Episode 195 - The History of Medieval UFO Sightings

Modern UFO reports are often associated with the 20th century, but strange objects in the sky have been recorded for hundreds of years. Medieval chronicles describe unusual celestial events, mysterious lights, and unexplained phenomena that left witnesses searching for answers. Centuries later, some researchers and UFO enthusiasts have pointed to curious details in medieval and Renaissance artwork, arguing that certain paintings appear to depict objects that resemble modern ideas of UFOs.

In this episode, we explore reports of strange sightings from the Middle Ages and examine some of the most famous examples of alleged UFOs in historical art. We'll look at the historical context behind these accounts, the explanations offered by historians and art experts, and why these images continue to fuel debate today.

Are these records evidence of something extraordinary, misunderstood natural phenomena, religious symbolism, or examples of modern interpretations being applied to ancient works? Join us as we investigate the fascinating intersection of history, art, folklore, and the enduring mystery of unidentified objects in the sky.

Sources

• Artnet article: Is There a UFO in That Renaissance Painting? 
• A burials and beyond article: Aliens Over Nuremberg 
• Wikipedia and Public Domain review 

Get Lunatics Merch here. Join the discussion on Discord. Check out Abby's book Horror Stories. Available in eBook and paperback. Music by Michaela Papa, Alan Kudan & Jordan Moser. Poster Art by Pilar Keprta @pilar.kep.

Transcript

A 1561 Sky Battle Account

SPEAKER_03 0:18

Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Lunatics Radio Hour Podcast. I'm Abby Brinker, sitting here with Alan Cadan. Hello. Today we are going to start with a lengthy quote from a news article printed in 1561 and translated by Eyle von Jacobi.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

In the morning of April 14th, 1561, at daybreak, between four and five on the small clock, a dreadful apparition occurred on the sun. And when this was seen in Nuremberg I can't do this forever.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

And then this was seen in Nuremberg, in the city, before the gates and in the country, by many men and women. At first there appeared in the middle of the sun two blood red semicircular arcs, just like the moon in its last quarter. And in the sun, above and below, and on both sides, the color was blood. There stood a round ball of partly dull, partly black, ferrous color. Likewise there stood on both sides, and as a torus about the sun, such blood red ones and other balls in large number, about three in a line and four in a square, also some alone. In between these globes there were visible a few blood red crosses, between which there were blood red strips, becoming thicker to the rear and in the front malleable, like the rods of a reed grass, which intermingled among them two big rods, one on the right and the other on the left, and within the small and big rods there were three, also four and more globes. These all started to fight among themselves, so that the globes, which were first in the sun, flew out to the ones standing on both sides. Thereafter, the globes standing outside the sun, and the small and large rods flew into the sun.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Besides the globes, got globes going this way, globes going that way, you're really losing me here.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

Besides the globes, flew back and forth among themselves and fought vehemently with each other for over an hour. And when the conflict in and again out of the sun was most intense, they became fatigued to such an extent that they all, as said above, fell from the sun down upon the earth, as if they all burned, and then they wasted away on the earth with immense smoke. After all this, there was something like a black spear, very long and thick, sighted, the shaft pointed to the east, the point pointed west. Whatever such signs mean, God alone knows, although we have seen, shortly, one after another, many kinds of signs on the heaven, which are sent to us by the Almighty God, to bring us repentance. We still are, unfortunately, so ungrateful that we despise such high signs and miracles of God, or we speak them with ridicule and discard them to the wind, in order that God may send us a frightening punishment on account of our ungratefulness. After all, the God fearing will by no means discard these signs, but will take it to heart as a warning of their merciful Father in heaven, will mend their lives and faithfully beg God, that he may avert his wrath, including the well-deserved punishment, on us, so that we may temporarily here and permanently there live as his children. For it, may God grant us his help. Amen. By Hans Glasser, letter painter of Nuremberg. End quote. Today's sources are an ArtNet article, Is There a UFO in that Renaissance painting, a Burials and Beyond article, Aliens Over Nuremberg, Wikipedia and Public Domain Review. One of my favorite conspiracy theories has long been that there are claims of unexpected sightings and incidents dating back to medieval times that from a modern perspective we would qualify as UFO sightings. These incidents are often represented in artwork as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Abby. I'm not gonna qualify any sighting that stems from people staring into the sun for too long.

SPEAKER_03 4:15

Alright, let me

Do UFO Videos Prove Anything

SPEAKER_03 4:16

pause here. Do you, yes or no, believe in UFOs? Believe in aliens.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Aliens, yes.

SPEAKER_03 4:21

You don't believe in UFOs?

SPEAKER_01 4:22

I don't think we've been visited by extraterrestrials.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Even though the government is releasing footage, you still don't believe it.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

What footage are they releasing that's reliable?

SPEAKER_03 4:32

I mean, good point about the reliability of our government, but there the Air Force is putting out, you know, documented UFO sightings that started in the last few months.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Let me see.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

Please hold.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Okay, so I just watched um Abby's proof.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

I'm not saying it's proof, I'm saying that's what the government has released.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

But this it's just like photos of Bigfoot. Why is everything super duper duper grainy?

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Impossible to Because it's zoomed in to show us.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Sure, but I don't know. We've we have telescopes that can see crystal clear photos of other nebulas.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Why on earth are we still using super grainy cameras uh here on Earth then?

SPEAKER_03 5:17

Because we're not strapping all of our fighter jets with the Hubble telescope.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

But don't you think it would be in the military's best interest to have a crystal clear image uh of an enemy aircraft? Like, oh just put an iPhone up there. It's gonna look great.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Okay, come with me on this journey, this mental journey for one second. What if the government does have crystal clear footage of aliens or photos of aliens or UFOs? They do. However, they think if humans see them, that we'll lose our F and minds. Because that's a big theory, right? In all this is that suddenly if a UFO touched down in Times Square, people's understanding, and we if we go back and listen to our episodes with Andy to go back to this theory, but people's understanding of like space and time and the world, the universe, would dramatically shift so much so quickly that people would have panic attacks and breakdowns, and like, you know, our our understanding of the fabric of the universe just like immediately like goes out the window that it's like a devastating thing. So the government, some theorists say, is going to slowly start releasing better and better footage over time so that people can acclimate to something because they believe that there will be an event like that. That some point they know much more about what we know, right? That about UFOs, and that at some point there will be some sort of event coming up, and so they've got to start acclimating the public so that there's not like mass panic. That's one theory.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

I think that requires way too much competence uh of people in charge.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Yeah, fair. Just just putting it out there.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

While I do think it is statistically impossible for aliens to not exist, I also think that the universe is just so frickin' big that the odds of them being here are infinitesimally small.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

It's the marble in the warehouse, right? That marble in the warehouse theory.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Marble in the warehouse.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

It's like, or like an airplane hangar, it's like if the universe is an airplane hangar and aliens or we're we're we're Earth and aliens are marble, and you like roll the marble around, like the likelihood of it intersecting with you is so small.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Uh sure, yeah. Yes, similar idea.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Not very well said, but you get the idea. So while modern audiences may interpret these stories through the lens of extraterrestrials and unidentified flying objects, medieval people viewed them very differently. So today we are going to talk about both some situations where there was firsthand accounts of people witnessing something strange in the sky during medieval times, and we are going to talk about artwork that represents or depicts things that could be interpreted as UFOs through our modern eyes. Now, I acknowledge that that second part requires some visuals. We're going to do our best to describe them, and of course, we are going to post them on our website, which is lunaticsproject.com, but also all over our social channels. So hopefully that'll be easy for you to find those while you're listening to this.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Do you still have to type in WWW?

SPEAKER_03 8:16

Sometimes, yeah. But let's let's try. No, lunaticsproject.com brings you right there.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 8:21

No www needed.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Does it still add the HTTP?

SPEAKER_03 8:26

No.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

It's not even there.

SPEAKER_03 8:28

It's not even there. Maybe that's because our site's not secure. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Just make sure to ask your parents before you go online.

SPEAKER_03 8:34

That's a good point. If you're under if you're under 18, or I guess 13. Or I guess 16.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

I think it's 16.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

16, yeah. So

Nuremberg 1561 And The Woodcut

SPEAKER_03 8:42

again, to medieval people, strange phenomena in the sky were usually interpreted as signs from God, which we heard in the opening quote, omens of disaster, warnings of war, or evidence of supernatural forces at work in the heavens. One of the most famous examples of a possible pre-modern UFO sighting occurred over the German city of Nuremberg in 1561. And this is that quote that we read was actually from like a broadsheet, like a news article essentially, that came out at the time. The event is now often referred to as the celestial phenomenon over Nuremberg. According to the broadsheet that we read earlier, which again was printed by Hans Glaser shortly after the event, citizens of Nuremberg awoke at dawn on April 14th, 1561, to witness a terrifying display in the sky. The account describes numerous objects appearing overhead, including bricks and cabbages. Cylinders, crosses, spheres, and long tube-like forms. Witnesses claimed that the objects moved erratically through the air and appeared to engage in what looked like aerial battle with each other. Red, black, blue, and white objects reportedly darted across the sky before many seemed to crash or fall towards the earth in fire and smoke.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

What on earth does a medieval peasant have any have any knowledge of an what an aerial battle would look like? Between cylinders, no less.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

How? They're cylinders and guns. The guns don't exist.

SPEAKER_03 10:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

And they're like, ah, look, they're using technology that doesn't exist yet, but I'm identifying it.

SPEAKER_03 10:26

They they have okay, so the there's actually no um the the guns thing I just added, but let's say they knew how to fight with swords, they knew how to fight physically, they knew what fighting was. They do oh absolutely so whatever the shape is, if it's fighting physically with another shape, you think you think the cylinders are jousting? I also think you can look at something, yeah, it could be. Look at something and understand the intention of that thing, even if it's new to you. Right? You could watch a movie in a different language and you could understand somebody's mood if it's happy or sad or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

I I think that you could probably tell. When the aliens come to Times Square, you're gonna freak out, and I'm not.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

You're gonna freak out so much more than I am.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

No, I'm not.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

You're gonna lose your sh you're gonna be down there with your phone trying to go on TikTok live, but all the servers are gonna be down.

SPEAKER_03 11:20

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Because everyone's gonna be trying to go in on TikTok live.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

The aliens are gonna pick me to go back to the back with them.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Okay, you really, really need to watch Independence Day. Because you've never seen this movie. Never. And this exact situation happens where the aliens show up, everyone brings out their little signs saying, Aliens, take me, take me.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

And they really have signs?

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Yes. You know, welcome to Earth, let's party. Uh, all these, you know, supposedly benevolent signs. And then they're gathered on top of a roof illegally. And then uh because the alien, the ship is parked right overhead.

SPEAKER_03 12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

And then it just shoots a big old laser down and kills everybody and blows up half the city.

SPEAKER_03 12:07

Well, I think we should do an episode on that for for July 4th this year.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:12

But I I think here's what I think.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Why would why would they be friendly if they came here? What could they possibly gain from our What if they're weaker?

SPEAKER_03 12:22

What if aliens are actually tiny little cat-sized beings? And what if they're weaker than us and they are out of water or some kind of resource that they need, and they know that maybe their technology is greater, but the second that they step out of their spaceships, they're little tiny fluffs, and we could stomp on them. Then they need to be nice.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Okay, sure. But why would they just get out of their spaceships? Well, if they have the technology to get here, they certainly have the technology to destroy our society.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Maybe not. Maybe it's polite in their custom to ask. Okay. We don't know anything. We don't we know nothing.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

We know that they look like cylinders that joust.

SPEAKER_03 13:01

I think, Alan, that those are the ships. Those are their ships, those aren't them. They're not free-floating.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Of course not.

SPEAKER_03 13:08

Yeah. So of course we know, yeah, cylinders and knocking into each other for sure.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Yeah, I mean, that's terrifying.

SPEAKER_03 13:15

Yeah, that's terrifying. Road raid.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

What what are our fighter jets going to possibly do against a cylinder that can joust?

SPEAKER_03 13:25

So maybe if they are limited in this capacity, maybe that's why they come to Earth friendly.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

No, I'm tell I'm telling you, like one bonk from the cylinder and uh in a fighter jet is is gonna go right down. It cannot get bonked.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

Okay, let's go back to Nuremberg. It is so rare to have this source that was printed so close to the date of the event that it adds a lot of legitimacy to the account. The accompanying woodcut, which again we will post illustration, is what has fascinated modern audiences most. And Alan and I will show you this. So, Alan, take a gander. Here is the woodcut, the illustration from the time. You describe that to the people.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Okay. This looks like a bunch of three-dimensional geometric shapes, but almost like out-of-building materials, like uh columns and beams, and they're all in the sky, and there's all these orbs that could possibly be explosions, and there's this giant spear-looking mothership thing, which is kind of badass. But I'm immediately skeptical about the accuracy of this rendition because the sun has a baby face, and the sun is the one constant. Like we have the sun today, and it does not have a baby face.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

You can't get in the way of medieval art, okay?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Okay, but that's what I'm saying. Like they're taking artistic liberties heavily.

SPEAKER_03 14:51

I mean, that's just how the sun is often depicted. But but besides all that, I get your point. Besides all that, we also have all of these first-hand accounts that this happened, right? So we know that this happened. We know that people believe this happened, at least.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 15:07

So to describe the picture a little bit, in addition to what Alan said, it depicts a chaotic sky filled with floating orbs, crosses, rods, and enormous cylindrical objects releasing smaller spheres into the air. To modern UFO experts, the image looks uncannily similar to descriptions of spacecraft, drones, or unidentified aerial phenomena. Some researchers have even described the scene as resembling a mothership, just exactly as Alan said. However, historians and scientists have proposed different explanations. Some believe that the event may have been an atmospheric phenomenon caused by something called sun dogs, or parphilia, optical effects caused by sunlight refracting through ice crystals in the atmosphere. Under certain conditions, these effects can create glowing shapes, halos, crosses, and bright lights around the sun. Combined with panic, religious fear, and the symbolic imagination of the time, an unusual atmospheric display may have evolved into a story of a war in the heavens. Still, the imagery remains deeply unsettling, even viewed skeptically.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

I'd say it is indeed viewed skeptically.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

But that's not the only medieval historic event that we need to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Another

Basel 1566 And Black Spheres

SPEAKER_03 16:22

similar event allegedly occurred just a few years later in 1566 over Basel, Switzerland. Reports described black spheres moving rapidly through the sky and appearing again to fight one another before disappearing. Let's read a first hand source. Again, this is an interpreted broadsheet from the time. Quote It happened in 1566 three times, on 27 and 28 of July, and on August 7. Against the sunrise and sunset, we saw strange shapes in the sky above Basil. During the year 1566, on the 27th of July, after the sun had shone warm on the clear, bright skies, and then around 9 p.m. it suddenly took a different shape and color. First, the sun lost all of its radiance and luster, and it was no bigger than the full moon.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Help, help, the sun's lost its luster.

SPEAKER_03 17:13

And finally it seemed to weep tears of blood, and the air beneath went dark. Then he, I think the sun, was seen by all of the people of the city in countryside. In much the same way also the moon, which has already been almost full and has shone through the night, assuming an almost blood red color in the sky. The next day, Sunday, the sun rose at about six o'clock and slept with the same appearance it had when it was lying before. He hit the houses, streets, and around as if everything was blood red and fiery. At the dawn of August 7, we saw large black spheres coming and going with great speed and precision before the sun and chattered as if they led a fight. Many of them were fiery red and soon crumbled and then extinguished. So once again, the event was interpreted as a divine warning, not an extraterrestrial visitation. In the medieval and early modern world, the heavens were believed to reflect spiritual conflict, and unusual celestial events were rarely seen as meaningless accidents. In

Stralsund Sightings And Natural Causes

SPEAKER_03 18:16

1655, there was reported celestial activity over Stralsund, over Switzerland, now Germany. The phenomenon over Stralsund centers around reports of strange aerial objects witnessed above the city and the Baltic Sea during the 17th century. At the time, Stralsund was part of Swedish Pomerania, and accounts of the period describe enormous flying forms moving through the sky in ways people could not explain. Witnesses claimed the objects resembled ships suspended in the air, appearing dark gray or silver in color, sometimes compared to the glow of the rising moon. Several descriptions mentioned dome-shaped tops or broad circular forms that modern readers often compare to flying saucers. According to some reports, multiple objects appeared at once and seemed to engage in aerial combat above the sea, maneuvering across the sky before hovering over the city near St. Nichols Church until evening. Again, this was seen at the time as a supernatural warning or divine omen. In a time when celestial events were often interpreted as messages from God, strange occurrences in the sky carried deep religious significance. Today the Strahland phenomenon is frequently revisited in discussions about historical UFO sightings. So, Alan, do you remember our dancing plague episode?

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Sure do.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

Well, we started that episode by talking about the Encycime meteor, which was a meteor that crashed in medieval Europe, Germany, but now France. And imagine, again, the reaction of people living in medieval Europe to a meteor that streaked across the sky and crashed outside of a small town. So, A, I just want to say that of course there was things in the sky that happened, right? Meteors crashing, that's not aliens, that's something that happens.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

And so there's cylinders, jousting.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

There's tons of different scientific reasons for these things. But I also think there could be something more here. Alan, if you would please pick up your tablet.

Renaissance Art That Looks Like UFOs

SPEAKER_03 20:25

Beyond written accounts, many people point to medieval and renaissance artwork as possible evidence that strange aerial phenomena have fascinated humanity for centuries. Certain paintings and religious images appear to contain objects that modern viewers interpret as UFOs or aliens hidden in plain sight. So if you please scroll to page five. One of the most famous examples is the painting called The Madonna with Saint Giovanni, attributed to the workshop of Domenico Gelandio. In the background of the painting, a small disc-shaped object appears suspended in the sky while a man and his dog stare upward at it. I think that's really important that you see, right, that there's people looking at it because otherwise you might just think it was like a blip, but there's actually people painted into the painting that are interacting with it. So again, to some modern people, the object strongly resembles the stereotypical flying saucer shape associated with UFO sightings. There's also something else going on in the sky on the other side of the picture, which looks like a sun, maybe, and then like dots of something coming out of it. What's your interpretation, Alan?

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Uh I mean, it's it's a painting. So they could they could literally just paint Godzilla in the background and that would be fine too. You know, it's not like uh it requires a certain level of realism to be painted.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

Yeah, but how but like you know, this here's my counterpoint to that.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Aliens, broadly, have sort of come have sort of come into human consciousness in the way that's the human zeitgeist. Right. Through science fiction in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

But this predates science fiction, right? So what is it that you think that is painted in that painting? That's cas is it an I mean it looks like when you're looking at it, it looks like a submarine in the sky, a blimp in the sky.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

They had kites.

SPEAKER_03 22:18

You think it's a kite?

SPEAKER_01 22:19

It why could it not be a kite?

SPEAKER_03 22:21

I'm just asking why you think it's a kite. I don't see any strings.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

I mean, you wouldn't when you see a kite flying in the distance, like a nice big kite, you don't see the string.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Well, I also think it would be interesting to put something like a kite into this religious painting.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Sure. I think it's even more interesting to put a UFO in it.

SPEAKER_03 22:43

No. No, because the whole point of what I'm making, the whole point I'm trying to make here is that is that maybe some of the religious things that we, you know, as people historically have claimed to like gods and angels or whatever coming down from the sky was was aliens.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:02

Was aliens, right? That could be true. Sure, yeah. Okay. Let's go on to the next example.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

Another commonly discussed artwork is the Annunciation with Saint Emidaeus by Carlo Crivelli. In the painting, a beam of light descends from the sky through a circular opening in the clouds towards the Virgin Mary. While the imagery is intended to symbolize divine conception and heavily and heavenly intervention, again, modern UFO theorists often interpret the glowing object as a spacecraft projecting energy downwards. You looking at what I'm looking at here, Alan?

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Yeah, you know what it also looks like?

SPEAKER_03 23:39

Lightning?

SPEAKER_01 23:40

A hole. A hole in the sky.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Where would that go? I don't know, heaven.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

Or it could be a wormhole. Looks a little bit like a wormhole to me.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

It does. But if they believe that heaven was in the sky, but they couldn't see it, you know a good way to get there? Make a hole.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

Okay, let me ask you this, Alan. Because you're someone.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Let me let me not I I am someone.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

Do you believe in heaven? As as it is depicted in these, you know, in general paintings? Okay, do you believe in aliens? We talked about this. So why why do you think it's likely that people at the time like what's the difference? You know what I mean? Like, what's really the difference? If they were having things that they claimed, as if you're someone who doesn't believe in it either way, okay, so people in the medieval times claim to, you know, have angels come down, God came down, all this stuff's coming in and out of the heavens. You don't believe in it either way. So why do you believe that this painting is portraying something religious versus something alien? You don't know.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Because everything they painted was religious.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

Yeah, but they don't know the difference. That's the point. What if it's one and the same? What if it wasn't God that came down? It was an alien.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Sh you got me.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

Alright. I think I'm making good points here. Alright, let's scroll down here, Alan, to page seven. The Miracle of Snow by Mazzolino de Panicale, circa 1428 to 1432. The Florentine painter created this altarpiece to commemorate the founding of the Roman Basilica Santa Maria Maggiore. According to legend, the Virgin Mary marked the church's future location by causing snow to fall atop the Esquiline Hill during the height of summer in 1352, Common Era, a miraculous event depicted in this painting. To modern eyes, however, again, it looks like it doesn't look like snow at all. It looks like either clouds, maybe, or a fleet of uh circular silver flying objects.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

I think uh I'm gonna lead heavily towards someone's pretty bad at drawing clouds.

SPEAKER_03 25:49

But he's pretty good at drawing everything else, no? Yeah. I mean, he has a style.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

He does. I mean, there is perspective, there's a vanishing point. I'll give him that.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

But uh yeah, maybe clouds aren't really his specialty. Kind of like how a lot of people like to hide the hands and feet.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

Okay, so I get that one, right? That one is um up for debate. This next one, though, page eight.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

Another example. Livre des Bons Mures, circa 1430, by Jacques Legrand. In this piece of art, Lady Fortune is depicted with her wheel, and she is surrounded by a mob of male petitioners. But what's strange is the massive golden orb that is hovering over the scene in the painting, and a bunch of what looks like sort of lights in the sky. It looks like it's from frickin'. It looks like the snitch.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Oh, it looks just like the holy hand grenade.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

What's the holy hand grenade?

SPEAKER_01 26:43

How happy you've gotta watch Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

I've seen it a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

The fact that you immediately didn't peg this as being the holy hand grenade is troublesome. Okay, tell us what it is though, for anybody else, maybe who has No, because everyone already knows, and you so you need to watch it.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

So that's so okay, but that's movie still came out after this painting. So what's your what's your interpretation of this?

SPEAKER_01 27:06

I I I don't know. Someone just drew a thing.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

It's ornate. It's the thing is it's huge, and there's people again, ref like there's a guy on the hill that's like looking at it.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Yeah, but you can't say it's huge.

SPEAKER_03 27:16

Because the people are huge.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Because yeah, the per perspective does not exist. The people behind the mountains would theoretically be giants. Yep, tall what, twice the size of the mountain?

SPEAKER_03 27:30

Which is another topic for another day. But but the thing about the orb is that it's very it's ornate, right? It's clearly not like the sun because it's it looks like it has things carved into it.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Right, but again, this is not a photograph. They're just like, hey, you know this orb thing that's like uh been sitting on my desk? I'm just gonna paint it, put it right here.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

I'm but that's not the style of these paintings.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

I'm gonna make a happy little orb.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

Yeah, but these these it's not the style of these paintings at the time.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

The fuck is the style? They don't know.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

They're they're creating these like religious paintings, and like some of these are in chapels and things like that. Like they're not just throwing in their desk toys for shits and giggles.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

I I think that maybe that was that that could have been the top to a uh a scepter, and when it got hit with light, the uh light would refract would uh reflect onto the wall in interesting ways. Maybe that's the little speckles that we see everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 28:24

Yeah, I definitely think the speckles feel like they are some kind of like reflection coming off of the thing, the orb.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

I mean they do look uh like accurate angels.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

You mean biblically accurate angels?

SPEAKER_01 28:38

No, I mean accurate for Evangelian.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

What is that? That's uh uh anime? It is. Tell us about angels in that.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Well, the the if you look at the angels, that's that's what they look like.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Like little kind of like they're they're huge. I also have to mention a painting called The Baptism of Christ from 1710 by Art de Gelder. De Gelder was one of Rembrandt's final pupils. This is perhaps my favorite. It because it I like it so much because it feels like just pure science fiction. Like if somebody said that this came out in the 50s, I would be like, sure, but this came out in the 1700s. What's your interpretation of this one, Mr. Skeptical?

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Again, we have a circular looking thing in the sky and stuff coming down from said circle to a holy something going on. So once again, this is a portal to heaven.

SPEAKER_03 29:29

I think what I'm trying to say earlier, and I got too emotional, is that you gotta slow your roll. If I know, I'm working on it. If one believes in heaven and God, and no judgment, right? But if one believes in all those things in hell and angels, what's the difference between believing in aliens? Doesn't it feel equally as unprovable, equally as unknowable?

SPEAKER_01 29:57

I understand what you're saying.

SPEAKER_03 29:59

Okay, and so when you see a painting like this, to me, I'm like, oh, maybe there is a small chance, but a chance, as someone who doesn't necessarily believe everything in the Bible as fact, things became coded in religious subtext because of politics and Catholicism, taking over paganism and all this stuff that happened, where really it was just like the aliens came looking for water in medieval times, and everyone, what if that's the the origin event that caused Christianity to become a thing? What if? Like, what if we don't know? I personally believe that aliens exist in this world. I don't claim to know much about them because I think similar to the supernatural or anything else, religion and all this stuff, we don't know what we don't know. And there's no way to know, and everyone's just guessing. So could it be that some some being, some interdimensional being or some being from another planet came in medieval times or before that and visited Earth, and that's what caused all these stories of Christianity. Could it be?

SPEAKER_01 31:07

It certainly could be.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Thank you. That's all I wanted to hear. That's all I wanted to hear.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

That said, no, it just as plausibly could be an entire civilization that is incredibly fascinated with kites.

SPEAKER_03 31:27

Could be. It could be. And you think that that caused Christianity?

unknown 31:31

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

There's no um writings about kites.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

They're too busy flying them.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

What if it was a secret like cult of kite fliers that people didn't know about and they would make these kites and like the strings would be hidden and big people would be like, whoa, there's like alien spaceships fighting, but really it was just like these secret cultists that were using kites to like trick people.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

See, what Abby can't tell is as soon as she mentioned the secret society of kites, multiple red sniper dots appeared on her.

Angels Ezekiel And Tech Imagery

SPEAKER_03 32:02

Perhaps the strangest examples come from medieval depictions of angels and celestial beings. Many religious artworks portray glowing disks, fiery wheels, floating spheres, and bizarre mechanical-looking structures surrounding divine figures. Alan, you know a lot about um how you know biblical angels actually actually look from your video games and such, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Uh yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

Can you describe them to us a little bit? Give us an example or two?

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Uh no, for you're not really getting many biblically accurate angels in video games because they're mostly formless. Uh, but it's a lot of eyes, a lot of wings, a lot of circles.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

So yeah, again, it's not humanoid at all.

SPEAKER_03 32:51

I'm hearing circles could be globes, could be spheres, right? This this just in. So the imagery was often inspired by biblical visions, particularly the book of Ezekiel, which famously describes wheels within wheels descending from the heavens in fire and light. To medieval artists, these images represented the terrifying incomprehensibility of the divine. To modern viewers, they resemble depictions of advanced technology. Alan, if you will join me on page 10.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Right there with you.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

A good example of this is Saint Augustine and the Devil, a painting from a painting from 1475 by Michael Patcher. I mean, that is one scary looking devil. That's one alienoid-looking devil.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

I think he would be teased really bad at school.

SPEAKER_03 33:46

Will you give the the listeners a visual uh a visual rundown?

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Sure. So he's your yeah, uh a bipedal humanoid with wings, uh, gray skin, very gaunt features. Uh the head has well, you can only see one side of his face, but uh presumably he has four eyes and um tusks, but with that would insinuate an underbite, but he somehow has an exent exacerbated overbite. Two horns that poke out to the side, I don't know, like their antennas. He's got an earring, maybe? It's hard to tell. Um, but really all of that is secondary to the ass face because he's got a big face right on his ass that has a nose for this tail. Um, I mean, honestly, the the whole rest of the painting doesn't matter because that's the only thing anyone's ever gonna look at.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

Well, I think his spine is sort of suction cuppy and his legs feel like he just got back from cupping. His legs feel like goats' legs, like he has hooves.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Oh, he does he does have hooves. He does have a cloven hoof.

SPEAKER_03 34:53

A cloven hoof, yeah, which makes him not kosher.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Uh no, actually, um animal must have a cloven hoof to be kosher, but there's many other factors that are required.

SPEAKER_03 35:04

I see.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

I d he he would not be kosher.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Presumably.

SPEAKER_03 35:08

Presumably.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Mostly because of, you know, he's just I mean, just look at him. His ass, his face ass. Well, yeah, mostly because of the ass face.

What Medieval UFOs Say About Us

SPEAKER_03 35:15

It is important to remember that medieval people did not think in terms of extraterrestrials. Their worldview was deeply religious and symbolic. Strange events in the sky were interpreted through theology, mythology, and superstition rather than through science fiction. A glowing object above a holy figure was meant to represent divinity, not aliens visiting Earth. At the same time, it is easy to understand why these stories continued to captivate modern audiences. There is something deeply eerie about realizing that centuries before modern UFO culture existed, people were already documenting unexplained lights in the sky and creating images that seem strangely familiar today. Whether these events were, again, just phenomena, right? Like scientific phenomena, misunderstood astronomy, truly something religious, or something more alienoid, we will never know. Ultimately, the fascination with medieval UFOs says as much about modern fears and curiosities as it does about the past itself. And I actually think that's a really important point. That us being so fixated on figuring out why these paintings look like they have um and these historic events feel like alien invasions, I think speaks to like our modern fear and interest in understanding UFOs.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

That was a lot of we and ours.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

I'm speaking of the collective humans. I know that you're not part of that. You're the minority. Medieval Europe saw omens and angels where modern audiences see aliens and spacecraft. Yet the central feeling remains unchanged across centuries. Human beings looking upward into the night sky, witnessing something they cannot explain, and trying desperately to give shape to the mystery hovering above them. Some modern UFO theorists have drawn connections between biblical stories and accounts of alien encounters, arguing that ancient people may have interpreted advanced technology as divine phenomena. In the end, medieval UFO interpretations and unexplained celestial events tell us less about aliens, right, and more about how people in the past understood the sky. Events like the 1561 Nuremberg phenomenon, or reported sightings over Stralsund, were recorded in a world where unusual lights or shapes in the sky were interpreted as signs or warnings from God. This is, again, very similar because the reason why we talked about the meteor at the beginning of the dancing plague episode was because people thought that that meteor was a warning from God that they were living in sin. And so that was like the tense climate, right, that people were living in at the time. When viewed today, these accounts can look similar to UFO descriptions. Overall, the overlap between medieval celestial reports and modern UFO ideas highlights a consistent pattern. Humans have always tried to explain unexplainable things, is my very high level, because this could go on for hours. My very high level take an introduction slowly easing us in to the intersection of medieval artwork and UFOs.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Wait, this is a big multi-part series?

SPEAKER_03 38:23

No, it's not. But I'm just saying I could, if I wanted to, keep going. Yep. There's more to say. Yeah, I'm sure there is.

Where To Find The Images

SPEAKER_03 38:30

And don't forget, we're going to post um everywhere that we can post all the pictures so that you can easily in order, so that you can easily kind of flip through.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

I think you should do a paint and sip where you paint medieval artwork with aliens.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

Oh, that'd be so fun. Yep. Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

I'm full of great ideas.

SPEAKER_03 38:46

Maybe in the nice weather, we do a little Central Park meetup and we BYO paints.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Well, you're gonna have to go somewhere where there's aliens.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

Aliens are everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

So what where's where's the most extraterrestrial place that you can think of?

SPEAKER_03 39:00

Rosalind. Actually, uh Crest Creststone uh what's that place in Colorado? Creststone, Colorado. That might be it. Somewhere out west. The the Skywalker Ranch.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Oh, Skinwalker Ranch.

SPEAKER_03 39:15

Skinwalker Ranch, yeah. Well, what what place do you most heavily associate with aliens? Remember the time I saw an alien in Central Park? Actually, Central Park might be a good spot for it. You were with me.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 39:26

Do you remember?

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Yep. I sorry. I remember that you saw an alien. A UFO. Claimed to see an alien. And I said, What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_03 39:36

A UFO. It wasn't an alien floating in the sky. And I even sent a voice note to Andy to document it.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 39:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

And that was received very well.

SPEAKER_03 39:44

It was. So a supportive friend.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

Oh yeah. As always, thank you so much for listening, Alan. Thank you for putting up with it. Anytime. Give you a break next week. Stay spooky. Stay well. We'll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye.