Lunatics Radio Hour
Episode 58 - The Enfield Poltergeist
Abby and Alan debate the existence of the paranormal through the lens of the infamous Enfield Poltergeist case from London.
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Here is the brick video, start at 7:30.
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Music by Michaela Papa & Jordan Moser. Poster Art by @pilar.kep
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Cheers to Chaos: Reality TV & CocktailsJoin hosts Will and Marisa as they dive into the most entertaining moments from reality TV
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
Abby and Alan debate the existence of the paranormal through the lens of the infamous Enfield Poltergeist case from London.
Lunatics merch, available here!
Here is the brick video, start at 7:30.
---
Check out Abby's book Horror Stories. Available in eBook and paperback.
Music by Michaela Papa & Jordan Moser. Poster Art by @pilar.kep
Lunatics Magazine is available here. Subscribe to our newsletter! Follow us on Instagram @thelunaticsproject and on YouTube - Films About Lunatics.
--
Consider helping Black Trans folks by donating to the Marsha P Johnson Institute.
Subscribe to Anti-Racism Daily - a daily email newsletter from Nicole Cardoza.
Also, consider donating to The Loveland Foundation, a fund that provides therapy for Black women.
Listen to Technically A Conversation, anywhere you listen to podcasts.
Cheers to Chaos: Reality TV & CocktailsJoin hosts Will and Marisa as they dive into the most entertaining moments from reality TV
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:You're listening to the lunatics radio hour. I'm Abby, this is Alan. Hello. And today we are talking about the end field Poltergeist and what the end field Poltergeist
Speaker 3:And F okay. Which
Speaker 2:Is a real paranormal case that happened in London.
Speaker 3:Are you doing real with like air quotes?
Speaker 2:I mean, well, I'm going to present the evidence. I'm going to present both sides and we will, at the end have to decision how we feel. This is a very famous paranormal incident that happened over a span of two years and, uh, actually made its way into several Hollywood adaptations. So I think it's, uh, it's a good thing to look at when we're talking about the history of horror.
Speaker 3:Have I seen any of these movies? No.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know. I don't know what you get.
Speaker 3:I'm just trying to think. Cause you know, I'm, I'm not one to immediately jump on the Poltergeist bandwagon. So you just got to give me something,
Speaker 2:I'm going to give you a cold, hard evidence.
Speaker 3:My skepticism meter is off the charts right now.
Speaker 2:That's okay. That's fair. I actually approached this case as very skeptical. And so there's some interesting bits that are hard to explain. There's also some bits that I think, I mean, in my personal opinion, right. That this is sort of a hybrid type of situation. Okay. And I'll, I'll lay out my cards at the end, but I do think that th there was a few moments that have stuck with me that I can't quite explain.
Speaker 3:Okay. Here, refreshing open mind.
Speaker 2:That's right. Open mind. Open heart.
Speaker 3:Tell, tell me about this very real Poltergeist.
Speaker 2:Okay. Today's sources, an article from the guardian, the end field Poltergeist, a skeptic speaks and a channel four documentary from 2007 called and field Poltergeist and Wikipedia. Uh, not actually, I didn't Google it. I didn't use Wikipedia Wikipedia once. No, these two sources were very dead.
Speaker 3:Okay. Skepticism meter is even further off the charts.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. Okay. The Enfield Poltergeist is a real life haunting or at least a claim taunting that has made its way into Hollywood. Most notably as the subject of the conjuring two, it's a case that divided the paranormal community. Some easily identify it as a hoax and others are not so sure, especially with the witness accounts of both members of the BBC and local police. In addition to the afflicted family, the wonderful thing about this case, whether it's actually paranormal, not evidence still exists for us to evaluate this case was heavily documented, resulting in photographs, video, and audio recordings, some of which we will play during this episode.
Speaker 3:Okay. Oh you so you you're, you're packing some, some evidence unpacking some evidence today. Okay. That's that's a welcome change of pace.
Speaker 2:She's me. Wow. Our story starts at two 84 green street in Enfield London. The year is 1977. The year of our Lord single mother, Peggy Hodgson calls, police to report that her furniture is moving on its own. And that two of her children are hearing knocking noises coming from inside the house.
Speaker 3:Just imagine that phone call.
Speaker 2:I mean that that's, it's gotta be pretty bad. She's British. I can't provide the two voices in an interview for channel four, the youngest daughter, Janet who's 11 recounts. The first experience claiming that the noises and shuffling originated in a chest of drawers in a back bedroom. The mother Peggy came upstairs to tell the girls to stop fighting and making noise. They told her that it was the chest of drawers moving on its own.
Speaker 3:It's the chest of tragus Martha. When
Speaker 2:Peggy tried to push the drawers back, she couldn't, it was then that they knew something was wrong. And so I'm going to set the stage a little here. So we have single mother Peggy. Okay. What's a, what is a chest of drawers? Like a dresser dresser. Got it. Okay. That was the thing that was really okay. Try trying to really paint a picture. Sure. Okay. The right we're we're analytic, right? We're we're looking at this as investigators. So we have single mother Peggy Hodgson who has four children. Yeah. The two, she has four children, but two daughters that are really the focus of this case. Okay. So Janet age 11 at the time and Margaret age 13 at the time. Okay. Um, and they live in a rented flat in, uh, endless area of London. Right, right. And it's a flat because we're in London. That's right. Trying to fit in. It got so bad that Peggy and the girls went next door to seek help of a neighbor. They could Nottingham, the neighbor comes over and he hears the knocking. Follow him from room to room. As he's walking through the house investigating.
Speaker 3:Was he wearing tap shoes?
Speaker 2:No, he wasn't. That's a big point in the documentary that they bring up. Nobody was wearing tap shoes. That was before scales. Uh, he actually grew pretty frightened. Like he was freaked out. He was a builder. He was like a construction worker. So he understood, right. Like the settling noises of a house or the pipes and things like that. And to, to him, this was like, he couldn't as someone who was in construction, explain like what was happening. He knows what's in the walls. Right. You know, it's like, for example, all of the time I call you once a week and I say, I hear noises. And you say, it's, it's just the noise is your house makes right. It's just the noises your apartment makes well, and I say, no, it's goes and
Speaker 3:You were okay. So yes. Uh, especially apartment buildings, which, you know, this is also what we're talking about in this case. Yeah. When you live in big cities, weird noises happened. You have no idea what your neighbors are doing.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, okay. But they'll, some of them are coming from my own radiators, but that's fine.
Speaker 3:And radiators make all sorts of strange noises.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Not like this. So anyway, Vic coming over, right. The neighbor coming over and sort of confirming that these noises weren't normal, just freaked everybody out a lot more. So the next step was to call the police, uh, and several officers arrive and there's actually a video of a female officer who witnessed a chair move. As she investigated the reports at two 84 green street, there's video footage of officer Carolyn heaps explaining this sighting. She says that she watched, as the chair came off the floor about half an inch or so, and slid a four feet to the right. She checked to see if there was like a indent on the floor or, you know, some kind of reason it would have slid. She also placed a marble on the ground to see if it, if it just sort of naturally sloped a certain way. She said four feet. Yes. It hovered about half an inch and then flew four feet to the right. No
Speaker 3:1.3 meters. She said feet, instant suspicion. Okay.
Speaker 2:Okay. She placed a marble on the ground to see if it would roll in the same direction as the chair, which it did not. She thoroughly investigated to make sure that the chair wasn't rigged in any way sh uh, like right. She made sure there was no strings on it. It was not being manipulated. She's a police officer. Okay. Gotcha. Thank you. So she's over Peggy called the mom calls the police, right? She's freaked out the police come. Bunch of officers are there. This is officer Carolyn heaps. And while she's interviewing one of the children, she sees this
Speaker 3:Like fly across the room and then she takes out her standard-issue marble. It does not roll. Yeah. So,
Speaker 2:Okay. And she, so she, she's a police officer. She's a skeptic she's fig trying to figure, she's trying to prove that something that they're playing a prank on her. Right. And she can't come to that conclusion. Right. Okay. She's found no evidence that anything has been tampered with. Got it. So the police are unable to draw any conclusions around what was happening in the house. And they sort of say, we're going to have to like, look into this right. And get back to you. So they leave the family. The next thing that happens is that the daily mirror catches wind from Vic Nottingham, the neighbor, the daily mirror, which is a very big newspaper newspaper. Got it. So they catch wind from Vic Nottingham. The neighbor sort of goes to the media, um, that something was happening at green street. They sent journalists over to investigate. Vic explained that there had already been multiple witnesses, including the police. So the media is like, Oh, that's kind of interesting. When the newspaper, men and photographer arrived, Peggy was already totally distraught. So there's like in this documentary, like the thing that everyone says, the word distraught so many times. Right. And like they come over to investigate and everybody's very worked up. So they set up cameras and anticipation. So this is still 76. Uh, this is 77 70. So it's all it all happened. This is like right as it's starting to happen, which is in 77,
Speaker 3:Trying to picture the technology. So they're film cameras, video cameras. Yep. Yep. So they're film cameras still or video. Okay.
Speaker 2:So they set up still cameras, um, and anticipation, but nothing happens. So the men actually start to pack up and load their car. When Vic runs out of the house and says the activity has started again, Oh, the daily mirror journalist describes the scene back inside the house as pure chaos, everyone was screaming as objects were flying around the room, the journalist tucked himself into a corner with a wide angle lens and started to stop as many photographs as possible. The journalist was actually hit in the head with a flying Lego brick, which was a S a very small object, but it was traveling so fast at the impact left a Mark on his eyebrow for several days following.
Speaker 3:So the polder guys was flinging Legos at ballistic speeds.
Speaker 2:So listen, okay. There's going to be moments in this, in this case where I know you're going to have a hard time, and this is one of those where these two reporters, one was a photographer. One was a reporter from the daily mirror. Yup. Come to this house to investigate. There is this documentary is from 2007, and it also includes footage from what, at the time where there, so they're being interviewed in 1977. They're being interviewed in 2007. Okay.
Speaker 3:So you're talking about the documentary that you watched.
Speaker 2:Yes. So I'm just saying in that time period, nobody has changed their story. Every single person that's interviewed, which is there's over 30 eyewitness accounts over the two years that this haunting is active. Yeah. Everybody is just as impassioned in 2007 and sure of what they saw as they were, when they were interviewed in 1977, these, these people are so convinced that they saw objects flying around the room. And these were reporters now, again, who, who knows what that means, that doesn't qualify you in any way.
Speaker 3:But like, they, they all worked for Fox news
Speaker 2:Who are reporters, and they are very sure of what they saw. Okay. The flying objects included silverware and ashtrays. In addition to the children's toys, the adults were actually trying to like run around the room and shove as many things as they could into the drawers to stop them from falling around, because it was felt like such a dangerous situation. And the men also confirmed that the children, the mother and the neighbor were not responsible for throwing me objects. Like they were all visible. They were all together that, you know, nobody was like off in a corner, throwing something everyone's hands were sort of like, you know, above the table. So to speak. Unfortunately, the developed photographs failed to demonstrate what the witnesses claimed to have seen though. There are tons of photographs and you can see the chaos, uh, the image or the items seem to be moving too fast, or they're not in frame or they're blurry. And it doesn't really like confirm. There's no like really damning evidence, right. That comes out of this. Got it. But that, that makes sense. Cause it's not real right though. The men are said fast and absolutely believe what they saw. They are met with a lot of criticism because the photographs, again, fail to illustrate that the flying objects existed in a meaningful way. And these are reporters. These are partners that take
Speaker 3:Photos for a living
Speaker 2:Just saying, okay, enter Maurice gross. One of the two key paranormal investigators on this case. Okay. Gross notes that his first interaction with the family in journalists was that everyone was very disturbed. Grocery assured the Hodgkin family, that they didn't need to be frightened anymore. Sort of like he's here to help. Right after spending several days on the scene, gross about that he needed reinforcements. Like he felt the level of haunting was outside of his scope. So he called in his friend guideline Playfair to join him for the investigation guy or G guy. Okay. I think G U Y guy depends
Speaker 3:On his nationality. How you pronounce it
Speaker 2:British only two weeks after the initial reports gross in Lyon. Playfair took to staying over at the family house and they ended up staying for 14 months.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay. So he's just like, Oh yeah, I just need to solve this ghost problem. Just let me crash here for free for 14 months.
Speaker 2:I don't know that they were living there. Maybe they were, but like more so that they, this was their full-time job for 14 months. Oh. So they got paid to no, they didn't get paid, but this was, this was what they did. Like they spent 14 months investigating this haunting. All right, Mr. Skeptic. Yup. Mr. Skeptic, they immediately identified the haunting as a Poltergeist. A Poltergeist is a famously playful, but dangerous type of intelligent haunting. Often in Poltergeist cases, there are someone, usually a child who is the center of attention for the spirit. Of course, this invoke skepticism that the child who seems to be the focus is actually the one behind the hoax. Right. Looking at famous halter Geist cases, like the bell, which we often see that this paranormal activity starts at the time of puberty bell witch. Oh yeah. You've never heard of the bell witch, the bell, which is like a,
Speaker 3:Is this the same as the angel? Which
Speaker 2:The angel, which angel, which let's see Angelo,
Speaker 3:The number one signal by the band angel, which album angel witch.
Speaker 2:No, it's not. It's it's not a song at all. So good. So right. When Poltergeist cases, they usually happen at the time of puberty for one of the kids, there are three schools of thought around Poltergeist activity. One that the girls, uh, in this case are actually creating special, energetic forces that manifest the hauntings around them. So not that it's actually, um, a demon or something. So to speak that, that girls kind of like at the, at this very, uh, dangerous stage of puberty are actually creating this energy, right? So it is like supernatural, but it's different than a normal haunting theory
Speaker 3:For whatever reason, I'm immediately on board with that idea.
Speaker 2:That one actually has a lot of merit. As we talk through the second school of thought, of course, is that it's all a hoax. And the third of course is that it's actually paranormal in an actual video recording. You can watch as a BBC reporter, Roz Morris joins the paranormal investigators one night in the clip. We hear it unnerved Roz. As she scans the children's room with her camera, we see a chair that looks to have been recently overturned in two sleeping girls. So she actually comes into the, to their room. She heard something turns on our camera, turns on her microphone goes into the girls room. They're sleeping in their beds. They look passed out to her, but the chair, you could see this there's, the footage exists. The chairs in the middle of the room, upside down, banging noises are heard in the background from other areas of the house, right? So she enters this room, but you could hear the noises, um, in other rooms, which is something that happens a lot in this case where like you, you go to like investigate one noise and the noise moves to like, you know, it's kind of like, it's teasing. It's like this playful energy. Okay. Ross also notes as she records that she hopes you can't hear her handshaking and the microphone because she's so scared
Speaker 3:Handling noise. One-on-one quick pro tip for all you out there. If you are ever dealing with the paranormal and you are just so terrified, make sure you invest in a good shock Mount. It will completely remove the handling noise and isolate the microphone. That's a great tip. Thank you. You're welcome.
Speaker 2:In other accounts, the investigators captured knocking noises. They explained that the noises would move again. Like I just said around the house in TV interviews, you can hear the noises in the background as the girls were questioned on air and thus enter our first audio clip. Here we go.
Speaker 1:Partner with exactly why I was doing that yesterday morning. And it's still near again now.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I know what you're going to say. And yes, that knocking noise dust does proves nothing. Right? Proves nothing.
Speaker 3:So it sounds like a Poltergeist if
Speaker 2:You asked me all right, but that is our first bit of evidence to enter into the investigation and our most compelling. No, not certainly not. We're going to escalate here. We're certain we're warming up. Okay. Things on green street turned up another notch in October of 1977. At this time the family was sleeping in the same room because they were so afraid that they wouldn't sleep in their own bedrooms. One night, there was a tremendous noise of vibrations. Lyon Playfair describes the scene stating that he thought someone was drilling a hole in the wall of the house because violent shaking took over. As the paranormal investigators entered the room, the family was sleeping in. They saw the metal front of the fireplace with a pipe attached, totally detached from the fireplace, like fixture. Right. And move across the room. So it's not a fireplace. Like we maybe think of with like wood, it had like, it was almost like the heavy metal framing of like the front of a woodstove, something like that. So I would stove, but not quite, but, but something with an open front. Yeah, yeah, exactly. The item was so heavy and moved with such force that no one could understand how it was happening because it felt like such a threat. Something that could really harm the family. Right. The investigators removed all of the heavy metal pieces in order to protect the girls.
Speaker 4:And they just happened to sell them to the local scrap yard for lots of things.
Speaker 2:No, no. Allen, this event sent shockwaves through the investigation. There was no way in 11 year old Janet or a 13 year old Margaret would have been strong enough to maneuver this. Right. Like even if they were doing some kind of trickery and pulling wires or whatever, how would these tiny girls be able to literally throw this? Like it was like, they couldn't even pick it up. Like the adults couldn't even move it. And so how would these little girls be able to, I've done that
Speaker 4:You ever been kicked in the shin by a toddler. They have spookily strong strength when they want it.
Speaker 2:I mean, I will say I used to nanny for my cousin's newborn child and trying to put medicine in that girl's mouth was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do.
Speaker 4:Throwing fricking rod iron Gates at you
Speaker 2:At the time, Janet was actually sent away for testing to see if she could manipulate metals or other substances in any way. And, uh, here we go, a scientific researcher recalls that he watched Janet bend metal without physical touch. He, he kind of has all of these like weird graphs that he shows that don't really mean much, but he like gave her like some spoons and stuff. And, and he said after a little bit of practice, she was actually able to manipulate the elements mentally.
Speaker 4:So he gave her some, some what spoons, some spoons. Okay. Got it. Copies spoons.
Speaker 2:Jim is described as a pure extrovert, super intelligent and gifted child. She was 11, 11. Okay. The investigators now shifted their energy towards her. Trying to understand if she was the source of the chaos surrounding the Hodgson family, the general in the paranormal community is that there's usually a major upheaval within the family that comes before the start of Poltergeist activity previous to the first report of activity at Enfield Peggy and the children's father had divorced. The father had a new girlfriend, which had upset Peggy and the kids. Additionally, the Hodgkins were struggling financially. Okay. So right there, there was plenty of, uh, emotional fodder. Sure. The activity got so bad at the house at the investigator, sent the Hodgkin family away for a week to collect it on the sea, to what? It's a town like Clacton on sea. Oh, gotcha. Because gross actually feared for the safety and mental health of the family, because this was every day in and out. Right. Everyone was disturbed and scared and hysterical. Had
Speaker 4:The child been returned to them at this point? Or is she off Ben
Speaker 2:And spoons? Oh yeah, no. She sort of just went there for like a day visit. I believe. Got it. Unfortunately, as the family came back from the holidays, the haunting picked up again with even more vigor than before Reggie had all this fricking training grow, started to try and communicate with the entity asking for, to respond to his questions. Um, so like one knock for yes. Two knocks for no sort of a thing in this moment, gross asks if the entity died in the house and it knocked back 53 times, which kind of like, uh, in the moment, um, in the recording, like upsets gross, right? He's like annoyed.
Speaker 4:Okay. Listen, one knock for yes. Two knocks for no, what the does 53 knocks mean?
Speaker 2:Uh, and so the, so gross then asks the haunting. If it's teasing him and it responds by throwing objects at him, spoons, let us review the evidence spoons or Lego's this time, let us review the evidence. There. It goes
Speaker 5:All you have, you got a guy with me,[inaudible]
Speaker 4:It had the audacity to throw a pillow
Speaker 2:And a cardboard box. And that was a recording. That was an actual, according from the investigation. And was that sound only? Yes. Okay. It is. That's the thing it's annoying. A lot of the evidence isn't like, you're like if you only had a fricking video camera, like we were, this would be putting into right. Amazing how that happens. Well, I think at the time in 1977, it's not so common to have video cameras recreationally. Right? That's fair. By November. Janet was starting to worry the adults around her, not only was she caught drawing very disturbing images. There was a shift in her demeanor, the investigators call this phase violent. Janet, describe the behavior as almost epileptic type fits and transmits, where she became incredibly strong and dangerous. Multiple times. She ran head first at a wall. Her mother and the investigators grew scared both of her. And for her wellbeing during these moments, Janet was so angry. She needed to be physically restrained. At least once a doctor came to the house to inject the young girl with a sedative to calm her down. Okay. It was around this time that Janet first started levitating. That's new[inaudible] during a particularly violent encounter. Janet had been asleep upstairs when she was allegedly pulled out of bed by unseen forces, the door then opened on its own and she was dragged down the stairs, headfirst where she encountered the investigation team. Um, and shall we listen to the audio recording? Okay.
Speaker 1:[inaudible] I know you're not convinced yet.
Speaker 3:I mean, that was a little hard to understand.
Speaker 2:Well, that's because they're British. So British things had gotten, so out of hand that grows in line play fair. Took her to doctor Ian Fletcher to be hypnotized in hopes of better understanding what was going on with young Janet. So, right. So she, while she's at the doctor to be hypnotized his first question. Yep.
Speaker 3:Are you having a game at me?
Speaker 2:A game at me? The first question was who is responsible. Who's responsible for this. Janet immediately responds that her and her sister Margaret were okay. Well, there you go. But then she immediately redacted that to say that she didn't know who was responsible for the hauntings. Typical. So a camera was set up a still camera in order to capture events remotely. Once the investigators heard noises coming from the room, right. So they heard noises, they could trigger like an automatic thing to take. I forget exactly the cadence, but it was like four pictures a second or so it was really fast to take all of these photos. Right. So kind of like you can see these famous images now, which seemed to show Janet levitating and moving across the room though. I'm going to be honest with you. Yeah. This specific piece of evidence says nothing to me. It looks 100% like a kid who jumped from one bed to the other bed. Let me see levitating, Janet Hodgson, or just, even if you type end field Poltergeist, it'll come up. Can you spell Enfield? E N field. Okay. So,
Speaker 3:All right. I'm, I'm now looking at these photos and all of you. Um, I, I know I'm the only one out there who is a bit skeptical at this point. Everyone else is a hundred percent onboard. Um, however, I, I just Googled it and field Poltergeist, Google images, you look at the picture of the girl and the red night gown.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's Janet.
Speaker 3:And this is a hundred percent. Looks like she just jumped off.
Speaker 2:I will say one thing she's really high in the air, which I think she's is totally attainable. Cause she was probably a fairly like athletic child, but she's like a foot and a half off the ground. Well, there's other pictures where she's really high. She's like almost at the ceiling and I am like over the bed. Yeah. But if she's jumping, like I am worried about her crash landing a little bit now. Like it could have been pretty traumatic if she landed on something hard because she was so tall.
Speaker 3:I mean, yeah. She's possibly going to get hurt. She's also going to get hurt by throwing big, heavy things around, but okay. So here's the evidence that makes these photos for me look particularly staged. Yeah. Look at her hair. Her hair is up it. If she was floating, it wouldn't be wishing upwards as if she was falling down and photographed.
Speaker 2:I think. Yeah. I think now that you've said it, cause there is something about them that feels very less. It just feels like she's jumping. It does. I agree. I agree. I don't think this is the evidence that's going to sway anybody, but those are like the famous images from the case. So I felt like we needed to talk about them.
Speaker 3:She also, there's a striking resemblance to my mother as a child.
Speaker 2:Really? Yes. Well, as an adult, she looks much different. She has like blonde hair. She's actually interviewed in the documentary and she comes across as very, um, like somber and freaked out. Uh,
Speaker 3:And sorry for lying.
Speaker 2:No, she, she, again, every single person is very committed to the story from the seventies,
Speaker 3:Except that one time that they got the girls by themselves and said, who's doing it. And the girls say, Oh, we did it.
Speaker 2:Well, they said who was responsible for, and so the kind of point of contention there is like was Janet saying I'm the trigger. Oh, okay. All right. Fair. Right. You know? Okay. So let's talk about December 14th, 1977. I thought you'd never ask December 14th, 1977 was the day of Janet's first period. It was also the day that two independent witnesses outside of the paranormal and journalistic teams that had been familiar with the family saw Janet levitating.
Speaker 3:These were that's when these photos were taken. Nope. This is a separate, separate incident because he had no wonder. She's just jumping like crazy.
Speaker 2:Okay. So let's talk about it because those photos she's vertical, right? She's like, it looks like she's jumping, which to me is a shop sit down. She's not hanging from her toes. Like she's not, she's jumping the, this incident in both of these people are interviewed, but a man who's making like bakery deliveries next door, okay. Here's a commotion in this house, in the Hodgson house, he looks up and in the second floor window, he can see Janet levitating, horizontally, and he can see toys and other things like floating around her and she screaming and totally throwing a fit. Right. And that's why all these people hear her and look because she's freaking out. Sure. But, um, what she is justified, she is totally horizontal. Okay. So it's not the same thing of these photos where she's jumping and she's vertical. It was bizarre. So that's the first witness. The second witness is a neighbor across the street. She observed the same thing, Janet, totally horizontal and screaming, right. This neighbor actually was so freaked out. Uh, that the first thing she does, so she's coming home, right? She like gets home. She looks across, she sees this. She kind of, and everybody, I think at Mary kind of knows the story of what's going on it at this property. Sure. The neighbor is so freaked out. She goes inside in document. She says like, she takes off, her coach takes off her hat. She goes to her bed and she tries to jump horizontally. She tries to recreate it. Right. And of course she can't do it.
Speaker 4:It's not easy. It's not easy. You'd have to be a trained phony.
Speaker 2:So of course, eye witness testimony is almost as unhelpful as a series of still photographs. The frustrating elements of this case are the mountains of witnesses over 30, over the two year period and piles of evidence that don't definitively prove anything either way. So like, yeah. Do we trust these people? Do, did they know about the rumors of the haunting? So what they saw, they, you know, inflated, do we care that it was two independent witnesses? Do we think one influence the other? Like they didn't know each other one was a delivery person. One was a neighbor like, yeah. But you know, there's so many complexities to mob mentality to what are the rumors circulating the town? What are the things that could have impeded their subconscious to, to paint what they saw. Right. Sure. Um, so we'll never know, but the end field poultry guy still had one final push in it. Gross in line. Playfair heard the noises of a dog barking one day. Okay. And of course, Alan, there were no dogs to speak of. There were no dogs at the property. There are no dogs next door. Whoa. Um, I know terrible. And they also confirmed that they would hear this noise while in the presence of the children. So they would be watching Janet they'd be watching Margaret. They would hear the noise. And so to them, they were like, okay, it's not Janet, it's not Margaret, but there's this noise, this Phantom dog barking.
Speaker 4:Right? Yeah. And sound recording and playback had not invented yet.
Speaker 2:They did not think that. So they didn't think the children were making the noise inspired by this development. They decided to try to provoke the Poltergeist to speak to them directly. So they thought if it good bark, it could speak. Right? Sure.
Speaker 3:I agree. Wholeheartedly.
Speaker 2:They provoke the Poltergeist to a new level. How a tape recorder was set up one night when Janet and Margaret were in bed,
Speaker 3:They say, Oh wow. You know, if we need a tape recorder and the kids just like whip one out, but that they had under their pillow
Speaker 2:And the investigators start to ask questions. Here we go.
Speaker 3:Oh, we're going to play a clip. So is this the damning evidence? Is this the smoking gun?
Speaker 2:I will say the, this voice, this paranormal voice is the most famous part of this case. Okay. So that was the first recorded incident. This, uh, becomes very prolific, this demonic voice. Okay. So to be, to clarify, these deep voices are coming out of Janet's 11 year old mouth, which was very shocked.
Speaker 3:Okay. Oh yeah. That is shocking.
Speaker 2:But they weren't like disembodied voices. Right? Like they were clearly
Speaker 3:Right. It's her, it's different voice coming out of the girl.
Speaker 6:Good evening. Good evening. Some of you there. What's he called? Isn't it.
Speaker 2:So there are tons. There's like hours of recorded evidence of this voice
Speaker 3:And just the worst possible quality.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, it's from 1977 on I'm so sorry. They didn't have you on set to help.
Speaker 3:1977. They could have done a much better job. They put the fricking microphone next to the kid. It's not that hard
Speaker 2:In perhaps a controversial move,
Speaker 3:But he put the tape recorder of the corner of the room. The most controversial of all right.
Speaker 2:Gross actually would put water or small objects in Janet's mouth as a way to prove that she was the one making the noise. There's, it's kind of like abusive, but he would ask her to put like small objects or even like take a big gulp of water, tape her mouth shut, hear the voice coming out of her. And then she would untape her mouth and she would spit out the glass of water.
Speaker 3:It's the ventriloquist, it's the ventriloquist trick. They drink a glass of water and still produce the shoes.
Speaker 2:11 is she been a trained vocal like impersonator. They already trained her out of bend the spoons clearly she's talented. So there are both video and audio recordings of the demon voice coming out of Janet, even casually during interviews. Like there's some interviews where she's like sitting sort of like her legs crossed and like tapping it. And miling playfully at the reporter as the demon, the stuff like demonic voices is answering the questions. Scientific evaluations discovered that the voice was coming from Janet's false vocal fold, which is right above the larynx.
Speaker 3:It was a false vocal fold.
Speaker 2:It is. So the original thought was like, Oh, this is coming from her larynx. Right. Um, it's, it's almost like described, you know, the one you make like the voice for the story introductions.
Speaker 3:I don't know what you're talking about. That's
Speaker 2:Not me. Come on and do, do a sample for the people
Speaker 3:That I think you're mistaking it with the Poltergeist that
Speaker 2:Come on. It's good for demonstrating purposes. Sure. What do you want me to say? The Enfield Poltergeist field Poltergeist, right? So when you make that kind of noise, it's not coming from your normal voice box. It's coming from this bit right above the larynx, despite skeptics, that insist it's very easy to produce a fake voice. Like you just did something similar. Yeah. The investigators point out that she would speak with, with this demonic intonation for up to three hours at a time, she would never cough. She would never get a sore throat and she would never show any signs of being uncomfortable. So like, if you were making that voice for three hours at a time, like I can't do it once without coughing. It's an uncomfortable thing to do.
Speaker 3:Right. But women can internalize in incredible amount of pain.
Speaker 2:That's, that's a, that's a great counterpoint. The demon came across as very childish, often swearing and very angry. And so this becomes a point of discussion, right. Because it's sort of like works in swears a lot. It says. And so there's Tourette's episode. Well there, yes. A hundred percent. I definitely want to talk about that. I also think there's some, without her being diagnosed in a certain way, like just this like liberation of a kid, a 11 year old kid getting to swear, you know, like I, I do think that that's interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 3:She does it in a silly voice. She gets away with it all this attention. Right. I mean are years.
Speaker 2:Right. And obviously we're, we'll talk about that, but like so much attention, so many clear, psychological reasons to want to do something like that.
Speaker 3:She could have even medical conditions aside. She could have just convinced herself that it was real. Right. And she's
Speaker 2:Totally, and you see, you know, in the possession and trust episode, which everyone should listen to, if you haven't already, it's one of our finest moments, our finest hours, um, with our friend Michael crosser, from Jollyville radio, we talk a lot in that episode, Michael sort of explains to us, uh, as someone who has Tourette's that the more something is sort of like taboo, right? Like a screaming bomb and airplane, that kind of a thing. The more that, that can become a tick. And so it's the idea of like the more,
Speaker 3:The most inappropriate thing to do in that situation you are
Speaker 4:Compelled to do, to do right.
Speaker 2:Being interviewed for a BBC, she's going to say, it. And again, I don't know that she has ticks at all. I'm not going to diagnose her or, or whatever, but, but it's an interesting lens.
Speaker 4:Sure. To give it a look through, right? Yes. Especially just the fact that she was, yeah. She was doing all the things that she absolutely should not have been doing in those situations.
Speaker 2:11 year old girl, she was at the height of puberty. She was living in this rented house with four siblings and a mother was just gone through a divorce. The dad had already other people, apparently the dad had like totally kind of abandoned the family with a new girlfriend or at least that's how they felt they were struggling to eat. Right. Well, we don't, we don't shame here. Is that a bad word? Yeah. I don't think it's an amazing word. Hussy. You think that's like a sexy word? It sounds like something like a mad mom says it is even the investigators from the very beginning who witnessed objects flying around the room, started to roll their eyes at the demonic voice. The feeling at the time was that it was all getting a bit theatrical and going on for too long. Right. So even people who were like, yeah, we saw silverware flying across the dining room. Now they're sort of like, it's been a long time. You guys are still in the news. You have all of these interviews with this demonic voice. Like, uh, you know, but then one of the voices that emerged from Janet was that of a man who claimed to be called bill. And so there was actually like, I think they said like 600 different characters that came out right. Which is where it all gets to be a little like mismanaged. But one of them was a man who claimed to be called bill. He said, Buffalo, no first name bill, last name Wilkins. He said, he went blind and suffered from a hemorrhage and died in a chair. Let us go to the tape.
Speaker 7:I want you to tell me whether you remember what happened to you when you died.[inaudible]
Speaker 2:Not too long later. Terry Wilkins contacted the investigators. He came forward as the son of bill Wilkins who had died in the home that the Hodgins were now living in what Terry Wilkins confirmed that exactly what the voice describes is how bill Wilkins died. So he went blind, he suffered from a hemorrhage and he died in a chair downstairs. The paranormal investigators actually do not believe the voice belongs to bill Wilkins. They believe that the voice is that of a psychic joker who's playing games with them. So this playful Poltergeist who is taking on the identity of different entities, who may be, had passed in the home, but not that all of these different entities were actually haunting the home. So it's a very complex tech or something. It's like a wafer cookie. I don't know. It's like a Kit-Kat or you know, an onion. Yeah. I was trying to be more straight to, I didn't want to be normal, you know?
Speaker 3:Okay. Something with layers. Oh, you know, uh, that, that, that gemstone it's actually not, well, it's technically a semiprecious stone, which is a very, it's a bit of a misnomer it's made from car paint. So in the car painting facilities, as hundreds and thousands of cars go through the painting facility, little bits of, of spray get onto the walls and the floors and whatnot. And eventually that gets chiseled away. And so car paint is incredibly durable. And so eventually, you know, it's like in injure, so thick. Right. And, but it's such a solidified thing that the thing is basically a rock. Cool. And it has so many different layers and they make such amazing jewelry. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Whoa. That's cool. Yeah. I love that. I got to check that out.
Speaker 3:I don't know that Tony, I don't know the name of it, but boy does it have layers?
Speaker 2:Yeah. In July of 1978, Peggy Hodgson had her daughter, Janet admitted to a hospital for psychological analysis after two months of testing. So Janet stayed at this hospital for two months. Doctors were able to find nothing wrong with her mentally or physically. So with her sort of like, you know, not have approval from the medical staff. She is released after this extended leave of absence from the house, the activity on green street started to die down. Peggy. The mother actually lived in the house until she died in 2003. And Janet and Margaret are sort of tried to stay out of the public eye as much as they can. They'd take a few interviews here and there, but they really live somewhat normal lives. Again, this case sent shockwaves through the paranormal community because some investigators are really convinced by the evidence, especially those who had firsthand encounters. And a lot of other people think that it's very clearly like looking at this evidence from the outside. It doesn't all add up. Okay. Ed and Lorraine Warren actually visited the house in 1978. Oh, they're famous. Which is how we get the connection to the conjuring two. And at the, so this was at the peak of the activity and they believed the case to be supernatural, but they also seem to believe most cases to be supernatural, Maurice gross and guy Elian Playfair believes that some elements of the haunting were paranormal and others were exaggerated by the girls themselves. So even the investigators that had sort of taken up shop, right. Uh, at the address. Yeah. Like they, they thought that some totally some of these things that happened were exaggerated by the girls that some of there were some real gemstones. Right. And others were the imaginations of a 11 and 13 year old girl who suddenly have all of this attention of the media running wild.
Speaker 4:Sure. That stands to reason.
Speaker 2:All right. Let's talk about skepticism. Okay.
Speaker 4:Okay. Where do you want to start
Speaker 2:Fight the evidence in many accounts of this paranormal activity, there is Hirsch skepticism
Speaker 4:As well. Yeah, because it's all sounds fake.
Speaker 2:There were reasons to believe that Janet was not entirely truthful, damning evidence, including video footage of her bending spoons and attempting to bend a metal bar while she didn't realize she was being recorded. Fricking
Speaker 4:Knew it. She spoon, faker.
Speaker 2:She was also caught bang a broom handle on the ceiling and hiding equipment, um, of the paranormal investigators. So like, uh, there's this one thing where they kind of come over. Right. And she's like, Oh, Oh no, like the ghost stole your, your recorder. Right. And they look, and it's like under her bed and she didn't realize that it was recording the whole time. So they caught her being like, Oh, won't it be funny if, if they, you know, she was playing a prank on them, she was 11. And so like, of course she's going to play pranks on them. And, and the investigators have that attitude of like, of course she's 11. She's going to play pranks on us. She's going to have her fun with this. That doesn't necessarily mean that a hundred percent of the case is fake. Right.
Speaker 4:It doesn't necessarily mean that a hundred percent of the cases fake. It does immediately throw doubt on the vast majority.
Speaker 2:[inaudible] because so many journalists and investigators entered into the scene. Some claim that you can clearly track the correlation between conversations and suggestions. For example, that after Graham Morris of the daily mirror told the girls that Poltergeist are known to use fire. The haunting at Enfield suddenly included incidents of fire.
Speaker 4:After she was taken to the facility to test. If she could bend spoons, she came back and could bend spoons.
Speaker 2:There was also a torn out article found in Janet's belongings and Enfield. It covered the story of Matthew Manning, who was another child that was a victim to a Poltergeist. The first incident reported in the Matthew Manning case was a missing teapot, which also happened to Enfield. There's also a school of thought that some of Janet's symptoms, including this lack of breath, apparitions, appearing at night could be attributed to sleep paralysis. She also felt as though she was being dragged out of bed, right. When we S we listened to the recording from that incident, which is a very common thing that happens in sleep paralysis. We actually have an episode on this and I forget the Japanese even have like a word for it because it's so common in Japan to have this feeling in the middle of the night of being pulled from your bed. And so do we, do we have an episode on this? Yeah, we do. It's called sleep paralysis. Yeah, that was cool. Yeah. That was a good one. Yeah. I forgot about that one. Actually. It's, it's, it's a super common thing. Like, you know, in, in the episode, my sister's husband, my brother-in-law tells his stories of, of having those feelings. And so it's not so hard to think that, you know, there could have been something like sleep paralysis or some other psychological thing that was happening in conjunction with a distressed period of time that went too far. Right. From a psychological standpoint, there were outside factors that may have caused the children act out. So again, I know I keep saying like that Peggy was getting divorced. The mom was divorced, but just to like, say that wasn't super common in the seventies, you know? And so it was a big deal for the family and it really felt not that it's never not a big deal now, right. For the people involved, but that it was an unusual thing at the time. And so in addition to them feeling sad on the inside, they also had to deal with like the society.
Speaker 3:Gotcha. Are you going through the pain and turmoil of the separation of your own family, but you have to deal with the ridicule of your neighbors,
Speaker 2:Right, exactly. That, I mean, I would encourage everybody to take a deeper look at some of the evidence I can put together some, something maybe to outline at all, but here's what I'll say about this. Here are, here are my conclusions. Okay. You go first and then I'll go. I wonder what you're going to say. My thought is that I don't think there is a piece of evidence that I saw that really won me over. Right. I think the photographs are hard to interpret. I think the ones of her quote, unquote, levitating look as if she's just jumping across the room and everybody's looking very scared about it. Yes. I think the voice coming out of her is a bit dramatic for somebody that age. But I also think there's a lot of, especially after talking to Michael, like there's a lot of things that could cause that. And there's a lot of other examples of that kind of thing happening. What I do find interesting is the fact that so many adults, police officers, reporters, reporters for multiple news outlets, it, you know, parallel investigators should take them with a grain of salt, right? The mom, the kids sure. Take them with a grain of salt. Yep. Police officers and reporters and photographers from all of these different news outlets, not just one who maybe was like wanting to create some sort of sensationalist news, including the BBC, which is a super reputable source. All of these people have eye witness accounts. They, they claim that they have seen these things that they cannot explain. They think it's weird. They think it's, you know, it's a crazy thing that has happened to them. And they really believe that. And it's not just that they're saying it at the time, they're saying it 40 years later, like, you know, the story has not changed. And I know that that's not proof of anything. I totally concede that. Uh, but I, I do, I do think that that's an interesting phenomenon and something to pay attention to because it's not one person there's over 30 people that attest to this. And again, many of them are respected people in fields that are totally not related to paranormal investigation. They have no like a reporter claiming that they saw this doesn't make that report are more reputable in their field. Right. I agree. It could certainly hurt their reputation, but they still are very convinced and, and, uh, non budging that that is a hundred percent what they saw. And so I don't just totally dismiss that without a second thought. And so again, I think, yeah, probably a lot of this stuff is. Could all be. Sure. Could it be an elaborate hoax that all of these people were in on? Could it be no, no, no way to prove that it couldn't be, but kind of, I don't know. I'm I think maybe there were a few freaky things that happened and then 11 year old girl ran wild with that and exaggerated it for two years. Which again, we understand why
Speaker 4:I think you just hit the nail on the head. Something happened that was a little spooky, may supernatural.
Speaker 2:You don't think objects flying around the room is supernatural.
Speaker 4:I think objects flying around a room is definitely a supernatural. Is that exactly what happened? I don't know. But I feel like there was also a vast majority of a little girl who was incredibly talented and she realized that she had an ability for fooling these people. And it was fun because she's 11 and a Gator gave her so much intention, especially after a divorce, which was a horrible thing to go through. I mean, and now she has all these people that just like want to pay attention to her. And so what the most, the photographs useless. Sure. The voice recordings a bit more credible, but, but you know, anyone can make, these can just make, make a different voice. Right. But she did it for hours on end. That's impressive. But all you have to do is go to a death metal concert and they do the same exact thing
Speaker 2:About incidents where like he would ask the voice of question, the voice would answer and then the cardboard box or something would fly. You know, like she's not doing that. She's sitting there being interviewed. She's not doing that,
Speaker 4:But there's no proof.
Speaker 2:You can hear it on the recording. You can hear it. So yeah, sure. If someone could have thrown it at him and he could be in on this, but I don't think so. Like, I don't think that he's a crazy man
Speaker 4:Entire career hinges on him, proof of the paranormal,
Speaker 2:His entire career hinges on him. Not coming across as a Crock-Pot right. And crack pot, a Crock-Pot crack pot. I don't know. I'm not convinced that he is just like making up that like the mom, that everybody is just so good at keeping secrets that for 40 years nobody ever slept. I don't think that that's what ha what happened. I think that regardless of whatever happened, I at least think that people really believe, you know, so that doesn't mean that they saw whatever, but they, they all really believe,
Speaker 4:Oh, I will not debate you there. I, I will wholeheartedly believe, I believe in the fact that they believe that they saw something. Yeah. I do not believe that they saw what they think.
Speaker 2:That's because you hate fun. Yes.
Speaker 4:Yeah. The problem is that all, whenever I met with proof of these things, it's always, it's always the same. It's always a really awful photograph or really bad recording or something like that. It's amazing that all these recordings of the paranormal completely dropped off when people started walking around with HD cameras in their pockets.
Speaker 2:No, not so have I never showed you my favorite paranormal video?
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 2:So it's a recent video, like from the last, I dunno, five or 10 years, it's on YouTube. And I, I did like a write-up on Patrion in our early days of like the most haunting videos online. And this was my number one and it shows, it's like a guy who does like, um, urban exploring, but like in a rural minds. So he sort of like breaks into like abandoned factories and mind chefs and things, and like, you know, around. And so th so it's like a whole, it's like a long shot video, right. He's not splicing together. It's just him like holding a camera, walking through these spaces. Sure. So there's not like cuts and things like that. So he's walking through, I don't know exactly what the space is, but some sort of abandoned facility, and there's a bunch of like rubble and like couches. And like, it had clearly been like a hang spot or whatever, but I'm telling you the background because it's not, it's clearly not like reversed footage or anything. And he keys all of a sudden he's walking through and out of literally nowhere, a brick flies at him from like behind a trash can or something, you know, not even behind a trash can just for like, from the wall, like a brick flies out, uh, and like lands. And it's you, maybe you have to see the video to like, understand. Cause it sounds a little hokey. It was not that somebody else through this brick, you can tell from the video that there's no way I can explain it. I also think like, yeah, maybe paranormal stuff is hard to capture because it's tricky. It's tricky. Current normal, you know, it's normal. It's paranormal.
Speaker 4:Um, okay. So for all our listeners out there, yeah. I am offering Oh, a cash reward. Okay. Houdini$20 for anyone that gives concrete proof of the paranormal Arabic spender, huh? Yeah. I, I will. I'm a hundred percent good for it.
Speaker 2:I can vouch for that. Sending
Speaker 4:The proof$20 is yours. All right.
Speaker 2:You heard it here. I'm going to send him the brick video.
Speaker 4:Okay. And I will not believe it. Why? But you haven't even looked at it. I will give it a very fair shake.
Speaker 2:Okay. Okay. That's better than I will not believe it
Speaker 4:From the start. I mean, it didn't sound great.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna show you the video. This is. So it's actually funny because I just looked up this article that I wrote, this was like two years ago about like the most haunted videos, um, line. And the first one is a video from the Enfield Poltergeist full circle. But here's the brick video. And please watch it's cute up to the right time code.
Speaker 4:Okay. So this is the most haunted video on the internet. Well, that's here we go.
Speaker 8:Okay. Okay.
Speaker 2:You are so like you approach things with such a negative, like your baseline is to be teacher,
Speaker 8:That's it? Yup. My
Speaker 4:Baseline is to be a jerk.
Speaker 2:You were never going to believe it doesn't matter if, if the craziest happens to you, you're never going to believe it. You have a closed mind. No,
Speaker 4:No. That's not true. The problem is that it hasn't happened to me. I've worked. I work in the film industry. I've worked on ghost shows. Okay. Tell us about the bricks. Okay. There's nothing stopping this entire situation from being manufactured by a piece of fishing line.
Speaker 2:W w but right. But you don't have trust in this guy. He has a whole YouTube channel about channel. Like his YouTube channel is not dedicated to paranormal. His YouTube channel is him like, like exploring these cool historical sites. Like this is the only video on his channel, where there is this kind of a thing. So it's not like he's, he's like a trickster. Like he's again, sacrificing his own integrity by putting this kind of thing online. If it was a hoax, I think it looks, it looks freaky. Doesn't it? Isn't it like, it's hard to explain, like, sure. Yes. He could have done it a billion ways. Someone could have been hiding around the corner through it. It could have been fishing line. It could have been X, Y, and Z. It could have been CGI, but yeah,
Speaker 4:It could have been a homeless man down there that just like, what's this guy doing in my place. See anybody? There's a wall. There's debris everywhere. But you see where
Speaker 2:The brick originates.
Speaker 3:You don't see the brick sitting there. It just comes from behind something.
Speaker 2:Sorry. No, but whatever. I think the video is worth watching.
Speaker 3:Well, you've swayed me. I now believe in ghosts.
Speaker 2:You're so annoying. Fine. All right. Well, we will never agree again. I don't know. I don't know. Could it, could it be magnetic field energy, maybe that's it or such a jerk. I'll try to, I'll try to help you out here. No, you're being facetious anyway. Well, okay. I thought that I was finally kind of present a paranormal case that would peak your interest. And I guess that is not this case. So if anybody has any topics, suggestions, please let me know because, um, there's$20 can be yours.$20 can be yours. Plus the wonderful title of being the only human to ever convince Alan, that more than what he can see exists. Do you believe in love, Alan, can't see love, but you can feel it. I could feel the paranormal every day.
Speaker 3:Uh, I'm not going to be as close minded as to say these things don't exist. I will say that I have yet to see any convincing proof that make me personally believe. All right.
Speaker 2:Well, we'll be back for more. Yeah. Looking forward to it. Great. Well, thank you guys so much for listening. I hope you, at least the audience enjoyed this episode. I enjoyed it quite a bit. I enjoyed putting together the research and learning about this little sliver of paranormal history. I also really want to watch the conjuring two, because I haven't seen it. You can see this movies or this incidents from 77. So it actually doesn't predate some of the movies like the Exorcist, but you can see some of the similarities which also could have been drawn on, right? She could have like seen the Exorcist and other things and use that. Well, you know, movie terrible. I mean, worst things have happened right now. And 11 year olds talking in a di demonic voice for two years. Anyway. Thank you guys so much for listening. We appreciate all of the support. Hope you've enjoyed these episodes. You can follow us on Instagram at the lunatics project. Of course, I'm always going to talk about our really fun bonus episodes on Patrion, where we focus on horror movies, but all kinds of strange movies. Join us there. If you want some extra content from us, hope everyone has a wonderful and very safe new year. Remember COVID is real. What it, Israel, you know, it is real. It is scary. Everybody. Please be really careful. And
Speaker 4:So write that thing with all the scientific proof. Yes, I do believe it. Okay. Okay, great. I am with you there and until next time, bye. Goodbye.