Alan and Abby learn all about the history of necromancy. Starting with death rituals from early civilizations and ending with the major impact necromancy has on Greek and Norse mythology. Even more coming next week in part two.
Consider donating to Austin Mutual Aid (venmo @austinmutualaid) and take a look at this comprehensive list of orgs across Texas that need our help.
Lunatics merch, available here!
---
Consider helping Black Trans folks by donating to the Marsha P Johnson Institute.
Subscribe to Anti-Racism Daily - a daily email newsletter from Nicole Cardoza.
Also, consider donating to The Loveland Foundation, a fund that provides therapy for Black women.
Find out more about RAINN here.
---
Check out Abby's book Horror Stories. Available in eBook and paperback.
Music by Michaela Papa, Alan Kudan & Jordan Moser. Poster Art by Pilar Keprta @pilar.kep.
Lunatics Magazine is available here. Subscribe to our newsletter! Follow us on Instagram @thelunaticsproject and on YouTube - Films About Lunatics.
Alan and Abby learn all about the history of necromancy. Starting with death rituals from early civilizations and ending with the major impact necromancy has on Greek and Norse mythology. Even more coming next week in part two.
Consider donating to Austin Mutual Aid (venmo @austinmutualaid) and take a look at this comprehensive list of orgs across Texas that need our help.
Lunatics merch, available here!
---
Consider helping Black Trans folks by donating to the Marsha P Johnson Institute.
Subscribe to Anti-Racism Daily - a daily email newsletter from Nicole Cardoza.
Also, consider donating to The Loveland Foundation, a fund that provides therapy for Black women.
Find out more about RAINN here.
---
Check out Abby's book Horror Stories. Available in eBook and paperback.
Music by Michaela Papa, Alan Kudan & Jordan Moser. Poster Art by Pilar Keprta @pilar.kep.
Lunatics Magazine is available here. Subscribe to our newsletter! Follow us on Instagram @thelunaticsproject and on YouTube - Films About Lunatics.
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:And welcome to the Lindy ticks radio hour podcast. I'm Abby Brinker. I'm here with Alan Kadin. Hello? And today we are talking about necromancy. Yeah, we are. Yeah, it's a big one, a big one. This one took a lot of time for us to put together. Welcome to the neck, grow stravaganza. Niekro stravaganza. We're so excited. We have a lot to get into. We haven't done a two-part episode since the scariest scuffle. No, since spiritual ism we haven't done. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. I think the scariest scuffle was significantly longer in terms of length than spiritual wisdom. And I think necromancy might blow them all out of the water. To be honest, his outline is very long also to be noted that this has been on the list of topics to do for almost, since we started doing this podcast and here we finally are a year and a half later with the courage to tackle it, uh, not to drag it out, but I do have some non necromancy related things to talk about. Oh, here we go. Well, it's exciting. We have a new website. Oh yeah, let me do so Luna taste, project.com, which has always been our domain. But now thanks to the help of our friend, Nadia Rousa. It is got a full makeover it's gorgeous and you can access all of our episodes. You can submit stories through it. You can get updates from us. And you know, it kind of encompasses all of the projects within the lunatics project. So it's a great home base for us. Check it out. We would love for you all to take a look and I got to say, it looks great. It looks great. Yeah. So Nadia has tons of creative projects. So I'm going to talk about a few. So Nadia rasa is an artist and has so many cool creative projects going on. She is the one who designed the beautiful website, but we want to talk a little bit about some of her projects in case you want to get involved. I, you know what I do? Okay, here you go. So she has a magazine called one to a thousand, which is a collaborative community of creators. It's kind of similar to the lunatics magazine and that, uh, you know, people submit to it and they put together what you're saying. She's still our ideas. No, of course. No, of course not. But if you're interested in learning more or submitting work to be considered for their quarterly magazine, you can visit one to a thousand.co. And again, it's very like her. I don't even know how to describe her art, but everyone check it out. It's gorgeous. Cool. She also has, so Nadia rasa on Instagram is her art handle. She also has an Instagram handle for her makeup artistry and that's moon crest, co so check her out everywhere. Again, one to a thousand Nadia rasa and moon Cresco on Instagram. And you can find her beautiful work. All right. Okay. Now I also want to talk about this book that I read this week and it threw me for a loop. I remember. Yeah. I had a big emotional reaction.
Speaker 3:You saying things like this book threw me for a loop. I don't know if I don't know if that happened.
Speaker 2:So it's called my lovely wife written by Samantha Downing. And it is a little bit dark. I will say that it's about a husband, wife, killer team, serial killer team, but it's Katie, Katie, but it has the, it has some sort of like the vibe of a true crime, like book, you know, if you reading that, like this heaviness to it, but it's fiction it's fiction. And the, the twists throughout, which are, Oh, I'm not going to give them why I get this isn't this is not anything more than me suggesting this book to you because I really loved it. But it was hard. Like when I was reading it, I, I was very frightened. I live alone and I, it freaked me out. I got in my head and it's weird because you're sort of rooting, it's like a psychological mind, because you're kind of rooting for the killers because those are the people. Those are the stories that you're following, you know? So it's very weird even though you hate them. It's I dunno. Anyway, if you're into dark stuff, I suggest it. That's all I have to say. I don't want to give anything away, but if you do read it, please get in touch with me because I would love to talk about it with somebody. The other thing I want to talk about is a podcast called worst foot forward. Oh, it's, it's a very fun podcast that celebrates failure, which is of course, very relatable for every single human being speak for yourself. Um, they have so many episodes and I actually, this is not like a plug for their website, but I liked their website a lot because you can go and sort by genre. So, because they have so many episodes, if you want to like, hear about famous failures from film and TV or music, for example, it makes it easier to sort through what you're looking at. Cool. For example, an episode that I listened to was the world's worst romcom or the world's worst martial arts movie, which I think is when you would actually enjoy listening.
Speaker 3:W what was the world's worst martial arts?
Speaker 2:I don't want to give, I don't have the people to go and listen.
Speaker 3:No. Okay. I'll go with it.
Speaker 2:Okay, great. So anyway, worst foot forward podcast available anywhere you listen to podcasts, it's a very fun, especially if you're, you know, in these COVID wall times, if you need a little bit of a comedic boost, I think it's a good podcast for that. Cool. Yeah. Shall we dive into necromancy now? Okay. Today's sources. The crazy history of necromancy explained by grunge on YouTube necromancy, the dark art of summoning, the dead by mythology and fiction explained on YouTube[inaudible] of a FIRA by Atlas Obscura, an academic paper by Andre cap car, the origins of necromancy, or how we learn to speak to the dead medieval necromancy, the art of controlling demons on science, a.ca Wikipedia, and a great video series on North's religion by RF Harker, and the entire website of Norse mythology.org. Okay. So before necromancy, I feel like it's sort of a big word. So before we get into it, let's define it
Speaker 3:Is really important because there's a lot of people that confuse necromancy with Negro.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna lie. I was one of those at one point in my life.
Speaker 3:Well, we're about to debunk or sorry. We're about to let down
Speaker 2:A lot of people. If you came here for Negra, uh, I don't even want to let's pretend you didn't. Okay. Necromancy is the magical practice of talking to the dead, summoning, their spirits as visions, or the ability to raise bodies of the dead in shore, any magical interaction between the living and the dead. So it started more as something that meant the ability to commune with the afterlife. And then it evolved into this broader term of also being able to raise or control the dead,
Speaker 3:Which is definitely a big shift. What we think of as necromancy now is also very different from its histories. I keep wanting to say Hollywood is to blame, but that's not entirely true. No, there's not that many movies. I mean, there's, there's a lot, but there's, it's not nearly as ubiquitous in movies as it is in so many other forms of media. Totally. But that's what we think of today. When we think we think of, you know, like raising corpses and making them do your bidding.
Speaker 2:Right. And usually I think now we think of like a necromancer, like this witchy type person who's got glowing eyes and controls the dead and is also evil, which is also not the case. Yeah. We're going to talk a lot about that today. We first see the roots of the word necromancy in Latin and Greek neck romantic. It is a concrete word. Isn't it? There's a, there's actually like so many different early versions of this word that are pretty badass. It's a compound from the Greek words, net gross, which means the K net gross. Yeah. Any K R O S, which means dead body. And Manteia, which means divination by means of so divination by means of the dead. We first see it used by origin of Alexandria and early Christian scholar and the third century a D we also see early examples in the Odyssey when Odysseus visits the land of dead souls, which we're going to talk about pretty extensively later on that's in our Greek section. Necromancy is a very, I feel like because you have the outline today, you're going to be, you're going to be annoying. Okay. Necromancy is a very broad term. It means different things throughout history, into different cultures and legends. The thing to keep in mind that it boils down to magic that controls or connects to the dead in some way, for a few visuals to kick things off, you may remember Aragorn convincing the army of the dead to help in battle and their turn of the King necromancy.
Speaker 3:Wait, which I got to say what
Speaker 2:Don't even, don't insult the Lord of the rings. Allen.
Speaker 3:I would never, but there's very little ceremony in what he's doing.
Speaker 2:I would disagree that you okay. It's not a ritual, but it's a big, it's like his whole character arc.
Speaker 3:It's a, it's a big deal. It's a very big deal. But he just kinda like strolls up and says, yo guys,
Speaker 2:He has to. I mean, yeah, he doesn't like, like he doesn't do a ritual, but he that's when he claims his throne pretty much
Speaker 3:It is. And that the whole thing when he like grabs the guy's throat. Yeah. It's eight.
Speaker 2:I love them. So anytime you see someone summon a skeleton or a corpse, so, you know, even if it's corporeal, like when a Fred Sanderson who woke up the corpse of Billy butcher sin and Hocus Pocus, that is also necromancy, those are both summoning. The dead one is the form of spirits and one actually someone physical. So just to see, like, again, there's a billion different iterations of how this looks in film and TV.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Most in film and TV and video games and books. Most of it is getting the dead to do things for you. Yep.
Speaker 2:Like weaponizing them sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But in history, very different, very different. Shall we get into it? Here we go. So let's
Speaker 2:Start with the early origins, which makes sense. Necromancers are a staple and modern fantasy books and films, even blockbuster franchises, like the Lord of the rings, the Hobbit, the mummy, all dabble in this dark magic, early versions of the word and practice are not focused though on raising the dead. That's something that comes along later. The earliest versions of this practice relate more to people who communicate with the dead, almost more like mediums or spiritual shamans. Most of the time there is a dark magic connotation with necromancy, but it wasn't always thought of in that way. We see early examples of necromancy across ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt, and Babylon shamanism goes back long before Greek antiquity. Some argue that it can be traced back to the era of the stone age, even rituals and beliefs that we can communicate with the dead are some of the oldest belief systems in recorded history, even dating back to Jericho.
Speaker 3:Yeah. One's Jericho Jericho.
Speaker 2:And there's another settlement as well, which are very early human civilizations or talking between usually 10,000 and 5,000 BCE around 7,000 is probably a safe bet. These original practices of necromancy would include a priest entering a trance-like state. The shaman would be able to direct spirits to the afterlife or communicate with them in ancient Greece. This ritual was called Nikia. Like, yeah. And yeah. And the story that I wrote for the lunatics library episode that goes with necromancy is very much about this specific time period. Also similar to the ideals of spiritual wisdom that the dead have a greater insight into the universe and the living. It was thought that through necromancy shamans would be able to communicate with the dead and seek counsel from the why spirits who have passed. So we see this over and over again, like all throughout, you know, even when we get to the Greek history of this, that people are talking to the dead because they want help from them. They want guidance. And it's very similar to what we talked about in the spiritual ism episodes around people wanted to communicate with the dead because the dead have this kind of higher power of knowledge. They can see like more than you can see on this moral plane.
Speaker 3:So as you just keep describing just the early origins, this is so, so similar to the whole section we're going to get into on how necromancy was viewed, uh, through the lens of Norris religion.
Speaker 2:I'm so excited for that part.
Speaker 3:I mean, you're, you're getting a really good taste of it now where you're just going to have some like fun stories and faces to put to this.
Speaker 2:We love that though. It's not certain where the idea of necromancy originated. It is largely attributed to shamanism. It is unlikely that it has one source of truth, but more realistic that it has several different routes that have grown and evolved into our common understanding of this practice. Shamans were people who were chosen by the spirits themselves to facilitate connections between the living and the dead shamans were also responsible for handling the souls of those who have parted and making sure that they got to the afterlife safely shamanism in itself is a very broad term that refers to cultures across Africa, Australia, South, and central America and parts of Asia
Speaker 3:And most everywhere else.
Speaker 2:It seriously, in this ancient time, it was believed that if a person was sick, their soul was either taken back to the realm of the dead, or it could be stolen by an evil spirit, which is of course, very dastardly, very dastardly, and also similar to the idea of zombies. The, you know, the thing of your soul being separated from your body and could be stolen. The earliest documentation of necromancy is actually very fascinating to me. And this, this was a rabbit hole that I got that I got into here. Oh, here we go. Here we go. There are two known neolithic settlements with Bruin still intact, which blows my mind. Whoa, can you like neolithic settlements? I spent so much time looking at photos of these. Okay. Uh, what
Speaker 3:Rough time period are we talking about?
Speaker 2:Okay. So this is what we just referenced when we said Jericho Jericho is a Neo lithic site. So we're looking at between 5,000 and 10,000 BC, and that still exists. They had settlements. Yes. And I am going to tell you about them because they blow my mind. I thought everyone was nomadic then. So there's two main settlements that still exist. One is Jericho and the other is called Cattal Hayak, which is in modern day Turkey. And they contain some of the earliest evidence of magical necromancy practices. So, because the ruins are still intact, they give researchers a fascinating look at this early time.
Speaker 3:I mean, I don't know if you know this and it's very off topic, but why have the survivors,
Speaker 2:I don't know, actually, I will say the ruins that are in Turkey. There's let me tell you about that. Let me tell you all about that. Tell me about the ruins in Turkey. So there's 18 layers of them. So essentially when, you know, some things started to break, they would build on top of it. So you can see in the ex excavation photos that these go down and they built up and it kind of created this, uh, Hill type bump in the middle of this large plateau. So there's 18 layers and here's the fascinating thing you
Speaker 3:Can hang on. So we're on a plateau, right?
Speaker 2:We're in like the Plains. Yes. Okay. So it's flat, flat
Speaker 3:It's and they just may slowly build a little Hill,
Speaker 2:Like a flat Sandy area. Okay. And yeah, and, and the Hill is, is built up, I believe because of these layers, but the houses and they were houses were kind of created in this hunt, honeycomb like structure. Okay. Out of plaster. So there was no doors on the side. All the doors were on the roofs and everybody, the roof was thought of as like a common area. And so they would cook on the roof and, and like have gatherings. There's no temple space.
Speaker 3:How, how do they have doors on the roof and then build on top of their houses to make the next year?
Speaker 2:Well, when it crumbles, they build, they replace it. It's not like 18 stories, tall that as things started to destruct, they would just build on top of it, build on top of it, build on top of it. So when they wouldn't even sweep the rebel away. So when they're excavating, they just keeps kind of like going down and down. Got it. Well, yeah. It's and there's real, like recreation's of what these rooms would have looked like. And to me they're incredibly advanced and there's like ladder systems and yeah. And you just don't think of when you think of 10,000 years before, like the common era, right. So 12,000 years ago, you don't think about that being possible, you know, but it was, and this is my ignorance, but I didn't realize that people from that long ago, even built structures to live in,
Speaker 3:I thought everybody was fully nomadic it like a city
Speaker 2:Made out of plaster. It looks remarkably different from our, you know, obviously, but we're, markably similar.
Speaker 3:I mean, obviously there's other podcasts that are going to be far more thorough in this area. I just think it's so interesting that there's yeah. Any, any city at all, there's, they're not Hunter gatherers or if they are, they, they can't be, they have to have farming. You can't have a city without farming. Otherwise you have to keep moving where your prey goes.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I didn't read enough about their resources
Speaker 3:Actually. No, this makes sense. If they were able to develop such complicated structures and techniques, the only way they could have done that as they have the secret knowledge of the,
Speaker 2:Well, actually now that you say that I think that they were hunters. So let me tell you why we're talking about them. They are some of the earliest examples of death rituals and of death rituals, I guess, is the best way to say it. So these groups would often tie up a body or wrap it in a basket or some sort of, you know, covering after somebody died. Or they would simply kind of put the body outside of the city and let it decompose. And then they would take the bones though and bring them back into the house, need those bones. So, but they were used like assumed in, in sort of like a ritualistic way. So they were kept either under furniture in the house or buried in the earth, but they were kept in the home. So there are 10 skulls that have been recovered from these sites, which are covered in plaster. They have shells of fixed to the, where their eye sockets are and they are believed to be painted. But of course, that hasn't lasted over the years. And there are several theories about why this practice existed. One is that it was a way to honor the dead, right. Another is that it was used in connection to hunting. So sort of like a hunting, you know, ritual or a way to preserve the dead. However, there's also thought could be it, it could have been more of a magical practice, so to speak a connection between the living and the dead or a way to ward off spirits, but either way, like, regardless of all of that, this very complex system of dealing with human remains, sheds light on the importance of the dead and the earliest of human societies.
Speaker 3:Just like elephants, what do you mean elephants? Go to a certain place to die. And they have their little elephant graveyards. Oh right.
Speaker 2:Different species and different civilizations.
Speaker 3:It's, it's in our bones, it's in our bones and that's why you keep the bones.
Speaker 2:Should I keep your bones under the bed? Put some shells on your skull.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's pretty full of other bonds. I don't want to get mixed in with all your other bones.
Speaker 2:Fair enough. So we can't talk about, I think almost any topic without talking about ancient Greece. I mean, that's not true. Yeah. But it's, it's a big resource when it comes to,
Speaker 3:I guarantee you, the entire episode on the vampire is not going to have any mention of ancient Greece. Okay. That's not true. That's sorry. That's not true at all.
Speaker 2:We talked about this briefly, but the example of necromancy from the Odyssey is a great example of a more team version.
Speaker 3:Let's tell you about the Odyssey.
Speaker 2:I mean, to say before necromancy becomes a dark art, right? When it's more of a spiritual thing,
Speaker 3:Do you mean before Christians come? Yes,
Speaker 2:Exactly. The Odyssey by Homer is a recurring pinnacle text. When it comes to tracing the origins of many of the topics that we cover. Homer's Epic poem dates back to the eighth century BCE in the Odyssey, the character Searcy is incredibly powerful and she is shown to communicate and awaken the dead. So she does, when a disease crosses paths with her, she teaches him some of her spells and rituals, Searcy then directs a deceased to the underworld and tasks him with performing a NICU ritual himself, multiple times. The purpose of this is so that the spirits can give a deceased, valuable information about how to return home safely. Okay. So there's one particular ritual that she taught him that I would like to tell you about because it sounds very fun. Oh yeah. A deceased digs, a trench and fills it with mostly boozy offerings for the dead. He starts off by filling it with libations mixed with honey. Then he does a layer of libations mixed with sweet wine, another layer of libations mixed with water. And he tops it off with white meal and a promise to send the dead, a barren heifer and huge sacrificial Pyre. When he gets home next, he slaughters sheep and adds their blood to this ritual trench. And so now of course, hoards of dead spirits start to appear. And as a final step, the sheep are skinned and their flesh is burned in an effort to call upon Hades or Pluto and his wife per Stephanie.
Speaker 3:Now, um, I can't remember the specifics. So I'm just going to try to free ball. This one, free ball away. Here we go. So wa so he's trying to, uh, get the ghost of Tyree is all the dead are just like, they're chilling. They're not really paying any attention. And then he pours a button and they're all like, w that's that's some good blood, but he's got the really good blood also. Like, you know, I think they're yeah.
Speaker 2:Like how Bella has the good blood and toilet.
Speaker 3:No, no. It's from a sheep. Oh, okay. Just like Bella. Um, and I, is it the same sheep? Maybe he is. I don't remember if he has multiple sheep or it's like a really good sheep anyways. I know there's something really special about the blood. And so all these ghosts are showing up, including his mom.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a spoiler alert. That's how he finds out that she's dead. He actually didn't realize she was dead when her ghost appears, which is pretty sad. Yeah. Spoiler alert for spoiler alert.
Speaker 3:Yup. For a book for
Speaker 2:The eighth century BCE
Speaker 3:Regardless. So she shows up and she w she tries, she tries to drink the blood. And he's like, no, this is not for you mom. And like, it's, it's tough. It's tough for him because like, he wants to give his mom the blood, but she, he can't, it's not for her. It's her you're Tyree CEUs. Okay. Because the whole reason, like, he needs to talk to you. He has to get home, as you said, but he's only got so much, but, and if his mom drinks all the blood, then Tyrese is not gonna drink the blood. Anti-racist only talks to him while there's blood. So like, even when Tyrese he's finally shows up and he's like drinking the blood and like, you know, diseases like asking him like a bunch of questions and. Yeah. He's like, you know, he's showing me like, you know, slow your roll dude. Uh, you drink, as soon as you drink all this blood, you're gonna walk away. So, you know, he's even having like slow him down, you know? Cause the blood is what is necessary to make these people talk.
Speaker 2:There you go. Necromancy. One-on-one
Speaker 3:Actually, we're, we're definitely up to one Oh two.
Speaker 2:So will you read this passage for me, Allen, from the Odyssey,
Speaker 3:The Solum rights and Holy vows, we paid to all the Phantom nations of the dead then die. The sheep, a purple Torin flowed and all the caverns smoked with streaming blood then Lowe appeared along the dusty coasts, thin airy Shoals, a visionary ghosts, fair pensive youths and soften namerd maids and withered elders, hail and wrinkled shades gasoline with wounds, the forms of warriors, slain stalked with majestic port a Marshall train, these and a thousand more swarmed over the ground and all the dire assembly shrieked around astonished at the site. I stood a gassed and a cold fear ran shivering through my blood straight. I command the sacrifice to haste straight. The flight victims of the flames are cast and muttered vows and mystic song applied to gristly Pluto and his gloomy bride. That's the Odyssey book 11. That was very good, Alan. So quick shout out to my boy, Anton lesser, because he read this whole book out loud to make the audio book version, which is the best, uh, audio book recording of the entire Odyssey. It's so fun. He reads it with so much passion and you're just like, you're just rooting for Odysseus the whole time you're out. You're on the ship with him. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's a good call. It actually, cause maybe it's high time. I give this book another pass
Speaker 3:And I mean, that's the only reason why I read it was because, well, I wanted to read paradise lost and I couldn't do it because paradise lost is a slog to get through if you're actually reading it. And it was advised to me to try it an audio book and I found what was supposed to be the best version. And it was by Anton lesser. So just to put a face to this Anton lesser plays, uh, Coburn in game of Thrones. Who's Searcy's like evil scientist's wizard guy.
Speaker 2:I had the audio book in college when I took an entire class on paradise lost and had to read it in a huge tome
Speaker 3:Of a book. It's impossible. It's
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, it's very, it's a great book because it's so interesting and rock and roll, but it's dense.
Speaker 3:Let Anton lesser read it to you. And you're just going to be like, hell yeah. So yeah, he did that. He did Paris last. He did the Odyssey. He did the Elliot and he's done a ton of other classics.
Speaker 2:Cool. That's a great little suggestion. This is a great example of the type of necromancy we see in tons of Greek and Roman poems. There is no evil or dark connotation to the practice at this point in history and necromancy is not used to summon an individual, but rather reach the spirits of the underworld. Odysseus unleashes a host of souls from the great beyond with his ritual. And he does, of course he's after certain people, but those people don't just pop out individually, right? He's also using it to communicate with the dead, right? In order to get valuable insight and wisdom, he is not raising or controlling them to act as an army or to do his bidding.
Speaker 3:Although I bet he wished he could don't we all right? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Nakia rituals are represented in many different ways in these early writings. In some cases, they involve eating the bodies of the dead or drinking blood. Other cases, show it to be a little bit less brutal wearing the clothes of those who have passed as a way to trigger the connection. Her Auditas. His histories describes the Oracle of the dead, a much spookier version of the Oracle at Delphi. You'll often see the phrase neck romantic can come up as it means Oracle of the dead. So this is also Allen. These are what we're about to talk about are actual ruins that exist.
Speaker 3:Oh, Oh, Oh, this thing. Yeah. We talked about that.
Speaker 2:The neck romantic, one of our grant, or you FIRA is an ancient Greek temple used for necromancy. This specific temple was dedicated to Hades and Persephone Annie.
Speaker 3:So they will assign out say neck romantic Jeanette, Birmingham fee.
Speaker 2:Most Greek temples of the dead were associated with either Haiti's or[inaudible] the gods of the underworld. This is the same site where a dizziness went to enter the underworld. It sits near three of the five rivers associated with Hades. And just to clarify, like I said, yes, this is a location described in ancient Greek texts, but it's also a real site discovered by archeologists, the ruins have 11 foot thick walls and there's about 72 square feet of space within with levels below the earth. Those who believed thought that this temple located on the banks of the Akron river was the entrance to Haiti's. People would come to this site to talk to their dead ancestors.
Speaker 3:I just want to say, it's really interesting that not only has this site survived, but you can go there. Yeah. You can literally go to the door to Haiti's. Should it go? I mean, after COVID I, the thing is like they don't publicize that you can just like walk into the underworld from there, which obviously is a big coverup. Right.
Speaker 2:Okay. All right. Now I have a little, uh, Wikipedia quote for you ritual use of the neck, romantic and involved elaborate ceremonies wearing celebrants, seeking to speak to the dead would start by gathering in the ziggurat, like temple and consuming a meal of broad beans, pork, barley, bread, oysters, and a narcotic compound, which is something that comes up a lot that people would use hallucinogenics in these, um, in these rituals quite often,
Speaker 3:It was, um, it was actually just a syrup syrup,
Speaker 2:Scissor, scissor cough was caught. What is that? Cough syrup like 7up Following a cleansing ceremony. This is still quoting following a cleansing ceremony.
Speaker 3:Sorry. The scissor comment was
Speaker 2:Not part of the, not part of the quote. Yeah. Following a cleansing ceremony and the sacrifice of sheep. The faithful would descend through a series of meandering corridors, leaving offerings. As they pass through a number of iron Gates, the neck Romantica would pose a series of questions and chant prayers, and the celebrants would then witness the priest arise from the floor and begin to fly through the temple, through the use of theatrical cranes, winch end quote.
Speaker 3:Yeah. W the, the theatrical cranes part has not been proven, not been proven. No. So for all we know it was straight up magic. I don't know one interesting tidbit. So it was ziggurat shaped. So anyone who is unaware of a ziggurat, right. Just picture an Aztec pyramid. So unlike Egypt, which is a lot closer to Greece, you know, with all the very flat sides of their pyramid, it's just blocks in tears. And so you find these types of structures all over the world. It's like one of the earliest mega structures that humanity builds. Right. And almost always, they have some affiliation with the dead.
Speaker 2:Interesting that that kind of stuff just pops up everywhere and has this similar meaning to it. Like how, how broadly were people able to travel at that time? You know,
Speaker 3:I mean, it's, there's, there's three easy explanations. Yeah. One, it's just a very fundamental way to build a large structure. You use blocks, you make a really big base. The next layer is the same thing. Just slightly less blocks, you know? And then you just keep building up thing. Number two, these are all had something to do with the dead, whether this was sacrificing to the gods, whether this was NEC romantic rituals, maybe that this was, this knowledge was given to people through secrets of the dead. Yeah. Third aliens.
Speaker 2:Well, there's a funny any you're on there with that. There's a funny meme on Instagram because you know, there's all these believers who, I shouldn't say it's on Instagram, it's everywhere. It's on the internet. There's all these people who think like, Oh, ancient aliens built the pyramids and stuff. And the meme is like, just because white people couldn't do it doesn't mean it was aliens. I mean, yeah. Yeah, totally. It's funny. But I'm yeah, I've through this podcast, I've become very interested in this sort of very old history, you know, early civilizations and the structures.
Speaker 3:Uh, I mean, ziggurats specifically, they're just so cool. And they're so sturdy. That's why they're still around.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Should we go do a little ziggurat tour
Speaker 3:Globe? I mean, yeah. You can literally pick any country
Speaker 2:Except the United States.
Speaker 3:There's a grass in the United States where,
Speaker 2:From what modern times,
Speaker 3:Um, I'm going to just challenge that I'm not going to provide any proof. Okay. I'm just going to challenge it.
Speaker 2:All right. Challenge accepted. Your father would say, so this site in Greece was discovered by archeologists in the 1950s and believed to be the same temple described by her Auditas and Homer and their works. This is contested. However, because the geographical locations do not match.
Speaker 3:This was before GPS
Speaker 2:Before GPS, long before. So in the eighth century, BC necromancy and described by Homer, right? We get that in the fifth century, we have the neck romantic and described by her Auditas late fourth century BC. The site was actually built and then 167 BC site burned down by the Romans. The site was built based on the older town.
Speaker 3:Interesting. So they took the survey like the surviving Greek texts and built the site. So w the one that we have today was consistent after the books are written, the books are written. They're not books like their polo poems were written. Yeah. These are books. They're Epic poems. They're big. They're big.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We also see many examples in Roman and Greek texts of Calabasas. This is when usually the main character of a story is sent to the underworld for a specific reason on a quest, which often includes interaction with the dead. So for example, Orpheus here comes RPS.
Speaker 3:Your gums are fused. So
Speaker 2:Nacra before Orpheus, necromancy can also be found in the Bible within the old Testament. But yeah,
Speaker 3:And the very start of the new Testament,
Speaker 2:First Samuel chapter 28, verse three, through 25, this is a story of a medium named the witch of end, or the witch of Endora is a consultant of King Saul. The first King of Israel, Saul is a bit of a hypocrite, however, because he outlawed necromancy and Israel, but then he asks the, which of indoor to use her powers to tell him the outcome of an upcoming battle. What a little get, get the why spirits of the dead revealed that solid his sons would perish in the battle. So bad news for Saul and that grunge mini documentary on YouTube highlights an important evolution within this story. So originally the witch of Endor is nameless and called in most versions, the necromancer or our PI on ISTA or sorceress, right? It isn't until the 15th century that she becomes the focus of the story. And the next century she is given the name, which a vendor, all of that comes a lot later.
Speaker 3:It's an end or the planet with all the walks. Yes, it is. What's, what's the relation.
Speaker 2:She's the witch of the walks. Wow. Another early example. This one from Greek mythology is the tale of Orpheus. Here we go. Or if he went into the underworld in order to rescue his love, as the story goes, Orpheus lost his head and died. But even in death, his head was used quite often. It still spoke and would be used to secure prophecies. This is an early example of what is now called skull necromancy, the practice of using a head or skull of someone who has died to learn information.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So basically carrying a head around to get done is all over mythology from everybody just like Medusa. They took the head and they started using it for their own nefarious purposes. Not even a Farias,
Speaker 2:Just, just that. It's almost like a Google home to ask it questions and get answers.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, which is a key thing of like, once you die, you get to know all the secrets and it's just you, but you need magic to make them talk. Right. Isn't Orpheus the guy that like looked back over his shoulder and like at the very last second. And that's why he couldn't rescue the woman he loved
Speaker 2:Sounds about right. Sounds like him.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So we were like, she was the, the instruct he had like trick somebody. Oh yeah. He did trick somebody by playing a song and, Oh, they, they just a challenged him to play a song. And it's like, unless it's like the best song ever, then you can't, you can't get, get your
Speaker 2:Gal like tenacious D exactly.
Speaker 3:That's what th the, the, it was actually based on tenacious D and he's like, yeah, I got you. I got this. And he plays a song and it's the greatest song in the world. Uh, but, but, but that he'd be, they don't th th there was a lot them,
Speaker 2:No, he it up. He doesn't, he plays a song is great, but it's not the best song in the world. It is. Everyone loves it. Okay. And they're like, fine.
Speaker 3:I'll, I'll, you've, you've moved my wife to tears. So it says, uh, you know, Haiti's talking about percent funny, right? Yeah. Wait, is it per 70? Maybe it's per Stephanie. Yeah. But per Stephanie, I have my Greek timelines, all kerfuffle kerfuffle. Um, anyways, so she's like walking. He's like, okay. Yeah, you can bring her out of Haiti's now that's fine. And so there, she, but you can't look at her, you just have to keep, uh, keep walking the whole time. Right. And you can't look at her until she's out of you until she's out of Hades. Yep. And so walking, walking, and he was just playing was playing. Right. Yeah. And everything's going great. And towards the end, he gets a little excited. Cause he can see the, the exit. It's a little excited. So he gets into a little bit of, of a hustle or Jostle. Yeah. And so he gets a little excited. And so, but at that point, because she had to walk, there was no running a lot of roles. Yeah, yeah. A lot of it, because that was the thing that they knew they were going to, they're going to trip him up somehow. And because he ran a little bit and she was a little stuck walking, he gets ahead of her to ahead of her. And so he thinks like, Oh, I've given it so much time. Now, now that I'm out of Hades, I can look back and he looks back a breath too, too early. And she was just like a tow away from fully being out
Speaker 2:Heartbreaking. But he deserved it. Honestly, he had rules to follow
Speaker 3:And yeah. And he just it up. Cause he's a
Speaker 2:Because he's a man Spartan King Cleo minis was believed to have the head of his friend Ocho NEIdeas in a jar full of honey. He would bring it out to talk through big decisions. Skulls needed to be prepared in a specific way in order to allow them to be used as post dead profits.
Speaker 3:I was going to ask because like, so can you give us the quick DIY? No.
Speaker 2:I'm just telling you that they need to be prepared in a specific way, but I'm not going to tell you how, because that's irresponsible storytelling. I don't want anybody who listens to this podcast to capitating somebody and trying to prepare their skull to be
Speaker 3:Right. But if they're already to out, it's just going to go to waste then. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Bring it to the fertilization center in Oregon, grow some Venus fly traps in it.
Speaker 3:All right.
Speaker 2:All right. Shall we talk about Norse mythology?
Speaker 3:I mean, I, I guess so. Yeah. As, yeah. As long as you're just gonna, you know, keep us hanging about how to make cool profit heads. I am. Okay.
Speaker 2:So let's talk about Norse mythology and necromancy.
Speaker 3:Okay. So, um, I actually prepared this, this portion. Yup. Yeah. I'm excited to hear it. So similar to Greek mythology, the, uh, after world of the land of the dead, if you will, is a physically reachable spot. Got it. Um,
Speaker 2:So you can walk into it. You can sorta,
Speaker 3:Okay. The living can go there. Okay. The dead
Speaker 2:Cannot leave, but there are CoPortal.
Speaker 3:Yes. Sorta it's. So the thing is there's places where the, there there's still definitely like, sort of like different places, but there's places where the realms overlap. Oh, interesting. So whether that's like a tomb or a burial mound or something. Yeah. There's a lot of necromancy that took place in the North religion involved the overlap of in these physical spaces. Cool. I like that, uh, the, the whole idea of the dead existing on a complete, in a completely different like worldly plane doesn't arrive until Christianity as usual. Well speaking specifically about Scandinavia, right? Yep. So you were speaking earlier about shamanism. Yes. So in the Norse religion, the best way to describe shamanism most equivalent term is Seder. Okay. And so that's just like the mystical practice of not necessarily communing with the dead cause like that, you know, necromancy, necromancy is a subset of Seder.
Speaker 2:Got it. Okay. So your umbrella term Seder is just like magic. Okay, cool.
Speaker 3:Here is just a quick, uh, excerpt from Norse mythology.org. That does a pretty good, uh, explanation of Seder. There were Seder rituals for divination and clairvoyance for seeking out the hidden, both in the secrets of the mind and in physical locations for healing, the sick for bringing good luck for controlling the weather for calling game animals and fish, importantly, it could be used for the opposite of these things to curse an individual or an enterprise to blight the land in market Barron, to introduce illness, to tell false futures and thus to set their recipients on a road to disaster, to injure maim and kill in domestic disputes and especially in,
Speaker 2:Hm. Okay. So it's just like magic powers, right? It's a pretty big term, broad term. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But again, you know, necromancy, which is part of this and it wasn't like if you're a necromancer necromancer, wasn't a term. It's just, if you practiced Seder,
Speaker 2:Right. You could have the power to be a necromancer, so to speak well, yeah. You have the powers of necromancy, but you weren't specialized. No. Got it.
Speaker 3:It's just like, yeah. You're just fricking wizard. You can do all sorts of
Speaker 2:The metric, right? Yeah. Yeah. You're a freaking wizard.
Speaker 3:And also please forgive my, um, North's pronunciations and I'm gonna, I'm gonna try my best
Speaker 2:And forgive all of my pronunciations and every episode,
Speaker 3:Add the accent to a few things. Cause it's, it's important because, so the practices of the practitioners of Seder were called vulva. Okay. Which if you just Americanize, it is,
Speaker 2:Yeah. I got it.
Speaker 3:Just to exemplify that, like these weren't like shunned people. It was almost like an occupation. Got it. So the vulva, uh, and here's a quick quote, wandered from town to town and farm to farm performing commission, acts of magic in exchange for room board and often other forms of compensation.
Speaker 2:Well, I liked the idea of commission acts of magic. Yeah. It's
Speaker 3:Just, you know, it's not like the witch in the
Speaker 2:Woods, right. It's like, Hey, I need you to help me do this thing. I'm going to pay you to do it. Right. I
Speaker 3:Need, I need the secrets of the dead stat.
Speaker 2:It's like modern day witchcraft. No, Hey, read my tarot cards. Hey, read my astrology chart. Here's 50 bucks
Speaker 3:Curse the army curse
Speaker 2:Curse of the army. Go curse the army. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, they're not inherently evil.
Speaker 3:They were both respected and feared. They're just practitioners of magic that were revered as much as the Oracles of other cultures would
Speaker 2:Be where they feared because they were powerful.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean that just again, picture it as like a sourcer. Yeah. Like you don't want to off a sorcerer because they can put a curse on your home and then you're screwed. Yeah. But simultaneously magic was just like a part of everyday life. Right. So you can't see like, Oh, it's bad.
Speaker 2:Right. You're seeking their help.
Speaker 3:The interesting thing though, is that the vast majority of these practitioners, these vulva were women. Cool. Hell yeah. There's, there's a word in Norse. That is, it just describes on Manliness. Uh, it's a R G R
Speaker 2:Scrubs on Manliness or like, yes. That's the not manly. Okay. It's not masculine. Yes. Okay.
Speaker 3:The most it's elected to call someone in Augur is a huge taunt. Right. And it, but the most interesting thing is one of the biggest Volvo practitioners of Seder in general, um, was Odin himself. So, you know, King of the gods. Right. And he is doing something that is considered throughout the culture as being unmanly. Okay. So speaking about Odin and Seder and all these things, yes. Seder was considered ardor, so not manly, right? Yep. I'm with you. Okay. And so like if you call someone[inaudible], it's a very serious time and Odin got teased by the, of the gods about this. Got it. You know, because
Speaker 2:They weren't as progressive as we are now,
Speaker 3:Not a hundred percent. So now let's just speak a little bit about him. So first and foremost, he is a practitioner of skull necromancy. Oh, hell yeah. He carries around me mirrors, severed head who's Mamiya. So Lumir was this guy that used to guard this well that had the wealth of knowledge, right? Yep. And so Ramirez, uh, famous, uh, for his own knowledge because obviously he's, he's drank from his own well, you know, so he's, he's very wise. So eventually once he's killed, uh, and I, I forgot how he died, but, um, it, it, it is, it's actually a really cool story, but I can't remember it well fair another day. Yep. Um, and are on our North mythology, deep dive. Yes. After he is decapitated. Yes. Uh, Odin takes his, the severed head uses his, his knowledge of runes. Sure. Which is very important when dealing with necromancy and making the dead speak. And then, so he uses his knowledge of runes and then he dunks the head into the, now the pool, uh, the well of knowledge. And then after that, Mir basically comes back to life, but just as head. Yep. And so he then carries his head around, like, you know, wherever he goes, like a pet sorta, I mean, yeah. It's, uh, it's it hits a pet like a parent. Yeah. And he can ask him all sorts of things because Mumia was very wise because he had the well, but now that he's dead, he has a very interesting type.
Speaker 2:Let me ask you a question though. What does it, isn't my mirror like at Odin for killing him. Odin didn't kill him. Oh. He just obtained his head and brought him back to life. Got it. It's a pretty good arrangement. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 3:North pathology, once you are dead, you get knowledge of all past events. Interesting. So, you know, obviously you can remember your own past, but you get to tap into like the universal collective memory. So you get to, you have the knowledge of all things that aren't necessary necessarily just your own history. Wow. So, you know, Amir gets as well. So he's got all sorts of knowledge about all sorts of stuff. But now that he's dead, he gets, he gets the double dip because he has knowledge of all past events as well. Cool.
Speaker 2:So he's very wise. Yeah. That's a very handy head to have. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. He, he used ruins to get the head animate along with the well, um, and just a quick story about how he got knowledge of ruins. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Really, really bad. Um, I mean, you've, you've read American gods. Oh yes. Of course.
Speaker 3:And shadow basically does the same ritual that Odin did. Cool. And it's really cool. He hangs himself for nine days. He sacrifices himself to himself. There's a couple layers on this one, but by doing that, he is eight. So by going through this crazy physical and mental ordeal and he literally, you know, dies and comes back because he's a mortal and there's a, there's a, you know, there's, there's a lot going on. He gets now he gets this secret knowledge of rooms. Now you can just print it out from Google, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I got it. I have the knowledge of runes. Okay. Well, I'll read your rooms right now. And that's really impressive.
Speaker 3:So now that he has his, his knowledge of ruins, he's got his, his severed head. Uh, he does all sorts of other stuff involving necromancy. So one cool bit is the, the tail of Boulder and what happens to him. So, uh, one day Odin is having like spooky dreams about Boulder, right. And Boulder is like the golden child. Yeah. Everybody loves him. He literally brings sunshine to everyone's life. Not literally, that's, that's a different guy, but uh, he lights up the room and everyone loves him. And so when Baldor is supposed to, when he's getting prophecies of Baldors demise, he's like, Oh, we gotta nip this one in the bud. So what naturally, uh, he goes to hell. Yeah. Um, yep. And well, the place, not the woman it's it's layers because he's not there to see her. He finds a dead Sirus, a sear, but a female Cirrus. Yep. So in Cirrus is, are big practitioners of, of Seder. Right. And so he finds a dead one. He then uses what's called Val[inaudible]. Okay. Which is corpse spells. And he forces her to speak about Boulder's death. Got it. So it's, you know, it's, it's kinda cool. Cause you got Odin basically. You know, he got teased by other gods being called, you know, Outrigger. Um, so he's basically being called girly, but this is a guy that like wields Corp spells hell yeah. You know, Corp spills are girly. Gender, gender is a spectrum. That's kids cannon. Yeah. I know. Yeah. I know. That's very cool. I like corporate spells. Yup. So, okay. Enough about it. I mean, he, he, he pops up in just about every myth. He's one of the top two practitioners of Seder as far as when it comes to like the Pantheon, the second one being hell yeah. Love RIAA. So Freya. She has a cool little, little myth about her and her practicing Freya is a goddess by the way, a Norse goddess. Yes. Just want people to know. Gotcha. Basically Freya is, is stupid. This guy, right? Uh, she's stupid. This guy, this guy, uh he's human. What do you mean? She's stupid. Stupid. What does that mean? She's she's having relations stupid, stupid. Okay. With, with this guy. Okay. Um, and, but you know, she's, she's on the Pantheon, she's a goddess of very high renown. She can't just be stupid, anybody. So she, she wants to find out this guy's full lineage to make sure that he's worthy. Okay. So she's trying to get this knowledge, right? Yes. And so she awakens this slain giant and the, I forget what the exact phrasing is, but they keep using the terminology along the lines of their tongue was silenced by death. It's like, it's like locked by death. So, um, and the idea is that when you die, there's like a silencing rune. Um, that makes it so you can't speak and you have to like adjust the room, uh, in order to make them speak. Right. So of ruins is
Speaker 2:Very important for necromancy incredibly. I see.
Speaker 3:And so she awakens this giant and the giant doesn't want to speak. They never want to speak. And, but she forces him through, you know, magic carpet, spouse. And then this lane giant gives the whole lineage of the, of the person. And it's like, okay, the person's good to go. Cool. The giant new this, because once again, entering the realm of the dead, you have knowledge of everything past, right. So there, those are the two main, uh, characters, if you will. But one cool thing from North mythology is also the dragger. Okay. So does that sound familiar to you? No. Okay. Um, so drug testing, well, no drugs are the Norse undead. Okay. And they are all over Skype.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay. Gotcha. So like whenever I got stuck on the spider, you got stuck
Speaker 3:The spider. So whenever you go into any tomb, the dogs are there.
Speaker 2:I don't, Oh, I died at that point. They're like zombies. Yeah. I remember now.
Speaker 3:And they're like zombies, they're mindless. That's only in the game. In the, in the myths. They are very much scent. You got an interesting, uh, derog is created when the Varde, which is the, basically like the soul is trapped inside the body. Uh, which is very much like a dead
Speaker 2:Interesting, just like the zombie stuff
Speaker 3:And they're bound to their tombs and they cannot leave.
Speaker 2:Got it. So it's just like Skyrim. Yep. Like if you go in, they can't follow you out. Yep. So like th that's again, that's cannon. Now I want to play Skyrim again.
Speaker 3:Also be created when a Cirrus sings, the song of the dead called the Varde Loker the spirit then inhabits its corpse in order to speak and gives the Cirrus secret knowledge. And if there's no corpse available, the Varde can instead possess the Cirrus, uh, very much like a contemporary medium. And again, this would have to be done in a tomb or a burial mound, because those are the only areas that overlap between the land of the living in the land of the dead cool account of[inaudible] are from, uh, I think it's pronounced,
Speaker 2:Heard of Otter saga. Okay.
Speaker 3:And it's kind of bad-ass so you have[inaudible] and she's the daughter of a dead King. Okay. And she goes to this haunted Island where her, her dead King dad is buried. Okay. I love it. She goes down to the crypt in summons. She summoned[inaudible], uh, since they are the guardians of the cursed sword.
Speaker 2:Okay. I like a curse sword too.
Speaker 3:Tearfund is actually a very, very bad, so it can cut through anything. It never grows doll. Uh,
Speaker 2:It's like the Zelda sword that I can't find the master sword in Zelda
Speaker 3:First. And the reason behind the curse is like really awesome. And actually the, the, the, the whole a hundred fire saga was a big inspiration for Lord of the rings. Oh, cool. It's really cool. Because all the back and forth, the reason why it gets cursed is very complicated, but it's really cool. The, the curse part is that anytime it's, it's drawn from it's scabbard, it has to kill someone. Uh, and if like you don't kill someone of your own volition, the sword drives you mad and you go into like a whole buzzer rage until the sort of satisfied with,
Speaker 2:And you kill yourself. Oh, I see. So it forces your hand. It forces you mad. I thought it was going to force you to kill yourself, but it just forces you to become murderous.
Speaker 3:Uh, part of the curse is that it does force you to kill yourself, but only if you're this
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Curse sword and it comes back and it comes all through history. Okay. Anyways, herbivore summons, the dragger, which is the dead King and his sentinels, because again, they're supposed to be guarding the sword and she demands the sword as her inheritance. She then forces them to retrieve the sword from its hiding place, which is deep within the earth encased within solid rock.
Speaker 2:Of course. Easy, easy peasy. Yeah. So,
Speaker 3:You know, in this case, this is one of the few times we've encountered so far where you're not just trying to get knowledge from the dead. This is the type of necromancy when you're actually summoning an undead being and forcing them to do something. Right. Yep. And in this case, it's pulling a sword out of this.
Speaker 2:That's cool. Just like Excalibur, just like, except this cursed.
Speaker 3:So the only other thing that I will mention, because it sounds very similar to some other things that you already brought up are the[inaudible], which are the night centers. Oh. And these, these guys are actually gals. Basically they go into the wilds or the graveyards and sit and go into a type of trance. And in that trance, the dead would then speak, uh, speak to you. Um, and they would tell you secrets.
Speaker 2:I actually started reading a wire novel. I believe it's the Raven cycle that starts with like this. And I didn't get that far. Cause I got distracted by something I had to read for the podcast. But it had the same intro is I never knew everything is connected to mythology at the end of the day. You bet. I love that. Thank you for sharing all that Norse mythology. That was very raw.
Speaker 3:That was just scraping the surface because we were only pertaining to Nicola,
Speaker 2:Right? Yeah. It's wild. Well, you guys, I think again, we told you this was going to be a big one, a long one. This is part one. And we're going to come back next week for part two. Oh yeah. Which is going to have more information about the middle East, about medieval times, about how the church comes and deals with necromancy and ruins, everything ruins, everything. It used to be so cool. Lots of hypocrisy coming next week. Content warning. Well, hang on. Yes,
Speaker 3:It's still cool. It's cool.[inaudible] I don't think we would think necromancy is nearly as cool. If the church hadn't like made it like forbidden. It's
Speaker 2:True. We are attracted to what we can't have
Speaker 3:Or shouldn't have
Speaker 2:Exactly. Thank you guys so much for listening. You can follow us at the lunatics project on Instagram. If you have stories that you want to submit to the show, you can email films about lunatics@gmail.com or go to lunatics, project.com/submit and submit and submit them there until next time. Bye. Bye.