How Toxicity Taxes Organizations - Paul McCarthy

Paul McCarthy creates the conditions for leaders to have courageous and honest conversations. Having operated in the management and leadership consulting space for almost 25 years, Paul has strong opinions regarding leadership in future workplaces. 

His clients have included BP, PepsiCo, and Deloitte. And he’s worked extensively with governments in the UK and Canada. His breadth of experiences resonate when discussing broader issues of workplace culture.

Together we touched on a number of topics, including leadership, toxicity and the necessity for a new way of thinking about leadership. We discuss the hidden costs of organizational misalignment, and the rise of rebellious talent. 

It was such a pleasure connecting with Paul. And I hope you enjoy it.

Paul McCarthy

Paul is an emerging thought leader who is introducing a counterintuitive approach to having new conversations about the future of work and leadership. He applies a disruptive, yet evidence-based, experiential, and experimental approach that is beginning to shift the narrative inside organizations, with leaders, and in the leadership industry. His work is gaining increasing traction amongst those who recognize that outdated and ineffective approaches to leadership identification, recruitment, onboarding, and development systems, and processes must evolve.

Paul has over 25 years of global business consulting experience as a consulting leader with firms and clients we've all heard of and has worked within 15 different industries. Paul now operates his own practice in North America where he helps organizations and leaders that are navigating the perils and opportunities of organizational change, development, and the future of leadership.

LinkedIn
Website

Thinking Inside the Box

Constraints drive innovation. We tackle the most complex issues related to work & culture. And if you enjoy the work we’re doing here, consider giving us a 5-star rating, leaving a comment & subscribing. It ensures you get updated whenever we release new content & really helps amplify our message.

LinkedIn
Instagram
Twitter
Website
Apple Podcasts
Google Podcasts
Spotify
Stitcher
Pocket Cast

Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

LinkedIn
Twitter

Transcript

[00:00:00] Guest 1: But I do think the time is now upon us, where we can actually expect and mandate that our talent and our leaders coming into our organizations in the future. And in fact, right now we want. They're fresh thinking. We want new ideas because that is the [00:00:20] only way that we will continue to adapt

[00:00:35] Matt: in. Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of thinking inside [00:00:40] the box, a show where we discuss complex issues related to work and culture. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at bento, hr.com and wherever you find your favorite podcasts by searching, thinking inside the box.

And if you enjoy the work we're doing here, consider leaving us a five star rating, a comment and subscribing. [00:01:00] It ensures that you get updated whenever we release new content and really helps amplify our message. In today's episode, I chat with Paul McCarthy. Paul creates the conditions for leaders to have courageous and honest conversations.

Having operated in the management and leadership consulting space for almost 25 years. Paul has [00:01:20] strong opinions regarding leadership in future workplaces. His past clients have included BP, PepsiCo and Deloitte, and he's worked alongside governments in the UK and Canada. His breadth of experiences resonate when discussing broader issues of workplace.

And together, we touched on a number of topics, including [00:01:40] leadership toxicity and the necessity for a new way of thinking about how management should operate in a post pandemic landscape. We discussed the hidden costs of organizational misalignment and the rise of rebellious talent. It's always a pleasure connecting with Paul and I help you enjoy our conversation.

And now I [00:02:00] bring you Paul McCarthy. Paul. We tried this once before and because of a localized computer issue, I E operator error, uh, our previous podcast was lost forever and it didn't feel right to not take one more crack at it. How are you today? I'm 

[00:02:16] Guest 1: good. I'm uh, I'm glad that we, we [00:02:20] reconnected and I, you know, in this world of technology being what it is and some of the challenges it can present.

Yeah. It was, uh, it was a great conversation. We had. Almost a year ago, I think. Um, but yeah. Yeah, always, always happy to meet like-minded people and take another crack at this. Looking forward to a conversation at matters. It sets 

[00:02:39] Matt: a, it sets a high [00:02:40] bar because our last conversation dealt with a broad range of topics around leaders and organizations.

Some of the challenges that they face, it was right in the thick of the pandemic. And therefore our context were a little different than they are today. And I catch up with you now a year later, you're in a different country working on different project. [00:03:00] Maybe before we get into the specifics around what we talked about before, let's catch everybody up on who Paul is, what Paul's on the boat and, uh, what 

[00:03:07] Guest 1: brought you to today?

Yeah, I would love to, yeah, so, I mean, I, I've kind of been in and around the leadership space in one way or another for about quarter of a century. Now that I've kind of been in the consulting space and focusing on [00:03:20] leadership and developing leaders as part of my kind of experience in consulting. And I've also been.

A leader in a bunch of these consulting firms at executive levels. And basically my journey started when, you know, cause my, my, my role was to stay on top of trends in leadership and how we work. And I was farmed out by consulting firms [00:03:40] to provide those services with household name clients, and as part of rising in those industries and consulting, you know, I became a leader myself.

Been fired from four different leadership roles. And so my journey started when I started to ask, I started to demonstrate the qualities that I was hired for, which would ultimately get me [00:04:00] fired. And the irony and twist of this story map is that as it was my job to stay on top of trends in what leaders needed to be developed for the future.

I started to question whether we were developing leaders in the right way for the future. And by the way, this was three or four years ago. And so I, I did a review of leadership programs around the world, and I found that they, [00:04:20] they omitted to have certain qualities, qualities that I was fired for, but I was hired for.

So I got really curious about whether we were at. Developing our leaders effectively to navigate ongoing destruction. And it was just a, it, it was an idea that germinated and, and it just kind of, I let it incubate and I couldn't get it outta my mind. And my curiosity took me [00:04:40] further and ultimately I would develop a, a different way of.

Um, developing leaders for the future. And that's kind of just mushroomed into, to greater work, which is around conversations about our broken leadership system. Cause I realized in the process of doing that, that reflection and research and ideation and [00:05:00] development of perspectives that we have a broken.

Leadership system end to end from identification of talent, recruitment, onboarding, and development, as well as exit. And then I started to question whether we needed to reframe the narrative about the conversations we're having. So I started to talk about why we need disruptive talent and why we [00:05:20] need rebellious leaders for the future.

And in fact why we are not talking about the fact that we have such dysfunction. Politicing and silos and toxicity in our organization. So I was imagining a new future, one that where we evolved, how we looked at these subjects and also how we looked at our troublemaker in terms [00:05:40] of the leaders that, that demonstrate qualities that they got fired for.

So it's kind of mushroomed into this bigger thing around reframing the narrative and reinventing the future of leadership. So that's, that's what I'm all about in a nutshell. And I, I continue. To push this out and, um, and developing a practice around it. And, and it's really focused about help [00:06:00] helping people to wake up, help them to wake up to the dysfunction and, and toxicity in their organizations and their approaches to leadership.

Then start them to, to get them to a point where they've got the courage to address it and then start to evolve their, their approaches to leadership and how they run their organizations so that they then embody. [00:06:20] The concept of what we need for the future, which I believe is, is quite a different approach than what we have right now.

So that in a nutshell, Matt is, is kind of what I'm doing at Paul Mac leadership and, and the philosophies that I, I espouse and. Push out through the airwaves. You 

[00:06:35] Matt: said a lot there, Paul, and what I can't help, but ask as a follow up is [00:06:40] you referenced a few times some of the attributes that got you hired, ultimately got you fired and you've identified a gap when it comes to those particular skills in terms of leadership.

For you, how do you define that? What are those skills? What are those gaps that we're seeing right 

[00:06:54] Guest 1: now? Yeah, that's a great question. And, and for me, it's, it's about the qualities that our leaders need. Our [00:07:00] future leaders need to be developed with, uh, that that are missing from most of the thousands of leadership programs that I've reviewed.

And also some of the hundreds that. Actually developed for household consulting names to deliver to household clients. And so, and, and really, you know, my first book of, of three in the, the fired [00:07:20] leadership series will, will go into these qualities more, but it's no pun on a word to call them fired. But if I kind of give you a bit, bit of a background as to how this came about, you know, I found myself when I was in leadership roles, always thinking.

New ways to do things. And I, I dared to think differently and [00:07:40] act differently that would lead to become known as fresh thinking. So for me, I'm a firm believer in innovation is a result of disruption. And disruption is a result of creating the environment for us to be able to think and act, and dare to act differently.

So I always did that when I joined consulting firms, I always do that when I teach leaders [00:08:00] now, and that would become fresh thinking. I didn't know it at the time, but that's the F in the. Framework the eye is the, the unquenchable thirst for knowledge, the question, the ask and why the, the insane curiosity that I would just, you know, delve deeper and deeper to, to understand and solve challenges.

And that would become [00:08:20] inquisitive nature. The eye in the fire framework, that's actually quite similar to some of the work by Harvard scholar. Professor, uh, Francisca Geno who writes a, a great book called rebel talent, where she talks about the business case of curiosity that we need to inject in future leaders.

Um, the arm would become real and [00:08:40] accountable. And this was basically because I say what I mean, and I mean, what I say. And so I, I'm kind of always turning up as I. Genuine and completely congruent between my words, behaviors, and actions. And so I would like to call that real because I'm not one person outside of the office and another inside the office as a leader, I [00:09:00] am congruent in all of my lenses.

If you like the E in the five framework would become expressive and challenging. And this is basically leaders when, when they disrupt from a. Asking challenging questions, they're questioning and challenging the status quo. And they're not doing it to be that annoying [00:09:20] mosquito that that just irritates everybody they're doing it because they truly are driven by a purpose.

And they're, they're driven by that need to be courageous to ask these challenging questions because they want to evolve the organization. Interesting side by here, he wide did some research a few years. Showed 96% of leaders [00:09:40] would not join it or stay in an organization. If the purpose of the organization was not aligned with their individual purpose.

Now, I compare that to other pieces of research. They found in that same study of quite a few hundred leaders that said if an organization and the individual leaders purpose did not align, [00:10:00] it was more probable that that organization would underperform its competitors by up to 42. So I know that you've written about this in some of your work on trends, about purpose and reifying purpose.

And it seems like the world and his dog is talking about that at the moment, but these are really sobering statistics. And, and I believe that [00:10:20] without the ability and capacity and embracing of this concept of being expressive and challenging as a leader, we'll never realize what we've just talked about and, and move things forward.

So that would become the E in the, the five framework and the D. Is quite simply basically leaders that, that don't play the political [00:10:40] game. Matt, you know, and I, I remember from one of your conversations with Chris Rainey about Elon Musk and how the remote working and like playing the game and all of this kind of this, this narrative that we're, that we believe that we're, we have to blindly accept because we inherited it the moment we started to join an organization, but this is the [00:11:00] D the D is about being genuine and actually.

Look, I don't have an agenda and I'm not playing the political game. And I behave from a place of honesty and integrity. And it's, it's kind of not, not feeding into that narrative of playing toxicity and silo games. So that would later, you know, that that would become the fired [00:11:20] leadership framework, which I would then develop a methodology around and some programs to provide to, to leaders in my chosen sectors that I'd like to, to serve.

And, and it came about from not just my experience. The experience of looking at current leadership programs, as well as leadership models and theories out there and, and seeing [00:11:40] how. Fit for purpose, they work for the future. And so in a nutshell, you know, some, some people I've worked with that, you know, call it like a, a radical and simplified approach to leadership that can fit on the back of a post-it note because it, it really is quite simple.

And I think as a, as a sidebar, again, one of the things that we've. Done. And I've [00:12:00] seen in leadership over the last 25 years is that we over complex this subject and, um, we don't need to, so that's, uh, a nutshell what the fired framework fired leadership qualities and framework consists of. I 

[00:12:14] Matt: appreciate that detailed explanation.

It helps kind of round out the conversation that we're having and also [00:12:20] cast a light on the dissonance between what you're putting out there and what might be happening in organizations today. And Paul like yourself, I'm talking to business leaders across industry. In a variety of corporate functions about their present, what they've gone through over the last two and a half years and what they can expect from [00:12:40] themselves and their organizations into the future.

And as they kind of tell the stories of what they have collectively gone through and what they're looking forward, I'm hearing a lot of familiar tones that perhaps changes. Started quickly coming out of 2020 changes that were born of [00:13:00] necessity because we needed to work in a dispersed way and we needed to keep businesses going.

We needed to be much more innovative and much more technology enabled than ever before to have the same level of success. And it's recently been a growing movement to return people back to the office. You referenced the, the Elon Musk comment, um, among others. They're not the only, Tesla's not the only organization [00:13:20] that has stressed or, you know, encouraged their employees to come back to the office.

And what we heard time and time again, is that while there are challenges in people, working from home organizations largely made the transition into hybrid work, thereby removing the business necessity to. Work in the [00:13:40] office in the way it once was. And I'm not here. This isn't the conversation we're arguing the benefits of, you know, office or work from.

I'm curious as we kind of explore that phenomenon and perhaps the I'll call it the, the expansion of thinking and the, the innovative ways of thinking around leadership and perhaps a more recent [00:14:00] regression broadly, if you've seen something similar as it relates to the fired framework, did you see organizations through that lens evolving throughout the pandemic?

And if so, how, and have you seen a more recent progression? And if so, 

[00:14:15] Guest 1: how, mm there's a lot in there. Well, I, I think, you know, the, [00:14:20] the last two and a half years has, has taken its toll on many of us in many different ways. And, and we must appreciate in the sense of the impact that it's had on our. All our lives, really through every kaleidoscope that we look through our lives.

But you know, one of the things I I've seen is this. If I, if I kind of just leverage one or two of the, the [00:14:40] fired qualities is I, I weave that into my answer here, but you know, more and more organizations now need to do things differently. So the, the spoiler alert here is that I'm talking about the F the fresh thinking.

So basically before we thought our systems and our processes and our approaches were kind [00:15:00] of basically hazard proof fireproof, and that there would be. Fit and pur purpose fit forever. Well, I'm sorry to kind of call COVID what I'm about to call it, but it's it's for me, it's been the largest global human capital experiment that we've ever had and it's showed just how [00:15:20] fragmented we are in, in our workforce and our philosophies to workforce, um, optimization as well and, and new ideas we, we need to inject.

To create a culture that not just expect or tolerates, but actually embraces, celebrates and demands the [00:15:40] ability to think differently. And the ability to question previous narratives and previous ways of doing things. So for instance, finding new ways to look at how do we expand our market share, or how do we get customers more interested in our products or services the old way just doesn't work anymore.[00:16:00] 

[00:16:01] Matt: Hey everyone. It's Matt here. I hope you're enjoying today's discussion. And before we continue, I want to make you aware of my latest creative project this week at work presented in partnership with my good friend, Chris Rainey of HR leaders. Each Friday will live stream on LinkedIn at 7:00 AM. Pacific standard time.[00:16:20] 

That's 10:00 AM Eastern standard time and 3:00 PM GMT for our European viewers and together bringing the latest trends news on topics, emanating from organizations, everything from culture to technology and the future of work. Joining is easy. Just follow me on LinkedIn, click the bell at the top right [00:16:40] hand side of my profile.

And you'll get notified when we go live each week. And whether you do experience the content live or later, if you've been following me for a while, you'll no doubt recognize the fun banter Chris and I have developed over the years and whether it's been podcasts or digital events. We're so excited to, again, bring you the topics affecting today's [00:17:00] workplaces and their leaders.

And now back to our discussion, 

[00:17:06] Guest 1: and this is where my work maybe has a departure from a lot of the other scholars and practitioners. And there, I call it air quote, fake gurus out there and click by influences. Is that basically, why are we only [00:17:20] talking about this now? And why, why have all of these. Issues and mounting scar tissue of organizational dysfunction and ineffective ways of working.

Why have they not been addressed until now? I mean, that's a broader question that I have, but I do think the time is now upon us where we can. [00:17:40] Actually expect and mandate that our talent and our leaders coming into our organizations in the future. And in fact, right now we want their fresh thinking. We want new ideas because that is the only way that we will continue to adapt to unprecedented changes that have been thrust on us.[00:18:00] 

So that's, that's one, one area. I, I think another area I'd just like to pick on here is this concept. You know, we're seeing a lot and I'm sure you might be nodding your head at this point, but we're seeing a lot of talk around. Owning your voice in the workforce and being transparent. And you know, that I'm all for [00:18:20] everything that's happening at the moment with acknowledging toxic outputs in terms of how they affect people in the workforce.

But I, I do think that we might be focusing on, on the symptoms rather than the causes. And I, I talked about this in a, in an article I wrote, and I know that we referenced it offline too, but the there's all this rhetoric [00:18:40] about people. Themselves at work and being transparent and, and we create nice mission statements that are laminated and put on walls, and we encourage people to be themselves step into their voice and own it.

And yet I'm seeing contradictory evidence, anecdotal stories. I'm being told [00:19:00] publicized stories about the true systemic and institutionally driven dysfunction and toxicity. At the same time, we're encouraging people to be real in the organization. , but we're actually discouraging them when they do and when they are real.

So again, I'm seeing quite a bit of a, a [00:19:20] polarizing perspective. So I'd be curious of what I've talked about. Are you seeing some of those, those elements in, in the work that you are doing? Because it feels sometimes I'm, I'm very one of the very few that are talking about it publicly because it's like we don't wanna air our dirty laundry in public.

So we continue to kind of put a different [00:19:40] shade of lipstick on the same. But it's still a pig. Uh, we're probably a bandaid on something that's cracked rather than, you know, a mere grays. And we're not really having conversations that I believe we need to. And so this fired framework and, and this philosophy and mindset of, of what I see the future leader as is very much [00:20:00] driven by the lens of talking about the UN talkable, you know, cutting through the crap, having the conversations that make us uncomfortable so that we can evolve, not just the.

If not just the, the organization, but raise almost, you know, without getting kind of Pollyanna here, raise the consciousness of how we approach work in the future. [00:20:20] I 

[00:20:20] Matt: was on a call yesterday with, uh, an HR leader who was sharing their experience around the last two and a half years. And we'd, we'd been in touch over the last two and a half years on a few different occasions.

And the version that I saw yesterday of this individual was very different. Than in all the previous interactions. [00:20:40] And I got a level of transparency that I hadn't received before, as they kinda shared some of the more recent examples and some of the challenges they were having as their organization prepared for their inevitable return to work.

The organization is founder led and, and the founders intimately involved in day to day operations of the business. [00:21:00] And that same individual has a very specific. Traditional view of workforces and workforce composition. And doesn't really have a lot of time or patience for conversations that discuss things like work from home or diversity, equity and inclusion.

It's very much [00:21:20] this, like you, we're here to do a job, get the work done. People are kind of interchangeable. So there's a, a very strong, traditional tone around it. And after. Holding space and listening and, you know, giving her assurances around, you know, the paths, the paths forward for her, [00:21:40] and that the there's an opportunity in there to have that conversation with the founder and use it as an opportunity to educate and influence and provide information to.

There's also an opportunity for you to evaluate what's important for you. And I think that's a really tough question that a lot of senior leaders right now are asking themselves. [00:22:00] Mm-hmm particularly in HR roles where you're often privy to information that cuts to the core of an organization's ethics or at the very least it's leaders, ethics.

You're party to conversations that could involve people joining or leaving the organization and not always at their own discretion. [00:22:20] You're party to conversations around workforce composition and restructuring and realignments, mergers, and acquisitions. You often have advanced notice of information that can affect.

People in a very material way and to have to sit with that. And at the same time provide day to day service to your client groups and [00:22:40] to the broader organization is always a really tough challenge to balance. And it seems like particularly now it's a more difficult challenge. I'm not seeing the toxicity in the way that you've characterized it.

I'm seeing more of a frustration around. What did we really learn over the last two and a half years? If we went through [00:23:00] that, what was it for? Like what, what did we come away with for that sacrifice for those challenges for those long hours? I don't think Paul we've even close to paid the tab for the pandemic here where I'm living.

We're going through another wave. Of transmission. People are being encouraged to get booster shots [00:23:20] again. And while the world has returned to some form of normal, it's definitely not the way it once was. And when I talk to my friends and my colleagues and just people in and I come across there seems to be this collective.

I don't wanna say exhaustion. People are tired. It's been a tough stretch for a lot of people and to varying degrees some more than others. People are looking forward [00:23:40] to vacations and things returning to some normalcy. So I also find a factor, all that in as well. When I think about your question, I think it's more about what was this all for?

I mean, 

[00:23:52] Guest 1: again, there's a lot in what you've just said there. And I, you know, I will full disclosure caveat as I kind of bleed [00:24:00] into trying to kind of address some of those things. My high level message. And what I'm about to say is. I believe that we are. Conditioned by the narrative that we've had for well before COVID.

And so I think COVID has given us an opportunity to look through the looking glass, but if you've heard me [00:24:20] on any other podcasts or any other work I've done, or the, the, the round tables I do, or any of the work I do in leadership and leadership teams, I throw about this concept that I believe that we're in the matrix and what I'm, you know, and is interesting.

As soon as I started saying that few years ago, before COVID people were saying, you're crazy. You, you know, what are you talking [00:24:40] about? Your ideas are too radical. Three or four years later, I'm starting to see head speakers and famous New York times authors themselves leverage these terminologies that that once were dismissed by themselves.

And so the reason I say that Matt is. You know, I've reference to HR leader that you just, you just talked about, um, you know, balancing [00:25:00] their own ethical decisions with, with what seems like broader ethical, uh, conflicts with the organization that they're a part of. That example. I see it hundreds of times throughout, you know, the last two and a half years, I was even talking to a COO last night, who's having conflict with their CEO and different styles, [00:25:20] different engagement approaches.

But the one thing that they're not doing is creating the conditions to have honest conversations about the true extent of the, the dysfunction. So I know the word toxicity is kind of almost like. It's synonymous with, you know, how, how often we, we hear about the Kardashians that on social media, because every Tom Dick or [00:25:40] Harry is talking about toxicity, but what, what I want to be very clear on is frustration.

Starts the ball rolling about what causes and what creates toxicity. So that frustration then leads to something else, like, think about it as a scar tissue. So an injury, you don't work your, your pinky finger after an injury, [00:26:00] you develop scar tissue and then all of a sudden you've normalized it. Well, that's what we've done.

Matt. We've normalized the discussions that we are having, like, oh, of course. You know, how, how often do you hear things? Like, are you willing to die on a hill for. Or it'll never work. Or we tried that before, or we're exhausted, you know, with fatigue, like all of these things [00:26:20] that this vernacular that's characterizing our narrative in organizations from different sectors across the world.

This is what's causing us to not see the full extent. Of just how deep these challenges lie. So, so I, I kind of say that in, in, in all sincerity, from a position of [00:26:40] being a guide, rather than judging, because it's not my role to judge where people are at I'm, I'm actually starting to, to realize the full extent and the, the cost of these things on our organizations, on our approaches to leadership.

So, so I, I share that just from a place of, I believe there's appetite for change. I [00:27:00] believe there's a frustra. In the, in the world with how many people are out there now peddling their, their wares to help organizations in this field. And I think people are looking for a guide and some support and meeting them where they are on the journey.

It's okay. Where they are on the journey. And I guess my challenge to people listening to this [00:27:20] is it's time to wake up to, to the reality that things that. Developing perspectives around through research and adult stories. In my experience, working with hundreds of leadership teams around the world are, are showing me and very few of us wanna talk about it, Matt, we, we, we still wanna talk about the safe things and I think [00:27:40] it's not until we talk about the things that I'm safe, uncomfortable, that we truly evolve.

So I'll pause there before I kind of. Take us down a completely different path, which um, because I think we are at the precipice and right now is the time that I'm challenging the chief people, officers, the CHROs, the [00:28:00] VPs of HR, the heads of leadership development, the boards, the CEOs, the. Do you wanna take the blue pill or the red pill take the blue pill and you'll forget we ever talked and you'll carry on in your blind complacency.

And you'll, you'll attribute that the disengagement costs in your organization and turnover costs as well. That's just the way it is. People move on or not [00:28:20] really, or take the red pill and start to see. Really you finally say to you right now, it costs 200 to 400% of a leader's based salary to replace them whether they left or whether they're forced to leave, calculate the costs against your own P and L.

If you're in the HR world, listening to this, it's a lot of money walking out your door and [00:28:40] it's because of things that we're ignoring. It's because we wanna play it safe. I do. I do think COVID has given us an opportunity to, to press the reset button. In fact, I think COVID has given us the opportunity to, to ask ourselves what we want to be about.

And we have that opportunity every day. You know, the, the D and the five framework. One of the things I [00:29:00] write about in my first book is every morning you get up and you brush your. That's routine like clockwork, whilst you do that, you also have the opportunity to look in the mirror and ask yourself, am I willing to contribute to this again today?

Yes or no. And you make the choice and everybody's at a different point in their lives. Of [00:29:20] course. So there are some little things, small things we can do every day to shift our relationship with this, this thing that I'm talking about, that no one wants to talk. Yeah, there 

[00:29:31] Matt: is obviously significant value in addressing some of the root causes that you've brought up.

I mean, clearly we can't address symptoms [00:29:40] if the core issues that are the foundation in which all these things are built on are not in themselves being addressed. And it is surprising to me that. The shared experience that we've had, that some individuals still see three, see things through a different lens around things like trust and [00:30:00] innovation, and just evolving our thinking for a world that at least at this point is very difficult to quantify output.

For the majority of people that are operating or living in roles that are let's call them knowledge based roles. So anybody working in a corporate office, [00:30:20] anybody who's a freelancer or a consultant or a manager, people that are providing value to organizations that may or may not be visible. They don't have a direct sales quota.

They don't have hiring targets. They don't have productivity or output measures that are easy to quantify. So for the individuals in [00:30:40] those roles, we, at this point, as far as I know, haven't developed a very sophisticated system that says this marketing manager is more effective than this marketing manager.

Unless we look at some of the downstream impacts. Of their work. So for example, perhaps different in the case of one marketing manager, [00:31:00] some of their campaigns may have outperformed others compared to the marketing manager, B who has had different campaigns, but there are enough variables that it would be hard to isolate the performance of one individual in roles like that.

And yet we also understand that we can men measure and [00:31:20] manage to outputs deliverables and. We don't need to look over somebody's shoulder to know if they've delivered a project on time or not met a client's expectation or not. Those are very easy to measure and manage and track in a world where a lot of other things are very difficult to track.

So [00:31:40] we also have to be mindful of and cognizant of. And just be real about the fact that the available workforce is shrinking demographically speaking. There are less people who are employed today than there was yesterday, and there'll be less tomorrow than there was today. And that trend's gonna continue for the next 30 plus years.

It's I'm [00:32:00] not, that's not me. You know, reading through the tea leaves. That's science, it's demographics. People who are 40 today will be 60 in 20 years. So we know the available workforce number is going to shrink. For the individuals who believe that, well, if somebody leaves, we'll just replace them. That is gonna become less and less of a true [00:32:20] statement.

And in particular, for roles that have highly specialized, whether it's nurses or doctors or teachers, or full stack developers or data scientists, those, those roles that are very hard to find now will only become more difficult in the future. So removing the requirement to have people sit in an office five days a week, [00:32:40] isn't just an employee per.

It might become business necessity and it might happen a lot faster than people think it will and steps that we're advocating for, whether they're transitions in leadership, in your realm, or in my case, transitions in technology and by extension leadership. These are activities that organizations need to undertake.

If [00:33:00] they're going to have longevity or they'll be facing an uphill battle for the duration of their time on this planet. And that's not. You know, advocating for one over another, we're just using numbers and just literally putting the conversation on the table. What got us here unfortunately, is not gonna get us to the next place because the [00:33:20] conditions are very, very different and the expectations are different.

So. I'm I'm mindful of that. Paul, when I think about the challenges faced by leaders, it's not just that they have to evolve and grow to meet the market. They're having to evolve and grow within themselves to meet the changing markets. So I think an honest question would be is for those who are [00:33:40] listening, who've heard you.

And I speaking about these topics, where do you start? Like if you go, okay, I get it, Paul, I get it, Matt, like, stop it. You've sold me. I figured it out. I, I need to do something different for myself and my organization. What's the first step I should. Mm, 

[00:33:55] Guest 1: well, without, without sounding how this is gonna sound, look [00:34:00] in the mirror.

First thing is to look in the mirror and to see the role that you've played in it in this not you as a you, but the one who's asking this question, you know, I think we all have to acknowledge the role that we've played in normalizing things that have. Uh, ineffective, unsustainable. I mean, [00:34:20] just as you're talking about the available workforce shrinking, you know, I've got, I've got all sorts of research and stats in, in the work I do to corroborate that and you know, to, to show that and the effect of that over time, you know, one of the things just to.

Not be the hammer that, that hammers this point home, but the future leadership, um, pool of talent [00:34:40] is going to become more and more focused on millennials and the generation that are coming after millennials. I can categorically. Tell you right now from research that, that I've seen is that type of category.

If you like, doesn't want the way it's been right now through COVID into mix, [00:35:00] it's just accelerated that conversation to, to have sooner on the later we, you know, I'm personally, I'm a gen X. And so, you know, my generation is still very much at the four of leadership roles in organizations today, but we'll.

Tailor towards the end of that. Uh, you know, our journey at some point, baby boomers are [00:35:20] on the way out. I mean, I, I predicted, and I was talking about this 20 years ago, um, that why weren't executives doing succession planning to incorporate this into their talent management and workforce strategies?

People thought I was crazy. It'll never happen. They said it's happened. Look at the effects of it. And we're still seeing it right now. So this is a kind of [00:35:40] a big beacon to those out there that are listening. Pay attention to what the people that are telling you that they want, and don't want pay attention to that data.

If they're leaders. Now, if they're not leaders, it doesn't matter pay attention. The, the one constant that I've seen that over all organizations I've serve is the, the low employee engagement [00:36:00] scores. Right? So if you wanna talk about metrics as a way to measure this, why is it year on year? Employee engagement surveys are still churning out the same, maybe one or two percentage points up or down, but the point is still the same things aren't improving.

If you wanna really look at why they're not improving, look at that data, mind that data sort [00:36:20] out, focus groups with people who contribute, but guess what? Very few people wanna tell you their name when they're contributing to employee engagement surveys, because they're scared, they're fearful. And what that speaks to is the lack of trust in organizations.

And until or less, we talk about that. So that's one thing you can do right now. You know, one of my [00:36:40] clients who was a senior V uh, VP in a fi one of Canada's largest, uh, wealth management organizations. Uh, they were a, um, uh, a beta reader for my first book, which was great, you know, Frank to get a perspective from people really in the trenches.

And I have this tool called name, what you see moments with leadership [00:37:00] teams. And I basically, as it suggests, basically, if you're having your team meeting each one of you in turn name, what you see in your team around. Function toxicity, whatever label you wanna put on it, right. That you're not getting on as a team name it, put it out in the middle of the room room and then get everybody to vote on which one of [00:37:20] those moments you want to address as a team?

When this individual did that, she improved productivity in her leadership team within a month by almost 25. Now, this is anecdotal. This is, this is one story, one narrative. But imagine if you force multiplied that map, imagine if one, if, if [00:37:40] a hundred chief people, officers heard this and encouraged their leadership.

Teams to do this, you'd start to see real data, which guess what would would then funnel through to improving your engagement scores? So it's gonna take time. There's no magic answer. There's no magic, but at least what we can do is [00:38:00] have a, a bigger impact over time. But seem to be a smaller step in the right direction.

And it's all it all hinges on our ability to be aware, to wake up and to have the courage, to do something, do one thing and see what impact that has. So that's what, you know, my initial kind of thinking from what you were, you were saying, then [00:38:20] I know we don't have time to, to, to explode what I'm about to say.

Maybe that's another conversation with me or another guest. Organizations of the future that are still focusing on outdated metrics as a way to go get ahead of their competition and still talk about performance management and role profiles and all this. They're not, they're not seeing the [00:38:40] trends that I'm seeing.

Future organizational structures will not be based around these things and people, I can hear them saying I'm mad that will never work well. They said the same about stuff. I was doing three or four years ago and look what's happening. The world 

[00:38:55] Matt: has certainly changed and it's gonna continue to evolve.

And it's people like [00:39:00] yourself, Paul, to help us build a bridge between the two. Thanks so much for joining us today on the conversation. I, uh, look forward to keeping in touch and keeping this chat going offline. 

[00:39:08] Guest 1: Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for being brave enough to have me in my radical ideas, which are not so radical.

On your, on your, um, show so much appreciated.[00:39:20] 

[00:39:28] Matt: Ohr is a digital transformation consultancy working at the intersection of strategy technology and people operations. We partner with organizations, private equity and venture capital firms to accelerate value [00:39:40] creation. And identify the organization's highest leverage initiatives. And this can take place in many forms from strategic planning and alignment to technology, procurement, implementation, and integration, along with organizational design process reengineering and change management.

With our proven track record [00:40:00] of working with complex high growth organizations, we provide a lens that goes beyond the balance sheet, increasing enterprise readiness, resilience, and value. For more information, check us out@bentohr.com.