How to Develop Global Leaders - Rupert Brown

Rupert Brown is global business leader with a diverse background, including stints with enterprise giants Procter & Gamble and Maersk, and private equity backed businesses in the consumer goods and education sectors. Most recently Rupert was Chief People Officer at GEMS Education based in Dubai, the world's largest school operator, where he focussed on the talent, culture and processes required to grow into new markets. 

Rupert is passionate about the effects that globalization and digital transformation have on business, and in particular, how we will develop diverse leadership talent in the future of work. He’s spent the majority of his career living outside of his native UK, including assignments in Switzerland, Singapore (twice), Denmark, and the United Arab Emirates. 

We had a far-ranging discussion that included: the extent to which technology has really saved us during this pandemic, the seismic talent shift occurring as organizations see record levels of turnover, and us opining about redefining the corporate athlete for a post-pandemic world of work. 

It was a really enjoyable, timely discussion and we hope you enjoy it.

Rupert Brown

Rupert Brown is a truly global HR Leader with a diverse industry background including blue chips like Procter & Gamble and Maersk as well as private equity backed businesses in the consumer goods and education sectors. Most recently Rupert was Chief People Officer at GEMS Education based in Dubai, the world's largest school operator, where he focussed on the talent, culture and processes required to grow into new markets. 

Rupert is passionate about the effects that digital and globalisation have on business and in particular how we will develop diverse leadership talent in the future of work. He has seen first hand how these factors impact in different parts of the world having spent the majority of his career living outside of his native UK, including assignments in Switzerland, Singapore (twice), Denmark, and the United Arab Emirates in addition to London which is where we caught up with him. 

Rupert holds a Bachelor’s degree in Psychology from the University of Northumbria and a Master’s degree in Personnel Management and Industrial Relations from the University of Manchester, UK. Rupert is an accredited executive coach, a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Personnel & Development, and is currently studying to become a certified company director.

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Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Guest 1: [00:00:00] What I see from really strong school principals school leaders is that they are absolute [00:00:10] experts that sort of management by walking around. And it's a super visible leadership style that many of them. Demonstrate and it star [00:00:20] C you know, being at the front of school during school, drop-off obviously we're doing a lot of role modeling to their staff meeting with different cohorts of [00:00:30] students to really understand what's going on.

And as they were walking around, they were able to. Sort of set the bar, set the example, set culture as they went

[00:00:50] [00:00:40] Matt: [00:00:53] constraints, drive innovation. Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of thinking inside the box, [00:01:00] a show where we discuss complex issues related to work. And culture. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at bento, hr.com, [00:01:10] wherever you find your favorite podcasts by searching, thinking outside the box.

And now in virtual reality, each Thursday at 5:00 PM Pacific standard time in [00:01:20] Altspace VR. In today's episode, I chat with Rupert Brown, a London, UK based business executive with considerable international experience. [00:01:30] I originally met Rupert in Zurich, Switzerland attending an event put on by a good friend, Chris Rainey at HRD leaders.

And we became fast friends, swapping stories from [00:01:40] our time working in global enterprises. And we found a lot of common ground than our values. We've stayed in touch ever since and reconnected shortly after Rupert's [00:01:50] returned to the UK from Dubai, where he, along with his family had been based as he'd been working as the head of HR for gems education, one of the world's [00:02:00] oldest and largest K to 12 private education providers.

And today we sat down to discuss a number of things, including the importance of developing [00:02:10] global leaders. And in particular, how international assignments are so much more than an accelerator or developmental, but they open your mind [00:02:20] to globalization and new cultures and the benefits of diversity firsthand and Rupert shared his fear that.

If at a post COVID world, we ended up [00:02:30] traveling less and meeting fewer people different to ourselves that some of the skills we've gained as a society. And the understanding we've been able to build will perhaps go in reverse. [00:02:40] So we had a really cool chat about that. We went into a conversation around innovation and the importance of innovation, particularly now in enterprise companies.

And the [00:02:50] extent to which technology has really saved us during the pandemic though, we also discuss it's massive shortcomings. And in what will undoubtedly be a recurring [00:03:00] theme in future podcasts, Rupert and I discuss the modern day corporate athlete, drawing parallels between enterprise organizations and sports teams with a particular [00:03:10] emphasis on how they support rehabilitate and ensure connectedness with their injured players.

It was a really great conversation and I so enjoy Rupert's time. [00:03:20] So without further ado, Robert Brown. Hello, Robert, how are you doing today? 

Guest 1: [00:03:25] Hi, Matt. I'm really well. Thanks. It's a pleasure to be here with 

Matt: [00:03:28] you. I'm looking forward to this conversation. [00:03:30] You and I originally met. I think it was in of all places, Zurich, Switzerland.

Well, now that's right. Two or three years ago now it's been a, it's been an interesting journey. And you know, [00:03:40] I was drawn to you at that time because among your many accomplishments, you are a global leader in every sense of the word. So I [00:03:50] think for those who may not know Rupert Brown, perhaps give us a brief introduction on who you are and what you're all about.

Guest 1: [00:03:55] Oh, thank you. Thank you, Matt. That's right. We last saw each other in the group little days when [00:04:00] you could actually travel and do networking and catch up with people in exotic locations. And it was, it was Zurich where, where you and I met. And I was very taken [00:04:10] by, you know, your innovative and proactive, uh, style and the fact that you were in earlier.

Doctor. It's a lot of technologies and whenever we talk, uh, I'm always encouraged, infused [00:04:20] and take something away from, from it. My background is a global HR leader. I'm currently speaking to you from my native [00:04:30] England, from London. Uh, but actually I've spent a good 15 years of my career living outside of the UK doing, uh, various, uh, international [00:04:40] global HR roles.

Um, so most recently I was chief people officer for gems education based in Dubai, uh, United Arab Emirates, which [00:04:50] is the world's largest operator of, uh, K-12 schools in the world. Um, so it's roughly 80 schools and 11 countries, uh, and a [00:05:00] really large. A purpose-driven organization. Prior to that, I spent five years with AP Moller Maersk, the Danish shipping [00:05:10] giant, uh, originally joining them actually in Singapore and, uh, w where I've actually lived twice.

Both my children were born in Singapore. So it was a very special [00:05:20] place for us as a family before moving to Denmark, to Copenhagen, to the headquarters of the most organization. And prior to, uh, uh, most [00:05:30] guy had a decade in consumer goods, uh, with Gillette Proctor and gamble, which really was, was where the international journey began for me [00:05:40] very early in my sort of twenties.

I always aspire to have an international career. I think it. It, it stems from having a, a Swedish mother, an [00:05:50] English father and some Italian heritage, uh, on my grandmother's side, and always aspire to, you know, live and work overseas. And with P and G I got the [00:06:00] opportunity to go to Switzerland. Uh, it was Geneva, not Zurich, uh, that time, uh, and then out to Singapore for the first time, which was.

Truly remarkable, uh, you know, [00:06:10] experience, uh, for us and, uh, in between those sort of large chunks in the resume, I've also done some private equity work in the consumer education [00:06:20] sectors, um, in Singapore, uh, the UK and in the United Arab Emirates. And you know, it, it, it all sounds like it's a lot of [00:06:30] different.

Locations, uh, on my resume, but actually there's a lot of sort of continuity in there because in an HR career, you essentially are looking [00:06:40] for interesting business issues where people really do make the difference as businesses are trying to grow and transform and, uh, you know, essentially adjusts to [00:06:50] everything that's thrown at them.

And, uh, all those sectors have, have given. Um, lots and lots of sort of HR challenges and growth opportunities for [00:07:00] me as an individual. So, yeah, but that in a nutshell is, uh, it is what brings me to talking to you today from 

Matt: [00:07:06] one. Yeah. Well, in, in your career, in addition to it being [00:07:10] fascinating is an interesting microcosm for what's happening on the broader global stage.

And what I mean by that, Roberta is of course we were moving down a path of globalization for many [00:07:20] decades, organizations and professionals like yourself, where we coming increasingly. Global oriented. And I, you know, myself did a, an MBA program that included Latin America in that, and [00:07:30] there was this real push to understand the four corners of this planet in service to developing truly global solutions.

And during the course of this [00:07:40] pandemic, what's happened is the complete inverse we've of course instituted pretty significant lockdowns. And the majority of jurisdictions around the world, a lot of people have returned back to their [00:07:50] home countries. And as we go forward, it's still not yet clear on what the future will hold for us.

If we will move back down the path of globalization or if [00:08:00] nationalism will rise in its absence. Um, you know, I, I'm curious about your perspective, um, you know, as you consider kind of broader macro economics, um, I'm [00:08:10] curious about your thoughts around globalization and how you've seen it evolve during the course of the pandemic.

Guest 1: [00:08:15] Yeah, it's a great question, Matt. I mean, I think like you, I was also fueled by [00:08:20] globalization as sort of as a macro theme and underpinned my international career. So I, you know, I got a chance to explore Europe, the middle [00:08:30] East and Asia, uh, in detail by living and working there and could really sort of see that globalization story unfold and develop.

And, and actually the more [00:08:40] I learned, the more I realized. Just just how phenomenal, uh, it was. And I'm actually working for a business like, like Musk really brings it home because you know, [00:08:50] the transport and logistics industry, it really does facilitate global trade. And actually we've come to, uh, make so many [00:09:00] assumptions about global trade and about the fact that, you know, the very devices that you and I are talking on today, the clothes that we're wearing, the food that we've eaten today, the, the [00:09:10] supply chain and the, the, the routes that those products have taken is just mindblowing.

And most people are. Blissfully unaware of just how complex a lot of the products and [00:09:20] services are that we, you know, we consume happily today. Okay. Um, and in a way it's quite sad to see, you know, we always assume borders were [00:09:30] open or opening. And as you say, right now, it feels very much like we are become very national, uh, in our sort of mindsets.

Um, on the upside, [00:09:40] we used to think that if the world needed saving, it needed saving on the other side of the world. But actually I think we've come to realize there's an awful lot of good work that can be done on our doorsteps, [00:09:50] uh, with our neighbors. And that's what you know, that is what a pandemic does.

It sort of brings it home to you, very close to home, very locally to you, which is no bad thing at all. I, I do worry [00:10:00] though that one of the best things I think I have had from an international career is a firsthand curiosity and [00:10:10] appreciation for different cultures, different religions, different worldviews, uh, different economists.

You know, globalization does not mean the same thing for [00:10:20] every, uh, country will be all business around the world. And right now, what we need more than ever is to be able to sort of bridge different worldviews different [00:10:30] perspectives. Uh, if we're going to be able to lead globally, but also lead inclusively, we need more and more people who are open, opening up to other people.

[00:10:40] And suddenly we don't tend to do that with our neighbors. So it's funny how you do tend to get yeah. Experience when you go further a field and you [00:10:50] explore a new culture or a new religion. Uh, and often it does take a trip. It takes a, it takes, uh, a business meeting on the other side of the world for you to see something firsthand and appreciate it.

[00:11:00] It's kind of ironic. Cause we all live in very multi-ethnic multicultural, diverse locations. You know, London couldn't be a more diverse city yet. You're much more [00:11:10] likely to get an insight about the different religions that are surrounding you by actually visiting those countries firsthand. And yeah, I I've been an [00:11:20] international person 15 years.

I also know that there is a trade off with living in a different country that is not essentially not your [00:11:30] own. And it's not always, it's not all upsides, you know, not only do you make trade offs about proximity to family. But you also put yourself [00:11:40] through an awful lot of, uh, outside of your comfort zone, learning experiences, some go, well, some don't always go so well when you dropped into, uh, you know, a new culture [00:11:50] that there's challenges around bringing up, raising children in a, in a third culture, you know, how do you actually ground the children with children?

What are their values? What's their [00:12:00] identity. And so on. And whatever sort of state globalization is at today, um, because of, you know, different political agendas or [00:12:10] just the sort of, sort of the state borders generally in a way, the globalization, uh, you know, that, that train's already left. We are already needing to [00:12:20] be running global organizations with global leaders.

And one of the challenges. At the moment is you have people who are living in a different location on the world. Perhaps they're [00:12:30] thinking that I haven't been able to see their family for 18 months. They're wondering whether in some cases it's a smart and sustainable thing to do. And [00:12:40] that concerns me because there's such a huge development that comes from, uh, leaders taking on these assignments in different cultures, as [00:12:50] well as obviously filling.

Talent gaps. You know, I mean, the reason why people tend to go and work overseas is because there is work to be done. Companies benefit from getting that [00:13:00] work done and leaders benefit from. Developing a diverse point of view. No, we know it's not the only way to build diverse leadership and, [00:13:10] uh, to build great leaders, but it certainly is, uh, an accelerated way of doing that.

So th these, these are challenging times and I, I hope that people who are [00:13:20] considering their future, who might be living overseas right now, uh, if you like to overreact, you know, it's kind of like that. Th this too will pass in [00:13:30] some way, shape or form, and we will continue running complex global supply chains and we will need the right leadership to be able to do that.

Matt: [00:13:39] Yeah. I think you've [00:13:40] raised a number of really valid and interesting points. I think first and foremost, I think you're right. I think the train has very much left the station on globalization and whether we want to admit it or not, we [00:13:50] are dependent on supply chains to provide many of the, you know, You know, conveniences that we enjoy on a day-to-day basis.

And if we were to shut down [00:14:00] international trade routes and we were to regress in that regard, I think that the impact would be felt quite quickly and quite direly in a lot of jurisdictions. Um, you know, uh, whether it's food, [00:14:10] whether it's goods and services, we have developed such an infrastructure around that path that I think you're right.

They were going in that direction. Uh, you've also raised an interesting point around. That the [00:14:20] pandemic has provided an opportunity for us to look if you will in work. Um, I think about the shortening, the lens to, or narrowing the lens, if you will, into. What's happening [00:14:30] in our backyard. And, you know, certainly I live in a beautiful city, Vancouver, Canada, but we are not without our own challenges around things like, uh, an opioid issue and poverty.

And there are a [00:14:40] number of things that can be better here. Um, and the opportunity for us to address those things, social at our home certainly is something that I, I see more evidence of, of late [00:14:50] then at the same time, there are challenges elsewhere in the planet. And, you know, you referenced that as well.

And I think when I, when I look at. Globalization an in a global [00:15:00] context, I think you raise an interesting point insofar as we have never been more connected digitally, we have access to [00:15:10] information and experiences remotely that we've never had before. And to your point, I can learn about different cultures and religions and, and, um, you know, at different [00:15:20] lifestyles.

Sitting here in my apartment in Vancouver, the ultimately the real learning comes through experience and most of us are experiential learners [00:15:30] naturally. So having an opportunity to spend time and immerse yourself in a different culture, in different location. You know, one of the things you and I discussed early when we got to know [00:15:40] each other was I did an MBA program in Latin America.

And the, my experiences in Brazil and in Mexico were absolutely transformative, not only in my career, but in my [00:15:50] life and, and my experiences in Brazil in particular. We're one of the catalysts for me to ultimately leave the corporate world and launch my own business as a desire to have a bigger impact.

[00:16:00] And, you know, I am optimistic that when we return to some form of normalcy, that we will have a better sense of. Ourselves as a [00:16:10] culture that we will strike a balance between globalization and then to more nationalism. And ultimately that I agree with you. We, we've never more than [00:16:20] now needed a greater understanding of each other.

Um, more empathy for each other, and that's going to come from people having experiences. There's just, you know, whether [00:16:30] we talk about, I know you, you know, with your background in education, there's just, there's something different about reading a textbook. Or being talking to somebody face to face in their own environment.

I think that applies as [00:16:40] well to the concept of, of globalization and an understanding culture and diversity more broadly. 

Guest 1: [00:16:45] Yeah, absolutely. Right. I mean, you know, it's, it's funny. I was, I was reflecting on, uh, [00:16:50] some unconscious bias training that we were running in a, in a previous organization and, you know, sometimes they can be, they can be challenging sessions, right.

To try and land those in, in the right way. So you, you can sort of [00:17:00] move, move the audience in the right direction. But one of my favorites. Quotes or takeaways from that training was about trying to find new people to [00:17:10] disagree with. And the concept here is that if you always surround yourself with people that tend to agree with you, you're not singularly getting very [00:17:20] far in terms of, you know, finding it.

But for finding different people or breaking down stereotypes. But if you go and find somebody who is genuinely, if you let representative of a [00:17:30] group, you only have to stereotype, but don't have a lot of experience off and then getting into dialogue at a level, not a superficial level, but at a level deep enough [00:17:40] for you to challenge some of your assumptions and stereotypes, you really do surprise yourself.

And when you've got that data point and that says. Okay. I may have [00:17:50] this. I may have this bias. I have this assumption by all. So now I have this alternative data point, which is somebody from that group who holds a very different point of view. And I am [00:18:00] pleasantly surprised by what I've learned, that then all of a sudden, you are so much.

Further down the path of being able to be a sort of self-aware inclusive [00:18:10] leader. And I just think you get those experiences much more, uh, you know, that how to get through zoom. Let's be honest because you have to be intentional and deliberate [00:18:20] when you reach out to somebody who's already in your network, which tends to suggest that actually you already have an awful lot in common.

So I, you know, I, I personally, I, I I'm, I missing. [00:18:30] Being in places like the middle East, uh, during Ramadan, uh, right now where you can get a firsthand experience of [00:18:40] exactly, you know, a different person's perspective, one that you wouldn't get to appreciate, uh, if you were somewhere else or back home, 

Matt: [00:18:46] it's completely correct.

And you raise an [00:18:50] interesting point around communication because, you know, in a pre pandemic context, a lot of communication communication that we enjoyed was very spontaneous. [00:19:00] And in the context of organizations, which is the lens in which you and I view enterprise most, you know, from a, from an HR perspective, the idea of organic [00:19:10] conversation, organic discussion was really key that, that informal communication economy, if you will, inside of organizations, was key from a knowledge transfer perspective, from a team building [00:19:20] perspective from a.

Influence and alignment perspective. And we've lost a lot of that in the pandemic. As we've had to shift to zoom as the predominant channel or [00:19:30] WebEx or teams or Google Hangouts, whatever your preferred digital medium, we've had to increase the level of intentionality around conversations. You know, people are booking time in each other's [00:19:40] calendars and they're scheduling discussions.

And that occurred of course before, but what we've lost is this informality of communication and it poses it. It brings up an interesting conversation around [00:19:50] hybrid work. Um, and I know that you've worked in organizations that are global in nature and that remote team. So you've been working in a hybrid environment, Rupert for, you know, several decades.

And you have a deeper [00:20:00] understanding of the inherent challenges of leading remote teams and, and working in global cultures and contexts. And. No, as we consider the future of organizations [00:20:10] and, and hyper work in particular, you know, I I'm struck with a couple of different thoughts. So I think first off technology specifically has done us a lot of good during the pandemic, [00:20:20] and it's really allowed organizations to continue and endure and certainly innovate.

And it has at the same time, some pretty significant shortcomings. Uh, and I'm just curious [00:20:30] about your thoughts around hybrid work and technology in particular and how you see it in the context of the pandemic. Yeah, absolutely. 

Guest 1: [00:20:37] Right. I, you know, hype [00:20:40] hybrid is difficult. They are working on it. And when everybody's in the office where everybody's out of the office in many respects, it's kind of easier to facilitate some [00:20:50] discussions when you have a bit of a mix and people are, you know, some people are in, some people are around the boardroom.

Some people are dialing in from other places. Uh, [00:21:00] It's really, it can be really challenging. I hate to sort of keep tabs on where are people? So how do I, how do I benefit from proximity when that is possible? Uh, versus when is it not, [00:21:10] but, you know, do you remember how, how difficult it was when you were the one who was dialing into the conference call?

Everybody else was in the room, but you're the one dialing in. I need you, [00:21:20] you just cannot follow the conversation. It's a migraine waiting to happen. And the technology has moved on an awful long way, but again, it. It will need to move on [00:21:30] a lot further. And I think what I, what I really enjoyed in working in global teams was the time that we did spend together co located, [00:21:40] whether that be on a quarterly basis or half yearly basis, that time was so incredibly valuable.

Not just to be able to get through operational agenda items or how around the [00:21:50] business and the work, but you know, also about building relationships, building an understanding, doing a lot of the work, the hard yards that we would do on, [00:22:00] um, essentially team coaching team building, and trying to create something rapidly from a group of strangers who, uh, working, uh, around the [00:22:10] world.

Now you can, of course you can facilitate similar things virtually, but it's, uh, it's not as quick. It's not as easy and we'll [00:22:20] just have to see, we'll just have to see what does work and how do we make the most of our, our limited time when we can get together? Uh, there, there's no doubt that the technology [00:22:30] is.

Improving. I was a there's also, you know, uh, it does still come back to the skill of the facilitator, which, you know, it's funny. I was pleasantly [00:22:40] surprised recently I attended a, uh, a leadership course that was delivered remotely. And I had, I had some reservations about, uh, about sort of how deep it would be, [00:22:50] how good it would be.

And I was really, really impressed. The facilitator was clearly a brilliant. You know, teacher coach [00:23:00] and in the, in the real classroom, but he'd also completely mastered the technology. And not only was he able to switch functionality really, really quick, but he was [00:23:10] essentially doing the chalk and talk approach to delivery, uh, through an online method.

It was brilliant. I was, I was really relieved and blown away that [00:23:20] it's not just technology. There is still an awful, there's a big skill component here to being able to do this well. Uh, and that as you know, as, as a, as a teacher, as a [00:23:30] trainer, as a coach, there's a, there's a lot that we can learn to make this a successful it's 

Matt: [00:23:34] possible that you're spot on.

And I think we have a tendency to point to the technology and demonize it, and [00:23:40] a lot of cases and really. The technology is meant to serve as a tool and that humans have a significant role to play in this transition. And it poses a number of [00:23:50] questions because I think you and I would both would agree.

Most organizations were not set up for a hybrid environment prior to the pandemic, and they've had to shift their strategies and their [00:24:00] operations and their ways of working to reflect this. But in doing so it's illuminated some shortcomings in organizations around skills and [00:24:10] knowledge. Um, you know, I had somebody in, in a session recently and I'll mention them, if you weren't a good leader before the pandemic, you're certainly not a lot better now.

Um, you know, it's, uh, There are [00:24:20] challenges and organizations, and there's also a necessity for us to evaluate everything from the structure in which we operate our businesses. I think about organizational [00:24:30] design. Um, there's the opportunity to assess the, the ways of working in this, the processes that underpin our organization, uh, and each of those things [00:24:40] require our review or an audit or an assessment in a hybrid world.

Because if we assume that we have to develop. A way of working that suits people that are co [00:24:50] located that are operating independently and remotely, or a combination of the two, we're going to have to look at things a little bit differently. Yeah, I think you're 

Guest 1: [00:24:58] right. And in many [00:25:00] ways it puts a greater emphasis and focus on, on the line managers.

You know, responsibility, uh, not just for getting work done, but also for, uh, being a, you [00:25:10] know, a good listener, a good coach being really mindful of the wellbeing of their team, because I guess what's happened as we've gone virtual is that the [00:25:20] direct work teams are probably spending an awful lot more time together.

They they're getting stronger, but the links across the silos, the functions, the virtual teams, they are really, really weak. [00:25:30] Uh, and that's, uh, that's a real risk because often in organizations, your role models, the people that you go to for, uh, you [00:25:40] know, coaching and mentoring and sponsorship, they're not necessarily in your direct line of command that perhaps their peers of your manager or, or elsewhere in the organization, people you've seen [00:25:50] and they've impressed you.

And there's just something that, you know, you, you want to sort of jump on their coattails and that's really hard. That's really hard to deliver, uh, or do if you're not [00:26:00] sort of coming into contact with people almost by accident. So that is something that does need to be, uh, you know, uh, considered and needs to be looked at.

And, and I guess it goes back in [00:26:10] HR, we've always focused on the capability of line management. You know, that's sort of a little bit like our, our weakest link has always been our weakest line manager in the delivery. Uh, you know, [00:26:20] engagement and, uh, and, and great leadership. Uh, and so it will continue, but it's, uh, it's going to pose some challenges for those that are [00:26:30] early in their career, looking for that sort of support, uh, you know, an inspiration.

Matt: [00:26:37] Yes one it's Matt here, and I hope you're [00:26:40] enjoying today's discussion before we continue. I wanted to make you aware of our latest creative project, HR in VR, every Thursday at [00:26:50] 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time, all connect with technology pioneers, business executives from the world's most iconic brands and industry thought leaders to discuss the [00:27:00] future of immersive technologies like virtual reality.

And their impact on future workplaces. In partnership with Microsoft we're broadcasting each [00:27:10] episode on LinkedIn live and in front of a live studio audience in Altspace. Joining is easy for LinkedIn users. Simply follow my account, [00:27:20] Matt in VR and stay tuned Thursdays at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time for the LinkedIn live stream.

Or for a truly immersive live [00:27:30] experience, visit alt vr.com to download Altspace on your Mac, PC or VR headset, and join us live in our [00:27:40] studio audience. There you'll have a chance to ask questions, meet me and our incredible guests and connect with others from the comfort of your own home. [00:27:50] This is the future folks.

And I hope to be part of it. And I'll link the details for HR in VR, along with all other relevant information in the show [00:28:00] notes of this podcast. And now back to our discussion,

Guest 1: [00:28:07] I was thinking. [00:28:10] Experience I've had in my life. That's anything remotely similar to the pandemic that we're experiencing now was in a previous organization. When we, we suffered [00:28:20] from a cyber attack back, it was the, you remember the not pettier cyber attack that hit the Ukraine and it impacted a number of businesses, uh, as a result of that.

[00:28:30] And literally overnight within the day we were, we, you know, all systems where we've gone, uh, in a global organization, relying on data and [00:28:40] communication we had, we were left with, with WhatsApp, but that was all we have. And it was. It was the most profound and scary time because [00:28:50] all of a sudden you are out of control.

You have no control, you couldn't influence a control, anything. And two things sort of came from this one was that it allowed us to really [00:29:00] think carefully about what are our technology priorities and be able to sort of, it was a catalyst actually for digital transformation in the long run, having to rebuild your it [00:29:10] infrastructure, uh, at a cost of course, but in the longterm that, that is positive.

But in the short term, We were left with no option, but to trust and empower [00:29:20] local leadership, you know, it was kind of like, I can't be there to help you. So you get, you're going to have to make the best call. You can put the information you have [00:29:30] to hand. Now, if you want to bounce an idea off somebody, uh, you know, I'll be there for you.

Uh, I can talk it through, but I can't see [00:29:40] what you're doing. I don't have the data. I can't help him. And he respects and. A very strange thing happened in that during that period of time, the [00:29:50] organization out in the, you know, in, in the countries in the region, got a massive kick out of being trusted, out of being empowered, uh, out of being able to essentially [00:30:00] do the right thing.

And, and it was a great organization. We very strong culture and values and that, that worked out just fine in many respects. And of course, [00:30:10] you know, when the systems came back online and, uh, Uh, data and performance management started to flow back to head office. You can imagine that the sort of the power imbalance starts to level out once again and [00:30:20] before, you know, it you're, you're, you're running in a big global matrix organization in a way that's where we are now.

Right. So it's never been more important. Yeah. I have really strong [00:30:30] line management and leadership and empathetic leadership. That's built to help people get through the pandemic and tend to come 

Matt: [00:30:37] up to the side. And [00:30:40] your assumptions and your assessment around the state of organizations, especially large organizations is, is spot on.

You know, one of the benefits that we had during the pandemic was because we [00:30:50] run a consulting business. And because we work primarily in the spaces of digital transformation, we looked a lot to avatars around the corporate world and [00:31:00] we're asking ourselves, what are certain people doing? And yeah. First in 2020, it was, how are they experiencing the pandemic?

One of the, and then as the year went on and into 2021, it's what have they learned [00:31:10] that we can apply to our own practice also to support the clients that we work with. And one of the companies we looked at early on was Google, and we did so with an [00:31:20] understanding of a few key attributes first, um, Google in a lot of cases is a best case scenario.

And I said that because. They're a digitally native organization. They [00:31:30] experienced financial tailwinds during the pandemic, so they saw their revenue increase. And at the same time, um, They as an organization have [00:31:40] the, one of the more sophisticated, if not the most sophisticated methods of measuring employee sentiment.

So from a, from a data perspective, from a, from an evaluation perspective, [00:31:50] it gave us an interesting opportunity to say, okay, well, if here's Google as an archetype, How are they performing in the pandemic? And you know, what, what you just mentioned around the idea of [00:32:00] deeper relationships within working groups and within teams and challenges, working across teams.

It's exactly what materialized that the [00:32:10] relationships with the line manager. Where the Y manager was, was skilled and talented and supported, and their teams really increased in terms of the pandemic. There was much more communication. There was much [00:32:20] more involvement on a day to day basis. There was much more one-on-ones and there was more touch points with particular employees.

Um, but then the teams working together struggled and in [00:32:30] particular, two areas of the business at Google really did struggle and they saw this a significant drop in productivity across cross-functional teams. [00:32:40] And people that were new in the organization, either new in role or new to the organization in its entirety.

And they figured that out when they stripped away all of the sentiment and the stripped away, all [00:32:50] the data points, what they found was through a combination of organizational network analysis and employee sentiment analysis was that communication [00:33:00] precipitously dropped. During the time of the pandemic between teams, that the informal economy that I mentioned that occurs in organizations that proverbial water cooler, the hallway chats, the coffee [00:33:10] line conversations, they all went away.

What team meetings replaced them. And if you didn't intentionally put into practice team meetings, um, as a [00:33:20] cross-functional team meetings, as part of your daily practice, you started to lose connection with other parts of the business and. They also found that there was a large percentage of their [00:33:30] business practices and internal knowledge that was very institutional, but not documented anywhere.

So it was incumbent upon the more senior and experience Google [00:33:40] employees to pass the information onto the newer employees, again, through these more informal mentoring and coaching relationships and that when they didn't have that. Benefit that, especially the [00:33:50] new employees who didn't have a social network within the organization and didn't have access to the informal information because of tenure really struggled to drive productivity during the [00:34:00] pandemic.

So over the course of 2020, they closed a lot of these gaps. They built cross-functional working teams, they documented more processes and got clear on what they were doing. And, you know, a lot of [00:34:10] organizations that I've talked to. Since then have expressed a similar type of challenge during the course of the pandemic, albeit to varying degrees.

Um, and as [00:34:20] we've moved forward as an organization, I'll, I'll be honest. I mean, one of the things that you and I have in common is that prior to launching bento HR, I led a lot of transformational change initiatives, whether that [00:34:30] be M and a projects, larger restructuring projects, digital transformation projects, and.

No, I got very good by practice and trial and [00:34:40] error and lots of mentorship at being able to lead cross-functional teams. The only be honest first when I started, I was actually pretty terrible at it because I looked at the work as a finite [00:34:50] piece of responsibility and it was about. Timelines. And it was about budget.

And as I spent more time in those projects and had really good leadership and mentorship around me, I realized that it was [00:35:00] really a relationship oriented activity and that if I built really strong relationships cross-functionally and really enforced and, and embraced principles of change management, [00:35:10] that.

Projects would ultimately become more successful. And it's something that I carried on to my consulting practice, but we also struggled at bento HR because as clients shifted to hybrid [00:35:20] work and into remote work, we had to work with businesses in a way that was remote. And I had never had to lead transformational projects on a consistent basis in a remote setting [00:35:30] where I'm having to book.

In meetings with different teams across the organization where we don't have the benefit of going into the office and building relationships and having those after hours [00:35:40] conversations and those, those coffee chats. So although we were a consultancy. We experienced many of the same challenges that organizations have faced internally in terms of how they lead through [00:35:50] change.

And, and it was a significant opportunity for us to even adjust our own approach and how we look at change, both for organizations, but also internally. And. [00:36:00] I think that, uh, you know, I share all that because I think that as we consider the path forward in this hybrid world of work, all of us, whether it's consultancies or organizations, whether [00:36:10] you're in HR or finance or it or marketing, we're going to have to add new skills and tools into our proverbial toolbox.

Because the reality is, is that we're all going to be [00:36:20] leading hybrid work assignments in the future. We're all going to be managing remote teams in the future. And we're all going to be tasked with leading change and or implementing change. In a dispersed way in the [00:36:30] future and the best way to go about learning those skills, of course, as experience and in doing so we have to expect there'll be bumps along the road.

So [00:36:40] I just, I'm very curious to see how things play out in the coming months, 1224 months, because I think we're going to have organizations that over the course of the last year, [00:36:50] probably. Decelerated the rate of change internally in service to establishing more of a firm infrastructure for hybrid work, but as they pick the pace back up again, and as business [00:37:00] pressures inevitably kind of creep in, they're going to have to get back to a pace of change, which more closely mirrors or represents what they had prior to the pandemic.

And [00:37:10] that's going to be difficult if we haven't learned something from this period of time. 

Guest 1: [00:37:14] Yeah. I mean, you might, you're covering a lot of points there. And, um, I think th the, the, the [00:37:20] research from Google, the, that the piece around the network analysis is very interesting. I wonder whether, you know, if in future we need to be more deliberate and mindful [00:37:30] about assembling.

These cross-functional teams deliberately to give people the exposure, uh, you know, more broadly, especially [00:37:40] if it's one thing, when you already have relationships, you then go virtual or hybrid, and then you try and lead change. That's, that's easy in many respects, but joining an organization [00:37:50] straight off the bat with no relationships and then trying to drive change, we're going to have to make sure that we deliberately expose people in a, in a way.

So they do build understanding and [00:38:00] network and influence. And then they are successful, you know, were pretty dangerous. I'm ready because management leadership has never been more [00:38:10] distant from the frontline of their organizations. And we often talk about this sort of, you know, is it virtual? Is it hybrid?

What is it? But that's because we're very [00:38:20] fortunate to even have a, you know, have a choice in the matter. Uh, the truth is there's still an awful lot of jobs in, in, in companies that need to be done with where the work is out [00:38:30] at the front line. And there's a massive risk that we just created a, another variable as to whether or not, you know, how, how sort of [00:38:40] collective an organization is.

Uh, and if leadership allows itself to get disconnected from the frontline, then it's going to become even harder to drive [00:38:50] change. You know, you, you might ask me. Well, what are some of my takeaways from working in the education space? And one of the things that really struck me was that I guess I've always [00:39:00] had a cool sort of model of what good leadership looks like and what I see from really strong school principals, school leaders.

[00:39:10] Is that they are absolute experts that sort of management by walking around. And it's a super visible leadership style that [00:39:20] many of them demonstrate very, very visible to all of their stakeholders. And it starts, you know, being at the front of school during school, drop-off being able to [00:39:30] greet. Students and parents by name, obviously we're doing a lot of role modeling to their staff meeting with different cohorts of students to [00:39:40] really understand what's going on.

And they're very, very much stay calm. You know, they're, they're the good ones that I saw were very visible stakeholder sort of lead [00:39:50] leaders. And as they were walking around, they were able to sort of set the bar, set the example, set culture, uh, as they went now, [00:40:00] When you have such a visible leadership style, it can make managing change super, super difficult, because all of a sudden, everybody knows who you are.

Everybody has a question or feedback [00:40:10] for you. And in many respects, the school leaders and teachers have had the most. Target, you know, 12, uh, 12 months or so [00:40:20] as that direction has been changed. So regularly on such fundamental issues, such as you know, who can come to school, how do we do that? Are we doing exams?

How do we do [00:40:30] that? And one of the things that they've been able to do, I think. Really really well is to be agile and to adapt even when they don't necessarily understand why something [00:40:40] is being changed. And we saw that in the pandemic, every country, every state was essentially reacting differently. So you saw that no, [00:40:50] two, no two jurisdictions had the same approach to what to do with kids in school, you know, as a result of COVID, which tells you that they're not responding to fact they're responding to the [00:41:00] situation and really just trying to find a way through the situation and in many respects, what.

What they have is a leadership [00:41:10] model, but is very successful for, you know, driving engagement, cheering these super uncertain times. And [00:41:20] I used to call it managing by walking around. That's what we used to call it. I'm not sure who to credit with that, that phrase, but in many respects, I think a lot of leaders need to try and [00:41:30] somehow.

Get back to that, you know, it's about being visible. It's about meeting people, uh, and being able to sort of drive change, build culture, build engagement, [00:41:40] wherever possible, and trying to, rather than being visible to stakeholders, such as investors and the board is being visible to your organization. And I was very [00:41:50] inspired by what I saw th th th the good school leaders have done an amazing job in, uh, during this pandemic of really showing us what visible leadership looks like.

Well on 

[00:42:00] Matt: [00:41:59] leadership is going to become a significant topic in the years to come. Because as we've expressed a number of times in this conversation, it's going to have to evolve out of [00:42:10] necessity. And, you know, you've pointed to an example in one particular industry where it's evolved and I've heard examples and others where it's had to be, you know, re [00:42:20] reexamined and, and looked at in a different.

Context, you know, one area that you and I share a particular interest in is this idea of the corporate athlete. Um, and the idea that, [00:42:30] you know, in, in the, in the organizations of the future, especially in a knowledge-based economy, it's the organizations that are best positioned and best structured to [00:42:40] extract the peak performance from their employees in a way that.

Sports organizations extract peak performance from their athletes. It's the [00:42:50] organizations that extract that performance from their employees themselves that are going to have the most amount of success. And it's a difficult task to achieve in a knowledge-based economy where productivity is very [00:43:00] difficult to put your finger on and.

How do you measure, how do you measure things like creativity and innovation and teamwork that are largely subjective and, and can [00:43:10] be that can shift from day to day, hour to hour project to project. And you know, one thing that we've talked about in the past, you and I is this idea of keeping people, [00:43:20] keeping people connected.

And whether they are away from work because they are in a job search or whether they're away from work in the context of being off work, because they're [00:43:30] taking a holiday or they're off perhaps on a medical leave or a parental leave. Um, the idea of keeping people connected. Um, I'm curious about your thoughts around, you know, [00:43:40] the, um, applying principles of the corporate athlete and the sports world into organizations.

As we go forward as a method of perhaps solving some of these leadership challenges we referenced. Oh, 

[00:43:50] Guest 1: [00:43:49] yeah, I'm a, I'm a big fan of the, the sort of the, the managing your energy, physical, mental, spiritual, emotional energies. We've never needed it more than we need it [00:44:00] right now. And, and I think there's, there's some reasons for that.

Uh, a lot of the assignments that we take these days are so, so high change transformation. Into [00:44:10] it, they are like sprints and, you know, you really need to be able to manage your energy during those, uh, those assignments, but also in between assignments. And [00:44:20] increasingly I think people will, will, will see that there are gaps, you know, as people undertake, whether it's portfolio or interim, uh, kind of, uh, you know, Uh, [00:44:30] career paths or whether there's just more choices, that's thrown it as such as such as the pandemic.

And I know suddenly, you know, a number of people who are in a pretty desperate state [00:44:40] right now in terms of trying to get back on an even keel professionally and personally. Uh, you know, I obviously feel for a lot of people who are in that situation. I [00:44:50] also talked to a lot of individuals who are trying to find the most, trying to make the most of the opportunity of having essentially a break.

You know, [00:45:00] having a chance to refresh refocus, rethink, um, the way forward and too many. I, you know, sometimes you have to sort of change your [00:45:10] perspective and, uh, it comes from coaching, but a really good reframe is, is often very valuable thing to do. I w I was speaking to somebody from the world of sports recently, [00:45:20] and they were saying, you know, professional athletes at the, at the top level may have only a 10 year career.

And when an athlete is injured, let's say they have a knee injury [00:45:30] and the playing a, you know, a physical contact game they could be out for a year, uh, could be out for longer. So you've got an athlete. Who's, who's looking at prospects of losing [00:45:40] 10% of their career time, uh, through nursing one injury. And I said, so what do you do?

How do you make sure, how do you get them back? You know, how do you make sure that person doesn't [00:45:50] just ditch professional sport. And, uh, and I think this is just not for me. It's not sustainable. And it's an well, there's actually many things that you can do whilst an athlete is [00:46:00] recovering from a specific injury.

Um, obviously he wants to get that injury fixed as fast as possible, but also there's many other elements to fitness and skill development [00:46:10] that are still possible. Uh, so often, you know, if an athlete is training the areas of their game, that they can, that they are able to train, they can come [00:46:20] back with a much sort of broader skillset and a much sharper game, uh, where, when they're physically fit, the second aspect that, that professional sports teams that.

Try really [00:46:30] hard to do is to keep the injured player socially included in the team. Uh, you know, whether that's attending games, even if you're the guy who runs on with the water bottles for the [00:46:40] rest of the team, you've got to keep that sort of social connection with the club it's culture, it's social it's network.

And I think for [00:46:50] us in the professional world, there's this, there's some real. Parallels here, which is okay. So let's say you find yourself with some time in between jobs. What can you [00:47:00] do? Not just to rest and re refresh, but to really sharpen the toolbox, eh, professionally and personally, but keep connected, [00:47:10] keep connected socially.

Yeah. With the network with new network, but also a old network, because I think one of the things that it's people the most is sort of the loss of [00:47:20] identity when they're no longer part of an organization or part of a team. And I, you know, I encourage people to sort of look at this slightly differently, uh, as professional.

It's unlikely. [00:47:30] You're looking at a 10% of your career. Uh, that's going by the wayside through injury here. You know, whether we like it or not, we're going to be working a long time or at least we need, we need to find a way to [00:47:40] do that. So in many respects, these, these small breaks are huge opportunities.

If we can find the positive out of that. And I appreciate not everybody can, two [00:47:50] people are in some pretty desperate. Just desperate States, but many others actually, they can like, uh, resourceful. They are creative, they are whole, uh, and these are brilliant [00:48:00] opportunities for sort of regrowth and, uh, you know, coming back stronger.

Matt: [00:48:04] Yeah. I agree with you a hundred percent. And I think there's lots to learn from organizations in that regard. And I think [00:48:10] it goes back to this idea of, to your point. It looking after the whole self and, you know, an appreciation that there is a toll that work [00:48:20] of any type takes on, um, an individual takes on in that context.

And I think about, you know, as we go forward, I, I expect to see a greater preference [00:48:30] being placed on things like sleep hygiene and mindfulness, uh, and overall wellness of the employee. Because as we've all experienced, whether you have had. [00:48:40] A, you know, whatever your circumstance during the last 18 months, we've all taken on more and more in terms of stress more in terms of [00:48:50] challenges.

Some of course certainly have had a more difficult time than others, but. We've we've each stretched the capacity of what's possible for us. Um, and I think that the people [00:49:00] that I've seen who have thrived most during this period of time to your point are the ones that look at an opportunity and see it for what it is, uh, either a chance to, [00:49:10] you know, Learn a new skill or really face a particular challenge that maybe they were resistant to, to address earlier because they didn't have to or see the [00:49:20] opportunity in crisis.

Um, and yes, it's a privilege to do all of those things. And it's also can be come down to a mindset and how to do those things. And I think that in a world that [00:49:30] I, at least I expect will not become any less complex going forward. That we will see an increasing amount of pressure being placed at the individual at the leader at the team level.

[00:49:40] I think the individuals who are best able to. If you will transcend those challenges are we'll be best positioned to endure, to thrive in these [00:49:50] spaces. And organizations are going to have to find a way to be able to provide their employees and teams with those tools in service to achieving mutual benefit.

So [00:50:00] I'm really excited about this future of work in that particular context. And in particular, the. The opportunity for the HR profession to evolve from this [00:50:10] historical emphasis on compliance and administration into more of one focused on talent and, and true performance from employees taking a broader view and getting away from [00:50:20] annual performance reviews and, you know, nine box grids and to actually addressing at a personal level, what people need from a coaching perspective, from a leadership perspective, [00:50:30] from a, from a work experience perspective, to really extract the most amount of value from them.

And that they feel like they've been also supported as well. 

Guest 1: [00:50:38] Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree. [00:50:40] I mean, it's almost like what the organization needs to learn right now is, is not just, and I think not just about sort of recovery and, and digital transformation, but it's [00:50:50] also about, uh, you know, humanity and, and making sure that there is the element there to be sustainable for everybody.

Uh, you know, who, who works in the organization. 

Matt: [00:50:59] Rupert. I [00:51:00] always enjoy our conversations. Um, we can always seem to go on for hours and thank you again for joining me today. I'm going to link all of your details in the show notes of this podcast for anybody who wants to connect [00:51:10] to Rupert directly. But just to thank you again, my friend, it's been a great conversation and looking forward to the next one.

Thank you, Matt. 

Guest 1: [00:51:15] Always a pleasure. Thank you very much.

[00:51:20] Matt: [00:51:24] At bento HR, we enable your HR strategy with custom HR technology, procurement [00:51:30] implementations, and integrations. Deliberate your team from administration enhance their productivity and experience to position them at the center of your organization's transformation. [00:51:40] Where they belong with experience as an HR executive myself, I have a real appreciation of the challenges facing today's HR leaders.

The world is changing. [00:51:50] Your industry is being disrupted. Your organization is transforming and all the while you're trying to do more with less you're being asked to simultaneously [00:52:00] model fiscal restraint, while the expectations of your departments are only increasing. At bento HR, we can support you at every stage of your transformation [00:52:10] from architecting, the strategy to developing and selling the business case.

Internally we support procurement implementations and [00:52:20] ongoing sustainment, and we tie it all together with a deep knowledge of the HR profession. And over six decades of combined experiences from our founding team [00:52:30] who has worked in or supported large HR organizations across multiple industries, including, but not limited to financial services, [00:52:40] technology, retail, transportation, and healthcare, check out bento HR today to build your very own bento box, which doubles as your business case [00:52:50] for transformation.

Leveraging recent research into the upside of digital automation inside organizations. And with your help in answering a few simple questions [00:53:00] related to your organization, our bento builder will provide a directional business case for change. So log on to www dot bento, hr.com and [00:53:10] build your bento box today.