How Modern Leaders Redefine Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs - Tim Tiryaki

Tim is passionate about the intersection of organizational culture and coaching. With experience in marketing, sales and HR at large organizations such as Procter & Gamble, Intel and Index Group, Tim has coached C-level leaders, and taught at Bogazici University Lifelong Learning Centre, Global Knowledge Canada, and Simon Fraser University. 

He holds five coaching certificates, is trained in multiple coaching styles and is a PhD candidate focusing on wise leadership. Timothy has four nationally published books in Turkish, including one on coaching, and he has worked with clients such as MEC, Telus, Aviso Wealth, and Doctors of BC.

I’ve known Tim for a few years now. We’ve bumped into each other at industry events, and he was kind enough to invite me to a past Great Place to Work event in Toronto, where I heard  number of inspiring stories.

I like Tim. And I wanted him to tell his story. Maslow’s story

And how Tim believes the now ubiquitous ‘hierarchy of needs’ research relates to organizational culture. We discuss the changing leadership paradigm in the 21st century, ask what business leaders struggle with most in this unprecedented era, and discuss how coaching can be part of that solution. 

It’s one topic of many that we dig into over our nearly hour-long chat. And I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.

Tim Tiryaki

Timothy is passionate about the intersection of organizational culture and coaching. With vast experience in marketing, sales and HR at large organizations such as Procter & Gamble, Intel and Index Group, he has coached C-level leaders and taught at Bogazici University Lifelong Learning Centre, Global Knowledge Canada, and Simon Fraser University.

He holds five coaching certificates, is trained in multiple coaching styles and is a PhD candidate focusing on wise leadership. Timothy has four nationally published books in Turkish, including one on coaching, and he has worked with clients such as MEC, Telus, Aviso Wealth, and Doctors of BC.

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Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Not that the third level, which is the self-actualizing organization level, which is, again, going back to that embodied [00:00:10] purpose, people, focus, culture, powering leadership. There's still some middle levels we need to sort of sort out, but we need to remind leaders and executives that purpose culture. And [00:00:20] empowering leadership is, is always key, uh, to build a self-actualizing organization

[00:00:30] strengths drive [00:00:40] innovation. Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of thinking inside the box, a show where we discuss complex issues related to work and culture. If [00:00:50] you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at bento, hr.com, wherever you find your favorite podcasts by searching, thinking inside the box.

And [00:01:00] now in virtual reality in Altspace VR. In today's episode, I chat with a good friend, Tim Iraqi, the founder and [00:01:10] executive coach at the Maslow center for executive leadership, a Vancouver based organization offering accredited coach training programs, as well as consulting and [00:01:20] coaching for large scale organizations.

By redefining Maslow's hierarchy of needs for the 21st century and organization. [00:01:30] The organization is under covering a paradigm shift in the way executive leaders and coaches pioneer change. And prior to launching [00:01:40] Maslow, Tim was an executive coach at great place to work candidate. So today utilizing the work of Maslow and combining it with his past experiences [00:01:50] and work on humanizing leadership, the organization has created a whole new school of thought that pushes today's leaders to reach their full potential, become the best version of themselves.

[00:02:00] And in a lot of cases, build self-actualizing organization. It's a really noble cause and it's time perfectly in [00:02:10] a space where leaders and more broadly organizations are looking for a different tone. And the fact is that we have a deficit of coaching [00:02:20] in most organizations and it's organizations like Tim's to help us close that gap.

It was another great conversation. I really enjoyed it and I hope you do as well. [00:02:30] So without further ado, Tim, Jackie. Tim. I say this to some folks and I really mean this in our case. It has been way too long since [00:02:40] we have had a conversation. How are you? My friend. I'm very good, Matt. Great to get together.

I'm not sure as it's been, I think maybe two years or so. Yes. It's been almost two years. And last [00:02:50] time we spoke, uh, the world was a very different place. You were in a different place. I was in a different place. A lot has happened in the course of the two years. But for those who don't know [00:03:00] your story and your background, I think it'd be great to start there.

Who is Tim? What is your background? What are your experiences and what are you doing today? Sure. Thank you for asking Matt. Yeah. So [00:03:10] my story in a nutshell, before going back, couple hundred centuries, um, I was, uh, born in Canada and Toronto, uh, raised most of my life in [00:03:20] Istanbul, Turkey, and I, I graduated from engineering from American university there, uh, worked at large corporations, Proctor and gamble, sales, Intel [00:03:30] marketing index, group, HR.

But the, the, the, the, the process has been for me searching my own north star. Who am I and who do I want to become? And, and through that, [00:03:40] though, that journey, I noticed that I'm personally not motivated or inspired by a big brand or products or services. I'm a people person. And I got to discover my architect more [00:03:50] and more as a teacher, as a healer, which in today's world, I found the best place.

For that to flourish is as being an executive coach and a leadership coach, which I've really been [00:04:00] enjoying in the last decade. And, you know, a few of my tangents on consulting, organizational culture consulting. But today, uh, with Maslow center, I got to [00:04:10] synthesize and as Steve jobs said, connect the dots backwards and bringing together my engineering, sales, marketing, HR, and leadership, uh, training background at muscle centers.

So that's [00:04:20] my story in a nutshell. And maybe on top of that, Also a completed in the last decade. My master's at SFU and I'm currently a PhD candidate at SFU [00:04:30] as well. One of the reasons that we originally connected was because you bring such a breadth of perspective and experiences and thinking to really [00:04:40] complex problems, Tim and I always came to appreciate that about our previous chats, which is why I was really eager to have you join me today on the podcast.

And you know, when I heard that you had launched Maslow, I got [00:04:50] really excited. Cause I, I said to you. I've unfortunately had a number of conversations with people in my network and friends and past colleagues and current colleagues that have [00:05:00] struggled a lot during the pandemic. Right. Then I see people like yourself, who I think so highly of, uh, and they're doing such great work, having such success.

[00:05:10] Um, talk, maybe talk a bit more about what Maslow has meant for you and for the market and why you think you guys have been having so much success early in your, uh, thank you. So [00:05:20] the mass little center for executive leadership was founded. With the purpose of, of joining contributing to, I believe one of the big movements of the 21st [00:05:30] century.

Now, the way 20th century was different than 19th century, obviously the 21st century will be different than the previous one. And, and, and while this change is [00:05:40] happening, there's a big movement, current pushing the iceberg of humanity. And it's the transformation of capitalism, the evolution of capitalism towards.

Many words [00:05:50] are used 21st century capitalism, conscious capitalism, triple bottom line, or stutter stakeholder capitalism. But this, this, this hybrid model, which is a more humanizing [00:06:00] version of capitalism also implies an organizational change, a leadership paradigm change. And one of the things I noticed that as my passion.

Is that I, I believe [00:06:10] we cannot live with the same leadership paradigm we did in the 20th century. We need to change it. It's not mainstream, we're not there yet, but there are signs and interested people and [00:06:20] organizations and leaders pioneering a change in thinking. So that's what I want to be. And muscle center is an extension of my purpose of humanizing leadership and [00:06:30] organizations.

And so we started the center, bringing together several coaches and create this platform, which, which offers a support to executives [00:06:40] and mid to large size organizations who want to explore building great workplace cultures and explore the farther depths of who they can be. So the reason why we also needed after [00:06:50] Abraham Maslow, the founding father of humanistic psychology is here.

Inspiration to challenge the whole psychology world and his time and how he came up [00:07:00] with the vision of human potential and organizational potential of self-actualizing realizing who we can be as human beings. There's a lot there and I'm going [00:07:10] to parse it out over the course of this conversation, but I do want to start with.

The inspiration for the organization that is low. And I think that for those familiar, with his [00:07:20] famous hierarchy of needs and, you know, thinking through again the course of the last 18 months or so, I think it's fair to assume that the majority of us have in some cases [00:07:30] had to take steps. Down the pyramid, um, and have had to consider or think about things that we didn't have to worry about necessarily two years ago, we've seen, [00:07:40] you know, significant risks and challenges around public health.

We've seen significant job loss, either in the form of small businesses going away. Or [00:07:50] organization's restructuring. Uh, we've seen significant tension between our social networks and the fact that we've been in a lot of cases around the world, in some form of lockdown, [00:08:00] we've seen those social fabric really have to.

Get stretched and redefine itself. Um, we've really, as a society gone through a shared experience, which [00:08:10] doesn't have a, if you will, an equivalent at any other point in our history. And I'm curious as you're working through [00:08:20] Maslow in terms of an organizational context, how much of that thinking permeates the coaching work that you're doing with executives and organizations?

[00:08:30] That was a very good summary. Matter of exactly what we lived in, how kind of relating to the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Now, it wasn't ideal to start a brand new [00:08:40] center, which has research and a practice center in a school of coaching, uh, right before the pandemic. It was, it was a huge learning curve for us as well.

But on the other side, we [00:08:50] haven't anticipated that our work would be so relevant. During this global pandemic and, and very well said, like we all fell down as humanity to the basic, [00:09:00] uh, needs level of physical safety, health, and security. And will we get to keep their jobs? Will people be able to pay their bills and not [00:09:10] just individuals, organizations have been, they fell down to that basic level as well as survival.

Will the organization be able to survive this crisis? A lot [00:09:20] of funny memes and characters that we all saw in social media in the last year, whatever happened in north America, like toilet paper become one of those basic needs, lowest level and [00:09:30] wifi, like some, some drawings adding wifi to the basic things, but that was the truth.

That was the reality. We all lived the first step. Three months or so, and especially [00:09:40] those that were privileged to be able to work from home. Uh, but to do you have the basic office setting, do you have the corner to be able to work out from, is your wifi reliable? Is your chair ergonomic [00:09:50] and those were starting points, but, but soon after that, so after the three to six months, Organizations kind of pulled themselves together and start to thinking about culture again, [00:10:00] which brings us to the middle part of the hierarchy of needs, which is about belonging and self esteem.

So those two levels are actually psychological safety needs, their relational needs. [00:10:10] Um, and that's where still the state, a lot of HR leaders are thinking about how do we turn our culture? How do we bring our culture? Hybrid work environment. How do [00:10:20] we bring our culture practices and, and our rituals of how we celebrate, recognize, appreciate how do we redesign?

We envision L and D and a lot [00:10:30] of HR transformation, which I know you are leading and doing a great job at HR collective as well. Uh, but still the stay work that middle part of trying to figure out that inclusion, [00:10:40] collaboration, social connections, which is a part of our research. So we've been conducting research in the last year on how does Maslow's hierarchy of needs show up in the workplace and enhance these, these few points that I [00:10:50] mentioned?

I think we still have a step. We're not, we're not that. Third level, which is the self-actualizing organization level, which is, again, going back to that embodied purpose, [00:11:00] people, focus, culture, powering leadership. There's still some middle levels we need to sort sort out, but we need to remind leaders and executives that purpose culture and [00:11:10] empowering leadership is, is always.

Uh, to build a self-actualizing organization. Yeah. I mean, in a lot of ways, the work that we're doing, Tim is complimentary. [00:11:20] Um, you, you referenced HR transformation, you know, I would, I would bundle it under broader, you know, organizational digital transformation, a lot of the work that we do at bento HR. I don't talk a [00:11:30] lot.

You know, on the podcast, I, I much prefer to give a vehicle to the incredible guests that we have on, and I don't want to change that format here at the same [00:11:40] time. I do want to point out that a lot of the work that we do is, is foundational work and organizations. We're helping them at the intersection of strategy, technology, data, and culture, [00:11:50] and we're doing deep work around.

Technology roadmapping. We're doing deep work around the tooling of the organization and to ensure that the employees and their teams [00:12:00] and the broader organization have what they need to be able to thrive in a hybrid work setting. Uh, you know, as you mentioned with culture in a lot of cases, the infrastructure of [00:12:10] organizations was challenged at the early days of the pandemic.

And like with culture, uh, we defaulted in a lot of organizations to prioritizing activities that. [00:12:20] Would ensure business continuity, operational continuity. So we got laptops and VPNs and cell phones to people. Uh, but to your point, we didn't give [00:12:30] a lot of consideration to ideal workstations and ergonomics.

And you know, as well as you mentioned. We didn't give a lot of consideration to the culture. It was really about how do we keep [00:12:40] things going? Because we didn't have a line of sight to what was happening. And we didn't know how long it was going to endure. So culture kind of became an afterthought, but as we've Rhea [00:12:50] woken, if you will, and organizations, and as we've settled into this new status of sorts, culture has come back into the conversation because organizations are realizing.

[00:13:00] In whatever form they will shape, uh, on a go-forward basis, whether it's a fully office type setting, whether it's a fully remote setting or for the majority of organizations, [00:13:10] somewhere in between culture becomes a critical element. As it always has been to define who you are in the market for the purposes of [00:13:20] employment branding for the purposes of attraction, retention of talent, and then ultimately the engagement and performance of talent as well.

And. Yeah, [00:13:30] I can appreciate that. As you went through the course of last year, you very much were alongside a lot of senior leaders that were going through that fundamental [00:13:40] change, both as individuals, but also supporting broader organizations. And I'm curious if from your perspective, you mentioned this paradigm shift, you know, for many leaders [00:13:50] they're having to.

In some ways say goodbye to the way that they did things in the past and embrace a new way of leadership, a new way of management. And I'm curious [00:14:00] in some trends that you've been able to identify early in Maslow's journey of some of the attributes or behaviors or, or, um, competencies that leaders have kind of had to say [00:14:10] goodbye.

Yes, what they need to say goodbye to wildlife. Think about that. I'd like to share some of the trends and the leadership thinking and the [00:14:20] acknowledgements that we've been observing over the past year. Um, so the way I, about my first insight on this is that leaders are more and more acknowledging that products and [00:14:30] services are not the competitive advantage anymore.

It's people, culture and technology that are the key advantages of the 21st century used to be that the business leaders [00:14:40] work on. This core business strategy, strategic plan, business plan. That was the real deal and let HR deal with the culture stuff so that more of the fluffy stuff. Right. Whereas [00:14:50] now there's a huge acknowledgement.

People on culture and technology is the strategy. It is the part of the core strategy. If we bring together the right people, [00:15:00] uh, build a great workplace culture, give them the right tools and technology to do their job. They will come up with the products and services and understand client needs and client experience.

[00:15:10] So that's one of the big insights that I've been noticing. Hence, culture is on the agenda for a lot of executives. Uh, number two, uh, second insight. Uh, I, I think there's this [00:15:20] change happening from change management to transformation management, um, all organizations have a transformation agenda and those that don't have, if any listeners are working [00:15:30] those, I would be seriously worried.

Uh, and I see this also the evolution of revolution idea. So like change management is we're more incremental evolution. Whereas [00:15:40] transformation is the, is, is the, the, the accelerated strategy change the transformation as a revolution. Um, so we're talking about these with executives on how are they approaching transformation?

[00:15:50] What's the transformation agenda? Do they have. Proper principles of proper process of proper way of strategizing transformation. And also, again, I know a key [00:16:00] field is digital transformation, but what's the effect impact on culture. The culture transformation is a key component as well. Now, a missing link that we found in [00:16:10] transformation projects is actually a systematic large scale coaching offering.

Hence. We started researching and applying in our practice center. [00:16:20] This idea called culture coaching in the last year with coach one, fortune 500 companies, 60 VPs over culture transformation, and one organization that we have their [00:16:30] testimony. So we can share their name openly doctors of BC. Currently we're coaching 40 plus leaders, including their C-level and CEO through culture transformation.

So what we notice is that these [00:16:40] transformation projects need this large scale systematic. Uh, strategic coaching. So leaders implement. The change, follow through [00:16:50] they've role model, the culture change. They, they, they, they show the change they want to see in their organization. So I think these are here.

These are a couple of key trends we've been observing fascinating. [00:17:00] And as you're speaking, I'm nodding my head, which of course nobody can see on a podcast, but it makes all the sense. I mean, I, I'm a big believer in [00:17:10] systems. And in and in incentives and it, that thinking informed a lot of ways that I approached my career in the corporate world and certainly approaches the [00:17:20] way I look at my business today.

And when you look at systems and incentives, I look at them because in a lot of cases, they're at the core of the root cause of our [00:17:30] present circumstances. Hey everyone, it's Matt here. And I hope you're enjoying today's session. Before we continue. I want to make you aware of [00:17:40] our latest creative project, HR in VR, every Thursday at 5:00 PM.

Pacific standard time, all connect with technology [00:17:50] pioneers, business executives from the world's most iconic brands and industry thought leaders to discuss the future of immersive technologies like virtual reality and [00:18:00] their impact on future workplace. In partnership with Microsoft we're broadcasting each episode on LinkedIn live and in front of a live studio [00:18:10] audience in Altspace.

Joining is easy for LinkedIn users. Simply follow my account, Matt in VR and stay tuned Thursdays at 5:00 PM. [00:18:20] Pacific standard time for the LinkedIn lives. Or for a truly immersive live experience, visit alt vr.com to download [00:18:30] Altspace on your Mac, PC or VR headset, and join us live in our studio audience.

There you'll have a chance to ask questions, [00:18:40] meet me and our incredible guests and connect with others from the comfort of your own home. This is the future folks. And I hope to be part of it. And I'll link [00:18:50] the details for HR in VR, along with all other relevant information in the show notes of this podcast.

And now back to our discussion.

[00:19:00] So, for example, you referenced this, the, the, the shifting emphasis on products and [00:19:10] services in favor of people technology. And you didn't say this, but I'll add it data in, in the future world. And I think that makes all the sense in the world for a few [00:19:20] reasons. The first one is, if you think about our business context, our world, let's say 30 years ago, 20 years ago.

When I first started my, my foray into the corporate [00:19:30] world change cycles in organizations were much slower than they are today. I remember sitting in meetings with my executive team [00:19:40] 15, almost 20 years ago, talking about three to five year corporate strategic plans. Now, if someone pulls out a five-year plan, it's like, is this like a Relic from the past?

Like it's no one's thinking in terms of three [00:19:50] to five years anymore. You know, six months, 12 months, maybe it's a couple of years in some cases for significant capital investments, but the time horizon is shrunk [00:20:00] materially. Secondly, you know, the, the very nature of war of work has shifted as well. I mean, I remember again early in my career, some of the, um, you know, baby boomer [00:20:10] generation lamenting.

More transient nature of millennials like myself, as we've progressed through our careers and looking at opportunities more as stepping stones [00:20:20] along a long, a larger path, not spending 35, 40 years in a single organization to retire there and get the plaque and then ride off into the sunset. So [00:20:30] whether it's the employment in the workforce, whether it's the nature of business with those reduced change cycles and accelerated change.

The emphasis on products and services has to [00:20:40] shift, because if you've had a really good idea, 30 years ago, you could probably ride that good idea for the entire 30 years of a business. If you produced the best [00:20:50] widget 30 years ago, that widget could be a top seller 30 years. Today. If you build an exceptional widget, it's very likely that in the next 12 [00:21:00] months, somebody will have built a better widget, either going to be less expensive, it'll be more environmentally friendly.

You'll have different materials and different alloys. There will be something [00:21:10] comparable, if not multiple comparables on. Which as a consequence of that requires a shift from waterfall, thinking to agile thinking requires much more [00:21:20] iteration, experimentation, much more of a growth mindset and innovation mindset.

And all those things require people. And it requires people to be [00:21:30] looking at these broader markets, the broader products and services, and constantly being open to this idea of changing and being agile and being nimble. And. [00:21:40] Therefore, we have to place to your point, a greater emphasis on the people in the organization and ultimately the tech that [00:21:50] powers their work and the data that can inform their work if we're going to have success as an organization.

So when I look at the way things are shifting, I look at these incentives, the [00:22:00] broader macro economic shifts that are occurring. We were on this path, the pandemic absolutely accelerated the path and we're not going back to [00:22:10] the world of 30 year change cycles. Five-year strategic plans. We are moving to a knowledge-based economy.

Where are you? I agree with you. [00:22:20] Organizations will win or they will not win. On the basis of their ability to attract the best kind of people and to get the most from those people [00:22:30] and to as best they can retain them to build that cohesion in the organization and organizations that turn a blind eye to that.

And instead, try and replicate their [00:22:40] own experiences from 20 years ago are going to be at a deficit, which will increase over time. So I agree with the organization. Need to have a, more [00:22:50] of a transformation mindset, more of an exponential growth mindset, as opposed to incremental shifts. And I think your, your studies are, are, you know, very reminiscent of [00:23:00] what's occurring.

And, um, you know, I'm, I'm not surprised to hear that you guys are deploying it for organizations that are making those shifts. And you mentioned doctors of BC. I mean, I can't think of an industry that's perhaps more effected by [00:23:10] this than hell. Uh, education would be another one. That's going to go through a massive shift over the next five to seven years.

So it it's, it's a curious conversation. And I think, you know, as we talked about [00:23:20] before, I'm really happy that organizations like yours led by people like you are thinking through these challenges to really help leaders because ultimately you and I both. [00:23:30] Tim like change is scary, even though we know it's coming, even though we know it's necessary for us, it's really, really hard if you've defined yourself as a leader in a certain light, and now [00:23:40] you have to completely shift your thinking to have success in a different stage of your career.

That wasn't the way it happened for the people that proceeded. But it is the way it's going [00:23:50] to happen for us now. And coaching. And a lot of cases is about helping leaders through the inevitable change that they have to go through so they can bring the good with them. And then in some [00:24:00] cases, just, you know, let go of the things that are not going to serve them going forward.

Great points, Matt and you're so right. Like change is. Oh, am I, it is painful. Like when I hear someone that [00:24:10] stays and there are people like that, which I envy them, they're like, oh, I love change. I enjoy change. I'm like, wow, lucky you, this is your era. Like for me, although I'm embracing change, I'm pioneering [00:24:20] change.

But I, I, I don't feel that I love change. It gives me that, yeah, that, that, that stomachache on occasions. But it's the reality. It is, it is our world. We live in and, and we need to adapt. And as human [00:24:30] beings, we, we can adapt, which is the good news. And that's what we're helping. Uh, leaders do and, and building some more on that.

I think it's an interesting conversation to talk about [00:24:40] how was the leadership paradigm changing and how do we help leaders adapt to this? Uh, and that's where coaching comes in, not just as coaching leaders, but also teaching leaders [00:24:50] to become coaches. Because when, uh, when a leader acknowledges that they're the coach of the team, They, they want to help the players in the game become their best [00:25:00] selves and play the game in the best possible way.

It's not about the coach going in and running the game and hitting the puck or kicking the ball. It's about helping the team become [00:25:10] their best selves. And I, that I love bringing a lot of sports coaching, metaphors analogies of sports psychology field strongly informs high performing teams. [00:25:20] And it's really relevant for today's.

Yeah. It's funny. You mentioned that I think of the last five podcasts I've recorded. Three of them have had some reference to sports psychology in them in one [00:25:30] way, shape or form for a couple of areas that I think you'd be pretty interested in. The first one is this idea of rest. I've met with a couple of high performing athletes at the college [00:25:40] level, at the, um, you know, Olympic level who lament the.

Change from that their athletic pursuits into the corporate world and [00:25:50] the seeming, if you will disappear. The specific nature around the importance of rest. If you ask any high performing athlete, you know how [00:26:00] rest is thought about in the context of their broader training regimen, they'll tell you it's a critical element, the ability to recuperate and recover and rest in a very small window, but also to [00:26:10] do so in a way that allows you to achieve optimum performance.

The next time you have to perform is absolutely critical for any athlete and at the same time, [00:26:20] We haven't translated that into the corporate world. We still in very much in a lot of organizations default to this grind and hustle culture, where the hours you put in [00:26:30] are equivalent to the commitment you have to the firm.

And, you know, we, we stand up and clap for the person who gets into the office. First thing and leaves last and yeah, the science doesn't [00:26:40] support it in terms of true human performance. There isn't science that supports the idea of somebody being more effective between our 35 and our 55. Um, it's not the right, [00:26:50] um, you know, model to sh to signal to your employees that may have other considerations around work-life integration that could come in conflict with that kind of a schedule.

And it's something [00:27:00] that we're going to have to evolve going forward. Um, if we're going to. Again, transition our thinking from a productivity based, uh, [00:27:10] industrial, you know, if you will economic model into a thought. Knowledge based economic model, which you know, is not, you know, time spent, you know, inputs are not [00:27:20] equivalent to outputs in the way that they once were.

And you know, I think about that in the context of athletics and sport leadership and sports psychology. And, you know, I [00:27:30] think that's such a critical component going forward. I'm curious for you as well, Tim, like how else does sports psychology inform your practice in a more of a button? Yeah. So sports [00:27:40] psychology's is bringing in against the same parallels with that.

We were not there in terms of the business. Uh, understanding corporate organizational understanding of five performance. And there are things for us [00:27:50] to learn from, from sports psychology. I definitely agree with that. And in sports psychology, it's, it's very clear that high performance is not a constant go, go, go, stepping on the guests.

[00:28:00] It's actually an incredible balance between knowing when to step on the gas and knowing when to step on the brake. It's not just always on the brake, it's not always on, on [00:28:10] the gas. So it's that ability to move between those, which, which brings the high performance. Um, and I'm going to share this, how this relates to, to also Maslow's hierarchy of needs as well.

[00:28:20] So what our research shows that some of the basic needs at work showing up right now, these months in the middle of COVID is, are some basic needs of rest relaxation [00:28:30] recovery. In terms of break times, vacation times timeline. White white, white time, or what's called, which switch, leaving your calendar empty for white spots.

[00:28:40] Uh, no video conference days, or maybe zoom calls with no videos on. So these are forms of relaxation, resting, and recovery, and the corporate environment, which is [00:28:50] showing up as basic needs. Actually that we're missing. A lot of organizations are missing the mark on this one. Um, uh, and hence what's helps us step on the gas is this place of [00:29:00] self-actualization of this purpose driven high performing place, but in order to get there, we need to go back to some basic needs as well.

Uh, that being said, we shouldn't just be [00:29:10] stuck there as well, but I think that's not the problem nowadays is the problem is as you highlight, it's the rest and recovery and another part from the sports psychology that we need. Uh, is, is, is [00:29:20] the, the, the, the visualization and mindfulness component, which is a key element as well.

And now it's showing up as again, it's basic, uh, physical wellbeing and mental health [00:29:30] wellbeing as some of those ways of, of recovery rest and relaxation. Uh, in the corporate space and that deeply resonates with me. Um, you know, one thing I think United [00:29:40] discussing the past Tim is, is my own journey from the corporate world where I certainly experienced burnout by my own design on a number of occasions.

And [00:29:50] transitioning into entrepreneurship has been incredibly illuminating in as far as the right habits and behaviors and disciplines that [00:30:00] I need to put in place to ensure that. I have success because when you're in an entrepreneurial venture and you know this as well as I do, it is directly, your success of the [00:30:10] venture is directly correlated to the founder's ability to endure their success.

And as an entrepreneur, there's a lot of pressure to succeed. And when you're just starting out, there's this [00:30:20] real pressure to. You know, have success when a lot of ventures, particularly now aren't successful. And at the same time, you, to your point, you [00:30:30] can't be your foot on the gas, 24 7 365, because you won't be able to sustain that momentum.

And you won't be able to realize the type of sustained [00:30:40] performance that you want to have as an organization. And when it comes to mindfulness or meditation or visualization, I think those parts are, [00:30:50] are absolutely critical. Um, in the context of sports psychology, when we can bring over to the organizational culture.

One other piece that I want to mention that I I've talked about offline, [00:31:00] but hasn't come up online, but I think it's a good segue into it is one thing that's always. I've struggled with in an organizational context was when we have employees that are [00:31:10] no longer in the workplace, for whatever reason, maybe they're on a, a paternal leave.

Maybe they have some sort of, you know, malady or injury. Maybe they're on some sort of educational leave. [00:31:20] We take a very traditionally in large organizations. There's very much. Uh, a priority on proximity. And if you're not in the [00:31:30] organization, actively contributing in a lot of ways. You you're not, you don't exist.

You show up in a report somewhere, but there isn't a lot of interactivity with that individual. There isn't a real conscious effort to [00:31:40] keep them involved and included in what's happening with the broader firm. And as a consequence, we see a high percentage of people that go off on extended leaves ultimately end [00:31:50] up departing the organization in one way, shape or form, because they don't have that sense of connection.

They don't have the sense of community. They don't feel included. And you contrast that with [00:32:00] sports. And, you know, I remember back in my earlier days playing rugby and you know, other sports that are higher level and asking when I was injured. I was asked to come to team [00:32:10] practices. I was asked to come to matches.

I was asked to be part of team meetings. I, there was a real intentional effort to keep me involved in the, the ongoing [00:32:20] business of our team to keep that connectivity with my team members to keep that comradery. Because one, there was a significant benefit for me as an individual in terms of [00:32:30] mental health and feeling anxious.

And for the team, having that level of interactivity with me and shared that they could keep a better eye on my recover, me recovery and my, you know, my [00:32:40] ongoing physiotherapy and things of that nature. So there's a real shared benefit there. And I wonder if in the future. If we don't take a similar view to [00:32:50] organizations and hopefully broaden that to not only include the, the traditional, if you will, paternally apparently leaves and leaves because of, you know, physical elements, but [00:33:00] actually expanded into psychological challenges.

Cause I, I do believe that's going to become an increasingly, a hot topic in organizations, uh, because of the, after mentioned rapid rates [00:33:10] of change and the, and obviously the traumas that have occurred during this pandemic. You know, we are, as organizations are going to have to be more thoughtful about the psychological safety that we [00:33:20] apply to our teams and to our employees, and a really good way for us to ensure that they're getting the support that they need is by staying connected.

And these, this [00:33:30] connects very well to our research findings on how. Our basic, our common needs of belonging and self-esteem the middle part [00:33:40] of the hierarchy of needs and how it shows up in the workplace these days. Um, and our findings show that the way belonging shows up in the work. Uh, is, is [00:33:50] through three words, mainly in their further statements under these, but collaboration is one inclusion and social connections.

So the way collaboration is, is a, is a [00:34:00] fundamental human need is how we collaborate in the workplace in this remote work environment. And mostly that's showing up in terms of some digital tools and technologies and how we use the [00:34:10] shared folders or. Or task-based accountability. Software is like 15 five and so on or the dashboards.

And, but the inclusion component, it's exactly [00:34:20] what you mentioned as even when you were injured, being invited to the meetings and being part of it. So inclusion, this diversity equity and inclusion is such a key topic that if we [00:34:30] cannot figure that out as organizations, and if leaders cannot figure that out, they won't be able to build.

High-performing people focused organization. So if they want to figure that out, they need [00:34:40] to understand that middle part of the hierarchy of needs. How do we build inclusion and it's inclusion? It's, it's so simple. What, and what many leaders mistake for [00:34:50] inclusion and collaboration is that they, they fear loss of power.

They think, uh, uh, if, if you want to include people, it means [00:35:00] consensus. Seeking building all the time. That's not the case like collaboration and inclusion works very well with consultation, consultation, circles, as culture [00:35:10] practices were implementing and organizations, uh, just to, to, to encourage listening practices like listening and inclusion.

It's a really increasing trend, which is addressing that psychological [00:35:20] safety and the third word that's coming up. So the first one is, was collaboration. Second is inclusion. And the third one is social connections. Like how are we going to foster? This in the [00:35:30] new and this, this, this new environment, and those are great points.

Those are real needs and, or we need to help organizations and leaders understand and address these, um, well, wasn't [00:35:40] challenging enough. We now have to consider the fact that we're going to be operating in a hybrid world in a lot of cases. And one thing we still are. Learning [00:35:50] as a society and as organizations and the leaders that populate them.

It's how do we build connection in a digital setting? I mean, we've heard terms like zoom fatigue, there's this real [00:36:00] longing to have people back in the office and a lot of cases, and that will occur in most organizations at the same time, a component of your workforce will [00:36:10] undoubtedly be. Remote for at least a portion of their time.

So how do we continue to build that connection and to build that cohesion within the team [00:36:20] in service to, you know, realizing collaboration and innovation and ultimately performance. If we don't think through how to do the things that you mentioned around. [00:36:30] Coaching, um, and support and engagement in the context of a hybrid culture where we're going to have to apply a different treatment to people that are in the office for those that are [00:36:40] working remotely.

And those that are blending between the two, because their needs are going to be unique. And to your earlier point, it doesn't necessarily mean consensus. It doesn't mean full [00:36:50] personalization of, of a of environment. But it does require some thoughtfulness and it does increase the complexity of the problem.

And therefore, you know, [00:37:00] begets in a lot of cases, a, a more nuanced to solution. And I think that's a really great segue, Tim, to discuss a topic that you and I were kind of hammering around [00:37:10] before the podcast. And that was this concept of organizational culture coaching. And, you know, in a lot of cases, it's a, it's an emerging field in the traditional coaching [00:37:20] realm.

And I would love to hear your thoughts on. Maybe a brief definition, but also how it's showing up in your practice, but also in the organizations that [00:37:30] you're seeing working. Yes. Wonderful. I love that. This is one of the topics I'm very passionate about and as Masto center, where one of the driving forces of this new field in coaching, where [00:37:40] researching and in practicing in advocating.

And, and of course it, it has strong connections to organizational development, organizational behavior, and some of the consultant [00:37:50] practices, but how it's applied in coaching has its own fine tuning points. And the way I would define it simply is that if leadership coaching is for, for, [00:38:00] uh, unleashing individual potential.

Organizational culture coaching is for unleashing a locking the collective organizational potential. Uh, the way that the few elements, the [00:38:10] systems thinking comes into place, which I know you enjoy as well. And the idea is that, uh, the challenges, the dilemma is the problems in organizations have solutions [00:38:20] at different levels.

I think having this, this layer. A systems thinking approach helps in coaching a lot to address where's the root cause of the problem. Should it be analyzed? I [00:38:30] love using the metaphor of a country and it's like, is this a federal problem? Is this a provincial problem? Is this a local government problem? It might have a different place where you need to [00:38:40] address it.

Now, even bringing this, this layer, this, this multi-dimensional layer helps and deepens leader's thinking, and it goes beyond just one-on-one coaching that [00:38:50] we usually don't take. One-on-one coaching mandates. And, and we only address the systematic change with the way we coach like 10 plus leaders in an organization.

So we [00:39:00] can have that systems change and, and be sure to acknowledge because sometimes, and I'm not saying one-on-one coaching is not effective. One-on-one coaching is very effective, but sometimes you coach a leader, the leader's awareness is [00:39:10] changing and growing, but they're in the system in this culture.

Not moving as fast as the leaders growing and changing and hence there's this tension happening and when you're coaching individual, that's [00:39:20] why we, we encourage organizations to explore a more systematic ways of coaching their leaders for culture, change, culture transformation, and definitely the transformation process.

[00:39:30] To make them a success, need that element of, of taking the leaders through an accountability process and month over month checking in with them on how are they implementing a [00:39:40] culture action plan? How are they role modeling the culture change? How are they fostering culture practices, rituals, where the teams.

Owning and implementing together. Otherwise [00:39:50] we know that we both know, well, the vicious cycle of getting an annual survey, not doing anything about, or maybe just building up one month, super fancy culture action plan and [00:40:00] not come back to it ever again. Right. Yeah. And we, we, we, you and I have, um, Hundreds of stories of organizations that were treating traditionally the [00:40:10] concept of engagement or collaboration as an event.

And we have we've fortunately moved past that. And I think one really positive signal that I've seen over the [00:40:20] course of the pandemic is this move toward from the traditional annual. You know, bulky survey into more pulse, you know, frequent, um, sentiment [00:40:30] analysis with employees and just assessing people at various intervals, whether it's on a monthly basis or some cases bi-weekly, I've heard is frequently to really assess employees and get a [00:40:40] sense of where they are in this moment, because things are changing so much.

And I think that's, you know, a lot of ways is another example of this shift from the traditional [00:40:50] change cycles and waterfall methodology of the things being, you know, annualized now being in a lot of cases, the timeframes being shorter and condensed, you know, Tim, we've talked a lot [00:41:00] about where we've come from.

We've talked a little bit about where we stand today. I would love, you know, as we close today's conversation to get your thoughts on where you see things going in the. [00:41:10] So, if you were to go your magic crystal ball, um, and look into the future a year ahead of time, you know, where do you see continued progression for [00:41:20] us in organizational culture and coaching contexts?

Where do you maybe, do you see some of the headwinds that we might want to be mindful of and then ultimately, how do leaders best [00:41:30] navigate what is certainly going to be, um, a trial period. That's a great big question. And, and I cannot only, uh, share my hopes probably as a, [00:41:40] uh, as a person that, that hopes that we're maybe at picking the side of the battle of willing to change the world for good.

And I know we share that with you as well, is that I'll be continuing [00:41:50] to work towards finding the leaders in organizations that are willing to humanize the workplace more. I think in this digital. [00:42:00] Uh, era with AI and machine learning and all the other things that are happening, we need to help leaders focus on our core humanity.

What does it mean to be human and what are the, as a message? [00:42:10] Famous saying in book SAIS, what are the farther reaches of human nature? Who can we be? Who can we become as human beings in terms of our qualities of compassion and [00:42:20] kindness and generosity and those, those timeless virtues and values that philosophers have been talking about for, for centuries, if not decades.

Um, so [00:42:30] I think we need to keep fostering that and bringing, uh, awareness and consciousness to leaders. We, we need, we need wiser leader. And I know that I'll be working towards the end with [00:42:40] the leaders and organizations that want to cultivate that wisdom, um, for the good of theater. Uh, we have a lot of work to do you and I, Matt, we need to reach out many [00:42:50] organizations, many leaders to, to be able to do this, but I, I feel that even if the story of the little kid throwing the starfish back and ocean, if we can throw a few starfish back in the ocean, [00:43:00] I will feel purposeful in doing good for the future of earth in terms of Maslow center.

My final word would be, I think the weight Gallup has ignited an [00:43:10] incredible ecosystem of strengths and strengths. Approaches by proven by research and impact and how that group, uh, I'm hoping that Masto central will be [00:43:20] pioneering, uh, reigniting or opening conversations on needs based, uh, discussions and HR and strategy because the heart of the matter.

[00:43:30] We know that that KPIs are correlated to client member experiences, right? We know that employee experience correlates to client experience and the heart of the [00:43:40] matter for client experience and employee experience is understanding human needs. What do we need as human beings? And if we can talk about that, that's what true empathy applied empathy [00:43:50] is.

We need to understand our common humanness listened to each other, learn from each other. And collaborate better as human beings. And that's what I'll be working towards. As I mentioned before, [00:44:00] Tim, we're in good hands with you and your organization. I know that you, again, bring a breadth of experience to a challenging problem.

I know where it stems from in that it's a [00:44:10] great place and that you are. Genuinely in service to organizations and their leaders and helping them navigate these challenging times. And I want to wish you and your broader organization, a [00:44:20] ton of success going forward. Uh, we can't have enough people pulling on this rope.

Um, you know, if the pandemic has eliminated anything for us and stuff, the divide is unfortunately [00:44:30] has grown between where we w where we were and where we have to go. And, you know, it's organizations like yours that are gonna help us bridge that gap. So thank you very much for your time today. I'm looking forward, continuing this chat.

[00:44:40] Thank you so much, bathmat. My pleasure. I look forward to touching many more lives together with you and your ex.

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