Episode 181 - Categorizing Horror Villains

This week Abby sits down with Kate Rotunda to talk through her classifications of horror villains. You can read Kate's original article HERE. 

Get Lunatics Merch here. Join the discussion on Discord. Check out Abby's book Horror Stories. Available in eBook and paperback. Music by Michaela Papa, Alan Kudan & Jordan Moser. Poster Art by Pilar Keprta @pilar.kep.

Transcript

Setting The Stage: Why Villains Scare

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Lunatics Radio Hour Podcast. My name is Abby Branker, and I'm sitting here with Kate Rotunda. Hello. And today we are here to talk about different types of horror villains and why they're scary. This is all from Kate's brain. So on December 6th, 2024, Kate published an article on lunaticsproject.com and definitely check out her work there that outlined exactly what we're going to talk about today. And I've been thinking about this topic since she released this because I love putting things into lists and categories. And so today we're going to talk about horror villains and sort of group them into different categories. I I I love doing that for many reasons, but one is because it helps you recognize how there really are only a certain number of ways you can tell stories. And especially in horror, it's really fun to kind of start categorizing villains that way. Kate, if I haven't already said this on this podcast, is really an encyclopedia of horror. So I uh I feel like no matter what, I could just spit fire cat like villains at you today to be able to properly categorize them and defend them. We shall see. Yeah. So it's gonna be a fun episode. There may be mild spoilers here, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. Really, just we're gonna talk at a high level about some pretty iconic horror films. Yes. So, okay, before we get into that, why don't you set us up a little bit, talk about why you wrote this article, how you started thinking about categorizing villains, kind of the impetus for why we're here today.

The Three Motives Framework

SPEAKER_00 1:50

So yeah, I watch a lot of horror movies. Once you watch a lot, you see you know, this is a lot of tropes, obviously, in horror films, you notice a lot of the patterns. And I noticed that a lot of horror villains had like very similar motives as to why they were doing something, whether it's just the classic slasher who's kind of mindless, psychotic, after a certain group of people, after a certain town. There's revenge, power, money, all of that. Just like classic villain stories, classic villain motives. And I started to notice that some of the scarier horror movie villains had very specific motives. And I don't necessarily mean like their individual motives, but just like why they work the way they do. So I kind of organized it into three different motives that I thought made the scariest horror villains. And in the article I wrote about um villains whose motives were either hedonistic pleasure, survival, or uh repercussions, repercussions being basically the consequence of other people's actions or why that villain exists. The hedonism is basically what I think is one of the scarier types of villains.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

I love it. I think it's my favorite.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah, which is just villains who you're like, you know what? The way my brain works is this is fun, and all I care about is that this is fun and I'm having a good time. And then survival, I also think is very scary because I think going up against something that is only doing what it is based on the primal instinct and need to survive, there's no really beating that, or there's no like loophole in that. Yeah. So I found that the some of the more scary villains fell into those categories. So I wrote this to kind of talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Do you feel like all villains could be categorized into one of these three categories? And obviously there's other other motivations, but do you think that I could throw any villain at you and you could assign it one of these three?

SPEAKER_00 3:31

I don't think they all necessarily fall into this because I think there are the more broad ones that are like, yeah, like power, money, all of that. And then I think a huge one that I just don't think is that scary. It just happens all the time, is just pure being a psych, like psychopath. Like Michael Myers. Yeah, Michael Myers is a pure psychopath, Jason is a pure psychopath, like just like emptiness. But I do think a lot of them do fall into this, especially more modern ones that are like franchises. Um, obviously, there's like more specific ones and her harsh becoming a lot of like, I think nowadays very trauma-based. So that can be a little different. But yeah, I think some of the more iconic like faces of franchises are either this, these three uh groups or just pure psychopathy.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because I was gonna say I was thinking about Michael Myers as I usually am, and I'm like, he doesn't, he clearly it wasn't really trauma. He doesn't get pleasure from it. He's just it's a bit instinctual, perhaps, but like it's different a little bit from because he is described as just pure evil.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

He was the essence of evil. So there are characters that are just evil for the sake of being evil. It's almost like not lazy writing because it still makes great characters, but it is just like, you know what, this character is evil, and that's that's where it ends.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

That's that. Yep, that's that. Survive. Cool. Okay, excellent. I'm so excited for this. I think it's such a fun setup. So let's start with hedonistic pleasure because again, I think it's my favorite. So hedonistic pleasure, tell us a little bit more about that category, and then let's start talking about examples.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

So basically, um, hedonism is basically just the idea that life exists to find pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

And I agree.

Hedonistic Pleasure: Lecter, Cenobites, Art

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yes, but I think it can go a little further where there are no morals, there are no ethics, there is just pleasure. There is just feeling good, there's just having a good time. It is that at the essence of all things, you need to find pleasure. And obviously, in this category with villains, that is at the expense of everything else. Just people who are having a good time and they don't care what else goes on.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

It's like, um, it's almost like and this is a really on the nose thing, but like the idea of Bacchus, right? Like the god of wine and sex and pleasure, and there's that whole true blood like plot line where they're they're conjuring that, and and that happens a lot in some of my favorite works, actually. So there's a novel called A Secret History by Donna Tark. Oh, yes. Plays with this. Like it's it's just this like sort of in these cases, it's almost like a possessive conjuring type of thing. But to me, when I think about like hedonistic pleasure, it's this, it's like everything for the sake of this, like yes, sexual, gluttonous, ritual.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Yeah, hedonism is just pleasure above everything else. It's the highest value of life. That is, it's a like I think it's a philosophy, is what it's categorized as. Um, it's just that your goal in life is to maximize pleasure. And I think it's a part of the philosophy is minimize pain, but it's I guess pain differs from person to person. Yeah. Okay, tell us some of your best examples for this. So, my best examples that I include in the article is first, Dr. Hannibal Lecter from Silence of the Lamps. Dr. Lecter is an intelligent, high-functioning individual who has no trauma that they discuss, no, nothing in his life that would suggest he would become this vicious, cannibalistic killer, but he likes it. And you tell that the whole movie, he enjoys it. He enjoys this playing with people, he enjoys the eating of people, he enjoys killing people. He You could argue, I guess, a little bit that it's for an intellectual reason as well, but even then there would be no reason to continue if it was just a question of what would this be like, but he continues to do it, he just likes it. That's it. He he finds he finds it stimulating, I think. And even messing with Clarice, he finds stimulating. There's no reason for him to cooperate with the police at all. He doesn't have to say anything to them. He gets nothing out of it. He just likes seeing people in pain, he likes seeing people at their worst, and he ultimately likes the taste of people.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

It's almost too where he's so smart, he's so accomplished in all of these other places. It's like he's not getting any joy or pleasure from those things because he's so advanced, is kind of how he's portrayed as a as a character. And so the only thing left for him to kind of feel something is through this route.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

And there is, and I think I say this in the article, but there is one aspect of the film where he goes after someone because of revenge.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

But at the end, but um, that won't end his cannibalism, that won't end his torment. It's not gonna be like, oh, I got revenge on that person, now I can move on.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

It there is no end to his life work, which is what makes him scary. That's just is who he is as a person. Right. And as long as he feels joy from it, he's not gonna stop.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

No, yeah, absolutely. And also, we will link the article in the description of this podcast, so definitely go read that as well. Okay, tell us the next one, Kate.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Uh, the next one, and I think the most obvious one is the Cenobites from the Hellraiser series. Sure, yeah, iconic. The Cenobites exist as a race to feel the most pleasure possible. And to them, obviously, pain and pleasure have become the same thing. So they inflict pain on themselves and others. And their philosophy is so ingrained in them that whether or not you want that, they're gonna do it. Because one, they find pleasure in it and they need you to find pleasure in it. But they are the definition of hedonism. Their philosophy in life is pleasure is everything. Yeah, that's all we can do, and they've gotten so far in it that regular things that cause joy no longer do. So they now have to inflict like extreme forms of pain on themselves to find pleasure. But in the movies, uh even the people who use the puzzle box, the um uncle in the film, in the first film, seeks this out because he's also someone that's after hedonism. He has tried every form of sexual pleasure he can, and so he has to go to the extreme, which is opening the puzzle box and calling the Cena Bites. But whether or not you meant to or not, they're gonna indoctrinate you into their world of pain is pleasure, pleasure is pain, and pleasure is everything. To have this whole species that cares so much about this to the point of nothing else, there's no other point to them. They don't go after people for revenge, they don't, I mean, they go after people who open their puzzle box because that's their way into this world.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

But it's almost just like an empty species of just this pleasure. So it's terrifying because that's all that matters to them. So if you're being chased by them, you're being attacked by them, there is no reason for them to stop.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

There is no reason for them to continue. So just the fact that they will continue is what I think makes them so terrifying that these sensations to them are the most important thing in the world.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Right. They have no empathy for anything else.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Like that's all it's literally all they care about. It's just let's feel good. And to them, feeling good is any extreme whatsoever, whether it's pleasure or pain. Right. It's all pleasure to them.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Okay, tell us about Art the Clown. Uh, Art the Clown, what a strange little creature. He also, I think, is has a hedonism, uh, hedonistic view on life. He he's having a great time if you watch those films. He's skinning people, he's rubbing salt in the wounds, he's doing all this with a huge smile on his face. And as you continue the storylines, you maybe find out he's more demon-esque. So maybe there's something there. But the first one alone, before you know anything about his character, he's just doing this to do it, and because it brings a smile to his face. Obviously, clowns are a bigger thing to go into in terms of how they're treated in horror and like what they are and the fear of them. But his job is to perform, and who he's performing for is himself. And I think he does it because he likes it. And like you have no other reason to believe why he's doing this. Anyone that comes across him, he's like, Oh, this would be a fun person to kill. And that's all that matters to him. It's like a form of narcissism, it's like a huge ego thing. I'm gonna have a good time in life, and what causes me a good time is killing people. And if all that matters to me is having a good time and being a silly little clown, um, then I'm gonna keep doing it. No reason to stop.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

And anyone who has a point of view in life that is above everything else, in this case, pleasure, getting them to do anything else is near impossible. So when you have someone that's like murderous with that intent, it's really scary.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Okay, I'm gonna throw two at you. Yes. And I want you to tell me if you agree or disagree. Okay. Okay. Patrick Bateman.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

I think I can see that, but I think because he's so almost insecure that the pleasure is more for other people than it is for himself. Like he his viewpoint is like, cause you see him break down at times. So there are definitely times where he's just having a good time, like the the Huey Lewis scene for sure. But I think because his is so external, externally forced that it's a little less so.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

So, where would you categorize him?

SPEAKER_00 12:18

He is a tricky one. I think he could be a mix of hedonism, but he's also a mix of, I think he's just a little bit of a psychopath. And then I guess if you want to make a new category of like insecurity, the need to fit in, like he's a mix of being a psychopath and this this need to fit in. So, like he does things that aren't good in society's terms, but he forces them to seem like they're doing he's doing it to appear better.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

We've gotta create like a crazy Venn diagram first. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay, the next one, which I think I think you're gonna disagree with, and I think you're gonna say it's survival.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Dracula.

Edge Cases: Bateman And Dracula

SPEAKER_00 12:55

That's an interesting one because I actually do think that the further, and it's so hard because there's so many different Draculas, but the further you get into Dracula's life, yes, I do think it is pleasure. Because maybe in the beginning, like vampires, you could argue that they're survival, but like it's so easy, they make a point that they can survive on other things. And then it evolves into this, like yes, and it evolves into especially Dracula as a vampire, because he's this like royal guy with this castle and all this. Like, yeah, he definitely toys with people because he's bored also. Like, that's definitely part of it. But yeah, I think I think Dracula definitely, especially when he's like full on Dracula. Like maybe you could argue, argue earlier in his life it was for survival, but no, I think he's fully like just having a good time. Yeah, got nothing else to do, and he wants to feel good. Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Absolutely. All right, one point for me. All right, let's talk about survival as a category.

Survival As The Scariest Drive

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Survival, I actually genuinely think makes the scariest horror films. Ooh, okay. Because anything where you tap into a primal instinct in someone creates this unstoppable force. Because if you're going against a monster and their reasoning for attacking you is this is life or death for them. There is no loophole there, there is no getting out of it. Like there is nothing you can do because that's what they need to be alive. And put in a life or death situation triggers something so animalistic. And I have animals on here, but just like animalistic to the sense of how are you supposed to stop something that is fighting for just existence? And you can kill it, obviously, but prior, it's gonna be hard to kill it because I mean you see that in animals, you see it in people. When people are faced with dying, it triggers this insane fight or flight thing. And if it if it's fight, there's no there's you either have to kill it brutally or it's it's gonna do everything, it's gonna cause some damage.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Do you think it evokes empathy in you for these villains?

SPEAKER_00 14:48

I do at times because you watch and obviously with something like I think I have alien on here, so like you're supposed to just see it as this monster. But once you tap into the part of your brain that's like, this is a living thing. Like, if you put like the humans are faced with the xenomorph and alien, and but imagine the xenomorph being faced with the humans, like do it from that perspective. This is they are put in an environment that is different to them, they are being hunted, they are hungry. Like it's just imagine being on an alien spaceship, like you were brought in an alien spaceship, and these people are trying to kill you. Like it I think it would trigger something in you to become crazy and just try and become so disoriented and so scared and just fight for your life. You just are fighting to be alive. Like, I really think it's the most basic instinct people and animals have. Yeah. It's the need to be alive.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

It's almost like Jurassic Park when I think about xenomorphs in that way. It's like, yeah, what are these humans doing here? What are they doing to us?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Yeah, it's so foreign, and there are no thoughts when you're fighting for life or death. You're not thinking about like, oh, in the future, is that gonna affect someone? What about their like any of that? Like, you're just like, I need to be alive and it doesn't matter. Like, I this is it's there's not even thoughts there. It's just pure energy. Exactly. With the xenomorph, especially, that one I think is very in like that is trying to survive. Maybe as the alien movies go on, it becomes a little more nuanced. But the first xenomorph is they crash onto its planet, right? They take it into their foreign spaceship that this creature's not familiar with. It attacks a person, but that's what it it has been ripped from its home. It is trying to survive, it is latching onto something to survive. So while we as the people watching it have this precious feeling towards the human, it has its precious feeling towards itself. Yeah, it is now in an unfamiliar area. And the xenomorph is also just built biologically to survive. Its blood is acid, it's it has like layers of teeth, it's this unstoppable force. Like that's and it's true of animals in real life too. There are some animals that are just they built with defense systems built in. Like that is their point is to survive. So when you're faced with a creature on your spaceship that is just fighting for its life with no human thoughts, no human urges, no loopholes, nothing you can say to it, talk it out of anything, or like distract it, just pure confusion and basic primal instincts. There's it's terrifying. It'd be like being trapped in like a mall with a lion. The lion doesn't know what's going on, it just needs to get out and survive. And if if it's hungry, it's gonna eat you because that's what it does. Like it's the same thing. And like when you make it a creature like the xenomorph, obviously it feels more monstrous because we were not familiar with it, but just replace that with any other animal. These people are hunting an animal down that they brought here has nothing going on. It just needs to be alive. I also have the creeper on here. Yep. Uh, Jeepers Creepers, great movie. Um, not a great director, but um can't say that about you can say that about any horror movie. But um, I think Jeebers Creepers is great because it's one of those horror movies I love, which is what if the characters did I mean, they make some stupid mistakes in the beginning, but what if they did everything right?

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

There's a scene where the character hits him with the car, backs up the car, runs it over like six times. They tell the police, they tell these people they're safe, like, and it still goes wrong.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Right.

Xenomorphs, Creatures, And The Facility

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Because there are some things that you just can't stop. The creeper's whole shtick is that every 23 years in the spring, it feeds for 23 days, and it feeding is one survival needs to eat like bears before hibernation, but also the way the creeper's anatomy works is that it needs to take compatible body parts to bring into itself to keep it alive. So, what is the human race to this creature? Nothing. It's what it needs. It's what is like food to us, like it's what it needs to be alive. And if it is indestructible, which it seems to be, why would it let anything stop it? Like the only thing that's going to cause it death is not getting the parts it needs. So it's not gonna stop if you shoot at it, because that's not gonna kill it. What is gonna kill it is not eating you. So I think just faced with a creature that again is just there are no human thoughts there. There is no human empathy, there are no human morals. There is just feed, survive, animal instincts.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

What is the origin story of the creeper? I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

I don't know. I've seen the first and second one. Uh I don't know if they go into it and like it's possible they do, but I think it's just like an ancient thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

It's just literally There was never like a human that transitioned.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

No, I don't believe so that I'm aware of. I think it's just this creature that exists that this is how its body works. This is how its anatomy works. Yeah, there's no there's no distinct origin story for the creeper. It's just that creature exists, this is how its body works, and that's what it needs to do to be alive. Fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Okay, this next one I'm This is a trickier one. It's a tricky one, and I'm really curious. So tell us about Cabin in the Woods.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

So Cabin in the Woods, specifically the facility, which is the if you've ever seen Cabin in the Woods, the people orchestrating basically in the movie, this fake horror movie within the movie to create a sacrifice. So this movie is basically the trolley problem. It is movie horror version of the trolley problem, which is tell us what that is. The trolley problem is you're Standing at the side of a train track. A train is barreling down. You have a lever next to you that can switch the train to a different track. On one track is one person tied to the track, on the other is three people tied to the track. The way the train is going, I believe it is going to hit the three people tied to the track. So you can make the decision to switch the lever to the one person, but then you are ultimately killing that person. So it's basically the question of is one life worth saving many?

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Like what is the value of human life?

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Just like from the Storm of the Century.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Yes. So just like morally okay to sacrifice one person for the lives of many. In Cabin in the Woods, the answer is yes. Right. According to the facility, yes. Who cares if five college students die if all of humanity is saved? So the facility is entrusted with this knowledge. They're one of the they are part of like, I think they claim there's a facility in every country or in every major continent. You need to sacrifice, I think, around five or more people to keep at bay these ancient gods from taking over and literally destroying the world and all of humanity. So to them, these strangers, it's easier to pretend someone else doesn't have a life. Like obviously, we have our own view of our own life, but it's easier to pretend other people aren't alive. So, especially if you're watching them on the screen. So, like the facility it chooses these people and they're okay with killing them because millions, billions of people are saved as a result of it. So the facility operates on the level of not only do they not care about the people that they are sacrificing, they don't care about their own lives because they know that all of humanity will end if they don't solve, if they don't complete their mission. I put this one in because I do think the people running the facility, especially towards the end when things get out of control, really demonstrate the need to survive and the need to protect humanity. Because while in the beginning it's a little more clinical and corporate, as the movie devolves, it just becomes anything needs to happen to get the sacrifice done. Because if not, the world's over. So obviously it's easy to hypothetically say I wouldn't do this, but if you were faced with the question of billions of people dying or five people dying, it's a tough decision, but I can see how the facility chose to do this. It they are operating under the assumption that they are the ones keeping everyone alive. So I do think it does provoke this survival instinct.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Yeah. Okay, I have a question for you. Yes. I'm thinking about everything you just said. What about a film like Ready or Not? Yes. Where it's similar in that it's like a sacrifice sort of thing, but it's a microcosm, not for like the greater good of humanity. How do you how do you categorize that?

SPEAKER_00 22:34

That one's an interesting one. I love that film. Same. That one's an interesting one because one, they're operating with no proof. So that's a question. Yep. I think that one's trickier because it is a survival for the family, but it's also this like cult mentality. So you're bringing in other psychological um aspects and ideas there because it's almost brainwashing there. But yeah, I guess you could definitely say that that's a need to survive. But I don't remember, and maybe you remember, in Ready or Not, do they think they're gonna die if they don't kill her? Do they just think they'll lose their wealth?

SPEAKER_01 23:09

I feel like I don't know, remember either, but I think that it's it's their wealth that it's tied to their success in life.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Yeah, yeah. So, like, while in the end, spoiler alert, that is what it is tied to their lives, but I believe they just think it's their success and their wealth. Like they think that that's what it needs. So that's less so because it's not even putting the value on like human lives, it's just on there.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

It's kind of also similar, Adam Brody again, but like Jennifer's body with the sacrifice at the beginning, where it's like, well, it's they're not gonna die, but they want to be like famous musicians.

Ready Or Not, Jaws, And Nature’s Fury

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Yeah, that's different. That's that's the whole like money greedyness of it, all where I think it's different when you unlock this like for the greater good thing, because like again, the facility in Cabin in the Woods is literally billions of lives on their hands, um, versus I just want to improve my quality of life. Like, that's completely different. Cause it's not like the trolley problem is like kill one person or run over six million dollars. Like it's right. But it's interesting to compare the two because you see this like again, primal need to survive that kind of turns off human emotions and human thinking versus overthinking about what makes a life worth living. So there's a difference between life ending and life not feeling worth it. You'd also put jaws in this category, I assume. See, that was I thought about putting Jaws in this category, but I ultimately couldn't because that shark does not need to be doing any of that. That shark is just doing that. That I almost put in psychopath. Yeah, I'm like a disease, maybe it has. Like I don't know, like rabbit shark. I really thought about that because I was like, oh, Jaws could count in this. Like it definitely is in animal instincts. Like, if animal instincts were a category, it would definitely be in it. But the shark in Jaws has no, it's not trapped on that beach. It doesn't need to eat people, eating people the weird way that sharks don't normally eat people. Yeah. I think that shark just went a little crazy.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Um yeah, that shark has rabies.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Yeah, something's up with that shark. Someone, I think there is a theory online that the shark was part of the pack that attacked Quint's boat in the past and it's now come back for just like um just like Moby Dick.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Oh, sure, sure, sure. Where it's it's that one whale, it's that one shark, it's that one twister.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

The um the crocodile in uh Peter Pan.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Right, right. It's personal.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Yes. But yeah, Jaws, like I really did it when I was writing this, I was like, oh, Jaws is one. And then I was like, but that's not how sharks act.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

And it'd be one thing if they were like, oh, there's a current that brought the shark in and is preventing it from going back out into open waters, but it's not. It's just fucking around on this beach because I guess it got a taste for human flesh. Like, I don't know why it's doing that and why the mayor is on its side. Have you seen the movie Under Paris? This is a bit of a tangent. No, tell us. It's a crazy shark movie about like a mutated shark in the um the Seine River in Paris, I believe. And it's another movie where you're like, oh, the mayor wants this shark to eat people. Like they're like, there's no shark. Like it's just like this weird trope of like same with like Ghostbusters, I guess, where it's just like the politics of the world are like, oh, people are dying and being attacked by this creature. Eh, I don't believe you. Money, money, money. Happens in Friday the 13th a lot. Oh, yeah. Like, just like, which is like, I guess, accurate to the real world. Yeah, but also Under Paris, if you want to watch a crazy shark movie, I recommend Under Paris because spoiler alert, the shark wins. And in a way that I won't reveal because it's truly insane to watch. But I I higher recommend it in the sense of it's bonkers, it's not a good movie. But excellent.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

We love a campy horror movie.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Yes. But yeah, I I think that there's definitely I think I think it would be scary. And I just view it as like being trapped with a wild animal, where it's like, even on my side of it, if I were trapped in a setting with a wild animal, what would I do to survive?

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Like to unlock that just basic need to be alive. Like I have uh, this is another little like off, but I know someone who a friend was telling me that one of their friends said that if they were drowning, they would just inhale water to make it end quickly. And it's like, but your body won't let you do that. Yeah, you didn't think that, but you will That's the thing, and that's true with like these creatures where it's like your body won't let you stop. Yeah, like your your subconscious will take over a lot in terms of survival.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Yeah, and this is a silly example, but Alan and I were in Mexico one time and we were we're meant to jump off, like we were in a cenote, which is like this deep swimming hole, like a this 30-foot like rock cliff and jump in. Yeah. And I was up there like for so long, like people were chanting for me. Like that's how long. And I was like, I physically like my body was stopping me from doing it. Absolutely. And finally, the lifeguard, who was just like having a blast watching this, was like, just look out and not down. Yeah. And just that shift, I just jumped immediately. But it was like literally my body physically was stopping me. Like I couldn't bring myself to do it.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Well, it's like also true of like this is a much lesser level. But I went when I went to Chicago as a kid, they have like the Sears Tower, like this glass platform. And you step on it and your brain is like, I know this is secure, but your body is weird. Like your body doesn't feel it. So there are things that like, and I always say I'm a big person where I'm like in like an apocalyptic movie. I'm like, oh, I just killed myself because I couldn't deal with it. But it it's again, you can say all these things, but you're the human and animal need to be alive is so much stronger than people think.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Yeah, it's true. To your point, this like our thing one of our first days, Alan brought me, which you know, this is a conversation for a separate day. But he brought me to this like virtual reality arcade with his friend. So romantic. So romantic. And we put on, like, you know, you put on like the goggles. Yeah. This was like before they were at home for people to use. Yeah. And the thing we were doing was like walking off a plank off the side of a building. Sure. I couldn't do it. Yeah. I was in a VR headset, I couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Like, uh, fortunately, I I can say for myself, I've never been in a truly life or death situation. Yeah. But people who have have talked about like your mind shuts down, the adrenaline rush of everything. So having these horror movies where you have the villain just purely running on that need to survive. There is, it's just a never-ending. Even if you injure the creature, you injure the animal, you injure the xenomorph, that's not gonna stop it. Like just injuring it isn't gonna cause it to lay down and die. If anything, it's gonna make it worse.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Um, but yeah, so the facility is a harder one, but I I really do think they fit into survival because they are this is not for joy. They don't enjoy doing it. I mean, obviously they have fun in it, because you gotta have fun in things. They have their little bet and everything like that. But like if they didn't have to do it, they wouldn't. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

But they feel like they have to for the greater good, is how they believe. Yes. Okay, tell us about repercussions.

Repercussions: Carrie, Jennifer, Teeth

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Repercussions is uh one of my favorite ones because it is. I also debated calling it you did this to me, uh, which is villains that didn't need to exist, but something was done to them that caused it. For example, that I think a lot of people know is Carrie. Carrie gets telekinetic powers. That happens with her, period. She gets telekinetic powers. But prior to the prom, she's not using these powers, and she's certainly not using them for evil, other than shutting her mom like in a closet. Like, she barely uses her abilities, and she definitely doesn't use them for evil. Only when an extreme act is done to her does it turn her into this. So had those kids never dumped blood on Carrie, she probably never would have killed anyone with her powers.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Like, she is the consequence of their actions. So you did something, and now you have to deal with what you've created. Uh, Carrie White is one. Another one is Jennifer from Jennifer's Body, which I will mention every episode. Thank God. Um Jennifer is sacrificed and it goes wrong, and she becomes this demon. Uh, Jennifer was not a malicious person prior to this. She was not evil. She would never have gone on to kill someone. But because of an external force, she is turned into something that is evil, that is terrible, that is murderous. Tell us about teeth. Teeth, yet again. Teeth is another one where when the movie first starts, you think that this girl has, well, she has teeth in her vagina, and you think that it's just happening every time she has sex. But again, in the movie, there is a consensual sex scene where the teeth in her vagina do not come out, they do not harm, they do not affect her sex at all. Only when she is assaulted do these people get attacked. So only when she's sexually assaulted, only when she's touched inappropriately, does her defense mechanism go into work. So if no one ever sexually assaulted her, if no one did anything, she could have, right? She may have never known. If she had just had consensual sex from the beginning, if no one had forced themselves upon her, it's possible she could have gone her, could have gone her whole life without knowing what was happening down there. It's actions. It's this idea that sure you can do whatever you want, but there's going to be consequences to it. And she's one of them. So she's not quite a villain in it, but she's still repercussions. She's still the consequence of other people's actions. That didn't have to happen to them. It's because of what they did.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that one, like in the way that if you really think about each of these categories, you realize there's something deeper, right? Like with like with survival, maybe evoking a bit of sympathy. Yeah. Repercussions, even more so, right? It's like it's often people who, of course, didn't deserve anything that happened to them. And and and they become horrifying and scary, but you can also feel in your heart like dang, you know, and it adds something to the movie.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

And like Carrie and the and Jennifer and the and like teeth and all that, like technically they're not villains, but they're villains of the people who they kill. Like that, they're villains of those stories.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

But Carrie, especially, Carrie holds such, and I think this is true of a lot of women, especially. Carrie holds such like a nice, like her women love, like protect and love Carrie. Like, yeah, it's just like such a good representation. But yeah, literally, Carrie does nothing wrong prior to the prom scene, other than locking her mom in the closet. Abusive mother, I might add. Horrible mother. But she doesn't even hurt her prior to that. Yeah. It is only when and she has violence inflicted on her before the prom scene. She put up with so much. She puts up with so much, but there was this one act of not even like the blood dropping on her, but also the bucket dropping on Tommy. Like this thing that really tipped her over the edge that to a point you're like, I can't even feel sorry for you. This didn't need to happen. This isn't her fault. You did this to her. And now she's gonna do stuff to you.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

As it should be. Alan and I and some of his friends did a series a long time ago for Halloween called This The Scary Scuffle. And it was essentially like where everyone drafted horror villains, and we put it. It was like a tournament where we picked them against each other, and then we'd have to sort of defend who would win in each pairing, and then we came up with an ultimate winner, and I think it was Carrie. Like I think she's also just so powerful. She is, yeah. She fucked everybody up. I love Carrie so much. And I love Brian De Palma so much. So yes. Okay, Kate. We are at the point of the episode where I'm going to give you I'm gonna I'm gonna fire horror movies at you, and you're gonna tell me.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Okay. They may not be these three categories, they may be other categories. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Okay, let's see. All right. Bodies, bodies, bodies. Well, misunderstanding. Hereditary. Witchcraft, like magic, and brainwashing. Nightmare on Elm Street. Uh psychopathy mixed with the supernatural. The birds. I guess uh Mother Nature's Fury.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Would you put the birds into survival? Not really, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:27

No, because they're not eating people. I guess just the fury of Mother Nature. 28 Days Later. I guess a mix of survival and mother nature fury.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Godzilla.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Godzilla is survival and repercussions. Poltergeist. Supernatural ones are really hard. I don't understand the world of it that much, but I think that's more like a supernatural effect or ghostly mixed with. I guess you could oh, actually could be repercussions because they built it on the No. Is Poltergeist the one where it's like you you you move you didn't move the bodies? Is that poltergeist? With the cemetery they built the houses on the cemetery. Oh, maybe he's like, you moved the headstones, but you didn't move the bodies.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Oh, yeah, it could be.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

So it could be repercussions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Raw.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Ooh. Raw's a hard one. Cause you could like almost say that's genetics.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Towards the end. I love Raw. Ra's so good.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

But um But I also think like hedonism a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Yeah, yeah. No, definitely hedonism a little bit because it's something that um she does find great. They like settle into.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

It's almost like they're they come into it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah, I would argue, yeah. Maybe a genetic hedonism. The shining. The shining is psychopathy mixed with just supernatural, like evil, just pure evil, really. The thing. Survival. Suspiria. That's just evil as well. They're just like, and I guess do they do it for fun, the witches? I think there's a little hedonism. Yeah, I think there's a little hedonism there. They're having a good time. I guess anything witches do is for fun. Same with the ghosts. I guess that's hedonism a little bit. The ghosts. Yeah. Yeah. Trained to poussan. That's it. Same with zombies. I think it's a mix of survival and like nature's fury a little bit. However, the well, depending on how the zombie outbreak started, it sometimes it's created in the lab. Sometimes it's I think in 20 days later it's just like wrath, right? Yeah. Maybe it's a lab. But yeah, I think like Nature's Fury is definitely another one. Like folly of man and nature.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

I think both, I'm just I was gonna ask you about get out, but I think both us and get out are repercussions.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Yes. Well, I think get out is psychopathy and brainwashing on one side and then repercussions when he in terms of the villains in it. Yeah. And get out is brainwashing and uh you could you could and you shouldn't, but you could argue survival for get out a little bit. Yeah because they're trying to de-age and but like that's more vanity. Yeah. I guess vanity if that's one, and racism. Can racism be one? Yeah. Of course. Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Psychopathy and um again brainwashing, but I guess okay, so for Leatherface, yeah, brainwashing, psychopathy, and also um mental def uh defect. The rest of the family, a little bit of hedonism. Yeah, yeah. Candyman. Ooh, repercussions. The original candy. Yeah, absolutely. The descent. Survival on both parts, on either side. That's pure back me into a corner survival on both the main character and the villains. It follows. That one's hard because you have to question whether the demon would die if it didn't do this. And because we don't know a lot about the origin story. So with demons, you could argue survival. Because I don't know if that demon doesn't do this or whatever the ghost living entity does it need to do that. Yeah. But that one's also just like kind of also pure evil, like the way that movie's great. It's so good. But I would argue either you could argue survival, because does that entity need to do this to exist? Yeah. I don't know if I could argue heathenism, because there's not really joy coming from that side. It's very you the less you know about it, that's also like very scary. Like not knowing the motive at all is also terrifying.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

I find that movie to be so one of the scariest movies of the last five years.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Yes. The scene with the really tall dude ducking under the door. Yeah. When I first saw that movie, last five years. How old is it?

SPEAKER_01 38:10

I I watched it in the last five years. That like just it's from 2014. Oh no. That was really late in watching that one.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

I was like, oh, that must have come out last year. That really, I was like, wait. Um, that one I think is yeah, that one's hard because like you're like, I would if you want to say that the demon needs to do this, then it's survival. But I would also argue it's just pure evil. Yeah. Like just I would actually argue that if you want to make the real villain the guy from the beginning, he is survival. Right. The guy that originally gives it to her. Yeah, totally. Obviously, he's a jackass, but again, you push someone into a corner. They don't care about other people, they care about themselves.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Yeah. I think one of the most on the nose examples of repercussions is Frankenstein.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yeah. And because again, Frankenstein in the original story in the book is a gentle creature. It's it's the the um hatred from other people that make him lash out. Yeah. And then it's just psychopathy on Dr. Frankenstein's effect.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

But I think also Dr. Frankenstein is a little hedonism. He wants to see what he can do. He has a god complex. Yeah, exactly. Um, but yeah, I think also Godzilla, when you said Godzilla, I think is very much repercussions. Yeah. Because he is experiment, he is the um, to quote um blue oyster cult song Godzilla, they say um nature shows again and again uh no, history shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man. Um and that's very Godzilla. Sorry, I'm so into blue oyster cult lately. Oh. Hot take. Um interesting. But yeah, just generally this like humans doing stuff and then being like, oops, we created sorry, we created the monster and now we're mad at it.

Frankenstein, Godzilla, And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_01 39:51

Whoops, yep, now it's killing us. Uh oh. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Kate, this was so fun. And if anyone, I'm sure I've said this a hundred times. Both on the podcast and in my posting about you that you are if anyone doubted your uh horror encyclopedia nickname. I hope this helped put an end to it. Thank you so much for writing the article and for coming to talk about it. This was really delightful. And we want to hear from you guys. Tell us what you disagree with. Tell us what what films you want Kate's opinion on. And uh yeah, thank you so much. We'll we'll talk to Kate more in the future, so don't worry. She'll be back. Bye. Talk to you guys soon. Bye.