How the Best Designs Rely on People - Wolfgang Bremer

In today’s episode, I chat with Wolfgang Bremer, an accomplished German-Canadian design expert with a unique blend of design and product knowledge garnered over 20+ years’ experience working with the likes of Nokia and SAP, along with numerous highly funded startups, leading global design teams creating products used by industry giants such Google, Coca-Cola and Porsche.

Today, as the Vice President of Design at Elli, a brand under the prestigious Volkswagen Group, he continues to shape the world of design with his creative problem-solving skills and meticulous attention to detail.

Our discussion begins with an exploration into the origins of Wolfgang’s fascination with design and product development, continues with his journey working for and with Fortune 500 companies, and delves into his most memorable projects. 

Along the way, he shares his unique approach to consumer software design, his guiding principles for leading design teams, and how an entrepreneurial mindset has influenced his work.

It was a really fun discussion, and I hope you enjoy our conversation, as much as I did recording it.

Wolfgang Bremer

Wolfgang Bremer is a German Canadian award-winning design veteran with 20+ years of experience. He has managed global design teams and worked on products used by tens of millions of users in 190+ countries. Wolfgang likes building products and simplifying people’s lives. He currently serves as the Vice President & Head of Design at Elli – A Brand of the Volkswagen Group.

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Constraints drive innovation. We tackle the most complex issues related to work & culture. And if you enjoy the work we’re doing here, consider giving us a 5-star rating, leaving a comment & subscribing. It ensures you get updated whenever we release new content & really helps amplify our message.

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Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, design, work, kinds, product, b2b, designer, startup, organizations, companies, wolfgang, find, information, curious, process, user, experience, person, guess, depends

SPEAKERS

Matt

00:02

So I usual, I want to say countermeasure is to try to jointly develop something that client in the sense of to give them an incentive that they spend a certain amount of their precious time with you with the understanding that their input and their time will help your company to make the software better, so that it's in the end of benefit for them again.

Matt  00:45

Constraints drive innovation. Hey, everyone, its Matt here for another episode of thinking inside the box, a show where we discuss innovative ways organizations and their leaders overcome complex issues at work. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us wherever you find your favorite podcasts by searching thinking inside the box. And if you enjoy the work we're doing here, consider leaving us a five star rating, a comment and subscribing. It ensures you get updated whenever we release new content and really helps amplify our message. In today's episode, I chat with Wolfgang Bremmer and accomplished German Canadian design expert with a unique blend of both design and product knowledge garnered over 20 plus years of experience working with the likes of Nokia, and SAP, along with numerous highly funded startups leading global design teams creating products used by industry giants, such as Google, Coca Cola, and Porsche. Today as the Vice President of Design at Le a brand under the prestigious Volkswagen Group, he continues to shape the world of design with his creative problem solving skills, and meticulous attention to detail. Our discussion begins with an exploration into the origin of Wolfgang's fascination with design and product development continues with his journey working for and with Fortune 500 companies, and delves into his most memorable projects. Along the way, he shares his unique approach to consumer software design, his guiding principles for leading design teams, and how an entrepreneurial spirit has influenced his work. It was a really cool conversation. We don't often get guests like Wolfgang on the show. So it's awesome to have the chat. And I hope you enjoy it as much as I did recording it. And now I bring you walking Bremmer Wolfgang, it is a beautiful sunny day here in Ottawa, Canada. Where are you calling in from today?

02:40

Hey, man, I'm calling in from Berlin, Germany. It's sunny ish. I would say I see some clouds on the sky. But it's, it's a good day.

Matt  02:48

A good day, a good day for a conversation. You know, I've had a chance to connect with you briefly offline. Looking forward to our chat. Before we get into it, if you wouldn't mind for our audience's benefit. Just walking through a bit about who Wolfgang is your background, your experiences. And what led you today?

03:03

Sure. Yeah, my name is Wolfgang, I'm German, Canadian. I mean, German, you can tell by by my first name for sure. I live in Berlin, Germany. And I'm a designer. I started my career in print design, did web design, multimedia design, like everything in between, I guess. And I used to live in different countries came around a little bit. And now I'm back in Germany was my family. And I'm working on energy related things, and car related things.

Matt  03:37

That sounds really interesting. Looking forward to getting into that. I mean, I know I had a chance to look at your background and your experiences. And obviously, you've done a lot in your career work with a lot of notable brands, globally speaking, you have close to if not over 20 years of experience in design and product development. And I'm always curious when I meet people who are talented and smart like yourself, what originally drew you to that field, and then follow up with that would be as what continues to motivate you in that work today?

04:05

These are really good questions. I'm honestly I'm not sure if I have a good answer. For me what what struck me during school was that I usually are not the type of person who is good at I don't say paying attention but doing a lot of reading and writing and these kinds of things. For me, it's always something more tangible, I want to say. So back in the day and at school, I was very into arts not not like artists in there like creating art, but like learning how to draw you know, with a pencil and trying to draw certain things difficult things like drawing with perspective and sketching things and all these kinds of things because I felt that the end Well, I actually had something visible and like feasible there, you know, like I created something out of nothing. Whereas if it's If it's about other things I felt, there's a conversation and so on. But, you know, it's all in the mind kind of thing, you don't bring anything tangible to a piece of paper, almost like that. And that was the one side. And the other side. I was always very curious about about cars. When I was a kid, my parents were always impressed. And I guess which parent is not impressed by their kids, that I could tell the difference between different cars make and models. And when they would update the car, like refresh kind of thing of their headlights, taillights, change sort of stuff, you know, and I could tell them, even at night, driving behind the car, I could look at the taillight and say, Hey, this must be this and make and that model, you know, and they were just obviously impressed though, it seems like a half an eye for detail. And putting these two things together, I was looking for something, I guess, which I can do professionally with my life, which is interesting and meaningful, and hopefully, also helpful for people. So I guess that's how I ended up being a designer,

Matt  06:08

I can absolutely resonate with the idea of having a hard time paying attention to things. It you know, when the world has a big A impressive and, you know, just interesting place, I've always found it difficult to focus deeply, I have a lot of envy for my friends and colleagues who can do that deep dive and who the researchers of the world, the academics of the world that can really focus on one function. I've always been somebody who's like to synthesize large sums of information and goes broad, as opposed to deep and certainly resonate with both that perspective, but also your cult of service. I mean, we're in a place now in the world where there are certainly no shortage of problems. And I think it requires innovative thinking for us to be able to move some of those things forward, and requires that broad scale thinking to bring together different stakeholder groups to make some impact. And, you know, when I think about, you know, again, your background and experiences, you've worked with some, again, pretty amazing companies, and whether those be fortune 500, companies like Nokia and SAP, you've obviously gained some insights. And I'm curious as you've worked along your journey, working towards this ultimate goal, like, what are some insights you've picked up along in your career as it pertains to design development, human sociology, I'll leave it open ended, like just curious about some of the things you've picked up along the way?

07:32

That's a great question. That's a lot of things I would say. But I think one of the most important things and you actually mentioned it, is like bringing people or stakeholders together, right? Because as a designer, you are just, I mean, you just don't like to hear, but you're just, you're just part of a team, right? And, like, in a good sense, right? Your your your role partially is to bring people and stakeholders together, to jointly create something out of nothing. And hopefully, that something will be a great product with a great experience in the end, right. But you as a designer, you can't do that by yourself, you have to understand the business side of things, you have to understand, you know, the domain area, you're building your product in, you have to understand the people, you have to go out and see what is on the market, you have to be able to market the product in the future. You have to work together with sales to understand from them what is sellable, and many more functions, right? And then you have to bring all these people and voices and thoughts and opinions, right? And gut feelings, of course, together and you have to try to make sense of that. Right. And the problem I find very often is that we don't focus enough on the people and the process. But there'll be the fight, I want to say like, like everybody cites their own little battle, you know, and everybody faces their own little laps challenges. But we, we often also lose sight of that we're actually a team, right? Like, we should be acting like one team with one joint goal and mission, right? Facilitate facilitating maybe more as a design and bringing the people together on the path to achieve that, that common goal. And I think so one of the key differences I guess, between startups and corporations is well the sheer size right? I found that at Nokia and SAP. There are so many things going on you might not even be aware of. The next two what you yourself together a group of people are working on that it's easy to lose sight of okay, what is the goal and what is happening? Left and right of you? And is there something you you could leverage existing out of your little ecosystem to make your own? Yeah, your own life or your own world? life easy, I guess, you know, like, bring smarter people than you into the group to help you create better products in the end. At startups, I find the struggle can be that there's a feeling of there's not enough people to tackle the challenges. While at the same time, you might have a hard time identifying who's actually wearing the hat and is able to make certain decisions in certain area, right? So there's always this, this interesting combination out of your size plus structure plus ownership or responsibility or accountability was where do we actually want to go? What is the what is the what is the goal, what is the best path there. And the combination of these things probably is like the Holy Grail, right, like getting things like the right people together, being able to create a path to whether or not not and jointly create a great product with a great experience.

Matt  11:03

Hey, everyone, its Matt here. Hope you're enjoying today's discussion. And before we continue, I want to make you aware of my latest creative project. This week at work, presented in partnership with my good friend Chris Rainey of HR leaders. Each Friday, we'll live stream on LinkedIn at 7am. Pacific Standard Time. That's 10am Eastern Standard Time, and 3pm GMT for our European viewers. And together bring you the latest trends, news on topics emanating from organizations. Everything from culture to technology, and the future of work. Joining is easy, just follow me on LinkedIn, click the bell at the top right hand side of my profile. And you'll get notified when we go live each week. And whether you do experience the content live or later. If you've been following me for a while, you'll no doubt recognize the fun banter Chris and I have developed over the years. And whether it's been podcasts or digital events, we're so excited to again, bring you the topics affecting today's workplaces and their leaders. And now back to our discussion. I can absolutely see those challenges. One thing that struck me and I don't have a design background in the traditional sense, but certainly I've interacted with lots of designers in my era. And you know, one thing that separates designers, for me from the general populace is vision that a designer generally has a very strong vision, a destination in mind, a clear articulation of how they're going to visualize or illustrate or realize some sort of final destination. And you mentioned that part of the design process involves soliciting opinions from a large number of stakeholders, many of whom likely don't share the same vision, the same creative inclinations. And I'm curious how you've been able to navigate that when you're talking to people that may be sitting in finance or it or human resources, people that weren't at the earliest stages of the evolution of the product, or the design or the concept, how you're able to bring those kinds of stakeholders along the journey with you to ensure that you don't compromise too much on the original design, while at the same time, to your point building alignment and consensus by incorporating people's perspectives along the way.

13:20

Yeah, I mean, honestly, not sure. Still not sure after 20 years, if designers are the ones who should have the vision because so as a like, for me, as a designer, I also work in this trifecta of let's say product engineering and design. And these three, mainly you bring together together to create a product. Of course, there's more like marketing and sales and, and what have you, right. But I think this is the trifecta, which creates a product. And I would be the wisdom side more on the side of the product people, you know, it's like, what product do they want to build? Why what what is the goal? And design should very strongly be involved in that, but not necessarily driving it, you know, so So designers, and especially researchers, in my opinion, they should go out, and then should understand the people in their current situations and the market and what else is out there product wise, and what products are people using? And how are they using them? And what is the pros and cons and what's the daily? How does their day look like and all these kinds of things, to draw a clear picture about the different kinds of users we would have for the product we are attempting to build right and bringing this information in to the group of people to the stakeholders to be able to make better decisions. You know, because I think in the end if we don't bring this kind of information in we are basically fishing in the dark, you know, like everybody is sure has the gut feeling and the endless arguments about I don't know who's like who's got failing to listen to I guess. But if you don't bring the necessary information to the table, we cannot make proper decisions. You know, it's just like guesswork in the end. And I think in this situation, it's very important that design is involved to, to bond the stakeholders together over this kind of information, which can be brought to the table to make hopefully the right decisions in a matter of, yeah, in a matter of time, I guess, right? Because in the end, everything costs money. And time is money, basically. And we want to be able to get somewhere in time, I guess.

Matt  15:37

Yeah, it's great point. And one thing that struck me about your background is you manage large global design teams and worked on products used by companies such as Google and Coca Cola, and Porsche. And I'm just curious, you know, just kind of geeking out what are some of the most memorable projects that you've been involved with

15:57

actually working on quite some projects for these other companies, some on the well, mainly on the b2b side, actually, as you can imagine, these these huge companies, and they have a lot of things going on, which might not even be customer facing, right. I mean, they themselves have to be organized on all sorts of levels, and in all sorts of ways to actually run their businesses, right. And when, when I used to work on b2b products we were working on, on solutions, which, which we tried to build in a way that they enable those kinds of companies, right. I used to, I used to say, in the past that when you think about a, for example, about a shipping company, like a company, which ships packages, you know, it's not so much about shipping the packages, but it's more about what is in the packages. And, you know, how can you bring a smile in somebody else's face by shipping something to that person, right, so the narrative is, it's not just like you're shipping a box from A to B, but you're actually, you're actually being able to potentially give something to, to a loved one, far away, you know, and I think this, this holds true, this kind of narrative from a b2b software point of view, that you're actually building something to enable a different company to be successful with whatever they're doing right, be at Google, or Samsung, or Porsche, you know, like, all these kinds of things they deliver and they're working on, they build on the back of, I want to say on the back of other software on the back of other tools or processes, right. And in the b2b area, you hopefully are able to build products, which support their, their missions and their visions, I don't think I have a very specific memory of like, creating exactly something which which solves the perfect thing. But I think what is what is often important, on the b2b side of things, to build things, small scale and large scale, always at the same time, because there will always be a process which starts small, but might turn into something really huge and humongous. You know, and we always have to make sure that whatever we build can actually scale to, I don't know, potentially, I want to say like 1000s of users doing something at the same time in the product, you know, like list views come to mind, you know, that you're able to look through a massive amount of data and filters, and how can you make it intuitive across languages and all these kinds of things, right? So it's, it's a lot about user experience, maybe not really, maybe nowadays much more about the user experience, then I want to say 10 years plus ago, because back then, especially in the b2b area, the person who made the purchase decision was actually not the user, but it was more like in the IT department, right? If they looked for buying a piece of software, they would literally go through a checklist, does it support this and that and this and that great, which is the cheapest, okay, you're gonna get this one. Money says everybody's happy, hopefully, and nowadays much, much more shifts towards that the budget sits with the person actually using the product. So they have a much stronger opinion on how good the quality of the product should be, and especially the user experience. So this kind of factor plays a bigger and bigger role in these things. How does the design

Matt  19:33

process differ when you're talking about b2b versus b2c?

19:38

I would say from a designer's point of view, the biggest difference, and as well, the biggest problem is to when you design for b2b to get access to actual users. Because b2b users are usually busy and are not willing to spend any amount of time helping you build your product, no matter how If they use your product in the end, whether it's a b2c solution, you can often depending on the product, obviously. So Nokia used to work on a on a mapping application similar to Google Maps, you could potentially in the city you live, go to a coffee store, ask somebody there to ever use a mapping solution on your phone, almost every hand would go up. And you could ask them, Can I have five minutes of your time, I'm gonna buy you a coffee. And you can basically try something with them. Right then and right there. With b2b, it's much more complex, you have to much clearer identify who exactly is your user? What exactly is the use case, and then you have to find a way to get access to a bunch of exactly those kinds of users. And these are really rare to get access to. So usual, I want to say countermeasure is to try to jointly develop something with clients, in the sense of to give them an incentive that they spend a certain amount of their precious time with you with the understanding that they are input and their time will help your company to make the software better, so that it's in the end of benefit for them again. And sometimes companies have the so called Lighthouse customers, you know, where like, these kind of processes can run very smoothly together. But often, it's also a lot of a lot of work and a lot of people involved to actually pull these kinds of things off, right? Because just like in any relationship, you have for us to get to a certain point or a certain level, to be able to jointly work on these kinds of things, have a common understanding, identify the right stakeholders, have a vision have a process in place, and all these kinds of things. It's not just like a coffee star who can use this mapping application kind of thing. So I think that is probably the biggest difference, I would say,

Matt  22:01

Well, I'm sure it's a big difference among many you've seen over the course of your 20 plus years in the design world, I'm sure one of the biggest innovations during that time is the advent of mobile, and the fact that we all now have little marketing tools, you know, supercomputers attached to our hands most of the time. I'm curious when you think about design, how the differences between desktop and mobile plays into it.

22:22

Yeah, that's that's a very big difference. I mean, the most obvious difference, I guess, is the screen size. Right? If you compare a desktop screen versus a phone, because it's a smartwatch, me that there's well, in between, right? It really depends on on many things, you know, I don't think it can easily be broken down into, oh, just follow these five rules kind of thing, and you'll be fine. But it really depends on the use case depends on the app depends on the user on the situation, all these kinds of things. So one thing I learned at my time at Nokia was that one of the key, I want to say design principles, for mobile to design for was Glenn's ability, you know, because you actually did not want the person to constantly be on their phones, no matter if people are constantly on their phone these days. But you actually wanted to enable them to look for something or at something like really, I think lands, get this information and get out altogether, get out of it again, you know, like dive in, look at something get out. For example, maps, you don't want to constantly run around looking at your screen trying to find a way but you just glanced at it. Whereas on desktop, you're most likely sitting somewhere more or less comfortably, you have like a fully fledged computer, with the trackpad or with the mouse or the keyboard in front of you, you have a much larger screen, you can consume much more, but you can also input much easier, right? Because of the keyboard and other things. So there's like, like, I would say these main differences. And of course, it depends on the situation where you're in, like if you're outside, for example, looking at the phone or watch, you have to take into account the visibility, if the sun is reflecting from your screen, which often on the computer is not a problem, because usually people are using their computers indoors, I would say that there's all these kinds of things to take into account.

Matt  24:13

I'd be remiss as an HR leader in my background to not ask this question, which is, as you consider your expertise and the work you've done with large cross functional teams and a global context. You talk a lot about design and leadership and team development. And I'm just curious, as you work towards large projects that have tight timelines, budget, client expectations, and at the same time you're trying to build and nurture and develop and inspire confidence and innovation and creativity within your teams. How do you strike that balance?

24:48

I think that is probably one of the hardest things one one has to do. Because often I find it's that people focus on focus on the actual work. cool to see and I was like, Oh, we have to ship this feature for this product. Yes, the timeline has to be in budget and blah, blah, blah. And then you have to focus right there, I guess, like, kind of simple. But I think what, what's actually much more important is to focus on the people behind those features, you know, I mean, these are actual people, doing the work, going out talking to people sitting down designing something, or calling something or building a communication or marketing strategy and all these kinds of things. I think it's very important to enable those people and to, to really leverage all they can do, right. I mean, nobody wants to micro manage anybody, and I can't believe anybody would want to do that. So I think it's very important to put people into a position where they can really be their best selves, so that they can do their best work. But doing that is probably the toughest part. Because how do you, you know, you still have you have to find this, this perfect balance between guiding people, and a certain amount of structure was this enough flexibility at the same time, right. And then you just have people be their best selves, right, and that get out of the way kind of thing. But it's not always easy, because in the end, we're all people right on the like, on both sides. And we all communicate differently, we might speak different languages, you know, we might most likely have different backgrounds, we might have different expectations. So the communication part is probably one of the hardest thing, right? Because we have to also remind ourselves, like the things we are saying, are describing things, which are very clear in our minds, but I guess most of the times, but putting this on paper, or like phrasing it and talking to somebody else, I feel we often, you know, we don't say things because they are very clear. In our mind, we feel like we don't have to have you don't have to even mention them like common common sense kind of things. But I think it's incredibly important, you know, to set proper expectations. Because if that does not happen, then how can you expect the other person to do the thing you expect them to do? You know, so I think striking the balance there, it's probably one of the hardest things?

Matt  27:28

Well, and I assume it's a similar answer when we consider your experience in large global organizations, but also in startups. And I know from my own experience, that oftentimes, I'm leaning upon both of those experiences, and I'm bringing a bit of the startup world into the corporate context and a bit of a corporate context, into the startup world when I'm working with clients or in organizations with those two interfaces. You know, and I'm curious for you, specifically, how the entrepreneurial mindset and creative problem solving skills have influenced your work on consumer and business products.

28:04

I would say that for me, and that's probably why I keep bouncing back between smaller companies and larger ones, I think, at smaller companies are really like working at a high pace, and being able to influence multiple areas, I would say, whereas at larger companies, I enjoy the structure and stability, I would say in established processes, but only to a degree. Right? So the perfect place is somewhere in the middle, I guess. So what I usually try to do is to bring the best of both worlds together, right? So if you work at a very young startup, I think it's it's good to bring some processes into place, you know, I don't want to, I want to say I'm the biggest fan of processes. But I think it's very helpful for people to know, hey, this is how we do it. And here's why we do it this way. Because otherwise, you will probably lose a lot of time on trying to find out how to do things, who to approach who to talk to, who has what kind of decision making power and all these kinds of things but if you have a clear defined process, even if it's very simple, like two steps to this, then that's great. So then this knowledge is hopefully documented and people can follow it easily and we can of course adapted over time. Whereas then at large organizations, I find the person is way overblown, you have to involve so many departments blah, blah, blah, that we think becomes very slow. So I guess again, here you want to find the sweet spot I guess. But I think for me often the the best things coming together are about that accountability and responsibility, you know that it's there. When it's clear, who is the decision maker for what area or product or feature, or what have you, having clear processes in place, and being able to build the teams in a way that they can work as independently as possible. You know, I think this probably missing some things. But I think these three are the core of what I think makes a team or rather an organization, successful. Looking back,

Matt  30:32

you know, one of the things that you've done throughout your career is advised organizations, either internally or certainly clients externally, on how to best approach things like design, and product development. And I'm curious, if you look back at that extensive experience you have, what are some of the common pitfalls, some of the common mistakes that you see get made by organizations?

30:56

Oh, that's a good one. I think it either goes one way or exactly the other one way being, I find often design is very undervalued in the sense of, oh, who needs it, I'm just gonna build it and design can make it pretty in the end. Was this often I see people overthinking it, you know, it's like, oh, we have to do all these kinds of things, while you're being in a startup kind of phase, right? So you're, you're overdoing it, you're involving too many people, you're spending too much time on things, where you could question I guess, if a user would even notice the difference. So again, he I think it's also about the sweet spot. Right? So identifying, okay, what are we actually building? How much? And I think it's important that for design that we that designers that we designers think much more in the business kind of way to understand okay, what what is the business we are in? What what is the main the business is placed in? And how do we basically make use of the information and the budget and the time we have to build the best product we can write? And what are battles from, from a design point of view, we should be fighting, knows, like trying to make things better. Whereas in other areas we have, you should put the business over the design and say, we know it's not perfect, but we can live with it. Or people might not even notice it? What, what's the importance of this feature of this little thing at this point in time, really. So getting these things, right, I think is is one of the most important things. And I would say you're also one of the differences between startups and large organizations is the amount of time and especially budget you can spend on doing these kinds of things, right? I mean, again, think about a startup. If you're a team of, I don't know, 10 people, and you have one designer there and that designer has to go out, talk to people, do the research, you know, prepare the findings, then also use this information to create designs, create the assets, and the end work together with engineering and make sure that everything gets shipped in quality, you know that that poor person, of course, is stretched very thinly, right. So that person has to make sure that they focus on the most important areas, and I cannot give like a blanket statement that should be this area. Because it really depends, I don't think there's a copy and paste approach where you can say, oh, you should expect it with this, this will work always that that is not the case. That's I guess, also, one of the favorite things of designers is it depends. Whereas in large organizations, you ask them, you often have the budget and the manpower and the people to actually, you know, look into many of the steps of the design process, you know, like from research over the definition phase over the design and shipping phase and all the way to the very end to actually have dedicated people there who are really good at what they do in their respective areas, like research, like copywriting, you know, like, user interface design, interaction design, and like even like QA at the end, from design point of view, if all these things now are being shipped in quality, that you're that you can bring all these brilliant people together to ship something in with extra ordinary quality. But beyond that, I think one of the key ingredients, I would say in the long term to make a company more successful would be to enable other people in the company to think a little bit more like a designer, in the sense of thinking about the details in the sense of taking a step back while developing something to see the bigger picture to see like, like, like this, this term, holistic customer journey, okay. Like where's the user? In this moment, what have they done before? What will they do next? Does it make sense how we design this moment in time this feature for them, you know, will they understand it? Will they be able to properly go through the flow. And I think if more people in companies would try to think from this experience point of view, they don't have to be designers, but they have to be conscious, I would say about these kinds of things. I think the easier it would be for everybody in the end to ship products in, in better quality with better experiences, simply because all eyes as part of the developing process will have this experience mindset, you know, and they will identify things and purposely do things even only a little bit better, you know, but they will and I think this will make a big difference. Okay, thank

Matt  35:52

you so much for your time today. I knew I would enjoy this conversation. I'm glad that I did. It's always great to hear another perspective, one such as diverse as yours. Thanks so much for coming on. Today. I'm looking forward to continuing this chat.

36:04

Thanks so much for having me man was a pleasure being on your show.

Matt  36:15

Until HR is a digital transformation consultancy, working at the intersection of strategy, technology, and people operations, we partner with organizations private equity and venture capital firms to accelerate value creation, and identify the organization's highest leverage initiatives. And this can take place in many forms, from strategic planning and alignment to technology procurement, implementation and integration, along with organizational design, process reengineering, and change management. With our proven track record of working with complex high growth organizations, we provide a lens that goes beyond the balance sheet, increasing enterprise readiness, resilience, and value. For more information, check us out at bento hr.com