How Writing a Book Became the Key to Entrepreneurial Success - Steve Gordon

In today’s episode, I chat with Steve Gordon, the Talahassee-based Founder of Unstoppable CEO Press, an organization supporting abundance-minded entrepreneurs, business owners, and professionals with packaging their best ideas and using them to attract meaningful clients. 

Steve’s also a prolific net-worker. We were introduced through a mutual contact, and it quickly became clear that our lives had several parallels. We each had stories regarding the transition from corporate executive to entrepreneur. We each believe in the power of thought leadership in building your brand. And we bonded over a shared bias for action. 

Steve’s passionate about writing books, and he helps leaders and entrepreneurs alike go from idea to publishing in 90 days. As someone who’s been thinking a lot lately about writing a book myself, Steve was able to dispel some tired myths for me. Writing books is hard. It takes forever, And you’ll need to spend weeks, if not months, promoting your title if it’s to get any attention in a crowded marketplace. 

Steve took apart each of these arguments and certainly gave me a needed nudge towards starting the process of beginning to consider writing a book. Baby steps, folks. Jokes aside, I had a fun time connecting with Steve and hope you enjoy our conversation. 

Steve Gordon

Steve Gordon is a 2-time entrepreneur, bestselling author, marketing strategist, consultant, and speaker. He’s interviewed 183 of the top entrepreneurs in the world as the host of The Unstoppable CEO Podcast and his books have helped thousands of business owners attract better clients and get paid more. And, as the founder of Unstoppable CEO Press, he's helped dozens of entrepreneurs write a book that lands clients, premium fees, and speaking opportunities.

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Constraints drive innovation. We tackle the most complex issues related to work & culture. And if you enjoy the work we’re doing here, consider giving us a 5-star rating, leaving a comment & subscribing. It ensures you get updated whenever we release new content & really helps amplify our message.

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Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Guest 1: I started having clients say, you know, they would see what happened to our business because of the book and they'd say, Hey, can you help me write that? And man, I resisted because writing a book is hard and it was particularly hard back then cuz they didn't have a system for it. But we continue to get asked [00:00:20] and, and you know, like every entrepreneur, you know, if you get asked.

You know, people wanna give you enough to do something. You start to think about, well, maybe I could figure out a way to make this happen.[00:00:40] 

[00:00:41] Matt: Constraints strive, innovation. Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of Thinking Inside the Box, a show where we discuss complex issues related to work and culture. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us@bentohr.com and wherever you find your favorite [00:01:00] podcast.

By searching, thinking inside the box, and if you enjoy the work we're doing here, consider leaving us a five star. A comment and subscribing. It ensures you get updated whenever we release new content and really helps amplify our message. In today's episode, I chat with Steve Gordon, the Tallahassee based founder of [00:01:20] Unstoppable CEO Press, an organization supporting abundance minded entrepreneurs, business owners, and professionals with packaging their best ideas and using them to attract meaningful clients.

Steve's also a prolific networker, and we were introduced through a mutual contact and it quickly became clear that our lives had several parallels. [00:01:40] We each had unique stories regarding the transition from corporate executive to entrepreneur. We each believe in the power of thought leadership in building brand, and we bonded over a shared bias for action.

Steve's also passionate about writing books, and he helps leaders and entrepreneurs alike go from idea to publishing in under 90. As someone who's [00:02:00] been thinking a lot lately about writing a book myself, Steve was able to dispel some tired myths. For me, myths like writing a book is hard. It takes forever, and you'll need to spend weeks, if not months, promoting your title if it's to get any attention at all in a crowded marketplace.

Steve took apart each of these arguments and certainly gave [00:02:20] me a needed nudge towards starting the process of beginning to consider writing a book. Baby Steps folks. Jokes aside, I had a fun time connecting with Steve and hope you enjoy our conversation. And now I bring you Steve Gordon. Hello Steve, how 

[00:02:35] Guest 1: are you doing today?

Hey Matt, how are you? I'm great. I'm looking forward to this conversation. 

[00:02:39] Matt: [00:02:40] Uh, we have a lot to talk about, but before we do, I'd love if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself to our audience, a bit about your background, your experiences and what led you to 

[00:02:48] Guest 1: today. Yeah. So, um, gosh, it's been more years than I wanna remember, but, uh, I came out of college with a technical degree in a, a tiny little [00:03:00] discipline of engineering and went to work for a consulting firm, an engineering consulting firm, and uh, was the 10th employee there and had a really, Great bit of luck, I think, um, in landing there.

I didn't know it at the time, but the founder sort of saw me as his [00:03:20] exit plan. So four years later he asked me to take over as ceo and then we spent the next 10 years building the company together and, and, uh, you know, kind of preparing for, for him to exit and, um, it was just tremend. Experience for, you know, I was 28 years old at the time and [00:03:40] um, and so that's kinda how I got my start in business.

The thing about that, that company, which sort of led me to what I'm doing today, is that we didn't know how to. Market or sell anything. I mean, the phone rang some days and some days it didn't. We didn't really particularly know what made it ring one day and why it was silent the others, [00:04:00] and we didn't have much of a plan to do anything about it either.

And that, um, when I took things over that kept me up at night and, you know, because the, the weight of that was now sort of on my shoulders. Thankfully we had some great contracts and we're very fortunate, but still we knew we needed. To improve in, [00:04:20] particularly in the, the sales and marketing area. Selling technical services like that, or any professional service, I think is particularly difficult because you're an expert and.

The people buying what you're selling aren't experts, so they don't really understand the subtleties or sort of the [00:04:40] ins and outs of why working with you might be better than working with someone else, uh, who has the same letters after their name. And so that really got me thinking about how do you sell this thing that's completely intangible, that nobody wakes up in the morning and wants to buy, but they have to buy it, and they can't tell [00:05:00] what's good and what's bad in the marketplace.

So how do you approach that particular problem? It's very different than if I'm selling, say, an iPhone, and people are lined up around the corner when I announce the thing, you know? And so, That particular problem. We kind of got good at that. That problem led me to start the current business, which is [00:05:20] helping other professionals in lots of different disciplines.

Figure out how to market and sell themselves, particularly when marketing and sales is not what they really would like to be doing every day. They got into what they're doing because they love doing what they do. That story resonates. That was a long answer. Yeah. And that story resonates. It's a long answer to a short [00:05:40] question.

[00:05:40] Matt: resonates for a number of reasons because I think it, it, it beautifully encapsulates the journey of most entrepreneurs where you start out with a good idea, a product or a service, and you eventually get to a place where you realize you have. Not only fulfill that service or product, but also sell it and support the administration of it and, you [00:06:00] know, all the, all the fun things that go into running a business itself.

And you had an appreciation of that coming up through your own experiences. And, you know, I, I couldn't agree with you more when you discuss things such as, you know, having challenges in. Discussing what value looks like for services. I mean, it's very [00:06:20] hard to differentiate quality when it comes to services because to your point, you oftentimes will have buyers that may not have level of sophistication as the seller.

And I think a piece that I would also add is, is the relationship. In a lot of cases, the credential you talked about with the iPhone, we have trust in Apple to produce a quality product, [00:06:40] especially when you're just starting out selling services and you don't have that brand or reputation quite on the market.

Maybe you're not a McKinsey or a Deloitte or a kpmg. You have to sell based on relationships, which are just not as vast and not as broad, and is a much more difficult value proposition. So I'm, I'm curious, you know, as you, as you go into a world where [00:07:00] the new business focuses in on authoring, what's been your finding so far as the, you know, the written word and helping CEOs and entrepreneurs, you know, write books?

What's been the value in terms of helping them build relationships? 

[00:07:15] Guest 1: Well, so I, I think the important thing to understand is we didn't start with writing [00:07:20] books. You know, we started on this mission to help people in professional services get clients and, and kind of escape the sort of revenue rollercoaster that they ride on all the time.

They're either, they, they constantly run between. I've got way too much. And I can barely keep up [00:07:40] and I'm not doing any marketing because of that cuz I can barely keep up with the paying work that I have. And you know, the next thing they know all of that, those projects have finished and now they haven't been doing any marketing and so they're scrambling and doing business development to get the next stuff in the door and they go back and forth between that And, and so we really started to solve [00:08:00] that problem and went, you know, we've been on now.

12 year exploration of that problem. And we started with the thing that every business says that they, you know, they rely on, which is referrals. And, um, I figured out a way to sort of [00:08:20] innovate that process and was encouraged by a colleague to write a book about it. So I wrote that book in 2014 and it was a, it was a challenge to write, but uh, what I discovered was that it changed our business over.

And I started having clients say, you know, they would see what happened to our business [00:08:40] because of the book. And they'd say, Hey, can you help me write that? And man, I resist it because writing a book is hard. And it was particularly hard back then cuz they didn't have a system for it. But we continue to get asked and, and you know, like every entrepreneur, you know, if you get asked.

You know, people wanna give you enough to do something. You start to think about, well, maybe I could figure [00:09:00] out a way to make this happen. And so that's kind of how we got into it. Um, and really we put that focus for the whole business, you know, in place about two and a half years ago, where that's, this is really the thing that we're doing now, is helping professionals, helping experts write a book that's gonna go out and, [00:09:20] and sell for them.

So you mentioned the relationship piece. And relationship selling is great, but it is very much limited by the clock because you can't see everyone in a day and it's limited by proximity. Who's around you and who do you know? And it's actually, I think, one of the worst ways to sell [00:09:40] because basically you're, most of the time when you're making a relationship sale, it's a sale of convenience because the per the buyer doesn't know anyone else that does what you do.

Nothing wrong with that. It's tough to get in those positions and once someone's in that position with a buyer, it's really tough to, to kind of get [00:10:00] in there just based on relationship. What is, I think, a more powerful way to sell, which is where the book, um, I think helps most, is to take your best thinking, you know, the innovative way that you help your, your clients, and, Put that down into a [00:10:20] book, put those ideas in and let the book go out into the world using your best ideas and let the ideas do the selling for you, and those will Trump relationship because you'll, you'll get.

An idea in front of someone that they hadn't thought about before, and that idea will captivate them and they'll go, I really need that. And if the person that they have the [00:10:40] relationship with can't deliver it, guess what you're in. Love that. So that's, that's kind of how we think about the books. Oh, I love that.

I 

[00:10:46] Matt: think it's, I think it's a really wise way to look at it. I also think it accounts for the fact that relationship, to your point, it's predicated on a scarcity of time and also in a lot of cases, proximity. We don't naturally build relationships with [00:11:00] people that are not immediately adjacent to us, and therefore, unless we're very thoughtful about, you know, building markets, um, you pre becoming an entrepreneur or even as an entrepreneur and small business owner, it can be difficult to build the right kind of relationship.

So I, I completely appreciate that.

Hey everyone, it's Matt here. I hope you're [00:11:20] enjoying today's discuss. And before we continue, I want to make you aware of my latest creative project this week at Work presented in partnership with my good friend Chris Rainey of HR Leaders. Each Friday will live stream on LinkedIn at 7:00 AM Pacific Standard Time.

That's 10:00 AM Eastern Standard Time and 3:00 [00:11:40] PM GMT for our European viewers, and together bring you the latest trends, news on topics emanating from organizations, everything from culture to technology, and the future of work. Joining is easy. Just follow me on LinkedIn. Click the bell at the top right hand side of my profile and you'll get notified when we go live each.[00:12:00] 

And whether you do experience the content live or later, if you've been following me for a while, you'll no doubt recognize the fun banter Chris and I have developed over the years and whether it's been podcasts or digital event. We're so excited to, again, bring you the topics affecting today's workplaces and their leaders.

And now back to our [00:12:20] discussion. I'm curious from the putting your best ideas out there, we, we talk to entrepreneurs every day. You talk to them every day as well. Many of them have a real concern about releasing I. They may be nervous about sharing some of their best thinking cuz they're [00:12:40] concerned that people might take it, use it for themselves, which, you know, has always been a troubling thought for me.

But I, I hear it enough that I always think, okay, I at least need to account for it, my process. How do you respond to questions like that when you're talking to 

[00:12:52] Guest 1: folks in the industry? I get that question all the time and, um, I have a couple of, of answers for [00:13:00] it. One is, That there's nothing new under the sun, that no matter how amazing you think your proprietary method is, you're probably not the first to think of it.

Likely what you've done is you've combined the thinking of two or three or four other people who've come before you and you've innovated, and that's great, [00:13:20] but it's, you know, it's not such a stretch to think that others couldn't do the same. And so, Don't get too caught up about it. And the other is that what we're really talking about is writing a.

A hundred to 150 page book. And if you're really an expert, do you think we could [00:13:40] possibly capture all of your wisdom and expertise in a hundred to 150 pages? To me, that's a pretty thin expert. And, and my third answer, um, and final answer to that question that that comes up is that there are two types of clients in the world.

There are. DIYs and then there [00:14:00] are people who actually will pay you, and the DIYers are never your client. So the fact that you give them a way to go do it doesn't actually cost you anything, and it creates good will among them. So we will have people who have gotten one of my books and gotten great success implementing the ideas on their own and yet, [00:14:20] You know, they'll go and share it with three or four or five or 20 people.

And out of the people that they share that idea with, we'll get people who don't wanna do it themselves and Will, who will come to us and happily pay us, you know, our fees to, to help them with it. So, um, I think it's a. It's, it's nice to have that [00:14:40] excuse, but it's really just an excuse to remain small.

It's not a valid excuse that, you know, that is a threat to your business. 

[00:14:47] Matt: And it supposes to your point, a whole bunch of assumptions that are really limiting in terms of their belief and in terms of their, you view them as an entrepreneur. You mentioned earlier, Steve, that writing a book is hard, and I think that's [00:15:00] a well supported statement from anyone who's ever attempted it or written one or more.

how do you make it easier for the people you work with to get what's in their head onto the written 

[00:15:11] Guest 1: page? So when I wrote my, my first book, it really wasn't the first one. There were two more that didn't quite make it to the finish line [00:15:20] before that, and then, I made a discovery. I was listening to a podcast and I wish I could remember who, who it was that was being interviewed, but he described how he was getting all of his best clients from this book that he had written and that it had taken him, you know, years to figure out how to finally write the book.

And, and [00:15:40] when he did, he broke the book down in a certain way and organized it in a certain. That was the breakthrough for me to write my first. Um, what we've done since then is, is kind of refined that process and what we've discovered is that if you can do the, the thinking [00:16:00] that goes into the book before you start writing and do it to a, a level of detail, Most people don't want to do that.

Then when you go to do the writing, it actually can happen really fast. So my record for writing a hundred page book is eight hours. Wow. And that's because I probably did eight hours of [00:16:20] thinking going into it, and I had a really detailed outline and. What we teach our clients now is that you want to have this detailed outline.

In the very end level of the detail should be a series of questions because the brain can't help but answer questions. And when you're doing your writing, [00:16:40] you, you want the brain to be engaged in answering our question that's right before it. And you don't want it to have to go very far before it hits the next.

And that's, that's where people go off the rails when they're writing is they'll think, okay, well this chapter's about this topic and I have three points that I wanna make. And somewhere between [00:17:00] 0.1 and 0.2, they will fall into a rabbit hole and they will be lost, and then they'll come back the next day and look at what they'd written and go, I, I don't know what I've done.

I, I mean, I did this twice and threw two books. The difference is in getting the thinking done clearly up front and not doing it in a vacuum. That's the other thing. [00:17:20] I don't know any successful author that has gone off into the writing cabin with their little chapo on and their pipe and, you know, looked at Walden Pond and, and written a book successfully.

Most are doing it with some feedback, you know, with our clients. They get it from us. You can get that with an accountability [00:17:40] partner, but you need somebody. Reflect your thinking off of, because your, your thinking is gonna get better and clearer. 

[00:17:49] Matt: And if you're writing it for other people, which I hope in most cases you are, it's gonna be a better final product in the end when you get different sources of input.

So I think that's really smart advice and I love your [00:18:00] input around the questions. I think that's a really, um, unique and thoughtful way of looking at how to, not really trick our minds, but how to, how to best hack the inherent, uh, gifts that our mind has. Writing is difficult for people. Organizing your thoughts can be challenging.

And, uh, if this is your first attempt at it, some people might be having low [00:18:20] grade, you know, post traumatic stress disorder from having to write, you know, exams and essays, you know, back in university or in high school. So it, I, I completely appreciate. It's, it's also, I think to your earlier point for many folks, What they are called to do.

How do you work with clients that may not [00:18:40] have a strong passion for writing, an enthusiasm for the creative, and really just want to get behind 

[00:18:44] Guest 1: the tools again? Well, um, the easiest way we help them get that done is we write it for them. You know, so we'll take them through a process where we develop that detailed outline and structure for the book and, and then we.

Talk through that [00:19:00] with them to get all of the ideas out of their head and get it out in a very, you know, structured and, and, uh, clear way. And then we'll have a writer that will, will take that and, and you know, because we've had them talk through a lot of that, we're able to match their voice and get their ideas out.

So for a lot of business owners, that's a great [00:19:20] solution. And, you know, for others, We'll, we'll take them through a process where they can talk it, you know, and again, that's, that's another real advantage of having that level of detail and having those questions. So we have a program where, you know, authors will come through, business owners will come [00:19:40] through and they won't work with one of our writers, but they'll build that structure and then they'll basically, Dictate their book by answering the questions audibly.

And you know, with all the, the AI tools that are available right now to turn your, your words into text on the page, it, it's also a very easy and quick process. So there are a lot of ways to, to [00:20:00] overcome that feeling. If you don't feel like you're a confident writer, that shouldn't be the hold up. I'm curious, 

[00:20:06] Matt: Steve.

I mean, goes without saying. The last two and a half years have been challenging for all of us in our own ways, and it's been challenging for entrepreneurs in particular, especially those that are building their businesses and having [00:20:20] to shift their businesses for a market that has very rapidly digitized in the last two and a half years.

I'm curious if you've seen any impact in terms of your business, if you've seen a different kind of person maybe speaking with you, or if you've seen different topics bubble up more to the surface around certain kind of books. Has there been any themes you've been able to [00:20:40] pull outta the last two and 

[00:20:40] Guest 1: a half years?

The biggest theme we've seen is just that there are an increasing number of, of people who are looking for a way to differentiate themselves. Um, I, I think we're going through this. Transition where you've got people who, uh, were working for someone else who have [00:21:00] a skill and who are going and taking that skill set now to the market independently.

Some are doing it as side gigs, but many are doing it as, you know, as their, their main thing. They're starting a business and they're finding that it's a really crowded market out there, and they're looking. For ways, desperately [00:21:20] looking for ways to stand out and you know, a book is one really great way to do that.

It's not the only way to do that. We think it's the one of the more accessible ways to do it and one of the more protected ways to do it because. The thought in most people's mind is that this is really hard or that I'm not expert enough. And so that [00:21:40] puts sort of a natural moat around it. Even though thousands and thousands of books are published every week, you know, there likely aren't that many published in your specific topic area.

And for people who are practicing in a, in a niche industry or locally or regionally, it can be a huge differentiator where none of your local competi. [00:22:00] Have a book, you know, and so we've got a, a client here, uh, who's local to us. My only local client, we've been working together 10 years. We've helped him write four books.

He is the only financial professional in this region who's written four books. And so he's now seen as the preeminent [00:22:20] expert and leader in that industry as a. It has a 

[00:22:23] Matt: wonderful halo effect. And to your point, it, it definitely bridges a gap around credibility that is so important when you're trying to differentiate in any way, particularly around services.

I, I'm curious, Steve, you wouldn't mind indulging a curiosity of mine. I [00:22:40] had a chance to go through your background in the prep for this interview, in this conversation. And I saw that you have a university degree in surveying and mapping. I'd love to learn bit more about 

[00:22:49] Guest 1: that . Yeah. Um, Well, there's, there's kind of two parts to that story.

There's how I got into that, and then what it, that of course, was one of the. [00:23:00] Sort of, uh, accidents that happened in my life because that led to the, the opportunities we talked about at the beginning to, to run a company at age 28. But, uh, yeah, I was going to, uh, school at the University of Florida and was probably having a little more fun than I should have, and probably putting a little less emphasis on [00:23:20] academics than I should have, you know, and, and really.

Figure out what I wanted to do. I went home one summer, um, this is a long time ago, this is the early nineties. There was a, a recession on, nobody was hiring at all the sorts of places that would normally hire college students for the summer. And um, my dad [00:23:40] had a. A friend who owned a surveying engineering company, and, uh, he got me a, a job as, uh, what what's called a Rodman, which is like the low man on the totem pole if there was a low man on the totem pole.

Um, and so I was doing hard manual labor all that summer in, uh, here in Florida, [00:24:00] which is not a fun place to do that in the summer. Trudging through swamps and. Over snakes and swimming, past alligators and all that good stuff, literally. And, uh, then found out that there was actually a degree program in it.

I don't know why I decided that, that that was the thing after that summer. But after the summer I thought, you know what? This [00:24:20] might be something interesting. And, uh, there was some great career opportunities at the time. Um, I didn't know it would lead to what it led to, but I'm, I'm really grateful that it did, because I can't think.

Any other path that would've put me in a position. Run a business at that age. Well, and what an 

[00:24:38] Matt: incredible story. I mean, [00:24:40] just being out in that type of environment. I'm have biased cause I've spent a lot of my own years in remote parts of the world and in amongst nature. And some of the greatest lessons I've learned about leadership occurred in a place where there was not a internet signal to be found.

And. Uh, I, I really [00:25:00] appreciate that story for a number of reasons. I'm curious, Steve, as you look forward to, you know, the months ahead, what do you see for yourself in terms of next steps, either in the business or personally? 

[00:25:13] Guest 1: So in, in terms of the business, um, we're seeing tremendous growth ahead, you know, [00:25:20] We really feel like we've simplified a, a complex process in a unique way.

And, um, and that's the feedback that we're getting from the market. Um, we're starting to get refugees from competitors who've not for whatever reason, felt like they didn't have success. That tells me that [00:25:40] we're doing something right and we're, we're seeing our clients get great results. And so for the, you know, the, the future, my goal is to.

The best company in the world at publishing lead generating books for people in professional services. And [00:26:00] that is the vehicle that we believe is most powerful for that type of business owner to create for themselves, uh, a steady flow of new opportunity so that they can continue to grow and get off that revenue rollercoaster.

And, you know, and. You know, live [00:26:20] the kinda life that they wanna live. You know, it used to be that if you lived in North America and you got a professional degree, whether that was law or medicine or accounting or engineering or any of the others, and you went to work in a firm, or you started a [00:26:40] firm, that that was almost guaranteed to produce a, uh, a, a pretty nice standard of living.

And then the internet came along and I think we're in a period. Um, in fact in my, my new book, I called it the Great Sorting and you're seeing professionals being sort of sorted into two camps. [00:27:00] In the one camp you have people who are gonna be pair of hands, experts where they show up because they have a unique expertise or skill set.

They're gonna work as literally a substitute pair of hands to do the thing they do for their clients. But there's not anything really unique about the way that they do it, and they can be [00:27:20] easily replaced. So that's sort of the commodity end of it, and we're seeing that grow. I mean, even in professions you never would've imagined, you know, we're seeing it really hit law hard right now.

And then on the other end of the spectrum, you're gonna have transformational experts who have developed their own. [00:27:40] Ip, their own ideas. They're out speaking and, and publishing about those ideas and creating market leadership for themselves, and they're gonna live a very different life. And, Our mission is to take people who are in that commoditized group and who know they can do better and to [00:28:00] move them into that transformational expert category.

And so that's really where we're focused right now for the future. And I think 

[00:28:07] Matt: individuals considering their own futures should. Really think about the conversation we've had today. Uh, I think thought leadership, Steve, is absolutely the path forward for people that are trying to [00:28:20] differentiate themselves in a service based industry.

Um, you know, it's individuals like yourselves and organizations like yours that help people realize, you know, those types of benefits, perhaps realize a dream that they would would've had in the past and to really help support. A goal that they have to really find that level of empowerment. [00:28:40] You know, as an entrepreneur myself, I can absolutely identify with the challenge of having to not only, again, provide services, but then find the next set of customers for which need services.

And there's this constant loop of needing to find clients and supporting clients and to find clients supporting clients. It can be a very exhausting, [00:29:00] um, hamster wheel and, you know, the opportunity to. Anchor type levels of thought leadership, like books, like having a TED Talk, like having those large kind of signature type content pieces is such a critical element to anybody who's hoping to find that type of harmony and find that consistent flow of revenue, whether you, again, choose to do it as [00:29:20] an entrepreneur outside of an organization or.

Pursue a side hustle. So Steve, thanks so much for giving us the insight today. It's super illuminative. I'm gonna link all of your details in the show notes of this podcast so folks can find you offline. Otherwise, just wanna wish, wish you really well and uh, look forward to catching up real soon. Thanks, 

[00:29:36] Guest 1: Matt.

This has been a lot of fun. Thank you.[00:29:40] 

[00:29:47] Matt: N O HR is a digital transformation consultancy working at the intersection of. Technology and people operations. We partner with organizations, private equity and venture capital firms to accelerate value creation [00:30:00] and identify the organization's highest leverage initiatives. And this can take place in many forms from strategic planning and alignment to technology, procurement, implementation, integration along with organizational design process, re-engineering, and change management.

With our proven track record of [00:30:20] working with complex high growth organizations, we provide a lens that goes beyond the balance sheet, increasing enterprise readiness, resilience, and value. For more information, check us out@bentohr.com.