How Digital Reputations are Built in the 21st Century - Peter Shafer

In today's episode, I chat with Peter Shafer. A collaborative, agile, roll-up-your-sleeves sales, marketing and communications leader known for his compelling stories, bias for results, and passion for developing the talents of people around him. He also works as a professional football referee.

Peter helps organizations grow, whether through sales training, supporting new product launches, or advising on broader innovative initiatives.

Together we discussed digital reputation management at the individual, team and organizational level. The importance of market research in developing and measuring your impact. And how his work as an NFL referee, highlighted by rapid decision-making, managing big personalities on the world's largest stage, and the pressure of making the right call, influences how he sees organizations  from the outside looking in.

It's a unique vantage point, and I really enjoyed our discussion. I hope you do, as well.


Peter Shafer

Peter Shafer is Executive Vice President, Sales and Marketing for Prosper Group and Everest, Communications, both digital marketing firms based in Indianapolis. Peter has extensive experience in digital marketing, sales leadership, corporate communications, and market research.  He has held senior leadership roles in global organizations and consultancies such as Brunswick Group (London), The Gallup Organization (Gallup Poll), Harris Poll (Stagwell Corporation) and KRC Research/InterPublic Group as well as owning RSSL Advisory LLC, a marketing communications consultancy.

In addition, Shafer has published two books and has written extensively on public affairs and communications topics for numerous journals and publications. Peter’s a frequent guest on podcasts, discussing data analytics, consumer behavior, polling and research and other marketing and sales topics. He is an NFL Instant Replay official, and he resides in Baltimore.

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Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Guest 1: People have so much data right now that they can talk about the patterns. They can talk about the, the numbers themselves, but what they really are struggling with is the why behind those numbers. And so some of these qualitative methodologies allow for you to grab and, and, and collect that information [00:00:20] and, and really try.

Clearly explain why something is happening, not what is actually happening missing, so

is

missing. So [00:00:40] constraints 

[00:00:40] Matt: drive innovation. Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of Thinking Inside the Box, a show where we discuss complex issues related to work and culture. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us@bentohr.com and wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

By searching, thinking inside the box, [00:01:00] and if you enjoy the work we're doing here, consider leaving us a five star rating, a review, and subscribe. It ensures you get updated whenever we release new content and really helps amplify our message. In today's episode, I chat with Peter Schaffer, 

[00:01:16] Guest 1: a collaborative agile 

[00:01:18] Matt: roll up your sleeves, [00:01:20] sales, marketing, and communications leader known for his compelling stories, a bias for results and passion for developing the talents of people around him.

He also moonlight as a professional football. And helps organizations grow, whether through sales training, supporting new product [00:01:40] launches, or advising on broader innovation initiatives. Together, Peter and I discussed digital reputation management at the individual team and organizational level, the importance of market research in developing and measuring your impact, and how his work as an NFL referee highlighted by rapid decision making, [00:02:00] managing bigger personalities.

The world's largest stage and the pressure of making the right call influences how he sees organizations from the outside looking in. It's a unique vantage point, and I really enjoyed our conversation. I hope you do as well. And now I bring you Peter Schaffer. Peter, this meeting was [00:02:20] scheduled a while back.

It thankfully was rescheduled cause I'm very interested in this conversation with you about all things data and future of work. Um, we've got some really cool information regarding, you know, just the application of reputation management and research. Just a, a ton of topics that I'm super interested in these [00:02:40] days.

Um, first thank you for being here. And secondly, before we get into the topics, if you wouldn't mind. Walking us through who Peter is, your background and 

[00:02:47] Guest 1: what brought you to today. Sure, Matt. And it's great to be with you and thank you very much for, uh, for having me on today. My background actually has been on two particular paths since, uh, I graduated from college.

The [00:03:00] first has been on a public relations and, and public affairs path. Um, so I've worked in organizations, DC based and, and certainly corporate based, working on communications issues, public affairs issues, and, and even. What would be called critical business issues that would have some government component to it, [00:03:20] some, uh, you know, other, other, uh, say taxation component to it or something along those lines.

So, um, that's the first path. The second path, um, I've worked for major polling companies, uh, Gallop Poll, Harris Poll, uh, with CEO of a, a research company that was part of, uh, inter public. So the background of using data [00:03:40] and creating narratives from that data has been a consistent part of my career for the 30 plus years I've been there.

The, the one sidebar, and I know that, uh, that you know this, but others probably don't, is that in my. Part-time life. I am a, an NFL referee and that skill set is a little bit different. And, but it does help in [00:04:00] terms of crisis communication in term, in reputation management, um, and also being able to make quick decisions with, um, a finite set of data and, and, and still come out with an accurate decision.

So that's kind of me in a nutshell. But, uh, my, my career path has, has followed those two particular paths and, and a lot of that [00:04:20] is like what you said is. It's driven by curiosity about how humans behave, why they behave, they do, and then how they actually rank or at least rate their behavior compared to what they actually do.

And that's the interesting part of, of my job is I get to see that play out almost every day. So 

[00:04:38] Matt: it's super fascinating [00:04:40] because while there isn't always a degree of individuality, when you aggregate large sums of anything, you start to see patterns in them. And as somebody who. Passionate and curious about our own existence.

Of course. There's just a lot of curiosities that I'm sure you'd like to explore. Peter, from your own perspective, I'm curious, what are some of the use [00:05:00] cases that have come up recently that stick out for you? Maybe certain projects or certain applications of this where you've been able to satisfy a curiosity or illuminate something that might have been hidden 

[00:05:09] Guest 1: before.

Yeah, so I'll, I'll, I'll share something that happened to me actually today on a campaign that we had been working on. It was a digital, digital advertising campaign for a client, and [00:05:20] it was a, it was related to a, um, a referendum in a particular township. So we did the digital advertising campaign, ran it for six weeks, and we lost by, I think, um, 1200 votes total out of the 8,000 that were cast.

Both of the colleagues that I worked with on it were very [00:05:40] disappointed that we lost. And I said, if we hadn't done the advertising campaign, we would've probably lost by a much wider margin than we did. So, you know, it, it's some, you just, it's interesting to see your work actually become an outcome or where there is a particular action that says, Hey, you know, um, in this case it was a vote, but, you know, buying [00:06:00] habits and, and you know, what people watch and what people purchase.

Uh, so it's, it's always interesting to. How the decisions you make up front and, and some of the data that you use actually come to fruition on the back end. That's the part that I really like, is that there is a level of closure, for lack of a [00:06:20] better way to put it in, in some of the campaigns that we run, we know that there's a set time to begin and a set time to end.

And then, you know, we see either based on, you know, some, like you said, pattern or some actual, uh, end point. What, what really did happen and, and why that particular issue, or maybe why that particular situation [00:06:40] turned into, you know, a positive or it turned into a negative. So that's the, that's the fun part.

But, but you know, from my standpoint, it, it's, it, we get to see that, or at least in the work that I do every day, I get to see that play out in, in sometimes real. And that's the fun part because you get to 

[00:06:57] Matt: ask a really, I, you know, important or [00:07:00] curious question and get a really interesting answer. And e e exactly.

That part is super fascinating. I'm curious, as you're going through this process and as you are, um, establishing the question that you want to ask, how are you determining the right inputs to collect 

[00:07:15] Guest 1: dancer? It, you know, that's a, a really great question, Matt. There's, there's no real [00:07:20] secret sauce to it.

The, the first thing that almost everybody. Claims that they do, but I think they ignore as they move along is, what is it we really wanna accomplish here? What is the outcome that we really want to have? You know, when I was working at Gallop Poll and, and Harris Poll, one of the exercises that we would go through was to write dream headlines of, okay, if, [00:07:40] if this was gonna be on the cover of.

The Wall Street Journal or the New York Times or you know, time Magazine or whatever it would be. What, what, what one or two things we would really want to have said that would make an impact. And I think that that mindset helps even today because it helps then guide. Not only the type of question that we ask [00:08:00] and the type of people we ask that question to, but it also gives us an idea of what type of scale we could use to measure that.

And, and I often talk about does that scale measure intensity? Does it measure passion? Does it measure that emotional component that I think, uh, oftentimes people brush over. So you're [00:08:20] right in, in us doing the research and kind of taking a. The ads and ad testing and you know, whether we're using AB testing or not, or performance metrics that that actually happen in field.

You know, the common denominator is, you know, are we actually getting to the outcome and are we actually getting to the intended data? [00:08:40] Point that we really wanted to see and, and you know, as you mentioned earlier, you know, there are techniques and there are ways to get that done and to make that happen.

But really, if you understand what your objective is, then you can work backwards to say, okay, here are the parts and pieces that we need to make that that happen and, and make it effective. 

[00:08:58] Matt: And what would be another use [00:09:00] case of a methodology like that? So we've talked about it in the application of polling and it sounds like political campaigns, other ways we're using it.

[00:09:06] Guest 1: Oh, yeah. I mean, there are multiple ways to be using this and, and it goes ev from everything from exploratory research where you're potentially looking at a new product or a new service and, and really trying to understand how uh, you can [00:09:20] solve a consumer problem all the way to making pricing decisions around a particular product or service and, and, The market will bear what particular consumer groups will pay, what elements should be within that offer and, and how that would, uh, that would impact, you know, the embracing and uptake of those, uh, those campaigns.

So there [00:09:40] are multiple applications for it. One of the things that I've noticed just over the last, probably 18 months to two years, and, and part of this has been driven by covid, is the reemergence of things like focus groups or the qualitative type of research projects. And, and part of it is that, People have so much data right now that they can [00:10:00] talk about the patterns.

They can talk about the, the numbers themselves. But what they really are struggling with is the why behind those numbers. And so some of these qualitative methodologies allow for you to grab and, and, and collect that information and, and really try to clearly explain why something is happening, not what is actually [00:10:20] happening, you know?

So for example, when he was talking about the, um, the vote just a second ago, We now know quantitatively that the messaging that we were using didn't work because it didn't push enough of the people across the line to say that, uh, they were in favor of this issue. But my guess is that, you know, if we were to look at the [00:10:40] qualitative data on it, that.

One of the things that might have come out of that was that the, the either we were too late to the, to the game and, and they had already made up their mind, or that maybe the messaging wasn't as strong as they would like it to be, or it didn't differentiate between the two sides enough to make them [00:11:00] make the, the voter switched their, uh, switched their vote.

So, you know, it, it again, I mean, I. You know, from my standpoint, you can apply these types of methodologies across multiple different issues and different, um, different situations. But ultimately what you wanna try to come up with is, is why a particular thing [00:11:20] happened and, and why it influenced a situation or why it's influencing a pattern the way, uh, the way.

It either is intended or is unintended 

[00:11:30] Matt: as you alluded to. Another part of your wide set of professional experiences is looking at information and decision making on [00:11:40] albeit a much more condensed timeframe. As an NFL referee, you are taking in a lot of information in a very short period of time, and there's a lot of pressure on the officiating staff to come up with a.

The decision quickly and perhaps be most importantly the right decision. How do you transition between [00:12:00] the two of having to look at seas of information over a longer term horizon to hit a very clear project and then transition that thinking into real time pressure cooker officiating decisions? Yeah, 

[00:12:11] Guest 1: and you know, and it, it's a great question, Matt, and, and one of the things that I really appreciate about the NFL training is, Keeping the big picture in [00:12:20] mind, but also being able to micromanage play situations and, and how that potentially impacts.

So the three particular things that, that I do that kind of get, you know, hopefully get at both of those things. Number one is that prior to a situation, you know, in this case a game. You know, I try to [00:12:40] clear my mind of any bias that I have in regard to, well, I should expect this, or, player X is this, or something along those lines.

And I think in business situations as well, you know, it's probably a good idea to, if you can clean your mind of, you know, any preconceived bias that you might have, um, especially when you're in a, a very competitive [00:13:00] situation, is that it's easy to. Bias yourself that the competitor is actually the enemy or whatever.

And if you divorce yourself outta that a little bit and look at the situation with, with less intensity, you, you'll probably get a, a cleaner picture of what's going on. The second is that while it's important to anticipate things, [00:13:20] it's also important to take things in the present. And I think oftentimes, and I'll use this uh, just a second, you know, I think oftentimes we jump to a.

More quickly than the conclusion presents itself to us. So for example, you know, one of the things that we're taught is that you don't want to anticipate whether [00:13:40] a player or not is gonna make a catch or have retain possession of a ball. And the reason why that is, is that you wanna make certain that you process through each of the steps of that catch.

You know, does the person have possession of the ball? Does the person have their feet inbounds, the two feet inbounds? And so there's that progression that you have to go through and. [00:14:00] Every time somebody speeds through that progression, they make a mistake. And that's the same thing on the, uh, on the corporate side as well and even on the not-for-profit side, is that the faster you speed through those progressions, the more likely it is that you're gonna make a mistake.

And, and the. The third is, and you know, we, we talk about this all the time, is expect the [00:14:20] unexpected. Anticipate that there are gonna be things that you've just never seen before, or situations that you have, and you've got to be in a mindset that you can react or respond to those in a constructive way.

And I think what happens oftentimes is that we over plan, and because we over plan, we. Plan for those [00:14:40] un unanticipated situations. So, for example, this is a, a football one. You know, we don't plan for an injury. We don't plan for an event that would a weather event, for example, that would postpone or delay a game for 30 minutes.

So you've gotta be able to adapt and adjust to those strange situations that might happen once every [00:15:00] season or, or happen in, in opportune times. And I think from a corporate perspective is that we get into these rigid planning sessions and or, or these rigid plans and don't anticipate well enough for some event that what might, you know, adjust that.

Um, you know, so for example, what, [00:15:20] what would happen if a CEO resigns suddenly because of either health reasons or a scandal or something along those lines. There's not a lot. Adaptation to that type of thing because our plans, oh, well this, we gotta follow the plan. So those are the three things that I use, that I take from my NFL training and apply to the business [00:15:40] side.

You know, and, and you know, I'd like to say that, you know, I'm a hundred percent correct all the time, but I'm not. But in terms of game management and in terms of situational management, almost. A hundred percent of the time I can walk off the field knowing that, you know, I had a positive impact on the outcome of that game.

Well, 

[00:15:57] Matt: and it sounds like in either event you [00:16:00] have a very clear set of principles and practices that you adhere to that gives you confidence in arriving at the right decision. Which is exactly what you should be doing when the stakes are as high as they are, whether it's in an organizational context, and we're talking about tens of thousands if not millions of people.

Or, you know, in a situation where it's a, you know, an [00:16:20] NFL game where the effective parties, you know, personally are those in the field, but also tens of millions of fans around the world watching the game as well. So I, I appreciate. The intentionality at which you look at that problem and I'm, I'm curious about the intersection of the two of them, because I think when we talk about decision making, especially at that leadership level, and [00:16:40] when we talk about enterprise in particular, it's true.

You reference, uh, one of your scenarios. What happens when a CEO walks away from an organization? We're now in an era where, Leaders are increasingly being held to a higher standard around how they conduct themselves outside the four walls of their organization, and absolutely inside the four walls of their [00:17:00] organization.

And increasingly, we're all becoming digital citizens, having larger and more impactful digital footprints, whether it's social media accounts or LinkedIn profiles or blogs, we. But our digital footprints have never been more impactful. I'm curious about the intersectionality of [00:17:20] reputation and data and what role data plays in that conversation.

[00:17:23] Guest 1: It, it, it's a wonderful question, Matt, and two particular things in regard to data and then reputation Number one is almost every executive that I have talked to, regardless of what level they are in the organization, completely, completely underestimate [00:17:40] their digital f. That's, that's really out there, whether it's personal, professional, or both, they don't have any clue as to how easy it is to, for somebody to go out and actually find out and search their individual information and, and find out a lot of things.

[00:18:00] And it's un. One of the things that's I think, enlightening to these executives is actually how far back some of this data actually goes, because I think that everybody thinks in terms of social media time and not document time, meaning that, uh, a white paper that I might have done 30 years ago on a particular topic, [00:18:20] it it, it's probably gonna find its way to in, in a search result.

And so, you know, you just never know what pops.

[00:18:31] Matt: Hey everyone, it's Matt here. I hope you're enjoying today's discussion. And before we continue, I want to make you aware of my latest creative project this week [00:18:40] at Work, presented in partnership with my good friend Chris Rainey of HR Leaders. Each Friday will livestream on LinkedIn at 7:00 AM Pacific Standard.

That's 10:00 AM Eastern Standard Time and 3:00 PM GMT for our European viewers. And together bringing the latest trends, news on topics emanating [00:19:00] from organizations, everything from culture to technology, and the future of work. Joining is easy. Just follow me on LinkedIn. Click the bell at the top right hand side of my profile and you'll get notified when we go live each.

And whether you do experience the content live or later, if you've been following me for a while, you'll no doubt [00:19:20] recognize the fun banter Chris and I have developed over the years and whether it's been podcasts or digital event. We're so excited to, again, bring you the topics affecting today's workplaces and their leaders.

And now back to our discussion. 

[00:19:36] Guest 1: Um, the second thing is that from controlling and [00:19:40] also promoting your individual reputation, there are specific ways to be able to enhance or at least move yourself up the list on, on particular searches or particular topic areas. And I think that a lot of. You know that, that most of us don't have that much time in our day [00:20:00] to map out and then execute on those types of strategies to, to increase visibility, increase, um, your reputation.

And, and a lot of it is really, I think, incumbent upon the individual to, to really take ownership of those things. Um, so for example, uh, one of the clients that we were working. Did a lot of [00:20:20] volunteer work within, um, her individual community did a lot of work in, in both the, um, not for profit space, but also the educational space.

And, you know, she was, what's the word I'm looking for? Um, you know, she didn't. Actually go out and promote the work that she was doing. And one of [00:20:40] the organizations that she was volunteering for actually did push it out farther, and it really did start to take some, or got, get some traction in regard to her, her name when you searched it.

And, and those types of things actually, you know, because they're positive and because they do have, you know, such a, a, a good humanistic impact. [00:21:00] Um, those are the types of things that I think. Tend to ignore, or we tend to maybe diminish to the point where we actually oughta think, Hey, actually this is a way that that can move me or, or at least move my reputation into a different way.

We actually had somebody who come, who came to us, um, who had a negative, [00:21:20] uh, a very negative. Article written about them in a major publication. And you know, at the end of the day what we wound up advising is that it's easy enough to set up another account and another way to promote your brand and deflect that, the impact that that news story.

So there are methods that you can use to kind of [00:21:40] get around it, but you know, unfortunately, I think between. The overwhelming amount of data that we have, and also just the amount of time, the limited amount of time we have is that we're not spending a lot of constructive time on digital reputation, our own personal digital reputation.

And I, and I think, you know, as you, well probably well know, [00:22:00] uh, One of the first things we think is, oh, it's my LinkedIn profile, or it's my Facebook profile, or it's, you know, and, and there's so many more avenues that, that you can explore and, and use to, uh, to build out reputational, um, prowess. 

[00:22:14] Matt: We're increasingly shifting into this new world where our digital [00:22:20] avatars are going to be proxies for us as humans and.

Like I get that makes people uncomfortable. I, we do a lot of podcasts here about virtual reality, and I get emails from folks saying it's sci-fi. And, you know, it's, and I appreciate all that. And I just, for the record, I don't think virtual reality is a, [00:22:40] a technology you should put on your head for 24 straight hours,

Um, I think a virtual reality, like any communication tool, which is that it should be used for very specific use cases and can be very beneficial when you want to find the intersection of immersion and inclusion when you can't be in the same room with somebody else or the experience that you want to have.

[00:23:00] So, um, All that being said, as a, as a precursor to this, I'm curious, as you've looked at this practice over your time in it, things have evolved a lot. The back so far as the backdrop, whether it's political campaigns, whether it's the way that organizations view themselves and their reputations. There's been an evolution of thinking in all of this [00:23:20] in part, I'm sure, because of the availability of data.

I'm curious for yourself, Peter, what are some of the things that you've seen evolve over our time, that stand out for you in particular? 

[00:23:29] Guest 1: You know, that's. Question. The one thing that that continues to shock me, I guess, in terms of the overall evolution is how [00:23:40] free and how liberal. Even the most conservative people are with their individual data.

And I know that that privacy has been a, a, a hot topic for a while. Privacy online definitely has been, but, um, I'm, I'm really often just shocked at how easy and how [00:24:00] kind of flippant we are about sharing our personal information across platforms or with different organizations, which we might not know anything about, but where, hey, you know, we see the offer and we wanna do it.

So, you know, I think. None of us really understand the value of what our individual data means, and certainly [00:24:20] what it means to marketers and what it means to other organizations. And, and I think that that, you know, that's still evolving and I'm, I'm interested to see how that, uh, that plays out. You mentioned, you know, virtual reality in a couple others and artificial inte.

And, and there are these disciplines that are emerging or have started to [00:24:40] emerge that I think are, are creating two particular challenges. Number one is there is this challenge of really harnessing data for good. Versus harnessing data for just anything. Um, and really being intentional about how we look at that data.

So, for example, [00:25:00] when an insurance company creates this actuary database and, and they're using AI to create or look for patterns, um, among different drivers or different, uh, lifestyle sets or things like that, is that in, in there, there is an unintended danger to that because it does create. Segments [00:25:20] that are discriminatory sometimes.

And, and I think that they're for the well intended purpose of being able to predict actuarial, you know, insurance risk. Um, there are some downsides to that, you know, so, so I think that, that, that's one of the dangers that we have to kind of still work through, or at least think through [00:25:40] or be aware of, so that we're not creating, uh, unintended discrimination or unintended bias in, in some of these.

But the other part is, I think from just a, a, a data management standpoint is that we are so quick to make a judgment [00:26:00] about sets of data that we, because we, we, we need to answer or solve a particular problem is that we're not looking at that data in the context of some bigger. Maybe cultural issue. And I think that's the part that is, is starting to, uh, to, you know, start evolving.

I, I heard this [00:26:20] today as I was driving and it kind of shocked me, you know, that, that the Netflix series, stranger Things, you know, Catapulted, Kate Bush's song that was, you know, back when I was in college, you know, back to the top of the charts and now that there was a journey song in the trailer for Stranger Things.

And because of that, it's now in the top 10, I [00:26:40] guess, in terms of play on, um, you know, various, uh, you know, radio or, or terrestrial, uh, sound streaming systems. But some of these things just kind of pop up and. It's easy to draw a conclusion and, and without looking at the bigger picture. And I think that's the part that is starting to get a little maybe [00:27:00] more difficult for people is that I need to solve a particular problem.

So I'm gonna look at this particular set of data and it's out of context with the rest of the world, or it's out of context with maybe a bigger, you know, a bigger piece of this thing. And so we're making, you know, micro decisions that, that have macro impact, but we're. Connecting [00:27:20] the dots or, or looking at the patterns like you had mentioned earlier in a, in a, in a consistent and maybe even a clever way.

Um, and that's the part that, you know, I'm, I, I feel like, you know, it's developing as we speak, but I also feel like it's, you know, there, there we're just scratching the surface. 

[00:27:34] Matt: I couldn't agree with you more. And a story I've told a couple of times on this podcast is in regards [00:27:40] to the incentives around how you even just structure the way you look at your data.

Uh, you talked about, you know, obviously. The data sets that you're looking at, you've talked about applying some degree of, of ethical, you know, thinking to it, you know, I've worked in an organization where in some case, and for all good intentions, there was a disciplinary [00:28:00] implication to results. So in particular in this case, there was, uh, if you had declining results in two consecutive years as of related to your employee, engage.

There would be corrective action for the manager who was in charge of that location. Right. Um, now in that sense, the, the thinking was we take employee engagement really [00:28:20] seriously. We care about our employees. So it's not acceptable to us that somebody sees declining engagement two years in a row because presumably if they have a year that they don't expect they can correct it in a year two.

And that's fine. In theory, you could even just ping pong back and forth between up and down, up and down, up and down. But when you have two in a row, that was where there was a, a deeper conversation. And [00:28:40] while intentions were really good, Peter, the consequences were predictable in so far as the incentives were set up in a way that people.

Did things they wouldn't otherwise do because they were afraid of the consequences. Right, exactly. They started to game. They started to game the system. They started to try and influence the result disproportionately, and they lost sight of [00:29:00] the actual behaviors that we were trying to elicit from them to achieve a high engagement score, and were more focused on the engagement.

Process and how, you know, the mechanics of the survey and just, it was a, it was an interesting exercise, a bit in, in social psychology in that way. Um, such that when the results came through, There was some cases where people [00:29:20] had results that were very much aligned to their expectations, and in some cases they were not at all.

So when we would dig into the, um, the, the results, we would find things like the manager had spent most of their time canvasing for participation in a certain score from their people and not enough time doing the things that actually drive true engagement in the location. And in some cases, people unfortunately, [00:29:40] Left the business because they had, you know, intentionally Bri people or, you know, tried to influence them to answer questions a certain way.

Again, in their mind, thinking this is the necessity to achieve a score that's going to be acceptable for me to keep my job. Yep. Not thinking about. All the ethical problems with that course of [00:30:00] thinking. Um, I share that because since then I've always been very mindful of the psychology of the data sets.

So when I came to an organization after that experience and had a bit more autonomy over the design, I said, we are not going to connect. Any kind of people metrics or people analytics to performance conversations. What we will instead do is [00:30:20] provide transparency to them and invitation for action planning and, and collaboration on that with the HR team and that various, you know, direct supervisor or business unit.

And we would then spend more time focusing in on the integrity of the process around action planning, right. And people falling through with their commitments and, you know, [00:30:40] being transparent with their employees about the results and the plans to solve them. And, you know, things like that were much more important to us than it was the actual 

[00:30:46] Guest 1: result itself, which is, which is exactly the way you should be approaching these things, is that the number, is the number, but it's the conversations around it.

It's the discussions around what the next steps are and, and the a. [00:31:00] And collaboration, that this is what we're gonna do to, to actually impact outcomes, not impact the number. Um, because you're absolutely right. I mean, if the focus is the number, you're gonna drive towards that number. But if the focus is on the outcome, then you're gonna drive towards that outcome.

And you know, the, the number is only an indicator [00:31:20] of how far or how near you are to that outcome. And I think, you know, you. Said something that really light bulb went on. You know, and I've seen this happen is that when you do set a particular metric and a manager or a set of managers, they begin to create an [00:31:40] environment where it's reach the number at all costs, not reach the outcome, and that's a self-serving.

Exercise that, that, you know, like you said, it drives employees out the door. It makes it much more difficult day to day to do your job and the focus shifts away from maybe what it is you're really good and talented at doing [00:32:00] to, okay, how do I. Make sure that we reach this, this number. I mean, you're absolutely spot on with that.

That was so I'm curious, 

[00:32:08] Matt: Peter, as you look forward with all that you've seen and where the world is at today, what do you see some of the big trends emerging for us in this particular area, I. 

[00:32:17] Guest 1: As we go forward, one of the trends that I'm really [00:32:20] interested in seeing is this idea of generational mentorship around data.

And what I mean by this is that, you know, I, I, I have four children, or I have four kids, all of them at different stages, they interpret data very differently than I do. And I think that, You know, I'm learning so much from [00:32:40] them in terms of how they process and how they interpret what they're seeing in these patterns and, and I think that quite frankly, that's one of the big areas of opportunity for any organization, regardless of how big or how small you are, is that idea of.

Cross-generational [00:33:00] listening and cross-generational conversations about what this data actually means. I think that there are so many areas where having that, uh, I'll use this example cuz it happened today To me, our marketing director is, is out of, um, Fresh outta business school. And you know, we were talking about TikTok [00:33:20] stats and I admittedly don't know a huge amount about TikTok stats, but you know, she was going into all these different things that we could look at, and I was, and it was, it was just fascinating to hear her interpretation, but also her perspective on, okay, if we did this and we did it on TikTok, this is how that could have an impact and blah, blah, blah.

And I think that that those conversations. [00:33:40] You know, I think that's gonna be a trend that I hope, uh, continues on. The second is that I think even as smart as we are about our own personal branding and our own personal privacy right now about, you know, with our data, I think that we are going to get much, much more adept at [00:34:00] managing our own personal data, you know, in the, in the marketing world.

And that's gonna go from everything for, you know, on, on what email. List. We participate and, and want to get, get contact from all the way down to even just simple things, um, you know, of, of, yeah, I don't want my name or I, I don't want my [00:34:20] email address sold in, in this bundle. I think we're gonna become very, Much more cognizant of, of where those things, uh, or where our data is popping up and, and then taking control of some of that.

The third trend that I think I'm, I'm really kind of excited about in kind of the macro level is that there are more and more. [00:34:40] Opportunities to actually learn about how pieces of data can fit together, and especially how quantitative and qualitative data can fit together in, in not only telling a story, but also revealing a new potential opportunity for either a product or a service or [00:35:00] something that that would pop up.

I think that, you know, while that's been around for a long time, I think. Taking different data sets, um, or, or at least piecing together those different data sets in new and unique ways are really gonna be, um, fascinating. I'll, I'll use this example. One of the things that, it was gonna be a pretty big trend in [00:35:20] politics, at least in 2023 and uh, in 24, is the use of podcasts as a way.

Information and messaging out right now. I mean, most politicians don't use podcasts effectively to get their infor, you know, get their message or get their information out. I think that in 23, a campaign, [00:35:40] Cycles in 23 or 24. You start, you'll start seeing that more and more. But I, I, I do think that there's gonna be a much bigger shift towards, you know, podcasting in terms of short videos because it's so easy to produce.

It's less expensive now than it used to be. So I think we're all gonna wind up being, you know, in, in. Some crazy way of broadcast TV stars, even though it'll be [00:36:00] on small screens. But those are the three trends I I see. And the one area of concern that, you know, I think we all probably need to pay attention to you is, is something that you had said earlier and that is that our capacity to handle, in our capacity to understand just the immense amount [00:36:20] of data that is at our fingertips and that we have available to.

Is that we need to continue to stay focused on what the good or what the humanistic side of that data is, versus just kind of the cold calculated reality of, of you. Management by spreadsheet versus management by [00:36:40] human. And, and I think that's the one area that causes me a little bit of pause is that I, I don't want to see us move even farther towards a society of spreadsheets.

That I don't think is gonna help us. And I don't think the metrics are, you know, are as important as, as community, as, as [00:37:00] important as, you know, some of the other, you know, kind of intangible things that, that really do make, you know, make us different than, than a lot of other societies. That's the, that's the danger and that's the fear I, I, I have is that we just move farther towards a metrics driven.

Lifestyle that makes us colder and less social. [00:37:20] 

[00:37:20] Matt: Yeah, I think it's a very real concern. What gives me confidence that we're not gonna end up in that kind of bleak, dystopian environment is that I think it's the assumption that people believe in the number, the number being the truth in that sense, and there's a growing amount of evidence that points to.

The importance of the things that you're [00:37:40] talking about, of introducing humanity into the decision making process of thinking about the impacts to employees and consumers and the broader societal impacts, and that the amount of data we're gonna collect in a whole bunch of other areas is going to provide opportunities to look at things through a.

Multiple different lenses for the first time, and not just rely solely on share [00:38:00] price or valuation or the latest headline that happens to hit the, you know, your favorite media outlet. So that gives me confidence, Peter, but I, I, I hear you. Because I think it, our record to this point hasn't given me a lot of reason for optimism.

I just have to believe that's where we're going. Otherwise, uh, you [00:38:20] know, this podcast wouldn't be as easy. 

[00:38:23] Guest 1: Yeah. And, and, you know, and, and, and just even an observation from the political world is that, So many of the campaigns now are immersed in all different types of data, whether it's polling data, whether it's TV ratings, whether it's in, in one regard, certainly [00:38:40] there's a science behind it and certainly that there is a, a definite outcome, you know?

But there's one of the things that has been lost is that, you know, kind of humanistic handshake touch, and that, that some of these campaigns, you know, they refer to them as AstroTurf, but they don't feel. As genuine as, as some of the, you know, [00:39:00] maybe more grassroots areas. I think you're right, Matt. The saving grace is that most people can.

A lack of authenticity. They can spot a lack of genuineness and they can actually fight back against that. And, and, you know, I think that's a, that's an important aspect of where we're headed. 

[00:39:19] Matt: [00:39:20] Peter, such a pleasure connecting today. Thank you so much for taking some of your time to spend it with us and, uh, looking forward to keeping in touch.

[00:39:25] Guest 1: I hope so too. Matt, thank you very much. It was great to talk to you and, uh, look forward to keeping the conversation going at some point.[00:39:40] 

[00:39:40] Matt: N O HR is a digital transformation consultancy, working at the intersection of strategy, technology, and people operations. We partner with organizations private equity and venture capital firms to accelerate value creation. And identify the organization's highest leverage initiatives. And this can take place in many forms from [00:40:00] strategic planning and alignment to technology, procurement, implementation, and integration along with organizational design process, re-engineering and change management.

With our proven track record of working with complex high growth organizations, we provide a lens that goes beyond the balance sheet, [00:40:20] increasing enterprise readiness, resilience, and value. For more information, check us out@bentohr.com.