Lunatics Radio Hour
The history of horror and the horror of history.
Lunatics Radio Hour
Episode 149 - The Science Behind Alien Phenomena: Part 1
Abby and Alan sit down with the mysterious Andy, to discuss modern day theories around alien encounters, UFOs, UAP and interdimensional beings.
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Hello everyone, before we get into the episode today, I just wanted to tell you a little bit about what this episode is. So we sat down with our friend Andy, who is a very, very, very smart human, and talked about the science behind a lot of the alien theories that are out there. So this episode delves into quantum mechanics at a very basic level. It delves into different possibilities and theories around what aliens and extraterrestrials or ultra-terrestrials or UAP and UFOs could actually be. And then it also talks a bit about modern day conspiracy theories and politics and different things like that. And the only reason I'm coming on here beforehand to preface is because I personally think there's a very thin line between questioning the world around us, which I think is incredibly important, and then also believing full heartedly in a conspiracy theory that's not really founded in anything factual. And Andy makes a very profound point one of many profound points that he makes during this interview about how a lot of these theories and things that we're going to talk about and explore are things that are believed by people that we might deem to be problematic in this space, and so we have to also question these theories and question the different possibilities while we are examining the world around us, and really the point of this series, beyond talking about aliens, which is one of my favorite things to do, is that this is really a terrible time in the world, and we can all agree on that, and there's a lot of powers that be that are horrible, and the more that we can question authority on that and there's a lot of powers that be that are horrible and the more that we can question authority or question what we are told to believe as authority, I think is the better. But I also think with that comes the caveat of doing really solid research, knowing that with the tools that we have in front of us, we'll probably not crack all of these things on our own, and so it's really what I think the conversation boils down to is there's a lot of power in the exercise of questioning and theorizing and discussing these things with people, while also balanced with research and scientific understanding and just knowing that these things may remain unknown forever.
Speaker 1:We also decided to break this conversation up into two parts because it's so interesting and fascinating and a lot of it is a bit over my head, so this way you'll have a little bit of time between part one and part two to kind of mull things over or even research a little bit if you're interested, and then we'll come back with part two. Anyway, I hope you enjoy this very fascinating conversation with one of the smartest people that I know. Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the lunatics radio hour podcast. I am abby brank and today I am sitting here with my friend Andy.
Speaker 2:Hello.
Speaker 1:Hi Andy, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:I have been trying to get Andy on this podcast for actually over a year now. We're very excited that you're here.
Speaker 2:I'm very excited to be here.
Speaker 1:So Andy is my friend, who is my go-to expert when it comes to understanding UFOs, aliens theories, different theories and scientific methods for us to take in all the different evidence and spit out something that makes sense. So today is a new kind of episode. We're just going to have a very casual conversation and Andy is going to try to help me understand, and, in turn, all of you understand, the vast and sprawling and crazy worlds of UFOs, because it seems like now is the time.
Speaker 2:Agreed.
Speaker 1:Okay. So, andy, I'm just going to ask you a few questions to get into it a little bit. How did you first like? Were you always really into UFOs?
Speaker 2:I wasn't and I don't think I had any sort of valence one way or the other. So, in other words, I didn't think about it. I did not think about it. If I was, for example, in a supermarket and I saw some reference to aliens on the cover of a tabloid, I'd acknowledge it, but my feelings toward it would be pretty neutral. So, yeah, I wasn't a UFO guy. Certainly it just wasn't in my headspace at all.
Speaker 2:Until Until 2017, when an article came out in the New York Times describing a secret program, secret department at the Pentagon that was in charge of researching UFOs. This program was called AATIP Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, run by a guy named Lou Elizondo or Luis Elizondo. And there it was. It was 2017. Trump had just been elected. I was still feeling the Obama vibe, so the New York Times still meant something to me and I thought, wow, the New York Times is saying that UFOs are real and they have a bunch of folks who are pretty high up on the record saying that this is a case. Why is nobody talking about this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that led you where it's interesting, because it led me to think about what would my description of reality be if such a thing were real? It forced me to reconsider what I thought reality was and in a sense, it was spiritual.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, that's sort of how I feel about this stuff too, and I also just think it's much more fun to choose to live in a world where this kind of stuff exists.
Speaker 2:Yeah, why not? Well, yeah, I mean just to consider that there are more stars in the universe than grains of sand on earth, and each star has planets, just like our star does. I believe that folks don't let themselves think about how vast the universe is because they don't want to think about the implications that this was an invitation to do so yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1:I love that. Wow, what a poignant way to start us off. Thank you, let's see where it goes now. Huh, okay, so you start to get interested in ufos and I think we all I think, to be totally honest, a lot of at that point, right, a lot of us who are always maybe interested and intrigued. And we've read about some of the big Betty and Barney Hill, right, like, who are watch the X-Files. But suddenly it became like, oh shit, it's no longer a personal choice whether or not you believe in this stuff, like there's powers that be that that we trust you know, for better or worse, that are confirming this, that we trust you know, for better or worse, that are confirming this. So that's where you started. Where you've ended from. My observation is so deeply in this that a lot of the time we talk about it, I can't even follow what you're saying. So how did we, how did you like what was kind of like the gateway thing that kept intriguing you enough to become so knowledgeable about this whole thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and so okay. So the other thing that came out after the New York Times article did was, you know, slides from the kinds of presentations that ATIP would do. And there was this famous slide nine, and this was, by the way, you know, not some random thing on Reddit. This was vouched for by the Pentagon itself. This is, and to take a step back, generally, I, you know, I didn't consider certainly not at the time, and I don't think now either anything that didn't have some stamp of approval from a reputable source, because I didn't, certainly didn't want to fall down the rabbit hole. So slide nine comes out and it talks about the five observables. So whenever a, what they then refer to as UAP unidentified aerial phenomenon, phenomena as opposed to UFOs. Five observables, so the five kinds of things that these things did, and it would include things such as instant acceleration, transmedium travel, no source of propulsion or control surfaces, and so the next step was understanding the physics that would allow for such a thing to be possible.
Speaker 1:Right, and this part is, through no fault of your own, the part that's harder for me to understand because I'm just not a science-y person, but I think it is probably at the core of a lot of these definitions, right.
Speaker 2:Right, absolutely. You know there are different ways of describing the physics of what is going on, and so, for example, that experiencers or folks who come into close proximity to a UAP will report like loss of time or their time is running on a different clock from somebody else's clock, outside a certain frame of reference.
Speaker 1:Can we talk about that? Because to me that's one of the more intriguing parts of ufos and aliens and people who have these shared experiences yeah and I think the time thing is a great example to help illustrate kind of what you're talking about. Right, so like hypothetically, if I am somebody that had a an encounter experience and I just like an episode of the x-files, right like I report a loss of time, yeah what's what's actually the mechanic like? What's the belief that? What's doing that to me?
Speaker 2:right, and so that has to do with special relativity. Okay, so essentially we all inhabit a frame of reference, the. The classic example is if you're standing outside and you're watching a train go by and in the train is somebody throwing a ball, that ball is going the speed of the train plus the speed of the ball in the train, but within the train the ball is only going as fast as the ball. And so the point is that how you experience time has to do with your frame of reference, because we're all moving at different speeds. But the thing that has a constant speed is light. So if you think about a clock where you can calculate a second by having, let's say, like an electron or a particle go from one end to the other, if that clock is moving, then, if you think about it, it takes longer for that light to get to the other end, because the other end is sort of moving moving, you know, at that speed away from any point in time. So the clock is going to tick more slowly the faster that you're going.
Speaker 1:So if the clock is physically moving, the clock will tick more slowly.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right. So anything that's moving will experience time more slowly, because the speed of light is the same in all frames of reference, but not everything else is so for the time that it takes for a second to calculate, it's going to be different depending on your frame of reference and how fast you're moving compared to something else helpful examples.
Speaker 1:I understand okay, so so and sorry. One more question on the encounter piece yeah do people and do you believe that if there's an encounter and time is moving slowly, yeah it is because that person who has the experience is being moved to another place, or because just being near this being changes time?
Speaker 2:well, back to the observables yeah, yeah essentially they're observing instant acceleration, and so they bring in physicists and they say, okay, what would be some uh possibilities here in terms of the physics that would be needed to achieve this and the consensus.
Speaker 2:And, by the way, like I don't believe that this is proved necessarily, and I think, like the, the more reputable people will say you know, this is our hypothesis, right? So it's that this these crafts can exert a tremendous amount of energy, like multiples of our sun or something to the effect that they have a way of tapping into what's called the vacuum energy. So like, at extremely small scales, what seems like empty space is actually packed with a lot of energy, with a lot of energy. So these crafts can tap into this vacuum energy and essentially create so much energy that it bends the fabric of space-time by creating extreme gravity, and so they basically are anti-gravity. They have ways of controlling their gravitational field, and so if you draw an experiencer into your gravitational field, then that person is technically moving at that the clock in that gravitational field, which is requiring the the experiencer to be traveling more quickly than someone outside the gravitational field because it's it's bending space-time such that he's falling right right, even if he's not from his own perspective.
Speaker 2:He's falling, which creates a differential in speed which causes that person's clock to run more slowly fascinating.
Speaker 1:Wow okay, I never understood all that at all cool right, yeah, it is super interesting, it is yeah, it is okay.
Speaker 1:So where are you now? Like what? Yeah, I know there's like there's miles of theories around tall greys and this and that and right and so many different things. Yeah, but tell us you know at a high level, like, where are you with your belief of this and what do you think is like valid and true and proven? And what do you think is like valid and true and proven and what do you think is just your theory, you know?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's a lot of fun to speculate, certainly the the traditional, uh idea of let's call it a not necessarily extraterrestrial, by the way. So let's call it like a non-human intelligence. And I say not necessarily extraterrestrial because maybe they're not coming from outer space, maybe they're coming from inner space what's inner space? Well, essentially like.
Speaker 2:We experience reality in four dimensions yeah okay, but, you know, setting aside the controversy around string theory, in order for string theory to have the not necessarily predictive power, but let's say the uh, the power to reduce to different formulas that you found elsewhere in the history of physics, for all that math to work, you have to assume that there are 10 dimensions, and so it's potentially that we, as physical human beings, only experience four out of maybe 10 or 11 dimensions, and so they might be coming from one of those dimensions, whatever that means, and we could talk more about that. So that's actually like one way to think about, or rather one way that I've been thinking about. This stuff is like okay, well, if these are interdimensional, yeah, well, okay, there are legitimate physics that, uh, extremely smart people dedicate their lives to, and that physics says that maybe there are 10 dimensions yeah and so what would that mean?
Speaker 2:because if we exist at four dimensions, then what exists at five dimensions, at six dimensions, at seven dimensions? So that's how I started thinking about it and that immediately brought me to, initially, religion.
Speaker 1:Okay, I have.
Speaker 1:this is fascinating because a Alan is a major skeptic, right One of the only times that I have ever broken through with him is during our episode on the moth man, because everyone believes, or the people who really study it believe, that the mothman is an interdimensional being, right, and alan understood and was on board for that. Uh-huh. And so this is immediately what's coming to mind for me, right, this idea of like interdimensionality and my favorite quote from you know, everything with the mothman is, and something that I think, how I think of the paranormal in general, and all of this that you can't explain physics to a cockroach and with all of this, we are the cockroach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And it's fun to hypothesize, but it's so beyond what we could even comprehend.
Speaker 2:Right, well, yeah, check this out. I mean like here's. So like, in thinking about this, it led me to insights such as the following.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:We experience reality because we exist at a certain scale. For example, if we were at a subatomic scale, then we would be subject to quantum mechanics where nothing is deterministic right. When you get to a small enough scale, any particle is in multiple, is in superposition, it can be many things in many places at once. It doesn't necessarily exist, yet it's not a one or a zero, it's both a one and a zero at the same time. So no information exists at that scale.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, I guess I believe you. I mean this is so interesting. So just to clarify, so like, because we, if we at that scale, if you, if humanity existed, if our reality was at that scale, right a? It sounds like we would. We wouldn't be a one or a zero right, we would know what was up or down right, but also like we would have no ability to comprehend or think in level we can, because even the size of our brains right, to really simplify it at this scale allows for it.
Speaker 2:Is that right? That's right, which which means essentially that particles have to organize themselves at a certain scale in order to start computing right reality wow and experiencing it fascinating yeah, which obviously can be small enough for like microorganisms, but it can't be smaller than like subatomic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay so what's interesting is if you think about okay, well, well, that's us Right, maybe we had to exist at a certain scale or develop bodies to experience reality. But because our brains are evolved for survival, our brains evolved in such a way that we can only experience a limited amount of the reality because we exist at a certain scale. For example, quantum mechanics is completely not intuitive for us.
Speaker 2:We can barely explain it in terms of barely describe what it does, because it's so counterintuitive. We think something either is or is not. This is sort of like all stages of becoming the thing or all possible outcomes all together at the same time.
Speaker 1:And I know I cut you off. So what do you mean? This makes you think about religion.
Speaker 2:The first thing that occurred to me was we have a word for non-human intelligence already. It's very odd to me that people don't make this connection more often, more quickly. Non-human intelligence is God. That's what God is. God is a superior non-human intelligence. Sure, yes, and so okay, things in the sky. Then, of course, in the Bible, the wheels of Ezekiel. But the different phenomena that were described in the Bible could suddenly be explained if you just assumed that it was UFOs all along. Oh, I love this.
Speaker 1:I love where this is going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so then when you say, for example, like, like, why should we be skeptical? Now, I'm not, by the way, I'm not like I'm very spiritual because of all the things that I'm describing, but I'm not, I'm not part of any religion and I grew up Catholic, but so I'm, I'm, I'm fascinated by theology, but it's more of an academic exercise, so please indulge me here.
Speaker 3:Of course.
Speaker 2:But right, why shouldn't we take? Let's posit that maybe we should take seriously the Bible as testimonials from real people in history. Yeah, let's say that maybe they actually recorded history, right. And so if you take seriously that it could be someone describing something that they saw, it's very easy to say, okay, well, maybe they were seeing UFOs, sure. And then you can go all sorts of great places from there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I bet there's also. I'm sure you've already gone down this rabbit hole, but there's a lot of really great paintings from like the medieval times that depict.
Speaker 3:UFOs.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's one of my favorite things to look at on the internet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Right, and then you get into all sorts of interesting theories. So, for example, I started interpreting the fall as having to do with being stuck in a gravitational field. Tell us what the fall is. Yes, so the fall, like you know, genesis in the Bible and, essentially, god. It's essentially the story about of Adam and Eve, who, are, you know, live in a paradise. They are allowed to live in this paradise for as long as they don't eat from a particular, I believe, the tree of knowledge. If I'm not, mistaken.
Speaker 2:And of course they do. And then they quote, unquote, fall. And so immediately I thought like, okay, well, what do we mean by fall? We could mean that we're falling from a higher dimension, because maybe in 10 dimensions, maybe we would experience things so much differently that it would be effectively paradise. And so there's something where you're falling dimensionally. Now we're limited to living in four dimensions, which means we experience time, we experience death.
Speaker 1:Do we know and this is a very silly question probably what the 10 supposed dimensions are?
Speaker 2:So no, but I've seen attempts at it.
Speaker 1:And why 10?
Speaker 2:10, because I don't know the math behind it. Essentially, the idea behind string theory which is falling out of favor is my understanding, not that I understand it terribly much, but essentially it's literally string these strings at a super small scale. Depending on how they vibrate, they generate different particles and then those particles combine to become atoms, combine to become molecules and so on and so forth and essentially for the math to work the strings have to vibrate into 10 different dimensions. So I guess if you're thinking about like vectors and you know the X, y, z, they're adding to that space. It's normalized in a sense in the math where, like all that complexity that's happening spatially is quantified somehow in some notation. So it's like you can like extrapolate from it the math works if it vibrates in 10 dimensions.
Speaker 1:Got it Okay, so what are our guesses of what the dimensions are?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I've seen attempts at it. Here's my attempt yes, okay well, I'm going to start at four. Okay, and so in four dimensions we live in a cube, but the cube is changing within itself yeah um, and that.
Speaker 2:That's how it, what it looks like, if you, if you watch, like an illustration of what the fourth dimension might look like. It's essentially like I think it's a tetrahedron, if I'm not mistaken, but it's essentially a cube. That's kind of changing within itself, but we're in three spatial dimensions and we're changing within ourselves as a function of time, which is the fourth dimension. Space-time are related, hence why, basically bending the fabric of space-time with gravity and resulting in things falling along the vector of the bend in the fabric means that they are moving faster and therefore their clocks are running more slowly. Okay, in the fifth dimension we have to think about it's essentially if you've ever seen Interstellar I have Okay, well, so that movie explores this where what we experience as time is potentially itself a spatial dimension we just can't experience.
Speaker 2:Okay, I understand that Right and so the fun scene of Matthew McConaughey banging at the back of the bookshelf, yeah, that's all based on this kind of idea. Okay, so that's kind of the fifth dimension, where, if suddenly, like, what we experience as time is actually in itself a physical dimension, then that means that potentially, like, you can explore different parts of it, which possibly mean, like, different possibilities.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure, and that's arguably, I mean my, in my intuition says that what's happening in quantum mechanics is essentially like a higher dimensional view or experience of time, such that you actually have all timelines, all possible timelines, as one thing wow yeah, and that's like what's in the fifth dimension got it okay wild cap this off by saying certainly the one one popular explanation of quantum mechanics is many worlds yeah so, essentially, like, all those possibilities exist at the same time in multiple universes, kind of a.
Speaker 1:Thing and right, and so the parallel timelines that kind of stuff, yeah right oh, I see, okay, so I think I understand. So five is kind of like the idea of, and then six is that all of those different ideas coexist in many timelines and universes, at the same time in different places and whatever Fascinating, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think let's take a step back and I'm going to do my best to explain quantum mechanics, which For the people like me who are writers and not very good with Excel. That's how I make my living. Folks spreadsheets.
Speaker 1:Okay, Andy, so explain to us quantum mechanics.
Speaker 2:All right, yeah, I'm going to do my best, because it's really hard to do. I've been watching YouTube videos about it for several years and it's still the problem. The challenge is that it's not intuitive. So, but the famous experiment that demonstrated quantum physics was called the double slit experiment. Let's say you have a little let's just call it like a gun, and the gun shoots one electron, and it shoots it at a wall that has two slits, and so what you would expect is that the particle that you're firing from this gun is either going to miss the slits or else go through one, or else go through the other one, and you're firing many, many, many electrons. So what you would expect to see is that once they hit the measuring device on the other side of the wall, past the slits, what you would expect to be recorded would be two vertical lines. Sure, okay.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Instead, what you see is five vertical lines, and the reason is that the electron that was fired from the gun exists at all positions where it could possibly be at the same time, and so if you think about a wave that has to go through two slits, it gets I guess you'd call it refracted or something along those lines and so then it interferes with itself, and that's the interference pattern where, for example, the crests and valleys meet, and they cancel each other out, and the things that don't cancel each other out are the things that remain, and so the things that remain end up making five lines on the measuring device, five lines on the measuring device. And so the explanation is that that one electron exists in all possible positions at the same time until it's measured, and then it's only in one of those positions, the most probable one.
Speaker 1:Oh, so it's probability.
Speaker 2:And that's where the intuition especially starts to break down, because the math that is used to describe how that wave right, you think it's about the particle, but also because it's in all possible positions at the same time, it forms essentially like a wave. Sure, right. The math that you use to explain how that wave propagates leaves you with the same math as probability.
Speaker 1:And that's essentially what you were saying when you were explaining the fifth dimension. Right, that's right that things exist in the same place at the same time. There's some probability, space.
Speaker 2:All these possibilities exist at the same time. The debate and the thing that nobody can figure out is you know what happens when it's called, when the wave collapses to the most probable point in space, whereas previously it was at all possible points in space at the same time, but it collapses to one point in space? What happens to all those other possibilities? So there's the many worlds explanation, which says that each of those possibilities individually continue to exist in their own branches of the universe of reality, or there's interpretation, where it can't be random. There must be something that would explain why it collapses in one point and not the others. But people really struggle to understand what happens to those possibilities. Where do those possibilities exist? Because they do exist at a quantum level.
Speaker 1:Can I ask you another silly kindergarten level question about this? This, okay, so we're talking about, in your example, like an electron right. How does that scale up to humanity? Like, how do we think, yeah, that you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like, help us take the leap yeah, okay, now this is where my, uh, my understanding of physics is is obviously ultimately extremely limited. I'm aman, but there's something to the effect of there's the standard model Basically tells you, there are I don't know how many I can visualize it, and I don't know 16 or so, maybe fewer than that elementary particles, out of which everything else comes to be through combinations of these things. And so an electron is, I believe it's the combination of two of those particles, but essentially these things come together, they become entangled with each other, which means that they interact. In their interaction, they will give off light that may cause another interaction, or, if it strikes a particular particle, it might split into two elementary particles, and so all these interactions are happening.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And these things are coming together and they're becoming more complex over time. Right, all these particles existing in space are interacting with each other and combining with each other in a more orderly way over the evolution of the universe, right to get back to the space aliens yeah, uh, you. One thing I wonder about is whether these beings are some self-organization of particles that interact with each other in such a way that it's conscious and so it's existing at this sort of like. It's all around us, it's part of our reality and it's sentient. So that's another possibility. And, of course, just to get back to the end of space, or there's the extraterrestrial possibility or some combination thereof.
Speaker 1:Or some interdimensional alternate universe that sometimes bleeds through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, exactly right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, so I'm a little late to the party here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hi, you know, I know about the first three dimensions absolutely exactly right, yeah, yeah, so I'm a little late to the party here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, hey, man now, hi, uh, you know, I, I know about the first three dimensions and we're already up to the fifth, so like wow. But I absolutely love sci-fi and it's so interesting how a lot of times, when there's like world building and they're talking about, uh, like interacting with some kind of like new alien race, everything is usually kept still on like the same plane, same dimension, because once you go into these higher level concepts, it gets so cloudy. Yeah, so so fast, yeah, um, so the way you were able to just like break it down was like Pretty cool.
Speaker 1:I now understand interstellar and glitches in the matrix and you know a thousand other things yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, because, based off your description, you're saying like well, what about when other universes bleed through? Now we're just talking about other probabilities. Right, possibly interacting, that's right, with ours, that's correct.
Speaker 1:It's canceling ours out like a way, a crest on the wave.
Speaker 3:There is not necessarily a delineation between that's right.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right.
Speaker 3:See, that's heavy. That's exactly right yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I, I, it's exactly right. And so, like you know what, where we began this conversation was you know what did I do next after that New York times article? I started thinking like this and I think, like, regardless of whether what's being reported is real, or maybe it's a psyop, or maybe it's a disinformation campaign from a foreign government that wants to radicalize young men, for example, and give them a sort of a cultish, you know, for example, what the January 6th shaman?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I heard him give a very, very similarly elucidated explanation of interdimensional beings, and so I listen to that. I go. Ok, I wonder, potentially, is this is like an act, like active measures by, for like, by Russian intelligence, to basically like radicalize? Oh, it's the cover up, right? Oh, the deep state is not telling you the truth about aliens. It's time to weaponize your curiosity is one of the uh, the slogans.
Speaker 3:Um, and so I'm also skeptical at the same time I say I I've always been like very skeptical when it comes to, you know, government conspiracies and everything you know there's. There's generally at least available some kind of easy explanation that doesn't involve some kind of grandiose scheme, right, right. So the one thing that I can't get out of my head was just this one comment that I read that said the government is going to keep throwing absolutely ridiculous stuff at us to make us so exhausted. Correct that by the time they actually want to start implementing real things, we're too tired to care.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that's right. That's another one. I think there's something similar, if not exactly that. The conspiracy theory is called Project Blue Beam and some whistleblower comes forward and says that there's a plan to rewrite the history of the human race and to tell you that there are space aliens and like that's.
Speaker 1:you know, graham, uh, graham hancock andy I, I actually we don't have to jump the shark too soon but, I do think you have some thoughts on and I've talked to you a lot about your thoughts on politics today and how that relates to all of this.
Speaker 2:Yes, so there's potentially a couple of things going on. So to take a step back, UFOs are political, Sure, Necessarily, Because one of the reasons why folks in the know again reputable people credentialed. Everything else will say something like the problem is that the government doesn't know what it is or what to do about it, and that's going to cause people to lose faith in their government or it's going to cause people to form cults. So it's called catastrophic disclosure. If tomorrow you walked outside and there were flying saucers flying around in the sky, you would go into what they refer to as like ontological shock.
Speaker 1:It would cause like mass chaos and panic. We'd be like what do I know about?
Speaker 2:anything anymore.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right Like ontological shock.
Speaker 2:Ontological shock, in other words, like a sudden realization or insight into your reality that you're not prepared to handle. I see, yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, like your, like existential crisis, to like the max.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like if we're. You know, if we're serious about interdimensional beings or different universes interacting with each other, then you know, imagine you're walking outside and a UFO materialized out of seemingly thin air. That would call into question what, what space is, if something can materialize there. Are we living in a simulation? Are we a hologram? This, that and the other thing, the very thing that we paper over on a daily basis by enslaving ourselves to our employers. We want to not think about these ontological issues and we would suddenly be confronted with them, and that would be a national security problem.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's why there is some thing to be said, I suppose, or there is some logic potentially behind these coverups and the slow release of information around, like obviously the government knows much more than we know about all this and they may perhaps got to a point where they felt like they needed to start trickling it into society because they think there could be something that's going to reveal itself, and if they don't slowly trickle it in, everyone will have a mental breakdown.
Speaker 2:Correct, correct, and I think they've had a timeline for this for some time. And so, for example, like I think there are there's documentation Just check me If I'm wrong, I don't mean to the Pentagon has worked with, like Hollywood, to basically get different stories out there. So like Arrival, for example, right, basically get different stories out there. So like arrival, for example, sure, right, where it's like, well, because one theory is like these things might be crypto terrestrial, there's a, there's another one crypto terrestrial, where they're living on the earth, we just don't come across them. So, for example, the easy thing to say of we know more about outer space than we do our own oceans right so like miles and miles and miles deep into the ocean the mariana trench right are there?
Speaker 2:are there intelligent beings there, and have they developed some sort of technology? So are we dealing with squid?
Speaker 1:right, right, possibly, yeah right whoa.
Speaker 2:Potentially there's some timeline. Maybe they know somehow that you know who knows? 2025 sounds like a good as any candidate for the year in which. So that's Project 2025. Right, just bringing the world down.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so, andy, let me ask you this yeah. There's that, which I think totally makes a ton of sense, right as a theory. Yeah, you and I have also talked about though for instance at the time that we are recording this which full disclosure is in the past, right Indeed.
Speaker 3:Time is relative Exactly.
Speaker 1:There are tons and tons of drones hovering over the state of New Jersey, and you and I spent a while today talking about that and talking about what those could be, and you told me some of your theories what those could be, and you told me some of your theories and I think that led us to a conversation about, okay, let me boil down your theory and you'll keep me honest, that these are us government machines that are being redistributed across the East coast because there could be world war three and you know, on its way. So that's your theory. Okay, and then my thought was okay, so, if we have, and I said to you but does the fbi? Yeah, really not know that? And you said I don't think that they do, there's a higher government power. And so I said, okay, there's a higher government power, like massive tech money, massive. Yeah, how do? How does something like trump fit into this? And that's where I would love for you to to tell everyone kind of your thoughts.
Speaker 2:Sure, okay, so I'll also mention that. You know just as this drone and stuff is happening. Today I read that the the secretary general of NATO basically said that NATO needs to prepare for World War III. So he made that declaration today.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, it's not something you want to hear.
Speaker 2:No, certainly not, but I think we all need to hear it. I think we need to again to the point about being exhausted, being wrapped up in different narratives that we create in our culture, that we also consume through our screens. Yeah, if we can just drop the veil and kind of talk about what's really going on, yeah.
Speaker 2:And not be avoidant about it. There's all this going on in the background. Let's say World War III, all these things, all these world events are happening, and we'll return to those in a moment. But as far as Trump is concerned Trump, in my mind, the only way I can understand Trump now, given his relationship with Elon Musk, is that Trump is an avatar for oligarchs that are following the Russian playbook, and essentially it's these billionaires yeah and not to. I hesitated there because it's become a bit of an epithet to say billionaires and it, I think it like, has lost a little bit of its meaning. I'm talking about folks who have so much money that they can do whatever they want, anytime, sure, okay, without any limitation.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you really have to wonder what that does to somebody. Sure, do. And so you have these folks. And in Russia they figured out that if you, mafia style, basically find a demagogue that can control the population politically, then you can maximize your freedom, because you can maximize how much money you have and how much you can get away with.
Speaker 3:Right, you don't have to spend your time dealing with the populace, because that's someone else's job.
Speaker 2:That's right, exactly, and also like you can do whatever you want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have infinite money.
Speaker 2:Okay Now what we're finding ourselves dealing with today, at our point in history, so technological advance. It turns out that these oligarchs are technological oligarchs and they subscribe to a philosophy or they participate in a movement. And this is, if you're listening and you take one thing away. I hope it's this. Everybody should Google the Techno-Optimist Manifesto by Mark Andreessen, of Andreessen Horowitz. Ok, so no slouch.
Speaker 2:This guy is sort of a quintessential, the epitome of the venture capitalist, the guy that inspires the culture around venture capitalism and tech. He wrote a very Nietzschean manifesto where we are technological supermen and essentially like we need to accelerate, we need to accelerate, we need to move faster, we need to remove regulation. We need to remove regulation. We have to find out what the government knows about so-called UFOs, because whether you believe in aliens or not, the irreducible fact is that there are there's some physics that the government knows about that they're potentially using to build their own technology, or else they're observing another extraterrestrial technology. But there's some physics that the government knows about that they're keeping secret and these techno optimists want to get access to this physics because it will enable them to accelerate and, for example, become, make humans interplanetary and all that stuff.
Speaker 3:That sounds not so bad.
Speaker 2:Well, right, exactly, and so you know, honestly, it's a silver lining. The problem is that you know any form of well. My interpretation of fascism is if there is a major technological development in a society, for example like the Industrial Revolution in the late 19th century, then a society basically has to completely remodel its economy and the way that it organizes itself, and in order, for example, to build up giant cities with trains and all the sorts of industrial mechanisms that you need to have a modern economy, you might turn to fascism in order to force your population to do that. I think we're at a similar moment in history now, where there's a new form of fascism that is trying to figure out how to restructure society to deal with those new physics and or artificial intelligence.
Speaker 2:Another possible explanation for UAP Artificial intelligence. That's right, how Well. Because if artificial intelligence is ultimately a computation, the question that one needs to ask oneself is whether computations happen at some scale that we don't have access to. So, for example, if particles are sort of computing something at some scale that we don't have access to, potentially into other dimensions that we don't have access to, potentially into other dimensions that we don't have access to, is there some computation. That's happening. That effectively generates a consciousness, and so that's another explanation for UAP.
Speaker 1:Fascinating. And to just make sure I understand kind of the point on Trump a little bit too, the idea is that Trump, that the government holds and you mentioned this earlier to me that perhaps this, you know, physics was discovered during, like the Manhattan Project, and then it was put away because it was so powerful and scary, and even more so than the bomb right, and so that existed since that time and it's being held secret. And so if you get Trump in a position of power, if he's armed with Elon Musk, he could access that because it's being held secret. And so if you get Trump in a position of power, if he's armed with Elon Musk, he could access that because it's a government-owned thing.
Speaker 2:And it's specifically locked away, they say, in the Department of Energy. And so it's interesting. I think, as of today, thursday, december 12th, I don't believe that Trump has nominated anyone yet for Secretary of Energy, but stay tuned, because that might tell you something. Depending on who he puts there, right, I might tell you something about what he wants out of there, because the um, yeah, the speculation is that, like the department, I think of how strange it is to call part of your government the department of energy, right, what are we talking about? Energy? What is energy? What are we? Whoa? Yeah, of course, the department of energy. Wait a minute. What's energy? What are we talking about? What does that mean? Energy? What does that word mean? We're talking about nuclear energy, but it's not just nuclear energy, it's the research into energy, right, how to find energies in seemingly empty space, right, the vacuum energy, right.
Speaker 2:Or how to harness energy such that you could potentially bend space-time Right, potentially bend space-time Right. And essentially, if you think about, think about a flat piece of paper, yeah, and let's say that flat piece of paper, right, that represents a plane. At one side of the plane, you have point A. On the other side of the plane, you have point B, something needs to go from point A to point B. That's a certain distance. But if you have enough energy to bend the plane, then points A and B come closer together and you can move more quickly. But from someone who doesn't have uh, isn't within that frame of reference is creating a gravitational field to bend space-time in that way? You're not there, so you don't see it.
Speaker 2:So, from your point of view, something accelerates instantaneously right right, and so one of the things that people observe, these things, uh, as doing, it's kind of like a slingshot right when, like it looks.
Speaker 3:No, because it's not moving.
Speaker 1:What do you mean?
Speaker 3:So a slingshot would be an acceleration and a stop right. It moves really really fast. It's not moving really really fast. The space is moving around you and stuff. Yes, exactly right, exactly right.
Speaker 2:And so at the Department of of energy, they are exploring how do you control energy in such a way that you can create these warps in space-time, such that you can get from one point to another and we know that they're working on this thing.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, how can they not?
Speaker 2:you know, this is the type of thing where, like this, has been talked about in science fiction, since, you know, early 1900s.
Speaker 3:That's right. And so, yeah, here we have. Say, they stumbled across something that it looks to be tangentially applicable to the field. Right, but it's not perfect. So instead, yeah, maybe they figured out a way to move an electron, you know, from point a to point b by folding space-time. That's right, but in the folding, uh, say it's, it's not just like harmless, say it causes everything that folds to just get destroyed.
Speaker 2:That's right, and wouldn't the aliens be mad about that? So I mean that's another explanation, for example, of like why, yeah, absolutely, why um? Why ufos um tend to be found around our um nuclear? Assets right, and so one explanation is they don't want us blowing up anything anymore. Because what we don't realize is that when we detonate a nuclear bomb, you're concentrating an incredible amount of energy in a small amount of space, which means you're going to bend that space and who knows what you're doing to the poor folks at different scales.
Speaker 1:Well, what if?
Speaker 2:They might say hey, wait a minute.
Speaker 1:We're on the verge of world war three right that's right, just as trump is about to hit the button. Yeah, aliens, come down and save us well.
Speaker 2:So I believe that that is a plausible explanation and, of course, as soon as um, you know, as soon as I find myself thinking in such a let's call it like a salvationist way, sure, immediately I go red flag, wait a minute, oh that's too. Wait a minute, oh, that's too wishful, but that was where I went originally with it, which is like, okay, well, now let's get back to the Bible. We got things that people were calling angels were actually UFOs, and the UFOs were participating in the evolution of human society, because the goal of let's assume that these are benevolent. And so, again, in the context of the Bible, that they're trying to save us, and in the context of the fall if we take the fall to mean a fall in terms of dimensions, to a lower dimension where we experience time and death, then the solution is they need to teach us the technology to access higher dimensions.
Speaker 2:Right, and so, essentially, they're developing society in such a way that we develop technology, including by instigating wars between religions. Quote, unquote, different sets of UFOs. So we fight, we develop our technology, we fight, we develop our technology to the point where we develop artificial intelligence.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we're going to put a pin in the conversation with Andy there for now, as they say, and we're going to come back next episode and pick things up where we left off. I hope everyone is staying well and staying safe and we will talk to you very soon.
