How to Approach Job Hunting in a Pandemic - Mike Vaughn

Mike Vaughn is a results-driven people leader with 15+ years of experience in complex, global organizations. A trusted business partner, Mike has held numerous HR leadership roles throughout his career, worked globally; including a 3-year assignment in Paris, and most recently held a completely remote role. 

He brings a wealth of experience and a unique perspective to a question facing many of us. What’s next?!

Mike is in the midst of a job search; balancing professional and personal interests against the backdrop of COVID-19, the largest economic disruption of our lifetimes and the unprecedented uncertainty of it all. 

In this episode, Mike and I discuss his search for his next career opportunity, some of the obstacles he’s facing, and what lessons from the past year that he hopes to bring to his next role. 

It was an awesome chat. I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did.

Mike Vaughn

Mike is a results-driven people leader with 15+ years of experience in complex, global organizations.  Mike is a trusted business partner with a proven ability to coach and partner with senior level executives, build strategic relationships, and work with multiple business units to spearhead large-scale projects. 

Mike has held numerous leadership roles throughout his career including recruiting, talent management and HRBP that has taken him around the world, including living in Paris, France for 3 years where he supported numerous large HR initiatives.  Mike graduated from The Ohio State University with a degree in Communications and currently lives in Charlotte, NC where he has worked remotely for the last 3 years.

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Thinking Inside the Box

Constraints drive innovation. Each week we’ll tackle the most complex issues related to work & culture.

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Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Matt: [00:00:00] Constraints drive innovation.

Guest 1: [00:00:08] Probably the most challenging [00:00:10] thing that I've had to deal with is just understanding the role in which we were in or RN just got [00:00:20] elevated. By tenfold, at least compared to maybe how we were viewed previously for pre pandemic.

[00:00:30] Matt: [00:00:38] Hey everyone. It's [00:00:40] Matt here for another episode of thinking inside the box, the show where each week we discuss the most complex issues related to work and culture. If you're interested in checking out our other [00:00:50] content, you can find us at bento, hr.com. And now in virtual reality, each Thursday at 6:00 PM Pacific standard time in Altspace VR or [00:01:00] wherever you find your favorite podcasts by searching the hang inside the box today's episode.

I chat with Mike Vaughn, an HR leader based in Charlotte, [00:01:10] North Carolina, with a reputation for helping organizations translate their people solutions into results. I've known Mike now for over a year. [00:01:20] He joined hacking HRS grow program about the same time. And in that time he's distinguished himself as a senior business executive who selflessly [00:01:30] gives of his time in order to mentor others.

And you know, one of the programs of a mastermind group like grow where HR leaders from around the world come [00:01:40] together to teach and help support each other is the peer to peer learning. Yes, program leaders like myself and Enrique Rubio can create frameworks and [00:01:50] architecture though. Ultimately, the majority of the experience is driven by the lenders themselves.

We create the environments for them to have success, but ultimately they need to drive their own success. And a [00:02:00] large amount of that is that peer to peer learning component. And Mike's been one of the poster children for people that want to get very involved and very [00:02:10] engaged. And as a result has given a lot to other people.

And over the course of our conversation, we tackle a number of topics we discussed, [00:02:20] how COVID specifically has impacted organizations from a people perspective, with a specific emphasis on the impact of remote work we discussed. The [00:02:30] candidate experience and COVID types. Mike is now presently undertaking a job search and we discuss what it's like to be on the other side of the proverbial table and going through a [00:02:40] search during a pandemic and some of the lessons he's been able to glean from that.

And we talk about Mike's expertise with HR business partnering and how the needs of his clients have shifted, but [00:02:50] also the environment has shifted. In the backdrop and that has caused HR business partnering leads to really employ skills they haven't had to in quite some time. So we talk about the [00:03:00] evolution of that.

It was a great conversation and I hope you enjoy it. So without further ado, Mike Vaughn. Like 

Guest 1: [00:03:07] month. How are you, sir? I'm good. How are you, [00:03:10] Matt? I'm doing really well. 

Matt: [00:03:11] Uh, it's a good day today here in Vancouver, Canada, Mike, we've known each other now for well over a year, and we've had a chance to interact on a number of different occasions as part [00:03:20] of the hacking HRS grow program.

So I've got to know you quite well, personally, but for those of us listening who don't know, Mike Vaughn tells me about your background. 

[00:03:30] Guest 1: [00:03:30] Sure. Well first thanks for having me. Um, I'm looking forward to the discussion, so. For me, you know, I sit here in Charlotte, North Carolina. Uh, [00:03:40] I've been in the remote role for about three years, but overall I've had just over 15 years of experience working in large, uh, global [00:03:50] energy and manufacturing companies where I've had a great opportunities to work.

Really all over the world, including a three-year assignment in Paris, France, which by the way, was [00:04:00] probably one of the best personal and professional experiences I've had. Um, I've held different leadership roles, um, over the course of my career from an HRBP, [00:04:10] uh, overseeing the talent management and recruiting functions.

But most recently I was working in an energy company where I was responsible for both the talent management organization, as well [00:04:20] as all the HR piece for our 2300 employee workforce and, and North America. Um, unfortunately due to the industry challenges, my role was eliminated [00:04:30] on 1231 and, uh, currently find myself in the job search.

So really. Interesting to see both sides of the fence as I've gone through this journey [00:04:40] over the past couple of months 

Matt: [00:04:42] in a journey, it, I know I've talked to countless. And frankly, far too many HR professionals who have had their employment [00:04:50] disrupted in the course of 2020. Obviously it goes without saying, but it's been a significantly challenging year for a lot of individuals.

Um, whether it's the global pandemic, whether it's the [00:05:00] economic crisis, whether it's loss of employment, um, health issues, social unrest, it's been a challenging year. And unfortunately, when you see major [00:05:10] shifts in the global context, as we've seen, there are people who, uh, have their lives disrupted for one way or another.

And it's it, to me, it's indicative of the [00:05:20] broader challenges that are occurring. And at the same time, I'm excited to have this conversation, Mike, because you bring a unique perspective to a problem that we've never faced [00:05:30] before. And. Your experiences, both in organizations as a senior HR leader, but also now as a, an individual [00:05:40] seeking employment going forward, you bring a couple different perspectives to, um, a conversation in terms of one, um, how organizations were able to [00:05:50] respond to the pandemic, because as you mentioned, you were in the organization until the very last minute of 2020, and to how organizations are viewing.

The [00:06:00] necessity of leaders going forward, uh, both inside and outside the HR profession. And also just from a personal perspective, like how the last year has been for you. [00:06:10] And, um, you know, I've had a series of chats with senior HR leaders and business leaders over the last several months, just to kind of get it in their impressions of this.

And I'm excited about your, [00:06:20] your lens. I think you bring a unique perspective to these challenges. So let me maybe start with 2020 Mike, what was 2020 like for an HR executive against the backdrop [00:06:30] of a global 

Guest 1: [00:06:30] pandemic. Wow. And you've probably heard the exhale, right, right. You know, 2020. And you know, for us in HR was a challenging year [00:06:40] because I think we all felt the weight of not only the organizations, but I think we, we could no longer separate.

[00:06:50] Our our own personal lives or our own personal experience, because just like our employees and our leadership we're experiencing, we were going through the same thing. But at the [00:07:00] same time, when we went to the organization, we were really being viewed as. The team that was holding us all together, making sure that we were [00:07:10] safe, making sure that we were still being productive, making sure that we were following all the protocols.

And I think for us in HR, we just felt the weight of that. [00:07:20] And I think we still continue to feel the weight of it. That's been probably the most challenging thing that I've had to deal with is just understanding [00:07:30] the role in which we were in or RN. Just got elevated by tenfold, at least compared to maybe [00:07:40] how we were viewed previously pre pandemic.

Matt: [00:07:42] Yeah. I think tenfold is being conservative. Um, probably true, depending on the [00:07:50] organization. You know, I remember still having chats about this time last year, actually with executives from around the world. You know, I, I should share this with story with you before Mike, I, up [00:08:00] until. About two years ago, it was a corporate HR executive and myself.

And when the pandemic hit, I very much felt like a firefighter that a fire station and that I could see the [00:08:10] chaos around me. And yet we, I run a small business now and, um, you know, we have a number of employees around the world, but certainly not at the scale of your organization [00:08:20] and my previous experiences.

And I know how my life would have been. Had I been, uh, an HR executive in one of those organizations and I felt myself very [00:08:30] much called to serve. So I, I spent a lot of time on the phone with HR executives, both in the grow program, but outside the grow program as well, just talking through some of the challenges [00:08:40] they were experiencing as business leaders, but also as individuals, because.

No, it wasn't too long ago when we didn't really know what this pandemic [00:08:50] was. Um, this time last year organizations were still very much debating whether or not they should shut down offices or keep them open. Um, you know, I remember speaking with folks in Latin [00:09:00] America who were very much insistent on that business must continue and the offices would not close.

Meanwhile, we were seeing the, the virus spread through. [00:09:10] Asia Pacific at this point, it had gone into Western Europe. Um, and it was very much now starting to get its early tentacles into North America. Um, but there was this [00:09:20] uneven approach and, you know, uh, a tidal wave, if you will, in terms of around the world and, um, having to counsel senior leaders who were in turn counseling, other senior [00:09:30] leaders, um, was an interesting time.

And I'll always remember that moment. And I'm sure looking back on your experiences, there's some things that you've been able to pick up. Over the last [00:09:40] 12 months that. He wouldn't have been able to get, um, in a, in a textbook or in a, you know, an MBA program that, you know, experiential learning, um, is the ultimate form [00:09:50] of, of, of building skillsets.

I'm curious, as you look back, Mike, what are a couple of things that you took away from the experience? Just either as an individual or as a, as a business leader that you think are going to [00:10:00] be hallmarks of your approach to business going forward? Well, 

Guest 1: [00:10:03] I think the, the first thing that really comes to mind is just.

[00:10:10] The shift, not only in, in ourselves, as HR leaders, but also in the leaders that, that we support or the leaders [00:10:20] within the organization. I saw a big shift early on with just how we approached just basic conversations. And what I [00:10:30] mean by that is you started to see conversations begin to start with how are you doing.

And in my [00:10:40] world in the past, those conversations typically started with where are we on the project? And I think having people. Basically living the same [00:10:50] experience of, of dealing with the challenges of going remote for the first time, dealing with being remote, while you have your children, then your kids at home, [00:11:00] your maybe your spouse is at home.

All of these things, we were all dealing with them together. And so it was almost a shared experience. So people. And leaders and even [00:11:10] ourselves as HR professionals, we started to, I started to see more empathy than I'd ever seen, especially in the organizations [00:11:20] that I've been in. And I think that is something that I truly believe.

And, and hope that carries forward. Right. I think that what we've seen in [00:11:30] organizations is this, um, leading with empathy. And I think we've seen a positive response from our employees in such a way that [00:11:40] we're going to be hard pressed not to continue that and to realize, you know, how that feels to have that conversation.

And to, to really [00:11:50] not only then ask the question, but then give pause. And give space for the response. And that would be, you know, I think the number one thing that, that I've seen [00:12:00] is, is the empathy that, that is coming out with just in and how we interact is as leaders and HR professionals. I I'd say the second [00:12:10] thing that, that comes out, that that will unendowed only be carried forward is just how, how has COVID or how has the pandemic [00:12:20] accelerated some of the.

Some of the things that we had talked about for years in the past, whether that be, how do we conduct [00:12:30] ourselves with regards to video interviewing, how do we conduct ourselves? How do we develop our people if they're not in the office? [00:12:40] And I think what the pandemic did was really not only accelerate our ability to deliver that, but I think it also showed us surprisingly for some [00:12:50] that it not only worked.

But it actually worked really well. And so what I look for in the future, and even though I, I am no longer with the organization. One [00:13:00] of the things that we did prior to us leaving was looking at our 2021, for example, our, our, our learning strategy. And what we saw was accepted [00:13:10] by our executive team was more of a blended approach where we didn't just eliminate.

The progress that we made with [00:13:20] virtual learning, we're actually making that now part of our strategy going forward and, and. At the same time and preparation for including those [00:13:30] in person when we can safely get back into that environment, but still having the opportunity to take advantage of what we learned through 2020.

Matt: [00:13:38] Well, you've raised a number of really good [00:13:40] points. I always interested to see what people have taken away from this time, because it's so much anchored in their experiences, but this idea of. [00:13:50] Everyone having gone through a consistent experience, I think is, is very real. And I think it does breed a greater amount of [00:14:00] empathy.

You know, I think about, you know, traditional programs in HR around like wellness and it's some organizations that I've worked in in the past, you know, requests [00:14:10] or overtures around employee wellness, where sometimes in some cases met with skepticism or that. People, I don't want to [00:14:20] say were negatively impacted in a, in an overt way, but there was a level of reward given to people who showed almost [00:14:30] an unreal, reserved dedication to the firm.

And if you worked 12, 14, 15 hours a day, if you came in on weekends [00:14:40] or were, you know, emailing throughout the weekends in your holidays, if you didn't take time off for vacation that that was seen in some cases, as some cultures, as a real positive, and that those that [00:14:50] made space for family or their health, or tried to put some boundaries around work and life.

To facilitate a greater degree of [00:15:00] balance. There's questions asked about their dedication and there were questions asked about, you know, how committed they were to the business, which I think were unfair, but it was a reality. And [00:15:10] I I'm optimistic that while I don't think our competitive instincts are going to change that there is a greater recognition that it's a lot, like right now we're all [00:15:20] taking on more responsibility personally and professionally than we once did.

That the world is now inherently more complex and will, and will never be as I [00:15:30] use air quotes here, simple as it once was that we'll always deal with another layer of complexity. And a lot of organizations are going to go through, continue to go through massive transformation over the [00:15:40] next several years, as they attempt to try and fit themselves into this new hybrid model that we're all going to experience and.

If we're going to achieve that with a degree of [00:15:50] success and some grace we're going to have to acknowledge that there's a human toll on all of these changes and whether it's the, um, the [00:16:00] necessary shift in competencies and skills. Whether it is the fundamental changing of our jobs and our workplaces, whether it is the [00:16:10] changing nature of core business strategies and whether your business is accelerating or decelerating, there's going to be major like fundamental shifts in the market.

There's a human toll to all of that. And the [00:16:20] idea of. Strong business partnerships will be so critical in service to helping people one [00:16:30] at the very least get through this period of time. But I think more optimistically thrive in this shift because as much as we're going to go through some challenges, there's some opportunities [00:16:40] there also being opened up.

For individuals and organizations. And I get excited about some of those prospects, because as you mentioned, Mike, a lot of these changes are there long standing trends that [00:16:50] we've been predicting for years, but now have gone through a massive acceleration of necessity. And fortunately we have a perspective on what things could [00:17:00] look like, and we've seen examples of organizations that have made this shift.

Prior, um, the, you know, companies I've mentioned base camp, a few different times companies that have been fully remote for years, [00:17:10] um, that have been able to successfully run their businesses this way. You know, we, we do have an opportunity here in front of us and, um, but I think it's incumbent upon business partners like yourself to help other leaders go [00:17:20] through that transition.

So I'm curious for you, you know, how are you and approach business partnering on a go-forward basis? Given what we've experienced? 

Guest 1: [00:17:27] I think first and foremost, you, you [00:17:30] have to. You have to ask. I think one of the things that I've heard learned over the course of 2020 is to really [00:17:40] not try to come to the table with solutions without necessarily, you know, really going deep and [00:17:50] asking the, the people who it's going to most impact how this would impact them.

Being able to come to leaders with. [00:18:00] With not only employee experience or employee feedback, but also now for the first time being able to talk to them [00:18:10] because of their own personal experience and utilizing their own personal experience to drive some initiatives that you mentioned, [00:18:20] whether that's, um, how can we ensure that we are giving space for.

Wellness mental health and understanding that by doing [00:18:30] that, it is actually going to help the organization. It is going to improve or better the organization when it comes [00:18:40] to our results. Because I think as we've all said, it within the, within the people space for years, with all the things around engagement and engagement surveys, [00:18:50] that if you have.

Happy employees, engaged employees, healthy employees, then your business will thrive [00:19:00] and, and bringing it all back to that. I think what 2020 has done has maybe for the first time for a lot of companies has shown leaders that that's [00:19:10] actually true because they've seen employees respond to how they've handled this situation during COVID, whether that's [00:19:20] allowing flexibility.

Being empathetic to what's happening when you have the collision, if you will of work in home and [00:19:30] having leaders see that not only by, by working with employees and giving them that space, they delivered, and for a lot of companies, they D [00:19:40] they over-delivered and, and, and really delivered more than what any of the leaders.

Could have expected. I think when you look back [00:19:50] at March and we went into this, we went into this. So suddenly I think most leaders had the worst [00:20:00] expectation. Of what was going to happen to the business, if they were in a situation that they could still operate in. And obviously knowing that there's a lot of businesses that were severely [00:20:10] impacted by, by the pandemic that didn't have the, the opportunity or could not continue.

But for those that could, I think leaders really came into it with [00:20:20] not real high expectations. And I continue to hear over and over again of how surprised they were. That productivity, [00:20:30] not only didn't didn't fall off, but it actually improved

Matt: [00:20:38] everyone. It's Matt [00:20:40] here. I hope you're enjoying the show before we continue. I wanted to give a quick shout out to one of our sponsors. Benji. The future of work is today. [00:20:50] And that in and the team at Benji have figured out a really cool hands-on learning solution that you need to be considering as you transition your [00:21:00] organizational learning and team building and engagement online.

Now I spend several hours a day myself on video platforms. So whether it's [00:21:10] zoom or Skype or go to meeting, they're great. They allow me to interact with people and see them in all parts of the world, though. If you're like me, once those [00:21:20] calls go on a bit too long, I start to get a little bit. Distracted.

And it's not too long before I'm reaching for my smartphone or opening up another tab on my laptop that [00:21:30] doesn't happen with Benji. They have a catalog of interactive team exercises that makes it really easy for organizations and individual consultants to [00:21:40] develop engaging solutions at any scale. And I'll be honest, I've been so impressed with the tool myself, that we're actually looking at using Benji to power our [00:21:50] virtual workshops with client facing products.

So I'm actually working right now with Matt one-on-one to develop a journey mapping exercise. So we can take clients through the employee [00:22:00] experience and aluminate thousands of dollars and hours of inefficiencies that organizations tend to have in their onboarding and hiring processes. [00:22:10] It's a great tool.

And because you are a listener of the thinking inside the box podcast, you're going to get a special benefit as well. I've talked to Matt. He wants to give as [00:22:20] many people as possible access to this tool so they can make online learning more engaging. And you can do so as well by using the discount code bento 20.

So if you log on to [00:22:30] the Benji website, which is my benji.com and you're as impressed with the solution as I am, then enter the code in Benji 20 and you'll receive 20% off [00:22:40] your purchase. And with that being said, we'll return back to regular. 

Guest 1: [00:22:43] Okay.

Not only did our productivity improved, but we met [00:22:50] all of our customer demands. And then some, and I think that's, that was really surprising. So I think taking all that in and realizing that you, when you [00:23:00] talk to leaders about the things that you were mentioning, you can now talk to them through their own real life experiences.

And, and now talk to them as an [00:23:10] employee sometimes versus, you know, seeing them as a leader who needs to make a decision, but how this has impacted them as well. 

Matt: [00:23:18] I think that's a great point. [00:23:20] I think obviously when you've had firsthand experience, it's easier to build empathy. Um, I think a lot of cases. As a [00:23:30] business partner, you may have been evangelizing solutions that people didn't have firsthand experience with.

And it just, it's always more difficult to have to explain something conceptually to somebody. Um, [00:23:40] but now that people have had that shared experience, it does make it easier to talk about the very real impacts. And I'm curious, Mike, what are your, what's your optimism around [00:23:50] the level of empathy?

Continuing going forward. I mean, I've heard different sides of this and I've been on both sides of this argument, I think in the last six months, you know, do you think we're going to [00:24:00] retain a, a greater degree of empathy in business, or do you think if we look back two years from now, for example, when hopefully this pandemic has subsided and we [00:24:10] moved back to some degree of normalcy.

Do you think, do you think the empathy is specific to the pandemic? Or do you think that it will have lingering effects in other parts of the business? 

Guest 1: [00:24:19] Well, Matt, [00:24:20] what I would say is I hope so that's a really tough question to answer because I think the reason that it wasn't there in the first place [00:24:30] still has an opportunity to be there when the pandemic is gone.

And that is at the end of the day, results are going to take all of the [00:24:40] attention. And so I think it will be very easy for companies to go back to the way that it was, but I just hope [00:24:50] that, you know, we can really have an honest discussion of as bad as the pandemic was. There were some really positive.

Things [00:25:00] that came out of it that we should really talk about and pay attention to on how we can keep those and move and continue to move those forward and empathy being [00:25:10] one of them. But I think given, um, if I think about here in the United States, I think giving everything else that's going on, [00:25:20] I don't know.

I don't know if this empathy, mentality or empathetic mentality will. We'll continue to your point of, [00:25:30] you know, if we look back two years, are we still going to think that it's there? I think for some companies, for the ones that have been at the [00:25:40] forefront of some of these on some of these topics and initiatives, you will start to maybe see some separation.

I think that from [00:25:50] an employee perspective and a candidate perspective, That I think is what will drive whether or not that is successful or not. And what [00:26:00] I mean by that is as employees move forward through the pandemic and way, and we come out the other side, I think that they're going to remember [00:26:10] what that was like and what that felt like.

And if we come out of this and they start to feel that it's changing. Then I think you're going to [00:26:20] find that they're going to start looking for someplace that gives them what they're looking for. And that's both on the employee perspective. And [00:26:30] also as a candidate, I think you're, you're going to see. A potential impact in that space when it comes to retaining our employees and attracting new ones, [00:26:40] I think that's going to be a very key question for people as we come out of this pandemic is to look back and see what I experienced and what do I [00:26:50] want, what it was my work experience needed to look like for me to be successful.

And I think that's going to play a big role because as you know, if companies are finding it harder [00:27:00] to. To attract. And if they're finding it harder to retain, then that starts to drive change because they realize that they have [00:27:10] to be competitive with their competitors. So as we see some of these companies take these initiatives and move them forward.

The ones who don't, I [00:27:20] think are going to be left behind. 

Matt: [00:27:21] Yeah. I think as the coming up plus to carry the lessons forward, and I think your answers wise in that I think hope is [00:27:30] in a lot of cases, we can only control what we can control. And I, I, I have a sense that organizations will adapt some probably won't.

Um, as you've [00:27:40] mentioned, I think the ones that don't. Are going to find it increasingly challenging to operate in this new environment. I think the pandemic, as you've mentioned, can be viewed [00:27:50] under many lenses. And one of them is that it is accelerate for a lot of long overdue shifts in how we view work and how we view people in the context of work.

And [00:28:00] it never sat right with me that we've had at our disposal, the technology for at least the last 15 years, 20 years. Um, That allows [00:28:10] people to be able to work with a greater degree of independence and autonomy, but rather than use the technology for that purpose, we've configured it in such a way that allows for [00:28:20] persistent connectivity, but that still existed, you know, alongside an expectation of being in the office during set business hours.

So, [00:28:30] um, that, you know, that the term electronic leash was kind of thrown around and, you know, Kind of half joking, but there was some truth to that. And, you know, [00:28:40] I think that, uh, it isn't coming upon leaders to, to apply a different approach to these challenges going forward. And we have the ability to make the shift.

And as you've said, we've [00:28:50] seen success of this working and it's. Um, it's no longer a function of, we don't have the experience to either prove or disprove it. We have the experience [00:29:00] and we've done incredible things. Despite very trying circumstances. I think about all the people I've talked to, who've configured the kitchen tables and [00:29:10] you know, the backseats of their vehicles and, um, you know, other less than ideal circumstances.

Two home offices during this time. Imagine if what we could do, if we actually were intentional [00:29:20] about building a greater degree of connectivity and at the same time, I'm not advocating for an environment where things go fully remote. I understand the [00:29:30] significant value of meeting people face-to-face and of having that personal connection.

Um, I just think we need to be real about the fact that things will never be the same, [00:29:40] that we will have people, um, in our workforces, in our society, that will be. Immunocompromised that are not going to want to accept the risk of meeting in large groups of [00:29:50] people, um, that we're going to have organizations that make decisions to reduce their real estate footprint in service to a lot of things, one reducing costs, but two, [00:30:00] um, you know, finding ways to do work differently.

Um, we've now seen a different way in some cases, a better way. And. We're going to have to [00:30:10] get comfortable operating with a greater degree of, of hybrid, uh, approach to business than we have in the past. And I think that we can do that for the better Mike, I mean, [00:30:20] you mentioned earlier in this conversation that you've had some pretty interesting experiences.

One of them being that you spent three years working out of Paris, um, [00:30:30] Which undoubtedly gave you a different perspective on culture and the nature of work. And I can't think of two work cultures that can be more different from each other [00:30:40] than France and the United States. So I'm curious about your thoughts on that.

I'm also just curious more broadly on. What that experience, how that experience may have influenced how the last year has [00:30:50] gone for you and how you approached it, and just having that international experience and working in a new environment, if that had any impact on how the last 12 months has been for you either [00:31:00] personally or professionally.

Guest 1: [00:31:00] Well, I think what, you know, living abroad and working in global organizations, I think what you realize pretty quickly is. The, the stark difference between the [00:31:10] cultures from, you know, even, and I'll go back. But even when yes, I was in Paris, but I had some oversight for an operation we had in [00:31:20] Brazil and this was bad back in 2009.

And to think back that far as, as an American, when I went into the Brazilian operation, I [00:31:30] found it. Yeah, very interesting and very unique because they had. Time dedicated to their employees for yoga, for [00:31:40] exercise. They had the, the mental health rooms and this was, you know, 10 years ago. If I think of and France.

Yes, they're a very employee [00:31:50] centered culture. There are very people centered culture relationships matter. You know, the biggest. And I think one of the surprises [00:32:00] for me is in America, we would find ourselves eating at our desk and France. That would be something that someone looked at you like, you were very [00:32:10] strange because just culturally, those, those interactions and those relationships meant something.

And even, you know, when you think about the, [00:32:20] the remote work, you know, situation. I think I've seen from, from my French colleagues, talk about how they've handled the remote. It's been very, very difficult, [00:32:30] um, for them as, as a culture, just because they they're, they're missing out on that interpersonal connection.

If you think of any movies or any [00:32:40] pictures that you see, the streets are aligned with cafes and people are out and, you know, that's, that's part of the culture. So I think, you know, that's been, you know, [00:32:50] interesting, but I think that's also. Helped me in terms of understanding that relationships are important [00:33:00] and having those interpersonal connections are critical and where I see things going as I'm probably in the same camp as you, I [00:33:10] just don't know about the 100% remote because I do think it comes down to we're all individuals.

And I think leaders are going to have to start [00:33:20] asking themselves, which is a new mind shift for them is they're going to have to be thinking about the decision I make here [00:33:30] needs to be about is the, is the decision I'm taking, going to put the employee in a position to be the most [00:33:40] successful. Version of themselves.

Are they going to be able to be the most productive or are they going to be the best performing? Are they going to deliver the most [00:33:50] value to my organization and my team? And I think the hard part for leaders to grasp will be that for some, the answer [00:34:00] is going to look very different. From the other half of their team for some, it may be five days in the office for others.

It may be three days in the office, two days at home. And for [00:34:10] others, it may be five days in remote. And so I think that's going to be the challenge that organizations are facing as they start to look at this because we are all individuals. 

Matt: [00:34:19] Yeah. [00:34:20] And organizations have traditionally not been set up to accommodate the needs of individuals, but have rather insisted upon a degree of, um, you know, it goes back to that [00:34:30] industrial.

Economy methodology of factories and workers as cogs. And, you know, everyone's treated the same and there's a consistent treatment and we're getting to a place now [00:34:40] where individuality needs to be reflected in work culture as well. And you're right. There's going to be myriad of, uh, Unique circumstances.

I [00:34:50] think about the person whose child has a respiratory illness. They're going to approach this thing differently than somebody who's 25 and single Elizabeth, two roommates versus somebody [00:35:00] who is caring for perhaps children and ailing parents versus like, it's just, there's so many different unique circumstances we can go on and on about them.

Um, but they're going to [00:35:10] require a different level of care and treatment, and it's going to be incumbent on organizations to configure. Circumstances and environment conditions for them to have [00:35:20] success because we're getting to a place now where if they don't somebody else will. And I know Mike, you spent a lot of time thinking about talent and [00:35:30] about organizational continuity and business continuity, and I can't help, but think we're going to see a refresh expectation on the part of job seekers [00:35:40] for.

Different things from employers, whether that be flexibility, whether that be greater autonomy, whether it be better tools to do the job. Um, but we're getting into an era where [00:35:50] a lot of organizations will make the shift and those that don't will be at a disadvantage and attracting the best kind of talent.

No, I think 

Guest 1: [00:35:56] you're absolutely right. I think that's going to be, as I mentioned, [00:36:00] that's, that's going to be a key component for. For natto employees to be retained, but also for candidates to be attracted to your brand and to your company, [00:36:10] they're going to want to know if they have that flexibility. And then if they do have that flexibility, do they have the technology?

Do they have the culture? [00:36:20] Do they have the environment to, to be successful? Because one thing that I've experienced over the last year, As you know, we, as a company are [00:36:30] not necessarily considered a remote first company by, by any means. And so for me as an employee to, to have been working remote for the last three years, but [00:36:40] you know, most importantly, this, this last year, I think one of the things that it's highlighted is it's not just a simple flip of the switch to go remote.

[00:36:50] There are so many things behind the scenes that you need to think about, and then you need to do consider technology of courses is a big one, but it's also about [00:37:00] how do we, how do we shift the culture? Because even though I am a remote employee, if the rest of the organization is co located [00:37:10] in an office, And they don't recognize the challenges of the remote employee.

Then it creates additional challenges I think. And so, you know, [00:37:20] all of those things need to be considered. I think it's very, I think it's much easier for companies, like you mentioned to base camp who have been remote from day one. So when they're hiring people, [00:37:30] they're hiring people that. No, what they're getting into.

They, they understand what that's, what that working environment is going to be like. And they seek it out. Versus when you [00:37:40] have companies that have been in a co located environment who suddenly go remote, that's a big shift. And I think it's, it [00:37:50] will definitely take. Lots of questions and really seeking to understand, making sure that you are able to address all of these potential [00:38:00] questions that undoubtedly will be.

Matt: [00:38:02] So, Mike, I'm curious, you've again, we've discussed this a few times. You've got a great breadth of [00:38:10] experience and you've seen these particular challenges from multiple perspectives for the business leaders out there that are looking at. Their organizational cultures [00:38:20] and looking at defining cultures in the future that are going to have longstanding sustained success.

What are a couple of tips that you'd give them to think [00:38:30] about or some considerations that they should look at as they consider crafting this next chapter of their own journeys? 

Guest 1: [00:38:35] Yeah, I think first and foremost, I think you have to, you have to be [00:38:40] very clear about why you're doing it. Like it's, it would be very easy to just simply say, let's go remote or are we very easy to say let's offer all of these [00:38:50] perks and benefits, but I think you have to, to figure out and be grounded in the why.

And, and come back to the Y with [00:39:00] everything that you're looking at in terms of how your cultivating the future. And I think if you can do that, then that's going to help you make sense of [00:39:10] those decisions that you're ultimately going to take is, is be grounded in why we want to do what we want to do.

Secondarily as [00:39:20] leaders, we should just ask. I think sometimes we can get caught up and trying to solve whatever it is that [00:39:30] we're, we're looking to solve. But we forget to ask the people that it will actually impact the most. And I think as leaders, [00:39:40] we have to be purposeful with. With our decisions. And we have to be very clear on who our decisions are going to [00:39:50] impact.

And then we need to engage those that, that our decisions will impact to find out what a potential. [00:40:00] What the, what the, what the future may look like and, and to be really purposeful and you know, how we ask it and hopefully [00:40:10] working together collaboratively to build a better future. I think those are, you know, those are the two things that come to mind that I [00:40:20] would, you know, be.

Be working with my leaders on is defining what that why is, and then making sure that we identify who's being [00:40:30] impacted and we start to bring them into the fold on, on creating something new. 

Matt: [00:40:34] That's great advice, Mike. And I want to thank you again for your time today. It's always a pleasure for you and I to connect.

[00:40:40] And I'm looking forward to our future chat. So thanks again for joining us today. Uh, for those who are interested in connecting with Mike on any number of reasons I'm going to connect his details below in the podcast. [00:40:50] Show notes, Mike and I we're going talk again real soon, but until we do, I want to wish you a great rest of your week.

And, uh, I'm looking for our next chat. All right, you too, Matt. Thanks 

Guest 1: [00:40:59] for having me

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