How Workplace Fear Affects Our Future - Steve Prentice

In today’s episode, I chat with Steve Prentice - speaker, published author, writer, and university lecturer. Steve’s main areas of focus include: cyber-security, the future of work, technology and people - fertile ground for a rich discussion.

We started, as is custom on this podcast, with Steve’s story. One made all the more interesting by his years as a digital nomad & traveling musician. Though the discussion quickly pivoted to Steve’s fourth book, entitled: The Future of Workplace Fear – How Human Reflex Stands in the Way of Digital Transformation.

We dug deeper into that topic, discussing how the demands and expectations of modern employees have changed in the past 5 years, and ultimately what it means for each of us. 

We discussed how best to address and manage fear of change individually and how managers can prepare themselves for the new normal. 

And we chatted at length about the intersection of human behavior and technology, a topic that’s particularly close to my heart. And I really wanted to hear Steve’s perspective as a professional who not only talks the talk, but walks the walk. 

It was such a pleasure connecting with Steve. And I hope you enjoy it.



Steve Prentice

Steve is a specialist in organizational psychology, with his focus being the junction where people and technology interact. He helps the various branches of an organization (C-suite, IT, HR, and employees) understand each other as well as the technologies they face, and the changes that these present. He works as a speaker, author, consultant and writer, with clients ranging from Cisco and SAP to branches of government, healthcare, occupational health and safety, startups and entrepreneurs. He is regularly called upon by media to explain issues dealing with cyber-security, AI, blockchain and the future of work.

 He is a regular lecturer at the Management Development Center at Ontario Tech University, where he teaches courses related to Workplace Innovation, Management Excellence, and Continuous Improvement. Steve has also been a performing musician since the age of 16 and delivers a solo act of 70's soft rock to corporate audiences and private parties as a solo artist and also with the band Absolutely Jack.

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Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Guest 1: So when managers are able to recognize these, these possibilities, I think that may help in the transition. And again, show them that this trans, this digital transformation is not gonna be, what is it gonna do to me? But actually, yes. What it will do for me and for my team[00:00:20] 

[00:00:32] Matt: constraints drive in. Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of Thinking Inside the Box, a show where we discuss [00:00:40] complex issues related to work and culture. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us@bentohr.com or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. By searching, thinking inside the box.

And if you enjoy the work we're doing here, consider leaving us a five star rating, a comment and [00:01:00] striving. It ensures you get updated whenever we release new content and really helps amplify our message. In today's episode, I chat with Steve Prentice, speaker, published author, writer, and university lecturer.

Steve's main areas of focus include cybersecurity, the future of work, [00:01:20] and the intersection of technology and people fertile ground for a very rich discussion. We started as is custom on this podcast. With Steve's story, one made all the more interesting by his years as a digital nomad and traveling musician.

Though the discussion quickly pivoted to [00:01:40] Steve's fourth book entitled The Future of Workplace Fear, How Human Reflex stands in the Way of Digital Transformation. We dug really deep into that topic, discussing how the demands and expectations of modern employees and leaders have materially changed in the last five years, and ultimately what it [00:02:00] means for each of us.

We discuss how best to address and manage fear of change individually and as managers, how we can prepare ourselves and our teams for the new. And we chatted at length about the intersection of human behavior and technology, a topic that's very close to my heart, [00:02:20] and I really wanted to hear Steve's perspective as a professional who not only talks the talk, though, also walks the walk.

It was a real pleasure connecting with Steve and I hope you enjoy it. And now I bring you Steve Prentice. Hello, Steve. How are you doing today? 

[00:02:36] Guest 1: Oh, I'm great Matt, how about yourself? Hey, I 

[00:02:38] Matt: have no complaints and I'm [00:02:40] excited for our conversation. The intersection of technology and people is a topic that we've discussed a lot on this podcast and I'm in.

I'm interested in your opinion on it. Before we get there, Steve, though, I'd love to hear a bit more about your background. Your experiences and 

[00:02:53] Guest 1: what led you to today? Yeah. Well basically it was one of those things where I just found a need and, uh, decided to go and fill it. When I was a [00:03:00] student in undergrad, I was, uh, you know, just working jobs as everyone has to do.

And, uh, I was doing a lot of database stuff, so computer based stuff and wherever I was working, I was working with people who didn't get it. They didn't understand how this technology was working. Now, I gotta take you back. This is like early nineties. Okay. Uh, quite a while back, but it's still the same [00:03:20] problem we're having today.

Back then it was people not sure, you know, does a document save when I press this button? What happens if it doesn't? How do I make this thing work? There was an enormous amount of fear around how to use this technology, uh, which was not really written in by the developers and the programmers of, of the code.

And this is the, the gap that I [00:03:40] found was the people who designed the technology, which I love. I love technology, but there's a gap between that and the perception of the end. So I thought, Hey, there's something I can, I can explain this, uh, in a way that seems to work. So there must be a need. And basically, I've been pursuing that for 25 years now.

We've gone from word perfect to blockchain [00:04:00] and cybersecurity. That's, that's the only difference. But the same fear exists. 

[00:04:04] Matt: You talk about the fear as a misalignment between the creator and the user, and over, as you mentioned, over the last 25 years, the technologies have evolved, but not necessarily that relationship.

Why do you think 

[00:04:16] Guest 1: that is? There's a, a number of reasons. One is economic. I [00:04:20] mean, uh, people keep pushing new technologies, new improvements, which is a good thing. Uh, the technology itself continues to rise on a sort of a, an exponential curve. The more we can do, the more we can create. Uh, but human beings aren't evolving as quickly.

We're still using the same kind of wiring internally that we've had for hundreds of thousands of years. So that's [00:04:40] where the disconnect happens. It's inevitable that technology will continue to improve. We go, went from the typewriter to the fax machine to you know, what we have now in terms of communicating anywhere in the world via Bluetooth and other things instantaneously.

It's fantastic to watch, but the pace and the expectation that people are able to take it on and use [00:05:00] it effectively and without mistakes. Is sort of like a, an assumption that is made on the part of, of, of management or on the part of the organizations that yeah, everyone's gonna get used to this real quick and not a problem, but there is a problem and that's where we fall into a big crack.

Well, and 

[00:05:17] Matt: to that point, there's an irony around. [00:05:20] An individual in so far as our expectations around innovation and change. So to your point, Steve, as the, as the consumer, I want innovation and change quickly. I want the latest iPhone, I want the, the latest virtual reality headset. I want to be involved, the leading edge of technology.

As an [00:05:40] employee, I actually don't want things to change that much inside my organization. I'm pretty comfortable right now. I have enough on my plate. Um, so it's interesting that we have this from a consumer lens, this, this desire and this hunger for newness and innovation. And as an employee we have this almost, I would say, almost feared to a certain point.

Yeah. And I'm curious 

[00:05:57] Guest 1: if you've seen evidence of that. Absolutely. And I, I [00:06:00] refer to this as the barrier of fear or the fear barrier in the sense that, as you said, as an individual consumer, as an individual person, um, nobody ever forced you to buy a smartphone. Nobody ever forced you to go onto Facebook or Instagram.

And I often use the history of Facebook as an example of this. I mean, it's become, you know, an enormous meta thing that it now is. But when Facebook [00:06:20] was. Coming onto the scene. Um, they didn't have to advertise. People just simply flocked to it at the sheer personal fascination of being able to connect with, uh, high school friends, uh, throw sheep at them and stuff.

But it was, it was a fascinating, interesting thing based on our human desire to communicate and connect. There was a very low barrier to fear because you just simply went [00:06:40] on and tried it. You couldn't really make a mistake. But when you're at work, work is where you get paid and what you get paid for is to survive, you know, to pay for your house, pay for where you live, your food, and so forth.

That has a much bigger, um, sort of quid pro quo here that if I make a mistake at work, then my job is at stake, and then my [00:07:00] livelihood is at stake. And that is a whole more serious, much more serious game. So that's where I would put this, this fear barrier is that personal things, if you wanna choose an Xbox and, and have fun, uh, with entertainment concepts, That's your choice.

That's, that's fun. But when it comes down to looking stupid in front of the boss, cuz you, you lost a document or you [00:07:20] just don't get what, what was taught to you in the six hour training session you just took that now threatens your career. And that's a whole big thing. And of course, as you know, As soon as fear descends upon yourself, your capacity to think clearly diminishes even further.

So it becomes a very, um, sort of, uh, destructive spiral. The more you fear, the [00:07:40] less you can handle it. And this is where people get into the problems that we, that I, I see, you know, on a regular basis. Well, 

[00:07:47] Matt: and we see it in a number of different lenses. I can speak from a, you know, an individual who has professional services, um, amongst my many, um, areas of business.

And fear also plays into the role around acquisition of consulting [00:08:00] firms. I mean, there's this age old adage of, you know, no one's ever got fired for hiring Deloitte as an example. Um, and then when you work with smaller boutique organizations that may not have the track record or the credibility or the brand recognition, There can be this fear around the unknown.

So I, you see it in a number of different contexts. I'm curious, Steve, as we discussed more about the idea of fear [00:08:20] as a decision making, um, influence or otherwise, what changes have you seen over the last five years in 

[00:08:25] Guest 1: particular? I think that the most significant change is just simply speed. Uh, things are just moving extremely quickly for a lot of people who, you know, who would rather take a little bit more time to learn how it's done change.

Uh, there's also, of course, you know, we've. Outside of the realm of [00:08:40] technology, we're just seeing this re remarkable change in terms of polarization, of popularity, of, of populations, you know, a lot of life changes that are happening around us. So we cannot, we cannot rate our life right now as we would've done 10 or 20 years ago in terms of generations or in five year blocks.

Uh, things are moving much more. Quickly than that. The very [00:09:00] last keynote speech that I gave prior to the Covid lockdown, I think it was January, 2020, I used to do a standup kind of a joke, talking about TikTok and then sort of making an aside saying, What's TikTok? Because nobody in the audience had ever heard of it.

And here we are two years later or so, and it's now the, the dominant source of news for good half of the [00:09:20] population who get their world news from influencers and friends on TikTok, not from the six o'clock newscast. So things are changing in a much. Faster and more intense, uh, component, whereas we know a mistake can go around the world in seconds and stay there forever.

So you say one thing wrong on social media, that could be the end of your job as [00:09:40] well, and many careers have been ended through just a flippant tweet of some sort. So the, the pace of the information that is going to and from us. Change both in speed and in volume. And that's what I think people are struggling with.

Um, even if you like it, I mean, even if you are comfortable with this, there's a notion of the temptation [00:10:00] of reading your phone until you literally fall asleep at night, which has significant physical impacts on your vision system, on the way you process information on your circadian rhythm. It's not just simply about the information, it's, it's the interaction this has with.

Physical and physiological self, these things are changing. And remember, I'm not saying this cause I think it's all bad. [00:10:20] I'm just simply saying we need to be aware of this. 

[00:10:22] Matt: Oh, I think you're raising a number of really valid points. I think most people, if it took a second to consider it, would appreciate that our brains were not meant to ingest this much information nor the breadth of it.

And, you know, as a species, as a, you know, as a culture, don't always do the best job of synthesizing and curating ideas either. [00:10:40] Um, you know, I, I think a lot of. What we're still learning. You know, I use the, you know, term quite loosely. What we're learning are things that we've probably accepted as, as fact quite some time ago.

I mean, this, the concept of, of the pandemic being a, a catalyzer of change inside of organizations or inside broader culture is really bringing us to a place where, uh, people are kind of [00:11:00] catching up. As it were when it comes to things like remote work or, you know, more flat levels of leadership or, um, more intentional life design as kind of that, that line between work and home becomes, you know, even more blur than it was 

[00:11:15] Guest 1: before the pandemic.

You're exactly right. In so many areas there, I mean, the first thing that you were [00:11:20] saying made me think about the fact. There's a lot of people who, uh, for years have printed out their emails and they, they couldn't understand why. They, they get an email and printed on paper and they say, I don't know why I do this, but I'd just like to do it.

And I said, It's because your, your body is designed to, to process information through reflected light reading off paper surfaces, not reading from a light source. And there's a whole significant [00:11:40] change in the way this information is processed when you read from a light. Uh, so these, these are sort of physiological, uh, invisibility.

People aren't aware of the fact that a word is not the same as another word if one's on paper and one's on screen. But then when you fast forward, that's to the pandemic. And the fact that now everybody discovered that to some degree or other many [00:12:00] jobs can be done from someplace other than the traditional office, you now get a whole reevaluation of what life means.

That, you know, spending one or two or three hours per day commuting is useless. If I could do the same work from where I currently am, paired with the fear on the other side of managers suddenly saying, Where's my team? [00:12:20] Where's my company, Where's my stature? As a manager, I'm losing that. And so you've got fear on both sides.

Even with this amazing progress, I think that for those who are able to work from home all or part of the time and for whom, uh, this is an enjoyable thing, a life quality thing, it's, it's an amazing development that that has just started and we just, we're [00:12:40] just watching the dividends happening Now, 

[00:12:42] Matt: Steve, I wanna take you back about 20 years.

I was just starting my kind of career path. Stepping into my first corporate job in an office environment, and I was in an HR department on a term-based employment covering off for maternity leave and really just a finding my way into kind of [00:13:00] a corporate climate in particular. But also figuring out how I was gonna interact in a new profession for myself, One for which I had lots of leadership experience and management experience in an operational context, but didn't have any HR background.

And it didn't take me very long to realize that the way I had viewed the world was different. [00:13:20] Than the way that my new colleagues viewed the world, even though we'd been on two different parts of the same business. Mm-hmm. and specifically around technology. I remember my very first job that I was assigned was, Hey Matt.

Um, you know, we're glad to have hired you because we have a backlog of, of paperwork at Administrivia that we need [00:13:40] somebody to do, and it's your first day. So guess who's drawn that short straw. And I was given a stack, probably two or three feet high of paper that needed to be filed into filing cabinets and.

This was the, you know, going into employee files, everything from, you know, performance documents to benefits, [00:14:00] forms to, you know, um, offer letters, any type of administrative that you could think of that involves employees in employment context and. I was sitting there filing one page after the night, or going between aisles trying to look for the right filing cabinet with the right last name and the right folder.

Um, and just thinking to myself, this has gotta be a better way [00:14:20] of doing this. I own a cell phone. Like there's, we can move information digitally. Why are we still insisting on these kind of standup filing cabinets? And when I sat down and talked about this with one of my bosses, it was simply a conversation of, well, the, the, the move to digital.

Felt inhuman. [00:14:40] The move to digital felt counter to a cultural belief that if we're gonna be a human resources department, we need to be human centric. And technology is the antithesis of anything that's human centric. So that's why we have filing cabinets. And this showed up not only in filing, but also in in learning, in recruitment.

In compensation, this, [00:15:00] this general resistance and fear around technology. Um, and I say the word fear intentionally because at times, while it was presented as an altruistic um, measure, it really did at the time feel a lot like fear, a lot. Like we're not sure how we're gonna be able to show the same kind of [00:15:20] value how we're gonna show up in this world.

That's. Augmented or complemented by technology. And I'm curious, when you talk about fear, you know, how do we look at managing it at that individual level, and then how does that translate 

[00:15:34] Guest 1: to the collective level? Yeah, that's an, that's an excellent point. And I was just thinking how, uh, again, from a purely tangible, [00:15:40] uh, standpoint, how wonderful those heavily laden filing cabinets were when you rolled them out on their wall bearings.

It was a nice tangible feeling to those. But yeah, that's the past. And the thing is that whether it's a human being individually or as a group or as a company, Uh, there is that, that concern about the fear of the unknown, you know, the fear of change. Um, people generally approach [00:16:00] change by saying, not, not as, not what this is gonna do for me, but what is it gonna do to me?

How is this gonna affect me negatively? So if you have many decades of, of collective corporate experience in shuffling paper and basically yeah, your, your company is based on paper. It's a very scary thing to think about putting that all. There may be a trust issue with regards to, is digital [00:16:20] truly that safe?

You know, what happens if it all gets deleted? But there's also just the, simply the, the procedural issue of this is how we've always done things. Uh, and so not having paper and flipping over to digital just does not feel right. And so, yes, I can, you know, I can dress it up in terms of saying this doesn't feel human or even humane to treat our customers this.

So it's a very natural [00:16:40] thing that all managers in any industry, and especially those in HR, must be rec, you know, cognizant of is that human beings will respond to change always in the concept of what is this gonna do to affect me negatively? Because that's a purely instinctive thing. The unknown represents danger, even on the most primordial level.

If you were to, uh, [00:17:00] you know, walk through a forest at. You know, your instincts are gonna say, Hey, this is a dangerous place. I can't see anything. Uh, I don't know what's around that next tree or corner. We gotta get outta here. And the same instinct speaks to any change in the, in the workplace, in the organization.

So indeed, especially for highly regulated organizations or those for whom. Paper and filing [00:17:20] cabinets was a tangible proof of your presence and of safety and security. It's a huge leap to move to digital, even though now of course, any of those organizations will say, No, we do everything digitally because, you know, we have learned over the last 20 years that it does actually work.

Just, uh, 

[00:17:38] Matt: you. Hey [00:17:40] everyone. It's Matt here. I hope you're enjoying today's discuss. And before we continue, I want to make you aware of my latest creative project this week at Work presented in partnership with my good friend Chris Rainey of HR Leaders. Each Friday will live stream on LinkedIn at 7:00 AM Pacific Standard Time.

That's 10:00 AM Eastern [00:18:00] Standard Time and 3:00 PM GMT for our European viewers, and together bringing the latest trends, news on topics emanating from organizations, everything from culture to technology and the future of work. Joining is easy. Just follow me on LinkedIn. Click the bell at the top right hand side of my profile and [00:18:20] you'll get notified when we go live each week.

And whether you do experience the content live or later, if you've been following me for a while, you'll no doubt recognize the fun banter Chris and I have developed over the years and whether it's been podcasts or digital events. We're so excited to, again, bring you the topics affecting today's workplaces and their leaders.[00:18:40] 

And now back to our discussion.

[00:18:44] Guest 1: And, and if I can add one more thing to this, you know, you there on your first day. As the, as the new person having to do this stuff, Um, yeah, that's not exactly what your career aspirations were, uh, but you did it because it was the job. Now, however, we [00:19:00] are seeing a whole mindset shift, especially amongst our youngest professionals in their twenties who are gonna say, No, um, that's not what my job is.

I want more than this from the very beginning. And if this is what you're going to, uh, expect of me in my first rookie years to just shuffle paper. I'm moving somewhere else cause I know there's something better out there. And that is a huge, significant change that we've seen in the last [00:19:20] five. 

[00:19:20] Matt: It is absolutely a change and because of broader demographics is gonna continue to be the reality as opportunities outnumber the people to acquire them and to be able to work in them.

And it's going to be a new reality for everybody, both in an individual context, whether you are a senior [00:19:40] executive or an employee. What I think about most though, Steve, when I think about this new world we're entering into and the the changing paradigm that you referenced is those managers in the. The individuals who may not be at the top of the host making the most strategic of decisions around finances and growth and you know, contraction and mergers and all that kind of [00:20:00] fun stuff.

And the individuals who are individual contributors, the individuals that are in that mid-level management group are often the ones who wear a lot of the change because they're at the point at which most organ. Companies, most employees, sorry, in the company interact with the organization. So I'm curious about [00:20:20] what your thoughts are 

[00:20:21] Guest 1: on managers.

Yes. That, that is a group that, that is facing probably the most significant amount of change because, uh, as you said, I mean individual workers, um, can redefine their value statements and as they up their skills and, you know, even decide where they wish to work. Senior management usually have some degrees of, of comfort and protection in the, [00:20:40] in the, in the, the stratified place at the top.

Middle managers have to do, have to reassess what it is that they actually do. Uh, you know, a manager can say in a traditional, uh, you know, brick and mortar office, glass and steel office. Well, I look after my team, you know, I can walk the halls. I can call meetings, I can interact with them. But I do a lot of work in this area, Matt, and one of the things.[00:21:00] 

Always comes out as a constant complaint is that most people who leave jobs outta frustration, you've already heard this expression before. They don't quit their job, they quit their manager. There's something about the relationship that is not satisfying. It may not necessarily be toxic and hostile. It may simply be a frustration that the biggest, single biggest complaint that employees have as they leave.

Is [00:21:20] that I couldn't get any work done. I was constantly being interrupted by the manager. So it means that managers are need to now reassess. Even the most well-intentioned, uh, you know, uh, empathetic managers have to reassess what it is they actually do to generate that team cohesiveness that creates the output that is, that exceeds the number, right?

So you've got a team of people who does, who [00:21:40] do things that exceeds a number of individual people that. Um, this is a significant test for them because they've been defining themselves through their physical presence, calling meetings, physically, being there, doing, you know, even having the one-on-one conversations and feedback sessions in a person.

So over the last year or more, I've been spending a lot of time ask, answering the question of, you know, why working [00:22:00] from home or virtual environments will never work because we need people to be back at the office, to be spontaneous, to be creative, and to have that. My opinion is the opposite. There's nothing that you cannot do in a virtual environment, uh, that that could be done back at the office, uh, including.

The one-on-ones, the conversations and this, this [00:22:20] servant leadership that, that well-intentioned managers aspire to practice. People have all grown tired largely of video chats using things like Zoom and Google Meet because that's version 1.0, very static, very dry, kind of like what music videos were back in the early 1990s.

Um, but we are evolving into a virtual [00:22:40] environment that has far more. Interactive presence than just simply the formality of cold meetings. And astute managers are gonna say, Hey, here's my opportunity to do all the things that managers are supposed to do in terms of pulling a team together without excessive interruptions and distractions.

Uh, so this is a really [00:23:00] big catharsis for people in middle management. To completely redefine what it is they do, uh, and realign with what the ultimate objectives were, which was to have a team that can pro produce and perform in an excellent way. To me, I think this is a wonderful opportunity rather than a threat to this particular group.

[00:23:19] Matt: [00:23:20] I share your optimism and I share the belief around it being an opportu. And having spent 15 years in corporate HR environments, I can appreciate why this is a good segue from fear. There's a lot of leaders out there that, to your point, have never really been asked to show up like this, that may have been promoted [00:23:40] because of.

Really high level of individual contributor performance. They may have been the, the highest degree of technical expert. They may have had the most amount of seniority or tenure in the role. Uh, there could be a number of reasons why the individual is in a leadership role, but has never really had leadership level coaching and support and counsel.

Yes. And now having to [00:24:00] shift into a role where that becomes a, the dominant part of your job. I could appreciate how that would be a really steep learning curve. And to your point earlier, You're not having to learn this over a medium for which, in this case, technology that you're not comfortable using as an individual either.

So if all those things conspired and make this be a really uncomfortable [00:24:20] situation, how should managers prepare themselves 

[00:24:23] Guest 1: for this new normal? I think managers can prepare the same way that they should encourage their employees, uh, which is to, to continue to learn on an ongoing basis. Uh, if, for example, as I said before, if, if the notion.

Virtual meetings, you know, virtual room scares [00:24:40] you or repulses you, cause it doesn't sound or doesn't feel human again. Once again, going back to that same filing cabinet analogy, it just doesn't seem real to have people hanging around in a virtual space. Um, Okay, I agree with that. I, I understand that, but, A hundred years ago, I could have been saying the same thing when I showed you a thing called a telephone and you say, This doesn't seem real.

To have a person's voice inside this [00:25:00] handset. They're not really there. How can I get used to this? We get used to it because as soon as it starts to demonstrate it, it's it's value. It becomes now, uh, a useful appliance. Basically, if one of the key tenets of, of the book is always about if you don't know something and you fear it, then it's your job to know it, to learn [00:25:20] what is it I need to know about this?

Uh, so if I don't know enough about how. Other organizations are successfully using virtual environments to continue to thrive and to to excel, then I need to learn. It does obviously exist, so that's what I would say to them is if you don't know something, then you are far better off to [00:25:40] learn. Than to defend against the change, To fight against the change and try and keep things the way they were.

Um, many of us have seen that the TV series, the Office, and I only wanna delve into one very brief thing there, which is the, the notion that, that the Michael Scott character used to just call meetings whenever. So everyone in the boardroom now meeting, that is a classic example of the kind of, of, [00:26:00] of both interruptive culture and also a, a very transparent leader.

That doesn't have any substance behind it that many managers have, have drifted into. And you're totally right. It isn't always their fault. People who have been promoted into a management, uh, level because of either seniority or because they did a great job as a subject matter expert, suddenly [00:26:20] find that being a manager isn't what they ever thought it would be.

Now they're managing people rather than looking after the expertise that they spent their career crafting. And I have consulted to, on an individual basis, counseled individual managers who, for whom this has been a. Their goal was to climb the ladder, and they only find out that these rungs of the ladder aren't where they wanna be.

[00:26:40] So I sympathize enormously with managers who must redefine their role. Or to put it more clearly the, the techniques by which they can support that role. But I would say to them that by working, uh, and to, to learn, let's say how a virtual environment can actually benefit their [00:27:00] team, um, not only does it give them far greater skills and time efficiency, but the loyalty and, and en engagement that they're gonna generate with their employees, with their workers.

Is far, far more valuable than forcing them to drag themselves back into a workplace. Now that they know that there's an option out there, there's another [00:27:20] choice. 

[00:27:20] Matt: It's gonna require shifts on a part of a lot of different players in the context of organizations. And I think about as we have this conversation, Steve, the, the migration from you met referenced this earlier, the being rewarded for presenteeism.

We're now shifting to a world where outputs really are the, the way, the [00:27:40] best method. To look at value contributions, uh, to an organization, and that will also scare a lot of people for a couple of reasons. First, for leaders, those leaders who may have struggled in the past to effectively lead their teams may actually not have the basic skills of bound delegation [00:28:00] and following up and managing performance, and may have to.

Stretch themselves to do that more 

[00:28:04] Guest 1: effectively. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. And that is, uh, that is sort of a, a quantum shift for them to sort of say, Well, my goodness, I gotta redefine. I don't have those skills. I've never needed them, and I look bad in my own eyes for not having those skills.

And so it, it's, the [00:28:20] fear is also sort of a self-recrimination for the fact that I don't have those skills that now I realize I must have. But that's, that's what progress is, that's what evolution is. And I think that, again, can be greeted as a far more. Um, enthusiastic situation than, than threats to their existence.

[00:28:35] Matt: Yeah, and to your point, it's a mindset shift around looking at the upside of the [00:28:40] change. And for every person that talks about this being inhuman or not being as good as being in the same space, there's another person saying, Wow, it's so nice to be involved in the convers. I couldn't, I wasn't able to be involved before for reasons of geography [00:29:00] or cost or status or position or ability.

Um, the opportunity to use this kind of migration as it were to digital allows us to be a lot more inclusive. To gather a lot more opinions and to get a lot more perspectives and ultimately broaden the, the amount of inputs we look at when we make [00:29:20] really impactful decisions that affect all of us. I think that's a real positive of the 

[00:29:24] Guest 1: shift.

Oh, absolutely, and, And these are probably the things that maybe managers aren't aware of fully because they're viewing things again with their perspective of the past, which. Defining work by the people that they've currently employed, which are a certain kind of people with a certain kind of education and a certain kind of [00:29:40] income already, to allow them to physically travel to an office and physically be part of that office.

A lot of people have been left out of that circle, those who've got economic situations that make it not possible to travel. Into, you know, from, from where they live into downtown core or perhaps family obligations with children or elder parents that they're, they're caring for [00:30:00] also. Uh, if English is not your first language, this is something that's been a significant barrier to participation, uh, for people who are looking to, to create their, their career and, and to succeed as they have the right to do.

These are the kinds of technologies now that allow, uh, a manager to say, Well, we can widen our team to people who can, [00:30:20] uh, work remote. Which fits far better with their domestic responsibilities. Integrating these two things together rather than keeping them apart like oil and water, and again, with AI based technologies that can simultaneously translate from any language to English or whatever the, the language of your business happens to be.

This is an incredible [00:30:40] inclusivity opportunity, uh, for managers who are again looking. Pulling together talent and generating that wonderful synergy. These are all buzzwords, of course, but they have legitimacy to get people to work together, not just simply the the die cast cutout typical employee that we've had for the last 70 years.

So when [00:31:00] managers are able to recognize these, these possibilities, I think that may help in the transit. And again, show them that this transi, this digital transformation is not gonna be, what is it gonna do to me? But actually, yes. What it will do for me and for my team, Steve, 

[00:31:15] Matt: one of the things we referenced earlier was the fact that [00:31:20] individuals are now inundated with information and responsibilities.

I have yet met somebody in the past couple of years who said, You know what, I'm kind of bored. Everyone's got a full plate and then some. And while all our plates look different, I think it's fair to suggest that most of us have taken on more in the last couple of years than we had before the pandemic.

Um, whether that's personal [00:31:40] responsibility, professional responsibility, responsibility to ourselves, um, it's definitely changed a lot of people's perspectives, if not most people's perspectives are out themselves and how they interact in the world and. One of the things I hear a lot in talking with friends and family and people on this podcast is this general sense of, to your point, [00:32:00] change is happening so quickly.

This sense of having challenges and keeping up what we're talking about in today's conversation, you and I is really asking people to make a fundamental shift in how they look at the world and themselves in it, which is not a trivial ask. and is is really significant in the context of people who already, as I [00:32:20] mentioned, have exceptionally full lives.

As we're talking about making this transition ourselves and helping other people in our communities, how can we be looking at this in from a perspective of first steps? So let's say we acknowledge there's an opportunity here. Let's just say we acknowledge that we, we have an opportunity to lean more [00:32:40] into digital transformation as a means of improving our lives, both professionally and personally.

What would should my first step be in 

[00:32:47] Guest 1: taking that path? My suggestion for the first step is to get off that hamster wheel. Uh, we have been conditioned to this hamster wheel mentality for so much of our, our professional lives, and even school lives beyond that. You must always be busy. You're no one.

You're [00:33:00] no one if you're not busy all the time. And that keeps a lot of people, uh, away from stopping and asking these important questions. So I always like to invite people to consider what I, what, You know, I, I, I didn't invent this, but the term, the 80 20 rule is very popular, you know, well known term, uh, to say that you should be spending 20% of your work time even working on your business rather than [00:33:20] working in your business.

Not, again, it's not an original. That's, that's, uh, Michael Gerber. I think he used that in many others. You have to spend some. Working on your career rather than simply just doing the work of that career. So this is a time management concept, as a matter of saying, if I want to learn what more I can do, if I wanna be able to parse this information and deal with it, this, [00:33:40] this ongoing flood of information I need some time.

You just can't do this if you're spinning on this hamster wheel, all of your waking time. Uh, so that's what I wanna say is we can capitalize on the fact we don't have to do as much traveling. Uh, or just simply of, of redefining how and when and where work is being done. Because frankly, even back at the office, you know, [00:34:00] working nine to five, no one was putting in eight hours of solid work.

It doesn't matter, even if you thought you were, uh, your physiology will zone in and out according to your blood sugar. There's all kinds of things that impact, um, your productivity. So, I would say, you know, give yourself the time to stop and think about what is it that is important to me, Uh, and [00:34:20] learn, you know, piece by piece, day by day, by allowing yourself some time to work on your career, on the business that is you, rather than spending all of your time in that business.

What's next for you, 

[00:34:32] Matt: Steve? I'm curious. You're obviously looking at the world through a lens that is very forward facing, a very technology and digitally [00:34:40] enable. What's, what's your role look like? 

[00:34:42] Guest 1: What's your future look like? Um, just I think pretty much that in terms of just ensuring that there is balance between work and life and, and ensuring that there's that in every single day like yourself.

I mean, I have been working kind of, you know, for myself, I mean, when I talk about that you can be an entrepreneur, a one person operation, a small business like I [00:35:00] have, or you can be working for yourself within a large organization. You, you are running the, the company that is you. Uh, so this is one of the.

That I will continue to expand upon, uh, by saying, yeah, I mean, anything that I used to do that was was wasteful time, especially travel. Especially travel. Whether it's commuting to a client locally in the city or even flying [00:35:20] across the country to do this, I can capitalize on those hours by doing something else and still delivering quality.

So what's next for me professionally is to ensure that I can assure you that the quality of what I would deliver to you as a service. Can be done in this new virtual world, uh, even though you have to shake off some of the, the biases or expectations of the past analog world or [00:35:40] the, or the pre covid world, uh, but always, always to ensure that there's time each day for stuff that is not work.

Relatedness, there's more than two reasons for that. One is the pure mental and physical health of. Time off from work on a daily basis, uh, especially if you have hobbies or you know, family, whatever it is that that is your priority to be with. [00:36:00] But secondly, as an investment in your career, allowing your mind to step away from the focused work of the moment is where it can unravel and re-expand.

And that's where creative thoughts and ideas come from. So you're actually in a far better situation. To I come up with new ideas, new concepts, or new creativity for your [00:36:20] job and your team by actually letting go of the work for a while. So what's next for me is just to continue, um, using the opportunity of the 80 20 rule to ensure that the, the, the gaps are still there between the work because it is just like recharging your car or your phone.

That is the [00:36:40] time that actually makes the other part work. 

[00:36:42] Matt: Those are incredibly wise words, and I think all of us can appreciate that tension point, particularly over the last couple of years where, to your point, many times our world's collided and people were doing work from home for the first time.

Mm-hmm. , and in those cases that could have involved multi-generational families, [00:37:00] elder care, and not everyone's work environments. Sorry, not everyone's home environments were set up appropriately for work going into the pandemic, so there was certainly some challenges around all that. And at the same time, I appreciate the intentionality of creating space within your schedule, within your [00:37:20] day to find.

Some sort of personal passion or pursuit or curiosity. I would add one more thing, Steve. I would say create more space for conversations. Uh, one thing I've really benefited from over my career, uh, whether it was in the corporate world and now as an entrepreneur, and certainly it's a podcast host, is being open to conversation [00:37:40] and I try and make a practice of three to five times per week.

Talking to somebody that I meet up on LinkedIn that I think has a cool story or background or experiences that might be a good guess for the podcast, but just otherwise might be a cool conversation. And I find that I learn a lot about their world and my world from, you know, having really cool [00:38:00] exchanges without.

It being a business transaction. I think why a lot of people are fatigued with the idea of conversation has been this, this concern that they're gonna be sold to. Yeah. Or that it's gonna be a, you know, a very transactional conversation and people don't want to add one more transactional conversation in amongst their day.

I think it's trying to find, [00:38:20] rediscover the, the joy of, of just good conversation. And I think that is something I would add to your mix of things that we can do to top up, top up our, uh, our cups, uh, and try and show up the best way for ourselves. 

[00:38:30] Guest 1: Oh, I totally agree with you. And I mean, again, the, the people would, a lot of people would say, Well, I haven't got time for that.

And that the argument would be, well, yes, you, you can, and you should have time for that because that, that [00:38:40] cross-pollinization of ideas, even with somebody who is ideologically opposed to you, uh, will generate new thoughts and new awarenesses to you. I mean, I totally agree. This is, it's a, it's an a marvelous self advancement opportunity.

Uh, but once again, I've always gotta look at the pushback, the fear factor. And if someone says, I haven't got time for a casual conversation, I got work to do, I'm saying, Well, you're putting the cart [00:39:00] before the horse here. What you get from this conversation will most likely advance. Work, your career, your opportunities much more so than the, the hamster wheel you're currently on.

So, uh, I couldn't, uh, I couldn't agree more on that, man. The kickoff for 

[00:39:13] Matt: this podcast is Intentional constraints drive innovation. We live in a world of constraints and [00:39:20] despite all of our wildest dreams, I don't envision most of us are gonna live in a world where, We're gonna have complete autonomy of time, location, like we're gonna work within constraints, we're gonna have jobs, and we're gonna have personal considerations and families and friends and desire to be in certain spots and to work with certain projects.

This [00:39:40] idea of total freedom for most of us as probably just that it's, it's a, it's a, it's a dream. It doesn't mean that we need to also default to the binary perspective, which is we need, We don't always have to react to our circumstances either. We can be intentional about putting up boundaries for things like.

Spending [00:40:00] time with family and friends, investing in yourself, meditation, exercise, reading, talking to friends, like there's ways you can create space in your schedule and deliver on the outputs. The question is, is you may have to think about things differently. You may have to rearrange how you do your work.

You may have to rearrange how you show up in your life so that you may need [00:40:20] more sleep, or you may have to change your diet, or you may have to change how you structure your time management and your delegation skills, if there may be things you have to change to make it work. But it can work. And I, I think one thing I appreciate about your perspective, Steve, is that when we're talking about things that are ultimately while painful at times, because change [00:40:40] is hard if done well and done thoughtfully, really.

It really does lead to better 

[00:40:45] Guest 1: circumstances. Absolutely. I agree. Uh, with you again, of course, there, The only thing I'd wanna add to that, for those who, uh, might say, Yeah, that sounds great, but I just can't do that. Just remember the reason why people can't do that or they think they can't do it is because proactivity is not natural.

[00:41:00] Reactivity is. So we are very good at reacting to things, especially when something has happened. But taking proactive steps for anything, it takes effort. So if, if people think they can't do it, cuz it just doesn't jive with, with their current mindset, they're totally right. Proactivity needs practice and.

Energy to make it happen. But once you'd start [00:41:20] doing it, uh, the momentum starts to build. So if that's your biggest barrier is it doesn't feel natural, you are completely right in feeling that let's get over that and consciously move into a proactive state. 

[00:41:32] Matt: We're going there. Anyway, Steve and I, uh, I'm happy that you're going along for the ride because I really appreciate your perspective on blending [00:41:40] humanity with technology.

It's an awkward conversation and there's a lot of empathy that can be deployed in a lot of different directions, and I do ultimately have an optimistic view of how it's gonna shape our lives, particularly to your earliest point when we have a chance to shape its. And we're at a stage now where we, we get a chance to have [00:42:00] that say, and that gives me a lot more optimism into the 

[00:42:03] Guest 1: future.

Yeah, and that's what I like about your podcast, Matt, is, is it's, you know, people have to hear that to sort of say, Hey, yeah, okay, maybe I can do that. And so it's part of the conversation. Uh, and that's it. Once you realize it can be done, that's the first step towards making it happen. So, uh, you know, I, I, I think everybody can do it, but that fear, that little barrier of [00:42:20] fear has gotta be stepped over, not climbed over, just stepped over to start the momentum correctly.

Steve, I've enjoyed the 

[00:42:25] Matt: conversation today. Thanks so much for, 

[00:42:27] Guest 1: Me too. Thank you very much for inviting me today.

[00:42:38] Matt: N O HR is a digital [00:42:40] transformation consultancy, working at the intersection of strategy, technology, and people operations. We partner with organizations, private equity and venture capital firms to accelerate value creation and identify the organization's highest leverage initiatives. And this can take place in many form.

From strategic planning and alignment [00:43:00] to technology, procurement, implementation and integration, along with organizational design process, re-engineering and change management. With our proven track record of working with complex high growth organizations, we provide a lens that goes beyond the balance sheet, increasing enterprise readiness, [00:43:20] resilience, and value.

For more information, check us out@bentohr.com.