboard them. Like we, we, there's a lot of hidden costs that we just don't fully [00:39:00] appreciate. Um, or we're not spending that time. And therefore that person's path to productivity who's joined the organization is either uneven or far longer [00:39:10] than it needs to be.

So it's, it's very much a pay me now pay me later conversation. What I think ELT. Tell T V does above a lot of other things, is it illuminates that [00:39:20] small investments now save you money in the long run and actually are in the best interest of your employee? And it's, I think it's probably a discussion that you've had with your team.

I don't know, a thousand times [00:39:30] before. Yeah. Yeah. At least that who's county, but who's counting candy. I'm curious, you know, um, you know, as 2022 has kicked off, we're [00:39:40] almost through the first quarter of the year, what's on your dance card for the rest of the year. What kind of things are you thinking about what's on your, you know, your plan for the remainder of 20, 22?

Well, interesting enough. We're, we're [00:39:50] kind of thinking around the same area that you are like, how do we give, how do we really impact the business and how do we give. Uh, you know, the HR people and the [00:40:00] managers, I guide on what this really looks like and where we can invest and where we spend our time.

We're all busy. And our industry moves fast. I think it's fast for everybody [00:40:10] right now, but we're typically fast and changing. There's a lot of work to be done. And so many times our leaders internally are, are [00:40:20] trying to make a choice of like, where do I spend my time to go spend my time with this work? Or Dustin, my time on the people?

Like, what does this mean? And really. We want to show them that the work with your people. [00:40:30] Is impactful and that's how you impact your clients, but we need a better mechanism to show them and support them on what that looks like and how to do that in an [00:40:40] impactful way. Versus so many times, I feel like our managers get stuck doing the work because they haven't had time to do the development or see to [00:40:50] your point, like how that impacts.

I really good metric or how it impacts the business in a different way. And so, you know, we've been looking at that, but taking it a [00:41:00] different perspective. Um, and I really love your perspective. I know we talked about that, but that's really big because I want to make sure that the work that we're doing here is making an [00:41:10] impact on our people.

All of our people, leaders like just people and they feel. When they're working at our company, a good way that they're living their best [00:41:20] life and they're making an impact and their career is staying relevant. That's really important to us where no matter if they're a good way or where they go in the future, like we want to make [00:41:30] sure that they feel confident that their career is staying relevant.

And so. There's a lot of work around that. There's, there's better metrics that we need to do. There's more connecting [00:41:40] with the business and there is continued focus on wellbeing of our people and the flexibility and, and what our employees need and how do they want to work and how do we [00:41:50] create that, that culture and environment and place for them to come.

So just a few things, it's all connected, but there's just a few things. That sounds like more than a few things. Candy. [00:42:00] I expected nothing less from that answer. Um, knowing you, I just want to first off, thank you so much for the time today. I know you're super busy and I appreciate you lending your time to the [00:42:10] podcast and lending your insights to the audience.

Super excited for us to keep in touch throughout the rest of the year. I'm. Now I'm just like, I'm going to ask you every other week about how the VR experiments going, [00:42:20] um, and looking forward to keeping in touch. I just want to wish you so much good luck and good fortune to balance a 2022 and, uh, looking forward to keeping it.

Thank you, Matt. I really appreciate being here. And [00:42:30] look, you can put on your headset and join us any time. I'm sure the paint ball or some, you know, um, we, we, we, we, we protect the castle from some. [00:42:40] I dunno monsters, but yeah, you're welcome to join us. And, and I just want to say that I think one of the, you know, there's many, many lessons, a million great things that came out of the [00:42:50] pandemic and they're still showing up today, but your friendship and connection has been one of those things and the highlight for me.

So thanks for having me today. And I look forward [00:43:00] to continuing our friendship in learning new. We will talk really, really soon. Take care. Thanks.[00:43:10] 

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