Episode 184 - The Babysitter and The Man Upstairs

This week Abby and Alan sit down with Dan Roberts to discuss the history of The Babysitter and The Man Upstairs urban legend and When A Stranger Calls (1979). 

Follow Dan on Substack: https://substack.com/@drob91

Follow Abby on Substack: https://substack.com/@lunaticsproject

Get Lunatics Merch here. Join the discussion on Discord. Check out Abby's book Horror Stories. Available in eBook and paperback. Music by Michaela Papa, Alan Kudan & Jordan Moser. Poster Art by Pilar Keprta @pilar.kep.

Transcript

Welcome And Movie Reactions

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Lunatics Radio Hour Podcast. My name is Abby Brinker, and today I am sitting here with Alan Kudan.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Hello.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

And with Dan Roberts.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Hi there.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Dan, thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Thank you guys for having me.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

Well, it's a very special episode.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Tell us, Alan, what the episode is.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

I I don't know what the episode is. I just know that we had to first watch the movie when a stranger calls from 1979.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Which we just finished watching.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

We did, and I never watched this movie without Dan, which is why he's here.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Okay, tell us first impressions of the movie.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

We're gonna get into it, of course, but everyone's looking at me, so I'll give my first impressions. I I really enjoyed it. It's it's interesting. The movie feels like three, like there's like three kind of chunks of of movie. And I liked all the chunks independent. I felt like there was it like didn't segue in my head great, but overall positive feelings, which was good because I'm not a big fan of the remake. Yeah. Um, so I was pleasantly surprised, I'll say that.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

I I I will agree wholeheartedly uh there was very little glue between section one, two, and three. We we try not to do spoilers about movies, but it's kind of hard to discuss this movie without telling you what happens. As stranger calls and bad stuff happens.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

The title is a spoiler.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Yeah, it really is. So like you had it common. But uh part one and three are about your same protagonist and your same antagonist, and part two is just what? It's just m m character work?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

It's a detective story and a psychological journey. Yeah. Uh about uh a man who's dealing with psychosis. Uh-huh. During the second part, I wasn't sure who I was rooting for. There's there's a private detective who's you know, not afraid to to break the rules a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

And there's a murder.

The Urban Legend Origin Story

SPEAKER_01 2:17

There's a man dealing with some serious psychosis who's um who is a murderer. He's a bad guy. But he's clearly got some kind of multiple personality disorder or something going on where he's he's disconnecting from himself when he's committing these murders. There's an interesting moment where he's looking at himself in a mirror and he can't quite reconcile who he is. So I started to feel kind of bad for him, if I'm being honest. Uh not that that changes the fact he shouldn't be murdering people. No, murdering is wrong. That is.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Well, here's the thing, boys. I have a reason for you why I think the movie feels disjointed and broken into three parts, but we're not gonna get to it for a little while.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

There's an urban legend from the 1960s that centers around a teenage babysitter plagued by mysterious phone calls. The calls are coming from inside the house. And while there is a real case that we're going to talk about today, this urban legend didn't come from just one case, but from a cultural fear that went on to shape horror cinema forever. Today we are talking about the babysitter and the man upstairs.

SPEAKER_03 3:23

This is a real story?

SPEAKER_00 3:24

It's an urban legend.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

Urban legend, okay. So the whole trope of the killers calling from inside the house. I thought that was from Scream.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Well, obviously, all of these things came before Scream.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

They did. But so is this the progenitor of all these? It sure is. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

And Scream is an inherently trying to be sort of meta meta. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

So I mean Let's talk about our sources.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

I don't like to do this often, but there is a Wikipedia entry on the Babysitter and the Man Upstairs.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

You love Wikipedia.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

A fandom wiki on the same topic, a Snopes article on the Babysitter and the Man Upstairs, a Shadow and Lore article on the same, and an article by Ashley DeLeon on the lineup.com, The Babysitter, The Gruesome Murder of Janet Christman. An urban legend is a widely circulated story, often presented as true, that typically involves unusual or frightening events. These stories are usually shared through word of mouth or media. They change over time and they reflect common fears, beliefs, or cultural anxieties, even though they are not verified as factual. And of course, like in modern era or like 10 years ago, creepypasta was kind of how a lot of urban legends were perpetuated. But before that, it was it was like campfire tales, word of mouth, you know, whispers to your friends at the school bus.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Whispers to your friends at the school bus. I like that.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

You know, painting a picture.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Like what would be a modern version? It like like the thin men or the the skinny man is like the one that comes to mind from Slenderman, yes. Slender Man. That's sorry. The thin man is a movie. The thin man is a movie from like it is.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

It's a detective movie. Um, yeah, Slender Man is a really great example.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Is there like a new one?

SPEAKER_03 5:07

Oh, by now. Well, now I think we're getting into what's the the stuff you the with the liminal space?

SPEAKER_00 5:14

The back rooms.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

The back rooms. Sure. That's kind of hitting more of the zeitgeist of weird, creepy internet culture.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Yeah, that's like very highly specific. I mean, I guess like the language now is internet culture. You know, like that's how things are shared.

SPEAKER_04 5:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah. So backrooms for sure. Slenderman. There's a really creepy one that's probably from the same era as Slenderman.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

I love I just got you to say Slenderman. Slenderman? Yeah, John Jonathan Slenderman.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Jeff the Killer. Have you seen that? No.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

No, it's Jeff the Killer.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Jeff the Killer is again like another Reddit urban legend that is like someone escaped I don't remember off the top of my head, but like someone escaped from some kind of facility, and you know, there's like crazy pictures that circulate on Reddit and people write creepypasta about it.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

Mike Myers.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

No, Michael Myers.

SPEAKER_03 6:02

Mike Myers did uh Austin Powers. Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Popular examples include the kidney heist, organ harvesting.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Killer in the back seat, and Slenderman.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

Yeah, I mean kidney harvesting is terrifying.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

The blue star tattoo rumor. I don't know what that is. What's that? Oh, the elevator game is one.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

The elevator game is one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_03 6:20

No, no, go back to the the blue star tattoo. What's that?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

I just don't think I mean uh have you guys done anything about the elevator game? A long, long time ago. I I that's one of my favorite things I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

Well what what's the deal? What the I I know we talked about, I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

If you go in an elevator, it has to be in a building that's like a certain like it's like gonna be like ten or eleven stories or something. Uh and you hit the buttons in a sequence. Yep. And if and if you do it correctly, you ac you you end up in an alternate reality.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

And there was a famous sort of true crime case that made the elevator game more popular because Eliza Lamb was in a hotel in LA and ended up, you know, there's all this like creepy footage of her before she died and was found in the water tower on top of the building. Oh, yeah, yeah. Of her sp hitting the buttons in a f in a strange way, which was her having, again, some kind of psychosis, but people were like, oh, she was trying to do the elevator ritual, and it like became it had like a second wave of of interest.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

I remember you talking about this because like how do you end up in the water tower?

SPEAKER_00 7:21

It's a very famously unsolved case. So the blue star tattoo urban legend is a legend that claims that temporary lick and stick star-shaped tattoos were soaked in LSD and were being distributed to children to get them hooked on drugs.

Janet Christman And An Unsolved Case

SPEAKER_03 7:36

I heard that's true. Uh that's kind of that's a fun one.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

But at the center of this urban legend is a true and horrifying murder. So we're going to start there first. And generally, before Alan can say it, uh-huh. I tried to avoid true crime on this podcast, but in this case, it's really essential to the history of this very important horror trope. So we're going to talk about it. Janet Christman was born on March 21st, 1936. She was one of three daughters, the oldest of her sisters. Along with her parents, Charles and Lula Christman, the family lived in Columbia, Missouri. Columbia was known for being a small college town. As beloved and notable members of the community, the Christman family ran a restaurant called Ernie's Cafe and Steakhouse and lived in an apartment above it. In 1950, Janet Christman was 13 years old and an eighth-grade student at Jefferson Junior High School. She was generally considered responsible and reliable with a strong work ethic and was frequently hired as a babysitter. So one thing that's often noted about her is that she appeared physically older than her age, more developed than most girls her age.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Which led to like unwanted attraction from older men inappropriately so.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

Oh, I I thought you were gonna say gets her more jobs uh in positions of authority.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

If only. She continued to focus on school and typical activities for her age. On Saturday, March 18th, 1950, Janet agreed to babysit three-year-old Gregory Ramick, a child she regularly cared for. Even though she had been invited to a party that night, she decided instead to take the babysitting job.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

That's the responsible thing to do. That's right. Strong work ethic, like you said.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

That's right. She was saving money to finish paying for a suit that she planned to wear for Easter.

SPEAKER_03 9:23

What a suit? A bunny suit.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Like a burgundy suit.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Like a burgundy bunny suit? Not a bunny suit.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Janet arrived at the Rannock home at approximately 7 30 that night. Gregory, the kid, was already asleep when she arrived, with the radio playing in his room. His parents, Ed and Anne, told her the child wouldn't need anything during the night. She was just there in case of an emergency. Ed, the father, left a loaded shotgun near the front door before they left.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

As you do.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Seems really unhelpful. Janet remained alone in the house with the child. The weather was bad that night. It was raining, there was sleet and strong winds, and temperatures dropped into the mid-twenties. At approximately 10 35 p.m., Deputy Ray McCowan received a phone call from a girl who was screaming and asking for help, but the call ended before the officer could get any more information. McCowan believed the caller was in distress, but he couldn't trace the call because the telephone's company switchboard was closed at that hour. No further calls were received. Around 1 35 a.m., the Ramex arrived back home. And as he approached, Ed realized that the front light was on and the door was unlocked.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

I'm gonna give a quick content warning for the next 20 seconds or so. 13-year-old Janet was found dead. She had also been beaten, raped, and was strangled to death.

SPEAKER_03 10:42

Well, I feel bad about the bunny suit comments now.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

But why were the can I Yes, please? Did they say like what the parents are doing? They were at a party. They were at a okay. 135.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

It's kinda late, right? It's a little bit late. Yeah. For a 13-year-old girl. Listen, I'm not blaming the parents, but it's kind of late.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Well, I mean, that's the other thing that's weird. We have to put on, you know, our our hindsight kind of glasses. Like, you know, certain things that we would never, you know, that most people would never do now. Totally fine back in the day. This is what, 1950?

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

It does feel, you know, if because then you send in the one the 13-year-old girl home at 135, too.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Well, the dad would drive her home.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Well, yeah. But it's still a late night for a 13-year-old.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

I know. She's trying to save up for her suit.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

She's 13. She's the legal adult in the Jewish community.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

A suit for Easter. Yeah. Jewish Easter.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Clearly, she's a responsible person. If she's saving money to buy a suit for Easter. Yeah. Not dru not saving up to buy a blue star LSD.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

It's a good callback, I was about to make it.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

So, as often happens, the investigation encountered problems early on. This is a tale as old as time. The Boone County Sheriff's Department and the Columbia Police Department disputed which agency had authority over the case. Poor coordination and communication between the two departments hindered progress. At the same time, residents of Columbia were alarmed by the crime. In the years prior, the town had experienced multiple incidents, including prowling and voyeurism, sexual assaults and a murder. Although those cases had been closed, Janet Crispin's killing raised concerns about whether the earlier incidents had been fully resolved. Investigators later focused on a suspect named Robert Mueller, who had been 27 years old at the time. He was acquainted with both Janet and the Ramack family, and had previously hired her as a babysitter. On the night of the murder, he was at the same gathering as the Ramuk, so the children's parents, where they had been playing cards. He left before they did, stating that he needed to return home to care for a sick child, though his timeline was later questioned. Reportedly, there were about two hours of his time that were unaccounted for. So again, remember how when the ramex returned they found that the porch light was on and the front door was unlocked.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

So the investigators thought that maybe Janet had opened the door for somebody. Investigators also noted that a side window had been broken using a garden hoe, which was later found inside the house. So this potential suspect had a reputation for inappropriate behavior towards women, including young girls. Investigators identified him as a suspect and brought him in for questioning. However, procedural issues occurred during the interrogation, as they tend to do, and he was released and not charged in connection with the case. The murder remains unsolved.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Janet was buried on March 21st, 1950, her 14th birthday. And this is a particularly heartbreaking detail from the lineup article. But she was dressed for burial in the burgundy suit she had been saving up her money for.

Babysitting Fears That Ring True

SPEAKER_01 13:55

I knew it was coming. As soon as you said this is gonna get rough, I was like, oh, she got buried in the maroon suits.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Despite how often this case is linked to the urban legend, there's no evidence it directly inspired it. But the similarities are hard to ignore. It's a real life example of so many girls' fears coming to a horrible reality. Did you guys babysit?

SPEAKER_01 14:16

I volunteered in a lot of nurseries. Um like at church. Like here's the the for for f I haven't been on the podcast in a while. But when you grow up religious, right, if you want to secretly not have to get listened to a sermon, what you can do is volunteer in the nursery or the the uh you know wherever they're babysitting.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Oh, like during services stuff.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

To get out to get out of having having to sit through a sermon. I understand. So that's what I would do.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Allah, did you babysit?

SPEAKER_03 14:46

Uh no, I I can't say that I have.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Yeah. And it shows.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

The other thing I did one time was I was my aunt used to have these big blowout parties where the adults would all get smashed and I would be in charge of lifeguarding the pool with absolutely no lifeguarding experience. I just wasn't plastered.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Until I was like 18 years old and still getting the same job and I was getting plastered. And that's when like I that was like, okay, I can't I gotta retire from lifeguarding.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Well, that's a responsible choice.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

I I like that you say retire, not quit. It's like, you know, that's it for me. I could come back. I'm leaving the workforce, getting my pension.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

I not that anyone asked, babysat a lot. It was like a full-time job for me. It shows. Yeah, thank you. And I will say, like a lot of the fears of, you know, when a stranger calls or other movies that use this trope feel like I used to be, I would sit alone in these houses I've never been in before with kids I never met because they were sleeping. And even if you've been back and you or you knew the kids, you have this like weird sense of responsibility to keep these children alive, even though you are yourself a child. And you're in my case in the woods in these houses you've never been in, you don't there's creaky noises and stuff happening. And it's like this weird thing of like you don't want to call the parents because you you know you'll be bad at your job if something happens. But like sometimes there there are things like the power goes out or somebody comes to the door, whatever it is, and it's this weird, I don't know, it's like this weird isolated responsibility for people who are really young. I feel like and nanny'd also in the city, and that was different. You know, there's people that could hear you, like if there's an emergency, you don't really feel like you're that alone. But when you're in like a house in the woods in Connecticut with a bunch of kids, you're kind of like, man, I'm I'm 14. Like, what am I supposed to do in a case of an emergency? Like, all you really can do is call the cops.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

No, you grabbed a loaded shotgun by the door. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

That's right. They left it, I left it there for a reason. Uh no, I thought about this w so I watched the first 25 minutes of this movie before we all got started. Watch it twice today. And then we and then I rewatched it with you guys. When I was watching the first the first time, I all I could think about for Carol Kane was, you know, girls of a certain age, if they're or like, you know, boys of a certain age, I suppose, if you're babysitting, it's your first time, you know, like a you may maybe been alone at your own house, but you know your own house. You sort of know, you know, the what you're supposed to do in a in a certain scenario, and you know the house. You're in a strange house, and you're responsible. All you know to do is sort of what the parents who left told you. And in this movie, the the one of the funnier things is like the parents cannot wait to get out of the house. They're like doing everything they can to give this girl as little information as possible before they walk out the door.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Modern parents.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

And they're like, and don't you dare check on those kids.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Yeah, don't check on the kids. We just put them down. For God's sake, don't wake them up.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

Can we I'm sorry, can we just reflect on the phrase put them down? I I know a number of uh parents that use that phrase and it just sounds so weird. Yeah. It's like sorry, yeah, I j I I just put my daughter down.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Yeah, you're right. Maybe we can.

SPEAKER_03 18:03

I don't spend a lot of time around children.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Oh, that shows. So I yeah, I was like, I completely empathize with Carol Kane. The part that shocked me a little bit is she goes she's getting these, she's getting harassed by somebody on the phone, and there's not much you can do. She calls the she calls the police, they're like, Well, sorry, we can't do much for you.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

But they can send they could send an officer over for a drive-by, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Well, what's he gonna do? Answer the phone?

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Good, yeah, you're right. I don't I don't know. You're right. No laws were broken. There's no law that says you can't call someone.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Un until he says, I want your blood all over me. That to me sounds pretty threatening.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

That seems suspicious.

Why The Legend Spread In Suburbs

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Immediately after that is when they call her and say the phone call came from inside the house. Yeah. Which leads me to the question I have for Abby, which is why is the myth that the guy's already in the house if the standing precedent we have for this myth is a guy come leaving a party early and breaking in.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Thanks for redirecting us. Perfect segue. So again, we're gonna get to one of Stranger Calls later in the episode. Let's talk about the urban legend now. Great question, Dan. So a partial answer before we get into the urban legend a little bit deeper is that the Janet case that I just talked about is an example of other cases and more importantly, a general fear of things that were happening at the time. So let me explain what I'm talking about. It's not sort of like one-to-one with the urban legend, it's a piece of inspiration, among other things. Okay. For one thing, babysitting was on the rise in the 1960s. So it wasn't always so, right? It was becoming more and more of a common job for teenagers. There was also an uptick in violence and with the evening news, an awareness of violence in suburbs, right? That was something that was new. This was like again.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

The evening news was new?

SPEAKER_00 19:56

I'm thinking about like Vietnam too, right? Vietnam was the first time people really watched a war on TV. Sure. This was the first time if somebody's found dead down the street, there's footage to some extent of something. Like, and so there's this newfound fear of your neighbor that's happening because suddenly you can see that. You know, and there was always like newspapers and photos and things, but seeing it, I think, on the news is different.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Definitely. And to some extent, I mean, some of this stuff is always happening throughout history and just is under-reported. Yes. But now it's almost over-reported. That there's a sensational aspect. Almost it's always gonna get reported. There's a sensational aspect to it. People are interested in it's making people worried, upset.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

It's also giving people it's gonna get reported. It's and then it's going to get reposted. Then AI bots are going to scrape it and reposte it as new content. Then other A bots, AI bots scrape that and post it as even more stories, and suddenly you have an epidemic of one thing that may or may not have happened.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

There you go.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Dead internet theory.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Along with this came a fear of home invasions. And at the same time, landlined phones were becoming central in the home, which was an again a new sort of thing. Being reachable, but not knowing who was on the other end was something that was like net new. While Janet's case is perhaps the most well known, it's also not the only case of a stalked, harassed, or murdered babysitter at this time. The urban legend centers on a teenage babysitter who is alone in a house at night after the children they're watching have gone to bed. While watching television, she begins receiving repeated phone calls from an unknown person instructing her to quote, check the children. As the calls persist, she becomes frightened and contacts the police. They tell her they will trace the next call. When the caller contacts her again, police trace it and immediately call her back, telling her to leave the house. After she exits, officers inform her that the calls were placed from inside the home where the intruder had already killed the children upstairs. So there are some alternative versions to this urban legend. In some variations, intended for younger audiences, the caller is revealed to be one of the children or an older sibling attempting to scare the babysitter, and they are reprimanded by the police. Other versions end with the babysitter being killed, while some depict her escaping with the children as police apprehend the intruder. In certain tellings, the attacker makes a final remark such as, see you soon, while being taken into custody. In other variations, the caller does not speak, instead, making noises such as laughter or heavy breathing. In these cases, after the operator traces the calls to the house, the line goes silent. And when the operator attempts to speak again, only the same noises are heard, implying the babysitter has already been killed. Yet another version places the children awake with the babysitter watching television when the calls begin. The caller tells them he will arrive in progressively shorter amounts of time. After they're informed the calls are coming from inside the house, they hear a door open upstairs, followed by footsteps approaching. This version appears in Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. Do you remember that book?

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Sure do. The best book.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Some later adaptations depict the babysitter as an adult with a family of her own. While out to dinner, she receives a phone call repeating the phrase, Did you check the children? In another variation, police later report that the intruder had been hiding under one of the children's beds with a weapon.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

What wouldn't you say? What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 23:24

So again, similar to an urban legend like the Black Eyed Children, as they're retold, people have told them in different ways, have changed them. And so these are it's so well known and documented that these are like the ten different major versions of the story that were often told around campfires. Gotcha, gotcha. As I said, in whispers on the bus.

SPEAKER_03 23:44

No, whispers at the bus.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Either way.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

The bus is not moving. You're standing next to it. But I can't help but notice that you were describing some scenes that were perfectly recreated in the movie.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Yes, and we will get there in due time.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

No, see, this this is my pain. I I think I know the perfect thing, and she's like, fuck off. Well, we're not talking about that right now.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

You'll know when it's time.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Here's what I was gonna throw in there. It but it's interesting, right? Because we think about how, you know, everything is a little bit like a version of telephone, right? And so we're all I think everyone's worried about, you know, is the internet distorting the truth? But so much of life is oral history kind of repeated, but little things change every time you do it.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

All of Greek mythology.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Exactly. Yeah. So who knows what the truth is?

The Clown Statue Nightmare Variant

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Exactly. You're right. It's a good like exercise in accepting that the world is, you know, nebulous.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

That eyewitness accounts are wildly unre uh unreliable. Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Have you ever listened to the serial podcast?

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Of course not. They've got a new one coming out.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

I know, it came out. It's out. I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Podcasts are trash. Who's listening to podcasts? I'm all about Substack articles.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

You can follow Dan on Substack. But there is one alternative worth harping on for a moment, and that is often referred to as the clown statue or the clown doll and the babysitter. In this version, a babysitter becomes uncomfortable with what appears to be a life-size clown figure positioned in a room.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Well, you first off, I got chills when you said the clown figure alternate version. It just made me feel creeped out. But if there's a full-sized clown statue in any place you're babysitting, just get out of there immediately. That's a good rule of thumb.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

No, that is a great opportunity to make sure that the loaded shotgun works.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

While checking in, a parent calls the house and the babysitter asks if she can cover the statue with a blanket. The parent responds that there's no clown statue in the home, revealing that the figure is actually a person dressed as a clown. Variations of this story include different details. In some, the children mention seeing a suspicious figure earlier in the night. In others, the intruder poses as a clown doll rather than a statue. But I mean, what's the difference, really, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:05

That's a tiny person if they're posing as a doll.

SPEAKER_03 26:08

Yeah. That's a great point.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

A life-size clown doll.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Of course. It's a kinky family.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Some versions describe the babysitter becoming increasingly uneasy before contacting the parents, while others have her attempt to avoid the figure by moving to another room or changing floors. In many tellings, she uses a blanket or a sheet to cover it up. Certain versions place the story in a specific location, including Newport Beach, California. The identity of the intruder also varies. It may be described as a violent individual, an unhoused person, or in some versions, a ghost associated with the home. A ghost pretending to be a clown.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

What's the resolution?

SPEAKER_00 26:48

It's an urban legend.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

I know, but like does she ever confront the thing? Or is it like is the is the climax is the end of the story when the she finds out that it's a person?

SPEAKER_01 26:58

When does it come out?

SPEAKER_03 27:00

2017? No.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Not that it. Oh.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

Uh 86, maybe?

SPEAKER_01 27:07

No. Later.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

86, exactly. Oh wow. Man, good job.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

It's crazy to me how for how long clowns have had a negative rap. Yeah.

Phone Terror Across Horror History

SPEAKER_03 27:17

For more info on that, check out our creepy clowns episode.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Oh, I don't know if it's a good recommendation. It's so old.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Yeah, but you at least talk about the history of clowns.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Yeah. I mean, it was it was fun. We went all the way back to court gestures. All right, so let's talk about the many horror films that were inspired by this urban legend.

SPEAKER_03 27:37

Speaking of which, did you know that the Latin word for clown is Bellatro?

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Oh, hey, Bellatro.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

For all of those out there addicted to Bellatro, like Alan, and it's ruining your relationships, call me and we can have a support group. I haven't played yet, and I don't do it. A little nervous. You just got married. It's not worth it.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

You just got married.

SPEAKER_03 27:59

So a a jester in a Roman court would be known as a Bellatro.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

By the early 1700s, this idea had already started to appear in film. And I guess, Alan, sort of to your point about the back rooms, which are starting to appear in films now, it's kind of similar to that, right? It's it was something contained, you know, a creepypasta that evolved online and now it's appearing in horror movies. It's kind of a similar modern day version.

SPEAKER_03 28:23

Is there a backrooms movie?

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Yeah, an A24 movie is coming out.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

Is it oh cool? What I I do fear that A24 is not what it used to be.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

And it's like Netflix now, where it's become so big that the quality is across the board.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Yeah, I agree. That's life.

SPEAKER_03 28:39

It's no hereditary.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

In 1971, a movie called Foster's Released came out. It was directed by David Edy. It's a lesser-known British thriller involving a babysitter terrorized by threatening phone calls. It's one of the earliest screen uses of this trope. So it's worth calling out for that reason. What year is this? 1971.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Well, I was gonna throw in there that one of the things that's interesting about this to me is that it reminds me all vaguely of a movie that I haven't seen since I was probably like 10 years old.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

All Dogs Go to Heaven.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

I probably haven't seen that in even longer. But there's a movie from 1948 called Sorry Wrong Number.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Tell us about it.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

So Sorry Wrong Number is a movie about a sort of bedridden woman. It's unclear exactly why she's bedridden, but I always re I always viewed it sort of she has like an agoraphobia.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

But because she's bedridden, she sort of has to live through her phone. Right? She's stuck inside. It's the 40s, people are out and about, she's gotta make but you know, she's gotta get by with social interactions over her phone. Uh, and while she's on the phone, the lines get crossed, and she overhears a murder plot. And she's trying to puzzle things together, and then it ends up uh she ends up being the murder victim. This whole sort of phone paranoia to me like feels like an older idea even than the initial example, but because it's sort of in the zeitgeist, yeah, feels like something that like would gain a lot of traction as like an urban myth.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Like dialem for murder, even right? Like there's a lot of horror that centers around phone technology before this. I think I totally think it's you're right, that all of that leads into this, and then it becomes this okay, there's teenagers being killed, there's you know, a lot of babysitters all of a sudden out there, and it's like a suburban feeling too, you know, it's a rural, suburban feeling of isolation and and like I don't know. I like I think it it just strikes me so profoundly as my experience growing up, like being afraid of being alone. And I think a lot of people in the suburbs felt like that for like there's something very eerie about it sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 30:51

Wasn't there also a movie called Phone Booth? Probably with with like Ben Affleck or something. Yeah, that's a little different. He's like stuck in a phone booth and like because of a sniper.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah, there's a snipe, there's a sniper rifle trained on him, and from the phone booth he has to make it like it like the movies shot in. I don't I don't even know if I've seen it. I've just heard about it. It's shot in like real time, so it's like 87 minutes long. It's the 87 minutes where he's stuck on the phone.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

Yeah, it's kind of this is pretty good. There's another movie called Cellular, but I don't remember what I don't remember that one.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Similar, but with a cell phone. Yeah. I'll throw out there. I think both of those movies were on How Did This Get Made, which is about bad movies. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Alan's specialty. Also from 1971 was a movie called Fright, which was directed by Peter Collinson and starring Susan George. It follows a babysitter who is stalked by an escape mental patient. Frequently, it's cited as a direct proto version of the urban legend on film. From 1973, a film called The Severed Arm was released. It was directed by Tom Alderman, and it's a revenge horror film, not strictly about babysitting, but it includes threatening phone calls as one of the key elements of the movie. And it shows how the like anonymous caller is used as a terror device. Um, and how that was like spreading quite often in the early 70s, right? Like just as kind of like what you're talking about, even even before that.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

I'm sure there's a lot of new versions of like I'm sure there have been movies, and I probably haven't watched them, of somebody comments on your YouTube page and like it's an anonymous post, but it's creepy and it's you know, like Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

I also just think I think yes, but I also think to me, I don't know. I don't I'm ready to debate, you know, I could be wrong here, but for me, it feels like it doesn't quite translate in the same way. Like to me, the fear of being a babysitter alone in a house, someone calling you feels different than like the online comment. And I think the reason why it feels different to me is that the comment stuff is so everywhere. Like I post any video and I could get 30 horrible comments on it. And I almost feel like as a society, we're like like desensitized to it a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Well, it's like you're what you were saying about newspapers versus the news media. You're seeing something, you're feeling something. Somebody's voice entering your domicile, right? Suddenly you're it they're in the room with you uh vocally, right? And it feels like they could be in your and to like the the urban myths, you know, part of the story. You know, it they could be in the house with you. It's like they're in the house with you because they're you can hear them breathing, you can hear their voice. There's an intimacy that you don't have uh when somebody just leaves you a creepy comment.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Well, it's also a two-way conversation, like you can talk to them back. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

It's like Linux Mutual.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

It is like Linux Mutual.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

It's a it's an extra layer of vulnerability where you know eve I was trying to think of like what would be the more even more modern equivalent, like what would like a creepy zoom call, you know? Uh but like no, that nothing's scary about a zoom call because like you can see their face. So like it it kind of I feel like it kind of peaked on the creepy phone call.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

There has been like Zoom horror and like cam girl horror. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:04

It's been okay, but what I'm saying is like a stranger contacting you.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

I guess I don't know, like a FaceTime would be kind of weird.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Yeah, like I think there's a way to do it, but I think it's a different thing.

SPEAKER_03 34:16

Like if a masked man calls you over FaceTime, that'd be weird.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Yeah, especially if you can see in the FaceTime that they're like outside your house. Yeah. You know, it like peaks a different sense, though.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

Write these down. This is gold.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Yeah, that is actually pretty good. The idea that somebody FaceTimes you and they're outside your house, that would creep me out.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Yeah. Famously, Black Christmas in 1974, directed by Bob Clark and starring Olivia Hussey. Sority sisters receive obscene, escalating phone calls from a killer inside the house. This was a major milestone for the trope. It firmly established the calls coming from inside the house concept in horror cinema. I really hate those scenes in this movie. In Black Christmas. I know that it is one of the most beloved, like sort of earliest slasher films, and I acknowledge it for that. But it there's something really, really upsetting to me about the way that it's depicted, even more so than like One of Stranger Calls isn't great. Like those scenes are also upsetting, but Black Christmas is like really bad.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

Do you get scared by Black Christmas?

SPEAKER_00 35:20

I I don't think I I'm not like scared by it, but I am very unsettled by those phone calls.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Black Christmas sucks. I found it cringy as a movie. It's a bad movie. I I I have a friend who recommended it as like a good early slasher. Uh, and I tried to watch it. No, it wasn't you guys. Um I tried to watch it like a few Halloween ago, and I was like, It's a Christmas movie. Uh sort of just it just cr it felt cringy in a way and not well shot.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

It's just a bad movie. I'm sorry. Better movies have been made. That's true. Ice Age, great movie. Ice Age is wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Black Christmas began as a screenplay by Canadian writer Ray Moore, originally titled Stop Me. The story, of course, draws in part from the babysitter and the man upstairs legend, but it was also inspired by a series of real murders that took place during the holiday season in Montreal's Westmount area. One of those cases from 1943 involved a 14-year-old who killed several members of his family. Producers Harvey Sherman and Richard Shouten later had Timothy Bond revise the script, shifting the setting to a university. Director Bob Clark also made changes, including rewriting dialogue and adding moments of humor, such as the characterization of Barb and Mrs. Mack, the latter was inspired by his aunt. Clark aimed to portray young people more realistically than was typical in American films at the time, emphasizing that college students were perceptive and not exaggerated stereotypes often shown on screen. Black Christmas was first released in Canada by ambassador film distributors, debuting in the Toronto and Hamilton area on October 11, 1974. It expanded in other cities, including Vancouver, Calgary, and others, in November, followed by a Montreal release in late December. The film reached the U.S. in May of 1975 through Warner Bros., where it was initially marked under the title Silent Night, Evil Night, as distributors were concerned the original title might be misinterpreted by audiences as a black exploitation film. The film earned$143,000 from nine Toronto theaters in its first two weeks and brought in approximately$1.3 million during its Canadian theatrical run. It later reached a total of about$2 million in Canada, making it one of the highest-grossing Canadian films at the time.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Also in 1974, a Brazilian thriller called O Anyo de Note.

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Your Portuguese is incredible.

The Short Film That Became 1979

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Directed by Walter Hugo Quarry. This film told the story of a babysitter who was threatened by calls during a night alone. And I like talking about this one because it shows that the legend became international, right? It wasn't just in the US or in small like this one made it all the way to Brazil.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

Well, yeah, I mean they got phones there.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

I know, but I'm just saying, you know, it was a global sensation.

SPEAKER_03 38:07

We could call there now.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

All right. So three years later, let's talk business. 1977. A film was released, a short film called The Sitter. It was directed by Fred Walton. So this is a short film that was a bit of a proof of concept for when a stranger calls. It's essentially the most direct adaptation of the Urban Legend before it became a feature film. It was released in theaters as a short shown ahead of Looking for Mr. Goodbar. After seeing it, executive producers Sorry, Looking for Mr.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

Goodbar?

SPEAKER_00 38:37

That was the feature it showed before.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

The candy? Mr. Goodbar.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

It's a film called Looking for Mr. Goodbar, 1977.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

Maybe it was like Charlie in the Chocolate Factory, where the movie was to be a commercial for Mr. Goodbar.

SPEAKER_03 38:51

Yeah, what I'm really curious about looking for Mr. Goodbar.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Well, I was just gonna say, I think It's an American crime drama. I'm gonna write down a prediction for where Abby's going because I I think I've got a good idea of this proof of concept short film. I'm thinking that the first 25 minutes of this film are pretty much directly that proof of concept, and that's why the other two-thirds of the movie feel so different.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Yeah. I mean it's it's not it. It's not like they put the short and built off of it, but yes, I think the proof of concept was, you know, the first part of that movie.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

That's interesting because the remake is just that part of the movie.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

So they could have just, you know, gone with that and and stretched it out for an unbearably long amount of time the way the 19 or the 2006 version did.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Yeah. So after seeing it, the executive producers Barry Crost and Douglas Chappan purchased the rights and had Walton, the director, and Feke, the writer, develop it into a full-length film. So two years later, in 1979, when a Stranger Calls was released. Again, it was directed by Fred Walton starring Carol Kane. It expands The Sitter into a full film, and its opening sequence is a near-perfect retelling of the legend. This is a definitive version that cemented the trope in pop culture forever. Principal photography began on October 9th, 1978, and continued for roughly 27 and a half days in LA, particularly in Brentwood. The filming in November, so the next month, including locations in downtown LA during a series of skid row stabbing murders, with some scenes shot at sites where victims had been discovered, including the steps of the Los Angeles Public Library. So a bit of a dark, dark lore about the set. The bar scene featuring Duncan and Tracy was filmed at Torchies on West Fifth Street.

SPEAKER_03 40:37

Not to be confused with Torchie's Tacos, which is in Austin.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

The film was released by Columbia Theatrically in the United States on September 28th, 1979. To me, the perfect release date for a horror movie. A little bit before October, you know? A few days before October. Give us the month of October to watch it. Okay, sure.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

I can get I can get behind that. The only thing that I would feel bad is is if it wasn't very popular. It lost its theatrical release before the 31st. That would feel like a real downer. That would be, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

I like when horror movies come out in early November because then that just keeps spooky season going.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Alright, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

But isn't that award season?

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

Who cares about award season?

SPEAKER_01 41:18

Well then they're competing with all the award bait. Sure. As and hopefully they win. Well, well now I mean sinners and I know what a year for a year for the Oscars.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

Frankenstein.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Frankenstein.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

The film was re-released across more screens in 1980. The American Classification and Rating Administration originally approved the film for a PG rating. What? Several years before PG 13 was a naked man. I know.

SPEAKER_03 41:46

There was a she was covered in blood.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Following a review by the chairman, the board reconvened to reconsider the decision. The chairman maintained that the film's treatment of the subject matter was too intense for all general audience of children, and a subsequent vote led to the film receiving an R rating instead.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Wow, that's uh quite the exponential increase.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

No, because PG 13 didn't exist yet. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:12

So yeah, it's just the next tier on the ladder. It's either kids can see it or actually that's fine. Either kids can see it or kids cannot.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Yeah. It's like drinking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:20

Either, yeah. You're in or you're out. It's rated beer 13.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

The film earned about$483,000 in pre-release engagements and expanded to almost 500 theaters, grossing$2.6 million in its first four days. It reached number one at the box office by its third week and ultimately grossed approximately 20 million in its initial North American run.

SPEAKER_03 42:44

Great run.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

With an additional$1.26 million in a 1980 re-release. Produced on a$1.5 million budget, it was considered a financial success, with some contemporary reports placing the total gross near$25 million. Famously, Roger Ebert called the movie sleazy.

SPEAKER_03 43:00

Sleazy? Why sleazy? Dirty, dirty cop. Yeah, he is a dirty cop.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Though it had a more favorable review from the New York Times, where the reviewer called it energetic. Author Travis Holt had talked about the importance of the telephone in the film's portrayal of horror. Quote, the phone is presented as a means of safety and comfort in the in the beginning of the film. It's a savior rather than a burden, end quote. But once the phone calls start, he describes the phone as, quote, with the constant central framing of the telephone and its intrusion into the tranquility of the house, the phone has become Jill's nemesis. Jill remains trapped in a situation where she can do nothing but pray that the perpetrator stops calling. The device that usually holds so much promise for positive communication has become virtually her worst nightmare. Because you remember at the beginning, she's calling her friend, right? There's like some positive energy around the phone.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

What was the name of her husband at the end?'Cause she's on the phone, she's trying to get Bobby's attention. If you remember, she's like, Nancy, let Bobby know I'm waiting for his phone call. Oh yeah. No one trying to remember if she ended up with him. Let's see. I don't think so. I think his name was Sean. I have the benefit of having seen that one part or twice. Side note, if for those of you guys who watched, me and Alan particularly enjoyed the fact that her husband at the end looks exactly like Artie Ziff from Ah The Simpsons. That's right. I hope that's fun for you.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

His name is Steven.

unknown 44:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Well, Sean was close.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Yeah, but it's not Bobby.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

No. So I guess she gets over Bobby.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

I hope so. Maybe she's still in love with him.

SPEAKER_03 44:38

Maybe Bobby was the killer.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

No, that was Duncan. Oh, his name's Kurt. Kurt Duncan.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

That's where my that's my level of memory.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

In 1993, when A Stranger Calls Back is released. It was again directed by Fred Walton. It's a sequel that updates the premise with new variations, which I don't want to totally spoil because we haven't seen it yet, but it includes some like visual representations. And it shows how the original legend evolved into new forms of home invasion horror. 2006 is a big year. There was a remake of Black Christmas, which was directed by Glenn Morgan. And the same year, there was also a remake of When a Stranger Calls, which, one, made me actually scream out loud in the theater when I saw it. I have a visceral memory of that happening. And two, it inspired one of my first home horror movies. Shout out to my friend Jess. We made a movie called When a Strange Her Calls.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Oh, yeah. Can we see it?

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Um, no.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

Roll that clip.

Crafting Tension And Sound Design

SPEAKER_00 45:34

The movie was directed by Simon West and stars Camilla Bell. It's a full feature built almost entirely around the babysitting alone scenario. So just those first 25 minutes of the original. So it's Dan and I were talking about this as we were watching the movie because the remake just takes that first again, the short, right? The sitter, and then the first 25 minutes of the original when a stranger calls and turns it into a feature film.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

We're gonna talk more about the movie, I think, but but the movie does a great job in that first 25 minutes of making you like feel the tension of a girl in a in a house that's unfamiliar to her, and like they uh they convey this very uh well of like shot of a corner, shot of like a hallway, shot of a shadow, like like small sections of the house where this person could be hiding.

SPEAKER_03 46:25

A masterclass in cinematography.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Oh, I am obsessed with the cinematography of this movie.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

The the the remake takes those single frame shots and replaces it with about 10 or 15 minutes of the girl running through the house having to look at every single inch of it to try and find this man who's calling her from inside the house.

SPEAKER_04 46:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

And that's how they get 86 minutes out of a 22-minute short story.

SPEAKER_03 46:52

The first part of um the original has great pacing. It feels not rushed, but very intense. Uh, and it does not overstay its welcome.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Which it does so I can only imagine. It does it so well with the THX sound.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Oh that's the one of the trippiest parts of watching this movie.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

So uh Dan, you clocked it immediately. It's like, wait, is that the THX sound? So we Googled. It's like, you know, everyone knows sorry, everyone who grew up in the 90s knows the THX sound. But in this very iconic sound is used again and again throughout When a Stranger Calls.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

As part of the score.

SPEAKER_03 47:29

As part of the the score, the sound design. But no, this was not has no affiliation with the actual THX sound. It's actually just kind of like a a sound parlor trick that I guess has been done for a very long time that was really crafted and dialed up to 11 for the THX sound, but it's been used in a bunch of other stuff according to the Reddit thread that we looked up.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Fascinating.

The Strange Middle Act Explained

SPEAKER_03 47:50

The only thing that I was kind of hoping for was like when she gets the call originally, like instead of being like a creepy killer, it was like another victim that's like, Help, I'm in the middle of a situation. Like, I can't get a uh a You mean at the beginning or the Yeah, I I in the beginning, like I can't get through to anyone. You're the first person I got through. Like, you have to help me get out of this situation. Like the whole movie is then about like her helping this like rando survive this thing. I think that's a really cool idea, which is why they made it into the 2004 thriller cellular. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

You lost me for a minute, and then okay. I was waiting for the cellular callback. I thought I really enjoyed this movie. I was really excited when Alan uh said that that we were gonna watch it.

SPEAKER_03 48:33

This was a this an episode was entirely my idea.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

LOL. So I was excited to watch it. I l loved lots of it. I the middle chunk of this movie is sort of about a detective trying to find the serial killer, Kurt Duncan, who, you know, escapes a mental institution. Which is a real departure from some of like the rest of what we've been talking about on the episode. But it does sort of it what it like what I felt like it was trying to wrestle with is this sort of 70s paranoia. We have, like you said, with the phone and and sort of different technology, these more intimate moments of seeing the world clearly, with all its, you know, ugliness and all the terrible things that happen, and trying to r rationalize that in you know, and one of the weird things about this movie is it spends a lot of time with the serial killer. You spend a lot of time seeing the world through his eyes, and he's clearly got a lot going on, and at certain points I was like, not sure if you should if you know they go kind of out of their way to almost make him a little sympathetic.

SPEAKER_03 49:48

Definitely, definitely. Uh, I'm trying to think of like an earlier example of being very sympathetic to the killer.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Well, it feels to me like a lot of this movie felt similar to a Brian De Palma movie. And I think one of the big reasons is that we're with the killer a lot. And it's not this whole thing of like, okay, like the beginning is this this whole, you know, song and dance of, oh, we don't know anything about the killer, we just know his voice and he's gonna pop out. But then it's like they pop the balloon of that and you're just with him, you're overexposed to him, so much so that at the end you know like exactly how it's gonna play out. It totally tone shifts to be with the killer, I think, from like a very classic horror movie to like a thriller, because you don't have that fear of him coming out. Like there's a there's a shot where the detective is coming down this long hallway looking for him, and we're with the killer. Like we see him hiding. It's the opposite of how you'd shoot a horror sequence. And so, yeah, it's it's kind of also this tone shift of uh like living in fear of when the the killer's gonna jump out in the remake in the first 25 minutes to a a character piece on mental health or something, you know? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 51:00

Also, all of act two, our killer is pining after this woman.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:04

And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, a newspaper, never mind. And then go and then we're back, and then we're in act three, and he's back chasing the woman that put him in jail in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

Why? That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

Yeah, these three short stories, yep, and the middle chunk doesn't have anything to do with the other two.

SPEAKER_03 51:21

No, it's great, it just doesn't fit.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:23

We're missing the glow.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

He had to do something while he was waiting for Jill Johnson to have two children so that he could recreate the first exactly. He was in jail. Jill Johnson hasn't gone out for dinner her entire marriage because she's been so worried. She finally gets the courage when her husband And hires a baby and hires a baby. Sharon. Sharon. You have a great memory.

SPEAKER_03 51:46

Great work.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

I also just want to call out, and I hate to, I feel like I do this all the time. This movie has so many, and it came out a year later. Over like so much overlapping themology with Halloween.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Almost the exact same. I mean, I think Halloween's better.

SPEAKER_00 52:02

Oh, yeah, but overwhelmingly, like the babysitters and the phone calls, an escaped mental patient going to hold that whole thing. This one person who is, you know, helping the the protagonist. In this case, it's a detective, and you know, Halloween, it's a doctor. Like the one person that knows how bad this guy is, you know.

SPEAKER_03 52:21

Right. A man who is part of the system who's not afraid to use violence, who's not afraid to break the law to take matters into his own hands.

SPEAKER_01 52:30

It actually makes this movie to me, like cop who becomes a private detective who's pretty salty, actually to me makes more sense than the Dr. Loomis character. The Dr. Loomis character is, I think, particularly, I mean, if Mike Myers is pure evil. Sure. You know, I get it. He's not that bad. As a mental health professional, yeah, the love guru is not great, but right.

SPEAKER_03 52:54

Oh, you mean Michael Myers?

SPEAKER_01 52:56

Michael Myers. I'm sorry. In my head, they're the same. Same. I assume right after making Halloween, he made he got onto SNL.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

What were you gonna say, Dan, as a mental health professional?

SPEAKER_01 53:07

I just Dr. Luba strikes me as a pretty unsympathetic person. You know, I think he really he hates, you know.

SPEAKER_03 53:15

Well, how long was Michael locked up for the first time?

SPEAKER_00 53:18

Like 20 years. Like 20 years.

SPEAKER_03 53:21

He spent, you know, every day, every other day, whatever, with this doctor. Yeah. Like he got a pretty good feel for how awful this kid was.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Well, the other stark similarity, I think, is the opening sequences, right? Like in Halloween, you have this again, perfect opening like Shah that tracks this like early violence, but it's the same kind of idea. It's like this isolated horror introduction to the bad guy before he goes away. And it's the same thing in a stranger calls, it's just longer. Also, Scream, right? Like the whole opening, and I know we talked about Scream is meant to be meta, of exactly like films like this, but the whole opening sequence of Scream with her on the phone, which is totally disconnected to the rest of the movie, it just reminds me of this too. All right. Well, there's a few other films to talk about.

SPEAKER_03 54:11

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

In 2006, there was also a film called When a Killer Calls, which was directed by Peter Mervis. It's a low-budget reworking of the same concept. In 2008, there was a film called Amusement, directed by John Simpson. This is an anthology-style horror film with a segment involving a babysitter and a clown figure. So this is on my list.

SPEAKER_03 54:33

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

And in 2019, Black Christmas was remade yet again. Hooray! This time directed by Sophia Tacall. It's a modern reinterpretation with a different thematic focus. Have we seen it? No. By the late 1970s, the babysitter urban legend had fully crossed into film. And from that point on, it became one of the most foundational blueprints for home invasion horror. Which I like hate, but here we are. Especially the idea that the threat isn't outside trying to get in, but it's already inside the house.

SPEAKER_03 55:05

Just like the state of our nation.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 55:08

Do people have babysitters anymore? I mean, no, that's too unsafe. They still do. Of course. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

Of course. What do you mean? Of course they do.

SPEAKER_03 55:15

It's too unsafe.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

Who do they trust with the children?

SPEAKER_03 55:17

No one.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

Like like I nanny's for my cousin. You know, I think it's No 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_03 55:22

That's what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

No, I'm saying like if if we had a kid, I'd have my cousin nanny for us, you know? Okay. It's like family.

SPEAKER_03 55:29

I would just put him in the care of uh the fuck is the kid? The Grok.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

Grok, yeah. Grok would make a good babysitter.

SPEAKER_00 55:38

Like if we had a kid, we'd have our friend Jess's kid babysit our kid, you know, because there's an age difference. What? You have like people you know.

SPEAKER_03 55:45

We don't have a kid.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

I'm saying hypothetically.

SPEAKER_03 55:48

You have a James. Our kid is 14 almost. He's not 14. He's 13.

SPEAKER_00 55:53

The babysitter and the man upstairs isn't one story, it's a pattern. From a real crime to an urban legend and decades of horror films that all center around the same very specific idea. I think a lot of women, especially young women, connect to this trope. It calls upon the vulnerability that young women often feel, the coming of age responsibility of being in charge of the lives of kids in someone else's house, alone at night. Over time, the details have changed, but the structure hasn't, because the fear behind it is simple and it hasn't gone away. What makes this story so effective is how simple it is. There is no or little chase, no escape, just this deep sinking realization that something is already wrong. The idea that you can be alone in a place that feels safe and not actually be alone at all.

SPEAKER_03 56:41

Uh-oh. I I really enjoyed this movie. It's a this a cool topic. Um, I any I mean, this is the whole thing, right? It's the history of horror. So it started with an Urban Legends, uh became a movie that became a staple in horror tropes for years to come. Uh it's it was it was cool. And who would have thought that all had to do with the creepy clowns?

SPEAKER_00 57:08

Well, yeah. Well, we have to watch Amusement and come back and talk about that because I'm really interested in the clown part of this uh urban legend.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

Indeed. The clown part is the one that is like a bridge too far. That's where like this this urban myth, I'm like, uh, you had me with the the phone call. I could believe that, but you know.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

Listeners out there who are horror writers, if anyone wants to write versions of this Urban Legend or the Clown variant or another variant and send them to us, we will do an episode and read them on the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 57:38

Can we just reflect on the fact that dur when this was made, in order to call someone from inside the house, you had to have two lines. You need to, yeah, you have to have a completely separate phone line.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

Well, the movie went out of its way to say that there was a a a line they thought was disconnected upstairs.

SPEAKER_03 57:56

Yeah, they forgot about it.

SPEAKER_01 57:57

That they forgot about, which means they've been paying for two phone lines.

SPEAKER_03 58:01

I mean, no one in their right mind would ever have a subscription that they forget about and just pay month to month, and they never realize.

SPEAKER_01 58:09

Never would happen.

SPEAKER_03 58:10

Never.

SPEAKER_01 58:11

Not in the 1970s.

SPEAKER_03 58:12

Nowadays No, now when you have to write a check for it.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

Nowadays, I've got like a million subscriptions paying for a Neo Pets account.

SPEAKER_03 58:20

Yeah, I mean, I'd get it if they had a fax machine, because you need a separate line for that, but that you're what, like a uh six years too early?

SPEAKER_01 58:30

Too yeah, it's way too early for an at-home fax.

SPEAKER_03 58:33

When do people have at-home fac I I picture eighties, but maybe it was nineties.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

Well, they existed in the 70s, because if you watch the movie Almost Famous, which is not about horror, but it's a great movie. It's a great movie. Uh they are there's a whole thing at the end where they have to fax. They're like with it's a it's something called a fax, but that's the 70s. All right, so it made but commercially available eighties. 80s, okay. Probably more nineties.

SPEAKER_03 58:57

I mean, I I it was a nice house. It would stand to reason that you'd have two phone lines just so his and her could each be on the call. It's crazy, but it's possible.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

Yeah, I think it happened, but it was certainly would have been a rarity. But definitely, like, if you had two phone lines, you would know. We I feel like you wouldn't be paying the phone company double and not know it.

SPEAKER_04 59:21

Because we had Kurt Duncan was paying for this moment.

SPEAKER_01 59:24

Actually, that was something I thought about. Like, what is Kurt Duncan's story up until this movie taking place? Right. He's from England, he arrives in the city as a merchant marine or something like that. What? He has like mer they say like his identification page papers or his merchant marine papers.

SPEAKER_03 59:42

So he was a a a combat salesman?

SPEAKER_01 59:45

I think he was like on a ship, you know, and then he he you know gets loose at port. Uh-huh. But like, how did he get that job in the first place? There's a whole story about his mental health journey that was very uh important to act two that I don't know that we got. Yeah, I think it's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Maybe it's revealed in when a stranger calls back.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

Maybe. That'd be I is he in it?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:09

I don't know. We'll have to see.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:10

No, he's dead.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:11

No, he's not dead.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:12

Oh, yeah, they shot him.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:13

He shot him.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

But so they shot Michael Myers how many times? I don't think he didn't shoot him in the head. He went to shoot him in the head and he didn't. So do we really know he's dead?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:21

True, true. I th I yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

I mean, this is a horror movie. They always come back. I don't think Kurt Duncan's pure evil. I thought that was love. You're a Kurt Duncan apologist.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:31

I thought that was a really good moment, though, when the the when the the the private detective had a the gun to the killer's head uh and chose not to fire. Yeah. Uh he was already dead, and I think that was like you just saw he wanted to do it so bad, but there was like that brief moan of like, oh fuck, I'm a I I I'm supposed to be the good guy.

Listener Prompt And Final Plugs

SPEAKER_01 1:00:49

I I liked him. It it worked on me for like this like level of I've been trying to be more open to the idea of like you can dislike people, but doesn't mean that everything they do is bad.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:00

You know, there's plenty so many people, the world's full of people you don't like. Yeah. Right. But sometimes they also do the right thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:06

Right. We would not know about um uh surviving hypothermia without the Nazis.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

All right. On that note. I'm sure someone else would have figured it out. Dan, tell us where people can subscribe to your Substack.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:22

Sure. I have a Substack. Uh I think it's Daniel.robert91. We'll link it. We'll link it in the comments. I talk about politics on there. If you're interested in politics, you can follow it or just follow it for fun. Uh, and I'm starting a podcast about uh existential and spiritual topics. Um that what's the name of it? It's gonna be called Existential in Westchester. Nice. It does not exist yet, uh, but it will.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:51

And when it does, we will let you know for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:52

Within the next month and a half, we guys can come back.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:55

Wanting to say coming soon because who knows when this will come out. It's true. Coming soon.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

All right. Thank you guys so much for listening. Dan, thank you so much for coming back. Thank you for having me. More from Dan in 2026 on Lunatics Radio Hour. Stay spooky, stay safe, and we'll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye. Bye.