How Ethical is Growth Hacking - Mario Nawfal

Mario Nawfal is the Founder of the Athena Group of Companies, a business conglomerate that operates in more than 40 countries. He’s a unique individual; unlike anyone I’ve ever interviewed before on this podcast. 

And that appealed to me for several reasons. I’m often asked for best practices around networking - one is to set aside time to meet people who aren’t like you. The world is changing and a historical bias for deep technical expertise is being replaced with a preference for agility, adaptability & resilience. Engaging with people like Mario helps add context to a changing world. 

He has an incredible story. In 2012, with $300 in the bank, he was selling blenders door-to-door. By deploying unconventional marketing techniques, efficient logistical systems and a team of global contractors, he propelled Froothie to $1m in year one and over $10m in year 2 - all bootstrapped.

 In 2013 & 2014 he formed Optimum Appliances & launched brands such as HX, Vie, FX, Prestige Home Appliances to satisfy the demand for high-end kitchen appliances. Optimum went on to achieve global brand status. In 2016 he founded the business scaling incubator - GoGlobal. In 2017  - he established International Blockchain Consulting; quickly becoming an industry authority in the rapidly growing blockchain and Crypto space. In 2018 he established a VC Fund, Accounting & Law Firms. 

His latest venture, Zense, was launched in 2019, to provide entrepreneurs with the insight to launch successful businesses on a limited budget. He’s documenting that journey; adding storytelling to an already long list of accomplishments. 

And over the course of our nearly hour-long conversation, we chatted about his origin story. Mario gave some tremendous context on his journey, including a few lessons learned along the way, that you won’t want to miss. 

We pivoted to growth hacking; Mario shared some of his best practices for a space that increasingly is being defined by a lack of rules; a willingness to challenge the status quo. We talked Clubhouse, entrepreneurship, and impact investing. 

We had a great discussion and I hope you enjoy it.

Mario Nawfal

Mario Nawfal, the Founder of the Athena Group of Companies, a business conglomerate of 15+ companies that operates in more than 40 countries. Mario started his first business with $300 in the bank selling blenders door to door which led to Froothie Australia.

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Thinking Inside the Box

Constraints drive innovation. Each week we’ll tackle the most complex issues related to work & culture.

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Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Guest 1: [00:00:00] There are companies out there that can outspend you and ask spending. You're literally, it's a zero sum game. If they can outspend you, they can almost dominate the [00:00:10] market. They can actually do it. And just like skip spending, spending until you can't afford to spend, because the CPA is too high. Let's say we're talking about this Facebook or Google ads that it's just not [00:00:20] worth for you to run ads, which could lead to you not worth running the business growth hacking is not only a different way of marketing, but it's also efficient, smart, strategic.

[00:00:30] Gamification ways of using existing platforms like Facebook, Google ads.

[00:00:40] Hey 

Host: [00:00:47] everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of [00:00:50] thinking inside the box. A show where we discuss complex issues related to work and culture. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at bento, [00:01:00] hr.com, wherever you find your favorite podcasts by searching, thinking inside the box.

And now in virtual reality, each Thursday at 5:00 PM [00:01:10] Pacific standard time in Altspace. In today's episode, I chat with Mario Knopfler, the founder of the Athena group of companies, a [00:01:20] business conglomerate that operates in more than 40 countries. And Mario is a unique individual, unlike anyone I've [00:01:30] ever interviewed before on this podcast.

And that appealed to me for several reasons. I'm often asked for best practices around networking. It's [00:01:40] something that I take a lot of pride in. And one piece of feedback that I provide is that it's important to set aside time, to meet people who are not [00:01:50] like you. The world is changing and historical bias for deep technical expertise is being replaced with a preference for things right.

[00:02:00] Learning agility and adaptability and resilience and meeting people from different generations or professions [00:02:10] or regions in the world can provide a really unique perspective among a number of other different elements of diversity and inclusion. And so engaging [00:02:20] with people like Mario helps me add context to a changing world.

He has an incredible story. As recently as [00:02:30] 2012, he was selling blenders door to door with $300 in the bank. And by deploying unconventional marketing techniques and a [00:02:40] lot of hustle along with efficient logistical system. He propelled his company to a million dollars in the first year of sales and 10 million in the second, [00:02:50] all bootstrapped in 2013 and 2014.

He formed optimum appliances and launched kitchen brands, such as HX and V FX [00:03:00] and prestige home appliances to satisfy the demand for high end kitchen appliances and optimum particularly went on to achieve global brands now. [00:03:10] In 2016, he founded his incubator go global in 2017. He established the international blockchain consulting firm quickly [00:03:20] becoming an industry authority in the rapidly growing blockchain and crypto space.

In 2018, he established a VC fund and launched accounting [00:03:30] and law firms. His latest venture Zinn's was launched in 2018. To provide entrepreneurs with the insight to launch successful businesses on a [00:03:40] limited budget. And he's documenting that journey, adding storytelling to a long list of accomplishments over the course of our nearly 45 minute conversation.

Mara and I chatted about [00:03:50] a lot. We chatted about his origin story, of course, and he gave some tremendous context and added some richness to the description. I just gave along with some [00:04:00] lessons that he's learned along the way we pivoted to growth. A particular passion for Mario. And he shared some of his best practices again, in a space that's [00:04:10] increasingly being defined by a lack of rules, a willingness to challenge the status quo.

We talked club hosts, we talked entrepreneurship, we talked impact investing. [00:04:20] It was a far ranging conversation that I certainly enjoyed. And I hope you do as well. I would love your feedback though. So if listen to this podcast, [00:04:30] Either enjoy it or have feedback that's constructive. Leave it in the comment section.

I'd love to hear your feedback on is Mario, the type of guests that you'd want to hear more [00:04:40] from in the future. Are you interested in more growth hacking or bio hacking or more resilience type content, happy to take the feedback there and apply for [00:04:50] future guests. We had a great conversation, Mario and I.

So without further ado, let's introduce Mario Knopfler. Mario. How are you doing [00:05:00] today, sir? 

Guest 1: [00:05:00] Good, man. How are you? 

Host: [00:05:02] I'm doing well. Uh, I catch you in between it, what? It sounds like a lot of different meetings on the day. It's, um, you are a very busy [00:05:10] individual, um, and I do want to get into what you're doing today.

Before we get to that point, perhaps you could help our audience understand a bit about who Mario is and a bit 

Guest 1: [00:05:18] about your background. [00:05:20] Actually, I'm busy because I live with many of my employees. I have over a hundred employees at my various companies, but what I do, and I started doing that during the pandemic.

We talked briefly about the [00:05:30] pandemic in Turkey. I rented a big Villa on the beach and. And it was nine bedrooms and invited the best growth hackers in the world to come in. And we built, [00:05:40] we are growth hackers, which is our, the largest growth hacking agency in the world blew up my businesses. And then we offered it as a service.

And now I'm doing the same thing here in Dubai. I [00:05:50] rented a big, we call it the big cloud castle. It's more of a castle rather than a Villa. If I put my video on, I can show you, we've got 12 people here and some come and go. We're all [00:06:00] working on bit clouds and projects on that platform, which is a crypto social media platform.

So I'm busy, man. Cause I've got all my team members around me and I'm doing a [00:06:10] documentary about it as well. Like a journey filming my journey. We just released episode two today. I think so. Uh, yeah man, that's my life. But more about me where I got started [00:06:20] with nothing back in Austria. I'm not, I would go to Safeway or calls the supermarket at midnight so I can buy bread for cheap so I can save money.

And, [00:06:30] um, I have $300 in the bank, started door knocking and started making six figures door knocking, surprisingly. And then my first business and off we go, it was econ. That's where I 

Host: [00:06:39] started [00:06:40] making money. And e-comm into what has turned into a pretty diverse portfolio. I meant of them, but I think for those who may not be familiar with the term growth [00:06:50] hacking, maybe talk us through a bit about what growth hacking is in your context and what it's meant for you is your broader portfolio.

Guest 1: [00:06:56] Yeah, man, I think they both go together because growth hacking for me is [00:07:00] more of a, of a way of living or doing business rather than just a secure. As well as the skill and I've touched on it in both ways. Um, so I started in econ. Then I [00:07:10] launched an events business. Then I launched a consulting firm, got into crypto, did really well.

And a partner at an offer in the crypto space, got a lot of investments. Now I've stepped up as the CEO of an [00:07:20] investment vehicle. I've got another agency that works public listed companies, and I've got all these businesses. You can look at it too. Multiple sources of income, which is great, spreading yourself too thin, which is [00:07:30] dangerous.

Um, I look at it as following what works. I test many things. I know how to build businesses and manage teams and I just test different things and double down on what works. That's been my [00:07:40] strategy since day one, since I made my first million and 10 million in the first couple of years of business to go back to the question about growth hacking, I [00:07:50] genuinely.

That growth hacking is the most underrated marketing strategy or marketing approach there is right now, if I want to give anyone any value [00:08:00] before talking about all the econ strategies, I love to geek out on about clubhouse sorts of sort of spaces or building a personal brand or recurring revenue or lifetime value, all that [00:08:10] stuff.

The biggest point, the biggest thing you could do right after listening to this podcast is go out and learn growth. You can just Google growth, hacking [00:08:20] bootcamp. Um, it's not run by me. I'm not affiliated, but it's one that we think is one of the better courses out there. Or you could just go for free and learn everything on YouTube.

I'm not a big fan of [00:08:30] courses. I'll tell you what it is, but I genuinely think this is one of the best things you could do in your life. In business. It's such an important skill. If you're starting out perfect. If you already have a business, [00:08:40] go out and hire them, you're going to find it difficult because we hire any growth hacker.

We find them. But th th there's not many out there. And if you do find one, it could change your business. Now I'll tell you what [00:08:50] growth hacking is, and I'll tell you what it does for us. Growth hacking is a way to game algorithms. So you look at Google's algorithm to rank high on [00:09:00] Google. Everyone wants to rank high.

Most people, what they do is they just start creating good content, which is important. Good content, good copy on their website and [00:09:10] get some hyperlinks to it. Just do the SEO. Which are strategies that we do and they work, but growth hacking will be a way of looking at that and thinking, okay, so [00:09:20] what does Google look for?

They look for websites with high authority scores and quite medium is a website with a high authority score. Let me, instead of writing an article on my, on my website, [00:09:30] let me write it on medium and Quora and answering a question on Quora and then, okay. How can I make it? Good writing? Good content is the most important thing.

The most important thing. Is the [00:09:40] product itself. I don't care what your growth hack, if the content is bad or the product that at the end is bad, you're wasting your time and money. So you have to write good copy on medium across. Okay. And try to [00:09:50] go through with the strategy mentally. Imagine it to give you an idea of how growth hackers think.

Okay. So we looked at a good website with good authority score. We wrote [00:10:00] a good article or answer the question that's relevant, or we can even ask a question. We could use one account to ask a question. Okay. That's relevant. So let's say, what are the best [00:10:10] growth hacking agency in the world or who are the world's best but chatter.

That's right. I traveled the world who are the world's best of the charter dancers. So you asked that question on Quora and then you use [00:10:20] another account. Now there has to be aged accounts have been around for a while. You can either buy them or find someone that can do it for you and you pay them and then you answer it.

But you don't just say you're the best. [00:10:30] Let's say you have the best agency, your list. Number one, let's say Neil Patel, digital, which is Neil Patel's agency list. Number two, whatever, some big agency that everyone knows and then list your [00:10:40] third, your boutique agency. That's much smaller than the big whales as number three, because it looks more realistic.

So now what you've done is you've [00:10:50] gone to a high authority website and you've wrote a good content and you've sneaked your name. That's not enough. You need to rank high on medium or Quora to be able to rank on [00:11:00] Google. So how do you rank high and medium? Well, they look at how many people, how much time people spend on your web on the page and how many claps you get.

Everyone looks at the claps. So [00:11:10] a, a silly junior growth hacker would just buy claps from a website. These are all shortcuts, not everyone's comfortable in doing them. I'm just trying to give you this as an example, to get an idea of [00:11:20] how growth hackers think now growth hacker would take it a step. I'd be like, okay, so I can go out and buy claps, but I'm sure medium's algorithm medium is not stupid.

They got some [00:11:30] great coders out there that hire the best. So I'm sure medium's algorithm has a way to spot if you send people randomly, like I'm like mechanical Turk or, or, [00:11:40] um, whatever other websites similar to it. Yeah, mechanical Turk or micro workers where you pay people like cents to do something really small, like go and clap subway people in third world countries that they will [00:11:50] second world countries, but medium we'll find out that those people are going on the page, not spending 6, 7, 10 minutes reading to us, or the article is click clap and leave.

The [00:12:00] algorithm will know these are fake. And the growth hacker would have broken that down. These understanding, or she's understanding the algorithm. So be like, okay, I need to get those people that are going out and then [00:12:10] clapping this off. To spend more time on the page because this way the algorithm think they're reading.

So how can I do that and do that at scale? Well, what we did is we tell people [00:12:20] to do the tasks that we send on micro workers. An Amazon Turk is we tell people, send us the first letter and the last letter of every paragraph and then clap. [00:12:30] So now they need to spend time on the page to send you the first and last letter of every paragraph before clapping, the algorithm will see them spend time on the page and we'll figure that [00:12:40] out.

They're actually reading and that would be. So that's, and we've done this by the way. If you look at best, but chatted Nasser, I'm in the top three. If you look at top clubhouse moderators [00:12:50] among the top three or on the first two results, now we've done it for many other clients and we can do it for more things.

We're doing it for things now as we speak. So it's a kind of a long way of going through [00:13:00] it. I hope it brought the audience value. I didn't plan to go that detailed. I just see so much value in it. We're doing it for ourselves and our clients. It's just working so well. And it's a shame for anyone not to [00:13:10] use it, especially someone who's.

Achieve a lot of results without spending too much money of thing. You know, that's how growth hackers live. Really. They're very frugal. [00:13:20] Um, so I kind of went a bit too deep there, man, but, um, I hope it brought value or is at least interesting. We're hoping 

Host: [00:13:25] for drop out. Oh, it's, it's, you know, I'm still here, my friends and I'm, I'm, I'm furiously [00:13:30] taking notes because I think beyond just the depth that you provided in that, and thank you for providing the depth, what you re you play.

A common concern that I hear from [00:13:40] entrepreneurs from marketers, even in larger enterprises, is that in today's market, the majority of marketing vehicles are saturated. So they require [00:13:50] organizations or entrepreneurs to spend significant sums of money, whether it's Facebook ads, LinkedIn ads, other types of platforms, too.

Attempt to have the same level of [00:14:00] visibility that other organizations are just spending obscene amounts of money to realize the same result. And if you're just starting out and you're trying to compete, if you're trying to get [00:14:10] your message heard, um, and you know, your earlier caveat is spot on. If it's really good content that adds a ton of value that in theory, it should be.

It should be heard [00:14:20] or seen or consumed by lots of people. But the reality is that in a marketing context, traditionally, those who had the most resources had the competitive advantage and [00:14:30] why I have been interested in growth hacking in particular, because to me it's the ultimate democratization of communication of messaging, of marketing.

And yes, there are tips and tricks that we [00:14:40] can use along the way, but at the end of the day, If you're putting out good content, if you're providing value to people, if you're solving real world problems, that my opinion is you [00:14:50] should be rewarded for that effort. It shouldn't just default to the people that have the most amount of assets at their disposal, because you know, ultimately business and society is at its [00:15:00] best.

When we see a constant churning of new ideas and new players and new resources, that's when we evolve. Particularly during a time like today, when [00:15:10] we're, you know, on the, hopefully near the end of this pandemic, we're going to see a massive recalibration of the market and a number of industries. And it provides an [00:15:20] opportunity for people that have the right kind of thinking the right kind of ideas, the right kind of mindset to really have success in this new kind of new, 

Guest 1: [00:15:28] yeah, man.

And I like how you [00:15:30] said that if you're selling a good product, if you're bringing value to the world, you actually solving a problem. I'm not against going aggressive in your marketing or trying to stand [00:15:40] up. And then the simple reason is there are companies out there that can outspend you and ask spending.

You're literally, it's a zero sum game. If they can outspend you, they can almost dominate the [00:15:50] market. They can actually. And just like skip spending, spending until you can't afford to spend, because the CPA is too high. Let's say we're talking about this Facebook or Google ads, but it's just not [00:16:00] worth for you to run ads, which could lead to you not worth running the business growth hacking is not only a different way of marketing, but it's also efficient, smart, strategic.

[00:16:10] Gamification ways of using existing platforms like Facebook, Google ads, mine. I made my first million in econ and the company is called Freudian still about doing million [00:16:20] smart. My second or my biggest company, I think still the econ one. The first, the way I made the money was I one on eBay and in my [00:16:30] listing, no one, I didn't have a brand.

I didn't have anything. What I did was I said in the, in the heading of each listing, I said, do not. And I put competitor name, the competitor was Vitamix [00:16:40] and that's, that was my strategy. I'll put it in, do not buy Vitamix in the listings on eBay. And, um, that, that works really well. I kind of growth hack attention [00:16:50] on eBay.

Host: [00:16:53] Hey everyone. It's Matt here and I hope you're enjoying, today's discuss. Before we continue. I wanted to make you aware of our [00:17:00] latest creative project, HR in VR, every Thursday at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time, all connect with technology pioneers, [00:17:10] business executives from the world's most iconic brands and industry thought leaders to discuss the future of immersive technologies like virtual reality and their [00:17:20] impact on future workplace.

In partnership with Microsoft we're broadcasting each episode on LinkedIn live and in front of a live studio audience [00:17:30] in Altspace. Joining is easy for LinkedIn users. Simply follow my account, Matt in VR and stay tuned Thursdays at 5:00 PM. [00:17:40] Pacific standard time for the LinkedIn lives. Or for a truly immersive live experience, visit alt vr.com to download [00:17:50] Altspace on your Mac, PC or VR headset, and join us live in our studio audience.

There you'll have a chance to ask questions, [00:18:00] meet me and our incredible guests and connect with others from the comfort of your own home. This is the future folks. And I hope to be part of it. And I'll link the [00:18:10] details for HR and VR, along with all other relevant information in the show notes of this podcast.

And now back to our discussion,

[00:18:20] Guest 1: [00:18:23] anything on Google before they now they don't allow it anymore on both platforms. And I might've played a wall in doing that. [00:18:30] Thinking that way is a skill that just gives you an edge in business and in life. Now I can give you ways of growth hack life. The way I learned dancing, the way I meet people, the way [00:18:40] I live my life, the way I get things, it is the growth hacking is like, Know, and it requires level of intelligence.

And then when you get started getting technical and requires skill as [00:18:50] well, it's not a learning 

Host: [00:18:51] technical skill. It's a great second. Um, you're almost like you're written my notes because we've talked about growth hacking in the context of a product. And you know, many of our listeners [00:19:00] don't currently sell products.

They may be in the services business, or they may be considering how to show up differently in their life. So I'd be curious to understand from your perspective, Mario, you know, how do you apply growth [00:19:10] hacking. Your life. You mentioned dancing, you've mentioned other areas of your, um, you know, outside of work pursuits.

What are some things that you apply to your life in a growth hacking context? 

Guest 1: [00:19:19] Cool. I'll give you [00:19:20] ones that are. Micro like it's direct growth hack my business partner. When we were in Turkey on new year's Eve, he was going quad bike [00:19:30] activity in Turkey with the team. And then he started going crazy. Was board fell off, broke his whole shattered his knee, and it was in Turkey and he needed to go [00:19:40] travel to another country to be able to do surgery.

Now, a book, the airlines everything's fine. And when he went to the airlines, they said, Hey, you know, you cannot actually do it. [00:19:50] Um, you can't bend your knee and that's a safety issue. They wouldn't allow him on the plane and his plane is booked and he said, go do surgery. If you wait too long, his bones start to [00:20:00] mend, start to heal themselves.

And if the heal themselves the wrong way in a deformed way, then he's screwed permanently. So he is stuck and most people were just [00:20:10] like, shit, what do I do? Um, there was. Practical ways of doing it, like going on another plane or anything. It just takes too long. In these three days in advance to book three [00:20:20] seats and the stretcher and all that, it's just too much work.

So I got the growth hacking team involved and we've got a growth hack Galloway onto the plane. First thing we did was we [00:20:30] automated LinkedIn messages and emails to all the employees of the airlines. I think it was like Turkish airlines, all of them at scale hundreds and hundreds of messages to send. An hour [00:20:40] max, half an hour, even 1530 minutes.

Um, and then we started contacting the manual way of the top, top people on the, on the platform. And then we [00:20:50] wrote an article quick, all of it very quickly. I have a big team, bought an article, started spreading it on social media about the situation, how they, cause they told him initially he can get on the plane.

And then when he [00:21:00] gets there, they're like, Hey, no, actually we made a mistake. You can't. So we started spreading that information and then we had one of our team members, Roy. I told them to call, um, the place where [00:21:10] they're not letting my business finally go through the gate, the security gate, and pretend to be one of the managers at Turkish airlines, we got some random name off the board and he pretended to be them.

He's [00:21:20] okay. He called and he said, Hey, I give them authority to go. We know him. It's all good. And that worked. So they let him through most likely because of that. So most people wouldn't do [00:21:30] that. It's a bit risky and it's a zero take. You need to think outside the box, but it's like the automated messages are aren't obvious squat.

Yeah, growth hacking includes a lot of automated messages on [00:21:40] slack, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, all of it. Email another growth hack is for our chef. Tim Ferriss is a great wife, hacker growth hacker, and [00:21:50] it's about how to learn. Now. I travel the world. Dessie Latin. I learned really, really put me out. I don't think anyone's.

So I'm considered a butt shot artist, which means you get invited to festivals, to nest [00:22:00] and people want to meet you and all that. So it's like a mini celebrity in the charter space. Most people take years to get there. I've gotten there in less than a year. The way I got there is just doing growth hacks along the [00:22:10] way.

When I go to festivals, I'd always bring a camera person to fill me all the time and make sure the lights are on the lights of the camera. So now everyone notices me at cameras filming me all the [00:22:20] time. It must that's looking at me. I'll get a lot of attention. People already assume I'm an artist. I try to sneak my way onto the stage, dancing on the stage with other artists that works really well.

[00:22:30] Start doing deals with festivals where I look, it I'll teach for free. I don't need money cause I'm, I'm fine financially. I just do workshop for free and come to the party. And then when I come, I try to bring as much. Yeah. [00:22:40] Attention as I can. And Ukraine, what we did was give it was a women's day. So we get like hundreds of flowers to hundreds of people at the festival.

So those are all ways I managed to [00:22:50] become an artist really quickly and get a lot of attention and their hacks. And then you can look at the way I learned this. I learned that really quickly. And what I did was I kind of reverse engineered it. I would always [00:23:00] feel myself, watch myself. I would try to mix different desktops together.

Um, what some guys do. I don't, but some guys that actually, cause there's a guy and a girl, the guy leads the go that's how [00:23:10] Latin desk works. Some guidance and interesting growth hack. And I think Tim Ferriss did it in Argentinian. Tango would be the follower. And that's [00:23:20] with a guy, many guys do it. I've dashed with guys that are trying to be a girl, because it's a great way to learn.

Once you don't have the girl moves, then you could move better as a guy lead better as a guy. Um, so those are all examples of [00:23:30] growth, hacks, life hacks. There's a great book called smart cuts. I haven't read it in years, but it's just around that same concept for our chef is a great book around that same concept.

[00:23:40] There's a lot of books about it, how to read quick, how to, you know, how to learn things quickly. Um, so yeah, like as a mentor, Growth hacking. I apply it on a, at least [00:23:50] a weekly basis in my life. And I'm a big fan of biohacking, but generally in my life, on a weekly basis, I just find ways to, to get things that [00:24:00] other people cannot get.

Like, for example, I was at a festival and I would be able to get backstage, like just understanding like gaming the system, the security guard looks for people that are [00:24:10] either acting. Or, you know, act like they're not meant to be there, but if you walk backstage pretending like you belong there and I've done this a couple of times through, cause you just act like you belong there.

Um, [00:24:20] catch me if you can, as a great movie showing up. So it's a way of living and it's got me ahead in life. She's gave me that advantage. It takes a lot to build. It took me [00:24:30] years to build those skill up, that confidence and that skill set and that ability to, to think of these things and a business. It's an incredible 

Host: [00:24:36] weapon.

Yeah. It illuminates a couple of things. So I think the [00:24:40] things I take away from your examples are many of us there's this, if you will, traditional way of doing things and there's this acceptable way of approaching certain challenges and [00:24:50] problems and a lot of what you're mentioning in terms of growth hacking.

Yeah. Just taking a non-traditional view to a traditional challenge and applying a different thinking to it. I [00:25:00] mean, most men who are learning to dance wouldn't think to dance as the female part in a partner dancing situation. But applying that methodology makes complete sense. You need to learn both parts, to [00:25:10] be able to understand the dynamic of the dance of how the interplay of two people works in a particular form.

It's also to your point, applying a lot of energy in a very short period of [00:25:20] time to something that you're trying to solve for. And I'm curious specifically for you, you know, there's lots of things that are coming up, popping up. We had a brief conversation before we hit [00:25:30] record around things like clubhouse.

And then I'm curious how you Mario assess the new things that are coming up and determined. What is worth spending time to [00:25:40] explore and what are things that you'd rather just kind of let see, go by? How do you make the determination in terms of where to spend your time, uh, knowing that it's so funny.

Yeah. 

Guest 1: [00:25:48] Great question, man. Really good question. [00:25:50] Really fricking good question. Okay. So first I growth hack myself to clubhouse to be the fastest growing person within a month. Within two, three weeks, I was the biggest [00:26:00] I had the biggest day. Thousands of people would listen to me every day, seven days a week, sober from a growth hacking.

We had all these different strategies, you know, getting the right people there, moving people [00:26:10] back to the audience and bringing them back up. So things, their followers that they're speaking again. So we do that meant multiple times. So it was pretty cool. And it's easy to go with hack brand new platforms.

And when I say [00:26:20] growth hacks, it's just ethical ways of doing it. Just thinking outside the box. Now your question is about how to know where to focus. Aren't a big fan of timing. The second best thing the [00:26:30] audience could do right now beyond learning growth hacking, this is a six minute exercise go to Google, right?

Bill gross. G R O S S T I M I N [00:26:40] G. And also bill gloss, Ted to ed. He did a Ted speech about the importance of timing in business timing, according to his research. And I, I agree with that. A [00:26:50] hundred percent timing is the most important factor for business success. More important than anything, a smarter guy than me and this study was pretty interesting, more important than the [00:27:00] teams, more important than the business plan than the fricking it and the funding.

Everything timing was number one factor that determined a businesses successful failure. If your last shoot you back [00:27:10] in 1995, which he did around that time, it doesn't matter how well you did. Timing's not right. The internet is too slow for videos. If you Falasha in 2000 and whatever, whenever YouTube [00:27:20] launched YouTube started as a dating website, but they pivoted to YouTube because the timing was right.

People needed that the internet was fast enough and getting faster clubhouse [00:27:30] two years ago, might've not blown up like it did during the pandemic. The timing is right. So getting a product launched or a business launch at the right [00:27:40] time gives you a massive advantage. In succeeding just increases the likelihood of succeeding, launching a restaurant right now, or making learning crypto and making [00:27:50] money in crypto.

Crypto is definitely much higher likely I'll try likely to make a return and longterm as well. Focusing on the blockchain technology, which [00:28:00] is blowing up is more likely to get a return than focusing on opening up a farm and then some random place like a normal, basic farm that have vertical farm. [00:28:10] Yeah, FaceTiming man.

Like all my businesses were based on that. I just, I got into crypto in 2017 at the peak of the hype and look at me now, law firm consulting firm, big name on [00:28:20] Bitcoin, holding big cloud platform, all the investments that I've made and stepping up as a CEO of the investment vehicle and NFC that's going public in June to [00:28:30] invest in NFTs.

Oh, that because I launched my crypto consulting firm IBC back in 2017. My first business truly was selling blenders and juicers high-end [00:28:40] lenders of juices at a time when they were booming in Australia, blowing up timing was right. We are growth factors. Timing is nothing. Wow. His blog or growth hacking is not [00:28:50] blowing up, but it's growing gradually.

And it just made sense. But most of my other product launches are ventures from Hey checks to Zen's, to guilt-free all these [00:29:00] businesses, north equities, which aren't, it's not my business. I'm just one of the shareholders there, but it was launched by my business partner just before the bull run in the stock market.

[00:29:10] A couple of years. And he's doing eight figures now I'm involved in it. So yeah, my luck, the timing for me is 

Host: [00:29:17] everything. Yeah. It's critical. And in a lot of different [00:29:20] trends come and go and catching the wave at the right time is a, is a very important piece of it. And to your point, you can definitely be too early into a market.

You can [00:29:30] certainly let the majority people be too late in the market. Um, and. No, in the context of the pandemic. One thing that we also discussed briefly off, off air was the [00:29:40] idea that the pandemic of course, has been a horrible tragedy in the human humanitarian context and in a public health context and a lot of cases, a social cause context.

[00:29:50] And it's also created a lot of opportunities for. Businesses for entrepreneurs, for organizations to recalibrate, to rebrand, to launch, to pivot, [00:30:00] uh, because the world has fundamentally changed at a rate that it hadn't before this period of time and trying to make sense of where the world is going. A lot of [00:30:10] organizations and individuals are making bets on things like cryptocurrency or virtual reality, or, you know, machine learning and in, in concepts that have been discussed perhaps in the years past, [00:30:20] but the environment wasn't quite right.

For a move at this point in time. I think that advice around timing is, is a really important piece. Um, I want to go back to a topic that [00:30:30] we discussed briefly. Um, and as you mentioned and gave examples of growth, hacking both in a business context, but also in a personal context, you gave some examples [00:30:40] around.

Actions or behaviors that some folks may find to be a little bit questionable in terms of an ethical piece of it. Um, they're not, they're not illegal. They're [00:30:50] not, you know, immoral, but there's some things where, again, this is accepted way of doing things. We have these rituals in society and in culture that we tend to adhere to, I'm [00:31:00] curious how, you know, you apply a moral compass to growth hacking and how you think through what you're going to do versus what you're not going to do.

Guest 1: [00:31:07] My moral compass is really saying. [00:31:10] If I don't hurt anyone and if I'm bringing value, then I will make noise doing so that's that simple. I think if someone goes [00:31:20] through Facebook or Google ads and does things by the book and then sells a shitty or scammy product, or someone makes a lot of noise, does automated messages ranked highly on Google by taking shortcuts, [00:31:30] by selling a good product, something of value and amen.

So that's, that's been my conclusion to this day. And I, I think that if I'm not aggressive, someone else [00:31:40] will be me being aggressive and, and having that growth hacking approach to life and business is a risk. It does, it does have a backlash sometimes. And I'll give you examples, but it's a risk worth taking.

[00:31:50] Cause whenever I enter something, I make noise. I get attention as sometimes I do have to deal with repercussions. Like big clouds are spending a lot of time on the cloud and. [00:32:00] I was talking about me now. No, one's talking to back. No, one's being talked about more on bigger than myself. Not all of it positive.

Some of it negative. Why? Because my aggressive [00:32:10] marketing bothered a few people and then, you know, some people start Chinese whispers and then it becomes me from being aggressively marketing, something on a stand or selling stamp and doing this and that [00:32:20] got a wrong, then I had to go and clarify it, show all the evidence and.

But I wouldn't have had to deal with those assumptions if I wasn't so aggressive [00:32:30] in marketing, because if you get an email or someone messaging and messaging and messaging, many people will immediately be like, oh, that's a scam. Even though what they're selling could be something really good, really ethical, not many.

Some people will [00:32:40] because it's a really small community, LinkedIn, Instagram, you don't have that issue, but that's the kind of an outcome of me being here. But then when people say [00:32:50] this guy is actually aggressive in marketing, but we would look at what he's done on the platform. And I brought eight figures, or I brought the seven bringing eight figures onto the platform, tens of millions of dollars to [00:33:00] be invested into a cloud and working with a few investors.

I'm building businesses on the platform. I've supported people that got scanned. I'm helping people not get scared. Like I've, I've done everything beyond. Right. [00:33:10] But I was aggressive in my marketing. So when people connected those dots, then they're like, hold on. This guy is legit. And it. But if I wasn't aggressive in the first place, you might say, [00:33:20] yeah, you would have gotten there anyway.

Just would have been slower. What I know everyone looks at the success stories. The potential of failing is really anyone starting a business you're most [00:33:30] likely going to fail is our numbers. Over 90% of businesses that look to raise capital, fail to raise capital that's in the U S. Let alone. When you go to [00:33:40] countries that don't have the same opportunities and then fund the businesses that raise capital from smart VCs that believe they will succeed or may succeed on the 90% fail.

[00:33:50] How do you turn those around to favor you? Cause there's really sexy to look at all those success stories of people that became billionaires and did this, but no one [00:34:00] looks at the metrics and no one looks at the people that failed the really smart, really capable people, barely enough money to pay the bills or just living a simple life.

Because it's really [00:34:10] tough out there. 7 billion people on the planet, finite resources, everyone is fighting for the same resources. That's how I look at it. Growth hacking gives me an edge. And if I'm doing things ethically, if I don't [00:34:20] hurt anyone on the way, and they'll get an edge of business. I've got no regrets whatsoever.

Host: [00:34:26] I appreciate that simplistic view to apply to a very [00:34:30] complex problem. And ultimately it's up to the individual to make that decision for themselves. You know, one thing that I hear a lot, so, you know, Mario, we didn't have a chance to [00:34:40] really go deep into my personal experience, but I spent a large portion of the early part of my career in the corporate world.

I grew up at a time when being part of a big enterprise with a big banner [00:34:50] was an aspirational target for many people coming out of unity. In colleges and you wanted the credibility of being with a big firm. I was, by the way, the anomaly in my family, most of my [00:35:00] family were entrepreneurs, real estate finance, uh, other industries as well.

And I chose the path of the quote unquote more traditional area. At the same time, I [00:35:10] found myself disenfranchised with that choice about 20 years in because I realized that. A lot of the things that I want to do to have impact weren't being [00:35:20] realized. But what I was actually being deployed to do was to help organizations drive earning statements or to, you know, process mergers and acquisitions.

And what I [00:35:30] want to do is actually affect more positive change and I want it to be. I wanted to be rewarded more closely to the true impact that I was having inside of an organization. So [00:35:40] I ultimately decided to leave and then launch a number of social enterprises. So as a consequence of that, I get a lot of corporate executives, business leaders, in some cases, [00:35:50] students who approach me and say, Matt, how did you make the transition?

How did you, can, you know, how did you shift your mindset from, you know, obviously a corporate mindset, very different than an [00:36:00] entrepreneurial growth mindset. How did you make that transition? How did you make that? Um, and a lot of the advice that I give to people very closely resembles the advice that you've provided today.

Um, [00:36:10] taking chances, being first to market where possible, um, you know, thinking through, you know, how to reverse engineer complex and complex problems with unique ways of [00:36:20] thinking. Um, and as I mentioned earlier, we're in a stage now of.  the, if you will, we're on the precipice. If not fully now into the fourth industrial revolution, the way [00:36:30] things have worked for the last 200 years will no longer apply and no longer have the same currency going.

I'm curious for someone like yourself, Mario, what are some [00:36:40] of the trends that you're looking at? What are some of the knowledge gaps that you're looking to close? What are some of the things that you're thinking about that you believe are going to be [00:36:50] ongoing trends into the future that you want to spend more time thinking?

Guest 1: [00:36:54] Um, instead of giving, just giving you trends, I'll actually give you sources that are really, really good. I'm not [00:37:00] affiliated with them. I'm just a customer. One of them is trends.co T R E N D S. Another one is exploding topics.com and there's many others. I'm part [00:37:10] of many. They break down trends for you on a weekly basis or monthly basis.

Glimpse is another one, G L I M P S E have found tremendous value in that I [00:37:20] lost a lot of businesses, got a lot of ideas, products from these sources, newsletters, whatever you want to call them. Now long-term trends long-term [00:37:30] shifts in our society. You know, they're not hard to spot. But they're hard to fathom.

Blockchain is an obvious one and I'm very involved in it. [00:37:40] Most people get excited about it when there's a high short-term high, but they forget about it. When there is a hype about blockchain, hasn't changed the potential hasn't changed people overestimate the short [00:37:50] term, but then she'll of evolution, not revolution of innovation, but they underestimate the [00:38:00] longterm.

And that second bite is what I care about has got incredible potential patron, only fans, monetizing content, the way [00:38:10] influencers monetize their content, it needs to be is changing. How am I invest in a company is actually playing a part in that. So those are two of many examples. [00:38:20] There is so many, like the list is endless.

It's about going through them. I gave you two sources. There's a lot more finding those longterm trends, finding a short term. Trend [00:38:30] within that long-term trend and just doubling down on that testing, different things, seeing what works, because when I got into Kik, I started with consulting, just random consulting, just a way to dip my [00:38:40] toes in the water.

Then I pivoted to fundraising more or marketing. And then I had the law firm that I started investing that I started, started off in different marketing services. And I [00:38:50] stepped up as a CEO now and moving to more corporate position. Then I got involved in a big class. So it started. And then I kept following the next opportunity, the next opportunity, all these different things [00:39:00] all within the umbrella of crypto and blockchain.

So find a big, long term umbrella and then find. Trends and opportunities within 

Host: [00:39:09] them. [00:39:10] It makes a lot of sense. And I'm curious, I want to ask the question in a, in a slightly different way, not so much in the context of trends, but in a context of if you will [00:39:20] competencies or attributes, what are some of the things that you think are, I don't want to say skills necessarily, but some of the attributes of successful people, [00:39:30] how do you think that's going to evolve into the future 

Guest 1: [00:39:32] attributes of successful?

Let's go with conscientiousness. Conscientiousness is one of the most important [00:39:40] characteristics for a successful person and it incorporates four things. Number one, being organized. Number two, I forgot, but [00:39:50] number three, number five, most important, or being organized, being a perfectionist and working hard.

And then there's one I forgot, but [00:40:00] the most important two out of those four things I want to focus. I'm working hard and working smart. So working hard is obvious to people doing the same things all [00:40:10] as being equal, no accent at all. Externalities being equal, Vail, the person that will continuously work longer and be consistent.

Consistency is [00:40:20] everything we'll obviously win. So that's an easy one. Working smart is the really tricky complex one, but it goes back to finding smart cuts through [00:40:30] things like growth. Working smart is doing the right thing, calibrating your competence heading in the right direction. So if you're really good at something, [00:40:40] but you're doing it in the wrong area, in the wrong industry, the wrong time, you're wasting your time and money and energy.

So what I would recommend for someone that [00:40:50] wants to be, you know, once I have a high likelihood of success is number one, find what it is that you want to do at timing comes in calibrating, that compass knowing exactly what to do. [00:41:00] I make consistently walking that direction, people that do this. So I don't have to have many more skills.

Um, their likelihood of succeeding is higher than. [00:41:10] I think 

Host: [00:41:10] that's great advice. Um, and I think it speaks to, um, just the, the sheer amount of opportunity that we all have going forward. Whatever you choose to spend your time [00:41:20] doing because of the context is now shifting and materially shifting, going forward.

It's an opportunity for us to look into the future and. What we're really passionate [00:41:30] about with where we see opportunity into the future and whether that is in a crypto space, whether that's moving into a more into e-commerce, whether that's looking at a traditional [00:41:40] industry and asking how it's going to be disrupted in this new kind of hybrid world that we're all living in.

I think it's an opportunity for us to be a lot more intentional. You know, I think that, you know, you've [00:41:50] raised a number of really, really interesting points over the course of our conversation, Mario. I want to thank you for your time. I want to thank you for being so service-minded, you've provided a lot of value and been very [00:42:00] thoughtful and intentional about providing depth to your, your answers.

Uh, and I just want to wish you a lot of success. I mean, I'm sure you're going to have it, but as you continue to write. [00:42:10] Transcend the traditional ways of doing things as you continue to try and apply new thinking to all problems. Um, and as you can do you need to find if you will, those shortcuts to success, just want to wish you a [00:42:20] lot of it and, uh, hope talk to you in real time.

Guest 1: [00:42:22] Man. I really appreciate your time. And I love the call questions,

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