Episode 177 - The History of Third Man Factor

This week Abby and Alan discuss Third Man Factor; real life incidents, theories and it's impact on horror and pop culture. Third Man Theory refers to the phenomena of people surviving extreme situations and claiming it's because an invisible entity came to save them. 

Get Lunatics Merch here. Join the discussion on Discord. Check out Abby's book Horror Stories. Available in eBook and paperback. Music by Michaela Papa, Alan Kudan & Jordan Moser. Poster Art by Pilar Keprta @pilar.kep.

Transcript

Content Warning & Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This episode contains a firsthand account of the events of september eleventh, two thousand and one. It includes descriptions of traumatic experiences and may be upsetting or distressing for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Lunatics Radio Hour Podcast. My name is Abby Brinker. I am sitting here with Alan Kudan.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Hello.

Defining Third Man Theory

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Today we're going to talk about a widely reported phenomenon, something with more than 200 documented cases. An experience that has saved lives in seemingly impossible situations. And just like all phenomena, it's hard to define and even harder to understand. Is it spiritual, paranormal, or maybe a trauma response in our own brains? Today we are talking about third man theory.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Wait, does this have anything to do with the movie The Third Man?

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Oh, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

The 1949 classic.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yeah, I don't know. I've I've never seen Classic Noir. I hate to admit.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

It's a it's a it's a with the the gum shoes and the noir.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

That's a good point. Why don't we talk about the research and then at the end we can we can decide if we think it's inspired by the noir classic third man?

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Well, here's the issue. I I watched it back in film school and I don't really remember the plot.

Sources And The Angel Effect

Ron DiFrancisco’s 9/11 Escape

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Next week on Lunatics Radio Hour. Alright, let's talk about our sources today. An MPR article, Guardian Angels or the Third Man Factor, a TB Newswatch article by Lee Dunnock, Canadian last known person to escape World Trade Center on 9-11, and season one, episode 15 of the show The National Geographic Explorer. The episode is called The Angel Effect. On September 11th, 2001, Ron DiFrancisco was at work in the World Trade Center in Manhattan. His office was located on the 84th floor of the South Tower. After the first plane struck the North Tower, he could see smoke and fire from his building and sadly witness people jumping from the upper floors of the North Tower. Ron returned to his desk and called his wife to tell her that he was safe and suggested that she turn on the TV. He continued receiving phone calls from friends who are concerned about his safety, and at that point, no evacuation order had been given for the South Tower. After speaking with a friend in Toronto, again, Ron was Canadian, his friend advised him to leave the building immediately, and Ron agreed to evacuate. He tried to encourage colleagues to leave with him. One of his coworkers, Mike, joined him as they headed towards the elevator banks. While they were walking, United Airlines Flight 175 struck the South Tower. Impacting floors 78 through 85, the plane's wing passed through Ron's trading floor. Many of his colleagues likely died on impact. Ron and his colleague Mike were thrown forward by the force of the collision and struck the walls. They were covered by debris from the ceiling and walls. At the time, Ron did not realize a plane had hit the building and believed an internal explosion had occurred. After regaining orientation, they entered a stairwell to evacuate. While descending, they encountered people moving upward who reported that lower stairwells were blocked. Ron and others reversed direction and moved upwards. He later encountered a section of drywall, which he pushed aside, allowing him to slide to a lower landing and resume descending. As he continued down the stairwell, he passed through areas affected by fire and smoke. The thick smoke was making it difficult for the men to keep going. He passed by people laying down on the stairwell, many of them losing oxygen and giving up. The floors were wet and cold. People were, as Ron described it, going to sleep. I mean, it's just this horrifying, scary idea that even like the smoke is so intense that even when you're descending and trying to escape from a building that's about to collapse, people are just giving up and like passing out from smoke inhalation and exhaustion on the way down.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

I mean, you used to work in the World Trade Center.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Yes, for 10 years. But but post-9-11 in in the One World Trade Center.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

It just seems so terrifying to be stuck, to be trapped in a building where the the danger is beneath you. The only way to safety is through the fire, which you cannot pass. You're you're just stuck. And of course, smoke rises, it fills the building, it gets more and more disorienting. It just sounds awful.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Yeah. And I mean he was on floor eighty-four, and when the second plane hit, it impacted, like immediately impacted floor seventy-eight through eighty-five. So he really had to go through every floor that not only, of course, to get out, but all of those floors where the plane had struck directly.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Yeah.

Smoke, Despair, And The Urging Voice

Final Descent And Rescue

SPEAKER_00 4:39

It was just a nightmare. I'm gonna quote from Ron here, quote, all that was left in Lucid was my desire to see my wife, Mary, and my four beautiful children. Folks, I honestly thought that we were dying, he said. Ron sat down, joining the many people on the stairwell. But that's when Ron heard a man's voice, who told him to get up, quoting from Ron again, quote, that's when I heard it. Someone clearly and calmly guiding me to get up and come this way. The faithful, and I count myself among you, by the way, will have very little trouble understanding what that means. The more secular may believe it was my adrenaline-fueled synapses. Here's what I do know. If I ever hear a voice that clear, that calm, and that forceful telling me to get up, I'll do it. It made me get up, back on my feet, and I followed the voice back into the thickest of smoke and the fire. End quote. Hearing the voice and the encouragement was enough to get Ron out of the building. And just to pause here, this voice literally told him, get up, go through this thick smoke and fire, like everything that your instincts would tell you, like there's no way out, I'm just like there's no way through. This voice in his head said, You need to get up and go out now. He reported diminished awareness of pain during this period. He later reached a clear section of the stairwell and continued downward. Ron DiFrancisco encountered three firefighters ascending the stairwell. They instructed him to continue moving down. Approximately 54 minutes after the South Tower was struck, Ron exited from the building into the courtyard. He continued moving through the area surrounding the tower. Shortly before the building collapsed, a security guard directed him underneath the structure towards the church street exit. He encountered a friend named John. As the upper floors of the tower began to collapse, they ran towards the exit. Ron reported being struck on the head and losing consciousness. The South Tower collapsed 56 minutes after it was struck. And again, Ron exited the building 54 minutes after it was struck. Ron is believed to have been one of the last people to escape the building before its collapse. He regained consciousness several days later at St. Vincent's Hospital in Greenwich Village. He had burns covering approximately 60% of his body. He had been intubated and sustained a head laceration and suffered a fractured vertebrae. His contact lenses had melted to his eyes, and he survived his injuries. In the years following the attacks, Ron rarely spoke publicly about his experience, citing survivors' guilt and concern for the families of those who did not survive. He later chose to share his account publicly while speaking to groups and institutions. Quote, I had burns over 60% of my body. I had been intubated. I had a sizable laceration in my head and a broken bone in my back. My contact lenses were melted to my eyes, but I was alive, alive to join the rest of the world to try to make sense of that horrific day. End quote. Ron's experience has become one of the most well-documented instances of a phenomenon called third man factor. And while it seems like science fiction, it's been reported by many, many people. Again, around 200 known cases, typically in very extreme situations. Situations where survival doesn't seem likely or possible, and the person starts to give up hope.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

I actually remember this story. It was pretty famous.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

How did you hear about it?

SPEAKER_02 7:48

It's hard to say. I mean, this was so long ago.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

But but if memory serves, like the the voice that he heard was either his own or it was like really, really familiar or something.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Something that immediately just like made him trust it.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

I I I can't even imagine being in that situation.

Third Man In Culture And Reports

Shackleton’s Fourth Companion

SPEAKER_00 8:04

It's actually interesting because the first time I I also had heard this story a few times. The first time I heard it, and I can't remember where what that format was where I heard it, I had this version in my head that there was like a figure, like there was this third man that they were very aware of that like picked him up and was like, let's go, right? And that's why it was called this, because it was Ron, Mike, and then this third guy who wasn't Mike. Yeah. And I didn't see him in any of these quotes, and I'm trying to use a lot of his direct quotes to as sources in this episode. But that's something that I had taken away from previous encounters with this version, too, that it felt more physical than kind of these sources that I'm using are representing it. But but that National Geographic episode of whatever show that was that I talked about at the beginning, it actually has interviews with him in it. And that's a really interesting watch if you want to learn more about this and kind of hear him speaking about it directly. But third man factor isn't just a known human experience. It's something that's used in variation, in horror, and even more broadly in pop culture all of the time. But first, let's talk more about what third man factor actually is. The third man factor, or third person syndrome, describes situations in which people report seeing an unseen presence that offers support or guidance during a traumatic event. It's most commonly reported by mountain climbers, but has also been described by solo sailors, shipwreck survivors, and polar explorers. Today we're going to talk about some of the most famous examples of the third man factor. Between 1914 and 1917, Sir Ernest Shackleton attempted to cross the Antarctic.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Oh, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

I know. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Don't apologize.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

I feel like we've had our fill of winter horror.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Speak for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

A journey that ultimately failed, but is remembered for its demonstration of human endurance.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Well, yes, the of course it's remembered for the endurance of the name of his boat.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Only you would pick up on that.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

I don't know. It's a good little trivia fact there.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Yeah, you're very impressive.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

So are you.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

In his 1919 book, South, Sir Ernest Shackleton wrote that he believed an unseen presence accompanied him and his men during the final part of his 1914 to 1917 Antarctic expedition.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

And the name of his imaginary friend was lead poisoning.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

The expedition had been trapped in pack ice for over two years, and Alan Pack Ice is.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

I was about to ask you, Abby, do you remember what pack ice is?

SPEAKER_00 10:25

It's when the ice is all kind of in different shards, and then it starts to pack and pack and pack you in, and you just can't possibly move your boat.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Yeah, it's floating ice and eventually becomes a solid floor.

T. S. Eliot And The Term’s Origin

SPEAKER_00 10:38

If you go look at the East River right now, it's pretty. So back to the Antarctic. The expedition had been trapped in pack ice for over two years and faced extreme challenges while trying to reach safety. Shackleton wrote that during a 36-hour march over mountains and glaciers on South Georgia, quote, d during that long and racking march of 36 hours over the unnamed mountains and glaciers of South Georgia, it seemed to me often that we were four, not three, end quote. His account led other people who had experienced extreme hardship to report similar experiences. So Shackleton has taken a detour, right? A 36-hour hike into the wilderness to look for supplies and signs of life and whatever else. There's three men. And he said often in that sort of, again, extreme cold in the early 1900s, so they don't have gear that's really properly protecting them and all this stuff. That it felt like there was a fourth person with them.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Not a third, not a third man.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Well, they already had three. They had just had a bonus man. Bonus man. Bonus man.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Bonusman.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Bonusman. Poet T. S. Elliot was inspired by Shackleton's experience. Lines 359 to 365 of Elliot's 1922 poem, The Wasteland, were inspired by this expedition. This is all according to Elliot's notes. The poem's reference to third man is the origin of the term used to describe this phenomenon, which can occur even to a single person in danger.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

Well, there you go. But just wait, wait, wait. So the term third man came from the Shackleton expedition.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

It came from T. S. Elliot writing a poem about the Shackleton expedition.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Where Shackleton was imagining a fourth man.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

That's just confusing.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

So the poem itself is sort of about this ghostly presence or this, you know, again, what Shackleton describes as this unseen presence. Here are the lines of the poem. Quote, who is the third who walks beside you? When I count, there are only you and I together. But when I look ahead up the white road, there is always another one walking beside you.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Gliding wrapped in a brown mantle, hooded. I do not know whether a man or a woman, but who is that on the other side of you? End quote.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

That's cool.

Cave Diving Ordeal Of Stephanie Schwab

SPEAKER_00 12:48

A similar experience was described by mountain climber Joe Simpson in his 1988 book, Touching the Void. His book documents his near-death experience in the Peruvian Andes. Again, a lot of similar themes to the snow horror episodes. I know, I'm sorry. Simpson reports hearing a voice that encouraged and guided him as he crawled back to base camp after breaking his leg on Seula Grande and falling into a crevasse. Some journalists have linked his account to the idea of a guardian angel or an imagined companion. Stephanie Schwab is someone else with a similar story to tell, so she's also featured in this National Geographic video episode, and it's really fascinating to see her experience firsthand, again told by her directly. Stephanie Schwab is someone who has spent much of her life exploring underwater cave systems. She used to dive in caves called blue holes in the Bahamas with her husband. Unfortunately, her husband died. And this was about six weeks later. She had not returned to diving yet, and she decided today was the day. But she'd been afraid to dive alone since his death because they were diving partners. And again, she just felt to this calling on that day to prove to herself that she could dive again. She works as a geo-microbiologist, so doing these dives is also tied to her work.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Yeah, very cool, very impressive. So she decides today's the day. She goes out to dive, she gets all ready. She actually successfully reaches the bottom of the cave, no problem. Again, this is cave diving, so it's very claustrophobic. You can see a lot of video clips of this.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

I'd rather not, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

She reaches 98 feet in depth.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

That's very deep.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Right? Yes. I don't have you've you've dived before. I don't have like a sense of how deep it is.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

That's incredibly deep, especially in a cave. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

So like if when we go diving, right? Like sorry, we've never dove, but like if we go snorkeling off of a boat or something, that's like what 20 feet?

SPEAKER_02 14:37

If you are free diving without training, if you are just a casual person who wants to like give free diving a go, just think about swimming to the bottom of the deep end of a pool.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

It's really hard. Uh the the pressure alone is crazy. And that's what 15 feet, 20 feet?

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Maybe if it's in like a professional pool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

I'm thinking like an Olympic-sized swimming pool.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Yeah, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

So, you know, I obviously she has a breathing apparatus to go deeper than that. But when you are, you know, scuba diving, it's been so long since I've dove.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Yeah, I I don't remember exact benchmarks or or any benchmarks really. Uh but to go down like 50 feet is a is a lot. Because again, it's it's all about the the pressure. And so the other thing is like usually like you are descending directly down. If she's in a cave, she is going at a slant, she is meandering, it's back and forth, right? And she still descends to a depth of 100 feet below the surface. That's I can't even imagine how long that would take.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

You know what I think about often at night while I'm falling asleep?

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Harry Potter.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

The Mariana Trench.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Why? Because what about it?

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Because it's so freaking deep. Yeah, it's like 36,000 feet deep.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

And to me, it's inherently like it's the deepest part of the ocean, right? I'm pretty sure that's what it is. There's something so innately scary. And I love that I'm a big ocean gal. Big, big ocean nautical family. Love the ocean more than anything. Lakes freak me out. But being 36,000 feet and not knowing what's down there, I just feel like if there's things lurking in in this planet, which I believe that there are, they're there.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

Do you remember what being the fear of um deep underwater is?

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Traptomania. I get a lot of um what's is that the same word for when there's like things under the water that shouldn't be?

SPEAKER_02 16:31

That's submecophobia. Submecophobia. That's man-made things underwater.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

I was trying to get the exact definition of philosophia, and it is it's just the fear of deep water. Sure. So you don't have to be underwater to to be to be uh jostled by it. However, what also did popped up was megalo hydro philosophia. Whoa. Which is the the elevated version of this because it is the fear of large, often hidden objects or creatures underwater.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, and I think that's actually like if I was gonna have any water fear, it's that. Because even when I'm in a lake, when I'm swimming in a lake, I start to get like a little suspicious that there's some big thing under me watching me. That's how I feel in like a lake.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Anytime I'm in water where I can't see the bottom, yeah, I just think about what what if all of a sudden I just fall? You're basically, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

What do you mean fall?

SPEAKER_02 17:20

Like you're in the air.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Oh, you're like afraid of the distance between but like if you fall, you would die.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Yeah, but it's like fear of heights.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Right, that's so interesting.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Which you're in water.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Right, so you couldn't breathe though. Like you don't you want to be far from the ground.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Uh yeah, I guess so.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Because if you're on the ground, you're at the bottom and you're dead.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

But all you have to do is think about the fact that you're like uh a fatal fall away over the surface. And like it's just there's just a um, you know, there's just a fluid keeping you apart.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

It's so interesting. I have such an opposite reaction to the water because I feel like the water I float so easily and the water holds me, and I never feel like lighter and freer than when I'm I'm a sinker. Yeah, you you have a a strange buoyancy. But then when I'm especially when like a big wave comes, like a huge wave, and you get to kind of fall off the back of it, and it just feels like you're floating because you're not falling, but you're floating down. I find it to be the most thrilling. But I understand if my natural buoyancy was like 12 inches below the the water level that that would be different.

Ocean Fears And Depth Tangent

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Indeed. It's it's awful.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Well, James Cameron actually has made his way all the way to the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

He we went all the way to the bottom?

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Pretty much, I think. Yeah, it's like to the deepest, one of the deepest parts.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Right, because he had to go get the necklace.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

But what's even crazier to me than him going down is that people went down in like the 60s or even earlier. Like maybe in the 1800s, people went down. How? No, yeah, they had these little freaking machines, little submarine machines that they used.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Submersible.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Yeah, submersibles, yeah. I don't know, that's more impressive. Like James Cameron's so rich, you know, he and crazy, but like going down there in history with the old diving mask. I don't know, that's scary.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

You're telling me someone took their diving bell down to the Mariana Trench.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Okay, the first expedition, the first successful manned expedition to the bottom of the trench was January 23rd, 1960, by the U.S. Navy, Lieutenant Don Walsh and Swiss engineer Jacques Picard. And they reached the same depth that uh James Cameron reached in modern times.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Oh, I thought I thought I really thought he had set the record.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

No.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

I mean, he set the record for being the biggest loon.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

He's a loon?

SPEAKER_00 19:33

I think he's a bit of a loon.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

I mean, I I did see the new avatar. Well, he's good. He's a little nuts.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

I've been boycotting them, so.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Why? Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

All right. So let's get back to Stephanie Schwab, who's collecting samples, right? Because her job is that she's a geo-microbiologist. She's 98 feet deep. She's collecting samples from dust that had settled hundreds of years ago from the Sahara Desert, which is also How to get there. The Bahamas. Wild.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Was it from Mount Vesuvius?

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Could be. We'll have to ask her.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

I don't even know what where's Mount Vesuvius.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

In Italy. Anyway, okay, so Stephanie spends hours at the bottom of the cave collecting and then decides to head home. Being not used to diving with her partner who was in charge of the guideline, she suddenly starts to panic because she can't find the guideline.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Sure. Don't, yeah, don't do oh my god, you're under sorry, so she has a depth of nearly a hundred feet. Yep. She loses her guideline. Like, I'm sure she has lights, but there's no light available because it's a fucking cave. It's so disorienting. And the only way to like even know what you don't even know if like you have to go up, you know? Because like maybe you have to go down to go back up.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

And here's the other thing. According to her gauge, she looks down. She only has five minutes of air left.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Well, that's not great.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

She was sure that she was going to die.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

No shit. What terrible planning.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

She accepts it, right? She's like, okay, like this is it. This is there's no way that I'm gonna escape this logically. I'm a scientist. This is it. Like she's very sure. But then something happens. The cave starts to brighten. She suddenly feels less isolated. She feels more in focus. At the height of panic and anger, suddenly Stephanie is convinced that somebody's in the cave with her. She's very sure that it's her husband, Rob. Rob used to tell her, believe you can, believe you can't. Either way, you're right. Stephanie describes feeling this presence of her husband in that moment, telling her to calm down. She takes a breath, she searches the cave, she finds the guideline. She isn't sure if it was spiritual or biochemical, but she knows whatever happened saved her life.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Writer John Geiger wrote the third man factor, surviving the impossible, and has found over 200 accounts of similar stories in his research. He says that what he calls third man factor may be what people have described throughout history as guardian angels. A survey from 2008 found that on average, 55% of Americans accept Guardian Angels as fact.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

What percentage?

SPEAKER_00 21:57

55%.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

55.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

I believe that's.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Really high.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Do you remember the show, one of the best shows ever from Aaron Swork in the newsroom?

SPEAKER_02 22:05

I've never even heard of that.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Made me want to change my entire life.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

But this is the why am I the why is this the first time I'm ever hearing?

Finding The Guideline With Five Minutes Air

SPEAKER_00 22:11

It's happened years before we met. But I believe that that show starts with the same fact. It was like a survey that was like, what percentage of Americans believe in angels or ghosts and shit like that? And then, like, what percentage think like America's doing a good job or like America's the best country?

SPEAKER_02 22:27

And like when was this poll taken?

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Let's let's look.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Because maybe Touched by an Angel was like a primetime show at the time?

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Okay, I found an ABC news article from September 18th, 2008, about the survey. It was done by Baylor University's Institute for Studies of Religion. They polled 1700 respondents of diverse religious faiths.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

So practicing right.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

So of course it's a little bit skewed.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Oh yeah. And the other fact is that 92% of Americans believe in God.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

I don't know if that's accurate anymore. Yeah, we need a new survey.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Okay, so 46% believed that they had their own guardian angels of this group of surveyed people.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Oh, so not just guardian angels in general, but they have a personal one.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

55% believe that guardian angels were fact. 46 believe that they had their own.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

So what is causing this phenomenon, you ask? Is it angels? Is it a traumatic response in our brains? Let's talk about some of the theories.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

I think it's DMT.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

I knew you were gonna say that. Tell us what DMT is, Alan.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

So DMT is the active ingredient in ayahuasca.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Uh, but also it is a naturally occurring chemical in everyone's brain. And it is famously the death chemical, which floods your brain as you are dying. It is a very strong hallucinogen.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Or, or it unlocks your ability to see other dimensions. So that's my theory. Yep. Anyway, okay. So, and you know what? You know what this is telling me? Okay, this is something I've wanted to write about for a long time, and maybe this will be an episode.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Newsroom.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

I was thinking it would be an essay. Like this idea of heralds. Heralds? Heralds. Heralds. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

Like my uncle.

Guardian Angels And Public Belief

SPEAKER_00 24:06

No, like heralds of truth, like heralds who are here to like a herald of justice. Yeah, like like the Mothman is a herald, right? He was here to warn, according to my belief. He was here to warn the people of West Virginia that this bridge was going to collapse. These people, these like essence beings, whatever they are that our people are experiencing, are here to warn people and save them. They're heralds.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

So, like uh the Silver Surfer is the herald of Galactus.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

I don't know anything about that, but I trust you on it.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

So, one explanation for third man theory is psychological dissociation under extreme stress.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

There it is.

Competing Explanations: Mind Or Mystical

SPEAKER_00 24:44

During life-threatening situations such as starvation, exhaustion, hypothermia, or isolation, the brain may separate conscious awareness from fear or pain as a coping mechanism. This can result in the perception of another presence that offers guidance or reassurance, even though no external entity is present. Another explanation is a stress-induced hallucination. Severe physical deprivation and lack of sleep can disrupt normal brain function, leading to auditory or visual experiences that feel real. In these cases, the perceived presence may be a hallucination created by the brain to maintain focus and motivation when survival is at risk. So both of these are sort of like survival triggers. That something in your body is like, you're failing at surviving. We're gonna override.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

I mean, it it makes sense. It helps people survive, and that's just Darwinism.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Right, right, exactly. Some researchers suggest that fun that the phenomenon is linked to the brain's social cognition systems. Humans are neurologically wired to expect social interaction, and in extreme isolation, the brain may generate a sense of companionship to compensate. This presence can take on a supportive role, mirroring how social bonds normally help regulate stress and decision making. That's really interesting, I think, coming out of our isolation episode. A neurological explanation involves altered activity in the temporal junction.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Oh good job pronouncing that.

Dissociation And Survival Focus

Social Brain And The Need For Company

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Thank you. A brain region involved in self-perception and body awareness. I'm not the best at pronunciation, so sometimes I need a little phone or friend. Disruptions in this area, which can occur under extreme physical or emotional strain, may cause a person to perceive another entity nearby, even though the experience originates internally. Dr. Michael Persinger was a Canadian neuroscientist known for his research on religious, mystical, and anomalous experiences, including phenomena related to the third man factor. He proposed that the sensation of an unseen presence could be explained by brain activity rather than external or supernatural causes. Persinger argued that these experiences were linked to activity in the temporal lobes, areas of the brain involved in memory, emotion, and the sense of self. According to his theory, stress, fatigue, and sensory deprivation, or environmental factors, could disrupt normal temporal lobe function, leading the brain to generate the perception of another presence nearby. Persinger is best known for developing the God helmet, a device that applied weak magnetic fields to the brain. He reported that some participants experienced a presence, the sense of a presence, feelings of being watched, or religious or spiritual sensations while wearing the device. He interpreted these results as evidence that such experiences could be produced by neurological stimulation rather than external entities.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Yeah, hang on. And how much of this was produced by the fact he's like, okay, I need you to put on the God helmet. Just tell me what you feel. Do you feel God?

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Well, who knows what he calls it to them, but I do think what he's doing essentially is pumping very low magnetic pulses into somebody's brain.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

DMT.

Temporal Lobe Theories And Presence

SPEAKER_00 27:52

No, into somebody's brain. And it's triggering. I think like the point is people skin whatever experience how like in a way that they know. If you're somebody who's super religious and you have some kind of experience you can't explain, you're maybe your first thought isn't like, oh, that's some kind of neurological whatever. Your first thought is like, oh, this feels like God, because that's what you know.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

I really wish I had all my facts here, but there's a big experiment about magnetic fields on the human body. And the answer is they it does nothing. Like it that they just don't they have very little effect on the human body.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

So low level, you know, like th think about it. Like a human can be right next to an electromagnet, a very, very strong magnetic field. And think about an MRI. There's a reason why they're so scrupulous about making sure you have like no metal implants or anything in your body before going to an MRI, because like otherwise you're gonna have the little piece of shrapnel in your leg that you forgot about uh fly out at the speed of sound and make a giant exit wound. If you can go through that and you don't start hallucinating, I can't imagine that a low-leveling a low-level magnetic field is gonna have much of an effect.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Okay, so what you're saying is that these experiences are supernatural.

Persinger’s God Helmet Debate

SPEAKER_02 29:06

I think that this there's the only explanation is either DMT or Mothman.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

I understand.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

There is no in between.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Persinger suggested that in extreme survival situations, similar neurological disruptions could occur naturally, producing the third man experience. While his work has been influential in discussions of the third man factor, it has also been controversial. Some researchers have had difficulty replicating his experimental results, and his conclusions remain debated within neuroscience.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Well, yeah, so you know, d stress does crazy, crazy things to be like we we are just walking chemical reactions. Like that is our entire I mean that's our entire uh physical being is just a bunch of chemical reactions.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

So yeah, when your brain gets flooded with endorphins uh or adrenaline or all this stuff that reduces only that that comes out in extreme stress, your things are gonna be different. One of the reasons why like recreational hallucinogens are so potent isn't necessarily like the chemicals doing all the heavy lifting, it's also the stuff that your brain is naturally releasing in response to the chemicals. Right. So yeah. If there I think there's something very interesting about the fact there's a repeating pattern of seeing this other entity.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Well, maybe your body's releasing, and uh, we're not scientists, obviously. Doesn't even need to be said, but but what if your body is releasing some DMT because it thinks you're dead?

SPEAKER_02 30:32

There you go.

Culture Shapes Meaning After Survival

Film Examples: Gravity To Adrift

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Listen, give me an award. Stephanie Schwab, again, the woman from the cave diving, had done tests with Persinger. He's since passed away. So they wanted to see if they could recreate the third man in his lab rather than in an actual survival situation by pumping her with, you know, magnetic waves or whatever. And they were not able to do this. Not totally. Finally, some interpretations are cultural or spiritual rather than scientific. Individuals may interpret the experience through personal belief systems, describing the presence as a spirit, guardian angel, or divine figure. While these interpretations vary widely, they reflect how meaning is often assigned after the experience rather than explaining its biological cause. But there are some very interesting ways that this type of phenomena appears in horror and film.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

There, okay, bringing it home.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Bringing it home, baby. One example is Gravity from 2013.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Oh, yeah, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

There's a moment when astronaut Ryan Stone, who is played by Sandra Bullock, briefly interacts with somebody that is believed to have been dead.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Okay, good. It's a great movie. Uh, we're just gotta stop it there, because no spoilers, please.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Sure, but again, this portrayal is often linked to third man phenomena.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

That makes sense. It's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

We see in other survival stories like Adrift from 2018, which is a disaster sort of ocean survival story, the protagonist experiences moments with her lost companion that later turn out to be hallucinations. I'll also just say on this kind of like ocean theme, my uncle had sailed around the world a few times by himself, solo sailed, and had hallucinated other people on the boat and told us later about them, which obviously he knew later were hallucinations, but at the time, you know, so I have like a personal family experience with this.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

And also in Castaway from 2000, the stranded Tom Hanks creates an anthropomorphized companion, Wilson, to cope with isolation. And while this is not supernatural, it function it functions like a third presence. He's filling of an emotional void.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Sure. But this is no different. This is one of my favorite movies.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

I know. You've I don't it's you love Castor.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

It's so good.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

I've never seen it.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

There's nothing supernatural about this. This is just a man's will to live and the little buddy that he could.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

And what if he didn't, but the point is he needed the little buddy.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Yeah, but there's no That's the point. There's no guardian angel.

Wilson And The Psychology Of Companions

SPEAKER_00 32:58

And of course, 127 Hours from 2010, which tells the story of a solo survival ordeal. And the main character has visions and imagined conversations that can be again interpreted as internal coping mechanisms. Touching the Void from 2003 is this docudrama that's based on the book we talked about earlier, which was a true climbing incident. This film includes moments where the climber hears guiding voices in inner direction, while especially while under extreme dress, which is literally inspired by a reported third man experience. There are also examples where the presence is more psychological or symbolic. So, for example, Life of Pi from 2012, the protagonist's relationship with an imagined companion reflects survival psychology and inner support.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

You mean the tiger's not real?

Black Phone And Helpful Voices

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Movies can be whatever you want them to be. If the tiger's real for you, then the tiger's real. Aw, geez. I change the endings of books and movies all the time in my head. Really? If I don't like it. Yeah. The Guardian from 2006 is a survival sea rescue movie where a character refers to an unseen figure helping him. But if we open up the trope a little wider, there are so many horror films where the living is aided by helpful spirits or guardians. Horror often assumes unseen presences are hostile, but when this presence is protective or a herald instead, it shifts kind of this fear from the supernatural and kind of changes it usually in this format into like the fear of isolation or something else, right? There's some other external factor. A really good example of this, one of my favorite movies, is The Frighteners from 1996, which kind of tells, which tells this story in a very simplified way about ghosts working alongside the protagonist to help stop an evil force.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

I don't think I've ever seen it.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

Oh, it's fantastic. What lies beneath is another example of this stir of echoes, the pact, the black phone, and ghosts, just to name a few. Let's talk a little bit about the black phone from 2021, because it's one of the best horror examples that I could find of Third Man Factor.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

In the film, the voices of murdered children communicate with the protagonist through a disconnected phone. Did you like the black phone? Yeah, it's okay. Yeah, it was okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

I know the second one's out now.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

I'm surprised they made a sequel. It was such a contained little story.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

It uh my understanding is it was very popular.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

It was written by Joe King, right? Or it was based on a story by Joe King, I think.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

Uh, you mean what's his pen name?

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Joe Hill. Oh, sorry, Joe Hill. Stephen King's son. Yeah, it was originally a horror short story by Joe Hill.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

It's that I think that's my issue. It seems like it's a short story. Yeah. And then it got it got fleshed out into a feature.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

It got stretched too thin.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

Yeah, which I don't know, sometimes works fine, but it just wasn't for me.

Ghosts As Guides, Not Threats

SPEAKER_00 35:41

And in the movie, the voices provide warnings, instructions, emotional support, trying to help this character survive the situation that he's in. And just to be very clear, in Blackphone, the presence is very explicitly supernatural, but it mirror the behavior, whether it's supernatural or whatever, is the same, right? The result is the same. The voices only appear under extreme confinement and threat, and they're doing good to try to help this character survive.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

Have you ever seen the TV show Legion?

SPEAKER_00 36:11

No.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

I think you would really, really enjoy the world of it.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Oh, intriguing.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

It was a FX show, and the main character tr is like we open in like a uh a mental institution.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Because you know, he's being heavily medicated and sedated for being a parano a paranoid schizophrenic, where he's just constantly hallucinating, seeing people who aren't there, all that.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

You you learn pretty quickly that there's far there's far more truth going on than him just hallucinating because he's a very powerful psychic that can interact with the dead.

Near-Death Patterns And Outcomes

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Ooh, I do like that. The Sixth Sense from 1999 is is another example. Although often discussed as a ghost story, the film presents spirits who act as guides rather than threats. The child protagonist receives information from spirits that help him understand danger and protect himself and others. The ghosts are frightening in appearance, of course, but their intent is not malicious. This again sort of reframes this like supernatural trope that we see in movies all the time, and it's something closer in function to third man factor than a typical horror movie about the supernatural.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

So we've yeah, we've kind of just changed it to ghosts that only one person can see.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Sure. I mean I mean, but that's fine.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

It's it's no different.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Like ghosts with a point.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

I mean, yeah, there's no difference between that and a guardian angel.

Why The Mind Urges Survival

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Right, right. That's uh exactly. All of it's just like reskinned to like what you're into. Yep. If you're into religion, if you're into the supernatural, if you're into science, like yeah, exactly. One of my favorite pastimes is researching near-death experiences. And I think third man factor fits very well into that. The third man factor sits at the intersection of survival, psychology, and faith. Across disasters, expeditions, and near-death experiences, people from very different backgrounds describe the same core experience. The sense that someone was present when no one should have been there. And for some, that presence is understood as neurological, a function of a brain under extreme stress trying to keep the body alive. For others, it is interpreted as spiritual, protective, or deeply personal. What makes these accounts notable is not whether the presence was real in a physical sense, but that it was effective, right? That all of these people survived the situation they were in because of whatever this thing was. In many cases, people credit this experience with giving them clarity, motivation, or direction that they needed to survive and they otherwise believed that they could not. Whether understood as dissociation, hallucination, or faith, the outcome is the same. People have survived in moments when there was no hope left. Stories like Ron DiFrancisco's, Shackleton's, Joe Simpson's, and Stephanie Schwabs remind us that extreme situations can produce experiences that challenge what we think we know today. The third man factor remains difficult to define precisely because of the very extreme and nuanced situations in which it arises, right? It's very hard to reproduce. They tried to reproduce it in a lab, but they couldn't do it. So it's very difficult to ever be able to scan what's happening in the brain in those moments unless you happen to have neuro, whatever, neuro trackers on Stephanie Schwab's brain while she's diving and it goes wrong.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Sure.

Closing Reflections

SPEAKER_00 39:25

In the end, the question may not be whether these presences were angels, brain activity, or the supernatural. The more important question is why the human mind, when pushed to the limits, so often creates something that urges survival.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

This was this was a fun one.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Thanks for being on the journey with me. I know it pushes you a little bit when we talk about things like this.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Why?

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Because it's unprovable, it's supernatural, it's well documented. Yeah, well.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

But no, this this seems like a recurring phenomena. Uh, but also it's not even the people that it's happening to, they're not like, this is this supernatural thing. It's like this is very much just could be a chemical response that happens pretty reliably in these situations.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

No, I think they're all interpreting it differently.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

Yeah, it's just a very interesting thing. But no, but the w the people that it happens to are not making these claims. They're saying it absolutely could be one or the other.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

No, some some believe that it's certain things.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Well, there's always gonna be nut jobs.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Okay, so Alan, what's your take? You think it's DMT slowly leaking into the brain? What do you think it is?

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Uh I do not think it's guardian angels.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Oh, wait, I don't know if we close this loop. The point I reason why I started talking about Mothman too. DMT has been heavily associated with Mothman because some people think that he is just an extra-dimensional being and that DMT, so that there's this like realm potentially, I'm really really coming across as insane in this moment, but there's this realm, other dimension of creatures who are actively trying to save and help us, and you can only access them, like you know, consciously when you have a little bit of DMT soaking in.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

We're not actively trying to save us, it's the Mothman was it was we're we're gonna do the whole Mothman episode again now. Uh it it's it with it's the the ants analogy of like you can't explain physics to a cockroach. Well, no, if an ant comes over and says, you know, it starts yelling your name, like you look at it because like, well, that's weird. And then if he's like, hey, kill that evil ant, you're like, yeah, sure. But then once they start getting all about ant politics, you're like, I'm way over this.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Right. Sure. I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Yeah, there maybe we're a curiosity at best.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

I mean, what if it was birds?

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Birds?

SPEAKER_00 41:47

What if it was cats? What if it was something that's a little bit bigger than ants? I think your sympathy is more apparent.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

I think your estimation of our relationship to higher dimensional beings is far too kind.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

Fair enough. Well, anyway, thank you all so much for being here. This was a fun one. Hope everyone is staying safe, staying spooky, and we'll talk to you next week. Bye. Bye.