How Has Organizational Design Evolved - Dieter Veldsman

Dieter Valdsman is a Cape Town, South Africa based business executive with extensive organizational design, change and transformation experience. Today he spends most of his time as the Group Human Capital Executive for the 6000-employee Momentum Metropolitan Group, a South African-based financial services conglomerate. He’s also a senior research associate at the University of Johannesburg, lending his talents to improving our understanding of how organizations operate most effectively.  

Together we discussed the future of organizational design, and the necessity for organizations to redefine what 'work' looks like. And how the transition from the traditional inside-out approach to organizational structures must be adapted to reflect a more modern outside-in model that factors in an ever-changing world.

We discuss the critical importance of psychology safety in the workplace - particularly for organizations undergoing digital transformations. If your employees dont trust you, digital transformation feels a lot like workforce reduction through automation. It instead can feel empowering, enabling; more inclusive. 

We had a great discussion and I hope you enjoy it.

Dieter Veldsman

Dr. Dieter Veldsman is a seasoned executive with extensive organisational design, development and business transformation experience. He has been involved in various industries in different roles across Asia, UK, Europe and Africa.  He is currently the Group Executive Human Capital at Momentum Metropolitan, a multi-national financial services provider with a footprint in Africa, the United Kingdom and India.  He holds a Doctorate in Organisational Psychology from the University of South Africa whilst also completing certificates at Harvard and INSEAD on business strategy.

He is a regular speaker at international conferences on the topics of people effectiveness, employee engagement, workplace trends and organisational development and has authored/co-authored a number of book chapters and peer-reviewed academic articles.  He is involved in academia as a senior researcher at the University of Johannesburg  and lectures part-time at various institutions on the topics of employee engagement, human capital and organisational behaviour.

LinkedIn

Thinking Inside the Box

Constraints drive innovation. Each week we’ll tackle the most complex issues related to work & culture.

LinkedIn
Website
Apple Podcasts
Google Podcasts
Spotify
Stitcher
Pocket Cast

Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

LinkedIn

Transcript

[00:00:00] Guest 1: [00:00:00] How do you bridge that gap for the organization to say the healthy conversation to have is the culture conversation. The healthy conversation, Ted is the workforce [00:00:10] conversation and what that's going to look like and how that's going to evolve for us in future. And how do we get different data points?

Gathered in the flow of the [00:00:20] business. And how do we utilize those to make meaningful interpretations of where we find ourselves

[00:00:30] Matt: [00:00:37] strain, strive, innovation. Hey [00:00:40] everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of thinking inside the box, a show where we discuss complex issues related to work. Sure. If you're interested in checking out our other [00:00:50] content, you can find us at bento, hr.com by searching your favorite podcasts at thinking inside the box.

And now in virtual [00:01:00] reality, each Thursday at 5:00 PM Pacific standard time in Altspace VR. In today's episode, I chat with Dieter. Uh, Cape town, South [00:01:10] Africa based business executive with extensive experience in areas like organizational design and change and transformation. And today he [00:01:20] spends most of his time leading human capital for the 6,000 person momentum metropolitan group, a south African based financial services.

Though, [00:01:30] he's also the senior research associate at the university of Johannesburg, where he lends his many talents to improving our understanding of organizations and how they [00:01:40] operate most effectively. Which as luck would have, it was the topic of today's conversation and together Didi. And I discussed the future of organizational design along with his [00:01:50] belief that we now need to redefine what work looks like transitioning from the traditional inside out approach to business, to now a more modern, [00:02:00] agile outside in approach that factors in all the other effects that may impact an organization outside of its four walls.

We discussed the critical importance as [00:02:10] well of psychological safety in the workplace, particularly for organizations that are undergoing digital transformations. Because if your employees don't trust you [00:02:20] in a digital transformation, it feels a lot like workforce reduction through automation. When instead it can feel empowering and enabling and more inclusive.

[00:02:30] Didi. And I had one of our epic, great conversations, and I hope you enjoy it as well. So without further ado, Dieter Beltman Dieter, this [00:02:40] conversation is so overdue. You and I have had a record going back years now of of great conversations. I've always appreciated your perspective on [00:02:50] organizations and culture and more broadly work.

And I'm really excited for today's chat. Thanks for stopping by. 

Guest 1: [00:02:56] That's great, Matt, and I really appreciate you having me today and, um, definitely agree [00:03:00] with you. Look forward to the conversation and sharing some thoughts and ideas on organizations and what organizations will look like in the future. So 

Matt: [00:03:08] for listeners of the podcast, who've been [00:03:10] around since the beginning, you'll likely know that the approach that we take with this podcast is very informal.

So I'll usually meet with guests like Dieter a few minutes before the podcast we'll align on a general [00:03:20] direction of, of certain topics that. People are passionate about or feel very, you know, call to speak about, but largely we let these conversations flow organically because I think personally [00:03:30] I appreciate that type of a natural back and forth much more than I would do something more scripted and structured.

And. Yeah, I'm looking forward to the chat today [00:03:40] because I think we're going to get to some cool places. We always seem to poke at some topics that I leave our chats going, huh? Like that's something to reflect on and think about, and this is I'm sure going to be no different. [00:03:50] But before we get into that, let's maybe start with who Dieter is your background, your experiences maybe just involve our audience and about 

Guest 1: [00:03:57] your backup.

Sure. Thanks Matt. So, [00:04:00] um, my name is, is Dita Feldsman I think from. A professional point of view. I'm an organizational psychologist focusing very much on organizational design, um, employee [00:04:10] engagement and the future of work I'm based in Cape town in South Africa. Um, I've had the privilege to also fulfill a variety of roles, um, globally working [00:04:20] for different companies ranging from.

Small startup businesses. Do you know, kind of big fortune 500 companies as well. And currently I'm the group human capital executive for [00:04:30] people effectiveness at Bloomington metropolitan, which is a multinational insurance and financial services 

Matt: [00:04:34] organization. Very cool. And. Your background extends into a [00:04:40] number of different disciplines of HR.

And I think one of the areas that we connected on quite early in our process was just your, your strong bias for evidence and science using science in [00:04:50] your practice, um, for a profession that unfortunately given its history has, has a bit of a reputation for maybe not leveraging evidence-based or financial [00:05:00] metrics or science or technology, as much as it should have a that you stand alone.

I think in that case, Dieter, but just your overall approach. I'm sure. You know, if you could talk a bit more about your journey and kind of how you [00:05:10] arrived at where you are today, blending science and academia, but also more of a business 

Guest 1: [00:05:15] mindset. Sure, Matt. So I think I've always been interested in understanding [00:05:20] human behavior.

And I think to your point, trying to. The stole, what are the patterns that we can look at around how people react to their environment? And then particularly in my field of interest in the organizational [00:05:30] context. And I have to agree with you also on the point, I think a lot of our people sciences we've sometimes haven't grounded them in enough solid theory for them to be taken seriously [00:05:40] in the world of work.

Um, I think we've seen a significant change over the past few decades with regards to that, but in my own personal life, You know, I think, especially when you work in some of the [00:05:50] industries that are highly analytical financial services, information technology, I think there's a lot of value in being able to put things on the table that's based on data and based on facts.

I [00:06:00] also think the world has changed significantly over the past few years with regards to how do you. Traditional information and data into insight and wisdom. And how do you [00:06:10] portray that forward in the conversations and the solutions that we put forward from a people science point of view? Personally, a lot of my research has been around how do you connect things like [00:06:20] traditional human capital metrics, like employee engagement, job satisfaction, and how do you actually connect that to bottom line?

But also do things like organizational culture and how can [00:06:30] you quantify the real impact that those different perceptions and things within the organization actually have. And how do you actually translate that into palatable and tangible business insight that [00:06:40] you can take action on? Um, and I think it's something that's really driven me quite a bit to try and figure out that, how do you do that in a simple way?

Um, in an easy to understand way, because I also find would be often. [00:06:50] In the people sciences, if, you know, if we don't quite get our way, we almost try and explain things in extremely complicated manner that eventually doesn't end up being anything useful or relevant [00:07:00] that a business can take and utilize and move forward.

And I think that's been a little bit of my journey. Um, of exploration in my own research, as well as just in some of the organizations that I've worked in is how do you [00:07:10] do this in a simple way, that's business relevant in a language that anybody can understand and actually utilize 

Matt: [00:07:16] well. And I think there's two key pieces to that.

So I think the first one that I [00:07:20] alluded to and you've certainly provided more context too, is this idea of using science to inform business decisions, to inform culture decisions and. [00:07:30] In a lot of cases, the, the level of science, the amount of research, the, you know, the examples that we can point to are [00:07:40] plentiful when it comes to certain things.

I think about the clear link between things like engagement, intrinsic motivation, and discretionary effort. Like we know those things to be [00:07:50] linked. Um, we, we know, um, from a scientific perspective that when you have diverse, Boards and diverse leadership teams that ultimately it drives a whole [00:08:00] bunch of positive businessmen business metrics.

So there's this huge body of research and science and academia out there that points to a whole bunch of things that in a [00:08:10] lot of companies are still very aspirational. And despite the fact that the science could point to it being more effective in nearly every possible way, there is the second part of [00:08:20] this conversation, which you alluded to, which.

Despite the fact that we may know that it's good for us. We don't at times choose those paths. I [00:08:30] think about even, you know, using a more practical example. I think most people in the world understand that, you know, if you want to lose weight, you need to reduce your calorie intake [00:08:40] compared to what you're extending.

You need to exercise more, have a good diet, and you'll have a path towards a meal, a better. Losing weight, better health, things of that nature, but yet obesity [00:08:50] is rising. So like, there's these, um, you know, there's this, this kind of, you know, juxtaposition of what we know to be true and to be effective, but we also have organizations that [00:09:00] are seemingly moving down a path that would, that would not be aligned with that.

And that's for a whole bunch of different reasons. I love the fact that you identified. It's so important for us [00:09:10] to. Translate the science for our colleagues, for our leadership teams, for our organizations, more broadly to help them understand and [00:09:20] equip them with the tools and the awareness. So that if it's actually just a function of, you know, a lot of ignorance that we can close that gap and hopefully move people towards, [00:09:30] you know, a different way.

I know Dieter. And when I was in the corporate world, I did this more. So now as a consultant, it's a bit different. I have to be, you know, approach my relationships a little bit different. [00:09:40] In the corporate world, I would often intentionally bake elements of people's science into the initiatives that I would roll out.

But I would never talk about the people science, because I [00:09:50] knew that the moment that I did, then there would be some resistance to it. So I would just bake it into the way that we would go about doing our business. And I would know that if we approached a [00:10:00] certain particular problem this way or pulled on these levers, there would be.

You know, positive results on the other side, I'm curious for you, and I'm not going to ask you to break confidentiality, of course, but I'm [00:10:10] curious for you, how much intentionality are you baking in your scientific background, your academic background into your strategic planning, or even your day to [00:10:20] day work?

Like how much of the, of that, you know, it takes up your, your mind share and your, your mind space as you're thinking about what to do with supporting your organization. Sure. 

Guest 1: [00:10:27] I think fantastic. You know, kind of [00:10:30] question. Um, and I definitely agree with you. I find. No, the science has to be baked into every decision you do.

Every, every move that you make, um, around how you [00:10:40] blend the people strategy for the organization and to do so in a way. And to your point that you almost translate that in this relationship of trust, that I'm yet with you in relationship to move us [00:10:50] forward. And I have an office. Patients with my team.

And I asked them to say, what are you basing this recommendation on? What are you basing this advice on? Because [00:11:00] ultimately we are in the business of advice and that's actually what we do. I think, as a people functioning in a large organization, we are there to guide the organization to make the best decisions about their business even more.

So, [00:11:10] which will impact and affect people or have an impact. Um, on the people factors and the culture in the organization as well. We try to build that in a lot, and I think we try to get more robust, but I [00:11:20] think there's this fine balance between you're not there to do academic studies in the organizational context.

You need to find the scientist practitioner balance about saying, but we've [00:11:30] actually. The thinking behind this, there's some solid theory. We've done our homework and we've also tested our assumptions and these, that our own perceptions. And we were able to translate that into [00:11:40] something really, really nice and practical and that we can utilize.

I think we sometimes get caught up on and trip ourselves up on terminology because something that's, you know, in the academic world, we [00:11:50] call this, um, it's something else. And the people signs as well. Then when we take it to business, you know, there's almost a third type of terminology that pops up. The conversation we often have is, [00:12:00] you know, I don't think that that matters too much.

Go tell the story and the narrative in a way that makes sense for that particular context. But at the end of the day, as a scientist practitioner, you have to be able to look [00:12:10] yourself in the mirror and say, I did the best I could based on very solid theory based on what was done previously and before in other organizations.

I did my best in [00:12:20] order to find a workable solution. And I think that balance is so important. I think we have to breed a different type of people professional in future. I think somebody that likes to engage with the [00:12:30] science that likes to take it and say, but how can I apply it here? And how can I make it relevant here?

And to your earlier point, you know, we all know. We should be exercising five times a week and we should be [00:12:40] eating healthy. And yet we don't. How do you bridge that gap for the organization to say the healthy conversation to have is the culture conversation. The healthy conversation tab is the workforce [00:12:50] conversation and what that's going to look like and how that's going to evolve for us in future.

And how do we get different data points that gets gathered in the flow of the business and how do [00:13:00] we utilize those to make meaningful? Um, interpretations of where we find ourselves I'm personally, you know, not a big supporter of, we go, we collect data, we take it away, [00:13:10] we go and analyze it. And then we bring back with this expectation of this big revelation that we are going to move the organization into, you know, into a different mold.

I think data's all around us. [00:13:20] And I think information and insight is just waiting to be uncovered and we fail if we approach it. People's signs differently. Um, in organizations, I think there's a robust story that you [00:13:30] just need to uncover. Um, that's very relevant, um, and it's palatable and it's meaningful for the organization, um, to be able to take them forward.

Matt: [00:13:37] I totally agree. And you've said so many good things there and I'm [00:13:40] gonna, you know, poke at a few of them. And then I want to transition to, um, a topic that things related. I think first and foremost, I think you're right. I think, you know, I, you talk about this idea [00:13:50] of, you know, people gathering data. Taking the analysis back to the cave, coming out with the big reveal.

It's very, that's a very traditional way of solving problems in [00:14:00] organizations. And that's the environment that I unlikely yourself. Peter grew up in. I mean, I grew up in an environment where waterfall project management was the predominant modality where. HR in particular had a [00:14:10] reputation for, you know, we would go off and solve the world's problems, come back, do a big reveal.

And inevitably when it wasn't completely aligned with somebodies expectations, we'd be disappointed. And somebody says jaded [00:14:20] that people didn't like what we had built because we poured our blood, sweat and tears into it. And we thought we were doing the right thing. I learned that lesson the hard way when I was more junior, so that when I took on leadership [00:14:30] positions, I was like, okay, this doesn't seem like it's a good path going forward.

It actually. It's causing more friction in the organization. Let's make things more agile. Let's make things more iterative. Let's involve [00:14:40] our stakeholders from the very beginning. Let's have them help us inform the design because we're not doing, we don't do the analysis. We shouldn't anyway, be doing the analysis and doing projects and [00:14:50] designing and strategy for our benefit.

It should be for the broader organizational benefit. So put your ego aside and engage your stakeholders and let's have a real conversation about what's going on. Um, [00:15:00] and I think that's a really important message. Particularly now. I mean, indeed, are we talked about this offline, every organization on the planet, regardless of the size [00:15:10] maturity lifecycle industry.

It doesn't matter has gone through a significant change. In the last 18 months, the world has necessitated us to look at work differently, and [00:15:20] it has put a large spotlight on the things that organizations that were in large case broken before the pandemic, but were exacerbated by the pandemic. And a consequence of that is [00:15:30] that organizations now, as they consider a path to, you know, some form of new normal are questioning.

Everything about themselves. They're questioning their strategy. They're questioning [00:15:40] their organizational design. They're questioning their operating models because they realize in some cases that they're going to have to make fundamental shifts in order to be competitive and effective and [00:15:50] sustain their success in this new world we're living in.

And we had a number of conversations about organizational design in particular, which is a topic that I've been. [00:16:00] Passively looking at over the last 18 months, partly because I think it has to shift, but my reticence to dig into it further was because I honestly couldn't find a lot of [00:16:10] materials that pointed to where I thought we had to go.

They were all anchored in traditional models of organization design you and I know them all. So it's, you know, I [00:16:20] was looking for something that was a union. Perspective on how we could structure workforces differently. You know, I'm curious for yourself, you know, what are your thoughts [00:16:30] on organizational design coming out of the pandemic and in particular, what are some things that you think organizations and in particularly the HR teams need to be looking at [00:16:40] as they consider designing organizations for the few?

Guest 1: [00:16:42] So men, I think the first thing that, that defending, you know, shown a big light on is I think the question around. Organizational [00:16:50] identity, um, and organization identity. I'm not talking about brand identity. I'm really talking about why do you exist as an organization? Because I think fundamentally you can't answer the [00:17:00] questions around organizational design.

If you're not very clear on why do I exist? What is my ambition? What's my purpose. What's the difference that I'm going to make as an organization. And that has to be your starting point, [00:17:10] um, in any organizational design process. And I completely agree with you. I think organizational design has been one of those.

Fields or sciences that's fallen in between various [00:17:20] contributions towards the question. You know, there's this strategy answer to it that comes out of the strategy side of the world. There's a human capital or an HR answer to that particular area. There's a process [00:17:30] efficiency optimization onset the world's organizational design.

But I think at its heart, organizational design is really about answering a few questions. And I think those questions, the [00:17:40] answers to them are going to become even more important for organizations to gain clarity on in the post spending equal.

Matt: [00:17:48] Hey everyone. It's [00:17:50] Matt here, and I hope you're enjoying today's discussion before we continue. I wanted to make you aware of our latest creative project, HR in VR, [00:18:00] every Thursday at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time. All connect with technology pioneers, business executives from the world's most iconic brands and industry [00:18:10] thought leaders to discuss the future of immersive technologies like virtual rail.

And their impact on future workplace. In partnership with Microsoft we're [00:18:20] broadcasting each episode on LinkedIn live and in front of a live studio audience in Altspace. Joining is easy for LinkedIn users. [00:18:30] Simply follow my account, Matt in VR and stay tuned Thursdays at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time for the LinkedIn lives.

Or for a [00:18:40] truly immersive live experience, visit alt vr.com to download Altspace on your Mac, PC or VR headset, [00:18:50] and join us live in our studio audience. There you'll have a chance to ask questions, meet me and our incredible guests and connect with others from the comfort of [00:19:00] your own home. This is the future folks.

And I hope to be part of it. And I'll link the details for HR and VR, along with all other [00:19:10] relevant information in the show notes of this podcast. And now back to our discussion.

Guest 1: [00:19:18] Yeah. So the first one is why do [00:19:20] you exist? And I've mentioned that, you know, the reflection on organizational identity. I think the second one is what is the game that you want to play? Because I think there's various different ways that you can go about it. [00:19:30] And yes, that is a strategy question, but it is also.

Um, to help you to clearly define, but what is your core philosophy as an organization? What do you think about first? You know, I [00:19:40] think there's certain buzzwords that enter the environment. We talk about, you know, client-centricity was a very big buzzword at a particular point in time. Then we talk about efficiency.

Then we talk about effectiveness. Then we talk [00:19:50] about product lead businesses. Fundamentally an organization at its heart has got a type of way that it views the world a paradigm from which it works. And I'll use an example of the [00:20:00] organization that I currently am working with. Right? Politan fundamentally, we are a product late business.

That's our core philosophy. We think the world, we will change the world by building better [00:20:10] products. And yes, we completely acknowledge we building for clients and we both in for consumers, but fundamentally the things that get us excited that we are really, really good at is building products. [00:20:20] And that's okay.

And it's okay to authentically be I product lead person. With a very big goal that we are trying to achieve with regards to enhancing financial wellbeing. [00:20:30] I think the org design process has to uncover those answers for you. Why do you exist? What is the game that you want to play? What do you need to be good at to be able to [00:20:40] compete in that environment?

And then the last one is how do you want to organize? And I use the words organize intentionally because I don't want to use the words. How do you want to structure? Because I think that is [00:20:50] changing fundamentally and oppose spending equals. Um, you and I take that offline about the fact that I think traditionally and or design people used to design organizations from the inside [00:21:00] out, they were asking the question, what do we want to do?

What's the best way to do it? How do we say that? You know, and we've got a lot of process driven type of models out of that type of thinking, but I think [00:21:10] the world has changed. People are now starting to design organizations from the outside in that are trying to say, what are those memorable moments that I want to create for my client or for my [00:21:20] consumer?

And if I need to be good at creating those memorable moments, how do I need to set myself up from an internal point of view in order to make that happen? And I think that's fundamentally changed the way we [00:21:30] think about work. Um, if you think about an insurance business, I'll use ourselves as an example.

We only have three interactions with, with clients. The first one, a very cognitive interaction. I [00:21:40] tried to sell your policy. I tried to sell you insurance. I started to sell your comfort, very cognitive in nature. They, we need the, the memorable moment to be somebody that can articulate the value [00:21:50] of our offering in the context of way that individual finds themselves.

The second interaction has been very much around. Something has changed in your life. You want to do, I mean, the policy, which is a very emotive thing, [00:22:00] because it's usually coupled with a life cycle event, I've seen somebody off to university. Um, I, you know, I have to take out something for a loved one. I have to start thinking about [00:22:10] retirement.

That's kind of our second emotive interaction. And our 30 motive interaction is something we're drawing and you have to claim I've lost somebody. I have to kind of step into my funeral. [00:22:20] Um, I'm busy with diary. I need to look at what does the future look like? A very emotive type of response. Now in the old world, old design would have said what's the most efficient way to get from point a to [00:22:30] point B and completely note the fact that maybe it's okay to go slower with the motive interaction, and maybe the way that we service a consumer has to look fundamentally different if we're designing from [00:22:40] the outside in, um, and that's got added huge impact in our world, just in terms of how we think about service, for example, how we set up services.

What we think a good service consultant looks [00:22:50] like. And I think in a post endemic world, I think people are going to be focused a lot more on, um, where's the human newness in what we do the interaction with the consumer that [00:23:00] outside in view of there's a human being on the other side that I'm dealing with.

And I have to make sure that this interaction is memorable. And I think that will fundamentally change. Um, [00:23:10] organizations, I think COVID has forced us all to take a step back, I think, to reconsider what is important to ourselves as human beings. And I think that will translate into the way we do business that [00:23:20] will translate into what we believe work is.

Um, and I think that will fundamentally translate in the type of experiences we want to create both externally for clients or for customers and [00:23:30] internally for employees. Um, and I think the field of all design is going to play such an important role. In making sure that we enable the potential of organizations and don't restrict it.

And [00:23:40] by putting in rules and processes that actually harm the organization in terms of its fluidity, its ability to evolve its ability to adapt into this new future. I love 

Matt: [00:23:49] your use [00:23:50] of the word organized versus structure. Uh, I think it's the right nomenclature for the problem and for the opportunity ahead of us.

Uh, because you're right. When I think about structure, I think about [00:24:00] rigidity, I think about, um, Stasis and a lot of cases. And I think that we're with the idea of organized, it has a much more of a fluid feel to it, which is ultimately where [00:24:10] we're headed. And the lot of the activities that you're mentioning are really critical insofar as organizing the employees.

But we also talked a lot about [00:24:20] experience and this conversation and the idea that you're very much architecting an organizing. And resources to support the [00:24:30] experiences of your clients and your stakeholders. And there's something to be said for applying the same level of intentionality on the experience of your employees as well.

[00:24:40] And it's something that organizations largely have. You know, made strides, but I don't know that we've in a lot of cases gone all the way we needed to go [00:24:50] in really understanding, sitting down and really journey mapping that employee experience. And when we're talking to organizations now, I mean, I'm hosting focus groups every other week with [00:25:00] HR executives around the world.

And. And we're talking about, you know, the world post COVID and hybrid work and how things are going to evolve and a common theme that comes up as this [00:25:10] idea of having to journey, map the employee experience, thinking through three separate modalities. I mean, yes, of course the, the traditional in office environment, we need to think that through ensure that we have [00:25:20] the right facilities in place, you know, in some cases, hoteling and coworking spaces and, you know, satellite offices and like all these things pop up around that.

There's a conversation to be had now [00:25:30] about. Remote work because traditionally in organizations that I worked in, if you were a remote worker, it was generally understood that your experience from an engagement [00:25:40] perspective was not going to be as good as somebody in the office, but that, that was kind of the price you had to pay for the flexibility.

It's like, we all have the story of being the only person on a teleconference and [00:25:50] everyone else's in the office. Like they don't give a lot of consideration to those. Physically on site. So the proximity bias that exists there. And then the third area that people are looking at of course, is this hybrid model where you have a portion of your [00:26:00] workforce working from the office some days, but also working from home for some days.

And you can't just simply default to when they're in the office, we're going to engage them. And when they're not, we're going to ignore them. So it's a, [00:26:10] where organizations are thinking through, how do they develop, you know, resource plans? How do they develop the right tools, infrastructure, you know, knowledge sharing, knowledge transfer to [00:26:20] support these three kinds of work.

And I'm curious how you're thinking through the future of work for your organization and trying to reflect those different kinds of modalities as we move [00:26:30] forward. I think for 

Guest 1: [00:26:31] Matt, such a topical issue at the moment, then I think, you know, when I also engage with some of my fellow human capital colleagues, everybody's got this question at the moment also around, you know, how [00:26:40] do we balance in this new world?

Flexibility, because to your point, flexibility is no longer a benefit. It's now become an expectation. So any good employee value proposition, um, almost [00:26:50] as flexibility as a hygiene factor, something that talent will expect in a post pandemic world. Um, you know, if I've proven, um, Can work from anywhere and I can do [00:27:00] so productively.

And what do you want me to come back to the office environment? You know, unless there's a very dedicated reason to do so. So I think the way we think about flexibility needs to change fundamentally, [00:27:10] and I think also the way around are we completely sure. And I have this conversation with one of our CEOs and literally a couple of weeks ago where they said they want to make sure that [00:27:20] we optimize the benefits that flexibility will provide to our employees going forward.

And I said, but. Fantastic news. What does flexibility mean for you? Does it mean I can now go and hire somebody [00:27:30] at the other side of the world and they work in an asynchronous manner with your team? And they're like, no, I don't want to be that flexible. And I said, okay, does it mean they can live in a different province so that they can travel to any of our [00:27:40] physical locations say, no, no, they can be flexible, but I still want to see them on a Wednesday morning for my team meeting.

That's not flexibility. So I think we need to think differently around, you know, if we [00:27:50] are going to go into a world and I agree with you, I think we're going into a bit of a hybrid. Type of, of, uh, world of work. What does flexibility look like? And in the point you raised, what does [00:28:00] inclusivity look like?

Um, you know, I think the sacrifices that people made to be flexible and not be at the office all the time. I think the expectation now is through the collaborative tools is that we do have available. [00:28:10] Is that everybody should be included and be able to provide the base contribution regardless of where their contribution or where they based, um, and where that contribution is coming from.

So why should the [00:28:20] guy that's dialing in on the telecon feel like they are not involved? And I think it poses an interesting question. In a lot of our old school, traditional concepts, right? How do we run meetings [00:28:30] and how do we get the best out of people in conversations? How do we facilitate workshops?

How do we still see the other that might not be in the room? Um, and I think it's such an important conversation around, [00:28:40] including everybody in this collaborative space and having, and creating an environment where they really can contribute. Um, and I think organizations and that's something that we are doing at the moment.

A lot of [00:28:50] thoughts around what are our non-negotiables in this new world of work? What are those key things that we really want to put on the table and say, regardless of what we do, these are the things that we have to [00:29:00] align to. These are the things that we have to stay to do. And these are the things that are important for us.

So, um, similar to other organizations, you know, during COVID we had this big stance to [00:29:10] say that, you know, safety trumps everything else. So we will make no decision that will put any of our employees in homes. Um, given the pandemic, regardless of, of, you know, what the consequence of that would be [00:29:20] or what the sacrifices that we had to make.

And I think those same type of principles or same type of conversations need to move into this remote world of work around what really all those important [00:29:30] things. And I can share, you know, we've got a principle that we utilize and say, you know, we believe our people do. They base, we trust all people to do their base to work, um, [00:29:40] regardless of where they work from.

Now, if that's a guiding principle, then we say we also. That it is that social interaction is also important for us to establish the type of culture we want. And as such, we've [00:29:50] implemented certain rhythms and certain routines in our business to make sure that people still connect and engage with each other because it is important for us.

But just those two guiding principles have given a [00:30:00] very different view on how we think about way people should work and how often they should come into our office environments. How we set up our office environments, which is also something that we are changing at the [00:30:10] moment, because we've acknowledged, you know, the post COVID.

Yeah. The office, won't be the place you go to do work. It will be the place where you go to connect and engage. That will be the place you go for a very [00:30:20] intentional purpose. And if so, why on earth? Should we set it up like a traditional office environment where people go and I sit at my desk, you know, with my photo and my, um, you know, kind of my setup [00:30:30] on, so I think those conversations will evolve a lot more, but I do think it comes back to our previous point.

Yeah. You know, are you clear on your principles, the non-negotiables, what are the things that matter to you [00:30:40] and how do you bold the way of work around that and around solid principles of work that you do put in place? Um, and I, I really think inclusivity beyond, you know, the [00:30:50] conversations we're having at the moment, but they need to diversity and inclusivity.

I just think around contribution is going to be a fundamental thing to sort out. How do you make people feel connected [00:31:00] to who you are as an organization and your culture? Regardless of how they've joined when they've joined, who they know, um, from a relationship point of view, and that's something I'd be all going to have to solve for, [00:31:10] um, in this future of work 

Matt: [00:31:11] and on a related note.

Another thing that we're going to have to solve for is this idea of workforce augmentation. So like yourself, I came from an, from an [00:31:20] organizational background working for largely fortune 1000 companies where big multinational enterprise team. Where budget was as much as a consideration as head [00:31:30] count, wasn't a consideration.

And as a consequence of that, there was a strong bias towards full-time resources. Having people physically onsite in the office. And [00:31:40] there was very little in the way of workforce augmentation. There would be some consultants here in now to maybe help with some strategic elements, but largely. We didn't tap into [00:31:50] pools of talent, like gig workers or contract workers or project based workers, freelancers that didn't come up very often.

Um, it was mostly let's hire [00:32:00] consulting firm, or let's try and hire the person internally. I'm curious on your thoughts about as this shifts, what do you see in terms of the future of workforce composition? [00:32:10] Um, you know, can we expect to see a greater percentage of. Gig workers, freelance workers, contract based workers, augmenting workforce operations.

[00:32:20] Um, and if so, how will that change? The very nature of organizations 

Guest 1: [00:32:24] themselves? I think you're spot on Matt. I think that definitely in my view, the future, [00:32:30] there is a blended workforce. I think, um, it's as much a consideration in terms of access to skills, as well as the fact that I think. We do need diverse [00:32:40] thinking to come into an organization more frequently than ever before.

And I think you have the opportunity to build that through, you know, supplementing your core workforce through things like gig workers. And, you know, you [00:32:50] mentioned contractors and consulting and short-term assignments and internal rotations and whatever the likes, I think we have to get to a point where.

We intentionally try and bring [00:33:00] different thinking into the organization. And I think your core kind of, you know, I think in the, in the past you've had this thing and it's been based on control. Right? I know if I've got my permanent employees, [00:33:10] I can control the direction of where things need to go. I think we need to let go of.

I think aligning people around a common goal regardless of where they come from. I think it's going to be very, [00:33:20] very important. How do I get the gig work? And you still choose me, not just for the money I'm paying them, but because I provide exciting work, um, I've provided work with meaning I provided work [00:33:30] with a purpose.

Um, now, regardless of whether they are part of my permanent workforce or not, um, I also need to find a way, and we are currently struggling with that. You know, what are things like [00:33:40] employee benefits, et cetera, has been very much built on a traditional view of you are a permanent employee. And as such, there are certain things I look after for you from an employer point of view.

Now, how does that [00:33:50] change all of a sudden, how do I still provide, you know, a very engaging value proposition for a gig worker that wants to join and participate in some of my initiatives and some of my [00:34:00] projects. And I think we're going to have to. Completely rethink in the human capital space, this concept of a permanent employee, um, and the concept of, you know, somebody that [00:34:10] contributes towards what we are currently building and how do we still look off to them?

Um, we are currently busy, um, and it's maybe interesting that the, you know, you've raised the point where. [00:34:20] You know, we're busy giving, you know, performance excellence, the dialogues and feedback in the organization is that, that time of the year. And one of the key things, you know, that's not bought that decides, but in some [00:34:30] divisions, you know, 50, 60% of their workforce is not permanent employees.

So actually the exercise I'd be doing is almost. In a few thoughts in a way, because we're not getting a robust picture [00:34:40] really of how people have grown over the past couple of months, because we excluding those people based on a very traditional thinking about organizations, as opposed to asking the question who did the [00:34:50] work because of where they came from.

Um, and what is it that we want to achieve going forward? I think we're going to have to think differently. I think we're going to have to become a lot more lenient, a lot more flexible. [00:35:00] Um, and I also think we are going to have to open. You know, different ways of thinking around things like benefits, different ways of thinking on, on some traditional, you know, organizational gong [00:35:10] concepts.

Um, and I think that's the only way that we're going to have to think, you know, if we want to really want to build a culture that is durable is you're going to have to include everybody around the table. Um, and it can't [00:35:20] just be for the select few just because they've got permanent employment status. So I think that's on the one side.

I think the other side is also, I think for organizations to keep up. With the changing [00:35:30] talent market, they're all going to have to engage in these new forms of employment. Um, I think that organizations that don't want to are going to lose out, because I think the really talented skills we'd [00:35:40] like to almost have a lot more freedom and flexibility and choice.

Um, and I think, I think a lot of those skills and I mean, I can just use, you know, digital and ID related skills as an example. [00:35:50] Um, you know, those guys want to move around. I think if you try and tie them down in one organization, that's not necessarily. Um, a great experience for the end to get back to our previous point.

And I think [00:36:00] we kind of have to completely think differently about people's contribution towards work, um, and where that comes from 

Matt: [00:36:06] another thing that we've discussed, but I think [00:36:10] requires, um, a bit more discussion on it is the idea of in this new world, if we assume a more hybrid modality where people [00:36:20] are less frequently in the office and therefore co located, one of the things that.

I think bears some more discussion is this idea of engagement [00:36:30] and specifically around how organizations are designing workplaces that are engaged. [00:36:40] And validating their efforts through ongoing sentiment analysis and pulse surveys. Because one [00:36:50] thing that we've lost in this transition to more remote work is we've lost the proverbial water cooler.

We've lost the ability to pop by somebody's desk and check in on them. We've lost the ability [00:37:00] to see how somebody is physically showing up in the workplace that may signal. Stressors or, you know, potential burnout or things of that nature. Now that everyone's [00:37:10] dispersed, it's very easy for those things to remain hidden.

And it's very easy for them. Employees to become frustrated, disengaged, resentful, and [00:37:20] ultimately, um, departing the organization in some cases. So I'm curious about your thoughts around the future of engagement and how organizations should be thinking about both. [00:37:30] No, maybe not so much designing for it, but certainly quantifying it, um, in a way that actually identifies things like psychological safety, [00:37:40] um, which we know is just so important to ensuring that we have the right people with us in the organization.

No, 

Guest 1: [00:37:45] and I think, you know, I think we face the challenge at the moment, your point, you know, Matt. [00:37:50] Um, we've underestimated how much we rely on a physical work location to get a sense of the feeling of the organization. Right. I mean, I talked to a lot of our leaders at the moment and they're saying, I [00:38:00] can't feel the pulse of where might people, um, I'm struggling to understand just, you know, how are we doing as a business?

I can feel the energy, um, in know all these things where I [00:38:10] think things we took for granted that, you know, you just had a sense of being in, you know, in a, in a physical work location when the same office environment. Um, your point, I think how [00:38:20] to be in, through online mechanisms and mediums. Do we still create an opportunity, firstly, for people to bring their whole selves to work?

I think there's been a very big focus on that. You know, I think for the [00:38:30] first time with a lot of people working from home, um, you know, the family and the beets and everybody's become part of the equation and it, it, it sounds strange for me to make that comment, but yeah. The [00:38:40] whole self and the whole human has come to work.

You know, I think still that old thing. And, you know, we say, yes, you, you don't leave your yourself, you know, at the door when you go into the workplace. But we do put on a mask. A [00:38:50] lot of us in terms of this is our professional persona. And I think a lot of those boundaries, you know, I've kind of broken down a little bit more.

I think your point when we start thinking about psychological [00:39:00] safety people, if people don't feel that they're in an environment of trust and transparency, you know, think psychological safety will never happen. I think, especially in a time where. There's so much [00:39:10] uncertainty about organizational futures and about the sustainability of jobs into the future.

I think the ability for an organization to create trust and [00:39:20] transparency, um, and to have open dialogue and open conversations, regardless of what the medium is going. Crucially important. You mentioned things like sentiment analysis. [00:39:30] I think we are going to have to think differently about our earlier conversation around what are the, you know, the data points that we can collect in the flow of work, um, as work happens, what are those things that [00:39:40] be are going to have to look at?

And what does that tell us? Um, in a predictive way, once we build the science behind it, What's happening in our organization and we are people are, and really, what is [00:39:50] the mood? What are people struggling with? What are people battling with? And I think the concept of how we think about well-being has to change fundamentally, you know, I think a lot of employee assistance [00:40:00] programs still, you know, gay the legacy of the boss around, you know, being developed.

Certain behaviors in the organization where we're going to have to shift that around and get our leaders [00:40:10] also talking about mental wellbeing, talking about the fact that, you know, they also vulnerable at certain points in time about saying these are the things that I'm struggling with because I'm also only human.

Um, [00:40:20] and because of that, I can fully engage. Um, now how do we quantify these things? I think there's a lot. I think we need to look at, you know, to your point, you mentioned things like, you [00:40:30] know, short bowl surveys. I think there's other types of behaviors that people have in the organizational environment that is measurable.

And we can start looking at, and it is about starting to identify those [00:40:40] patterns of the time so that we can act in a preventative way. We had a lot of these things do pop up. I think as a second point, one of the key things is that I think we're going to have to social [00:40:50] engineer connection a bit more. I think those water cooler conversations, you know, that we just assume people will bump into each other, but you're going to have to engineer intentional connection for people [00:41:00] that does not translate just into this task orientated type of working environment that we find ourselves in.

Currently for people working remotely at the moment, I joked with one of my [00:41:10] teams this morning. Way. I told them, you know, you guys just join and say, these are the five things we need to discuss and everybody's running it back to back zoom or teams meetings, you know, from, from morning until night. [00:41:20] How about just taking some time out and how are you, how are you doing?

You know, I can kind of pick up you're a little bit different today. Let's just quickly have a conversation in a bit of a check-in and that's I think, [00:41:30] fundamentally going to change the way and what we expect of managers and Adidas, because ultimately I think that's going to become a lot more important to engineer that connection in a frequently.

So [00:41:40] that we can get that information, start looking at patterns and things over time. Um, and I think organizations, especially human capital functions need to pay a lot more attention to what is not safe. A [00:41:50] lot more attention to the things that's not happening in the organization in order for us to make sense of it.

And maybe Matt, the last point on that is I think, you know, psychological safety, as I've [00:42:00] mentioned before, If it's built on trust, it's built on this environment of trust. I can be who I am and that's okay. And I'm accepted and we're going to have to create [00:42:10] cultures for them to really flourish. Um, I think to a large extent, you know, it's been some topics that's been difficult for us to breach in another organizations, but we are going to have to open that up a lot more.

If we are going [00:42:20] to create this engaging environment, uh, you know, this environment that people want to work in and want to stay. And if we don't change that, I do think there's a real. And then it'd be, might lose the [00:42:30] essence of our organizational cultures. 

Matt: [00:42:32] I think you're right. And I think that we have we're at an inflection point, a lot of ways, and I I'm talking to organizations on a daily basis and [00:42:40] they're all trying to make sense of, of where we are and ultimately where they want to go.

And it's not going to be easy. I mean, with the things that we're talking about here require fundamental shifts in leadership practices, [00:42:50] management practices, rituals, and organizations. These changes do not come overnight. They take time, they take effort, they take experimentation and iteration. And ultimately [00:43:00] I share your thoughts that this is, this is where we are inevitably headed.

Uh, this is where all of the, the macro economic signals point us. And ultimately this is. [00:43:10] Organizations and their employees can find shared space to thrive. And for the HR people listening to this podcast for the business leaders, listening to this podcast, I would encourage you to give [00:43:20] some deeper consideration to the idea of people science.

The idea of. Trying to evaluate whether you have the right strategy, the right [00:43:30] programs, the right tools, the right systems, the right people in your organization to really deliver upon, you know, your mandate and to do so in a way that's BA back, not in your [00:43:40] history and your background and your experiences, but especially today where things have so fundamentally shifted, is it backed in science?

And just to ask you. That test [00:43:50] that question. You know, where's the evidence that supports what we're doing beyond just our own personal experiences. I think that's a really important question to ask nowadays, because I do believe that if we're [00:44:00] going to make this shift, it's going to come in a series of small decisions and that if we start making those changes, Them smaller and iterative and palatable over time.

It's going to [00:44:10] position you and your teams and your organizations for more success. As this continues to evolve. My concern is that if we don't and if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend like this is gonna go back to the way the things [00:44:20] were, we're going to miss the boat on some significant trends that are going to fundamentally change work, and that this transition will have to come at some point.

So it's kind of pay me now, pay me later. And I [00:44:30] don't know about you Dieter, but I've always been kind of the professional that was like, okay. I'm no, I'm going to be forced here anyway. I want some say in what path I take to get to that destination. [00:44:40] And I think this is the inflection point that leaders are at now.

And it's a great opportunity for them to consider how they want to influence their own futures because. [00:44:50] Space is coming. We are, you know, in the fourth industrial revolution, we are increasingly in a knowledge-based economy. We are in a space where we're going [00:45:00] to have to shift the way that we do things if we're going to compete, uh, because other organizations will, and you don't want to be caught on the, on the wrong end of that transaction.

I 

Guest 1: [00:45:09] couldn't agree with you [00:45:10] more, Matt, I think, you know, for, for the leaders and the business leaders and, and human capital professionals, professionals listening. You know, I think that take a moment. This is new [00:45:20] for all of us. Um, but. Wait, if we all going to go into the future, I think let's make sure that we make the best decisions with the information we have available at that [00:45:30] particular point.

And we base it on some options. I think, you know, with over daughters is that we have to challenge our assumptions about how the world works. A lot of the things are due to habit or due to [00:45:40] historical legacy reasons. We have to challenge our own assumptions about why we do things and how we do things.

And I think your point, you know, organizations that do so will thrive and will come out. [00:45:50] Um, on the top. And I think the, the leaders, you know, should also be okay and not to get caught up in their own insecurities. It is new, it is a change. It is different. Um, but I [00:46:00] think the journey is worth it. Um, and some it to yourself, you know, I also know I have to go in a particular direction.

I at least try to go there in style. Um, even though I know full down along the road, [00:46:10] Um, and to try to do so in a bit more of an intentional way, 

Matt: [00:46:14] Dieter as always, I really enjoy our conversations. I thought we covered a lot of ground today as we always do. [00:46:20] And I really appreciate the time that you've taken to provide your insights and your thoughts.

Um, I'm gonna include all of your details in the comment section of this particular podcast. So those folks looking [00:46:30] to connect with Dieter offline, I'll put his LinkedIn information down there. Yeah. Deidre. I just wanna wish you and your family and your organization, a whole bunch of health and happiness and success as this year goes [00:46:40] on.

It looks like the end is slowly approaching and I for one cannot wait until we get start doing these. Thanks so much, Matt 

Guest 1: [00:46:47] federally as always enjoyed our [00:46:50] conversations. And I hope they will. Um, you know, something useful that helps people think a little bit differently and in a more hopeful way, um, about the future and you and your family as well, stay safe and to get them [00:47:00] soon

Matt: [00:47:07] at bento HR, we enable your HR [00:47:10] strategy with custom HR technology, procurement implementations, and integrations. Deliberate your team from a ministry. Enhance their productivity and experience to [00:47:20] position them at the center of your organization's transformation, where they belong with experience. As an HR executive myself, I have a real appreciation of the challenges [00:47:30] facing today's HR leaders.

The world is changing. Your industry is being disrupted. Your organization is transforming and all the while you're trying to do more with it. [00:47:40] You're being asked to simultaneously model fiscal restraint while the expectations of your departments are only increasing at bento HR, [00:47:50] we can support you at every stage of your transformation from architecting, the strategy to developing and selling the business case.

Internally we support [00:48:00] procurement implementations and ongoing sustainment, and we tie it all together with a deep knowledge of the HR process. And over six [00:48:10] decades of combined experiences from our founding team who has worked in or supported large HR organizations across multiple industries, [00:48:20] including, but not limited to financial services, technology, retail, transportation, and healthcare, check out bento HR today to build your [00:48:30] very own bento box, which doubles as your business case for transformation.

Leveraging recent research into the upside of digital automation inside organizations. And [00:48:40] with your help in answering a few simple questions related to your organization, our bento builder will provide a directional business case for change. So log onto [00:48:50] www dot bento, hr.com and build your bento box today.