Lunatics Radio Hour
The history of horror and the horror of history.
Lunatics Radio Hour
Episode 158 - The History of Superhero Horror: Part 1
Listen in as Abby and Alan discuss the origins of superhero horror, starting with the earliest instances of folk heros, and the very first superhero comics. From Hugo Hercules to Robinhood, the Scarlett Pimpernel and Namor the Submariner.
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Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Lunatics Radio Hour podcast. I'm Ab Abby Brenker sitting here with Alan Kudan.
Speaker 2:Hello.
Speaker 1:And today we are talking about superhero horror. Alan, this is your topic, so I'll let you take it away.
Speaker 2:Okay, I have nothing prepared.
Speaker 1:I understand. So today we are talking about all things superheroes, from the very earliest versions of superheroes to how they've evolved today. And, of course, what we really want to get to at the end of this journey, which I expect to be a meaty one, is superhero horror. But I think, to understand that we have to first understand the building blocks of the superhero subgenre. And I will say, despite this being a topic that came from Alan and it's not.
Speaker 2:No, no, no. What are you saying here? Despite the fact that it came from Alan, it's actually quite good.
Speaker 1:Superheroes are not something that I'm generally as interested in outside of Batman, and I really enjoyed the research. No, you also love Spider-Man Reign I know and you're going to say, I do love Spider-Man Re, but I really enjoyed the research. I learned a lot. I thought it was really cool and I'm excited to share it. There's a lot to say.
Speaker 2:It's a great topic.
Speaker 1:Well done, Alan.
Speaker 2:I'd say it's right up there with Godzilla for overall relevance to the zeitgeist.
Speaker 1:And we will promise to keep this series much shorter than the Godzilla Kaiju series from two summers ago.
Speaker 2:Why are you just handicapping me right off the bat?
Speaker 1:I just think it's important to let people know You're just cutting my knees out. We lost a lot of listeners on that one.
Speaker 2:Sure, we might have culled the flock.
Speaker 1:Yeah, only the strong survive. So today's conversation is going to thread between folk heroes from history, modern day superheroes and, of course, the dark side of this subgenre, which I think is really baked into the fabric of of it generally. Right, when you have someone who is a folk hero, there's always a double-edged sword there what do you mean?
Speaker 1:I think it's just a mechanic in the superhero format, like it sets itself up really well when you have a hero that either is imperfect, right, which is general humanity, or there's complexities with stepping into power that maybe you didn't have or didn't plan, and it is a rich environment for there to be an exploration of a dark side or ethics or other things like that.
Speaker 2:Oh, but that's where a lot of the fun writing comes from, so I'm sure we're going to get into this later in the episode. However, superheroes in comics right that's. I guess that's where they started sure is, have you know, have been in public. Some some of these same heroes have been in publication for uh, almost 100 years now. Superman started in what? 39, I think, so we're not too far away from his hunt for his uh, centennial, if you know he's pretty old and, yeah, back then things were that I think that's the silver age.
Speaker 2:Um, it's like during the 30s and 40s. Yeah, they're pretty one-dimensional characters. They are goody two-shoes, they have completely rigid morals, they never diverge from anything. Really, uh, they're very, very predictable and bland. You know just how we liked it back in the 30s and 40s. It's the idea of, like you know, think about what types of movies were super successful in the 30s and 40s.
Speaker 1:I would give the 30s and 40s a bit more credit with like the pre-code era of film was pretty good.
Speaker 2:I mean nothing bad even happened in those decades, but to that point, when there was so much instability in life, there was a lot of comfort to be had in completely escapist, safe entertainment.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Yep.
Speaker 2:So now those stories have been done again and again. Throughout the years, these same characters have gone through so many different iterations again and again. Throughout the years, these same characters have gone through so many different iterations, so many different writers, so many different mediums. Really, Of course, they're going to evolve and change and become very different things, just to keep them fun and relevant. And I think one of the big changes happened somewhere in like the 80s.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:When the people who had grown up with maybe some different facets of comics in like the early 80s or late 70s are now going to start writing stuff in the late 80s and 90s, that's just like a bit edgier, a bit more dramatic, a bit more for adults. Because, like I don't know, maybe these things, you know, comic books are associated with young boys, right, yep. Adults because, like I don't know, maybe these things, you know, comic books, you're associated with young boys, right? Yep, but when those young boys grow up and become comic book artists and writers, they're gonna want to do their own thing and they still love these characters very dearly, but they're going to put more adult tones on it.
Speaker 2:And so we're seeing this now in video games, where video games used to be like a very uh, just a toy for kids. Of course, there's always adults that play video games, but now, yes, we still have video games for kids, but those usually come in the form of, like mobile games, the games that come out on, like playstation and steam. These are for a whole generation that has grown up with games their entire lives, so they are not associated with children. This is like a comfort thing, a big pastime for many people and they are made by adults for their adults and superheroes went through kind of the same genesis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a really great comparison actually that I had not thought of. I think superheroes just had a longer run right before they kind of upshot, but I do think had a longer run right before they kind of upshot. But I do think, going back to your comment, that it's fascinating because I think during periods of turmoil there's also studies that show people gravitate towards horror much more, whether it's or you know, I'm sure it's also true, for they gravitate towards entertainment in general and some people want really safe entertainment and some people want total escapism, horror where they can get that adrenaline but know that they're safe in a theater or in their home.
Speaker 2:It's total escape horror. It's basically two sides of the same coin, of just like a musical Right, Because both these things are so unrealistic that you are completely removed from reality. Surrealistic that you are completely removed from reality. When you are watching Freddy Krueger go all campy and like stab a bunch of teenagers you're not dealing with like a moral gray area that really just like sits with you in your bones. You know that's a fun escapism. I feel like it's the type of horror of like the road where it's really hard decisions and really hard times that movie or book probably would not have done very well during a heavy depression era.
Speaker 1:Sure. Yeah, I'm just trying to make the point that horror is also part of that escapism, and we see trends of like during World War Two right or or during great wars in the U? S is when you see like Dracula become a thing in film and that stuff comes back. So to your point. Yes, I'm not saying like hereditary is the thing that people are gravitating towards when there's horrifying things happening in the world, but I do think escapism through horror is just as prevalent as escapism through musicals.
Speaker 2:And talking about superheroes and horror villains, there's really not a lot of difference. When looking at the characters themselves, the real difference is like just the decisions that they happen to make. So Freddy Krueger you know he's a technically superhuman, right? Sure, he's a guy. That was involved.
Speaker 1:He's just not wearing a cape In a terrible accident.
Speaker 2:Not a terrible accident. He was thrown into a fire, but he was involved. He's just not wearing a cape in a terrible accident. Not a terrible accident. He was thrown into a fire, but he was involved in an incident he was like a horrible, horrible human yes, but he has an origin story is what you're saying.
Speaker 2:Yes, he went through some kind of incident that gave him all these supernatural abilities that he now uses to terrorize teenagers. Yeah, Okay, had he gone through the same origin and then been like. You know what I'm now going to fight crime. I'm going to haunt the dreams of all the bad people on the world that's now a superhero.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So the line is really just tone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, totally. I think it's an interesting conversation we're having because, thanks, yeah, no, I genuinely do, because I do think that this almost like black and white view of these things, right, like you either have superheroes that are representing horror, like we talked about Brightburn, the Dark Knight, things that are really dark, or you have the Adam West Batman, right, and it's the polar opposite. It's the same character but it's through a totally different lens and I do think that there is probably something we could do if we took the time to do it, to sit down and map out when these tones are spiking right and why, and is society shifting towards this or shifting towards that? Are we in a bit of a bubble right now with this oversaturation of, like these anti-heroes and dark horror things that are going to shift a little bit in the next few years and be a little bit lighter? I don't know. I'm just saying it's an interesting conversation.
Speaker 2:On that note, we definitely are. You know, the superhero bubble has burst already. You know we had almost 20 years of Marvel movies pumping out. I mean, we've had more than that. But springing back to the first truly successful movie in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which was Iron man 1. That came out in 2008. So now, being 2025, we're just a few years short of two decades. Everyone has seen the superhero origin story. Everyone has seen the sequel, where, like oh no, the greater villain shows up and you have to rise to the occasion. Maybe you're going to get hit with a couple heavy moral choices. That's going to really test you. Yeah, but I don't know. Again, we've seen it. There's been so fucking many movies and I love superheroes and I'm over it it takes a lot to get me to see a new Marvel movie these days.
Speaker 1:Same.
Speaker 2:Despite the fact that I absolutely loved this content for so many years.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The superhero movies that are still coming out that people really resonate with are the antihero motif. The latest Deadpool and Wolverine movie broke a bunch of records yet again, despite the fact that it's just another superhero movie technically, uh, but boy, is he morally ambiguous or, dare I say, dubious. Yes, that's what's keeping people interested at this point, and this is the same overall arc that superheroes have taken throughout history.
Speaker 1:They are on the straight and narrow, they're predictable, and now we're dealing with counterculture, just to mix it up I mean, I also think it's just a deepening when you have one character Batman, or any of these characters, but let's just say Batman and you're telling the story of Batman over and, over and over again. And I'm not complaining, right, love, love, batman. But you're forced into shaking it up, otherwise, no studio is going to greenlight your idea, right, it has to be different, and there's only so many different ways.
Speaker 2:You can explore that, and I suppose batman the musical is going to be on its way soon.
Speaker 1:Well, batman the musical has indeed already happened, dang, I missed it however, you hit the key word though studios.
Speaker 2:Uh, because like, yes, it has to be new and fresh and different, but it also has to be the same and that has also been like a tried and true staple of these franchises from the beginning where there has to be some consistency and it has to be a safe bet for the studio to greenlight. In the first place, robert Pattinson's Batman was coming fresh off the heels of the Nolan Batman, and in this case they realized that an ultra realistic, ultra gritty Batman was what people liked. And then they took it to kind of a ridiculous degree where people don't even have special abilities anymore.
Speaker 1:I would argue that it's not ridiculous personally, but we can get to that later.
Speaker 2:Sure, I don't know, neither villain actually has superpowers in real life, but still it was just too dark, too gritty. I don't think it was too dark or too gritty. I don't know, neither villain actually has superpowers in real life, but still it was just too dark, too gritty, I don't think it was too dark or too gritty.
Speaker 1:I think it was too long.
Speaker 2:No, I just I don't. I love Adam West Batman. I also love seeing Val Kilmer and Arnold Schwarzenegger do ridiculous things and be super, super campy and like. I think it's going to be a while until we get a batman like that again I was actually talking about at work.
Speaker 1:I have a new job and I was talking about how alan and I have been watching all these superhero movies and that you know we're both nerds, and in different ways, I would say, and if you put the venn diagram of our nerdom and just interest in different pop culture things right, there's the alan Circle and the Abbey Circle and the overlap in the middle I think is just the only.
Speaker 2:And their pomp rules.
Speaker 1:The only thing that exists there is the Nolan Batman Like. I think we've never been more excited to watch something together than rewatching that series. I just think it's perfectly nostalgic for both of us. But before we get too far, let's acknowledge our sources for this entire series. A Historycom article the Real Robin Hood. A National Geographic article the Real History Behind the Legend of Sun Wukong, china's Monkey King. By Parisa Daganji. An Atlas Obscura article by Eric Grundhauser Meet Spring-Heeled Jack, the Leaping Devil that terrorized Victorian England. A DCcom blog article Party Like it's 1989, why Tim Burton's Batman Endures. A New York Times article, which was the Joker Review Are you Kidding Me? By AO Scott. A Vice article by Gita Jackson. Robert Pattinson is the most believable Batman. A Historycom article by Jesse Greenspan. Eight Pattinson is the most believable Batman. A Historycom article by Jesse Greenspan eight things you may not know about Superman. All right, alan, in order to understand this very niche subgenre with a bit more historical context, let's talk about the history of superheroes.
Speaker 2:Okay, why don't you start?
Speaker 1:Predating superheroes in pop culture are mythical heroes from literature and ancient belief. Names like Odysseus, thor, spring-heeled Jack, robin Hood, gilgamesh and Hercules come to mind.
Speaker 2:Disney lied to us yet again, Despite all of the fun sing-alongs in the movie. The official pronunciation is now accepted as Heracles.
Speaker 1:Ah, Heracles, not Hercules.
Speaker 2:I mean he's named after Hera because he was born out of wedlock. So he's Zeus's son but not Hera's son.
Speaker 1:I forgot who's Hercules's mother, because he has a different mom. They named him after the mom he didn't have.
Speaker 2:Yes, kind of fucked up. So you know, zeus and Hera are married. Yeah, who the hell is Hercules? Oh, a mortal wife. That's why she was just a human and Hera was going to absolutely murder this child, because that is her MO. Her entire personality is apparently based around the fact that she just goes after her husband's mistress's offspring, because that's apparently all she is. But regardless, they named him Heracles as a way of appeasement, to placate her, so that hopefully she wouldn't murder him. And that was kind of enough. She's still quite mean to him.
Speaker 1:So, speaking of Heracles, can you give us, like, a little bit more about like for those of us I'm raising my hand who did not see the Disney movie, which I still have never seen, really, yeah, oh, my goodness, can you tell us just like the story of Heracles in like?
Speaker 2:five sentences or less, like why is he a folk hero? I love calling on Alan for Greek mythology just off the top of his head. So Heracles, born son of Zeus to a mortal mother. They were not married, because he's already married to Hera and then is famous for just straight up trying to murder any child that Zeus happens to have out of wedlock. They named him Heracles as appeasement, as we discussed, but she still had a bit of a chip on her shoulder. So what she did?
Speaker 2:She sent the madness into Heracles because you, she hated him and he's famous for being the strong guy incredible strength, battle prowess, all these things. He's just kind of dumb. That's his critical flaw. He's kind of dumb and not like thor dumb. So, like in norse mythology, like thor is fucking dumb, he makes really stupid decisions. He's actually kind of like a reasonable battle tactician, while Thor is just like incredibly powerful and like I'm just going to hit you with the hammer and that's how I solve my problems. Anyways, heracles settled down, had a wife, had kids, and then Hera sends the madness onto him and he loses himself and he sees his wife and children as monsters and brutally, just like, beats them to death dang, that's really dark and just as he deals the final blow, she releases the madness.
Speaker 2:So he can like see live with the shame and the guilt to see what happened in the final moments which it's pretty pretty dark yeah so disney movie. No, this part. They omitted this part. He's a very loved child in this, in the in the movie he's hades is the bad guy and like sends it's a whole thing I don't want to spoil it for you, sure.
Speaker 2:But regardless, to atone for these horrible misdeeds, he sets out and he's like really ashamed. But then there's also this king involved, that maybe it's the king that can officially cleanse his record or his soul, or whatever it is. And so this king sets out these 12 labors for him to do, and I think it actually starts as less than 12, but the number goes up a couple times as he does these things and he keeps giving Heracles these absolutely impossible tasks. But you know, he's Heracles, right? He's literally mythic, and so of course, he accomplishes all of them with flying colors. But every one of them is this like monumental feat, that is like a folktale in itself that's fascinating.
Speaker 1:I'll have to watch the movie none of that isn't sorry.
Speaker 2:Some of it is in the movie, but very weird bastardizations, sure. It's a very fun movie okay great couple, real bangers, exciting. But yeah, they take a lot of liberties.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, that's, you know, their prerogative. I also want to take a second to talk about Robin Hood, Obviously jumping ahead in history quite a bit, but I think names like Hercules, robin Hood even more so than like Thor and Gilgamesh are in Odysseus even are, like, embedded in our understanding. Like most people know who Robin Hood is generally, but let's talk about a little bit of the history. Robin Hood is famous for stealing from the rich and giving to the poor.
Speaker 1:The legend of Robin Hood is over 700 years old and, as many people probably know, he lives in Sherwood Forest with his merry band of men, while King Richard is absent. The story goes. Robin Hood tries to maintain justice and works against the corrupt sheriff of Nottingham. He's a skilled archer and he develops into a symbol of resistance. There is no known source material for Robin Hood. Rather, it was a story that evolved and changed over the centuries. Some versions of the story depict him as a man from humble origins and others as someone who grew up with wealth but saw the injustices of the world and decided to do something about it.
Speaker 2:Batman.
Speaker 1:I'm going to quote from the Historycom article. Academics, meanwhile, have combed the historical record for evidence of a real Robin Hood. English legal records suggest that as early as the 13th century, r-o-b-e-h-o-d or R-A-B-U-N-H-O-D and other variations had become common epithets for criminals. But what had inspired these nicknames? A fictional tale, an infamous bandit or an amalgamation of both? The first literary references to Robin Hood appear in a series of 14th and 15th century ballads about a violent yeoman who lived in Sherwood Forest with his men and frequently clashed with the sheriff of Nottingham.
Speaker 2:Is Sherwood Forest a real place?
Speaker 1:Yeah, actually it is, which is part of why there's rumors that maybe there is a real Robin Hood of history and not just kind of this literary reference. But yes, it was actually the royal hunting ground in the province of Nottingham. Wow, back to the quote here. Rather than a peasant knight or fallen noble, as in later versions, the protagonist of these medieval stories is a commoner. Little John and Will Scarlet are part of Robin's merry crew, meaning at the time an outlaws gang. But Marion Friar Tuck and Alan Adele would not enter the legend until later, possibly as part of the May Day rituals, which you guys know is one of my favorite topics. But ending quote there, alan, did you grow up watching the Robin Hood animated movie?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:But you have an awareness of Robin Hood, right? Yes, and where do you think that came from?
Speaker 2:From my eighth grade play Robin Hood.
Speaker 1:Who did you play?
Speaker 2:King.
Speaker 1:Richard Wow, so you were barely in the play.
Speaker 2:Who's the prince? Who's the lion? In the movie there's Prince, somebody who's like a total dickhead. So King Richard is pulled away on the Crusades and while he's gone, the prince and the sheriff go full greed happy and start robbing the people blind. I see I maybe had seen the movie as a very young child, but you know it was not part of my rotation of simply Aladdin, hercules and Lion King.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ok, cool, that makes a lot of sense. I would watch the movie from time to time, the animated tale, and I think probably it was also a story that my dad read to us from some kind of a children's book. Sun Wukong is also known as the Monkey King hailing from China. Sun Wukong is one of the main characters in the infamous text which we've referenced so many times on this podcast, journey to the West, a novel from the 16th century. We should one of us should read it at some point.
Speaker 2:I read it like two years ago.
Speaker 1:Oh, did you like it?
Speaker 2:Yes, I did. It was different than I was expecting, so a lot of the stories have been heavily influenced by Journey to the West. I think the most famous that most people are familiar with would be Dragonball Z.
Speaker 1:I knew you were going to find a way to work Dragonball Z so Dragonball.
Speaker 2:the main protagonist is almost a carbon copy of the Monkey King. Goku rides around on a flying Nimbus, very similar to how Sumo Kong travels around. He has a monkey tail and, in fact, he turns into a gigantic monkey during the full moon.
Speaker 1:What's a nimbus? The cloud.
Speaker 2:He literally rides around on a cloud that's cool On a sentient cloud, which is how Sun Wukong gets around.
Speaker 1:The character of Sun Wukong has lived on into the modern era, but Sun Wukong is based on a real historic story, a monk from the year 629. So did you know that that he's actually based on a real, living monk from history?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Oh, well, maybe someone didn't.
Speaker 2:That's the fun thing. So every time you're reading mythology that originates in a different country. So you know, journey to the West originated in China, so it was clearly not written in English. Every so often they're going to come out with a new translation and honestly, I really love when historical texts get new translations. It's so ripe for opportunity to modernize the language and some of the best things that have made it to America from foreign countries are when they are interpreted for intention rather than accuracy. So diverging for a moment.
Speaker 2:An excellent example of this the first Metal Gear Solid game came out in 1998. It was on the PlayStation 1 and it made a massive, massive impact on just like anyone who was playing games at the time, because the storytelling was kind of unprecedented with its complexity. It was like playing a movie and it was so good, so wonderful. The following games were good, but they never really hit the same magic. The key difference was that the original game, which was in Japanese, the English translation was done with intention rather than accuracy. Once the creator of the series, hideo Kojima, learned that the translator had taken some liberties, he flipped out, said no, no, no, you're messing with my work. And said you have to translate exactly verbatim, and so that's why in all future games after that in the franchise you end up with some very awkward stale moments, because it just makes no sense fascinating so journey to the west came out.
Speaker 2:There was another translation that came out, I think in like 2022 or something, and it was updated with, like a modern tongue in mind. So because this character is like, he's like this young, rambunctious, chaotic guy and he should kind of like speak as, so they just like brought this kind of energy to the translation, which just made it for such a fun read, because these classics are wonderful, but anyone who's read something that is hundreds of years old in its original language or the original translation, it's oftentimes hard to get through. Looking back at the Iliad, the Iliad is a wonderful tale of adventure, but it was originally written in ancient Greek and it's an epic poem. When you look at the original translations, it's good, but also it's like not really a page turner for modern audiences. But then you get to stephen fry, who did his own translation of the iliad and translated for intention and indeed took some liberties, but he updated it for modern audiences and now it's so fun.
Speaker 1:Do you think English classes across the country are allowing the Stephen Fry version?
Speaker 2:Honestly they should, because I think the most important thing is to get kids excited about reading. There's so much incredible work out there that if you turn kids off early and be like you know what Books suck it's a chore Then you are doing a massive disservice.
Speaker 1:I wholeheartedly agree. But let's circle back here to Sun Wukong and the monk that he is based off of. So again, he's based off of a real life monk from the year 1629. He's based off of a real life monk from the year 1629. The monk went on a 16 year journey traveling over 10,000 miles in search of holy texts in India. So he traveled from China to India over 10,000 miles on foot, presumably.
Speaker 1:No on a cloud the monk's story of his travels, known as Records of the Western Region. So that's like his diary served as the basis for Journey to the West. Obviously, we see the through line there. The fictionalized version of the story centers around a monk, so this is Journey to the West. Who?
Speaker 1:is accompanied by three helpers, one of them being a monkey called Sun Wukong. It's likely that Sun Wukong was inspired by other legends in local lore, but why are we talking about him, you might ask? Because the monkey has supernatural abilities. Quoting from the national geographic article by parissa digangi, quote wait, that's someone we've talked about before I know, yeah, we've used her articles before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, quote soon. Woo Kong possesses extraordinary powers, among them 72 transformations, which enable him to shapeshift. Space is no obstacle for him, and one story recounts how he travels thousands of miles with a single somersault. Journey to the West also exalts Soon-Woo Kong's martial skills, aided by his strength, staff and ability to fly. Soon Wukong embodies many of the characteristics people associate with monkeys, including mischievousness. As a trickster figure, he shares attributes with other fixtures of myth and legend, such as Loki, raynard and Brer Rabbit. One of these is not like the other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that was a good trick, don't get me wrong, but I don't know, it's really not on the same level.
Speaker 1:We're swinging in a different ballpark.
Speaker 2:Why did you bring Briar Rabid into this?
Speaker 1:This is a quote.
Speaker 2:Oh by.
Speaker 1:Parisa Daganji.
Speaker 2:Oh, who we trust?
Speaker 1:Who we trust yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, carry on. Continuing the yeah, but then he gets more abilities.
Speaker 1:So these are just examples right of folk heroes, in a way, and local legends of mythical beings that I think to some extent pave the way for superheroes that are going to be introduced much, much later. But I think this sort of gets people into a place where they're ready to kind of accept the idea of a folk hero that's wearing a costume right, or someone with supernatural powers.
Speaker 2:I'm pulling this from the foreword in the translation I read of Journey to the West. But Sun Wukong is attributed as the world's first superhero, which I think that's so, so fun, because first off, he's just a monkey. He's just a monkey.
Speaker 1:He's a monkey with supernatural powers, though.
Speaker 2:But then he gains all of these abilities as he goes.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is so cool it is cool and it's always for weird, kind of like self-serving reasons that he kind of does these things. But he's a monkey Like you can attribute everything he does to the fact that he's just a fucking monkey. But then he gains these abilities and then he kind of fights the forces of evil. He's pretty cool, he is cool.
Speaker 1:So we're next going to pivot. We're going to jump ahead again in history and we're going to pivot to another. Jump ahead again in history and we're going to pivot to another. This is not a folk hero, but another figure that, I would say again, sort of paved the way for the literary superhero that's going to follow soon after. I'm going to also thank my mom, April Branker, for research help on this section. She pulled tons of firsthand articles from the time when this was happening and I'm going to have a video on all of our social channels that show you pictures of firsthand articles from the time when this was happening. And I'm going to have a video on all of our social channels that show you pictures of those articles, because I'm really, really fascinated with this piece of history.
Speaker 2:All right, so let's talk about the Incredible Hulk.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about Spring-Heeled Jack, the Incredible Hulk some say of Victorian England. See how our nerd circles just don't really match up.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:So jumping ahead again in history. One of my favorite figures of all time, spring-heeled Jack, is a being from the Victorian era from English folklore, but a pretty modern one. So Jack brings us a bit closer to our theme today because he is a bit spooky. But even before reports of Spring-Heeled Jack swept the city, it was commonplace for reports of ghost sightings in London. The lore was that pale entities would stalk and attack anyone walking home alone at night, and we've learned this researching many different pieces of folklore. La Llorona, for instance, comes to mind. Right To me it sounds a little bit like parents being like don't walk home alone at night because that the ghost of Nottingham will get you, or whatever.
Speaker 2:Whatever they're called the ghost of Nottingham.
Speaker 1:You know and you get it right. That's something like parents might say to caution their kids into good behavior. From 1803 to 1804, sightings of the Hammersmith ghost were reported on the western side of the city. There was also a Southampton ghost, both taking their name from their neighborhoods of origin.
Speaker 2:Was there a summer house ghost and a winter house ghost?
Speaker 1:We'll have to check with the Hamptons crowd for that. Spring-heeled Jack was a folk figure that scared locals. Some thought he was a demonic fire-breathing man. Others believed him to be an incredibly agile human who could jump strangely high. In 1837, residents of a London neighborhood started to report strange encounters and incidents with a mysterious and terrifying man.
Speaker 2:There was a man that had a vertical leap of over two feet.
Speaker 1:All right, alan, all right. Jack seemed to have an affinity for women and some mild trigger warning here. Most of his attacks and incidents surrounded women and also sometimes felt a bit inappropriate in nature. I'll just say that. And the very first sighting attributed to jack happened in october of 1837, which was reported by a woman working as a servant named mary stevens. She was walking on lavender hill after visiting her parents in battersea. As she walked through clapham common, a terrifying shadowy figure leapt out in front of her. And again, quick little warning here the man held her arms and kissed her while he ripped at her clothing. She described his hands as quote cold and clammy, as those of a corpse end. Quote.
Speaker 2:How does she know what a corpse's hands feel like?
Speaker 1:Maybe she's a mortician.
Speaker 2:Oh, good point.
Speaker 1:After screaming, the man fled the scene. A search ensued, but he couldn't be found. The next day, a figure leapt out in front of a traveling carriage, causing a crash. I also just think in Victorian England people probably were a little bit more comfortable with death than we are. Like if somebody died, they died in the house, versus always bringing them to, like an elder care or a funeral home. Right like you probably had more exposure to dead bodies.
Speaker 1:no, you just died in the street right, so either way walk out and, you know, die of diphtheria they're around, you know it was a tough time so she probably knew what a corpse felt like true, yeah, she probably had to push them aside to get up all the time, oh the time, yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:So Victorian times are what century 1800? No 70s.
Speaker 1:What we're talking about right now is the mid-1800s.
Speaker 2:Gotcha yeah, lots of diphtheria.
Speaker 1:Sometimes he was reported to ring a doorbell and use his claws to shred the clothing of the person who came to the door.
Speaker 2:Oh, come on.
Speaker 1:Other times it was reported that Jack would attack people as they walked along the street. Is Jack?
Speaker 2:a cat, because this sounds very much like just the behavior of a cat.
Speaker 1:That's true. Reports around this time also claimed that the assailant presented as a ghost or a bear, in addition to a man and a devil. Additional reports claimed the man to be wearing red shoes or armor. One theory holds that a group of fancy men took to the streets on a bet and caused chaos, and similar theories were that, like a group of college students maybe had all kind of band together, especially once the hoax because this was being reported in newspapers. It was a big thing that people were actually reporting all the time. It was causing a ton of fear in communities and so you know?
Speaker 2:sorry, you just glanced over the fact of a group of fancy men they were fancy men.
Speaker 1:There's nothing more to say. I think you can picture what I'm saying. They were dressed fancy and their sunday best they had custom suits, I imagine.
Speaker 2:Okay, they looks great well, back then all suits were custom good point. So what makes them more fancy than others?
Speaker 1:they're richer. Maybe they're wearing jewelry, maybe Maybe a top hat.
Speaker 2:I have top hats.
Speaker 1:It's all speculation.
Speaker 2:We're just slinging misinformation now.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what they're used to. Listening to this podcast. That's true. The press generally remains skeptical of the reports. In January of 1838, john Cowan, the Lord Mayor of London, made a public statement. He tried to reinforce the theory that the attacks were due to a band of wealthy men causing chaos, or fancy men. Eventually, the figure came to be known as Spring-Heeled Jack due to his supernatural ability to leap.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry. Are there roving bands of fancy men trying to stop Spring-Heeled Jack?
Speaker 1:No, the theory is that they were maybe the ones who got a little too drunk one night and caused some chaos. And people misinterpreted that as this like scary, demonic guy.
Speaker 2:So there's like a bunch of fancy dressed rich guys and they're like oh, Reginald, give me a boost, and then they just throw him into the street. Yeah, and they're just like ha ha.
Speaker 1:And they're like oh, there's a newspaper article about it, let's keep going. Let me slice your dress with my scissors. In 1838, a man rang the doorbell of jane alsop. He was yelling that spring-heeled jack had been caught and they needed her help. Jane delivered a glowing candle to the man in the street outside of her home, but he rewarded her by blowing blue flames into her face and shredding her clothes and scratching her with metal claws. What a dickhead. Yeah well, he's a fancy man. Jane was unable to get away until her sister came to her rescue. She would later describe the man as having red, fireball-like eyes, wearing a tight white outfit and a helmet. This account only fueled the rumors that jack was indeed a devil just a quick pause here.
Speaker 2:Things are very different in different parts of the world. On one side of the planet, we have a monkey who's gonna be like you know what? I'm gonna steal peaches from the gods. And on the other is like I am gonna dress up in fancy clothes and I'm going to rip this girl's dress and run away.
Speaker 1:Yep, all kinds of stuff going on. All kinds of meaning you can pull from that. A few days later, a woman named Lucy Sales was walking with her sister in a different London neighborhood when a man jumped in front of the pair. Again, he was described as breathing blue flames. This time, jack's dragon breath caused the woman to have a seizure-like fit. Both of the attacks on Lucy and Jane happened closer to London's city center than the others, which mostly took place in the suburbs. Sightings of Spring-Heeled Jack lasted until 1904, so this started in 1837 and lasted until 1904. Many believe the last sighting happened in Liverpool. And again, this is like a little bit silly. But it's this figure right, this real person in real life. And whatever it was whether it was a bunch of different drunk guys causing chaos or one guy causing a hoax- or just one drunk guy, one really rich drunk guy causing crazy chaos.
Speaker 1:Could be very similar to Batman in that way, but you can see right, people believed in his supernatural ability to jump and that part is a bit silly and attack and it just again. It's like cementing this belief in a human that has extra powers.
Speaker 2:Occam's razor right. The simplest explanation is usually the one and so like. Okay, so a guy's really good at just like popping out, Someone's good at throwing him, or he's good at just jumping in front of people. I have a hard time believing that there is someone with supernatural abilities and this is what he chooses to do with it.
Speaker 1:The point isn't that you have to believe in this hundreds of years later. The point is that at this time in Victorian London people did, and it's setting the scene for the pop culture and literature that will follow.
Speaker 2:In Victorian London, the only thing that people were concerned with is who's fucking who?
Speaker 1:That is not entirely true, but it was a big part of life. All right, Ellen, I know that you're dying to know. Let's about the bald knobbers jumping over to the united states around the same time period. The bald knobbers were a group of vigilantes that hailed from the ozark region of missouri.
Speaker 2:That's right the only thing that I'm familiar with the ozark region is the ozark howler what's the ozark howler alan? Is it?
Speaker 1:because you just played a cryptid game last night uh-huhhuh, and it's a cryptid. Tell us about it.
Speaker 2:He kind of makes a whale, that kind of paralyzes people and then he kind of mauls on them. He's got what? Then he mauls them like a bear. He mauls them like a bear, yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, this kind of sounds like Spring-Heeled.
Speaker 2:Jack, he's nothing like Spring-Heel. Jack breathes fire and he jumps around and he shreds people with his claws. No, he shreds their clothes.
Speaker 1:Well, it's because he never got.
Speaker 2:He's like a very angry embroidery machine.
Speaker 1:Okay, I don't know that. He's an embroidery machine, he's a very angry seamstress.
Speaker 2:Well, he's a very bad one.
Speaker 1:Maybe conspiracy theory? He's like a tailor or a seamstress who wants more business because people need to bring their clothes for repair.
Speaker 2:Honestly, he sounds like a bouncy version of Edward Scissorhands.
Speaker 1:So the reason I'm talking about this group of vigilantes is because they became known for their costumes. The bald knobbers would wear black horned hoods with the white outline of a face painted on top of it.
Speaker 2:It's cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really freaky when you look at it.
Speaker 2:Are there actual photographs of this?
Speaker 1:There's one that I found all posted on social media. That's cool. The name came from the Bald Knob summits of the Ozark Mountains. The Bald Knobbers had mostly sided with the Union during the Civil War and their rival gang, the Anti-Bald Knobbers I'm not making that up had mostly sided with the Confederacy.
Speaker 2:If only groups were so transparent with sides.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it would be much more clear on people's intentions.
Speaker 2:I would appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Similar to Robin Hood, the Knobbers had started as a group dedicated to opposing corruption in government, helping those in need and aiding local law enforcement.
Speaker 2:So these are just vigilantes that take the law. They're basically deputizing themselves.
Speaker 1:Which is certainly sometimes problematic. But that's their history, and I'm talking about them because I think it's important to understand the historical context of things. But that's something that was happening maybe a little bit later in time than we realize and could have a direct influence on some themes that we see in a lot of very classic superhero formats.
Speaker 2:Right, so vigilantes are? It's such a weird term because it really is dependent on what side of history you're on. If you come out on top, then great, you are, yeah, a vigilante for justice.
Speaker 1:If you come out on the wrong side of history, then you're just a terrorist I think, as we've learned in these past years in the united states, like being on the right or wrong side of history is subjective to what you believe in 100 and so even in batman films, right, sorry that I keep using this as an example, it's what I know.
Speaker 1:you typically, especially in modern Batman films, have people that are very anti-Batman. You have people that are pro-Batman and people that are anti-Batman, and to me, I think that is the very essence of a vigilante.
Speaker 2:Sure, using Batman as the example. It's interesting because generally the police force is massively pro-batman, because in the batman universe jim gordon and most of the actual beat cops are very pro-batman because they make their jobs doable. You know he is a super cop effectively yeah while simultaneously not stealing their thunder.
Speaker 2:the only people that are like anti-batman are the politicians or the people that kind of like come in as like the special cop unit to try to clean up the force or whatever, and usually they are some kind of foil for corruption. You know, it's always like a tricky situation.
Speaker 1:Certainly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, batman is breaking the law. There's no two ways about that.
Speaker 1:Breaking the law.
Speaker 2:Excellent Judas Priest callback.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:But yeah, he is breaking the law. So you know, where do you officially draw the line of someone who is working for the greater good versus someone that is just a criminal?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Please answer.
Speaker 1:I'm always for vigilante justice, I gotta say it is pretty fun.
Speaker 2:I mean, how many times throughout history before we lived in, I mean we live in a very urban environment that is effectively a police state, you know. But previously how many times were like small towns would just like call up the boys to make a posse to root out that one guy who you know might have like beaten up that girl.
Speaker 1:Well, I will also say one of the most prevalent examples of this, which I'm not even getting into right now, is cowboy culture of the West and like Western films and that, again and again, is this exact storyline right? And so, yeah, certainly, 100%. It's something that and it's important to mention, even if we're not going to go into it because Westerns are so prevalent in the United States. And so when you think about superheroes and what came before, Westerns did right and people understand some of these plot lines not that people wouldn't, but you could sort of see how they kind of all these different like literary references and historic references melded together to create modern superheroes.
Speaker 2:So what's kind of fun is like? In the DC universe they have Jonah Hex, who is the cowboy superhero straight up out of the 1800s, and the only time he kind of comes into play is either in his own comic or when superheroes happen to time travel back to the Wild West. And he is just a cowboy and he has like a scar on half his face. He kind of looks like Two-Face. He doesn't have any abilities, he's just a cowboy, but he always, like, takes justice in his own hand.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that still makes him on caliber with the rest of the Justice League. Interesting, I didn't realize that. And that still makes him on caliber with the rest of the Justice League.
Speaker 1:Interesting. I didn't realize that there's so many examples of these mythical heroes from antiquity that obviously had supernatural powers and obviously have so many connections to a modern day superhero, and so I think part of that also tells me that there's always a need for this sort of content. And some other names that come to mind you have Atlanta, who is known for her extreme accuracy. You have Achilles, who is the warrior of all men, and then you have Thialzi from Norse mythology, whose speed rivaled that of the gods. So there's just so many examples that we could go into and talk about and explore, and perhaps if you follow us on social media and check out our website, you may be delighted to find some more exploration there. But I would love to kind of pivot and start talking about this was one of the coolest parts of the research for me the very first examples of superheroes in the world right as we know them today, modern superheroes, which started in comics and newspapers.
Speaker 1:A comic called Hugo Hercules at that time pronounced Hercules or the Boy Wonder is seen as the earliest superhero comic. It was first released on September 7th 1902. It was a newspaper comic in the Chicago Tribune. The comic was written by Wilhelm Heinrich Detlev-Korner. It ran for only five months, concluding on January 11, 1903. Shout out, jess. All in all, there were 17 strips. The character of Hugo Hercules was a jolly man with superhero strength. He would help out locals around town as he stumbled upon people who were in trouble, and he was strong enough to lift an elephant or a car, depending on whatever the situation called for.
Speaker 2:Those are his two abilities. He could lift a car or an elephant.
Speaker 1:No, he could just lift heavy, heavy things.
Speaker 2:And those are two examples how often did he encounter having to lift an elephant.
Speaker 1:I think probably once, though I would have loved to say that the earliest example of a superhero was a dark anti-hero, but he truly was just a good, helpful fella. Another very early example of a superhero is the Scarlet Pimpernel.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry. What is a Pimpernel?
Speaker 1:Pimpernel is a plant.
Speaker 2:Here's a picture. Okay, so he's like the red ficus.
Speaker 1:That's right, very good example. It premiered on October 15th 1903. The Scarlet Pimpernel was originally created as a play co-written by Baroness Amuska Orksy and her husband Montague Barstow, which premiered in London in 1903.
Speaker 2:Wait, she was a baroness and her husband had no title.
Speaker 1:Maybe he was a baroness and her husband had no title. Maybe he was a baron, I don't know. Maybe I got lazy. Due to the play's success, orksy adapted it into a novel which was published in 1905. So the content of the Scarlet Pimpernel tells the story of a character named Sir Percy Blankney, who is this very highfalutin guy from English society, and he leads this double life as the Scarlet Pimpernel, which is similar to, again, batman and many other superheroes. This is set during the French Revolution's reign of terror, okay, and so he sort of becomes this master of disguise and a hero right in his own own right, a vigilante like we talked about, and he rescues french aristocrats from the guillotine and he gets them back to safety.
Speaker 2:So he's maybe a little bit um what a fucking yeah against the people yeah, well, what is even the word for that?
Speaker 1:Scab.
Speaker 2:Scab, yeah, fucking scab, fuck that guy.
Speaker 1:Fascinating how the tables have turned right. That seems so outside of the genre now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you rarely encounter a superhero. That's just like. You know what I'm just here for?
Speaker 1:the 1%. By the 1930s, superheroes started to emerge that I would say bear a closer resemblance to how we think of them today. Doc Savage, a folk hero with no supernatural powers, again a la Batman, started to grace the pages of comic books in 1933.
Speaker 2:What did Doc Savage do? He said he had no superpowers. That's right.
Speaker 1:So his real name I find this hilarious was Clark Savage Jr.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:You would think like Doc Savage is like oh, he's nicknamed that because he's so savage. But it's just that his last name was Savage and he's a junior. He's a scientist, a detective, a warrior. He likes to write wrongs this is a quote writes wrongs and punishes evildoers.
Speaker 2:He likes to write.
Speaker 1:He likes to write poetry. No, he's just like a hero type who Big into fanfic. If you see a picture of him he's a little bit like maybe an Indiana Jones or James Bond type.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:He's a little sexy. The Shadow was created in 1931, so two years before Doc Savage.
Speaker 2:Oh sure, the Shadow. Yeah, oh, you're familiar. I mean the Shadow, that's a very famous hero. So besides having like an amazing comic run, the Shadow was redone as a movie in the 90s, I believe.
Speaker 1:Well, even before that, it actually originated as a mysterious radio host. The Shadow evolved into a comic book character eventually, but in 1930, the character debuted as the host of an actual radio show. Oh sure, because they always signed off like only the Shadow knows, and some episodes included narration from Orson Welles.
Speaker 2:Gotcha so fun. Shadow slash, batman adjacent trivia fact. So fast forward to 2000. Whatever, sam Raimi was looking to make a superhero movie before Spider-Man.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:Because this was before he got the license to Spider-Man and he was trying to make a Batman movie and he couldn't get the license to Batman. So instead he tried to get the license to the Shadow, and similarly he could not get the license to the shadow and similarly he could not get the license to that. So he instead had this whole script already written and then he just kind of redid it and made up his own superhero called dark man, who is an amalgamation of batman and the shadow, and so you can watch dark man. It's a very fun superhero movie, kind of like an antihero. Stars Liam Neeson, of all people, this guy who's like covered in bandages and fights crime. But yeah, it's a very weird kind of dystopian world. It's kind of fun.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love when you know so much about a thing that I just casually mentioned. Superman, often cited as the first true superhero, was released in 1938, the Human Torch in 1939, and Namor the Submariner in 1939 as well.
Speaker 2:I always pronounce it Submariner and I'm 90% sure it's pronounced Submariner. However, I said that word in front of your father and he said Submariner. He said it's pronounced Submariner, However, I said that word in front of your father.
Speaker 1:And he said Submariner.
Speaker 2:He said it is not Submariner, because that is a below average Mariner. It is pronounced Submariner and I said okay.
Speaker 1:We'll have to take his word for it. He would know.
Speaker 2:He would. Yeah, Namor is very cool.
Speaker 1:He was Marvel's answer to aquaman well, no, he came out in 1939 what he came out before aquaman yeah, he came out the same year as superman I can't believe that namor came out before aquaman, who? Came out in 1941.
Speaker 2:That's nuts.
Speaker 1:Yep, the more you know.
Speaker 2:Huh, namor is kind of cool. He is definitely a slept on hero. He's in most comics that involve the Justice League Sorry, that involve, like, the, the pantheon of DC heroes or of Marvel heroes. Excuse me, because he has like such a big place of, like you know, being Lord of the Seas and everything. He's just Marvel's version of Aquaman, but he came first. I had no idea.
Speaker 1:It's more accurate to say that Aquaman is DC's version of Namor.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes sure.
Speaker 1:In 1940, the two first female superheroes that I could find. If I'm wrong, that's fine, you can tell me, but the first two that I could locate were created. One was Fantomah. She was created by Fletcher Hanks, who is also known for creating the character Stardust. The super wizard Fantomah could fly, transfigure objects into other things, levitate objects and, most powerfully, in my opinion, force humans to mutate into different forms.
Speaker 2:So she has polymorph.
Speaker 1:That's what I yes exactly, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:What is the delineation between wizard and super wizard?
Speaker 1:Well, okay, so Stardust the super wizard is a different character that I mentioned because I read that and I was like what the fuck is that he's a guy. But I am actually. I've prepared a little explainer on him.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank God.
Speaker 1:Stardust, the Super Wizard, is a super smart detective type who is incredibly strong and good in combat, but also in control of planetary forces and outer space.
Speaker 2:In control of outer space.
Speaker 1:In control of space.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's a super wizard. So, honestly, he's in his weakest form on Earth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he's something for us all to kind of think about as we fall asleep.
Speaker 2:So here he's like look, watch me do some card tricks.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile outside he's like let me just move this black hole around right, no, yeah, holy fuck, he can destroy civilizations but it doesn't stop there, alan, because the other female character right, so besides fantoma is theician from Mars by Centaur Comics, actually predates Fantoma as the first female superheroine by two months. Magician from Mars, or Jane 6EM35, has a human mother from Earth and a father from Mars, where she was born. Classic Jane developed special powers because she was exposed to cathode rays as a child, not because of her alien father, which I thought was interesting. The lore is that she has the ability to use 100% of her brain, which allows her to use telekinesis, wield superhuman strength, nullify gravity, transform objects, cast illusions and, you know, be immortal.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love this trope, just the whole like oh yeah, everyone uses 10% of their brain, except this one superhuman that uses 100%.
Speaker 1:The magician from Mars?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know obviously, misnomer, we don't actually use 10% of our brain.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:It's just typically 10% of your brain is active at one point. Like you know, different points of your brain do different things, right? I also love that she got her powers from cathode rays. You know where you too can be exposed to cathode rays? Tell us Any non-flat screen TV. So those are called CRT televisions. The CRT stands for cathode ray tube. So if you just happen to sit too close to a TV growing up, apparently you too are a super wizard.
Speaker 1:Oh no, that's a different character, but very cool, I think, one of our most fun topics in a long time, and I like to say fantoma.
Speaker 2:I think it's fantoma.
Speaker 1:Maybe, but I've recorded a whole social video where I say fantoma.
Speaker 1:So we're just really leaning into it. Anyway, we're gonna put a pin in the convo right here, because we're gonna come back next time and pick up. There's still some to be said about the iconic superheroes, right, we're gonna get into the genesis of superman, we're gonna get into spider-man, we're gonna get into batman and then we're gonna get into the horror of superheroes, which is what we're leading up to. Right. That's the big climax, the big, what's it called? It's like a big boss, I guess, a big supervillain, yeah, great, anyway. So I'm glad I'm the only one here enjoying this, but I think you're looking for archvillain.
Speaker 1:Ah, archvillain, yes, so that will be the big sort of or, dare I say, nemesis. I have many of those too.
Speaker 2:Which is another Greek mythology illusion.
Speaker 1:What do you mean?
Speaker 2:Nemesis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, tell us what you mean.
Speaker 2:Nemesis was the Greek goddess of indignation and misdeeds.
Speaker 1:I love her, all right. Well, anyway, the point is we're going to put a pin in this right now. Lots more to say we're going to pick it up next time Really deep diving into Superman, and pick it up next time really deep diving into superman, and we're gonna go from there. Thank you guys so much as always for being here. If you haven't checked out a really fun little short audio drama from last episode, please do. It was really really fun to put together and I hope you guys enjoyed it as an official spooky kickoff to summer and yeah, until then, please read all comics, um, especially the spooky ones.
Speaker 2:I have done a deep dive into everything involved, anything horror comic related and while I am by no means an expert on the subject, I've at least read the ones that I thought sounded very fun.
Speaker 1:There you go, and I have had such a blast.
Speaker 2:It's probably one of the most slept on genres that I would highly recommend for anybody who just enjoys spooky things and also just like really cool storytelling.
Speaker 1:Well, if someone's going to go away and read one superhero horror comic, what do you suggest? One Ask to be one.
Speaker 2:If I have to pick just one, I'm going to go with my absolute favorite, which would be the Immortal Hulk.
Speaker 1:I thought you were going to say Spawn.
Speaker 2:Nope, spawn is great. Spawn is absolutely wonderful, but it's far more of a time commitment and there's a lot of hills and valleys along the journey. Sure you know, not all of the content is equally amazing. I'm going to say Cloak and Dagger Interesting.
Speaker 1:Which is my favorite comic book run of all time.
Speaker 2:Cloak and Dagger is a lot of fun. I have the original four books Immortal Hulk not to be confused with the incredible hulk, it's very different. So immortal hulk is one is a comic run that actually wrapped fairly recently, is only 50 issues long the whole thing. So it's a. It's a start to finish yeah uh, and I really love being able to read something to completion well, since you gave two.
Speaker 1:Of course, we've alluded to this a few times, but one that holds a very special place in my heart is a limited run from Spider-Man called Spider-Man Reign, which is an alternate universe version of Spider-Man, and it's much, much darker than I think the Spider-Man that most people are aware of, but we will get to that more in the upcoming episode of this series. If you're going to go and kind of check some things out, those are our suggestions, as always. Thank you all so much for being here, stay super, stay safe and stay spooky. We'll talk to you soon. Bye.
