How Strategic Workforce Planning Informs Talent Strategy - Mikael Wornoo

As the Founder & the Chief Operating Officer at techwolf.ai, Mikaël Wornoo has a background in Computer Science Engineering and is passionate about all things AI in HR.

In this episode, Mikael and I discuss the renewed emphasis on strategic workforce planning, where it’s having the largest impact, and why its principles are essential in designing the hybrid workforces of today.

We also strike a more personal note; discussing our shared love of biohacking, with a particular focus on the importance of sleep. I share my recent challenges with chronic fatigue, and the steps I’m taking to resolve them in service to having a greater impact. 

It was an awesome chat. I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did.

Mikaël Wornoo

Mikaël Wornoo is a Founder & the Chief Product Officer at techwolf.ai. He has a background in Computer Science Engineering and passionate about all things AI in HR.

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Thinking Inside the Box

Constraints drive innovation. Each week we’ll tackle the most complex issues related to work & culture.

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Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Matt: [00:00:00] Constraints drive innovation 

Guest 1: [00:00:04] technology to essentially look at the gap between a worker and [00:00:10] a unit of work doesn't even need to be a job is where I think the, the biggest value is at the moment, because it's really hard, especially without any background knowledge. To [00:00:20] get an idea of what

[00:00:30] Matt: [00:00:35] Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of thinking inside the box. The [00:00:40] show where each week we discuss the most complex issues related to work and culture. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at bento, hr.com [00:00:50] and now for select episodes in virtual reality, each Thursday evening at 6:00 PM Pacific standard time in Altspace VR or wherever you find your favorite [00:01:00] podcasts by searching, thinking inside the box.

In today's episode, I chat with Michael Warren knew the founder and chief product officer at tech Wolf, a [00:01:10] machine learning based startup in Belgium and tech Wolf uses AI to connect people, jobs, and education based on their skills and their [00:01:20] product helps large enterprises proactively manage strategic workforce planning needs.

So it's a particularly interesting topic now, given the shifting nature of. Skills [00:01:30] and competencies and organizations, but also the broader workforce. And as geography becomes less of a determining factor for success, the idea of making more decisions [00:01:40] based on strategic workforce planning skills and competencies, it just makes so much sense.

Uh, and we had a great conversation. We talked about strategic [00:01:50] workforce planning. What is that even? And why is it important for organizations to look at? We talked about analytics in general, some of the trends, some of the common challenges, Michael searing [00:02:00] from his clients and what competencies are now in highest demand in a post COVID world.

And we closed the episode with a bit of a unique segment. I [00:02:10] don't normally talk about my personal issues, but of late. I've been working through a lot of biohacking initiatives and strategies attempting to, if you [00:02:20] will hack my own success. As an entrepreneur and we spend the last 15 or so minutes talking about sleep and the importance of sleep and some of the lessons I've been able to pick up over the [00:02:30] proceeding months around how to optimize your sleep for performance.

It's an interesting segment. So I'll be curious if you're interested in hearing more content like that. Leave your [00:02:40] comments in the comments section, wherever you find your hair podcasts, or reach out to me directly. I've been asked in the past to share information. About my approach to entrepreneurship, my approach [00:02:50] to leadership and some of the habits and behaviors and tactics that I use to optimize performance.

And I'm happy to do more of that in the future. It was interest, but without further ado, let's get back [00:03:00] to Michael  from tech Wolf. Michael, how are you? My friend. 

Guest 1: [00:03:06] I'm very good. Thank you for 

Matt: [00:03:07] having me. Yeah, no thanks. Thanks for [00:03:10] stopping by. I'm doing really well. Thanks for asking. It's um, it's a beautiful day here in Vancouver, Canada, and a perfect day for a great conversation.

And I've been looking forward to this chat now for some weeks [00:03:20] we connected. Oh, I think he was even before the Christmas holiday break. And, um, you know, learning a bit about you and tech Wolf. I've been really excited about the conversation, but before I [00:03:30] jump into that, Let's learn a bit more about Michael, that kind of the man behind tech Wolf.

Tell us a bit about yourself, your journey, and what 

brought 

Guest 1: [00:03:36] you to today. All right, definitely. So I'm Michael I'm [00:03:40] based in Belgium. My, uh, my mom was born here. Um, my dad's from Togo. That's a pretty small country and, uh, yeah. West Africa at the moment I live in Ghana, I went to uni [00:03:50] here and a lot of people stick around for a while.

After getting their degree. There's a vibrant startup ecosystem here. Lots of cool companies and even one of Belgium's few unicorns is [00:04:00] based in Ghana. So, uh, there's that, uh, myself, I have a background in computer science engineering. Specialization in AI machine learning and natural language processing.

I met [00:04:10] my best friends here while they needed a degree, started the company with them while studying and our chief product, that type of, uh, changing the world with, uh, [00:04:20] workforce planning. 

Matt: [00:04:20] And it couldn't be better time to be talking about, um, AI enabled workforce planning. I mean, the workforce has gone through a monumental shift.

Tell me a bit about, [00:04:30] for those who may not be familiar with the term, what is strategic workforce planning? Yeah. Great 

Guest 1: [00:04:34] question. So I'm just going to quote someone, uh, that actually wrote a book about this. So Aaron Ross [00:04:40] defines strategic workforce planning as a framework for analyzing both your current and desire, future workforce stakes.

And I think. Thinking about it. [00:04:50] Like a frameworks really make sense. What that does is just supporting the framework with artificial intelligence, but strategic workforce and itself is about making sure, you know, your talent supply. [00:05:00] You can use down demand to contextualize that information. You can detect skill gaps and you use information for workforce decision support.

And that's how I like to define that strategic 

Matt: [00:05:09] work. [00:05:10] It's a discipline that's been around a lot longer than some people might think. I remember my experience of workforce planning goes back almost 10 years now, to be honest and. It actually started for those who don't [00:05:20] know, I was a business executive with Walmart for a number of years in HR.

And, um, you know, obviously an organization that has a large employee base. I think at the time when I [00:05:30] worked there, the worldwide employee base was 2 million, um, in Canada were on base. The workforce was 96,000 employees. So as you can appreciate workforce planning was a [00:05:40] significant indicator of success.

And. We use the, in a very I'll characterize it as utilitarian. I mean, in retail, it's a high turnover [00:05:50] industry. Um, there is, you know, in lot of cases, 30, 40% annualized turnover in some cases, much higher. And the, the necessity to have the right [00:06:00] resources in the right place at the right time. Is absolutely essential to be able to, uh, ensure that you can meet the customer expectations, that you can complete all your business operations activities, [00:06:10] um, and also to do so with the degree of cost certainty.

And I think it's that intersection of, if you will, the customer expectation business efficiencies [00:06:20] and cost containment, that is really a sweet spot for workforce planning. We took a very utilitarian approach to it, but I also know that organizations are, they look at strategic [00:06:30] workforce planning from a talent.

Competency perspective. So I think about Michael organizations like yours that are very tech focused, you want to make sure you have the right skillsets [00:06:40] in the organization at the right time to be able to pair them, to demand, to pair them to potential growth in the organization. So it's really about.

Aligning the [00:06:50] workforce, both in terms of numbers, but also skills and abilities for future demand. 

Guest 1: [00:06:55] Yeah, exactly. And we see that skill-based clinic, workforce planning is [00:07:00] just gaining and relevant and just being strategic in front of workforce planning does the same thing. So we're really thinking about what you need to be successful in the future.

For example, we [00:07:10] have a lot of customers in Talco Alquist transforming to just becoming a technology provider. Uh, so. Making sure you have the right skills to be successful [00:07:20] in that transformation. And thinking about that long-term is what, uh, what strategic workforce planning is all about. 

Matt: [00:07:26] Exactly. Right.

And I'll add one more wrinkles. So just so we can level set with our audience [00:07:30] here around what this is, the other wrinkle of workforce planning is once you identify the need. So once you have a situation in place where. We identify that your [00:07:40] organization needs this particular skillset and this particular volume of number of people in this skillset.

Um, the next decision that organizations have to make is how are you gonna acquire that skillset? [00:07:50] Um, and that's where from an HR perspective, we would play a more active role to determine in those three categories, there's, there's building the talent, which means internal development, succession [00:08:00] investing in the internal resources in your organization.

So they can take on other opportunities. There's boring, which is exactly what it sounds like. Usually you're bringing people in on [00:08:10] short-term engagements, consultants, gig workers, um, people on temporary secondments. Or there's buying, which is straight up recruitment. So if you don't have [00:08:20] the right skill set, let's say you are an organization that is really focusing in on, let's say cybersecurity, for example.

Um, and that's a skill that's increasingly in demand and organizations today. But as, [00:08:30] as often scarce in the market, you may have to go and find that talent outside the four walls of your organization. So you may have to go out and buy. Um, and the reason that we segment into those [00:08:40] three categories is generally speaking, not all cases, but generally speaking, buying.

Is the most expensive of the three options. It's usually more costly to go to the open [00:08:50] market and find talent is you're paying a premium. Whereas if you develop talent from within. Yes, there is an investment to grow talent, but usually, um, you see that [00:09:00] their, their wage rates have been depressed because as the market rate for roles increases, the internal rate of wage growth is usually a slower in most markets in most industries.

Um, [00:09:10] so modest investments in internal resources often deliver significant financial benefits over the longterm, especially as you think about workforce planning, but Michael, what excites me about your [00:09:20] solution is that when we used to do this work. It was Excel spreadsheets and point your finger in the wind and see which way the direction was blowing in terms of [00:09:30] what was happening, who was going to potentially retire, where you, where do we see new, um, new locations opening up in terms of growth?

Where do we see turnover opportunities? But it was [00:09:40] very much, you know, looking back. To look forward looking at previous trends to project, future trends and with Excel spreadsheets. Uh, I am so [00:09:50] confident and so excited to hear about tech role taking things to the next level of sophistication. Tell me a bit about how you S have hacked that.

And, and what, you know, what unique value [00:10:00] prop tech Wolf brings to this conversation? 

Guest 1: [00:10:01] Yes. So going back to the framework we were talking about earlier, there's four components and in each of those four components, we're actually using [00:10:10] technology to step away from the Excel spreadsheets, as you said. So I think one of the crucial aspects of strategic workforce planning is being able to [00:10:20] know what your talent supply.

So essentially having a skill in Ventura. And here's where a lot of vendors are coming up with skill clouds. We see talent [00:10:30] marketplaces doing skill inference, and so on and so forth. But it goes beyond that you have multiple HR systems that are generating lots of data about employees, and that data can [00:10:40] actually be used to predict skills.

So. And the, the talent supply, uh, parts, the workforce planning, you can use AI, natural language processing [00:10:50] to detect skills of employees and use that information to get a global view of what is present inside the walls of your organization. Then on the talent [00:11:00] demand part, you see that you can use labor market intelligence to make strategic sourcing decisions, to see where talent is in high demand and low demand, [00:11:10] or it might make sense to open up a new office.

So and so forth. The third component is in detecting skill gaps, and that's where it gets really tricky. We see a lot of [00:11:20] learning experience providers. Researching this players like degreed are investing heavily and just being able to detect skill gaps on individual levels, but using [00:11:30] technology to essentially look at the gap between a worker and a unit of work doesn't even need to be a job is where I think the, the big [00:11:40] value is at the moment, because it's really hard, especially without any background knowledge.

To get an idea of what the actual gap is. And if you bring those treats together, you [00:11:50] can start to think about workforce decision support, and that's then again, should I buy, build or borrow talent and actually to, uh, to go on [00:12:00] about that, I think burning bless, released a report. Few months ago about salary premiums, certain skill apps.

So if you look at [00:12:10] salary premium, so skills you might possess where the market both play a premium for using that information and skill adjacencies. [00:12:20] So skills that might be in the vicinity of your own skillset, you can really start to think strategically about whether it would make sense to buy. Built at talent [00:12:30] and you can even attach a dollar value to it.

So in a nutshell, that's where technology comes in with a strategic workforce planning. 

Matt: [00:12:36] That's really great. Exciting, and I can definitely hear [00:12:40] the incremental value in terms of the, of the detect Wolf offering, if you will. But I think for those folks that may still be thinking through, like, how does this apply in my [00:12:50] organization?

You know, I, I think about the majority of business executives that I'm speaking with today, they're shell shocked from 2020. I mean, we didn't expect, I mean, it goes without saying we didn't expect what we had [00:13:00] in store for 2020 in a number of different realms. Most organizations have gone through forced digital transformation over the course of the last 12 months.

And. [00:13:10] They're still trying to figure out how they're going to show up differently in 2021 and going forward. And that a lot of that comes back to the core identity of the [00:13:20] business, the core strategy, the customer value proposition. And then we get into the workforce composition, which is where tech Wolf really shines.

I'm curious from your perspective, what are some [00:13:30] of the use cases or what are some of the challenges that you're hearing from clients as you speak to them in the 

Guest 1: [00:13:34] market? Yeah. One is obviously just knowing the skills of the workforce [00:13:40] now with COVID it has become even harder to know what talent is present inside your walls.

So that's, um, let's say a cluster of challenges. Uh, we see, and that is [00:13:50] just, uh, really tangible cases like redeploying the workforce. We see shifting workloads, you might get into operational workforce planning, but still thinking about how workloads [00:14:00] shift and how your workforce, your current workforce makeup.

Uh, is reflected in that is one of the main use cases that we're tackling right now. And then of course, looking at the longer [00:14:10] term or the medium term to see how 

Matt: [00:14:11] that changes over time. That makes a lot of sense. And it makes a lot of sense for a number of reasons. But I'm curious though, as we, as we talk about.

The talent and the [00:14:20] composition of talent of the competency is one term you mentioned earlier that I want to just explore a little more, is this idea of talent, adjacencies and competency adjacencies? Can you speak a bit more about what that [00:14:30] means in the context of organizations and why that might be?

Yeah, 

Guest 1: [00:14:32] definitely. So I think Gardner first came up with the term skills adjacencies and it's something that almost comes up [00:14:40] naturally when you start thinking about skills. So for example, if you would look at the skills a marketeer would have, or a content marketer would have. There's things like copywriting, digital [00:14:50] marketing, and so on and so forth.

And then it's really interesting to start thinking about the skills that are adjacent to copywriting, like creative writing, uh, like creating like 40 [00:15:00] contents copy and so on and so forth. So the concept of skills adjacencies is actually using AI. To model those relationships and then using [00:15:10] that to detect possible hops that might not be identified by a human or that might not necessarily be that straightforward.

But if you have a [00:15:20] model looking at how skills relate to one another and actually knowing. What the transferable parts of skills are. Then you can look at really interesting [00:15:30] parts, redeployment parts re-skilling parts within the 

Matt: [00:15:32] organization. I assume that has, that takes on a greater significance today where the talent requirements, what [00:15:40] we look for in organizations and their colleagues has also shifted.

So, you know, tech will see utility in this application in a pre COVID world would have been [00:15:50] very compelling. I assume it's even more compelling today where I think about the evolution Michael of workforces. And I think about as an HR executive, what are some of the [00:16:00] challenges I need to be thinking through?

And there's three questions that I've been asking myself a lot. You know, I spend a lot of time thinking through. What are challenges and organizations [00:16:10] know in part, because it's important for me as an entrepreneur, to understand from a consultancy perspective, what are some of the challenges that are being faced by organizations that help so that we can meet, respond and meet those [00:16:20] challenges.

And if I was a business executive today, I'd be asking myself questions, like, how do you build and maintain came culture in the context of a hybrid workplace? That's [00:16:30] a question I'd be asking myself a lot because previously we relied a lot on. Of while characterize as informal methods of connection. So that, that [00:16:40] proverbial water cooler that let's meet in the coffee line during our break let's have drinks after work.

Like these were areas that we could use to, uh, yes, connect and, [00:16:50] and, and certainly socialize. But a lot of cases business was moved forward. Um, in these informal conversations, I think about the meetings before the meetings and the meetings after the meetings in the fortune [00:17:00] 1000 companies that I've worked in and.

Those interactions were so critical in order to build relationships, build trust, and ultimately build influence in order to [00:17:10] move decisions forward. Now that we're in a hybrid workforce where most people are working from home or working off site. And we're moving into a, a [00:17:20] reality that I believe is going to be highlighted by the, by the fact that there will be this back and forth.

People will have more flexibility to choose [00:17:30] when they work from home. When they work from the office, that the organizations will allow for more flexibility by dictating specific meetings or business activities that needed to be [00:17:40] conducted. At the office, but we'll in a lot of cases allow for greater flexibility.

And I think about the skills necessary for both individual [00:17:50] contributors, but also leaders on how to operate and how to lead people in the context of now remote work. I know far too many business executives that have never managed a [00:18:00] remote team, which is. When you think about it startling, but it's, it's a, it's a fact of the matter that a lot of organizations pre COVID, you know, working from home was an exception.

It was an accommodation that [00:18:10] was made. Um, it wasn't a, a standard business practice. And I think about the skills necessary to thrive in those environments. The, the, the competencies that are successful and what looks like [00:18:20] success has to shift going forward. So I'm curious. As you're talking to clients, are you hearing similar themes?

Are you hearing people talk about how even within the four walls of an organization [00:18:30] that the desirable competencies have shifted over the course of the last 12 months? Yeah, 

Guest 1: [00:18:33] definitely. And even in the, in the context of our own organization, we see that. Yeah. Just like you [00:18:40] said, building and maintaining culture in this hybrid context is, is really hard.

Uh, so what we've done is we just. I asked our coworkers to come up with ideas to [00:18:50] really build this culture, this culture up in a, in a hybrid world. And that has been working really well, but I think we're quite fortunate as the, the amount [00:19:00] of employees is still limited. We're 20 people right now. We see that the organizations are customers with tens of thousands of employees are really struggling.

[00:19:10] To, to make sure that everybody stays onboard. And then on your second point, the skills, individual contributors and leaders need for leading people in a remote workforce are completely [00:19:20] different than the skills they needed. Let's say a year ago. Um, I'm curious, what, what do you think those skills are?

Cool? 

Matt: [00:19:27] I mean, that's a, it's a, it's a big question. And I think it largely [00:19:30] depends on the organization, which you operate and the environment in which you operate. But I think a couple of things that to me are increasingly important is. Delegation, [00:19:40] as simple as that sounds a lot of leaders and a lot of employees relied on the fact that you had a more frequent interaction [00:19:50] informally with the employee.

Um, so therefore the idea of having structured weekly meetings. Was probably a practice that a lot of leaders have had to adapt. If they're now working with remote teams, like you have a weekly check-in [00:20:00] with your team member and it's structured and it's very focused on how are you doing as an individual, but what are you working on and how can I help?

And that being a very structured process for meetings, I think delegation is something that people had [00:20:10] to learn. Uh, I think about. Resilience, Michael. I mean, if it's 12 months, I've taught us anything it's that we don't have as much control as we thought we might. [00:20:20] And that we need to be resilient both as individuals and leaders in order to have success going forward.

So I think principles of resilience, I think principles of adaptability, the ability to [00:20:30] shift. Your function to shift your responsibilities, to shift the way that you think about problems. Um, I think that becomes increasingly important. I think those are three examples that I [00:20:40] would would say have taken on greater importance and.

One thing I want to be clear about is the exciting thing and maybe exciting isn't the right word. But I guess for me, I'm excited because [00:20:50] for HR professionals, people like yourself, Michael, they've been working with business executives for quite some time. These are, these are attributes. These are competencies.

These are changes that we've been evangelizing for [00:21:00] years. So none of this is a surprise. I always envisioned a world where people would work from home more frequently. I didn't think it would happen this quickly. So. There's a level of [00:21:10] comfort about knowing that there are solutions that are available.

There are many organizations that think about base camp that they're entirely a remote organization, and they have been for years that have been able to [00:21:20] successfully create and nurture and grow their culture in a totally remote environment. And they have their own unique ways of doing that. And I think as we go through this journey, [00:21:30] organizations will develop their own unique spin on a remote or hybrid work model.

Uh, but there is this interim period where. You know what you know, and there's a bit of [00:21:40] fear of the unknown when you haven't experienced it. So I take comfort in knowing that there are examples out there, but there's very much, the fear is real around the present circumstances [00:21:50] and in shifting to this new reality.

So I think those three competencies to me are things I think about a lot and I wonder. You know, [00:22:00] as we get deeper into this space, if we are really going to embrace a true knowledge economy, where the technical skills that we bring to the table [00:22:10] are out shined by the competencies around working within teams, remotely, building relationships, remotely resilience, you know, adaptability, [00:22:20] emotional intelligence things I've been talking about.

I think we're getting to a place where those suddenly take on greater boards. It's less about what, you know, In, in the terms of technical knowledge and more about how you [00:22:30] work within those environments. 

Guest 1: [00:22:31] Definitely. But it's, I think remote culture is a reflection, a reflection of your existing culture, but still there are subtle [00:22:40] differences, uh, when interacting with people, uh, over a video, if you haven't done it before.

And you, you still have to learn a thing or two. So we had someone talk to us [00:22:50] about the way we portrayed it. And, uh, in, in video conversations and just body language in a way, let's say at this point, it's almost become a [00:23:00] meme in our company, but we started doing an actual thumbs up instead of having a faceless expression or a light nod.

Uh, when something is good. And [00:23:10] when we see something that we actually approved, because it's really hard to read the room, as they say, when you're just in a remote context. And that sends a really, I'm almost proud of the [00:23:20] culture. We were starting to develop the remotes or hybrid at culture where we're starting to develop, but it is a reflection of your existing culture.

So of course, [00:23:30] Not everything is transferable, but if the people that are in your culture are committed to building a great organization, and I'm pretty confident [00:23:40] that the hybrid culture might even be better than, uh, than the culture that existed before.

Matt: [00:23:49] Hey everyone, [00:23:50] it's Matt here. I hope you're enjoying the show before we continue. I wanted to give a quick shout out to one of our sponsors, Benji, the future of work. Is today [00:24:00] and Matt Parsons and the team at Benji have figured out a really cool hands-on learning solution that you need to be considering as you [00:24:10] transition your organizational learning and team building and engagement online.

Now I spend several hours a day myself on video platforms. So whether [00:24:20] it's zoom or Skype or go to meeting, they're great. They allow me to interact with people and see them in all parts of the world, though. If you're like me, [00:24:30] once those calls go on a bit too long, I start to get a little bit. Distracted.

And it's not too long before I'm reaching for my smartphone or opening up another tab on my laptop [00:24:40] that doesn't happen with Benji. They have a catalog of interactive team exercises that makes it really easy for organizations and individual [00:24:50] consultants to develop engaging solutions at any scale. And I'll be honest, I've been so impressed with the tool myself, that we're actually looking at using Benji to [00:25:00] power our virtual workshops with client facing products.

So I'm actually working right now with Matt one-on-one to develop a journey mapping exercise. So we can take clients through the [00:25:10] employee experience and aluminate thousands of dollars and hours of inefficiencies that organizations tend to have in their onboarding and hiring [00:25:20] processes. It's a great tool.

And because you are a listener of the thinking inside the box podcast, you're going to get a special benefit as well. I've talked to Matt. He wants to [00:25:30] give as many people as possible access to this tool so they can make online learning more engaging. And you can do so as well by using the discount code bento 20.

So if you log on [00:25:40] to the Benji website, which is my benji.com and you're as impressed with that solution, as I am, then enter the code in Benji 20 and you'll receive [00:25:50] 20% off your purchase. And with that being said, we'll return back to regular programming. Leopard. I think so. And I think you've raised a couple [00:26:00] of really good points.

I think the first one is that you're right. If you have a, if you're starting from a good place with your culture, then you have a greater chance of success in this new reality [00:26:10] and you can build good culture. In a physical environment in a remote environment or in a hybrid environment. And you do so with some intentionality.

[00:26:20] So I think one thing that we all would agree is that it doesn't happen by accident, that it doesn't happen just by happenstance. It is something where people have put some thought [00:26:30] into creating one, a clear vision for success. A clear set of values and principles. And if you will practices that organizations will follow and then creating [00:26:40] space to allow people to express themselves within the broader context so that it can naturally and evolve as the company ebbs and flows.

And as people come and go, and as you grow and shrink, [00:26:50] and you can do that, but like any relationship, it requires nurturing and it requires care and requires intentionality and, um, and being thoughtful about, you know, how those things take [00:27:00] place. The. The shift to a hybrid culture. I agree with you. I think it's actually better aligned for the present circumstances that we find ourselves in [00:27:10] Michael.

We've had this chat, I think a couple of times before, which is, you know, the future of work was a, uh, an overplayed term before 2020. [00:27:20] And. It was overplayed because while I accepted the principles were important in that we were moving towards a new world, a new existence, a new way of [00:27:30] being, it was often simply talk and not a lot of action that there was no intent behind it.

It was [00:27:40] clickbait. Thought leadership that we would see. And I'm probably guilty of using the term myself more than I probably should have, but without action, it really just was a theory. It was a [00:27:50] concept, but it wasn't a concept that wasn't without its. That utility. I mean, we've new moved into a space now where we're essentially connected to each other persistently, you know, I'm [00:28:00] old enough to remember a time when we did not have mobile devices at work and you weren't persistently connected to your office where, you know, if you wanted to check your work emails, you had to go into the [00:28:10] office to check them where somebody had to call you at home.

They wanted to reach you. And that just wasn't a commonplace. And I grew up in an environment where that. But over time shifted where it was an [00:28:20] expectation where people would answer their phones on evenings and weekends where your vacation was. Yes, you got to be away from meetings in the office, but you still had to respond to urgent issues.

[00:28:30] And everyone's definition of urgent was different. And the rising rates of burnout are very real in a time where people haven't had necessarily the benefits of [00:28:40] being able to fully disconnect from a stressful work environment. And. The idea of insisting from an employer perspective that your employees be con you [00:28:50] know, available if you will, or connected 24 seven, but then having concerns when employees would ask for flexibility within the standard working hours to go for medical [00:29:00] appointments, or to cut out early, to see your child's music recital, it was an equitable, and it was becoming increasingly inequitable as the hours of [00:29:10] work.

Um, started to shift and as work and life became less about balance and more about how do you definitely integrate the two? I think the [00:29:20] hybrid model is a much better template for us to look at where at the end of the day, We need to move away from this model of [00:29:30] measuring inputs and presenteeism as measures of success.

If you're in the office for 10 hours a day, that doesn't make you more valuable than somebody who's in the [00:29:40] office for five hours a day. What matters is the outputs that each of you deliver in the context of your. Your roles, your responsibilities and your objectives. And it [00:29:50] doesn't matter the time of day that you work.

It doesn't matter where on the planet you work, as long as you can be connected. And as long as you can be contributing to that overall mission and the [00:30:00] hybrid principles that we're talking about, yes, it's technology plays a key, a key part of that, but the broader philosophy is that we're giving people the flexibility to be able [00:30:10] to adapt work within the context of their lives.

And I think that's increasingly important because spoiler alert, I don't see us regressing back to a place [00:30:20] where it becomes acceptable to work nine to five, put your phone in your drawer and not respond to emails until the following day. I don't see a place where [00:30:30] the expectations on leaders and employees is going to decrease.

If anything, it's going to increase, um, as organizations seek to recoup some of the lost opportunity in [00:30:40] 2020. So I think this recognition of hybrid. Is the right decision. It gives people greater flexibility to choose when they can contribute. Um, and as long as they do contribute that [00:30:50] ultimately should be the ultimate should be the measure of success.

Guest 1: [00:30:52] Yeah, definitely. And actually people not being in the office forces you to look at outputs or even just outcomes [00:31:00] and essentially every great leader should care about outcomes and you don't care. At the end of the day, how many hours were put in, you just care about the outcome, the business outcome that [00:31:10] has been achieved.

I'm a great fan of OTRs and essentially they detail outputs or outcomes. And that's how we, we run the business as well. [00:31:20] And if you can do that in two hours or in three hours, That's fine. And if you do that in eight or nine hours, that's fine as well. But we really look at the outcome for, uh, for every coworker at [00:31:30] tech booth and not just the presenters and as you, as you touched 

Matt: [00:31:33] upon.

And I think it just is a recognition of, again, present circumstances. We are now in a [00:31:40] time where even from a generational perspective, I know many people who. Are living in households with three generations where there may be caring for their parents and caring for [00:31:50] children, um, where people are having to be dual income households to be able to afford the cost of living.

So there is a lot of additional pressures on the [00:32:00] individual today. And then there was 50 years ago and. There's certainly greater flexibility, um, in terms of the technology to be able [00:32:10] to accommodate hybrid. But unfortunately until this most recent shift and this forced digital transformation, it only went one way.

And we, we, we [00:32:20] use the technology to assure the connectivity of the individual. In the context of their employment, but we didn't give them the same benefits to use the technology, to increase their [00:32:30] flexibility in the context of their employment. So I'm glad to see this shift. I'm excited about the potential.

And I agree with you. I think that ultimately, if you're looking at outputs and outcomes, [00:32:40] we should incentivize people to complete their work with a high degree of quality and to do so efficiently. And if that takes you less time than you should benefit from [00:32:50] that, and you should. Look at sharing that knowledge with your coworkers so that people can benefit from, you know, that expertise.

It's important that people have time [00:33:00] away from work. It's important that people look after their health and. One other thing that I'm hoping continues post pandemic is this renewed [00:33:10] or this invigorated, um, if you will expectation or importance being placed on. The [00:33:20] whole self and mental health and burnout, because those things are very real.

And, you know, Michael, one thing we've talked a lot about in our chats previously was, you know, the idea [00:33:30] of entrepreneurship and, you know, you, you run a business, I run a business, um, and. Entrepreneurship is as much about mastering yourself [00:33:40] and taking care of yourself because when you are a small business and when you are a growing business, the, the health of your business will [00:33:50] mirror the health of you.

They're interchangeable. And the ability of you as a leader and as an entrepreneur and as a founder is. [00:34:00] It's indelibly. It leaves an indelible Mark on the business, looking after yourself and looking after your health and looking after things like [00:34:10] sleep and nutrition and fitness are just so critically important.

So I'm, I'm glad to see that. For those of you and I who've been practicing this now for several [00:34:20] years that we've now seen more focus on this in the corporate context, because people will find a direct correlation between the habits that they undertake in their [00:34:30] personal lives and how it shows up. Yeah.

Guest 1: [00:34:32] 100%. And just to continue on your point about mental health, I think Andreessen Horowitz said that the ability to [00:34:40] manage your own psychology is the most important thing. Uh, as a founder, but, uh, apart from being a founder or not just managing your own mental health is I think one of the [00:34:50] most crucial skills an individual can possess, or at least you can learn.

Uh, I've been in, uh, into self reflection for the best, let's say 12 months. And that has [00:35:00] helped me. A lot. I used to be into journaling and then I learned to split up the journaling and self-reflection so journaling would be brain dumping, but self-reflection is really asking myself questions, [00:35:10] looking at what works and what doesn't work, and then using that information to just get a sense of calm, but also to improve for, for the next day.

So 

[00:35:20] Matt: [00:35:20] it's critical. It's absolutely critical. And in this hectic world that we're in. There's not a lot of time for organic [00:35:30] self-reflection because we don't have time. So there's no shortage of activities that we can put in front of self-reflection or mindfulness practices. So the fact that [00:35:40] you're intentionally creating space in your schedule for that, um, I think it was first off.

It's great. And I'm not surprised to hear that it's had dividends, you know, one PSA. I'll also add to the [00:35:50] pile. You know, I've been focusing a lot over the last several years on. On fatigue. And for me in particular, fatigue has been a real challenge. It's I S I started [00:36:00] recognizing my own challenges with fatigue about four years ago.

And I went through a number of different tactics and steps and hacks, [00:36:10] everything from changing my diet, countless times, buying weighted blankets, buying special lights, nutrition. Um, supplements, [00:36:20] blackout curtains, melatonin, all these different, you know, separately, all these different meal medications in an attempt to try and get [00:36:30] better sleep, really looking at sleep hygiene, my sleep environment, as a mechanism of trying to solve for what had been persistent.

Fatigue. I mean, uh, [00:36:40] you know, I've shared with you about before Michael. I haven't had a really good night's sleep in probably four years, which when you're an entrepreneur has a, a toll, it takes a [00:36:50] toll at day after day, you're getting up and you're more tired than you were the previous day. Of course, it affects everything from your mood to your energy levels, to your [00:37:00] motivation, to your sharpness, to your memory.

Um, it has effects on depression and anxiety. Um, and if it's persistent for long enough, it can have [00:37:10] serious effects on your longterm health, cardiovascular issues, strokes, um, dementia. I mean, all these connections between having really good sleep and, [00:37:20] you know, your overall health there's been. Thousands and thousands of studies about this.

Um, and I recently made a couple of other investments in my health around addressing sleep. [00:37:30] I bought an aura ring towards the end of 2020 from, for those aren't familiar or ring is, uh, is an activity and sleep tracker that is a ring and you put it on yourself and [00:37:40] of all the tools that I've tried. As far in the way, the most accurate tool in terms of measuring both the length and the quality of your sleep.

I used to have a sleep tracker on my, [00:37:50] my cell phone that was telling me every night that I was getting really good sleep and deep sleep, but I was like, that doesn't make sense. I'm getting up and I feel terrible, but the ring on and the first night I [00:38:00] put it on, um, it says, well, actually, you're not getting great sleep.

You're getting a lot of light's sleep, but you're not getting very deep sleep. And I went through finally kind of just hit a wall and said, I just [00:38:10] need to like surrender to this fatigue and just get in front of as many doctors as I possibly can. Um, come to find out that I've been now diagnosed with obstructive [00:38:20] sleep apnea and that all of the environmental changes that I had made, all the nutritional changes that have made all the lifestyle changes that I had made.

No, I don't drink alcohol. I don't [00:38:30] smoke and don't use drugs. I meditate for an hour a day. I have good practices in my life. All those things well, positive contributors to sleep. Ultimately weren't enough [00:38:40] to overcome a very real physiological challenge that I have where the muscles in the back of my throat, when I fall asleep.

They relax and [00:38:50] air doesn't get actually get down my, um, my windpipe. And as a consequence of that, I ended up suffocating multiple times while I'm asleep and I'm not [00:39:00] conscious. I don't, I it's a subconscious level, but I'm suffocating. And when I suffocate your mind wakes you to a new level of alertness to tighten those muscles.

So air gets [00:39:10] back down, you fall back asleep again, the muscles relax. Blocked airway you suffocate. And the latest test that I did, I was losing [00:39:20] breath about 30 times an hour, which meant that persistently over the course of my sleep schedule, I would be suffocating in my sleep hundreds of times over the course of the [00:39:30] night.

And it's no wonder that I wasn't, um, getting restful sleep. My body was running a marathon. In a subconscious state. In addition to me spending all of my [00:39:40] time throughout my day, you know, grinding away as an entrepreneur and exercising and doing all the things that I would do. So my kind of my PSA today, and I don't normally do this.

My PSA for those listening is [00:39:50] if you are having challenges with your sleep, if you have tried innumerable number of lifestyle and nutritional and environmental changes, and you still find yourself getting up [00:40:00] every day. Exhausted. You may want to go see a doctor and look at some very common ailments that affect us things like anemia, things like sleep apnea.

[00:40:10] There are very real conditions that can be contributing to your health. And as I move out of this phase of my life, I'm super excited about the potential, because I think about. [00:40:20] How much I was able to accomplish individually in spite of some of those challenges. And as I go forward to know that I'm going to get more restful sleep and then I'm going to be able to feel [00:40:30] recharged and refreshed when I get up in the morning on a more consistent basis.

Um, it just to me, gives me a lot of optimism about the future. 

Guest 1: [00:40:37] Yeah, I can, I can only imagine what you'll [00:40:40] accomplish when you, uh, start sleeping better, uh, better again, but you, you do touch upon an interesting point about tracking. Uh, we track in a business context all the time. We track [00:40:50] our goals. Um, but.

When we, when we look at our personal lives, I think that that often gets forgotten and things like the, the ordering are, are great. Just to see [00:41:00] actually get it at face value. W w what's happening with your body? How would you feel? And then start making improvements. So for me, I was sleeping [00:41:10] well, not that great as well.

Uh, I had a lot of stress. I tried a number of things. I bought a weighted blanket myself. Uh, but then by, by [00:41:20] systematically, Looking at things and reviewing them and experimenting with certain sleep records and the different, a lot of different sleep trackers. I found some root [00:41:30] causes and one of those causes was just drinking too much caffeine.

And another one was some things that I was intolerant to, uh, [00:41:40] but figuring out what doesn't work for you and then making those improvements. Uh, that that has had an enormous impact on my life. And I can tell you, once you start sleeping [00:41:50] better again, that will probably have an amazing impact. 

Matt: [00:41:53] Warren, the people in my life closest to me because, uh, I have a reputation for being passionate and [00:42:00] intense and high energy, and I've told them all that I have had a sleep disorder and they're going, okay, this is going to be a lot.

So I'm going to have to [00:42:10] focus on a new challenge, which is putting a lid on the energy going forward. Um, I'm excited to be able to face that challenge head on. Um, that seems like [00:42:20] a lot more fun of a challenge to try and face than having to, to will myself into a degree of motivation. Again, Michael raised a great point.

I think that. You know, [00:42:30] we, we oftentimes invest a lot in things that are important, but there's nothing as important as your health. [00:42:40] And it goes back to how you show up in this world and whether you are, if you think about yourself in the context of being in the workplace as a leader, as an individual contributor, as [00:42:50] a parent, as a friend, as a partner, And just for yourself, um, the ability to, to spend time and if necessary, spend resources to take care of [00:43:00] yourself.

I don't think there's been a better example of the critical importance of that in 2020. And you mentioned, you know, the importance of. Entrepreneurs, [00:43:10] you know, being able to manage their own psychology. I couldn't agree with you more. I would, I would expand that to the broader society we're living in a time that has never been more [00:43:20] complex that has never stressed the human mind as much as it is today.

Our minds were not configured to handle this much information. This, these many inputs. [00:43:30] This kind of stress. Um, so it's not a, it's not a coincidence that we see rising rates of burnout that we see challenges in broader society. Um, and especially when you layer on other [00:43:40] complexities, like a global pandemic and the isolation that, and the economic challenges and the social unrest that STEM from all those items.

Um, it's no wonder that people are going through a difficult time [00:43:50] and investments that you make in yourself. We'll pay you back in all areas of your life. And we are only on this planet for a finite period of time. [00:44:00] You want to enjoy that time as much as possible, but if you have a brick tied around one of your legs and you're dragging that through the rest of your life, it's not a fun existence.

[00:44:10] And I'd like you, Michael, I'm obsessed with data and tracking, and it's easy. You start to convince yourself. You start to normalize [00:44:20] poor health, poor habits or behaviors, poor relationships when they endure for a period of time, but items like the aura ring, you know, if you have the benefit [00:44:30] of, well, I've done a bunch of diagnostic tests on like blood work and, you know, things of that nature that can give you scientific evidence that points to how you were actually performing [00:44:40] physiologically and functionally, it only can give you information that will aluminate.

If there are challenges that they're not challenges. And I'll tell you, Michael, of all the [00:44:50] challenges that I've faced in managing my fatigue. Um, and there were many, uh, there were days where I had to get up and show up for a sales pitch or deliver a keynote [00:45:00] address in front of thousands of people, or even show up for a podcast like this and just not be into it, but have to, will myself into a degree of.

[00:45:10] Excitement and enthusiasm that that was difficult. The hardest part was the self-talk and the, the [00:45:20] not knowing. So the, the not having the clarity as to what it was, my mind would naturally go to a place where I was the problem. [00:45:30] It was my lifestyle. It was my habits. It was my failings as an individual, as an entrepreneur, as a leader.

And that's the reason why I couldn't [00:45:40] overcome these challenges and, you know, to have a diagnosis that points to something that is physiological while in some ways not great. [00:45:50] In other ways. Fantastic, because it relieves a significant amount of burden off of me as an individual to say, no, it's not about you.

It's about this other challenge that [00:46:00] you can now tackle. And there are a lot of people who are looking at themselves in the mirror every single day as business leaders and as parents and as entrepreneurs and as friends and as partners. [00:46:10] And they may not feel like they're measuring up and I would encourage you that.

If that's something that you experienced on a consistent basis to look at, you know, getting yourself in [00:46:20] front of the right kind of people, the right kind of practitioners, the right kind of tests and measures because it may not be your failing. It likely isn't, it's likely something that's [00:46:30] extraneous to you and identifying that and solving that could be an in cases.

If it's present will be a significant benefit in your life. 

Guest 1: [00:46:38] Definitely. I think people [00:46:40] still underestimate the effects of sleep or the lack of sleep. And I think we started giving a new joiners attack [00:46:50] off the book, why we sleep by Matthew Walker, because we know for ourselves what a crucial difference it makes.

If you're well rested. You get into less arguments, you [00:47:00] are sharper, you're less irritated and so on. So we give it as part of the onboarding package and one of the co-founders here and it's actually so adamant that [00:47:10] everybody actually reads it as well, because we've seen the impact that it has enough, just the awareness of, of.

How bad you actually perform. Uh, when you, when you sleep too [00:47:20] little, you might be caffeinated up, but then still sleep is so crucial. And if people feel themselves bad or depressed and they feel like they [00:47:30] can't get out of the bed, I feel like they aren't motivated. They might not need to look much further than, than getting more or 

Matt: [00:47:37] better.

We, we can do a whole episode of sound sleep [00:47:40] because it's, you're, you're absolutely right. And there are layers. To this challenge, but if you're living in a life where you're oscillating between fatigue and [00:47:50] caffeination. It's not a good habit to get into. And I was there. My Colombian for years, I would use two, three Americanas in the morning to get myself into a state of [00:48:00] somewhat semi readiness.

But of course, caffeine has short term benefits, just like sugar. And on the other side of that high, you actually sink deeper than where you started [00:48:10] to say nothing of the dehydration and the other challenges. Hey, I enjoy a cup of coffee, like the next person, but it's not the solution to a. To a long standing problem, um, [00:48:20] everything in moderation and you're right, when it comes to sleep, it affects everything to do with your cognition, from your memory, to your irritability, to your [00:48:30] concentration, to your creativity, to your interpersonal skills, we can go on and on and on about the second and third degree effects of that.

And yes, you may be able to perform for [00:48:40] short periods of time and, and have some success in very small integrals. But if you're consistently. Not getting the right kind of sleep. It [00:48:50] will have declining returns over time. And I can speak from personal exact example in personal experience, um, that at some point you will hit a wall.

Um, we [00:49:00] call it burnout. We call it fatigue. We call it depression. We call it adrenal failures, whatever you want to call it. But if you, your body can only take so [00:49:10] much and either you're going to have to reduce the amount of inputs. Or you're going to have to expect less outputs if you're not going to address the problem.

So, um, you know, Bravo for you guys [00:49:20] to recognize the critical importance of sleep. I'm at a stage now, Michael, where, you know, new employees that join our organization, get two things from us. They're going to get an aura ring. And then you've got a virtual [00:49:30] reality headset because like the it's an investment financially.

That will pay back a hundred fold [00:49:40] over when one, when people are looking at their health in a quantifiable measurable way, because when you know what you're dealing with [00:49:50] and when you can see the results in an empirical way, at least it gives you a choice. And most people. We'll be inclined to want to see positive [00:50:00] progression on a numeric, empirical trend when it's subjective and it's not empirical.

It's very easy to attach it to other things that may or may not be [00:50:10] distracting and may or may not be real, but having the numbers, being able to wake up every morning and look at my sleep results and see it in an empirical way, I can. That gives me a degree of confidence in the [00:50:20] result, but also over the time, it gives me a sense of the trend and it forces me to make a decision every day of do I want to undertake the right behaviors that I know will contribute to positive sleep and [00:50:30] rest and recovery and relaxation, or do I not?

And this, having that empowerment is so great. And then from a virtual reality perspective, As I've mentioned a couple of times in this [00:50:40] chat, and as you've mentioned as well, Michael, we're going to operate in a world where hybrid is the new normal, and we need to expect that we're not going to have the luxury of coming together as a team, as frequently as he [00:50:50] once did.

However, we can still build connection in a remote way. And the best way to do that today is with virtual reality. So our team members have virtual reality [00:51:00] headsets. We do meet in VR for team meetings. We actually have been pitching clients recently in virtual reality and getting business through that mechanism.

Um, it's, it's a technology that's very [00:51:10] much on the upswing. It's not the, it's not the panacea for all the world's problems. Um, but it is, it is a. A solution to many of the problems that existed before COVID-19 and [00:51:20] will exist in a post pandemic world. And we view those investments going forward as significant in terms of ensuring that we have the people that we know want to contribute in our [00:51:30] organization, that they're have the right tools to do the job effectively.

Yeah. That's 

Guest 1: [00:51:32] a, it's actually really cool that you're, uh, that you're going to give your employees are ring. So we might bring that up in one of [00:51:40] our meetings as well. We actually. Uh, I started talking about it in, in the company chat and we already have three people with one. So, uh, I'm curious to [00:51:50] see where that brings us.

I mean, 

Matt: [00:51:52] I get it like we're in a situation now where economically speaking, a lot of individuals and a lot of organizations are in a tough spot and they're in a worse spot than they were this time [00:52:00] last year. So I understand it. And I understand that there are, there are very real limitations around resources.

So I'll put that out there and we [00:52:10] spend a lot of money on silly things. Both as individuals and as organizations. And I am, I am as put my hand up, like everybody else to say that I've spent money on myself [00:52:20] and on things that are, have zero ROI that are not delivering benefits to me in the longterm. Um, I have spent money as a business leader in [00:52:30] procuring services and products that ultimately did not deliver a strong ROI.

So if we can spend a few hundred dollars to outfit someone with a VR headset and a few hundred more [00:52:40] dollars to outfit somebody with an aura ring, for example, I think about how much money I spent flying people around the world to meet for in-person meetings, thousands and thousands of thousands of dollars.

I think about how much [00:52:50] money I've spent on all the myriad of things that we talked about. Weighted blankets and blackout curtains and different kinds of sheets and medications and supplements and all these different tips and tricks and hacks, [00:53:00] hundreds and hundreds and thousands of dollars trying to find the solution that ultimately I could have found with some empirical evidence.

Um, so yes, there's an upfront cost. Um, but I choose to view those [00:53:10] types of costs as investments. And I'm a big believer that if you find the right people and if you create a good environment, And you give them the tools to [00:53:20] do their jobs effectively, that most people are going to want to show up and return that kind of kindness in terms of their performance.

And we're in a knowledge-based economy where it is so [00:53:30] much easier to get people's best when you collaborate. And you engage them and you empower them. Then when you chase them and we put them in a situation where there's [00:53:40] fear or manipulation or threats of consequences. So I, that's just the, my mantra in terms of how I've approached life.

I've seen both styles of management and I know what works best for [00:53:50] me as an individual, what works best for me as a leader and. Going forward. We want to make investments in our teams and we'll make investments in our clients as well to make sure that [00:54:00] they can have success because most of us get up in the morning the same way, and we want to contribute.

We want to have a good, you know, a good day at work and want to have a good day at life. And sometimes [00:54:10] things get in the way. So if we can identify those things and remove those barriers, we'll all be. Yeah, 

Guest 1: [00:54:14] definitely. And just in general, investing in wellbeing and I want to stress in investing. [00:54:20] Uh, is something that every company should do and maybe even startups, uh, should, should do it more, uh, since, uh, we expect not necessarily more from [00:54:30] our employees, but the, the environment is different than so high stress environment.

It's a high-performance environment. So stressing that wellbeing is important as a, is definitely something that, [00:54:40] uh, that 

Matt: [00:54:40] everybody should do. Michael as always, I enjoy our chats. Uh, thank you again for joining me so late in your day, for those folks that want to get ahold of Michael, but want to learn more about tech Wolf, [00:54:50] about how they can use artificial intelligence in the context of their strategic workforce planning, or if their broader talent challenges in their organization on a link, all of Michael's details and all of tech [00:55:00] Wolf's details in the comments section of this podcast.

Michael, thank you again for your time today and looking forward to us connecting again, hopefully after a good night's rest. 

Guest 1: [00:55:09] My [00:55:10] pleasure. Thank you, Matt. Bye-bye

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