How Toxic Masculinity Affects Entrepreneurship - Dominic Vogel

As Founder & Chief Strategist at CyberSC, Dominic Vogel understands the intricacies of cybersecurity across multiple industries - financial services, logistics, transportation, healthcare, government, telecommunications, and critical infrastructure. He provides strategic security leadership to technology start-ups and small / mid-size businesses to proactively solve their cyber risk challenges. 

Dominic is a repeat guest, and in his second appearance, he shared lessons from his own professional journey, his growth as an entrepreneur, and discussed the importance of addressing toxic masculinity head-on. It was a really candid conversation, one that I enjoyed, and I hope you do, as well.

Dominic Vogel

Dominic actively participates in the Vancouver security community and is a well-respected cyber security expert for Global BC, CKNW980, News1130, and the Vancouver Sun. Dominic is highly regarded as a cyber security thought leader and was recently appointed to the BC Provincial Cyber Security Advisory Committee. Dominic has performed his cyber comedian routine for BrightTALK Security Summits, MISA Spring Conference, Cyber Security Summit West, Blancco Security Days, NYIT Cyber Security Symposium, Calgary Cyber Security Congress, Youth Achieving Success, Delta Chamber of Commerce, Vancouver Enterprise Forum, Vancouver SecSIG, Vancouver ISACA, BC Aware Day, Launch Academy, Start-up Canada (Start-up Chats), World Mining Summit, ISACA CSX North America, Business-in-Vancouver Digital Privacy & Security Series, RSA Conference, and InfoSec World.

Dominic focuses much of his energy on providing strategic security leadership to technology start-ups and small/midsize businesses to proactively solve their cyber risk challenges. He strives to provide practical cyber security advice to his clients and actively turning the security consulting world upside down.

LinkedIn
Website

Thinking Inside the Box

Constraints drive innovation. Each week we tackle the most complex issues related to work & culture.

LinkedIn
Instagram
Twitter
Website
Apple Podcasts
Google Podcasts
Spotify
Stitcher
Pocket Cast

Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

LinkedIn
Twitter

Transcript

[00:00:00] Guest 1: [00:00:00] To win, right? If, if, if it doesn't turn out the way that you had hoped that's okay with a [00:00:10] growth type mindset, we learn from what happened. Right. You learn from those lessons learned, right. You rinse and repeat any, then you make it.

[00:00:30] [00:00:20] Matt: [00:00:30] Strengths drive innovation. Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of thinking inside the box, a show where we discuss complex issues related to [00:00:40] work and culture. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at bento, hr.com, wherever you find your favorite podcasts [00:00:50] by searching, thinking inside the box.

And now in virtual reality, each Thursday at 5:00 PM Pacific standard time in Altspace VR. [00:01:00] In today's episode, I chat with Dominic Vogel, founder, and chief security strategist at cyber SC, where he focuses much of his energy [00:01:10] on helping startups and small to mid-sized businesses solve their cybersecurity challenges.

And this is actually our second discussion. Dominic and I originally [00:01:20] recorded episode 61, entitled cybersecurity in 2020 and beyond around this time last year, just as the pandemic really took hold of our [00:01:30] planet. And we subsequently released the episode in November. At that time we discussed the latest trends in cybersecurity and how organizations were adapting [00:01:40] their remote workforces against the backdrop of the global pandemic and some of the easy measures that any organization can put into place to secure the private information.

[00:01:50] So if you're curious about that, check out episode 61. Though this time around, we agreed that we were going to have another conversation we needed to dive into new ground. [00:02:00] And so we did covering entrepreneurship and some of the lessons that Dominic has learned over his time in running his own organization, including the importance of grit and [00:02:10] resilience and using entrepreneurship as the vehicle for personal growth.

And we discussed toxic masculinity. It was an [00:02:20] interesting conversation because. Ultimately Dominic believes as I do as well, that males can and should be doing more to advance the conversation and [00:02:30] narrative around gender equality. And in our discussion, we discussed a number of things, including actionable advice that people can put into place today.

[00:02:40] And the concept that silent allies really aren't allies at all. We also did discuss cybersecurity, but only insofar as what we've learned since this [00:02:50] time, last year speaking a year later, afforded us a unique opportunity to look back and validate earlier predictions. So we did that and it was another [00:03:00] really great conversation, far reaching lots of great topics.

And I've come to really appreciate my discussions with Dominic and I hope you enjoy them as well. So without further ado, [00:03:10] Dominick Vogel. Dominic two point, Oh, how are you? My friend Matt, 

Guest 1: [00:03:15] also two point, Oh, how are you doing my friend? I knew it. Fantastic. 

Matt: [00:03:18] Hey, we were saying off [00:03:20] air that when it's a sunny day in Vancouver, life is very, very good, even in a pandemic.

So today's a good day. Oh, absolutely. 

Guest 1: [00:03:26] I'm in tremendous spirits. I'm just looking into my backyard right now. Sunny [00:03:30] skies. So you're catching me on a good day, 

Matt: [00:03:31] my friend, and a good day to tackle two interesting conversations. We've had. You know, for those who aren't familiar, uh, [00:03:40] we had a, you on the podcast about a year ago.

I'll reference that podcast in the show notes of this episode, because it's one of my favorite conversations of last year, because we tackle the topic that. Many [00:03:50] in the business profession, don't spend a lot of time digging into and that cybersecurity. Um, we're gonna talk about that today. We're also gonna have a conversation about a topic that you and I have [00:04:00] connected on and resonated on, which has nothing to do with cybersecurity, but everything to do with, um, you know, our, our status as men and that's toxic masculinity.

And I'm super [00:04:10] interested to have a conversation with you about that before we do. I think for those who haven't had a chance to interact with our previous podcast, or may not know Dominic from all of your social media posts and interactions in the [00:04:20] public sphere. Maybe tell us a bit about who you are and what you're all about.

Guest 1: [00:04:23] Absolutely. Um, so the quick Coles note on me, so I've been in the cybersecurity profession, uh, close [00:04:30] to 15 years now. Um, like many people they've, uh, have many chapters in their professional career. So the first chapter of my, uh, professional career was, uh, my [00:04:40] corporate career. I spent, um, Close to quite a few years in the credit union system here in Vancouver, where I live.

And, uh, one day I woke up and realized how [00:04:50] much I hated working in the corporate world. And, uh, it was actually six years ago. This is coming August on August, 2021. Um, that'd be the sixth. Your anniversary of me [00:05:00] leaving the corporate world and starting my entrepreneurial journey, uh, through my entrepreneurial journey, I learned more about myself and who I am than I had at any other point [00:05:10] in, uh, in my life.

Uh, I went from being someone who was very quiet, reserved it really like making relationships or talking to other people, uh, to being someone who loves [00:05:20] public speaking, someone who enjoys building new relationships and appearing on podcasts like this one. And, uh, being able to. Learn new skills like sales and business development and [00:05:30] marketing.

And, um, you know, so now I run cyber se, which is my advisory firm. Uh, we work with business owners and CEOs CFOs of small and mid-sized [00:05:40] organizations right across North America. And we really help them. Tackle cyber risks, you know, to make sure that their growth of their organizations go unpeated, uh, and not deterred by, uh, by [00:05:50] cyber risk.

As apart from that, I am a, uh, a father to have amazing two amazing kids, um, a devoted husband. And, uh, I refer to [00:06:00] myself as a positive troll. I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn, I believe in the power of uplifting people. And then reminding people. No, I know how awesome they are and because it's [00:06:10] far too much negativity, both online and in the real world.

So, um, I enjoy being a positive troll even though I'm six foot two. So that's me in 

Matt: [00:06:17] a nutshell, a six foot, two troll [00:06:20] that's positive. I like the, uh, the, the, the very, the very unique nature of that. And I, I agree with you a number of fronts, I think first and foremost, uh, your, your sentiment [00:06:30] around the, the personal transformation that you went through as a consequence of jumping from the corporate world into the world of entrepreneurship, I can, I deeply resonate with I'm three years into my own journey and.

[00:06:40] And one of the sayings I have for this podcast, for those who listen on a regular basis is that constraints drive innovation. And I can't think of a better example of that than entrepreneurship in this context, [00:06:50] because when you're in the corporate world, a lot of things that are given to you or that are easy or become routine are very much [00:07:00] not a routine or expected or even commonplace in the world of entrepreneurship.

And I went through a significant journey myself of having to shed. A lot of [00:07:10] the lessons that I had learned that had served me very well in a large corporate matrix organization. Um, I had to learn new skills. You mentioned sales and marketing. Those are skills that they do [00:07:20] not teach you in most corporate functions inside of organizations.

Cause you don't need them. And at the same time you mentioned as well, the. Having to learn a lot more about yourself. [00:07:30] And as an entrepreneur, one lesson I learned early on and I was very lucky that I had mentors in my corner and people that I could call and reach out to and have conversations with that [00:07:40] supported me entrepreneurship above everything else is a, is an emotional journey.

It is a, um, it is a very much a, um, [00:07:50] an internal struggle all the time as you're trying to. Establish yourself in a completely different realm and having to shed some skin and then [00:08:00] kind of reinvent yourself. And that's not easy for a lot of people. And. I think that, you know, one thing I learned early on, as I mentioned was that the, when you're just starting out in business [00:08:10] as an entrepreneur, whether you're at a solo preneur, whether you're in a small enterprise, in that sense, the business will go as you go.

And you bring with you all of the. Good [00:08:20] things that you brought from your previous lives and you bring with you all the bad habits that you brought with your previous lives. So it shouldn't be a huge surprise to, to my bookkeeper that my [00:08:30] accounting skills are leave a lot to be desired because my expense reconciliation in the corporate world was.

Awful. And, uh, at the same time, um, my ability to deliver presentations and [00:08:40] new public speaking, which was something that propelled my success in the corporate career have translated over to being an entrepreneur. So, um, you know, I just want to acknowledge that. I think that's a really important [00:08:50] point was a lot of people who listened to this podcast, who've shared with me that there.

Considering leaving their corporate roles and pursuing consulting either on a part-time basis or on a gig basis or, or [00:09:00] starting some sort of entrepreneurial venture. And I think it's important for people like us. Who've been through that transition just to be real with people that are making that shift, that.

It's not for everybody, but [00:09:10] if you're able to hang along this rollercoaster ride, that is the shift entrepreneurship. That reward is, are potentially very, very lucrative. And it sounds like you're like a lot [00:09:20] like me. I wouldn't go back if given the choice, I really enjoy working for myself and having the flexibility.

And I enjoyed so much more about who I am as a person. Um, now that I have my [00:09:30] own business. Oh, and 

Guest 1: [00:09:32] you said that's all eloquently and, uh, um, I, I agree with you I'm, I mean, I'm broken from ever going back to corporate 

[00:09:40] Matt: [00:09:40] that 

Guest 1: [00:09:40] just, uh, that just can't happen now. And, um, but like you said, there are the, the thing that I think really resonated is the, the.

No, I, I got, I got a lot of [00:09:50] messages from people on platforms like LinkedIn. Um, like you mentioned there, people who are wanting to start an entrepreneurial journey, people who may be either [00:10:00] unhappy at their corporate career, or maybe they want to supplement that and have a side gig. Um, so many of them just, they don't know where, where to start, [00:10:10] or they're scared to take that plunge, you know?

And, and for your, for your loyal listeners go, the thing I, I just. I always tell people is just, just take a [00:10:20] step forward. You know, so many people don't make moves out of fear of failing. Um, that, that, that is not the, that to me is, is the concept of [00:10:30] playing. You're playing a game, but you're playing not to lose, you know?

And that to me is a fixed mindset. You know, you ha if you're going to play. Any game, whether that be [00:10:40] tennis, whether that be hockey, whatever, but you're not playing not to lose. You're, you're playing to win, you know, um, you know, just having fun, all that other crap aside, [00:10:50] but you know, to me, it's the same thing from an, uh, if you're launching into an entrepreneurial aspect, right.

Play to win, right? If, if, if it doesn't turn out the way that you had [00:11:00] hoped, that's okay with a growth type mindset, you learn from what happened, right. You learn from those lessons learned, right? You rinse and repeat any, then you make yourself better. [00:11:10] Right? The things I've learned six years. Into this. And my first year, I, uh, how I was as a, as a entrepreneur in year one [00:11:20] very, very different than in year six.

I didn't even recognize myself from year one. You know, I was constantly chasing, chasing leads. I was, you know, trying to make [00:11:30] deals. I was lowering my costs. Right. I was doing anything just to, to land a client. Right. And, um, I wasn't focusing on personal branding, any of that stuff we'll fast forward to [00:11:40] today.

My approach is totally different. I learned so much from those first few years, um, that I'm not who I am today. If I didn't make those mistakes, you know? So I just encourage people. [00:11:50] Don't be afraid to fail. Right. Failing is only a failure if you don't learn from it. And I'm a firm believer of that if you fail that's okay.

But if you don't learn from it and you don't apply those [00:12:00] lessons, Then you really are a failure, but take the time to learn those lessons, learn from them, implement them, integrate those new changes. That to me is a, uh, unleashed power of, uh, like [00:12:10] a growth, growth type mob mindset. You sent a 

Matt: [00:12:12] couple of really important things there.

And I just want to touch on, because I think it's important to put a bit of an extra emphasis on them. The first one is this idea [00:12:20] for momentum and when you're an entrepreneur, You, especially in the first few years of this, of any venture, it doesn't matter how smart you were in your [00:12:30] previous career. It doesn't matter the title that you held or the size of the company that you worked for, or the types of projects that you worked on.

There's going to be a large cross section [00:12:40] of your new life that you have no experience or limited experience in doing. So you're going to have to get used to, as you put it, failing, making mistakes, learning on the job [00:12:50] and unlike the large corporate safety net, where. You have other resources to draw upon, to potentially augment or supplement or compliment some of the things that you struggle with [00:13:00] when you're an entrepreneur, there's nowhere really to look unless you have an infinite pile of resources in front of you.

In which case, I don't know. That's really an entrepreneurial journey. It's more something like a hobby, [00:13:10] but if you are a true entrepreneur, you're having to constantly go through. Iterations and evolutions. And I think a lot when you were talking about the idea of, you know, [00:13:20] trying to perfection is in a lot of ways, the enemy of progress in the sense that, you know, especially in, you know, you worked in the credit union industry, I worked for large traditional organizations [00:13:30] where in some organizations, failure was not an option where it was made very, very clear that failure could be a career limiting move where the stakes were very high, where there was a lot of.

You have a [00:13:40] lot riding on a particular project or presentation or initiatives and. I came to realize later in my corporate career, when I joined other [00:13:50] organizations and took more of a leadership role, that I worked really hard to foster an environment of innovation. And that started with the idea that if people made mistakes, as long as those mistakes are mistakes of [00:14:00] integrity or mistakes around values, that they made an honest mistake, a typo here, a miss slide, there, a misspoken comment in a meeting, we would take the [00:14:10] opportunity to.

Teach and learn and guide people because I would rather have had my team take chances and learn and stretch out the side of their comfort [00:14:20] zones than be so afraid of making the mistake that they play small. And that starts with leadership because if you have a culture where a mistake is a career limiting move, or it is, you know, up [00:14:30] problematic in the context of somebody's career, then you have to expect that.

You're going to have people who struggle with that, um, that, that, that fear. [00:14:40] And I think to your point, entrepreneurship is that on steroids. So, you know, going away from this idea of waterfall spending six months or 12 months or 24 months behind the [00:14:50] curtain masterminding, this perfect ideal strategy. Only to launch it, entrepreneurship is ending, but that it is very much put something in the [00:15:00] market, iterate, get feedback, change evolve.

And one thing I've learned throughout this process has been that the entrepreneurs, the, the individuals, the small [00:15:10] business owners who have success are the individuals, like you mentioned that have a growth mindset. And when they get kicked in the teeth, they take their time. They are [00:15:20] kind to themselves.

They get up off the mat and they take a step forward. It doesn't matter how big of a step. It doesn't matter how far they go. It doesn't even matter if the next step is the right step, but they [00:15:30] take a step. And the people that struggle are the ones that say yes, I don't, I can't, I just, I can't handle the uncertainty around, you know, earning a paycheck and not having a consistent [00:15:40] income.

I can't handle the idea of failing on a consistent basis and I'm not used to being a failure. Um, I'm not comfortable in putting myself out there and having to be a sales person or a [00:15:50] marketer or an it professional or whatever that, that gap may be. The individuals who have success have this level of grit and resilience to them that those who've been through that [00:16:00] arc and who have had success that come through the other side.

There's an appreciation of, unless, like I mentioned before, unless you were, you know, gifted with a significant, [00:16:10] large lump sum of money. Or a pool of resources to draw upon where you didn't have a lot of risks around failure. Every entrepreneur, when they're starting out, goes through the same journey, which [00:16:20] is you take a leap of faith and you hope that it's going to work, but you don't have any assurances that it will.

So, yeah. You know, I, I know we're talking about a couple of other topics today, but since you [00:16:30] introduced it, I wanted to spend a bit more time discussing it. I think it's a really important conversation because as I mentioned earlier, you know, whether it's yourself or me, we're constantly getting people who are nudging us and [00:16:40] asking us questions about our own transitions.

And, you know, I want to be in service to people. I want to be helpful to people. I want to be real with people so that they can make informed decisions and. [00:16:50] If ultimately where people want to end up is either a hybrid situation where they're working in a corporate setting and have a side gig, or are they gonna jump entirely as entrepreneurship or they're somewhere in [00:17:00] between.

That's great. And I also want to be mindful of the, it's not something that people should do lightly. I know it gets [00:17:10] romanticized. It's something people need to do with a lot of intention and lot purpose behind 

Guest 1: [00:17:13] them. Oh. And, and that's so true on so many levels, man. And when we talk about [00:17:20] the thing that lovely to mention, there was no sin kicked in the teeth, but then.

Taking a step, but then it doesn't matter in what direction. And that's just a [00:17:30] great visceral, visceral image of entrepreneurship, you know, it's, it's, there's so much of it is romanticized, but again, it's not for the faint of heart, [00:17:40] but that doesn't mean that it's impossible. This doesn't mean like you're trying to send a rocket to Mars.

Right. And like so much of this is doable and it's not necessarily overly [00:17:50] complex either. Um, um, it's, it's um, To me, it's a commitment, a commitment, and the areas that you need to focus on. [00:18:00] And as well as when I look back over these past six years, though, One thing that comes back in my mind as a lesson learned that I wish I had known from [00:18:10] the beginning was don't go it alone.

You know, even if you are a solopreneur, right. Um, that's okay. But you need to build, [00:18:20] build a network, right. Build connections. So one thing which has truly unlocked magical levels for me as entrepreneur has been, um, investing [00:18:30] in relationships, right? If you lead with friendship, As something, which I've taken a new approach to, especially on a platform like LinkedIn, um, I used to use LinkedIn [00:18:40] as a sales tool.

I would, you know, only engage with people that I felt were valid prospects. I would only DM people that I would say, Hey, you know, what's your cyber [00:18:50] risk strategy at your organization? If you're not sure maybe we should have a conversation. That got me nowhere, literally nowhere I did that day after day for several [00:19:00] years.

And then I had this epiphany. I was like, Hmm, well, this strategy sucks. It's not getting me anywhere. It must be the platform. The platform sucks. And then I was like, Hmm, no, maybe not. And then [00:19:10] it dawned on me that I was approaching it all wrong. By trying to approach people with a win lose proposition in which it was a win for me.

If they wanted to talk and talk about [00:19:20] cybersecurity and I would lose if they didn't want to talk about it, I thought, you know what, why if we create more of a win-win situation here, what if I just reach out and say, [00:19:30] you know what? I love your content. I want to support you. Um, I'm leading with friendship, um, or if you're open for a conversation about, uh, how [00:19:40] we can better support each other.

Great. You know, and by showing up consistently and consistently engaging with people's content, I demonstrate that I want to be part of [00:19:50] someone's life. It's not just commenting on someone's post once, and then DMEM and saying, Hey, I commented on your post. Let's have a conversation. You know, let's see if I can tell you my, my wares and services, you know, you have [00:20:00] to show up and show up consistently.

And when, when you show people that you care, um, you know, you're ultimately ending up tapping into the, uh, You basic human need [00:20:10] to reciprocate. I mean, um, and what people feel the need to reciprocate that that is often be a, a great. Cornerstone for building off a friendship, you know, [00:20:20] and what's been so amazing, especially during the pandemic where I've had more free time, especially early on when business really halted and went to a crawl was I doubled down triple down on [00:20:30] relationship building and by investing in these types of relationships and they, and these are people that may, which, um, wouldn't even be prospects for people ultimately sell, uh, [00:20:40] my company services.

Too. It was just good people that I wanted to support to form friendships with. And by investing in those types of relationships, I'm a firm believer that in the [00:20:50] long run and I was. Tell entrepreneurs, you have to have a big picture mentality. If you're always have you're hyper focused on the short-term and instant gratification, you set [00:21:00] yourself up to fail and you can, you can not have that short-term gratification mindset.

You need to think big picture, longer term. And to me, by investing in relationships, uh there's [00:21:10] other than investing in yourself, there's no greater ROI than investing in those types of relationships. Because, um, in going back to that women proposition, If over the course of 20 years, [00:21:20] I just ended up developing a really amazing friendship.

Great. Worst case is that I have a new friend, right.

[00:21:30] Matt: [00:21:31] Hey everyone. It's Matt here and I hope you're enjoying today's discussion before we continue. I want to make you aware of our latest creative project, [00:21:40] HR in VR. Every Thursday at 5:00 PM Pacific standard time, all connect with technology pioneers, business executives from the world's [00:21:50] most iconic brands and industry thought leaders to discuss the future of immersive technologies like virtual reality and their impact on future workplaces.

[00:22:00] In partnership with Microsoft we're broadcasting each episode on LinkedIn live and in front of a live studio audience in Altspace. [00:22:10] Joining is easy for LinkedIn users. Simply follow my account, Matt in VR and stay tuned Thursdays at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time for the [00:22:20] LinkedIn live stream. Or for a truly immersive live experience, visit alt vr.com to download Altspace on your Mac, [00:22:30] PC or VR headset, and join us live in our studio audience.

There you'll have a chance to ask questions, meet me and our incredible guests [00:22:40] and connect with others from the comfort of your own home. This is the future folks. And I hope to be part of it. And I'll link the details for [00:22:50] HR and VR, along with all other relevant information in the show notes of this podcast.

And now back to our discussion,

[00:23:00] Guest 1: [00:23:02] the added bonus is maybe as a result of that six months from now, six years from now. 20 years from now, maybe never, maybe we got a [00:23:10] referral, maybe they moved to another business and they bring us in. Maybe we have formed a, a partnership. The point is that that ends up being a bonus, you know, and by [00:23:20] framing things through that, win-win, um, uh, proposition, you take off a lot of that pressure.

Um, and it's no longer that Wendy's proposition and I I've, that's something which I [00:23:30] wish I had known. Earlier on in my entrepreneurial journey. Yep. 

Matt: [00:23:34] Yeah. There's we can use, we can spend the entire podcast. I'm sure. Dominic talking about stuff that we learned. [00:23:40] It's hard though. I mean, when you talk about.

The idea of playing the longer game you're you're spot on. Um, I've never successfully been able to convince [00:23:50] somebody on LinkedIn or any other platform for that matter in, in one conversation or two to open up their checkbook and, you know, give me money for services. It's never [00:24:00] happened. Um, yeah. In large part because you and I are operating in a similar space in that our, our relationships with clients are as important as the services [00:24:10] we provide.

And you can't build a relationship in one or two messages back and forth. And the pressure when you're just starting out around getting that first sale, getting that second sale, [00:24:20] getting that third sale is real. And. It instills a sense of urgency and entrepreneurs, where they misinterpret activity for productivity.

When use [00:24:30] really, you know, again, this is where the pressure of having to have success, whether it's financial pressure, whether it's ego, whether it's, um, you know, anything that's driving this, this urgency around [00:24:40] success. You really should spend the first six to 12 months just building relationships, because if you do that really, really well after month seven after month 13, the, the [00:24:50] opportunities just start to come in organically without you having to go and pursue them as much, because you've laid that groundwork with relationships that people understand what you're doing.

They understand your value proposition. They [00:25:00] understand your values as an individual and opportunities present themselves. But at the same time, I empathize with up and coming entrepreneurs because they want to get that business so bad that they [00:25:10] think that if I just messaged a thousand people. Well, law of averages, one will say yes.

Um, and that's just, to me, that's just a, it's a really tough thing to do. And [00:25:20] I like the way you've put in, you know, the, your mentality of having a win-win versus a, a win lose. I think it's the right approach in a lot of areas. And I guess as we [00:25:30] transition one area that we discussed a lot in our last conversation that I do want to touch on a bit in this discussion is the idea of cybersecurity.

And that's your area of specialty. [00:25:40] And I want to touch on it for a few reasons. And our last conversation, you shared a couple of really interesting points. And some that stick out with me even a year later are things like. Small [00:25:50] to medium businesses need to take cybersecurity more seriously than they ever have before.

That's 0.1 point number two, that a lot of the, the challenges around cybersecurity [00:26:00] inside of organizations, aren't technological challenges, their behavior challenges, their habit, challenges their buy in. They are, you know, um, individuals not [00:26:10] understanding there. Own, um, implications to cybersecurity inside of an organization.

Uh, and then last but not least the idea of really [00:26:20] working with people on, at a human level, even though we're talking about something that's very technologically interfaced. Um, and I'm curious from your perspective, um, as you've gone through the [00:26:30] last year, I think as we've all kind of gone through this pandemic and where the majority of organizations have gone, you know, remote or hybrid or somewhere in between.

[00:26:40] I'm curious what your impressions have been over the last year and if some of those lessons have transcended and stood the test of time, or if you've evolved your thinking any one of those areas. 

[00:26:50] Guest 1: [00:26:49] Yeah. I mean, those are the, as a pandemic has worn on one of the things, which, um, and I say all, all those things that you, that you and [00:27:00] I discussed last year, I'd say are, are still very much front and center.

An extension of the, um, non, uh, I, um, uh, the point number two that we mentioned about it, not just [00:27:10] being, uh, technology items or technology issues might become to cybersecurity we're we're, we're, we're, we're really still trying to see greater improvements in the [00:27:20] mindset of executives in the, uh, of the executive suite in the, uh, uh, SMB market as small and midsize businesses is for them to not.

[00:27:30] Just see it as a technology issue, but through a lens of risk management, right. And too couple cyber risks. With any other business [00:27:40] risks that they may be dealing with, whether that'd be operational risk personnel, risks, financial risks, cyber risk needs to be treated as a risk as a discipline of risk management.

It's not [00:27:50] just an, Oh our it guy will handle it. Or our it service provider will handle it. Or our IP team will handle it when it comes to the ultimate [00:28:00] responsibility. And the Walmart, uh, referred to as a fiduciary responsibility of the executive suite and or board, if such a board of directors exists at [00:28:10] a particular, uh, small, mid size organization, um, that, that.

Duty of having the right oversight and governance needs to come from them [00:28:20] in the event of a data breach, let's say you're at a swamp. It says organization. And you know, you're Mr or Mrs. CEO. And you've never [00:28:30] asked about cyber secure asset about cyber risk. You just say, Oh, our guy handles that. And the data breach happens.

And to see your customers launch, um, a [00:28:40] class action lawsuit. One of the first things will be looked at is whether or not cyber risk or cyber security was discussed at the executive level and or at the board level. If there's no [00:28:50] documentation or proof of that at strike one, um, you know, strike two will be if, uh, um, if there's been no due care [00:29:00] or due diligence on the part of the executive and or board, uh, in terms of making sure that cyber risk is sufficiently managed in the organization.

In the absence of that, that's [00:29:10] strike two. Now we start moving deeper and deeper into what's referred to as negligent, uh, or gross negligence, uh, territory. If your organization is, [00:29:20] uh, uh, at a spot then where I say straight number three, ends up being with the executive says, Oh, well, we, we assume we thought that the it guy was handling that or [00:29:30] they start.

Finger pointing that ends up being strike three. And then those all end up being the right ingredients for them. They'll end up having to deal with a massive class action lawsuit, [00:29:40] uh, up until recently, we've only seen that type of activity happening in the U S but we're starting to see more. More activity around that happening in Canada as more and more [00:29:50] organizations experienced data breaches and or more organizations are shown to be grossly negligent, uh, when it comes to protecting their client or customer or even their employees [00:30:00] data.

Um, you know, we haven't seen that happening in Tran was transit was example the, uh, transportation. The system here in the, uh, in the lower mainland, in British Columbia, the, the [00:30:10] employer, the employees, uh, union is taking a translator to court, uh, because they felt that they were negligent in protecting the employee information.

Right. Um, so we're seeing this happening [00:30:20] more and more. And if you are a member of the executive suite or a member of a board, you can be held personally liable in the event of gross negligence that will affect [00:30:30] your. Bottom line, not just the company's bottom line that will affect your, your wall, uh, and the feet don't have the right insurance to cover that that will really hurt you [00:30:40] won't really come out of your, your back pocket.

So that's, to me, it is the one narrative, which I've further. I further expanded on during the pandemic [00:30:50] is that, that this is a, a reckoning moment where executives and board of directors, right across all sectors. I [00:31:00] asked primarily with small and mid-sized organizations need to realize that this is no longer the Oh, it's as its domain or its responsibility.

It is a [00:31:10] risk. That's why even I try to refer to it now, a cyber risk is not cybersecurity. It's cyber risk. I, this is a clear and present risk of phases, your organization, especially during the pandemic [00:31:20] where more organizations had to become more virtual, more digitized with that came, increased cyber risk, right?

And if you have not been dealing with those increased risks, Again, [00:31:30] we start navigating towards the negligence territory and you don't want to be in a negligence territory 

Matt: [00:31:36] for a lot of reasons. And I think you, you touched on a few key points and again, [00:31:40] Organizations have shifted to much more of a technology enabled workplace.

And if we presume that the [00:31:50] individuals in the organization have a responsibility, whether it's at the leadership level and their fiduciary responsibility. Or at the individual contributor level, and that's just following good [00:32:00] practices around managing your habits and behaviors, um, with regards to cybersecurity and cyber risk, um, it becomes an [00:32:10] inherently human problem.

And. I'm sure. A large portion of what you're doing with organizations really revolves around just that, which is how do you, you know, [00:32:20] change the hearts and minds of people within an organization to, to think about things differently. And I'm curious, you know, I'm sure it's, it's a, it's a pretty common archetype where [00:32:30] someone has come to you because either they've had a cyber risk breach.

Or they have some concerns that have been raised within the organization. They're saying Dominic, like we [00:32:40] were starting from scratch and we really desperately need a different, uh, look at how we go about running our business from a cyber cyber security perspective. Where do you start? 

[00:32:50] Guest 1: [00:32:50] Ooh. Good question.

That is a darn good question, Matt. And, um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go down a couple of different, different paths here. So the, the path one, uh, [00:33:00] in my mind will be ideally we deal with this proactively and also just like, you know, you want to make sure that you have a healthy lifestyle before you have that massive stroke or [00:33:10] heart attack.

Um, you know, I I'd say path one is for it to be. Proactive. Right. But I am also realistic. And what we generally see in the market, especially during the, uh, [00:33:20] during the pandemic is that the majority of organizations that reach out to us are doing so reactive. So either generally after a adverse [00:33:30] security event or security incidents, maybe, uh, they are now being, um, I called out, you know, from a contractual perspective, you know, especially if they're a B to B organization [00:33:40] and, um, you know, their clients or customers are putting them under increased scrutiny.

Um, that is another common reactive scenario that we're seeing right now. And when it comes down to [00:33:50] the, where is that starting point? The starting point for me is always at the executive level first and foremost. I mean, when we have that open and [00:34:00] Frank discussion. So there is that understanding that.

What we're talking about is not a technology issue. That's a business issue that this is a business risk. That to me is [00:34:10] step one. If the executives don't understand that and they they'll buy into that principle, we generally don't even take them on as clients, because I know that there is all security will be seen [00:34:20] as lip service, or is it a necessary evil kind of thing.

Uh, and those types of organizations are doing to fail at least. At least from a cyber security and cyber risk management [00:34:30] perspective. So that's the first thing that I look at is, is that level of humility, shall we say and acceptance that. That this is a risk that cyber risk [00:34:40] needs to be treated as such.

And that there's commitment from the executive suite and we're board one exists to, to, to, um, correct [00:34:50] things and, and start, uh, start down the path, nice the road to perdition source for, uh, from a cyber security perspective. So that, that that's step one, step two. [00:35:00] Then I'd say, as an extension of that, There's the broader cultural aspect, right?

You need to indoctrinate a strong security culture in an organization. [00:35:10] If an organization, people are actively sending, you know, emailing out sensitive information or confidential information and not thinking about it, if there's no defined. [00:35:20] Well referred to as a secure data handling process for identifying here's the types of data that you need to treat as being toxic or as being dangerous.

And you need to have, here's how you handled them [00:35:30] in the absence of a security, aware culture or security conscious culture. Again, things just, just won't won't take, take hold. It's like [00:35:40] again, if you're a nutritionist and you go into a household and you're trying to convince a family of four to eat better and to eat healthy, you got to change.

Their culture, right? You can give them all the [00:35:50] tips and tools and, you know, pre-cut veggies and all that. But unless you change their mindset and culture, they're just going to fall back on the old patterns. So that, that, that to [00:36:00] me is, is point number two is the cultural piece, um, point number three, which I'll do as a sort of first three, uh, action oriented piece.

The [00:36:10] third piece is to perform an internal or to sort to perform a security maturity assessment. So if you're large enough and you have a security team, you know, get them [00:36:20] to give you that sort of digital health report, if not belong to a third party, you know, bring it sometimes it's good to bring in an unbiased third party I to say, okay, [00:36:30] well, here's your security health score, right?

It's you're doing well. You're doing not so well. Right. You're downright socking, you know, at least given, you know, having someone to give you that. [00:36:40] Insight and visibility, and to further provide actionable advice in terms of the different areas, whether it be a people layer or policy process layer, or the technology [00:36:50] level, uh, in terms of actual lens that you can start doing in terms of improving your security, health score or security health.

Capability, you know, so those to me, I'd say what [00:37:00] would be the three starting part parts at the executive, the culture, and then having that security health check, 

Matt: [00:37:07] those who are listening, who are asking themselves, or, [00:37:10] or even who may have come to the realization that they have some work to do in this area.

Just some confidence. I will include Dominic's information in the show notes of this podcast and would absolutely encourage you to reach out [00:37:20] to him as you can hear. One thing I appreciate about Dominic is he looks at the broader picture. Um, I've worked in the past with professionals in the cyber risks, cyber [00:37:30] security realm, who the very punitive approach to this.

It's a very compliance, focused approach to this. And while there's a definitely a space for that, there's a reality attached to it. Yeah. Um, I love [00:37:40] how you look at the broader picture and then the human side of the challenge, because ultimately, as you said earlier, we can put in place all the protocols and expectations and consequences and accountabilities [00:37:50] for doing the right thing.

But if we don't fundamentally change mindset, we are always going to be having to play this game of. Carrot versus stick and organizations, we weren't really realized true [00:38:00] change, and we need to fundamentally shift our relationship with technology. If we're going to, you know, look at it in a number of different contexts.

So thank you for that Dominic at the [00:38:10] same time. And one thing that you talked a lot about in the context of cyber security, which I think is a really nice bridge into our next topic around toxic [00:38:20] masculinity is this idea of awareness. And you know, the reason that I reached out again for us to have another conversation was a post that you put up on LinkedIn, where you essentially [00:38:30] challenged, uh, other men in your network.

You challenged people on the platform to really think about toxic masculinity in a different way. Maybe let's start there. What [00:38:40] was the. Impetus the inspiration, the catalyst for that post. Um, and why the, why the, why the, the, you know, the, the desire to really evangelize that way of thinking? [00:38:50] Uh, 

Guest 1: [00:38:51] yeah, I mean, for, for me, that, for that particular post was, uh, um, it was, uh, my, my, my daughter was 10 [00:39:00] is a dancer and, you know, she, um, period of video to her friends on, on Tik talk and she was in her dancing gear and we had, uh, again, the, her accounts.

Walked down. The only, the [00:39:10] only people that we approved can can see it, but there was a, um, a family friend, a older white male who, you know, didn't approve of it and, uh, [00:39:20] and said fairly disparaging remarks about her. And, uh, that to me triggered something in me. And it was a good example. [00:39:30] You know, he basically implied, you know, if your daughter's dressing like that, she's asking for trouble kind of thing.

And it's the. Age old problem of the, Oh, you know, um, you [00:39:40] know, women get what's coming to them because, you know, they're, they're asking for because of how they're acting or, Oh, they're being provocative or what have you. And that, to me, again, is part of the [00:39:50] toxic masculinity. And it's what drives me nuts is that we don't.

We don't do enough to educate our, um, our young men. And I'm a father to a three year [00:40:00] old son as well, um, to treat women with respect and dignity, you know, we shouldn't have to tell her, Oh, you know, you gotta be safe on the street or here is telling you what you should [00:40:10] do. So, uh, men don't, uh, creepy around you.

Why isn't it that we're doing more to. Make sure that men aren't creepy and [00:40:20] acting like a bunch of sickos. And why don't we do more to make sure that we remove that toxicity from masculinity? Um, and that, that to me, again, like I [00:40:30] said, being a father to a daughter has really opened my eyes to a whole.

Broken the world still is in, in, in that way. And by Cola and to [00:40:40] me, there's also very high elements of white male privilege as a part of that as well. And then on my posts, I rarely get, I rarely get [00:40:50] more than two or three DMS, maybe every other day kind of thing. Um, from that post alone, uh, my DM inbox just exploded mostly from angry men [00:41:00] telling me to stay in my lane or just talking about security.

Several of them call me racist, uh, other, other things. And it only lasted a day or so, but the other thing, [00:41:10] which again, which really stuck in my mind was that I hear from so many of my female, uh, friends and colleagues and connections on LinkedIn, that they have to deal with that kind of vitriol day in and day out, you [00:41:20] know?

And I thought, you know, I only had to deal with for that for like, I don't know, 24 36 hour period. Right? So many, many women have to deal with that day, day after [00:41:30] day, week after week, month after month, year after year, that will grind anyone down, you know? And, uh, um, that to me again, is there's still so [00:41:40] much.

So much misplaced hate in the world, which, um, you know, again, being a parent of two young kids, I want them to grow up in a world, which is kinder, gentler, [00:41:50] more compassionate, more empathetic, you know, and it, it does sad me when I study, as I see the toxic head of masculinity rearing its ugly head, you know, and [00:42:00] I know that.

I can do more. And I have a platform where very thankful I have 30,000 followers, and I wanted to make sure that I do what [00:42:10] I can to make sure that then some small token, I can make sure that the world that my children inherit and, um, that it is better than the world I, I [00:42:20] entered, you know, and, uh, That's I think I always want to remind males as well, you know, and part for a lot of those teams, I got, I got a lot of [00:42:30] men who wrote St.

Leo. Thank you so much for that post. That's great. Nowhere happy. You know, I, I, uh, worked pro seven referred to them being proud, silent allies, and [00:42:40] I, uh, well, I appreciate the sentiment. I say. You have to be more, you know, you can't be a silent ally, you know, that's like, that's like someone who says, you know, we can only, we can only, uh, [00:42:50] date each other, um, you know, in private, right.

We can't be seen public holding hands. Right. Are you really a couple in if you're not willing as in public kind of thing? Um, you know, [00:43:00] so you have to take off the shroud of secrecy. And to me, I think where we'll get the greatest. Amount of change isn't in necessarily changing the minds of the [00:43:10] old bitter males.

You know, many of them, I think there will never be able to change their mind. Um, and that's okay. I think there's going to be the greatest hope is in converting silent [00:43:20] allies to active allies, that to me and harnessing that energy is going to really help. Greater harmonized, both masculine and feminine energies to be at a spot where [00:43:30] I think we can drive towards greater gender equality.

Matt: [00:43:32] There's just so much richness and value in what you've said. And I agree with you on so many fronts. I think first [00:43:40] there is unfortunately this legacy. Complex that we have in society, where we demonize the behavior of certain groups of people. And we don't assign the appropriate amount of [00:43:50] accountability and responsibility to other groups of people.

Um, we place a greater degree of responsibility with victims in a lot of cases, as opposed to the individuals who are perpetrating that. [00:44:00] Um, and I don't know where that comes from. Um, and I don't know where that's placed, um, except to say that I find it misplaced in a lot of cases because [00:44:10] it doesn't solve the problem.

It only tolerates the behavior and puts the onus on the person who frankly shouldn't really need to modify their [00:44:20] behavior. Um, to your earlier point, if there are people who are disrespectful, To anybody. But in this context, if there are men who were disrespectful to women, it's not incumbent upon the women to [00:44:30] change their behavior or change how they dress or change how they show up in a, in a public setting, because there's a, there's a risk of, of men who are, you know, gonna act inappropriately or it may be threatening in [00:44:40] some way.

That's a problem with the men as you've pointed out. And I think to your earlier point, it's, it's, it's a shame that we spend most of our energy focusing [00:44:50] on. Counseling women on how to act in those situations and not on the men and saying, giving them a shake and going that's not acceptable, and that's not an appropriate way to conduct yourself [00:45:00] in a civilized society, um, where people are to be treated with a, you know, a reasonable amount of respect.

So I think first and foremost, I just wanted to say [00:45:10] that, and I think secondly, As we consider the path forward. I think it is incumbent upon people of all walks from all walks of life, including men like you [00:45:20] and I to, you know, Caucasian males to put our hands up and, and stand up and say that, you know, some things just aren't.

Acceptable. And to your point, being a [00:45:30] silent advocate is just simply not good enough because silence has not solved this problem in the hundreds of years that we've evolved as a society. Um, it's allowed it to perpetuate and allowed it to [00:45:40] grow and allowed it to become. And tolerable in some contexts when the reality is it's not acceptable and it's not okay.

And it shouldn't be tolerated in any sense. So [00:45:50] whether it is people standing up and saying enough is enough, whether it is people who come across situations where toxic masculinity is, is being is present and saying. Knock [00:46:00] it off, whether it is even just resisting the temptation to demonize the people who are on the receiving end of it.

Um, there's so much we can be doing within the societal [00:46:10] context. And we're talking about this in the, in, in the particular thread of toxic masculinity, but this exists in a racial context, it exists in a sexual orientation [00:46:20] context. It exists in a number of different lenses and. The pattern yet persists around us, spending a disproportionate amount of time, trying to counsel victims [00:46:30] around how they need to modify their behavior and be less authentic and not enough time asking ourselves why it's to such a degree where we need people to modify their [00:46:40] behavior, because there are people out there that think this is acceptable conduct.

So. I completely agree with you, and I'm glad we were able to spend some time discussing it today. Cause I think it's an important conversation [00:46:50] for us to be having. Um, and I think it's an important dialogue. I think it's, I think it's equally disappointing by the way that the majority of messages or a large volume messages that [00:47:00] you received were from men who told you to stay in your lane, like, uh, with, with respect.

This is all of our lane. This is, you know, this is how this is the world that we live in [00:47:10] and women, um, in our world are an incredible component to ensuring that we have a, the places that I want to live, the, the, the world that I wanna exist in [00:47:20] provides equal opportunity and is devoid of discrimination.

And it is devoid of, of scenarios whereby people need to modify their behavior out of risk. And this is [00:47:30] exactly the lane that you should be in. And I think it's disappointing that people see that. And so don't see it that way. Um, and at the same time to your earlier point, I'm optimistic that [00:47:40] as our society evolves and as people like you stand up and say, this is not acceptable.

And as we pass lessons down to, you know, people in our network, but also the next generations of [00:47:50] people that we gain a greater understanding of let's spend our time focusing on the things that are actually meaningful in terms of the differences between us. The [00:48:00] gender, you know, the, the, the wardrobe, selection, race, sexual orientation, these are not relevant areas of segmentation.

They, they, [00:48:10] they don't matter. They shouldn't matter. Unfortunately, a lot of cases they do matter, and I'd like to get to a place where we can transcend those and get to a place [00:48:20] where. We as a society can look at the, the merits of an individual based on things like their integrity and things like their values [00:48:30] and look at, you know, how they show up in this world and, and in what, in, in, in what they contribute to the broader society.

And that being used as an assessment of [00:48:40] value, not where somebody was born or the gender in which they were born. To me, it's wasted effort, wasted time. Um, and it's a distraction from bigger [00:48:50] problems that we frankly need to be solving as a society. I think about this pandemic, I think about the global economic crisis.

There are a lot of people struggling. Yeah. In a [00:49:00] lot of different places across gender, across race, across socioeconomic status, and rather than ripping ourselves apart from the inside and focusing [00:49:10] on issues that frankly shouldn't be a determining factor. We should be focusing instead on ripping down systemic barriers to inclusion, providing equal opportunity for people and trying to lift us up [00:49:20] collectively, you know, uh, an age old adage, you know, a rising tide should lift all ships.

And I think that I look at the world as. A place for us to do that. And I'm glad there are people like you, Dominic, [00:49:30] that, that have a calling to, to, to share and be open to criticism and to at least table the conversation on a consistent basis. Because I think it's important that [00:49:40] people understand that this isn't a niche issue or a boutique issue or a red herring.

It's a very real concern. And ultimately, um, is something that we need to figure out [00:49:50] going 

Guest 1: [00:49:50] forward. Manda though. So eloquently said in the, um, you know, I'm just very grateful for you for providing the platform, uh, for me to, to, to share my voice and, and to, [00:50:00] uh, play a role in, in, in that constructive dialogue and things moving forward.

And I'm very grateful for the opportunity to speak with you today. 

Matt: [00:50:07] Pleasure my friend, and I'm looking forward to our next [00:50:10] chat because it seems like every time we connect, we never have a shortage of things to discuss. And, um, I hope one day in the very near future that you and [00:50:20] I can come together. We live in the same city for crying out loud, but we can come together, have a real coffee, sit across the table from each other, uh, and have a real [00:50:30] authentic conversation.

It's been a real pleasure getting to know you. But a real pleasure to, to have our conversations. I'm looking forward to the next one. 

Guest 1: [00:50:35] Uh, man, I, I generally hope that next one is in person because I got both my COVID [00:50:40] jabs. Um, um, I'm going out and talking to people 

Matt: [00:50:44] until then my friend be well and we'll talk real soon.

Cheers, Matt. Thank you.

[00:50:50] At bento HR, we enable your HR strategy with custom HR technology, procurement [00:51:00] implementations. And integrations, deliberate your team from administration enhance their productivity and experience to position them at the center of your organization's [00:51:10] transformation, where they belong with experience. As an HR executive myself, I have a real appreciation of the challenges facing today's HR leaders.

The world is [00:51:20] changing. Your industry is being disrupted. Your organization is transforming and all the while you're trying to do more with less. You're being asked to [00:51:30] simultaneously model fiscal restraint while the expectations of your departments are only increasing at bento HR, we can support you at every stage of your [00:51:40] transformation from architecting, the strategy to developing and selling the business case.

Internally we support procurement implementations [00:51:50] and ongoing sustainment, and we tie it all together with a deep knowledge of the HR profession. And over six decades of combined experiences from our founding [00:52:00] team who has worked in or supported large HR organizations across multiple industries, including, but not limited to financial [00:52:10] services, technology, retail, transportation, and healthcare, check out bento HR today to build your very own bento box, which doubles as your [00:52:20] business case for transformation.

Leveraging recent research into the upside of digital automation inside organizations. And with your help in answering a few simple [00:52:30] questions related to your organization, our bento builder will provide a directional business case for change. So log onto www dot bento, [00:52:40] hr.com and build your bento box today.