How Friction Helps Brands Stand the Test of Time - Soon Yu

In today’s episode, I chat with Soon Yu, best-selling author and expert on innovation and design. His latest book, Friction, asks businesses to consider adding more friction for their customers and employees in order to create greater engagement, meaning, belonging, rapport, assurance, competence, and exclusivity.

Soon most recently served as the Global VP of Innovation and officer at VF Corporation, the parent company to over 30 global apparel companies, including The North Face, Vans, Timberland, Nautica and Wrangler.  Prior to this, he worked as a general manager at The Clorox Company and Chiquita Brands, as a consultant at Bain and Company, and as a founder for numerous venture-backed startups.

It was a conversation filled with friction - by design. Soon is a firm believer that adding friction leads to better results. As someone with the podcast tagline: constraints drive innovation, I’m inclined to agree. And we went deeper, exploring how organizations and their leaders can add friction to everything from their business strategies, to their daily work to achieve better results.

We closed by discussing the power of building brands from within.

This was another fun discussion with someone who clearly knows his stuff. Though its his passion for people, his humanity that’s the real star. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did recording it.

Soon Yu

Soon Yu is a best-selling author and expert on innovation and design.  it’s latest book, Friction, asks businesses to consider adding MORE friction for their customers and employees in order to create greater engagement, meaning, belonging, rapport, assurance, competence, and exclusivity.

He most recently served as the Global VP of Innovation and Officer at VF Corporation, parent organization to over 30 global apparel companies, including The North Face, Vans, Timberland, Nautica and Wrangler.  Prior to this, he worked as a general manager at The Clorox Company and Chiquita Brands, as a consultant at Bain and Company, and as a founder for numerous venture-backed startups.

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Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Guest 1: The idea that great brands aren't just built on, you know, , let's call it a great product, or, or, or great marketing. It's actually built more importantly. On the people who are living and breathing and, and making the brand come to life. And it's really the teams that have to, uh, be the [00:00:20] true, uh, brand ambassadors and have to, uh, have the, the values and the brand promise resonate with them on a very personal level.

Otherwise, It really falls apart. So,[00:00:40] 

so constraints, 

[00:00:45] Matt: strive, innovation, Pay everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of Thinking Inside the Box, a show where we discuss complex issues related to work and culture. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us. Bento [00:01:00] hr.com and wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

By searching, thinking inside the box. And if you enjoy the work we're doing here, consider leaving us a five star rating, a comment and subscribing. It ensures you get updated whenever we release new content and really helps amplify our message. In today's [00:01:20] episode, I chat with soon you bestselling author and expert on innovation and design.

His latest book, Friction. Ask Businesses to Consider Adding More Friction. For their customers and employees to create even greater engagement, meaning belonging, rapport, [00:01:40] assurance, competence, and exclusivity. He most recently served as the global Vice President of Innovation and Officer at VF Corporation, a parent firm with over 30 global apparel brands such as the North Face fans, Timberland, [00:02:00] Nautica, and Wrangler.

Prior to this, he worked as general manager at the Clorox company and Chiquita Brands, and as a consultant at Bathing Company. He's also the founder of numerous venture backed startups. Given the depth and breadth of his experiences. I was curious for Sue's thoughts on a [00:02:20] number of topics from the importance of having friction in design to how that translates and influences traditional teamwork and collaboration in organizations, and ultimately the end to end process of building brands from within.

I'm a mid little biased here with the tagline, Constraints [00:02:40] Drive Innovation. This podcast has long been an evangelist for friction in one way or another, and given our shared bias for action soon, and I had a really engaging discussion that I hope you enjoy and now I bring you, soon you. Soon among all of the interesting meetings in my day today, this one is at the top of the [00:03:00] list.

I'm really excited about this conversation for a number of reasons. Before we get into that, all the juicy details, if you could just catch us up who is soon you, your background, your experiences 

[00:03:12] Guest 1: and what brought you to today. Sure. Uh, uh, thanks for having me on Matt. And just a little background for your listeners about me.

I, I would. [00:03:20] Self-describe myself as a brand nerd . I, I'm always very curious about the relationship that brands have with people and, um, I always feel like brands are similar to people in the sense that when we have a relationship with a brand, we oftentimes, um, fall in love with them. [00:03:40] And for those of us who are privileged enough to be caretakers of those, I think it's contingent on us to make sure that we do everything in our power to give, um, those people that have relationship with that brand.

Every reason to stay in love with that brand. No reason to ever be on the fence [00:04:00] with the brand. And so, uh, a lot of my journey has been around, uh, being very curious about how, uh, great brands are built and how do you actually sustain and keep the momentum for great brands. I would also say the other thing you probably know is, A lot of my life and my life journey has been around [00:04:20] epic failures,

Um, and then really the, I think, experience and the, the, the, the trials and tribulations to kind of climb out of that valley that I was in and, and try to get to that next plateau and, and all the people that have helped me there. All the lessons I learned from that. And then, um, [00:04:40] all the, all the added curiosity I, I gained from saying, Okay, how might.

Uh, be better the next time. And, and so there's sort of this rising from the ashes theme, uh, throughout my entire life. And, you know, if we have time, I'll take you through, uh, some of my, my most epic failures, and why they're relevant. . 

[00:04:59] Matt: [00:05:00] Well, you come to the right place if you wanna discuss epic failures. Uh, we, we live at the intersection of big ideas, big swings and failures cuz like it is absolutely the path to innovation and.

In this world where, let's be honest, most of us don't have a roadmap anymore. You need to take some chances on things to see what [00:05:20] works. 

[00:05:20] Guest 1: I absolutely agree. I oftentimes talk to folks and sort of the analogy that I've used in my life is that, um, I look at myself as a living and breathing prototype, and as you know, with most prototypes, you're never complet.

Done. Right. And the key with prototyping is [00:05:40] that, uh, you try new things. Uh, some of them work, that's great. And then you try things that should stretch you, uh, you know, push you to new areas. And oftentimes when you're trying new things, Uh, especially if they're bigger and they're bolder than you did pre previously, you're, [00:06:00] you're not gonna be a hundred, a hundred percent successful in that, and that's okay.

I, I think, um, when you're prototyping, you're actually, uh, prototyping to be successful, but then you test for failure. And, um, so when, when, when you do fail, it's a feedback loop and I, I oftentimes view the feedback loop and the [00:06:20] information you get. If you can be open to it, that is, um, as a competitive advantage cuz you're getting, um, new information that other people may not be open to.

And if you're open to that, uh, and you're open to the learning and the growth that comes from that idea of failing and trying to pick yourself up, you know, you, you're gonna over time be more successful 

[00:06:39] Matt: than most [00:06:40] folks soon. We began this conversation by talking about brands that build the test of time and that can stand that test of time and.

We also have talked about a little bit about innovation and the rate of change and the fact that things are moving so quickly from an organizational perspective that. [00:07:00] Trying to keep anything resonant over a long period of time is a significant advantage, let alone a brand. And I'm curious how you've been thinking about things differently perhaps in the last couple of years as you think about longevity of brand or resonance of message and how maybe the events of the last two years have 

[00:07:17] Guest 1: changed your thinking around that.

Yeah, I [00:07:20] think, uh, great questions. You know, I, I, I, as you know, um, four years ago I wrote a book called Iconic Advantage, and the key about Iconic Advantage was looking at brands that stood the test of time. And I think over the last two or three years, there are a couple of themes that were emerging in the book that have.

Really [00:07:40] reinforce or really brought to light. When I first wrote the book, the idea of, uh, building a lasting brand, a brand that stood the test of time was one around, look, uh, I I looked at some great brands that became iconic. What it meant by becoming a iconic was that they had something that was distinctive, something that they were known for, uh, that [00:08:00] they became the standard bearer for.

And with longevity of being the standard bear for something distinctive that was highly relevant, they were able to achieve iconic status. So a lot of the book really looks at how do you create great distinction? How do you make sure that that distinction actually stays relevant? Not only y. [00:08:20] Today, but more importantly in the future, it's this timeless relevance and.

You know, oftentimes that was around, Hey, you have this brand promise, and it's, it's your ability to deliver that and deliver that consistently. And then, you know, you create a signature around that brand promise and how you deliver that. And then it was really around [00:08:40] creating great innovation pipelines.

Uh, great story pipelines, great design pipelines that reinforce what you award distinctly, distinctly relevant. I think over the last three to four years, what's been really reinforced and something I think, you know, listening to your other podcasts and, and, [00:09:00] and how you, uh, you know, the, the things that you, you firmly believe in.

What I've come to realize is that these great brands can't be built on just having great functionality or great innovation or great storytelling or great design. It has to come authentically from the people who are doing it. And so [00:09:20] the idea that great brands aren't just built on, you know, , let's call it a great product or, or, or great marketing.

It's actually built more importantly. On the people who are living and breathing and, and making the brand come to life. And it's really the teams that have to, uh, be the true, uh, brand ambassadors and [00:09:40] have to, uh, have the, the values and the brand promise resonate with them. On a very personal level, otherwise it really falls apart.

[00:09:49] Matt: Well, and that's where we get into another topic that I'm super fascinated about, which is the, I think the inevitable blending of marketing and hr. And, and soon you've, you've kinda arrived at a similar principle, which is [00:10:00] you want. The people who are closest to the product or the service or the offer, the ones who are most invested in its success, to be the ones who ultimately help evolve it, um, for a market that's continually shifting.

And, you know, I, I'm curious, you know, what are some of the ways that you have or have advised other companies to make sure you have that type of [00:10:20] connectivity so that you do get those appropriate feedback loops? 

[00:10:23] Guest 1: Yeah, so, you know, one of the things I did. Is as I looked at almost 50 great, actually over 50 great companies that had built, um, iconic status and timeless brands is I looked at how they approach building great brands and [00:10:40] almost to tee all of them had a very specific.

Brand dna that was, um, one intentional, two articulated, and three communicated throughout the organization so that people knew, understood it. And the best ones obviously are the ones that lived it. And when I looked at these different pyramids, there's so many of [00:11:00] them, you know. And so I tried to do the, uh, keep it simple stupid strategy and really boiled it down to the essence of looking.

On all these different, uh, frameworks and two T, all of them began with the simple premise that, uh, great brands are built on values, [00:11:20] beliefs, principles that guide behaviors within the organization that then manifest. In terms of how they treat their customers, but initially always started with how people treated each other inside the organization.

Um, these are values that people help guide you when there's nobody else in the room and you're faced with an ethical [00:11:40] dilemma. These are the values which you pay for by saying no to certain customers or walking away from business or, or, or, you know, basically not hiring certain people cuz they don't share those values.

That's where it begins by having a set of values that are shared amongst the team members [00:12:00] that are lived amongst the team members. And then through that it really defines, uh, the personality of the brand. And I would oftentimes think of it as sort of the archetype slash personality and the role that the brand plays and their customers lives, and then the brand promise and how they deliver that promise uniquely or differently to the world.

[00:12:20] But it always. With the values of the organization, and I even wrote an article a few years ago about what I called the inauthentic. The inauthentic, um, are oftentimes businesses that have these lofty aspirations, but when you look at their value system, It's incongruent with [00:12:40] the vision and the promise that they are delivering to their customers.

Um, and you know, I'll, I'll give you one example. I, I struggle with Facebook, you know, because, uh, you know, their promise is, you know, connecting the world and, and bringing the world closer. But if you look at their value system and what's practiced, it's all [00:13:00] about monetizing the relationships that they're creating.

And so there's an incongruence with this idea of, Hey, we're out here to promote, uh, stronger connections. At the same time, the reason we're doing it is so that we can make more money from you. And, and so again, I, I, I, I, I think that that congruence [00:13:20] has to be there, and it has to start with the value. Which is easier 

[00:13:24] Matt: said than done because as we can appreciate, there is lots of diversity of backgrounds and experiences and opinions and visions and values.

How have you found that organizations have been able to keep those cultures together [00:13:40] as they've gone through the inevitable ebbs and flows of just time? 

[00:13:44] Guest 1: Well, you know, I, I think I, I always struggle with organizations that have too many values. Like they list out, you know, a 25 , you know, and that, that, that seems like a lot because that means that, you know, they can, they can hire anybody.

As long as people are practicing two or three of them, and, and, [00:14:00] and if they're a couple that are competing, as long as you can point to one or two of them, they seem to work. So I find that the organizations that have fewer values, But are very strongly communicated and rooted, and practiced and reinforced over time.

Those are the organizations that tend to [00:14:20] have greater sustainability because they know who they are. It's very clear what their identity is, and. , even if they hire folks that have some of those values, because they're being reinforced, because they're being reminded, because they're being practiced by both their peers and by their uh, um, bosses.

It's [00:14:40] something where maybe it was a muscle that wasn't fully well developed when you started in the organization. Trust me. After being there for 12 months, it will be ingrained in what you do and how you think and how you act inside the organization and with others in the organization of, and then it will manifest, uh, in terms of what shows up [00:15:00] externally.

[00:15:03] Matt: Hey everyone, it's Matt here. I hope you're enjoying today's discussion. And before we continue, I want to make you aware of my latest creative project this week at Work, presented in partnership with my good friend Chris Rainey of HR Leaders. Each Friday will live stream on [00:15:20] LinkedIn at 7:00 AM Pacific Standard.

That's 10:00 AM Eastern Standard Time and 3:00 PM GMT for our European viewers, and together bringing the latest trends, news on topics emanating from organizations, everything from culture to technology and the future of work. Joining is easy. 

[00:15:39] Guest 1: Just follow [00:15:40] me on LinkedIn. 

[00:15:40] Matt: Click the bell at the top right hand side of my profile and you'll get notified when we go live each week.

And whether you do experience the content live or later, if you've been following me for a while, you'll no doubt recognize the fun banter Chris and I have developed over the years and whether it's been podcasts or digital events, we're so excited to [00:16:00] again, bring you the topics affecting today's workplaces and their leaders.

And now back to our discussion. 

[00:16:08] Guest 1: What's 

[00:16:09] Matt: the role of friction in organizations or in brands more broadly? What role does constraints. 

[00:16:17] Guest 1: Play. Yeah, that's a very big [00:16:20] topic. Great question. Uh, it's the focus of my second book, and let me sort of give you, uh, the lead up to why I actually wrote a book about this idea of constraints or friction as I was looking at these great brands that were building, uh, sort of timeless distinction.

Uh, one of the things that was important was this idea of [00:16:40] having something you were known for a signature. And as I looked at great brands, they would. Signature experiences, things that people recognize them for. And a lot of times these signature experiences weren't focused on making things easier for their customers.

They're oftentimes [00:17:00] more about engaging their customers, making their customers, uh, think making their customers, uh, actually make decisions and choices. Um, they were about, uh, situations that created. What I call the happy chemicals. And these happy chemicals are actually friction, uh, [00:17:20] derived. And so for example, dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, endorphins, and adrenaline, all these different type of happy chemicals actually require certain amount of friction.

So let's take dopamine. Dopamine is what I would call the reward and anticipation drug. And it, it is , you know, [00:17:40] it's every time. Make a post and we're waiting for all those likes, right? It, it's that, uh, uh, anticipation for the reward. Here's the key. If you make everything so easy and seamless, and if you make what I need next readily available without me even having to think about it, there is no [00:18:00] anticipation and the reward we get for things that we don't have to anticipate.

It's much less than if we were waiting for it. You know, I was talking to a colleague yesterday who works at Amazon, and one of the great things that Amazon does is it actually does, you know, initially create incredible dopamine because [00:18:20] they provided the world's worth of products available to you, where you would never have that available to you.

So it was this idea of getting things that you would, you know, from the world that you'd never been able to get before. But at the same time, I worry that, uh, by their ability to predict what we need in the next second, like if I need a Coke, there's [00:18:40] gonna be a drone dropping me a Coke before I even know it, that it may actually end up diminishing the power of dopamine.

I don't know if you remember this, but, uh, maybe a hundred years ago. People used to wait for something called the Wells Fargo wagon, and it would show up maybe once a month into a city, and it would create [00:19:00] tremendous dopamine. Two, three or four days before the, the, the, the, the wagon, uh, actually ended up showing up.

So it, it, it's this idea that, uh, it requires a certain amount of friction for. Same thing with oxytocin. It's about the, they call it the love drug. It's this idea of having connection and [00:19:20] interaction and relationships. Um, you get a high dose of oxytocin, and I worry if we become too contact free. Where we never have to go into a restaurant again and actually even interact with the staff, that we're gonna lose some of that oxytocin.

And the same thing if, if we only work at home and [00:19:40] never get back into the office and, and have conversations with people, and even have disagreements with people. All of that creates great sero. That is the, um, sort of respect drug. It is really about the idea that, hey, I am going to demonstrate my worth.

I'm going to [00:20:00] be, allow myself to be competitive and do my best and see if I can achieve, uh, something better than I did last time and get recognized for it. Uh, and then, uh, endorphins, you, you, it's kind of the, um, painkiller drug where, you know, if, if you're, if you're a jo, It's what happens on the 26 mile of that [00:20:20] marathon that the endorphins kick in and you get that, that that runner's high, and of course, adrenaline.

You can't get excitement and you can't have all the, uh, the energy that comes from adrenaline without having a certain degree of engagement. And, and then sort of call it fear. This is the, you know, you get a little [00:20:40] bit of adrenaline when, when, when you're nervous or when you're anticipating. So all those things require great friction.

And so when I was looking at the world going totally seamless, It just dawned on me that this is not the way to build great brands. Great brands actually demand something of their customers demand. Uh, more interaction, [00:21:00] demand more consideration and intentionality in order to create both happy chemicals and a deeper relationship.

And the same thing is true. For employees. If you make things too easy for your employees, if you're not demanding more of your employees in terms of asking them for greater mastery or [00:21:20] autonomy or purpose. Things that Dan Pink writes about in terms of what drives people and all those three things require great friction.

You're not gonna get the best out of your employees, and they're not gonna be that engaged with your. 

[00:21:33] Matt: How do you find the balance? It's obviously a unique time in all of our lives. [00:21:40] Uh, many of us have experienced some form of loss, and at the very minimum, some inconvenience over the last couple of years.

And there's this segment, a growing sense. I'll say that hours of work have gotten longer and a lot of organizations, um, the day feels like it's getting shorter and shorter [00:22:00] as people stack on top of the. Professional and personal responsibilities. In a world where we're advocating for friction, how do we as organizations, as leaders, as individuals know how to find the right amount of friction?

I 

[00:22:15] Guest 1: think that's a great question and. I think when people look at the [00:22:20] idea of adding friction into a system, they look at it and says, Hey, you know, it's kind of like my barrel's kind of already full and you're kind of now tipping the balance where basically it's all gonna spill out because you just added way too much in.

So I think the key here is understanding, there's a distinction, or maybe a [00:22:40] simpler way of saying it is not all friction is created equal. There is bad. But there's also good friction. So first and foremost, before you even think about adding any good friction in, let's step back and say, Can we reduce the bad friction?

I would define, define bad friction. As [00:23:00] you know, resistance, effort, uh, time, energy that leads to bad outcomes. Good friction is the same thing. Time, effort, energy, investment that leads to good outcomes. So, . If you can look at friction from those two lenses and say, Look, I'm gonna get rid of the stuff that [00:23:20] creates annoyances, frustration, uncertainty, risk, fear.

Let's get rid of those things first. Okay? And, and, and. And once we've done that, we've created a clearing, so to speak. We can consider adding in some good friction. Good friction, that creates engagement, good friction that creates meaning, [00:23:40] belonging, rapport. Competence assurance and exclusivity it. There's so many good virtues that come from having those happy chemicals, and so that's the key is not to add more friction in, but to reduce the bad friction and then take the [00:24:00] space that's created from that and add in some of the good friction.

Let me give you a simple example from a product perspective of the idea. Good and bad friction. To illustrate the, the, the, the idea, let's take the idea of, uh, opening a package. Pretend we went to Best Buy and we bought, and the latest flash [00:24:20] drive. Generally it comes in one of these big plastic clam shells, and we take it home and we have to get our scissors out, cut open the clam shell, and even then it's so well welded together that we have to take our fingernails and try it open just to get to that little flash drive.[00:24:40] 

And that usually takes two or three minutes of our day. And it's bad friction, it's unnecessary, it's overpack. Well, let me counter that with another example of good friction. Something that actually oftentimes on average takes anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes to open a package. You take the [00:25:00] example of an apple packaged good, okay?

Whatever might be a computer. It could be the iPhone, it could be the, I watched generally, The way Apple treats the products is as if it's a treasure and they treat the package as a treasure chess. I always ask during my keynotes how many [00:25:20] people bought an Apple product and 90% of the people raise their hand and I ask them, Well, how many of you kept the package?

90% of those hands stay up. Okay. And you know, oftentimes go to the 2, 3, 4, 5. I. Had people raise their hands and keep their hands up. After 17 Apple packages, they kept in their closet . And I [00:25:40] always said, What do you do with them? I can't throw 'em away. You know, and, and I, it kinda reminds me of my son. I, I got him in a, one of those Apple watches and.

His unveiling took 30 minutes because not only was it unveiling of the package, but in each one of those, uh, sort of, uh, parts of the package required a [00:26:00] certain interaction with the actual product in terms of setting it up, choosing his colors, putting in his name, registering it with certain websites.

And when I got up for, for Christmas room, that was probably. Most enjoyable 30 minutes of Christmas was setting up his Apple Watch, [00:26:20] so it took 30 minutes to actually unveil and, and, and sort of unpack his Apple watch. And yet for him that was incredibly great friction. 

[00:26:30] Matt: An example of bad friction clearly would be something where people found extra activities or extra time to be an inconvenience, which is what [00:26:40] likely why Amazon to use an earlier example, has one stop, one click purchases.

So if you just wanna buy something and take it, Amazon will take your money. Um, they're not gonna make it go through nine steps to, you know, confirm various items. So your point's well taken in terms of trying to find the right balance. Good friction versus unproductive [00:27:00] friction, particularly when you're thinking about the outcomes you're trying to 

[00:27:02] Guest 1: achieve.

Absolutely. And it just goes back to that example, that flash drive where those three minutes, you know why , Right? Whereas, hey, my son wanna spend 30 minutes. He is the why is clear for him, Right? It's, it's enjoyment, it's engagement, it's. It's also [00:27:20] meaning I, I I I, One of the reasons that people kept their Apple packages is it actually elicits a memory for them in terms of point in time in their life, uh, their, you know, first time on the job, whatever it might be.

That package actually helps remind them of that. Let's pivot 

[00:27:37] Matt: this discussion ever so slightly to a topic that I [00:27:40] think runs in parallel with this. And whether you're talking about engagement or brands or friction, uh, a word that comes to mind for me is attention. And I'm curious about how you think friction interacts with.

The idea of attention, particularly in the [00:28:00] context of a world where attention is increasingly becoming an economic 

[00:28:04] Guest 1: good. Yeah. What does that look like for you? Yeah, I think that's a important, uh, question. I think it's a great question actually. You know, one of the things in my research I found is that, and, and, and you're a marketing guy, so you'll understand this, Uh, my [00:28:20] boss once told, How you acquire a customer is oftentimes how you keep that customer and you know, so if you acquire them through coupons and promotions, they're probably gonna expect the same in order to stay stick with you.

If you acquire them through great, uh, product and, and, and, um, functionality, you're probably gonna have to [00:28:40] continue with that. Same thing is true. One of the main reasons you get a customer is because you created a more seamless experience than the competitor, and that's great. The problem with that is the anti gets upped every single time, and so you have to just be cognizant of who's gonna have the, the [00:29:00] next most frictionless mouse trap.

And so, you know, the loyalty only goes and extends as far as the. App, the website, the e-commerce, whatever that is the most frictionless. And, and so if somebody else keeps, comes up with a more frictionless experience, guess what? [00:29:20] It's just so easy to switch. The other problem with becoming so seamless or frictionless is the fact that people don't think about you as much.

You become forgettable , and here's the. , if you can take away the stuff that makes people annoyed, but then also add in [00:29:40] parts where they have to be engaged, or maybe you need a review from them. And not only do you need a review from them, you actually don't just, Hey, say thank you for posting a review. Hey, we're very curious about what you wrote about here.

Can you explain this one part a little bit more? All of a sudden you realize, Hey, I'm actually more vested and [00:30:00] actually more committ. To this website cuz I put in more time and effort, uh, or to this app or to whatever it might be. And so I, I think the trick is knowing how to engage your customers in a way where they feel that, one, they're valued.

Uh, two. Where they feel that, hey, they actually have [00:30:20] a stake in your success. Uh, three where, you know, the time and effort and energy, there's a huge sum cost, but hey, it's a cost that I don't necessarily wanna throw away if I have to switch to somebody else. So the more you can get your customers to engage, invest and, and, and, [00:30:40] and, and sort of be focused on you and, and think about, The more likely you're gonna get more committed and loyal customers.

And so therefore you do actually need to demand their attention, but you need to do it in a way that makes them actually feel positive and feel valued and [00:31:00] feel, um, I think activated. So 

[00:31:03] Matt: what's next for you? It's the, about the midpoint. A bit past the midpoint of 2022. I'm curious, what's 

[00:31:09] Guest 1: next for you in your.

Well, for me, I think, you know, uh, you know, after writing both these books, I think I'm still on the path of, uh, helping businesses think about, Hey, how do I build [00:31:20] something that can really stand the test of time, that can really ride through crazy things like the pandemic. Uh, and then, uh, the, the other thing I'm really focused on is thinking about how do we make sure that, uh, businesses stay truth to their values and.

They are focused on the [00:31:40] most important, I think, asset that any business can have, which is their employees, it's their team members, and if they. Convert their own folks to be evangelists, then guess what? The marketing is so much easier. So I'm really sort of focused [00:32:00] on thinking about how to re redesign work in a way where people are much more engaged.

Where there's more demanded of them in a way that actually makes them feel valued in a way that makes them feel like they're growing in a way that makes 'em feel like they're more accomplished and, and more realized as [00:32:20] an individual and as a team member. So those are some of the areas I'm really curious about and much more focused on.

[00:32:26] Matt: I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks so much for taking the time. 

[00:32:29] Guest 1: Yeah, thank you. Matt

[00:32:39] Matt: [00:32:40] nto. HR is a digital transformation consultancy, working at the intersection of strategy, technology, and people operations. We partner with organizations, private equity and venture capital firms to accelerate value creation and identify the organization's highest leverage initiatives. And this can take place in many form.

From strategic [00:33:00] planning and alignment to technology, procurement, implementation and integration, along with organizational design process, re-engineering and change management. With our proven track record of working with complex high growth organizations, we provide a lens that goes beyond the balance sheet, increasing [00:33:20] enterprise readiness, resilience, and value.

For more information, check us out@bentohr.com.