How to Get What You Want - Lee Miller

Lee Miller is an adjunct professor at Columbia University, at Seton Hall University School of Management, and at USC. He’s a speaker, executive/ career coach, and consultant specializing in the areas of influencing, leadership, innovation, negotiation skills. 

He’s a graduate of Harvard Law School and is a 5 time recipient of the Seton Hall Business School’s Award for Teaching Excellence. He’s also the author of UP: Influence, Power and the You Perspective, and in a cool twist, co-authored, with his daughter, A Woman’s Guide To Successful Negotiating - a title selected by the Huffington Post as one of the "16 books Aspiring Women Leaders Need to Read."

Previously, Lee was the Chief Human Resources Officer at TV Guide, USA Networks and Barneys NY. He’s a frequent speaker who has appeared on Good Morning America, The Early Show, Today New York, Fox and Friends, Economy Watch and Morning Edition.

Together we covered a range of topics particularly relevant today. We talked about influencing in times of great innovation & its importance for leaders. We chatted virtual influence - and how we translate traditional thinking to reflect our zoom-centric world. And we discussed his books, the frameworks that underpin them & and how every person can use principles of negotiation to achieve more favourable outcomes - for everyone. 

We had a great discussion and I hope you enjoy it.

Lee Miller

Lee is an executive coach and corporate   trainer   in   the field   of   leadership, strategic influencing, sales, negotiating and innovation. He also offers workshops on strategic influencing and negotiating for leaders, including workshops on influencing and negotiating designed specifically for women leaders.

He is also an adjunct professor at Columbia University, University of Southern California and Seton Hall University’s Stillman School of Business, where he teaches graduate level courses in managerial influencing and negotiating as well as in managerial decision-making and human resources management.

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Thinking Inside the Box

Constraints drive innovation. Each week we’ll tackle the most complex issues related to work & culture.

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Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Guest 1: [00:00:00] Instead, if you show people how they can get what they want done, and yet still comply, you will be [00:00:10] a very valuable resource and will have tremendous influence. People will come to you for your help. And of course, if they come to you for your help, you [00:00:20] can then in terms of, uh, influencing tool reciprocate by asking them.

For the help you need, and that will give you great influence within an [00:00:30] organization

[00:00:40] Host: [00:00:44] constraints. Drive innovation. Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of thinking inside the [00:00:50] box, the show where we discuss complex issues related to work. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at bento, hr.com, [00:01:00] wherever you find your favorite podcasts by searching, thinking inside the box.

And now in virtual reality, each Thursday at 5:00 PM Pacific standard time [00:01:10] in Microsoft's old space. We are in today's episode. I chat with Lee Miller, an adjunct professor at Columbia university, Seton [00:01:20] hall, university, school of management and us. Lee's also a speaker and executive and career coach and a consultant specializing in the [00:01:30] areas of influence leadership, innovation and negotiation skills.

Lee is a graduate of Harvard law school and is a [00:01:40] five-time recipient of the Seton hall business schools award for teaching excellence. He's also the author of up influence power and the you [00:01:50] perspective. And then kind of a cool twist. He co-authored with his daughter, a woman's guide to successful negotiating a title selected by the Huffington post.

As one of the 16 [00:02:00] books aspiring women leaders need to read. Previously. Lee was the chief human resources officer at TV guide USA networks and [00:02:10] Barneys New York. And he's appeared previously on good morning, America, the early show today, New York, Fox and friends economy [00:02:20] watch and morning edition. And together we covered a wide range of topics, particularly relevant today.

We chatted about [00:02:30] influencing in the times of great innovation and it's important for leaders. We talked about. Virtual influence and how we translate traditional [00:02:40] thinking and practices to reflect our now zoom centric world. And we discussed his books, the frameworks that underpin them and how every person can use principles of [00:02:50] negotiation to achieve more favorable outcomes for everyone.

We had a great conversation and I really hope you enjoy it. So without further ado, 

Guest 1: [00:02:59] Lee Miller. [00:03:00] Hello, Lee, how are you doing today? Good 

Host: [00:03:02] afternoon. I'm excited for this conversation. Uh, we had a chance to connect a few months back. I had the great privilege of joining [00:03:10] your HR class at Columbia university and it led to us having.

I learned among other things that, yes, you used to be an HR [00:03:20] executive and you're certainly an accomplished educator and consultant and a multiple time author, your two books up influence [00:03:30] power and you perspective. I thought it was fantastic in terms of its use of making the complex simple, which ties perfectly into the concept here of thinking inside the box.

[00:03:40] Um, but what really stood out for me, Lee, I'll be honest in amongst a sea of other business literature. When I learned that your second book. A woman's guide [00:03:50] to successful negotiating. You actually co-authored with your daughter. That was a really interesting piece of information. And I'm eager to get into that story [00:04:00] along with all the rest of the things in your background.

Um, but before I do that, perhaps you want to take a few minutes to introduce you. 

Guest 1: [00:04:06] Sure. Uh, I am, uh, as you said, a professor, I teach at [00:04:10] Columbia as well as at USC and Seton hall university. Um, my focus, my business is I'm an executive coach and a corporate trainer focusing [00:04:20] on leadership and influencing and what I consider the sub-categories that fall within those two, uh, concepts, uh, [00:04:30] innovation.

Negotiating sales all fall under the general rubric of influencing. And that's, that's my focus. And frankly, [00:04:40] despite having been a CHR of a number of large organizations, having been, you know, an author, as you said, the thing that. Really [00:04:50] come to culminate my, uh, uh, career is that I've decided the most important thing for anyone's career or frankly, to have impact in the [00:05:00] world is your ability to influence others.

And so it's really all the things I teach, whether it be change management, whether it be leadership, whether it be [00:05:10] sales, all focus around, how do we influence others? 

Host: [00:05:13] Which is frankly a timeless topic. I think we discussed offline just how [00:05:20] resonant that concept is today. I mean, it's always been in narratives that always been in business literature and certainly as an HR professional myself influence [00:05:30] formed a large part of my practice.

Growing in importance, and I'm really eager to dig into the specifics of it with you, because I think you bring a unique perspective to [00:05:40] the competency, the application of it, and ultimately the challenges that face leaders and organizations going forward and deploying it. Um, I think I, where I'd like to start [00:05:50] though, is the applications for influence.

Well, as I mentioned earlier in this conversation, I think you just have done a great job of taking what is, can be a bit of a, you know, a [00:06:00] 10 cent word, a bit of a nebulous term, and really provide some structure around it. How has your background and your experiences informed the way that you look at influence [00:06:10] and how do you help people deploy it in a thoughtful way in their individual practices, but also in their broader organization?

Well, 

Guest 1: [00:06:17] it came home to me when I was [00:06:20] the, uh, uh, head of HR. Although I started my career basically doing labor relations, uh, which is all about influencing. It's all about influencing both. You are [00:06:30] management, uh, as well as not only the unions leadership, but the union membership as a whole. So it really taught me a tremendous [00:06:40] amount about organizational influencing and it really underlined.

The, the concept that I built, all my thinking on. And as you said [00:06:50] earlier on, uh, influencing, it's been around forever. There's been lots of different ways that people have taught. It, looked at it, uh, [00:07:00] focused on it. And what I've tried to do is take all those different views of, of how we influence and build a practical model.

And as I said, the you [00:07:10] perspective concept is the building block. And most of them. We, uh, um, think about, uh, of that influencing is I'm going to convince you to [00:07:20] do, do what I want by seeing things my way by building a, a very logical case. Well, when I was in HR, when I was the head of HR, I realized. [00:07:30] We don't bring to the table.

A lot of what I would say, hierarchical power and, and I think hierarchal power while a significant form of [00:07:40] influencing is really on the wane these days. Uh, we don't really, uh, except perhaps in the military and some other institutions. Don't really get to [00:07:50] wield a lot of hierarchical power, but HR never had hierarchical power.

Uh, we, we really couldn't tell the business people what to do. We had to [00:08:00] gain their support. And, uh, in that context, I really developed my thinking about influencing. And these days when I [00:08:10] teach senior HR executives, that's the focus is how to business people. For whom you must gain support of your ideas of [00:08:20] your, um, frankly, the things you want to do for your people and with your people.

It's not enough to just say, well, this is the right things to do. Cause they [00:08:30] will agree with you, but frankly, they've got a limited amount of resources, eliminate amount of time, and they're going to always set priorities [00:08:40] and doing the right thing by your employees while it will always be a priority. It will never be the number one priority until you can [00:08:50] connect it to some other priority that, that they have.

After which they will give you the money and give you the support you need. And so 

Host: [00:08:58] true. And it, I deeply [00:09:00] resonate with that concept because, you know, as I progress throughout my HR career, I certainly had my own stumbling blocks. You know, I recall being in my early twenties and being [00:09:10] in my very first HR job where I'll be honest, I was probably a bit of a handful to deal with.

It was at a narrow where HR. And the leaders I was working [00:09:20] with still very much resisted the use of things like technology and data, because they believe that those items were the domain of it and finance respectively. And that HR was really [00:09:30] focused on the people. And despite the fact that I had strong feelings, that we could be using technology and data in a thoughtful way, in a way [00:09:40] that was human centric in a way that would empower us by automating that manual tedious administration that nobody ever liked.

I learned [00:09:50] that the, my approach to influence wasn't landing, that I was kind of told to, you know, sit back and watch and learn. And that [00:10:00] eventually I would, I would gain a deeper understanding of why we do things the way that we do spoiler alertly I never actually arrived at that conclusion, but I did learn how to be quiet and I did learn how to [00:10:10] observe better.

And yeah, it's, uh, it's an interesting conversation because. As I've progressed through my career, I was then tasked [00:10:20] with building my own HR teams. And I would often find myself at odds with other people in other functions of my department or other peers, because they prioritize a lot of [00:10:30] cases, academic pursuits, or they would prioritize certifications.

And there's nothing wrong with either of those by the way. But I always valued. Influence above all, [00:10:40] because if you had a PhD in organizational behavior, but you couldn't use it to influence a stakeholder, you were of limited use to me in the companies that I worked in, because then it would require me to come [00:10:50] in as an escalation to do that work for you.

So aside from a very research research oriented role, or a very individual contributor role influence, always to me was such a [00:11:00] key part of our profession. The other reason I think was importantly. If I have some gripes and I have many about the HR profession is that some of us still lean [00:11:10] very heavily on policy and compliance to as a lever to wield influence.

So it's, Hey, you have to do this because it's a policy or it's [00:11:20] law or, um, it's the way things are done here. And all of those things may very well be true, but by making that argument. Initially, I think you're doing yourself [00:11:30] a disservice from an influence perspective by demonstrating to your stakeholders that you don't have.

Not really interested in engaging in a dialogue where you understand their [00:11:40] perspective, where you're seeking to try and find some form of middle ground. And ultimately that every conversation that we have, if there's not immediate alignment, [00:11:50] it's going to be adversarial and binary and. You know, as a profession, both in HR, but more broadly as leaders, we need to understand that the world now is moving much [00:12:00] faster, that things are much more iterative and that there needs to be an ongoing dialogue about how things need to evolve and shift and change.

And because of that, I just see [00:12:10] such a bright future for the, for the terms of influence and persuasion. 

Guest 1: [00:12:14] I think that's an excellent point. If your only source of influence is basically to enforce [00:12:20] compliance, it's very limited and you will not be viewed as other than an annoyance, frankly, by the people who are trying to get [00:12:30] things done.

Uh, while compliance is part of HR. Um, toolkit that they have to, uh, uh, ensure compliance your [00:12:40] real influencing power again. And this goes to, to the basic point of view perspective, understanding. Is a value [00:12:50] to the, your, your business partners. Uh, and what is a value to them is your ability to show them how they can get what they [00:13:00] want done and still be in compliance, as opposed to why compliance, prevents them from doing what they want.

It gives you a limited amount of [00:13:10] power. Uh, but that's it, you know, you'll be, as I said, you'll be an annoyance. You'll be telling people why they can't do something. Instead if you [00:13:20] show people how they can get what they want done, and yet still complete apply, you will be a very valuable resource and we'll have tremendous [00:13:30] influence.

People will come to you for your help. And of course, if they come to you for your help, you can then. Uh, in terms of, uh, [00:13:40] influencing tool reciprocate by asking them for the help you need. And that will give you great influence within an organization. And these are tools that I teach how you [00:13:50] do that, but it all starts with, as I said, that building block of what I call the you perspective, understanding what's important to the people you are seeking to [00:14:00] influence, and then as, uh, uh, convincing them to do what you want.

In terms of showing them how, what you want them to [00:14:10] do, supports what they value, what they care about. What's important to them, you perspective, as opposed to the me perspective, do this because I think it's important. 

Host: [00:14:19] Yeah. [00:14:20] That's and that's just, it's so transparent when you approach things from the me perspective and people see right through.

Um, and one of the, again, pitfalls of being an [00:14:30] HR is that, that if you D if you deploy influence, well, of course things can go quite well. But if you don't deploy influence, well, you can slow progression. You [00:14:40] can limit your impact in the organization, because as you said, a few times, your stakeholders may just decide to ignore what you're saying.

Take a different direction. [00:14:50] And if you're being tasked with influencing that stakeholder, that's where things become more challenging. You know, Lee, as you're speaking, I I'm, I'm reminded of a couple of books that I read earlier in my [00:15:00] career. I wasn't aware of the, uh, Mr. Lee Miller at this point in time.

But, um, there are two books that I know that you have likely read yourself and they are getting past no. And getting to yes. [00:15:10] Yes. And you know, the William Yuri books were very instrumental. In my early, you know, progression in terms of HR, but more broadly stakeholder [00:15:20] management and influencer, and a couple of key points that for me, still resonate to this day and I encourage people.

One to check out your book. It's excellent. I think it's great. And for those who [00:15:30] are looking for additional resources to check out these two cars, a couple of passages that to me, still stand the test of time. Is this idea of building a golden bridge? That's one thing Lee, I really [00:15:40] struggled with early in my tenure as an HR professional, for those who aren't familiar with the term, it's the idea that whatever.

Conclusion, you arrive at whatever negotiated settlement that you [00:15:50] arrive at with your stakeholder, that you have to build a bridge for that person so that they can take the resolution back to their constituencies in a [00:16:00] way that allows them to maintain and retain a sense of pride and purpose, um, and have in some cases a win.

So that. It doesn't have to [00:16:10] become a binary, win, lose conversation because in a lot of cases, and this is where I struggled, it was about right versus wrong. It was very binary and I felt that I was right. And if [00:16:20] you didn't agree, then we had a problem. And my job was to influence you to do exactly what I wanted you to do.

I didn't give much consideration to what that meant for my other parties [00:16:30] after we came to that agreement. And I learned the hard way that if at the end of the conversation, You haven't given someone that sense of true [00:16:40] partnership, um, of true collaboration that they leave that interaction with a really sour taste in their mouth and they'll [00:16:50] approach they'll remember that.

And they'll approach future combinations with you remembering that, that feeling that you had, and it makes everyone. Future interaction, just that much more difficult to gain [00:17:00] consensus, to truly build a relationship, to get buy-in. So it speaks to your point around really applying a high degree of emotional intelligence [00:17:10] and nuance to anything as it pertains to, um, influence.

Guest 1: [00:17:14] Yes, I, I was very taken, obviously I studied, uh, with the people who wrote getting the S when I was at [00:17:20] Harvard, I was very taken. By it, my model includes actually a lot of the, the concepts that they, uh, taught us, [00:17:30] you know, when I was at Harvard, but I built a bigger model. And because I, I think the getting the S motto's excellent.

And then certainly what [00:17:40] you talk about in terms of the golden bridge really is part of the U perspective. In other words, if you are. Influencing [00:17:50] in terms of what they care about and show that showing them why, what you want really supports what they care about. They always go away feeling that they're are.

[00:18:00] Host: [00:18:02] Hey everyone. Hi, it's Matt here and I hope you're enjoying today's discussion before we continue. I wanted to make you aware of our latest [00:18:10] creative project, HR in VR, every Thursday at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time. All connect with technology pioneers, business [00:18:20] executives from the world's most iconic brands and industry thought leaders to discuss the future of immersive technologies like virtual rail.

And their impact on [00:18:30] future workplace. In partnership with Microsoft we're broadcasting each episode on LinkedIn live and in front of a live studio audience in [00:18:40] Altspace. Joining is easy for LinkedIn users. Simply follow my account, Matt in VR and stay tuned Thursdays at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard [00:18:50] time for the LinkedIn lives.

Or for a truly immersive live experience, visit alt vr.com to download Altspace on [00:19:00] your Mac, PC or VR headset, and join us live in our studio audience. There you'll have a chance to ask questions, meet me and our [00:19:10] incredible guests and connect with others from the comfort of your own home. This is the future folks.

And I hope to be part of it. And I'll link the details [00:19:20] for HR and VR, along with all other relevant information in the show notes of this podcast. And now back to our discussion.

[00:19:30] Guest 1: [00:19:32] My model is bigger than the getting the yes model because they're getting the S model, which was very, um, I [00:19:40] would say innovative in its day, uh, because it really focused on win-win negotiating, uh, and, and brought that [00:19:50] concept, which I guess had existed before it, but really brought it out in a practical.

Way that people could actually use it. [00:20:00] But my model actually is more of in addition to the you perspective, uh, which applies to all of it has three components. One of which is kind of the [00:20:10] getting to yes. Win-win model, but it has two other components. Uh, I call it convince, collaborate, and create collaborate really is the getting to yes.

[00:20:20] Model, um, of how do I make this a win-win for both of us, it actually requires. Changing your proposal [00:20:30] in ways that make it better for the other ones. Giving them a win, uh, in ways of course, that don't undermine, what's really important to you. So [00:20:40] you focus on what's important to them. You give them that and you get what you want in, in a kind of a win-win scenario, the other two aspects.

[00:20:50] So that build on that. It is the, the convinced part of it, which is not about really changing your proposal. And I think this is something [00:21:00] that, that is absolutely critical and influencing in the, in the, in the corporate world. It doesn't require you to convince by changing your [00:21:10] proposal, giving something.

Else, uh, that, um, perhaps, you know, uh, you don't want to give, but it feels necessary to, to put the [00:21:20] agreement together. It's about re characterizing how you present your proposals. And this is a major part of influencing, uh, [00:21:30] presenting it in terms of what they care about. And let me kind of think through a good example of that when, when you're in a budget [00:21:40] situation, right.

And you're trying to convince the CFO to give you more money on beyond your, beyond your budget. The [00:21:50] CFO really cares about staying on budget. So the way you're going to get the CFO to give you more budget is to guarantee that at the end of the year, you'll be [00:22:00] at that ad budget. You won't be over budget.

So there's no way you get the CFO to really want to give you more budget because he's already committed. [00:22:10] To what the budget is. Uh, so if you want, so the convinced way of doing that is to show him how at the end of the year, [00:22:20] you'll be on budget, as opposed to saying, give me more and I'll do something else for you.

But the other part, and the third prong [00:22:30] of the three-part a model I used would be create. And that in this case, in the, in the, if you want more budget, [00:22:40] About negotiating or influencing somebody else you're talking to the wrong person. And that's a very important part of influencing. If the CFO is not the [00:22:50] right person to talk to because he or she sees the world in terms of staying on budget all year, you want to talk to somebody who sees the world in terms of [00:23:00] actually generating more revenue.

And regardless of the budget, it's more about ROI. And that would be like the CEO. So you go to the sea. I said, give me more, [00:23:10] more budget. And I will generate five times more revenue than the additional budget you give me. So it's understanding what each person cares [00:23:20] about and create would be about basically talking to a different person who sees the world differently and convince would be about basically [00:23:30] presented.

In terms of, um, what the particular individual cares most about. 

Host: [00:23:36] It makes a ton of sense and it necessitates a [00:23:40] high amount of emotional intelligence and empathy and it necessitates patience. And it's one term that I know we've discussed offline is that [00:23:50] influence broadly takes time. It's very difficult in today's era of misinformation, even though things are moving so quickly to truly build lasting influence.

[00:24:00] At an individual level and certainly at a collective level and your, you know, broad approach factors in a lot of the key elements that you see populating [00:24:10] everything from change management practices to certainly transformational change more broadly. And I think, as I mentioned before, provides a really holistic framework to looking at it from a [00:24:20] number of different perspectives, because, you know, you can't take a piece of that.

And hope that it's going to have success. You need to frankly apply the whole model, or you're going to find [00:24:30] yourself stumbling at various intervals of your, of your effort. And it's because you're facing significant headwinds. When you're trying to influence people to change their [00:24:40] behaviors, everything in our body and our mind is telling us to do things.

No the way we've always done them to go back to predictive bull tactics and [00:24:50] measures of success. And then when someone comes along and says, Hey, I want you to change that. It takes up a lot of energy to make any kind of change, no matter how small or large it is. [00:25:00] And the, the art and the science combined to achieve a proper, you know, influence state really speaks to your, to your point [00:25:10] around this broader concept of influence.

And I'm curious for me, Great prompts a question, obviously in the last 18 months, the world's gone through a significant amount of [00:25:20] force change. So nobody wanted this pandemic to occur and certainly organizations, their leaders and their teams went through a lot of change that [00:25:30] was compelled by extension of social distancing requirements and public health crises.

And then in a lot of cases, economic crises. And one of the major shifts that we made [00:25:40] is that organizations moved to more of a virtual or hybrid work setting where a lot of work was being performed now in the home, as opposed to being in the office. We didn't have the benefits of [00:25:50] co-location. We didn't have the proverbial water coolers to stand beside, to meet with people before the meeting and after the meeting to influence, you know, outcomes or conversations or [00:26:00] things of that nature.

And we switched everything over to a digital piece, which while providing the benefits. Access by democratizing access to a broader audience that wasn't [00:26:10] limited by geography, necessitated a greater degree of intentionality, because you can no longer pop by a virtual water cooler zoom call. You have to schedule time with somebody in the [00:26:20] calendar.

You have to agree to that and meet with that person. You have to usually have an agenda. So it, it, it removes. More informal, organic influence. That [00:26:30] was frankly, a lot of the currency and organizations and replaced it with much more of that kind of thoughtful, intentional approach to influence. And I'm curious as you look [00:26:40] at the current state, but also the future state, how your thinking evolves and perhaps adapts to reflect more of a virtual or hybrid model.

I've 

Guest 1: [00:26:49] been thinking a [00:26:50] lot about this, and I'm working on an article about this right now, the future of work in terms of co-location in VR versus virtual. And I'm seeing what [00:27:00] I'm seeing is that, and to my surprise, a lot of companies are pushing back to Nope, we're [00:27:10] going back to in the office. And I think that is going to be problematic.

In, in some ways, because it doesn't truly [00:27:20] take advantage of the, uh, the value of a hybrid, uh, interactions. Uh, and they're going to be other companies who are basically going to insist [00:27:30] on no, we're going to stay all virtual. Uh, I think both of those approaches are not going to work. Uh, I think you're gonna need for [00:27:40] most, I mean, every company has to individual and size makes a big difference type of work makes a big difference.

But I think the most successful companies, especially as you get larger, [00:27:50] are going to find a balance between. In-person and virtual, there are a lot of things that work better virtually. There are a lot of things that frankly, [00:28:00] uh, you have to do virtually because you're not call it located. You, we work in an international world.

I find, for instance, in my coaching, uh, now I [00:28:10] find actually a, that coaching virtually is very powerful. It may be even better than coaching in person, but I [00:28:20] expect, uh, to, and I'm starting to, to go to a hybrid model of coaching. In other words, I think, especially in the, initially you [00:28:30] need some, if you can, you know, it's not absolutely required because you can connect virtually on, there are tools and I teach some of them how to connect virtually, but it, it [00:28:40] it's useful.

If you have one or two sessions initially with somebody, when I coach to really get to know them in a different way than [00:28:50] in a lot quicker, I think you get to know them then if you're doing it virtually and then you can move to a more virtual, uh, kind of coaching, which has some, some tremendous [00:29:00] benefits of simply.

You can really have a session, right? Just in time session, so to speak. So instead of, I I'll meet every [00:29:10] other Wednesday with somebody, I can, you know, some emergency comes up, we can have a coaching session, you know, uh, right then and there, you can call me in the morning. [00:29:20] We can figure it out and to have a coaching session right before whatever's happening is going to happen.

So I think that hybrid. Works very well in coaching. It's going to work very [00:29:30] well. I think in terms of, of the business world as well, some people be all virtual because their jobs will allow it it'll be more task oriented, some will [00:29:40] be all co-located because they really do need that interaction. That serendipity, that, that happens, uh, being co-located and some will be a mix.

[00:29:50] And for those who need to collaborate. We'll do training and coaching as to how to use those tools. Because the influencing tools we use [00:30:00] virtually are exactly the same as the influencing tools we use in, in a, in person, except they're applied very differently yet they, as you [00:30:10] said, they have to be more intentional.

You have to think it through ahead of time. You, you, the order in which you talk to people is actually more important virtually than [00:30:20] it is in person. So. W we have many more tools, but we really have to teach people how to use them. [00:30:30] We have to think through how we're going to organize them. And I think most importantly, it's not about reverting cause, cause there's an instinct right now for some people [00:30:40] to revert to all in, in, in person.

And this. Kind of a different group of people we want. I liked this hybrid that I [00:30:50] liked is all virtual and they want to stay, you know, that they like working at, out of, uh, uh, Aspen, uh, and not having to commute into the office. So. It's [00:31:00] about finding out what's right. And truly understanding that the influencing principles and teaching people how to use them will allow us to maximize our, [00:31:10] uh, effort no matter how we structure our workplace.

Like 

Host: [00:31:14] a lot of us I'm sitting here on the sidelines and I'm eagerly observing what's happening inside of organizations. Right. [00:31:20] And we've been hosting at bento HR since the later part of 2020, uh, essentially biweekly focus groups with senior HR leaders. And [00:31:30] the purpose of those focus groups has been to encourage knowledge sharing relationships, community, because as you mentioned, we're going through this significant [00:31:40] fundamental shift to work.

And a consequence of that is that. Many of the HR leaders who are tasked with designing architecting, deploying and sustaining [00:31:50] culture and organizations are at a loss on what to do next. So we believe that by putting people together in the same room, but that knowledge sharing and that best practice sharing can go a [00:32:00] long way to helping accelerate the path to, you know, some form of, um, newness, if you will, an organization.

And one of the themes that's come up time. And [00:32:10] again is a concern by HR leaders in their inability or their concerns about their ability to influence senior leadership on what to do upon [00:32:20] an eventual return to work. And here's how that story goes. Lee, in a lot of cases, let's be, let's be really honest in a lot of cases during the pandemic senior leaders and [00:32:30] organizations have been.

In an organizational context, the least affected personally by the pandemic. Many of them do not have school aged children. [00:32:40] Many of them live in better situations in terms of having houses with offices. Um, many of them have the ability to [00:32:50] delegate tasks to other members of their team upon request. When you contrast that with your traditional, if you will individual country.

Their life and their lifestyle. It looks very [00:33:00] different to a traditional executive in today's world. I'm painting things with broad strokes at the same time. Many of the, despite all those encumbrances, many of the [00:33:10] individual contributors that I mentioned to your point have really come to appreciate the flexibility and the agility afforded from a more hybrid setting that they can better integrate work and [00:33:20] life because the idea of work-life balance was a fallacy to begin with.

So the idea of work-life integration takes on a greater meaning when you can drop your kids off at school, come back and get an hour of work. [00:33:30] Done may pick the kids up from daycare, get two hours of work done, you know, then you're cooking dinner for the family and then they go to bed and you get some more work done.

You're not having [00:33:40] to adhere to a tradition, gentle nine to five schedule, and you still are able to put in the effort that you would have otherwise, but it's an, a more flexible and adaptable and agile. [00:33:50] So they, we hear, we hear that feedback consistently. There's tons of studies that can point to Microsoft being one that points to a boat.

65% of the [00:34:00] 30,000 people that they mentioned are eager for some form of remote remote work after the pandemic at the same time. 70% of them do want [00:34:10] to come back to the office in some way, shape or form, albeit on a more intermittent basis to maintain that culture, to maintain those relationships that build that comradery, [00:34:20] contrast that with senior leaders, many of them prefer.

To be in the office because as I mentioned before, they weren't as negatively affected by the shift [00:34:30] to working from home. That being said, it's much more difficult to be a leader of a remote team than a, a co-located team. I've done both. [00:34:40] It is just more difficult when you have to be more intentional about your communications, about your performance management, about your delegation, when you can't rely upon.

Popping by somebody's desk for a [00:34:50] quick second to ask them something or to instruct them to do something or give some feedback. And many leaders grew up in an era where the co-location was the way you build [00:35:00] culture, where digitally. Vehicles for communication only came online later. So they've adapted to those tools, but their preference still is in person communication.

[00:35:10] Whereas many of their more junior staff, digital communication to them is akin to in-person communication. They're digital natives, and they feel the same sense of connection [00:35:20] and belonging, even though it's a digital interface. And HR people find themselves at the intersection of these two disparate groups, having to [00:35:30] mediate conversations where leaders want people back in the office, their employees want people to be, to have more flexibility.

And they're running into the challenge and a lot of [00:35:40] organizations. The business results over the course of the last year, actually don't point to a huge necessity to get people back to the office. I [00:35:50] talked to an HR leader yesterday that works for a large organization in north America, who they had a record year in revenue.

They had a record year in terms of, um, you know, low attrition. They had a record year in [00:36:00] terms of customer retention. Engagement scores are high pulse surveys, scores are, are pointing all in the right direction. And despite that. The senior leadership in the [00:36:10] organization cannot wait to co-locate their workforce, despite the protestations of people who are now raising concerns around childcare and eldercare and things of that nature.

So I think [00:36:20] it's going to be a very interesting space to evolve as we consider this, you know, to your point, this meshing of old versus new, and I would echo your sentiments. I think we need to avoid [00:36:30] the temptation to. Just simply go back to the way things once were, because you know, that would have been possible if we'd done this for three months, but now, now we're going on to the second year of [00:36:40] this.

We have shifted behaviors. Fundamentally we have given people a significant enough sample size to establish what works for them and what doesn't. And I worry that the organizations [00:36:50] that blindly make a decision without engaging their staff, miss the opportunity. To use these principles of influence and that ultimately will lead [00:37:00] to in the short term, lower productivity, but ultimately greater attrition and perhaps some significant headwinds in the future financially.

So, you know, I share your sentiments and, you know, [00:37:10] I'm eager to see how organizations respond during these challenging times. 

Guest 1: [00:37:13] It will be interesting. Uh, it, it will be interesting to see how this evolves because we're not going back [00:37:20] to the way it was. I, and by the same token, we're not staying the way we are.

So it's going to be somewhere in between. But think about [00:37:30] this, HR has influenced it's true influence because of that has increased dramatically because you, yes, they may see it as [00:37:40] a, uh, you know, more work for them. And this is hard work, but there's so much more important in mediating that cause we're going to have to figure it out.

[00:37:50] Who works best at home who works best in the office? How, what type of work is best done at home? What type of work is best done in the office [00:38:00] and kind of mix and match, uh, the people who want to do each of those things and come up with a, as I said, kind of a hybrid of both. So, [00:38:10] uh, it'll be very interesting and it's going to be very.

That brings me to, uh, uh, another point that I think is very important, uh, in, in terms of [00:38:20] the training. One of the things that, that, that I've come to realize over the years is organizations. Uh, HR [00:38:30] executives are really focused on systems and top down, you know, how, how should this work from the top down?

And I think there's [00:38:40] only so much you can figure out from the top down, uh, how best to organize your office is to a large extent for the most [00:38:50] successful companies is going to be bottom up. You know, we're going to see individuals are going to show what they can do best from home when they need to be [00:39:00] co-located.

And to the extent they're having input. You're going to get the best results. And in that sense, they need the influencing skills. I mean, I spend [00:39:10] most of my training and coaching of executives on how to improve their influencing skills, how they can be more effective, influencing up, influencing their [00:39:20] peers, influence the people who work for them.

Okay. Uh, that's mostly what I do in my coaching and training, but I found. That what is [00:39:30] really powerful and important. And I've gotten some of my clients to, uh, embrace it is training your workforce on how to influence [00:39:40] so they can influence up. They can influence how best to do their work. They can take control of their own careers.

And frankly, in the world of innovation, I found this particularly [00:39:50] powerful is the people. It's not a lack of innovation within the organization. Uh, innovative ideas. There's lots of them, uh, within the [00:40:00] organization and people at the lower levels at the first levels who are actually doing things, have tremendous amount of innovative ideas.

The problem is they never get support from, and they don't know how to get support [00:40:10] from them for it. And therefore those ideas die and somebody else in some other organization, Gets their first, uh, to their great, uh, disadvantage people who [00:40:20] had those ideas originally. And for instance, Microsoft, uh, had the personal computer way before apple did and yet, because, uh, uh, [00:40:30] they, they were unable to influence, uh, in gain the support that whole area was shut down and they walked away from it, [00:40:40] uh, because the, the group that was, um, Basically championing it and piloting it.

Uh, couldn't influence top management to [00:40:50] support it. And so they pulled the funding and, you know, that's, uh, there goes the future of the personal committee. So what I find in, whether it [00:41:00] be in, in the areas of, uh, diversity and inclusion or in the areas of career development, or in the years of innovation, if you train the people bottom up on how [00:41:10] to influence and gain support to their ideas for their career goals.

It's it's tremendously effective. Uh, and so at the same time, we're teaching [00:41:20] organizations, we're consulting with organizations on how they can be more open in more to innovation, how they can be, uh, better in the, [00:41:30] in the world of diversity inclusion. I think it's equally as important to train your employees on how to influence, to, uh, gain the support that they [00:41:40] need for them.

I think you're 

Host: [00:41:41] right. And I think it raises another interesting question, Lee, that I think you have a unique insight on. You've spent number of years as an [00:41:50] educator and have seen cohorts come and go and enter into universities across the United States and then enter into the workforce afterwards. And I'm curious how [00:42:00] your view of influence has changed.

If at all, or perhaps maybe a better question is how do you think your students [00:42:10] influence or sorry, views of influence have shifted from when you started to, you know, maybe present day. Okay. 

Guest 1: [00:42:16] We start with the, uh, I would say two things. [00:42:20] One the old hierarchical model that you should listen to, people who've been around longer who have more experience.

Uh, I won't say that was ever a hundred [00:42:30] percent, but it's, it's way down, uh, in the 10% now you don't get a lot of, uh, influence simply because you've been doing this for awhile. This is how we've [00:42:40] always done it. Works a whole lot less these days than it ever did. And I'm not sure it worked that well. Uh, even when I was younger, but it doesn't work at all these [00:42:50] days.

Uh, so people, the, the younger cohorts that, that I I've been teaching, uh, they want to be heard, you know, interestingly enough, [00:43:00] They don't have to be followed, but they want to be heard. They want to feel that they have been, their ideas have been listened to even, and in the end, if you don't go along with their ideas, [00:43:10] they want to kind of know why they want to have a reason that I find that, that they are very willing to listen, very willing to follow, very willing to [00:43:20] learn.

It's not going to simply be at like my mom used to say, because I said so that doesn't work in today's world. And so [00:43:30] you're influencing skills to bring in millennials to gain their, uh, engagement, to gain their support for an idea. It takes a little longer and it requires more [00:43:40] effort. Uh, so I think corporate communications, uh, is so important.

Um, you know, I had a, an issue just the other day. There was a [00:43:50] lot of problems for, for one of my clients, because. The workforce learned of a major change through the news, basically. Uh, and that's [00:44:00] never a good idea. Uh, and it wasn't so much that the management didn't care about telling the employees, they told them, but they [00:44:10] just didn't make it a priority to tell them first.

And that doesn't go over well. Um, your, your younger cohorts want to feel included. They want to be [00:44:20] included in the decisions. Uh, they want to be heard. I think that's the most important thing to us having an engaged workforce is that people feel like they're being listened to, as I said, [00:44:30] you don't have to do what they want, but you have to.

Let them feel like you heard what they will admit. 

Host: [00:44:36] I can't think of a better way to end. What's been a really awesome conversation. [00:44:40] Lee, I want to thank you for your time today for all of your insights. And I'm really looking forward to continuing this conversation off. I appreciate 

Guest 1: [00:44:47] it, Matt. This has been great and your insights [00:44:50] are always a pleasure to play.

Just have you share them with my class. Pleasure to have him share them on this podcast. Take care and we'll be in touch.

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