How do we Find Today’s Cultural Architects - Ralph Chapman

Ralph Chapman is a Garland, Texas-based recruitment expert with over 25 years’ of experience. In the last 15 years, he’s specialized exclusively in placing HR professionals. Working with organizational Founders, Boards and CEOs, he has a unique perspective on the evolution of organizations, and more specifically, what they expect from their HR leaders.

The HR profession has undergone an incredible transformation in the preceding 20 years. From administrative, compliance-focused professionals, to strategic, performance-obsessed business partners.

As the pace of change has quickened, Ralph’s been the constant.

The very definition of work is changing; and organizations must rapidly-adapt to become a hybrid; equally adept in both the physical & digital world.

HR professionals are the tip of that spear - tasked with identifying, attracting, hiring, developing & retaining the employees necessary to realize success in this new world. And Ralph is tasked with finding the HR executives organizations need to make this transition.

It’s no small task - every day he’s speaking with Boards & Executive teams who expect more from their HR leaders. And he’s speaking with HR leaders looking to rebrand, retool & re skill in order to remain relevant.

This is the leading edge of organizational change, and over the next 45 minutes, I ask Ralph to share what he’s hearing & seeing. I ask for his impressions of 2020 & what he sees for 2021 and beyond.

If you want a roadmap to how organizations view their talent, this is the episode for you. And it was certainly one of my favourites.

Ralph Chapman

Ralph Chapman has been in recruiting for 25+ years. For the last 15+ years he has specialized exclusively in placing HR professionals. He started HR Search Pros, Inc. 13 ½ years ago because of the need for an HR specific search firm that could truly be a valuable partner for companies looking for great HR professionals and for candidates looking for their next HR opportunity.

He works with HR professionals at all levels, including up to the CHRO/CPO, all over the US (internationally on occasion), in any industry, and any size company.

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Thinking Inside the Box

Constraints drive innovation. Each week we’ll tackle the most complex issues related to work & culture.

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Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Guest 1: [00:00:00] And it's going to catch a lot of companies completely off guard because they're not talking about moving. People are staying where their ass, they think they're fine, [00:00:10] but Holy cow, if things pick up, it is going to be very, very interesting. And I think a lot of. The company are sitting there going, well, wait a second.

You're leaving what happened. [00:00:20] And, but, but it all goes back to how do they value their people? How do they carry that through HR?

[00:00:30] Matt: [00:00:38] Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another [00:00:40] episode of thinking inside the box, the show where each week we tackle the most complex issues related to work. And culture. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at [00:00:50] bento, hr.com or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. And today's episode.

We chat with Ralph Chapman, a Garland, Texas based recruitment [00:01:00] expert with over 15 years of experience placing senior HR leaders. And as the founder of HR search pros, Ralph has a unique vantage point [00:01:10] on the seismic shift happening inside of organizations today. Why you might ask? Well, increasingly organizations are looking for HR leaders [00:01:20] that transcend the traditional administrator archetype and are actually more like cultural architects.

The very definition of work is changing and [00:01:30] organizations must adapt to become equally adept at operating in the physical and digital worlds. It's become a [00:01:40] hybrid and HR professionals. Are the tip of that spear tasked with identifying, attracting, hiring, developing, and retaining the [00:01:50] employees necessary to realize success for organizations in this new normal Ralph is tasked with finding the HR executives needed to make this transition.

[00:02:00] And it's no small task every day. He's speaking with boards and executive teams who expect more than ever before from the HR leaders. And he's [00:02:10] speaking with the HR leaders themselves who are looking to rebrand, retool, and re-skill in order to remain relevant. This is the leading change inside of [00:02:20] organizations and over the next 45 or so minutes, Ralph and I discuss what he's hearing and what he's seeing in the marketplace for his impressions [00:02:30] of 2020 and what he thinks 2021 holds for us.

If you want a roadmap of how organizations are looking at talent differently going forward, this is [00:02:40] the episode for you. And it was certainly one of my favorite chats in recent memory. So without further ado, Ralph shopping, Ralph, how are you doing today? [00:02:50] How are you? I'm doing well. It's the holiday season here in Canada.

And I'm looking forward to this call conversation to kind of send things off on a positive note into 2020. And [00:03:00] before I talk about 2020 and your experiences in the year, I think maybe it's best to take a step back and introduce our audience to who Ralph Chapman is. So Ralph, I mean [00:03:10] a bit about yourself, your background, your experiences.

Guest 1: [00:03:11] All right. Well, sounds good. Well, yeah, I went to Georgia tech and my plan was to be a computer programmer and, uh, but I was on a Navy ROTC scholarship. So when I got out, I was in the [00:03:20] Navy about three and a half years. And by the time I got out, everything had completely changed. And, uh, so I interviewed with a couple of different companies and started out with, uh, a trucking company, did some [00:03:30] recruiting for them and just got the recruiting bug and, uh, have been in it ever since.

And then about, I guess, I guess about. 1520 years ago, got into the search world [00:03:40] business. And, uh, it was just kind of an interesting change, uh, but I've always had a passion for HR and then transitioned to just placing human resource professionals about 15 years ago, [00:03:50] and then went out on my own about 13 and a half years ago now.

And, uh, it's, it's been, uh, But a fun, interesting ride. Uh, but our focus has just placed HR professionals, predominantly us, but any [00:04:00] industry typically, you know, director and above level, but we've worked all sorts of different searches, but it's kind of a broad spectrum of different things within the HR realm.

And I've been doing that for awhile and just, it's certainly very blessed. [00:04:10] Yeah, you touched 

Matt: [00:04:10] on it, but I was gonna ask you it maybe a bit more specifically of all the professions and I've been in the corporate world for most of my adult life and. When I look at the traditional [00:04:20] siloed functions of, of a corporate entity and marketing and operations and finance and it, and then HR, HR to me is a, is a very specific and niche area.

And it's an area of [00:04:30] practice that not a lot of search firms focus in on, they do in addition to other parts of their business. I'm just curious for you, Ralph, why specifically have you focused in on HR? Well, it was 

Guest 1: [00:04:39] kinda, it [00:04:40] was kinda funny. Cause like I said, I kinda fell into recruiting and then, uh, work with a search firm that we tried to work on all sorts of different roles, you know, be all things, all people.

And there was just a lot of frustration [00:04:50] of the company sides, their client side going, Hey, you know, we've got 50 different recruiters. What makes you special? And you know, there's nothing over a specialty or whatever. And so I started kind of chewing on that and thinking about it. [00:05:00] Uh, and then what fell out to me is, you know, I just.

I had a passion for HR. It was just kind of funny. The different roles I've had always had, even in the Navy had a tailored part that was HR, uh, until I was [00:05:10] like, well, gosh, I ought to do that. And then you think about it, part of it too, is it's a great way. Cause one, and you said exactly, there's not a lot of firms that do it.

Uh, and then two, I was [00:05:20] thinking, okay, if I'm placing just HR folks, those are the people I'm talking to every day. You know, it, it can be a great situation. Uh, you know, we could talk about the marketplace and, and we've been, again, super [00:05:30] blessed, a lot of companies that we work with now, you know, we started out just talking about HR, you know, Hey, Rob don't need any help right now.

I've got plenty of search firms, you know, whatever, who are you. And then we develop that relationship and they realize, you know, Hey, [00:05:40] we know what we're talking about. It can be a resource. And then, so it just kind of built on that. And, and it's been again, just to. Interesting ride with all the changes over the last several years.

But, [00:05:50] uh, but just again, kind of something I fell into and looking back, it was a great idea. It's worked out better than I even imagined or thought, uh, you know, cause we're talking to those specific people. And then I know a [00:06:00] lot of other firms that do all kinds of different things, get all frustrated. They know HR doesn't respond or whatever, but you know, we.

Again, have had great experiences with HR, people that we've gotten to know over the years, uh, you [00:06:10] know, and certainly lay offs or things change wherever they are. You know, we've already got that contact and now we can switch and transition and help them out as they look for a new role too. And so it's just been a neat, neat [00:06:20] situation and it's been a great niche.

And like I said, that. And, and it's funny because I'll, you know, I love cold call and talking to companies for the first time and, you know, we've got plenty of search firms, like, Oh, I do is just [00:06:30] HR. It's like, what? Now? That's, that's unusual. And, uh, it kind of allows us to get a kind of foot in the door, at least to have a conversation.

And, uh, you know, we as HR folks always like to talk about HR and what we're [00:06:40] seeing. And, uh, so it's, like I said, it's worked out very, very well, so a little different, but we love it. 

Matt: [00:06:44] Well, you hit on a few things there often. I think you're you're right. HR folks is specifically in the search space are [00:06:50] inundated with firms who are.

Oh, yeah. Cold calling, reaching out for business. You know, everyone's offering something that is unique and special and different. And um, the [00:07:00] more time you spend in the profession, the more you realize that there really isn't a lot that differentiates firm to firm other than relationships. Again, the fact that you specialize in the [00:07:10] profession, um, is unique and.

I'm not surprised that it lends itself to deeper relationships because, you know, spending that much time focusing in on HR, you get a greater [00:07:20] appreciation of some of the challenges that are come along with the profession. And when I look at 2020, I mean, it's probably the biggest. Gross understatement. [00:07:30] I could make, it's been a challenging year for HR professionals.

Yeah. Yeah. What's 2020 been like from your vantage point, you know, what kind of things have you heard or experienced? Yeah. As [00:07:40] you, as you speak to a, you, an audience, as you speak to a, a community of HR people, like what are some of the, if you will, some of the things that stand out for you as far as 2020 is concerned, Well, it was really 

Guest 1: [00:07:49] interesting.

I mean, [00:07:50] we were humming and running and gunning right till COVID hit. And then we had some searches that went on hold someone away, and some were keep plugging away, but it was a real challenge. And what we've [00:08:00] seen a lot as we talk with, you know, people that are looking and, you know, people that are higher end or, you know, on hold or whatever, it was a challenging time and a huge transition.

You know, we, we [00:08:10] had several companies that were already doing video interviews and then, so it wasn't that. Or difficult of a transition, you know, but, but it's very relational HR, you know, it's very personal, you know, and, and so they [00:08:20] love the face-to-face interview. So that's been a big challenge for a lot of companies, you know, adopting the technology they didn't have.

And how do we do that? What's different. What's the same. And, and, and it was kind of funny. I've had two or three [00:08:30] different folks, reporters reach out and talk to me about military interviewing and, and for some companies, like I said, it was just a natural transition. Some it was very difficult to make that change.

And then of course you have challenges [00:08:40] technology. Is it working? Is it not? You know, so that, that was probably the number one. The thing is like, Holy cow, what's what's happening. Uh, you know, number two, I think there were some knee jerk responses from some companies that, you know, how do we save money or [00:08:50] to lay off HR.

And, uh, and I think that has made a terrible impact on the reputation of a lot of companies as the employees are like, wait a second, what's going on? And, uh, [00:09:00] you know, and so the others that were kind of back to the question about why an HR, well, I figured you're always going to have at least one good HR person or whatever the size of the company.

And, uh, and so I think some companies have SLAs that, so we've [00:09:10] seen some overreaction on companies, you know, what to do. And, uh, and it's been a real eye-opener for the profession about how do we support the employees? No matter what the [00:09:20] times are like in, in particularly in a time like this, where. Things got crazy.

So, yeah, so I said, no, y'all number one that transitioned to video interviewing, you know, number two, is this a really position we need going to be a [00:09:30] remote position? Can it not? And that's been a big challenge again, for a lot of my clients that are used to very relational everybody's in the office, you know, and, and to say, okay, now you're working from home and nobody's in the [00:09:40] office.

Uh, it's, it's, it's very much of a challenge for some companies realize, you know, I have a couple clients that have always done remote or are used to remote. And so again, it was kind of a natural [00:09:50] progression, but other companies. Big big transition, big challenge. And so, you know, like I said, it was very difficult those first couple of months, and then things started to pick up, but I will say for us, again, [00:10:00] super thankful, super blessed.

We have seen so much activity just the last month or two, you know, some are new roles due to growth. Some are roles that I'm kind of been sitting around [00:10:10] that, you know, COVID not, COVID go away stay or whatever, you know, they still have to have this role. And, and it's been a real challenge. I know for a lot of the recruiters at the companies, because there's.

So [00:10:20] many people are looking for work and so many people applying and, you know, and they're trying to dig through all that. And then the great thing that we're able to always bring is that relationship, you know, Hey yes, on paper, the person looks [00:10:30] wonderful, but there are wonderful and reality too, or Hey, it's a good cultural match or not.

And so that, that's always a challenge, I think internally, you know, cause there's no way you can talk to everybody that applies. [00:10:40] And particularly right now when everybody applying and so we're able to kind of weed through those and get to know people and, and not only present. The paper, uh, the resume, but, but also the person, and I know that's [00:10:50] been a tough thing for a lot of companies, just digging through everybody that's applying.

Uh, and, and then just a lot of concern, you know, what's the future hold what's going to happen. COVID going away. Gonna not, you know, so there's, there's [00:11:00] a lot of uncertainty, but things seem to, again, seem to be leveled down a little bit from a company standpoint. And again, We've got to have some strong HR leaders in here, Lord willing.

We'll never have to deal it again, [00:11:10] something like this at least, but, you know, but, but being prepared as best we can for situations. And, and that goes back to, I think, just so how critical the HR professional is in [00:11:20] general to have that steady hand, that steady mind. To, to, you know, weed through and go through these tough situations.

And so it, you know, some companies have handled it very, very well. Others have really struggled [00:11:30] and, uh, and, and it's, it's tough. And then from the candidate perspective, I know just a lot of frustration with the folks that we talked to, that, you know, Hey, I applied to 10 jobs, nobody's called nobody's emailed me [00:11:40] not hearing anything.

Uh, and, and a lot of companies have really struggled. With the reputation. Uh, and that's, it's hard to build that back, you know, after this. So, you know, and, and I'm not saying they [00:11:50] all messed up, but I think some companies could have done a little bit better job doing those types of things, but, but it it's certainly been a challenge.

Like we've never seen for sure. 

Matt: [00:11:56] Wow. I think 2020s caught all of us flat-footed [00:12:00] in one way, shape or form, and you hit it on a couple of really key points there. I think. I look back at my 15 years in the HR profession. And there are some organizations that I work with where [00:12:10] I felt really supported in HR, where I felt like there was a strategic view of the profession, where they valued HRS opinion, uh, where they sought our counsel [00:12:20] when it came to.

Decisions that affected their employees. And in large part, Ralph, I mean, if I look back and take even a further step back, the companies that value their employees the most often valued [00:12:30] HR as a function of that, because they realized that there was a, a natural value exchange that needed to occur there.

And I've also worked in organizations where they didn't, um, Or they [00:12:40] did, and it was conditional. So they did when revenues were great, but when revenues were perhaps more challenged than it was, you know, back to the scarcity mindset. So when you said, when you said before that, you know, when COVID hit some [00:12:50] companies, knee jerk, reacted and laid off staff, especially in HR, like disappointing, but not surprising.

Um, I've, I've seen that unfortunately on, on too many [00:13:00] occasions where HR is viewed as. It's not clear in the organization that either because they don't have a position or because the HR professionals [00:13:10] themselves, haven't positioned themselves as true business partners, um, that the value isn't clear and it, when things are tough financially, you have to make tough [00:13:20] decisions and yeah.

If the organizational mandate is to remove HR, will you, then you kind of know how the organization feels about its people. It's, it's a [00:13:30] really strong signal. And you mentioned this before that people in the organization who aren't in HR, better employees that are watching, they're looking around and going every decision that's made.

They're very [00:13:40] much assessing organizations. And one thing that I haven't heard talked about a lot yet, but I think it's going to become a more common narrative as we [00:13:50] transition into a degree of this new normal, and I'm optimistic like URLs, the 2021 is going to be a much better year for organizations that with the rollout of vaccines worldwide, that we may [00:14:00] return to some degree of normalcy and that the economy will spring back.

And a lot of jurisdictions we're still gonna have our challenges, but I I'm optimistic. That we've we've, we're, we're coming out of the worst [00:14:10] part of this and that we may see some steady improvements going forward. And I think that one thing that as I look at this time, a common piece of [00:14:20] feedback that I've heard on a one-to-one basis or in small groups, but I haven't heard transcend into the kind of, if you will, the social media or the media narrative is there are [00:14:30] a lot of people right now looking at their organizations and asking, is this the place that I want to be?

Long-term. They're not willing to move right now because there's still this feeling of scarcity and [00:14:40] the unknown and job security right now is at a premium. So with the amount of, of churn in the market, most people aren't from my experience looking to make a move right [00:14:50] now, if they don't have to. However, when this starts to settle, There are people right now who are very much assessing how their organizations have responded during these trying [00:15:00] times.

And let me be clear. I don't think anyone that I've talked to expects perfection, and we all know that things have been challenging, but you know, this better than most [00:15:10] Ralph, you know, in challenging times, this is when leaders get a chance to show their true metal and they get a chance to really show their true values and character.

And I think a lot of people [00:15:20] have. Been faced with the reality of, okay, this is actually how my company feels about me or my profession or the people in this organization. And I mean, to [00:15:30] reconcile it, just a place that I want to support going forward. And we're entering into this new era of the, you know, the labor economy where the individual employee isn't is going to have more.

[00:15:40] Options and more choice than they've ever had before. And again, Ralph, he knows better than most the best employees in our companies always have options. They [00:15:50] always have, um, you know, multiple, you know, areas they can explore either internally laterally in the organization or certainly outside the four walls of a company.

So I get curious about. Yes, we're [00:16:00] in the state right now of flux and churn and we're filling spots. I expect there'll be a second wave where there'll be a rationalization of talent and people moving around. And I think you're [00:16:10] wise to point out that some companies have done a really good job of approaching this ethically and transparently and with the employees in their companies, front of center and some haven't, [00:16:20] um, and that will shake it's way out in the market.

And it's, it's going to be an interesting space next couple of years. So 

Guest 1: [00:16:26] when you said I completely agree. And, and one [00:16:30] of the saddest part of my day is, you know, I have so many people that are reaching out, Hey, I got laid off or, you know, just terrible situations. And you know, we're doing everything we can to help, but, but I am [00:16:40] seeing exactly what you described.

I have so many people calling over these last several months, even when it first hit that. You know, Hey, I've got a job markets will uncertain. I'm not sure what I'm [00:16:50] gonna do, but man, once things pick up a little bit or you see something specific I'm outta here. And, uh, and, and it's just so sad and it all goes back to again, how, how are people being treated?

[00:17:00] How are they're seeing they're being treated and, and it's really been an eye opener for a lot of folks. I thought they were being treated well, you know, and now see this and realize I am not. And, uh, so yeah, I, [00:17:10] I completely agree. And it's going to catch a lot of companies completely off guard because they're not talking about moving.

People are staying where they're at, so they think they're fine, but [00:17:20] Holy cow, if things pick up, it is going to be very, very interesting. And I think a lot of. The company are sitting there going, wait a second, you're leaving what happened. And, but, but [00:17:30] it all goes back to how do they value their people?

How do they carry that through HR and those types of things. But yeah, I, I agree completely. It's funny you say that because I'm seeing exact same thing. A lot of one-on-one a lot of small groups from [00:17:40] apart, online networking groups of people I'm talking to, but, but I have not really heard anybody else talking about it and it's going to be a shock.

I think, to a lot of companies just completely wait [00:17:50] a second. Where'd that come from? So, yeah, it's, it's funny you bring that up. Yeah. And I, and 

Matt: [00:17:53] I, and if you reap what you, so in some ways, right? So at the end of the day, I [00:18:00] don't want companies to experience any more disruption and like you, a lot of how I spent the first part of 2020, I mean, I I've joked about this a few [00:18:10] times, Ralph.

I mean, this is the first year that I haven't been in a corporate HR executive role since the early two thousands. So I very much felt like a firefighter without a fire station at the parks part of the year, [00:18:20] because. Everything's going left. Right. And you know, up and down and it's all hitting the fan and I'm used to being in that situation.

Okay. Well, if that's, if it's hitting the fan, how am I going to respond for my [00:18:30] organization? What do they need me to do? And running my own small business, it was a very different context. It was, uh, um, I found myself talking a lot to HR executives in February, March, April, may, [00:18:40] about some of the challenges they were facing, whether it was closing offices or testing or.

You know, having to do, as you mentioned, LA large-scale layoffs and, you know, senior HR [00:18:50] executives from around the world. And it was, you know, it started out with people in Asia Pacific, and then it went over to Western Europe and then it went to North America, then South America that I can almost trace the [00:19:00] pandemic and how it was flowing based on the calls that I was getting in.

And, you know, these are just people calling me and asking for my advice, because I've had experience with large scale transformations before and been part of [00:19:10] organizations that have gone through some pretty significant crises. And. The stories that I was hearing were just, they're breaking my heart in terms of, you know, as I said before, when things are [00:19:20] less than ideal, when there's a very real risk, some leaders rise to the occasion and some leaders don't and in those organizations, I would hear stories [00:19:30] about managers realizing that employees in their business had COVID, but not willing to close that offices.

Um, I was hearing stories of managers realizing [00:19:40] that they were going to have some, some tail or some headwinds around revenue and then laying off a third of their staff prematurely only to try and rehire half of them back two weeks later, like just some [00:19:50] really bad decisions because people were scared and they didn't have information and they didn't have the leadership.

If you will. Muscle to [00:20:00] be able to withstand all of the chaos and not pass it on to their organization. I mean, one thing that you learn very early on in HR, it's a [00:20:10] profession where you don't have the proverbial stick. There's no role in HR that I've ever seen, where you can walk around a business and say, you should do this because if you don't there's consequences, like [00:20:20] HR is about influence and persuasion and relationships.

So you learn that. You're only going to go as far in terms of your impact, as far as your relationships will [00:20:30] take you. And that means interacting with lots of different kinds of people and in a lot of ways, acting as a conduit or a buffer between the business and the [00:20:40] frontline or the, or different business leaders, because you're, you're in some ways, sheltering the business from the imperfections of leadership so [00:20:50] that they can.

You know, carry on and do their jobs. Because a lot of things that you see sometimes at the C-suite at the board level are things you probably wouldn't want your organization to know about [00:21:00] because some of the questions that are asked and some of the opinions that are held are so detached from. Empathy and emotional intelligence that you're like, okay, how [00:21:10] do you have responsibility for other human beings?

It it's, it's like, it's shocking. And, but it's a reality because we all come at these things from different [00:21:20] ways. So I know, I know that in COVID-19 when the, when the urgency and the. The S the seriousness ratchets up. Some people lean [00:21:30] into their network. They lean in to support. They ask for opinions, they crowdsource solutions believing that they don't have all the answers and they needed to make this a group effort and some [00:21:40] isolate themselves from other people, and start to make really quick decisions that are very, very siloed.

Often not taking into the broader picture into account. And we're talking about [00:21:50] this in a, in an HR context, Ralph, I bet you, if I had a CMO or somebody focused in, on marketing search, they would have a similar depth of a narrative around some of the things that happened externally from a branding [00:22:00] perspective that companies would have done during the last year, because they were so focused on, maybe they turned off the taps around messaging and branding and relationship building and the marketplace in [00:22:10] service to saving money or making more knee-jerk decisions.

So I hope that. In among all of this, that organizations and their leaders. I mean, you hate to have this trial by fire, but [00:22:20] if you can learn something from this experience and be able to bring that with you in a leadership sense, going forward it's that when these things do happen, you have an [00:22:30] opportunity to show up.

And be a solid, consistent ethical leader in times like this, and it doesn't require you to be right. It doesn't require you to [00:22:40] know everything. It doesn't require you to be superhuman, but it requires you to. Lean into some vulnerability to ask people for help to ask people for advice. [00:22:50] Uh, and that's what people are craving in the 21st century.

The days of the leader who knows everything and dictates from the office down to the factory [00:23:00] floor, that leadership style is declining and currency. And it doesn't do you any favor, especially at a time, like COVID-19 where it would seemingly from my perspective, be the perfect opportunity to say, Hey, [00:23:10] I don't have all the answers.

I'm scared too. I don't know where this is. Businesses go, and I don't know what we can do to fix this, but I know that if we collaborate and if [00:23:20] we share and if we're willing to be agile and we all like lean in on this, that we have a better chance than if we don't, but there were still old habits die hard.

And, um, Yeah, [00:23:30] I think we're going to look back at this. And I, I have a sneaking suspicion that when we look back, we will see like in 2008, a large percentage of the fortune 1000 [00:23:40] companies will not be able to make the transition into this new way of working because their leadership practices and their habits and the routines they built in, won't allow them to shift.

They'll try and [00:23:50] rationalize the old way and try and make it work in the new way. And it won't, and they'll fail and we'll be able to draw a line and say the companies that. Adapted their [00:24:00] management practices, adaptive leadership practices were agile enough to make the shifts. We'll be the ones that have some modicum of success and those that don't won't, [00:24:10] and it will be sad because a lot of people will be affected by that.

And yeah. That's the world we live in. That's a capitalist structure. And when the, when the rules of the game [00:24:20] change, if you don't adapt to the new rules, then you're going to lose the game. And it's, it's, that's the, it's the piece where I am one hand, Ralph, I'll be honest. [00:24:30] I look forward to that and I don't, that may sound a bit morbid, but some of these changes that we were talking about right now, they're 20 years in the making.

A lot of the things that we're talking about in terms of leadership practices and [00:24:40] you know, emotional intelligence and empathy. They're not new concepts. They're accelerated because of COVID-19, but they're not new. They're not nothing. There's nothing groundbreaking here. [00:24:50] And I also realized that on the path to get to that future.

There's going to be collateral damage in the form of lost jobs companies that won't work economic [00:25:00] implications of it. And I wish we didn't have to go down that path to realize those benefits. Unfortunately, I also, you know, one reason, one of the reasons why I originally left the corporate world, Ralph was I [00:25:10] started to realize, you know, the longer I spent in it, that what we were doing, wasn't making sense.

And how we were operating. Wasn't a path to success going forward. [00:25:20] And unless we changed as leaders and as an organization, if something didn't go according to the plan, we were, we were seeing a slower erosion of our success over time. [00:25:30] We would have to make this fundamental shift and you can ignore it only for so long before you have to change the dynamic of things.

And you know, the, [00:25:40] you can't fight time. Like there is no there's no, there's, there's no slowing this down. It's now been sped up. So, you know, long story short, I, I. [00:25:50] I do feel a sense of optimism going forward in terms of how businesses can potentially have more flexibility for their employees, how businesses [00:26:00] that are more, you know, values centered we'll have success that the technology innovations that we're going to deploy in organizations will ultimately [00:26:10] lead to.

A better work-life integration if you will, because, you know, we look at the rising rates of mental health and, you know, the debris low decreasing rates of engagement and realize there's a [00:26:20] bigger problem here than we've been talking about for a long period of time. I'm optimistic. Those things will get better.

Um, and I'm also mindful of the fact that they get there. We're going to have some bumps along the way. And, um, I [00:26:30] think it's, it's incumbent upon all of us, including the people that you're placing organizations to be thoughtful about. How do you ease that transition from where companies are today, um, into [00:26:40] where they need to go to be successful going forward?

Hey everyone, it's Matt here. I hope you're enjoying the show before we continue. I wanted to give a [00:26:50] quick shout out to one of our sponsors. Benji. The future of work is today. And Matt Parsons and the team at Benji have figured out [00:27:00] a really cool hands-on learning solution that you need to be considering as you transition your organizational learning and team building and engagement online.

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[00:28:50] Guest 1: [00:28:52] leopard. Yeah. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, a whole ton of what, you know, you share a lot of what we're seeing.

And like you talk about the [00:29:00] relationships and just, you know, being real, Hey, I don't have all the answers I'm working on this too. And, and folks like that. And that's been a real neat thing that we've seen over the years because. Again, I've been doing research work for [00:29:10] 20 years, but HR for 15. And you know, when I started doing this to where I am now, it's a completely different situations.

You know, titles are different scope of responsibilities, [00:29:20] different such an emphasis on business partner. And we, we place a lot of folks in these roles where. Companies will call back in a week on guys. They're doing stuff we hadn't even thought of or never saw HR do before. And [00:29:30] that's really cool. And those are the types of people that we've had great success partnering with, you know, on the candidate perspective is to really come in and make a difference, make an impact.

And again, not that they know all the in everything or have all the answers, [00:29:40] but. Are compassionate, you know, are willing to learn and do things differently and look at things from a different perspective. And then kind of what you talked about technology. That's a whole other thing which I should have mentioned earlier.

One of your [00:29:50] questions, you know, about what we saw and seeing is we're seeing such an emphasis on technology and systems and, you know, whatever we can do to be more effective. If and some HR [00:30:00] folks are embracing it and some aren't and the ones that are embracing in our BMR, that business partner, and I'm talking to business partner at every level, whether it's comp benefits towards recruiting, staffing, generalist, [00:30:10] whatever, you know, you've got to come in and learn the business.

And I'm thrilled to say more and more companies are seeing it more and more companies are looking for, you know, but not every HR person is like that. And, and, but [00:30:20] that's where my opinion where it's headed based on the companies that we're working with and we're seeing, and just the change and be able to adapt and adjust.

In this new world, you know, whether we've talked to any return [00:30:30] back to any normalcy or not is, is you've gotta be adaptable and adjustable. And, and I agree completely, you know, the dictatorial leaders of this is gone. You can't do that. You've got to be compassionate. And [00:30:40] what's going on in HR is a great go-between as you described in those types of situations.

But, but people are looking for people being real and, and, you know, we're all tired of someone has all the answers and [00:30:50] can fix everything in the bowl, in the China shop. That's not, you know, uh, companies don't go to more of a consultative approach and what's happening. What's not okay. Where were you trying to get to?

And just again, being real with the employees. [00:31:00] And I have several folks that we work with that have been through terrible layoff situations and, you know, their, their direct reports are laid off too. And they're calling and, you know, just speak volumes of how great, [00:31:10] although it's a terrible situation, you know, they were treated well.

And then also talked a lot of people that. Good gracious, you know, just horrible situations and how poorly they were treated. And, and as the old adage [00:31:20] goes, you know, we have a good experience to tell two people by experience, tell tan. So I think a lot of, a lot of companies have really been hurt by how they handle all this.

And it's a shame, but, but I agree [00:31:30] completely. We're going to see such a difference. Mindset and you've got to adapt and adjust them. You look back at a lot of these big companies are household names and I grew up that aren't even around because they didn't adapt. [00:31:40] And, uh, and then I couldn't agree with you more.

There's, there's so much things happening, but to me, and again, I'm so thankful I got an HR when I did. And so a part of it there's so much HR can [00:31:50] do at every level. To, to make an impact. And, and I think the smart companies are ones that are realizing that. And, and we're seeing that, you know, when they see HRO CPO roles [00:32:00] that we're filling and then working on is it's a different type of person.

They're looking for them 15 years ago. And, uh, you know, they, they want that well-rounded and touching [00:32:10] everything and involved in everything and really ingrained in the business. And, and a lot of our companies, you know, a lot of questions they ask our candidates, you know, you're in a business meeting.

What questions, what things are you asking or [00:32:20] what things are you bringing up that the business people hadn't even thought of? And so that's how ingrained some of these companies are looking for HR to be. And boy, that's a great situ in my [00:32:30] opinion is a great situation to be in as an HR. You don't do all the HR things, but boy, I'm part of the business.

They realize how valuable I am to the business. And, uh, the impact that can be [00:32:40] made by just bringing up ideas and looking at it from an HR perspective. And so to me, that's a real exciting to have those things. I mean, it's horrible to go through what we're going through to see that, but, uh, [00:32:50] but it's, it's great to see that companies are realizing, Hey, wait a second.

You know, where's HR, they need to be involved in this, you know, or if they're involved, Hey, we need to listen to what they're saying. And you know, you've got the ear of the people. 

[00:33:00] Matt: [00:33:00] I mean, if I could just summarize what you said, I think it's, you've hit on a couple of key points and I want to, I want to really drive this point home because as we discussed offline, [00:33:10] Ralph, a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are either business leaders who work in HR profession, or they certainly have a deep relationship with the HR profession because they're running small businesses or they're in [00:33:20] marketing.

And a lot of the things that. We're hearing. And a lot of things that we're seeing, whether it's in your line of sight in placing the next generation of [00:33:30] HR leaders or in my area, in terms of the CEOs and the boards that I talked to, you know, I say this with all degree of modesty, I've never had more phone calls or more [00:33:40] emails about coming to work for somebody else in the last nine months, because, and this is an a, and I want to, I want to state my limitations here, Ralph, you know, A [00:33:50] lot of the way I approached my time in the HR profession when I was in the corporate world, very much mirrors, what is now being sought after.

And at the time it [00:34:00] wasn't always welcomed and it wasn't always welcomed by other people in the HR profession. And it wasn't always welcomed by the organizations in which I worked in. [00:34:10] And specifically, I mean, things like. A deeper integration with the business. So I've had, you know, over the course of my time when I talked to people about like, you know, they say, Hey man, what's, [00:34:20] what's wrong with HR and how do we, how do we transform HR?

How do we make it better? I put it in really simple terms and I use the basic analogy of supply and demand in an economic context. [00:34:30] Demand is what companies want and what leaders want from HR. And, you know, this a better than most Ralph it's uneven. There are some organizations that want HR leaders that are, [00:34:40] you know, business partners, understand a P and L understand the deployment of technology data and bring a level of compassion and empathy and values to [00:34:50] their practice.

And then there are some organizations and leaders that want HR to play that traditional personnel role. In administration compliance, you know, [00:35:00] box-checking exercises. And in doing that, they set a tone for what is possible within the HR profession. And I've worked in some of those organizations on the latter hand where I can [00:35:10] try and innovate and bring forward business ideas and get told, no, go back into your lane.

Your job is to make sure we don't end up in court or on the front page of the paper, which mitigates the effect that I can have [00:35:20] as an HR professional. So that's, that's one part, the second part, because it's easy or very easy to paint organizations and leaders with a, with a brush, but we also have to look within the, in the mirror [00:35:30] ourselves.

A lot of the flack that I took early in my career, especially in HR, was from other HR professionals who, when I would raise ideas about using data and technology and the [00:35:40] agile methodologies on a more consistent basis would say things like, well, mat data is the domain of it. P and L is finances, responsibility.

We're responsible for [00:35:50] people. And we would, we had people in our profession even today who resisted measurement of our performance and we resisted, you know, using [00:36:00] technology as a conduit for relationships, um, and large part. In my opinion, because they didn't understand the power of what they were saying no to, or [00:36:10] because the tools themselves were uncomfortable to them.

And they were afraid of how they would show up in a world where technology and data and agile. Formed a part [00:36:20] of the ecosystem that was HR. And it's sad because, you know, I, I tell this story a few times when my mother won't get too mad, you want me to listen to my podcasts? But [00:36:30] you know, I remember having a chat with her 15 years ago, but her lamenting the loss of bank tellers and how, when we go to the bank, she used to appreciate speaking to a teller because she had a relationship [00:36:40] with the bank.

She wanted to speak to a teller. And for her, her finances were very personal. Transaction. So the idea of working through an ATM felt completely [00:36:50] foreign and detached from reality. If you, if you're exchanging money that requires people to look at each other in her values. And that was the way she was raised and that the way that she grew up [00:37:00] in the world now today, of course, like everybody else, she's online banking and using ATM's and she doesn't use cash really for anything.

But it's the same thing within HR, which was, we start talking about [00:37:10] things like internets and self-service with HRS systems chatbots. It was this well, well, if they put these things in place, what is HR going to do? [00:37:20] And that seems very impersonal and very cold. And if you will static, and the reality was for those of us who could see the future [00:37:30] coming, it was.

First off the expectations that the people who are making the decisions are often different than the people who are subject to those decisions. So [00:37:40] that's one part of it. Like I'm of an age now, Ralph, where I'm dangerously close to being out of touch myself. Getting close to my forties. It's like, I have my own perspective, but the generation [00:37:50] who's 20 years younger than me, has a very different view of the world than I did.

So for me to try and evangelize my view of the world for the next 20 years of my career would be unfair to the following generations. [00:38:00] But the second part was that. Specifically in this context that the definition of service changes. So when I would go to a bank 15 years ago, I would say, Oh, waiting in [00:38:10] line and waiting for a cashier or teller, sorry is just pain.

It's so inconvenient. I can't do this. During the outside of the normal business hours, to me, it was, it was not service. It was actually was [00:38:20] the opposite of service. So when things moved to online and moved into digital, I was like, Thankfully now I can, it's more flexible. It's more adaptable. And if I want to go to a bank to see a loan officer or [00:38:30] to see somebody opened up a different kind of account, I can choose to do that, but you're not forcing me into your funnel.

And in the same way that employees who are now in gen Z [00:38:40] and younger are saying things like. Thank you. There's a chat button. Now, if I want to ask questions about a policy or book time off of my schedule, or, you know, have an inquiry about a job, I can [00:38:50] deal with a technology interface and get immediate responses to things rather than sending an email to HR waiting two weeks for a response.

So. I think about the [00:39:00] profession going forward. And I think you've hit on a couple of key points that I do want to summarize, which is the, again, the ability to integrate fully within the business and to understand the business from the P and L perspective from the strategic perspective, from [00:39:10] the operational level, like be curious about your business and then also using technology and data as.

Compliments not competing factors, but compliments to [00:39:20] your practice so that you can segment the work within your practice. That is really best done by computers. Nobody that I talked to in HR joined this profession [00:39:30] to spend six hours a day behind the Excel spreadsheet. But a lot of people are doing that today because they don't use technology effectively.

If you use technology effectively, you can [00:39:40] allocate more of your time to the actual human. Relations that most of us joined this profession to want to get involved with, but there's this fear of loss and this fear of, if we bring in [00:39:50] technology, we're going to be replaced and. I think as we look to the future, Ralph, and I want to ask you this question.

Um, uh, the business is changing and we're talking a lot about what's changing in the, in the [00:40:00] short term, but as we look to the medium and longterm, I'm curious, how do you see companies evolving into the future? And secondly, how do you see HRS role [00:40:10] evolving into the future? 

Guest 1: [00:40:11] Well, I think, and that was one of the neat things.

When we first, you know, at first spoke, when he talked about technology and your vision, and it was just exciting because we're seeing that [00:40:20] more and more with the roles. And I think sadly, some HR folks, Oh my gosh, it's going to take away the personal touch or whatever. And, and I, and I, and I always laugh when I say, you know, we've lost.

The human and [00:40:30] human resources and so often, and, and, but, but again, the using technology wisely, I think is the key. And, and like you said, augmenting what we're doing to allow us to do [00:40:40] the things we need to do. And instead of automating a lot of basic tasks. And so that's been exciting to see, and I think we're going to continue to see more and more of that.

And I think the HR folks that are [00:40:50] embracing that and companies that are embracing HR more are going to realize, Hey, we do need to invest. These systems, because it will help about here, here, here. And, and so I think that's what we're going to cause I, I mean, I [00:41:00] think back to why first started again, just HR, myself, and then just focusing on placing HR professionals and where we are now, there is such a drastic difference.

And, uh, and so I think, you know, we're going to [00:41:10] continue to see more and more of technology. I think we're gonna see more and more systems that are more efficient than are more HR focused to really make a difference. But, but yeah, when I think about my kids and as I [00:41:20] get older, You know, you talk about the chat bots.

I want an instant response. Everyone's instant responses. So there's a lot of things that to them is a very personal touch. But to me [00:41:30] being older, wait a second. That's not personal. I want to see you face to face, you know, so it's adapting and adjusting to what people are looking for now, but it's, everybody's getting used to that and I can completely relate with my mom.

[00:41:40] And then. And the banking situation, you know, but, but, but I think we're going to see more and more of that. How do we use that technology? But, but I think the key thing is to keep that human touch in there [00:41:50] some way shape or form to keep the AI again, human, human resources. I think we're going to need that.

And, and, and, and so they, like, you can do the extremes and they're all, no, it's all gotta be manual. All gotta be this to keep HR [00:42:00] the way it is, or it's all gotta be automated. I think a good blend are going to be the most. There's going to be the most successful way to do that is to having the systems there.

That make the job [00:42:10] easier that make automate a lot of the tasks and allow you to do the things that you want to do and need to do as an HR professional. And certainly get involved more in the business, I think is [00:42:20] where we're going to continue to see. I mean, with shoot on your CO2, all these technologies every day, there's some new technology that's making this easier, this stuff we never thought we could automate before.

And, uh, and I think we're [00:42:30] going to continue to see a lot of that. I know a lot of AI stuff. Going on in HR, we're seeing recruiting and things like that, you know, but, and I've heard the story, Oh, we're going to automate HR. Well, you, you, you, in my [00:42:40] opinion, you can't, you're always going to have to have a human piece to it.

Uh, and I think the companies that realize that and figure out how to do that are going to be the ones that are most successful. And the HR leaders that embrace that technology [00:42:50] can, can do that. And then are willing to do that and make those differences, make the change. I think you're going to be the most successful.

So yeah, again, technology technology, technology, I think we're going to see a lot more and [00:43:00] more advances along those lines, making it easier to automate a lot of these tasks and make for more instantaneous responses and things like that. So it's been real exciting to see that and more and more, and it was kind of [00:43:10] sad.

It made me think probably about four years ago, a good friend of mine. Head of HR was interviewed with a company on his own. And then the CEO finally stopped him and said, Hey, we're just not ready for [00:43:20] your view of HR yet. And I'm like, how fad that they have such an old view and I'm dating myself, I call it John Wayne, HR, it all transactional and years and years old, [00:43:30] as opposed to making a real difference and being that business partner and companies need to see that need to embrace that.

And I think the HR leaders that realize that are doing that. Are the ones making a real [00:43:40] impact and making a real difference. And that's, what's super exciting is we work on these roles and talk to companies about their openings, you know, in these senior level HR leaders, you're number one, number two, number three, or whatever it [00:43:50] is, you know, how they view.

And I think about the conversation I have with them five, 10 years ago, and now what they're looking for and just how things have changed and, you know, one more [00:44:00] involvement and really learn it. I think that's super exciting because you as HR, instead of sit in your little corner, you know, playing a parties and keep people out of jail.

There's so many more things you can do to impact [00:44:10] the business and so exciting. It's exciting that we're seeing companies realize that. And I think that's the future that people don't approach it that way because the ones that it's all transactional and all [00:44:20] day to day, and I'm not, I'm going to be in my office.

If you need me, that's gone. I think we placed a HR, uh, manager slash director at a plant one time. And, [00:44:30] uh, and it was, it was so sad. The reason they called us was, you know, Ralph people don't even realize we have an HR person they're in their office all the time. You know, we play somebody around. If we love this person around the plant, they're out on the floor and they're getting to know [00:44:40] people are making an impact, they're in the business meetings, you know, and, and that's exactly what we're seeing across.

Or companies is people willing to step out of their comfort zone in HR and make a [00:44:50] difference to make an impact. And so anyway, long winded, sorry, but yeah, I think a lot of technology, a lot of changes there on a company's embracing technology, utilizing it and more encompassing technology, as opposed [00:45:00] to, you know, this variety, this for marketing this for HR, you know, how do we pull this together?

And I think we're going to see a lot of success in systems like that, that everybody can access. And we all see together [00:45:10] on the same page. 

Matt: [00:45:14] Because, I mean, I set, I set the tone for that. Don't worry, don't worry there. [00:45:20] And I think you're right. And I think, you know, if I could like pull up my crystal ball and look into the future, I look at, and again, this is, this, this comment is either going to age exceptionally well.

[00:45:30] Or we can look back at this or, and laugh at me. And I'm good for either scenario, but I think about the natural evolution from the industrial economy into a knowledge-based economy, where, before the value of [00:45:40] you and I, we measured by the amount of widgets that we would produce on the factory line. At the end of the day, very clear outputs were ultimately inputs in terms of us being present on the shop floor and [00:45:50] outputs, where, how we assess performance.

We're now in a knowledge-based economy where it's very difficult to tell if somebody is giving you their best effort. It's very difficult to measure creativity, [00:46:00] innovation, and teamwork in terms of the gap between what people are providing and what they could provide. Which ultimately goes back to HR as a profession.

I [00:46:10] think the profession evolves from administrators into true architects of organizational performance. And what that means is, is to create environments and that could be [00:46:20] physical. It could be digital, it could be cultural environments that encourage people to bring the best of themselves to work. And there's a clear, [00:46:30] scientific connection between engagement.

Intrinsic motivation and discretionary effort and in a world where I can't measure the amount of widgets that you produce, I have [00:46:40] to trust that if I create the right environment and sets you up for success, that you're going to give me your very best effort, because you want to, not because we're forcing you to, but because you want to.

[00:46:50] And in exchange, if we do that at scale, we will have a competitive advantage over the person down the street. Or across the world who does the same business, who doesn't get [00:47:00] that from their employees. And we're also in an era now, as we've said, a couple of times in this podcast where the incentives have shifted 20 years ago, it was about job security and [00:47:10] salary and pension and benefits.

And today. The new generations, it's about experiences, opportunity, the impact in the world. So you no longer can you throw around big dollar signs [00:47:20] to attract the best talent. You really have to do the work to make the environment. The type of environment we'll want to work in. And HR has a huge opportunity to help play a role in that.

And whether it's [00:47:30] technology and data. We're not asking HR people to become technologists and data scientists, or we're asking them to be able to think through the implications of these tools in [00:47:40] service to creating human centric, environments and human centric environments can mean, Hey, Matt, I don't want you to spend seven hours a day behind an Excel spreadsheet.

What I want you to do [00:47:50] is spend an hour a day behind your computer, but we've automated everything else in your life. Your practice so that you can spend five hours coaching blind managers and coaching leaders and spending time with employees [00:48:00] on the shop floor, because that's what you want to do. That's what we want you to do.

And ultimately that job as much more satisfying for everybody. And then you'll give your best to it versus the [00:48:10] drudgery of other things that could be you're responsible for. So, In a knowledge-based economy, our ability to architect those environments just becomes so much more critical. And I get really excited about that because [00:48:20] to your point, you have to, you have to now HR becomes true, you know, Paulie gods in that we're having to be a little bit of psychology, a little bit of technology, a little bit of engineering, a [00:48:30] little bit of finance, a little bit of marketing and blend all these things together and ultimately become performance coaches at the organizational level for people.

Um, but in a way that's very [00:48:40] business focused and. I get excited about the potential, because I do believe that we have so much more to give at the individual level at the team level, at the organizational level. [00:48:50] And I get excited about a future that includes us viewing people in a different way, because spoiler alert, I don't see the pace of change slowing down.

Right. We're not [00:49:00] going to go back to the way things were so we can try and insist upon the old ways of doing things. But I think the more that we do that, the more we're going to realize that we're actually doing ourselves a disservice. [00:49:10] So I get excited about the future, Ralph and I I'm, I'm eager to continue this conversation with you because I know that you are.

Consistently speaking with HR leaders and the organizations that hire [00:49:20] them. And you have a very much a line of sight to the changes that are occurring at the organizational level before they actually affect the organizations. Because we're talking [00:49:30] about your place in cultural architects, that the effect of their placements will not be felt in an organization for often 1224, 36 months after you [00:49:40] placed them.

You have a window into the future. 

Guest 1: [00:49:43] And that's been so neat to just talking to a lot of companies, you know, when they have these top roles, they reach out and, you know, we kind of go [00:49:50] through, you know, what do you need? What are you looking for? What have you had what's going on? And, and it's been really fun talking to them and saying, Hey, what if you look at it this way?

Or, Oh, I hadn't thought about that. Or what, if you look [00:50:00] for somebody that's got this kind of a background, maybe a little bit different, you know, those are a lot of different things that you can bring to bear that you may never have thought of. And so that's been super exciting. Show, [00:50:10] you know, here's the impact.

Somebody can have doing things you, you may never have thought of. And, uh, and then, like you said, what a tremendous impact on the business and, and, you know, amen what you said, [00:50:20] you know, what a, what an exciting thing to be a part of to do what you get to do to really. Impact the people and not spend your day looking at spreadsheets to do that.

Well, you know, what we [00:50:30] all love to do and get excited. And then of course that extrapolates out to the people coming in. They, they want that personal touch. They want someone who's going to help them and guide them in their career, give them advice, help them to do better at their job. And you take a [00:50:40] step back and look at, Oh my gosh, what an incredible impact that will have on the company, you know, when you're allowed to do those things and companies realize that.

And I think we're seeing more and more of that. I know I've seen more and more [00:50:50] over the years been doing this of companies, realizing that again, keep using the term. This is Barbara, but you know, we're really actively engaged HR leader across the company lines, uh, is huge. [00:51:00] And in a, and I agree completely, you know, there's so many folks that we've been able to work with and get into these roles in the company like Holy cow, you know, we hadn't thought about that.

Or, you know, we didn't even know we needed that or even [00:51:10] looked at it from that perspective or never had HR do that before. And, and that's real exciting. And so I think it's really neat. I think we're going to see more and more of that as companies realize. [00:51:20] You know, we need to integrate HR better and not just silo it out.

So it's just an impact they can have. 

Matt: [00:51:25] I knew this would happen. And it did. Sorry. [00:51:30] There'll be sorry. No, I've, I've so enjoyed the conversation and I look forward to as 2021 continues on that. We have a chance to continue this conversation, hoping to get you back on the podcast, to see how things are going with [00:51:40] you.

Um, I would encourage anybody listening to this show. If you're looking for. Uh, advice or looking for some perspective on where the HR profession is going. If you're an HR [00:51:50] leader at the senior levels, looking for a placement or an organization, looking to place someone at those senior levels, you know, as you can hear from this conversation, Ralph is you're somebody that has an understanding, a [00:52:00] deep, intimate knowledge of the profession and where it's going.

And, you know, I think it's a huge blessing in today's environment. Those people are rare. So thank you so much for taking the time to connect today and looking [00:52:10] forward to the rest of 2021. That sounds great. Thank 

Guest 1: [00:52:12] you so much, man. I really appreciate the opportunity

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