Lunatics Radio Hour
The history of horror and the horror of history.
Lunatics Radio Hour
Episode 167 - The Dark Lore Behind The Wizard of Oz: Part 2
Abby and Alex pick up where they left off last week, and talk through The Wiz and Wicked, in all of it's forms.
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Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Lunatics Radio Hour Podcast. My name is Abby Branker, and I am sitting here with my friend Alex Goldman.
SPEAKER_00:Hello, hello.
SPEAKER_02:And today we are continuing our conversation from last week all about the dark lore and history of the Wizard of Oz. But today we've sort of made it up into the timeline to talk about Wicked. Woo! Woo-hoo, here we are. And of course, we cite a lot of sources. They are all in last week's episode and all linked in the description of that episode. So if there's anything, you know, that you want to look into from anything that we brought up, all of the source material that I use during research is available in that episode. And I would also encourage you to listen to that episode before you listen to this one because we talk a lot about the production of The Wizard of Oz from 1939, the books by L. Frank Baum, and so much of kind of what led us to this moment. So before we get into Wicked, which is, of course, there's so much to say in the theatrical and cinema version. First, we want to talk about The Wiz, which is another musical version of The Wizard of Oz, and one that has, you know, as we've been saying about all of these, but has a very specific message in point. There's a movie version of The Wiz, right, which was directed by Sidney Lumay and came out in 1978, which was based on the 1975 play of the same name. The play was by William F. Brown, and again is, you know, based on the original novel, but of course has differences. The film version stars Diana Ross, Michael Jackson, Nipsey Russell, Ted Ross, among many, many others. Richard Pryor is in there.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah. That is a that is a stacked cast.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's an amazing movie. The Wiz musical keeps true to the book in that there's three witches. It's not Glinda who comes and visits them in Munchkin Land, it's the Wicked Witch of or it's the Good Witch of the South.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Who's out of Pearl in the in the Whiz musical. And then there's the Wicked Witch of the West, and then Glinda is the Good Witch of the North or South. I forget which direction she is. But she comes in at the end to get her home.
SPEAKER_03:Got it.
SPEAKER_00:I think she's the witch good witch of the south. Just like the book. Like whatever the whatever she is in the book. But that movie, that movie's very strange also. It sort of like captures actually return to Oz and the Whiz kind of with the Wiz movie, I should clarify. Yeah. Capture like a uneasiness about like when they first get to Oz. It's it's a little strange. But maybe like the biggest difference is they put Dorothy in New York City. Yeah. And so there's already sort of an urban backdrop as far as that goes. And that sort of carries through to the vision of Oz.
SPEAKER_02:Full transparency. I have never interacted with the Whiz. But so Dorothy, like Oz is New York City, or she starts off in New York City.
SPEAKER_00:She starts off in New York City and it's Thanksgiving or Christmas. It's one of the holidays, and and basically she's with her family, but she's sort of feeling feeling a longing um of not belonging with her family. But no, no, like the biggest the biggest difference is it's sort of setting the Wizard of Oz within the African American community. Yeah. It retells the story in such an amazing, thoughtful way. Yeah. I think is one of the first revisionist versions of the Wizard of Oz that sort of makes this huge impact. Right. There's a whole scene where the Wicked Witch of the West uh melts, they essentially free all of her minions who are working working for her, and there's a huge like musical number that is just so joyful. Um and let me tell you, the music of the whiz is is great. A lot of toe tappers.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And so just so everyone can picture, Diana Ross plays Dorothy, Lena Horn plays Glinda the Good, Michael Jackson's the Scarecrow. Michael Jackson is the scarecrow. Ted Ross is the lion, Nipsey Russell is the tin man, and Mabel King plays the Wicked Witch of the West, who was named Eveline, which is cute. Because this is before Alphabet, right? And uh Wiz uh Wicked. So that was her name.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that was right. That was her name. Yeah, exactly. So fun.
SPEAKER_02:So the movie was initially, it was very poorly received. It was did not get great press. It critics didn't like it, audience didn't didn't like it. It's since become a cult classic, and I think it's you know, as all of these kind of dark fantasy retellings, it found its niche, it found its people.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and I think the stage show was a huge success.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That everyone thought, oh, they're just gonna do that. I mean, talk we're talking about like people who are fans of the musical and then people who make the movie.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Who sometimes aren't aligned. Yes. Um, this was a big swing for the movie, I think, which it uh they they reset they reset some of the scenes and they um I think they're they swap out a song or two, but um, it is very different in tone from the whiz, the whiz stage production.
SPEAKER_02:Right. And speaking of the stage production, in 2015, NBC produced The Wiz Live, which was a live like television stream of the Wiz, in which Neo played the Tin Man and Mary J. Blige played Evelyn or the Wicked Witch of the West. Queen Latifah was the whiz. And that I think is something that's going to be top of my list to watch after this.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, please do. It's wonderful. We're talking about universal themes. Like The Wiz is the Wizard of Oz. Just like Wicked, it's like an added emotional depth. Breath. You've probably heard the big song from The Wiz, right? Like when she sings home, where like it's called Home.
SPEAKER_02:I'm sure that I have.
SPEAKER_00:It is it's like this amazing iconic song. And it it comes at the end. It comes at the end of the story. So she's like saying goodbye to all the friends that she makes, and she's about going home and about Yeah, it's it's just there's a lot more like depth to to like all the characters. Well, let alone Diana Ross is fully like 25. Yeah or like 30. Right. I mean, this is in the 70s, right? She's like 30.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. So fun.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I would rec I'm I feel like you would have a good time watching the Wiz movie. Great.
SPEAKER_02:I will.
SPEAKER_00:It's so strange, but like it is. And Diana Ross is a little annoying, but like she's just like she cannot act at all. Yeah. And I find her singing annoying.
SPEAKER_02:Like she's Oh, hot take.
SPEAKER_00:Like, she's not like a great singer. Right. Like, she's great at doing what she does. Yeah. Right? Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:She's a great performer.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and she kind of like does a little soft thing. Like when she's singing mu talk about like learning how to sing musical theater again.
SPEAKER_02:Like it's a different thing.
SPEAKER_00:You kind of have to wail in the whiz. Like you have to be able to like really frickin' sing your face off. And she like can't. You know, like she's very she has a nice voice.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You're just like, oh, I wish someone was really like singing this.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Like Jennifer Hudson.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, you're talking like Queen Latifah. Right. Mary J. Blige. Right. You're like, those are people who can like really give it to us. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. That's just how I feel.
SPEAKER_02:But so Alex, I think this will be a fun fact that you'd be interested in. Do you know where the whiz was filmed?
SPEAKER_00:I don't.
SPEAKER_02:The Wiz was filmed in Astoria Studios. In Queens, New York. Yep.
SPEAKER_00:I guess that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02:And some um and like the New York State Pavilion, which is from the World's Fair in Queens, but you know, they used a bunch of different New York City, you know, areas for like external stuff. But yeah, it was filmed in um in Astoria Studios.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it is a love letter to New York City after you know, when when you take a step back and you look at where everything is, it's pretty cool that it's you know New York City.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So Quincy Jones also worked on this movie as sort of a musical, you know, consultant and just made sure he had eyes on things. He later came out and said he didn't at first didn't really want to work on this, but he did it as a favor to the director who was a friend.
SPEAKER_00:He's like, uh, don't tie me to this, please.
SPEAKER_02:But it was the first time he ever worked with Michael Jackson, and then he would go on to produce three of his albums later, including Thriller.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, cool.
SPEAKER_02:Speaking of horror and horrifying people.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:In 1995, Wicked, The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West, was published. The novel was written by Gregory Maguire and famously tells the story of the Wizard of Oz through the lens of Alphabet, The Wicked Witch of the West. Maguire originally intended Wicked to be an allegory and political commentary, and boy is it. The book explores themes of fascism, racism, and propaganda. And again, I think it's we talked about this a little bit last week, but I just feel like it's incredibly poignant and well-timed that these movies are coming out now and there's this new energy around Wicked when it feels so blatantly similar. You know, some of the the points and messages of the book feel so relevant. Relevant. Yes, exactly. Relevant to this moment.
SPEAKER_00:I know it goes to show that even when he was writing it in the 90s, it felt it must have felt pretty pretty topical then. Um and unfortunately, some of those themes are still prevalent if if not even more so for us on our day-to-day. So I mean, the fact that it's still relevant certainly feels like it's hitting home.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I mean, just to be incredibly blatant about it, you have, you know, in Wicked, you have a s a separate group of beings, in that case animals, that are being abducted and removed and dissolved from society. And again, it just feels like incredibly relevant.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, othered.
SPEAKER_02:Othered, exactly. Wicked also calls into question how we understand good and evil, and to your point last week, the middle ground between those two things. And that all of us can have many different versions and many different things to learn. Personally, I think Wicked is a brilliant work of fiction. It takes a story that so many people know and love and totally flips it on its head. And by doing so, Maguire encourages us to take a deeper look, to be weary of trusting authority blindly and to not take things at face value. I actually think it's incredible to take, like when like the first time I experienced Wicked when I read the book, or when you see the play for the first time, or even when people are, you know, maybe about to see the movie for the or saw part one and they're about to see part two. I remember the feeling of being like, oh, for my whole life, and not that it was a big part of my life, but for my whole life, I thought of this story this way. And now I'm thinking of the story in a different way, and how powerful that felt to me at the time, you know, the first encounter you had with something that like flipped this story that you know and love so well on its head, and it follows all of the canon and it does so still, right?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, absolutely. Do do you know what do you know what's weird and something that we talk about now is there are kids who grow up and the first thing they learn is wicked. Right. And they have to go back and watch the Wizard of Oz and sort of they they're learning it in backwards order. And it doesn't have yeah, it has a totally different it has a totally different, right, like uh impact on them. Right. But that that's something that that is that's pretty uh interesting. Yeah. You know, because I had the same, the same reaction as you, right? It's something that was so, you know, pervasive in our lives. It's of course we're gonna watch the Wizard of Oz movie, and then all of a sudden, boom, here's something where you have to think about it from a different perspective, and it's sort of, you know, like life-changing.
SPEAKER_02:It it is. It's really like it really is, and not to put too much, you know, power onto a piece of media or whatever, but it really does, and I think it kind of makes you think, it made me think at the time, and which is the point, but like, oh, right, like we shouldn't always assume, and I think that's kind of the takeaway from Wicked at the end, which we'll talk about at the end of this episode. But you know, he he did the like Wicked, obviously, this is an obvious statement, but it relies on the Wizard of Oz. If the Wizard of Oz wasn't, if it's if whatever the source material was wasn't something that was kind of universally understood in a basic way, it the Wicked doesn't make sense. It you know, it relies on the power of this thing to do it. And yeah, I just think it's so the impact of it is so much more than most other works of fiction because of that. And typically I think I'd I'd have a reaction of like, oh, this new version of this thing, like that's cheating, but it's not. It it's meant to flip your world upside down.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, right, and it gets deeper, it gets deeper than even the source material.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. I've cried a lot at productions of Wicked. Yeah, right. Especially the movie. McGuire would go on to write three more sequels to the Wicked series, so there are four books total: Son of a Witch in 2005, A Lion Among Men in 2008, and Out of Oz in 2011.
SPEAKER_00:And I I think there's now spin-off books from some of those as well. Oh wow. Which I I can't even say what the titles are, but my mom reads them. Shout out mom. She reads them.
SPEAKER_02:And you've read Son of a Witch?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Yep, I've read Son of a Witch. Um, and uh it's it's difficult. I loved Wicked.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And period. Yep, yep. I yeah, Son of a Witch was not like the follow-up that I necessarily wanted it to be. There's some interesting points, but overall it doesn't have sort of the driving force of of the first book.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, fair. The fact that Wicked inspired three sequels, a musical, and long-standing Broadway run, more on that in a second, and to hit movies is only a testament to the power of the original source material and McGuire's clever reimagining. And all of that, right, from 95. The Wizard of Oz has been transformed into something incredible so many times. It's such a rare thing for one book, right, from 1900, to have been reimagined so successfully over and over again. It's like all of these people were able to find lightning in a bottle for this one story, right? And I think part of that, this is just me rambling, but like part of that is that the story is universally true. Like the the core tenets of a lot of this feels relevant.
SPEAKER_00:It's right, it's timeless. It is, it, it's true, it's gonna be true even in a hundred years. It'll it'll probably still be relevant. Yeah, right. It's it's it is just fundamental. It's a fundamental story.
SPEAKER_02:It's a human story, yeah. Wicked the musical opened on Broadway on October 30th, 2003. So eight years after the novel came out. The book was by Winnie Holtzman. Music and lyrics were written by Steven Schwartz. The musical is based on, of course, the book by McGuire, but it differs from the source material in major ways. Steven Schwartz specifically wanted a warmer version of the story than the novel.
SPEAKER_00:He famously hadn't finished reading the book before he started writing the music.
SPEAKER_02:That's funny. Steven Schwartz is quite a big name in theater.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:What are some of the other things that we might know him from?
SPEAKER_00:Godspell Pippin. He writes the lyrics for Pocahontas, Hunchback of Notre Dame.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, a Disney guy.
SPEAKER_00:Um, yeah. Him and Alan Mencken work together on some of these on some of these the Disney cartoons. Godspell, Pippin, and Wicked are his big hits. Yeah. But then also like there's Children of Eden, Baker's Wife, you know, there's deeper cuts.
SPEAKER_02:Adina Menzel and Kristen Chenowith originated the roles on Broadway. Menzel won the Tony for Alphaba. The stage effects to pull off Alphabet's levitation during Defiant Gravity were an innovation at the time. Uh, you know, there's this scene if you haven't seen the play, where it's the end of Act One, which Alex has said many times to me, and I believe, because I believe anything he says, that it's one of the best endings of Act One on any musical stage. And I'll tell you, I cry every time, and so do the people around me. It makes it seem like I see Wicket a lot. I've seen Wicket a few times. I'm not going. I'm not going every week. But there's this scene where Alphaba sort of raises from the ground, and when she does that as she's singing Defying Gravity, her dress seems to and cape sort of seem to extend, and she becomes like this floating, levitating, powerful and like much larger, right? And taking up much more space than she did, you know, for the rest of the play, in which she is a bit more awkward and humble and whatever. Meek, yeah. Yes, meek, and suddenly she becomes powerful. It's very similar to the end of um part one of the movie where you know it's depicted in a different way, but it's the sentiment is there where she suddenly has shifted.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and they they give us the cherry picker moment with her like her cape billowing down and her like being straight up and down instead of like I I think that's what's notable is she's not like mounted on the broom as she's flying away. She is like in her glory, just like up and down, vertical, you know, like they give us a nod to the play. Yeah, yeah. They gave us the image. Like, we did need that. That that's what's good about the move. I mean, I know we'll talk about the movie in a second, but like what's good about the movie is they're obviously fans of the show.
SPEAKER_03:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:And they know that that is who is going to see a movie musical but fans of the show, yeah. Right? Like, and and hoping that what they fell in love with other people who haven't gotten a chance to see the show will. Yeah. That's what makes a good movie musical.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, absolutely. Alex and I actually this year were able to go backstage at Wicked, and we saw kind of there's this piece of the floor that comes up, and we saw kind of the device, I guess, that Alphabet is strapped to while she's levitated. And it's fascinating because it's not it's not that uh sturdy. I mean, there's a lot of of el moving elements in Wicked that actors are strapped to things and the bubble and all that stuff, but this specific moment, it has to kind of be really slim in terms of its footprint as a device because it's like you don't know that it's coming, and they sneak it in and they have to kind of have people sneak it in and away. And I think what I heard was somebody actually kind of stands behind her on this very small platform and holds her in along with like because there's just no room for any other like physical device because it's a plot twist.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, now like imagine then having to sing your face off.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Someone's holding him happening. That yeah, it seems it seems challenging.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, it does seem challenging. But very, again, very uh successful for the audience.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, very moving. Impactful, yes.
SPEAKER_02:Wicked became one of the highest earning shows on Broadway. There are several international long-running versions in addition to New York City's. The stage design is also stunning. I remember the first time I saw Wicked, which was the first time I saw the play many years ago. Like when Glinda comes down in the bubble like device, which uh I don't know if it even is a bubble, but it's like a metal kind of bubble.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's like the clock uh pendulum.
SPEAKER_02:Right, it's like a steampunk version of the whole thing.
SPEAKER_00:I know the whole thing is very steampunk, which yeah, it was very cool.
SPEAKER_02:And I was like, oh my god, like that was the first time I'd seen a Broadway musical where I was like really floored by the set design. Like it felt, you know, and this was again 10 years ago, or more no more, this was like 15 years ago. It felt incredibly innovative and impressive for the time. I was like, whoa, this is this is hardcore. But the time dragon clock, which is something they talk about in, you know, the movie and in the book, obviously as well, but in the the theatrical version on Broadway, there's a little dragon on top of, you know, the stage above the stage, and the time dragon clock is kind of around the stage. And I didn't realize this, you know, I'm not watching the clock during the play, but during the performance, the clock shifts kind of at different key moments to kind of which again, if you've seen the movie and not the play, they talk about that at the beginning, and that's kind of where it all ties in. In 2024, our lives would change forever. No, in 2024 for good part one of the two-part film adaptation of Wicked was released. The film is based on the musical, less on the book by McGuire. It's pretty much, with some exceptions, but pretty much a beat-for-beat remake of the musical. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Some some enhanced moments. Yes. It's a little bit longer. Filled out, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's filled out, yeah. Wicked was directed by John M. Chu and stars Cynthia Arivo and Ariana Grande as Alphaba and Glinda. Steven Schwartz added new songs to the cinematic version of the story, which I I think are fun. Cynthia Arrivo and Ariana Grande insisted on singing live on set instead of lip syncing, which is kind of standard for when you're filming a musical, both to better connect the emotion of the scene, but also to honor the actors who played these roles live on Broadway. So I think this is like a similar example to the, you know, the Easter egg of Alphaba being vertical, you know, and also like Christian Chenowith and Indina Menzel are in this movie. Like they they do a lot for the Broadway fans for sure. Arivo even sang live when she did her own stunts, which she did mostly all of her own stunts, and flew on wires across the set, which meant she had to adjust how she breathed during performances. And of course, Ariana Grande, they've both I feel like I we don't even need to talk about any of this because every, you know, they're so they're out there in all these interviews. Everyone knows what's going on. But Ariana Grande also had to pretty dramatically like learn how to sing differently for this role. And oh yeah, right. You know, they both did a lot of like physical work on their voices and with the Cynthia Revo kind of being flung around set and needing to breathe and sing live all at the same time is like a pretty intense combination of things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it it totally pays off. You can totally tell when you're watching a movie and they aren't singing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right? Like we all know what people look like when they sing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it's kind of obvious when someone is not doing it. It just it just looks better when you're doing it. So it's a smart move, I think.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I also think it's kind of similar, like again, I think Wicked is very good at invoking a emotional response from audiences. And I think part of that is, you know, we we can roll our eyes a bit at their off-screen friendship, even though I don't. I think it's beautiful, but some people do. But I think you can tell the connection that they have and their chemistry during their performance, and you can tell, to your point, doing something like singing live on set, like it adds so much emotion to the scenes, and and I think their performances are more authentic for it. It reminds me a little bit of I have a friend who's a composer who said, Okay, if you have a score that's made with digital instruments, like it could be really, really good. But if you have a score that's performed by an orchestra, even if it's in a film, right? Not live, but you have a score that was recorded by an orchestra live, that will make you cry.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And it's like that difference that might be imperceptible to the, you know, an everyday person, but that's where you find like pockets of deep emotion, especially when you have such a good script and story and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's genuine. It's the same as we're talking about when we're talking about the CGI versus like the the sets of magical effects, yeah. It's uh it's genuine. Yeah, there's something there's something about it that feels a little bit more real.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you can connect to it a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Right, even though the story is about a wicked witch and you know, a girl in a bubble, like you could still yeah, you could still find um yourself in it a little bit.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Are we and I didn't know this actually, also had to wear prosthetic fake ears on set to cover up her own piercings.
SPEAKER_00:Right. She has a lot of them.
SPEAKER_02:So not only is she whipping around, right, singing live and breathing, and she's wearing fake ears.
SPEAKER_00:That's so good. Yeah that that might help you get into character.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Just a little bit, just a little something. I mean, uh let alone like getting painted and all that. Yeah. But just a little something to make your transformation complete.
SPEAKER_02:I I don't know, I'm sure this reached other people's TikTok feeds last year, but Mary Kate Morrissey, who was playing Alphaba on Broadway at the time of, you know, when Wicked the movie came out, um, she flooded my her content, flooded my inst my TikTok feed. And watching her, it was fascinating because it was just her talking to camera as she like de-greened after every show. And watching her do that and the amount of work that goes into it, like after she showered, right? Like still getting green out of every little nook and cranny, as and Cynthia Arrivo did that on set for however long, but these Broadway performers do it every day, multiple times a day for a year. It's a lot.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot on your skin, too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Miracle people aren't breaking out all the time.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, here's a fun fact they discontinued the color, the green color that they were using for the show. They have to get it specially made now because they're like, we're not changing the color.
SPEAKER_02:By like the body paint company?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's like they still like they still get it made, but it stopped being available readily for them.
SPEAKER_02:Wow, that's so funny. Well, I guess they don't have to worry about a copycat then.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, right, exactly. A loadoff.
SPEAKER_02:I wonder how much, like what volume of green body paint they're going through.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02:A lot.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, must be a lot.
SPEAKER_02:Must be a lot. Director John Mchew worked really hard to mimic the theatricality as much as possible on set. There were thousands of lighting cues that were meant to mimic lighting cues on a stage set. And he also, and I think you can see this in the sequence where they sort of get to the Emerald City, but he really wanted to build out like a set holistically and let the actors move freely around it and follow them. And, you know, trying, I think he threaded the line very well between filming a movie and letting the actors kind of explore in a way that felt more similar to theater. And and not explore, I suppose, but like move within the set, right? And um, I think he did that really well. Like, I'm thinking about that scene where Ariana Grande is dancing down at the end of Popular, the hallway, you know, and how, and I think I saw an interview where that was like something they weren't quite sure how they were gonna stage or block that moment. And they're like, Well, we have this hallway built out. It's like they because they had built out these like sets in their entirety. They have them, yeah. Even if they weren't planning to use them, and then she just like danced down, and they're like, Oh, that's great. So Wicked from 2024 became the highest grossing film adaptation of a musical ever. It was nominated for 10 Academy Awards, including Best Feature.
SPEAKER_00:What was interesting about the movie is they had Cynthia nominated for Best Actress with Ariana nominated as best supporting actress. But in the stage show, both Kristen and Idina were nominated for Best Leading Actress.
SPEAKER_02:The film becomes about Alphaba at the end, but I feel like the f for the vast majority of it, it's very equally shared between them.
SPEAKER_00:I I think well, it's to make them a little more competitive, right? They're not competing against each other, perhaps. But it was interesting that the musical firmly Well, I guess uh Kristen had already won a Tony Award at the at the time as well, and is certainly a driving force of I mean, like when she joined the musical, Glinda's part was a little bit smaller.
SPEAKER_02:What did she what what had she won before?
SPEAKER_00:Um she was in your good man Charlie Brown and she won for Sally.
SPEAKER_02:Got it, got it. Yeah. I love her. She's so clever.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, she's great.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And of course, Wicked for Good, part two, is now in theaters. The second part was filmed along with the first at the same time in England, so both parts were kind of filmed concurrently. And I think what I've heard in interviews is that both parts were done and edited at the same time. Like before the first movie came out, both were done with the editing.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, they're like all set, ready to go.
SPEAKER_02:Just made us wait.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It'd be so curious from like a filmmaking perspective, to like, did you unlock? Like, did you after, you know, in June of this year, where you were like, oh, actually, like I want to shift this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I remember last year when this came out being like, oh my god, we have to wait another year. And now it's here.
SPEAKER_00:Here we are. Here we are. I know, and now we can just watch them together.
SPEAKER_02:Yep, whenever we want. I have to admit I've watched Wicked a lot this year.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's helped us get through the year.
SPEAKER_02:We needed it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we did need it. We needed it.
SPEAKER_02:In 1969, when Judy Garland was 47 years old, she died from an accidental drug overdose. Garland was never able to shake the addiction to pills that her mother and Hollywood forced her on before the age of 10. Garland was married five times and had three children, including Liza Minelli. Like her mother, Manelli would go on to become an iconic performer in her own right. And I've been listening to a lot of um cabaret.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, good.
SPEAKER_02:Because after I wrote this sentence, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna learn more about Liza Minelli.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So many actors across so many mediums have brought characters written by L. Frank Baum over 125 years ago to life. Oz in its many forms, from Whiz and Wicked to Return to Oz, The Wizard of Oz, even the silent versions, right, from 1910 and 1924, has transcended into something magical for generation after generation. Every generation has its own version of the Wizard of Oz. It's one of the most enduring pieces of source material that I can think of. And to think it all started as a children's book. Looking at the dark history of the Wizard of Oz is a reflection of the treatment of women and actors in the 1930s, and how starkly different that is in some ways now, and how similar it is in some other ways. You know, there's regulations on sets, and we don't have directors writing memos about the weight of 13-year-olds, but do we still have, you know, problematic issues about how we handle women and actors and all kinds of people in these spaces? Yes, absolutely. Pay inequities and especially with first McGuire and then choose versions of Wicked, there is a really timely and important message being told. We are living in a very dark time in the United States and across the world. We are living under a government that is hiding behind masks and kidnapping people, straight from their homes, their jobs, and their cars. As a reminder, Wicked was originally written as a political commentary, and I think the message, no matter the genre of its delivery, rings very true today. It's a time to stand up for what's right, a time to question authority and leadership, a time to speak up, to do whatever we can to protect innocent people and human rights. It doesn't matter that Wicked is a musical about a fantasy world, or that The Wizard of Oz is a wacky children's book from 1900. It endures because it is relevant, because there is something for us to connect and to feel. And that is the truth behind the dark history and lore of The Wizard of Oz, one of the most everlasting and popular stories for generations and generations. Alex, thank you so much for coming to talk about this.
SPEAKER_00:It was my pleasure to talk about this.
SPEAKER_02:I knew, and I knew I needed a different energy than Alan for this topic, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Sometimes you just gotta bring in the right, the right audience for the topic. Yeah, this was incredibly fun to research, and I would encourage everybody just to call back to last week to go back and watch that scene in The Wizard of Oz where it turns from quote unquote sepia to Technicolor because now you know that that was just a girl, not Judy Garland, painted in a sepia painted on dress.
SPEAKER_00:I can't wait to re-watch that when I get home.
SPEAKER_02:It's so cool. Okay, Alex, I'm gonna put you on the spot. Of all of the versions, and you have read more of the books, you have watched The Wiz, you have watched way more kind of Wizard of Oz uh versions than I have. What is the one version? And you can't say wicked, like what is the the medium that I mean you can say wicked, but I would ask you to say the the theatrical show or the movie or the book. Like, what is the version of this story that if you had to take one with you in life that you would take?
SPEAKER_00:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02:I know, it's hard.
SPEAKER_00:Right. It's it's a little difficult, like, not to pick the movie mainly because that's my intro to it. Right. But like if we're gonna talk about like what what I myself personally like what what I go for, it's gotta be like the stage show of Wicked.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It is, it is kind of like to your point, at the end of Act One, Defying Gravity, the energy of people just jumping up being like, those people just did that, yeah, right here, yeah, in the same room as me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know, the songs are bops, it's it's a great time. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's my n answer, not answer.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's that's fair. Yeah. You gave me something for sure. Yeah, I mean, I I'll say this. When I am at almost any kind of Broadway show, I find it hard not to be moved to tears because you're like, even if the show's, you know, critically not amazing, I I get overcome by the emotion of being like, I am in the presence of these people who are doing this thing, and it is so impressive, and there's so much talent and work that goes into it. And so my first answer to that question was going to be again, just being really hard to peel myself away from the original movie.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But in this moment and time, wicked part one was so uh transformative for me, I feel like. Like, I think it did something to like, I just remember even our friend Peter, our sweet friend Peter, I remember him saying, Wow, like my daughter is gonna get to grow up with this movie. Like even Peter, who's like, you know, not particularly into like musicals and whatever, was so moved by the movie. I think it just had such an impact on me and so many people. But yeah, there is something to be to being in the presence of yeah, of a performer, performers at that level.
SPEAKER_00:I know there there's something theatrical about The Wizard of Oz that like begs you to see people like doing it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, there's some I love the books and I love reading it, and and I really do find reading is a passion of mine.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But there's something about the story that begs to see it acted.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think that's fair. Well, as always, thank you so much for being here. It has been the delight of my week to chat with you about this. And yeah, I know maybe especially in today's part two episode, it wasn't quite um as horror-based, but listen, this is our podcast. We're gonna talk about what we want to talk about. I want to talk about Wicked and the Witch of Oz.
SPEAKER_00:We had things to say, and we here's a platform for us to say it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, plus listen, it's about a witch, you know, so no matter what, we can't go wrong. There's always a place for witches on this podcast. Always. Always. Actually, the first episode you were ever in, do you remember? It was an episode called Men Can Be Witches Too. Oh, yeah. And I don't I I beg of you not no one to go back and listen because I'm sure it was horribly cringy at the time.
SPEAKER_00:But wow, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You were on a witch episode.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I'm honored to be on this one then as well.
SPEAKER_02:You are our outside counsel on witches. Uh okay. Thank you guys so much for listening. We will talk to you very soon. Bye.
SPEAKER_00:Bye.
